Joseph Cradall's bagua publications

[dedalus]

I've asked elsewhere, but I just wanted to draw attention to this question again. Has anyone read any of Joseph Crandall's bagua translations? If so - what did you think?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Hahaha, ask Razak or Black Taoist about that :D

[dedalus]

Hmmm, yes, well...

I am familiar with the Blacktaoist's opinion, but I haven't heard anything about the actual content of the translations, only Crandall's qulaifications and translation style. Some might call that an ad hominem attack... :rolleyes:

;)

[maoshan]

As far as the content is concerned, for those that don't know it's alright, but for those in the know, they see what's wrong or missing.

Peace
Maoshan

[dedalus]

Your profile shows quite some experience in bagua! Just to clarify, though, are all of Crandall's translations covered by your criticism, or have you only read some of them?

I was most interested in the notes on the broadsword, deer horn knives and Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua (that last one especially).

Cheers for the input :)

[Rockwood]

I think Maoshan is right on the money. Most of the translations on the market right now are only the first primitive steps toward understanding the intricacies of internal martial arts training. For people that know, books don't mean much, its making the art your own that counts. This stuff is deep! At the same time, I applaud everyone who is doing translations, even the bad ones because every little bit helps. I imagine that twenty years from now we will have translations of a way higher caliber, our understanding of the issues has only just begun. Really we don't have people here in the US that are at the high enough level of practice to understand these books much less translate them. On the other hand, every translation is a tiny step forward, it will be overwritten in the future by better work, but for now its all we have! Most of all we have to practice and train dilligently so that we are able to glean what we can from the written transmissions.

-Jessˇ

[wujidude]

He may also have an ax to grind, since he perceives that his teacher's teacher was ripped off when Crandall translated his book on the Cao branch of Yin Fu baguazhang. Add to that that he can't offer specific criticisms of the content of Crandall's translations . . .

As far as the translation of Jiang Rongqiao's book on baguazhang goes, the Crandall translation is a decent start. I'd suggest that a better translation was done by Andrea Falk, who speaks fluent Mandarin and trained in China for a number of years (including learning Jiang Rongqiao's forms from a direct student of Jiang). She's at www.thewushucentre.com (http://www.thewushucentre.com).

From what my teachers have said, Crandall does all right with the straightforward instructions on movement, stepping, etc. On the more abstruse matters, like the philosophical sections of Sun Lutang's baguazhang and taijiquan books, it's anyone's guess how to translate it (since even Chinese speakers get fogged up over what Sun meant).

Cheers.

[This message was edited by wujidude on 10-03-01 at 02:33 PM.]

[maoshan]

Wujidude

I don’t need to speak Chinese to know what I know. Now to cases.
Why don’t you read you stupid M.F.er or is it that you just failed your comprehension test in school and never improved.
1st. Zhang lie and My sifu Chen Xiao Ping are classmates Just like The Black Taoist and I are classmates (it’s sad that I have to do it like this) they both learned from Chi Shi Xin who had already passed when they decided to write the book.
2nd. Zhang lie simply posed for the pictures and wrote the Addenda. My sifu Chen Xiao Ping is the is the one who wrote the info in the book. If you look on the 1st page which is the forward, at the bottom you can see his name clear as day.
As for the translation, He translated it in it’s most elementary form
In particular the Nei Gong in the back. Much was left out as to How to perform the sets. If you don’t practice right what’s the point, and if you don’t know the correct method your just wasting time.
This is in particular true of those that don’t have a teacher near them and have no choice but to learn from a books and videos.
This I know to be true because of all the e-mail I get asking what to do in a teachers absence.
It’s the sudilties that make the difference between true Kung fu and a dance.
As for quality translations look at Tim Cartmell’s Sun Lu tang, and Dan Millers, Li Zi Ming translations these are good examples
Of good work.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate anything out on Bagua Our problem is with Crandall and how he did what he did.
You and others have been trying to discredit us for some time now
You can’t. I live Bagua. I’m not some hobbyist in for the fade. I will take it to the grave. You on the other hand are a ghost. Hiding behind your computer. I have no respect for you Wujidude. You’re a rabble rouser. When we came on this chat line it was with the intension of exchanging ideas. We found out that few knew what they were talking about. Your one of them. You need to chill and do some real research in to the topic. And the only way your going to catch up too me is to kill me and then study 20yrs just to reach my level. This not a Bragg it’s just plain truth.
Our problem with Crandall is personal and I suggest you mind yours. I didn’t even responded in the negative when I first posted in this thread but you had to bring it up. People like you man need to get a life.


Maoshan

[dedalus]

Wujidude, thanks a lot for that link! I'm usually suspicious of wushu practitioners, but the excerpts the translator has posted speak for themselves.

Quite aside from martial arts, Andrea Falk is brilliant photographer!

[wujidude]

Ben, as usual you hide your small pearls of insights in a mountain of vituperative, semi-intelligible attempts at intimidation. My only point is that, if you don't know Chinese, you aren't very qualified to pass on the quality or accuracy of Crandall's translations. Although I'm studying Mandarin, I'm not yet at the point where I'm particularly qualified, either. That's why I passed on the views of my teachers, two native Chinese and one American fluent in modern and classical Mandarin, who all have extensive backgrounds training and teaching in the martial arts.

Books are no substitute for a good teacher and diligent practice with regular correction. Those who seek such a substitute in books or even videos will reap the bitterness of their foolishness when it comes time to use their art. On the other hand, books can give an idea of an art's basic practices and the flavor of its techniques.

In my conversations with him, Crandall has always acknowledged the limitations of his abilities as translator. He wants others better qualified to render more polished and insightful versions. But no one is right now. I think he deserves credit for bringing these books, even in an elementary form, to martial arts students who are limited to English. I for one have gained much appreciation for the depth and variety of baguazhang styles from Crandall's translations.

As for your dispute with Crandall being personal--it ceased to be personal when you began slandering him publicly on this forum and Jarek Szymanski's discussion board, in the interest of marketing Chen Xiao Ping.

Why don't you guys stop whining and put together a more credible translation of Chen's and Zhang's book, expanding it with whatever additional materials your teacher believes would be useful. I'd love to see the Cao branch of Yin Fu's lineage become better-known and taught here in North America. My teacher from Beijing said that your lineage's teachings have among the most coherent transmission of real martial skills of any baguazhang school, not just Yin Fu's.

Until people meet and connect in person, Ben, we're all just "ghosts" (as you put it) on this forum. Calling me a "rabble rouser" would be about the sweetest thing you've called anyone on this board. Given your past posts, I think it would be accurate to call you one as well. I hope it helps your group sell its videos. Oh . . . David Ross would be a fellow "rabble rouser" too, wouldn't he?

I'll leave this thread to you and your ad hominem clucking.

Cheers.

[Water Dragon]

When I first got involved in CMA (1994) I bought a lot of Yang Jwing Ming's books (I have about 8) They opened my eyes to a lot of stuff. After training for about 2 years, the books seemed like crap. They looked totally unrealistic to me.

Now, 7 years after I bought these books, I'm looking at them again. This time I "have" a little Gong Fu and understand principle and strategy. Know what? Those Chin Na books ain't too shabby. If you have the principles and the body skills down, Yang's got some good stuff. Real good stuff.

He just doesn't show you too much. Maybe we're supposed to figure out the body skills ourselves? Maybe these books are written like a scroll? Any thoughts?

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[Crimson Phoenix]

From what I know, Dr Yang never denied that he doesn't reveal 100% in his books and you have to go to his seminars to get the few percents you didn't get in the book...some will say it's mercantile, he himself says that it's very modern to think we can get everything by just paying and that when you pay it is due...
However, having been to some of his qinna seminars, all I have to say is that I have always been marveled by his disponibility and skills...

Speaking of which, Dedalus, you have the translation of Jiang's 36 songs in the YMAA Emei Bagua book...if you can read French, I can also point to you a book written by my sifu who's a direct student of Jiang's...

[blacktaoist]

I have no beef wirth Crandall, if i did had beef with him he know it! I tell people truth,no lying unlike some of the people on kung fu on line. I have been saying this **** for a very long time, if people don't like with i say, all they have to do is come see me! i'm not hiding, my profile is open to all eyes, i don't just talk alot of bull****, not conforming to fact or truth. And that truth is Mr.joseph Crandall didn't get permission to sell or published Zhang Lie book. But you guys on kung fu on line, love to talk about Martial Morality. Man you guys are a "joke" Now i have no beef with you Wujidude, but if you going to talk about this matter, your reply should be conforming to fact or truth. I can careless is joseph crandall translate 1000 more books, his books are all basic knowledge good for new students to develop some knowledge.(no real contents) ALso i don't have to do any advertising of my sifu by talking about joseph crandall,my sifu is his own man and can talk for himself, i talk about this matter out of respect and loyaity for my sifu, not just to make money or get new students, Mr. crandall know what he did, and if people ask me about the matter i tell them. Like i said be fore i'm not hiding am very easy to find. I'm not on that humble philosophy bull****, as people up here are about to find out! bottom line Wujidude, Mr. joseph crandall should have show my sifu respect(zun jing) that is the only beef i have with the man. other then that he is alright in my book. peace-blacktaoist

[razakdigital]

Wujidude,

I figured after reading this post I needed to add my witness account of this situation and how it begin. I have personally no issue with Crandell's translation of books. It is good that someone does the work and to enlighten us all as practitioners. I'm not an authorithy figure between Sifu Crandel, Sifu Bell, Sifu Li(Ping's brother)Sifu Hill, and Sifu Ping. I'm just a student trying to be a better practitioner.

What I can offer to everyone is my account of the start of this issue.

Chen found out by accident that his brother book was translated and called Novell personally. Then we meet at Chen Xiao Ping's house.
I was in Chen Xiao Ping's house with Sifu Bell, Sifu Sweeney, Sifu Bey when Chen look at me and angryily wanted me to find out from Crandell why would he do such a translation without permission. (why me? Because I'm the computer person of the crew - wasn't my idea) Sifu Ping was very disturb about it and had the orginal book in his hand to show proof. I saw it with my own eyes. I emailed Crandell and receive no response.

Now if you met Ping and break bread with him and see his kind nature you would understand Maoshan and TBT's support of their Sifu. He is a good guy that is honest and love's the art. With his and Novell's help I was able to visit Beijing, China which is a Pa Kua Chang dream.

Sometimes we have to not get angry at the messenger for the message.

Again, I wanted to post the real deal on how this situation went down in a simple and clear manner.

[Water Dragon]

As usual, Bobby D. shows good judgement.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[razakdigital]

Sometimes we get emotional when we write and read things. I really wanted to stay clear of this topic because I get nothing out of the situation either way. I know who I'm learning my Yin Fu Cao Style from so I'm not worried about the lineage I'm learning from. I just wanted to express the truth.

[Water Dragon]

And you still owe me a visit :cool:

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[dedalus]

I'm interested in that book considering that your sifu learnt directly from Jiang, but unfortunately I couldn't rely on my French ability to understand a book that is bound to be rich with nuance and metaphor. Perhaps someone will get around to an English translation of *that* one day?

I also second the encouragement for BT, Maoshan RTMB and other Cao stylists to bring more info to the public - it would be great to learn more of the teachings of your style if you (or somebody else in the know) could render them in a readilly accessible and comprehensive book or some such... in fact, I was under the impression that such projects may already be underway...?