shuai-jiao vrs striker vid

[Black Jack II]

Not sure of the guy in blacks system. But he is a striker that much is obvious.

The shaui-jiao cat is ripping up on the striker but what are the rules for this match. It looks to be from the 1970's.

Is this some form of tricked up one-sparring format but with full contact throws?

Why no prolonged standup contact once in the clinch?

Why no grappling once on the ground?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuTS2QWWrR4

[YouKnowWho]

The guy in black was a Bagua guy from Korea. No head contact in that tournament. 3 seconds clinching rule was applied. If you cannot throw your opponent in 3 seconds then the referee will stop the fight and start all over again. No ground fight in 70th. I don't believe the word BJJ or MMA were even exist back in the 70th.

The same tournament after that year did allow head contact. There were 17 guys sent to hostiple in that tournament. During the 3rd and 4th place fight, most of the fighters gave up because it was not worthy to get hurt just for 3rd or 4th places trophies.

[Black Jack II]

Well, with those rules, it's not hard to see why the more wrestling based style had a even more severe advantage.

Thanks for the info.

[SifuAbel]

In a way you are right. People in the early UFCs couldn't seem to shake their own sport rule paradigm.

The boxer waited for a clinch separation that never came. etc etc

[YouKnowWho]

At 2.54 the guy in yellow had a "head lock" on the guy in black when he thrown him. They both went don to the ground. If you were the guy in black and your head got locked by your opponent, how will you be able to apply your "ground fight" skill if the guy in yellow didn't release his "head lock"?

Should you get a lock and then go down to the ground, or go down to the ground and then look for a lock. Which method will be to your advantage?

[Knifefighter]

I don't believe the word BJJ or MMA were even exist back in the 70th.
LOL... BJJ and MMA have been going on in Brazil since the 40's.

[Black Jack II]

There was MMA in the 70's. It was just a whole heck of a lot more underground.

Vale Tudo was one such venue or Japenese shootfighting. Hell, you can go back even ****her to 1887 when the legendary John L. Sullivan fought greco-roman wrestlers in the ring for bragging rights.

[Black Jack II]

The old guy on the right with the wicked handlebar mustach was doing MMA before the Vale Tudo was ever born. It was a common thing in the late 19th century to see bare knuckle boxers vrs savate, vrs greco, vrs even some traditional jujitsu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfcYJpUig0

[Knifefighter]

At 2.54 the guy in yellow had a "head lock" on the guy in black when he thrown him. They both went don to the ground. If you were the guy in black and your head got locked by your opponent, how will you be able to apply your "ground fight" skill if the guy in yellow didn't release his "head lock"?
Considering that a headlock is a very precarious "control" position and one of the first things a clueless person will do when going to the ground, it is one of the first counters taught BJJ. Pretty simple thing to escape for someone with about a month of BJJ training.


Should you get a lock and then go down to the ground, or go down to the ground and then look for a lock. Which method will be to your advantage?
Obviously, if one could get a lock standing and take it to the ground, that would be the ideal. However, since in about 99 out of 100 cases it is impossible to do this against a halfway athletic or skilled opponent, it must be done on the ground where there are more control options.

[YouKnowWho]

Considering that a headlock is a very precarious "control" position and one of the first thing a clueless person will do, it is one of the first counters taught BJJ. Pretty simple thing to escape for someone with about a month of BJJ training.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.


Obviously, if one could get a lock standing and take it to the ground, that would be the ideal. However, since in about 99 out of 100 cases it is impossible to do this against a halfway athletic or skilled opponent, it must be done on the ground where there is more control.
LOL..... Is that the way you understand the "head lock"?

No wonder you have no respect for CMA. :D

[tjmitch]

1- :27 both end up on the ground

2 - :50 clinch broken up - looked like they both would have went down

3 - 1:01 - ill advised jump kick leads to throw- still standing

4 - 1:26 - stays up ( mostly )

5 - 1:46 both end up on the ground

6 - 2:22 - stays standing. ( nice one )

7 - 2:54 - both end up on ground

8 - 3:43 both end up on ground

9 - 5:15 - both on ground, but not engaged, so I will say this one doesn't count either way.



So out of 9 throws, 4 end up with them both on the ground, 1 clinch got broken up but it looked like they both were going down, 2 'clean' throws, 2 where he kind of stayed standing, but not really.



If I am the thrower..... of course I would like to stay standing, or if not land on top of my opponent ( hopefully with my full weight ) or as pointed out by you know who, already with him in some sort of lock.

But if I am the throwee, I would hate to realize at that point I had no idea what to do. Throw me with a head lock and when we hit the ground I know EXACTLY how to get out of it, and how to submit you from the escape. And it isnt from kung fu. It is BJJ 101.

[Knifefighter]

I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Really? Why is that?



LOL..... Is that the way you understand the "head lock"?
Huh?
Was your original question about a headlock like was shown on that video, or were you talking about joint locks such as knee bars or heel hooks?

[Knifefighter]

So out of 9 throws, 4 end up with them both on the ground, 1 clinch got broken up but it looked like they both were going down, 2 'clean' throws, 2 where he kind of stayed standing, but not really..

Yeah, and that was even against a pure striker who had no clue about defending throws.

[tjmitch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDWVDQfybgw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9eUwEumi7c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6r1jy1rb60


Vale tudo - 1975. Complete no rules, including face raking, hair pulling and finger twisting. I didnt see any biting, but I think if you wanted to you could.

[tjmitch]

And a headlock escape.

[unkokusai]

how will you be able to apply your "ground fight" skill if the guy in yellow didn't release his "head lock"?

You're kidding, right?

[Black Jack II]

how will you be able to apply your "ground fight" skill if the guy in yellow didn't release his "head lock"?

come on...some one say bite....you know its coming...you know you want to;)

[Knifefighter]

Throw me with a head lock and when we hit the ground I know EXACTLY how to get out of it, and how to submit you from the escape. And it isnt from kung fu. It is BJJ 101.

Exactly...

I guess we can add headlocks to the list of things that clueless kung fu people think will save them on the ground.

[tjmitch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoknjuSjgs

Headlock escape in a real fight. ( OK, more of a front head lock / halfassed guillotine )

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoknjuSjgs

Headlock escape in a real fight. ( OK, more of a front head lock / halfassed guillotine )

You always know you are going to have an easy fight when the guy on the bottom tries to keep holding your head when you are mounted or in side control.

[tjmitch]

"You always know you are going to have an easy fight when the guy on the bottom tries to keep holding your head when you are mounted or in side control.
"

Holding it with both hands.....and squeezing as hard as he can ( and not breathing )

[Knifefighter]

You're kidding, right?

Although Ross says all YKW's posts are actually jokes, I think he really is as clueless as his posts reveal him to be.

[unkokusai]

LOL, meaning...?

[Knifefighter]

Here's an email from one of my training partners:

I recently fought a combat shaou jiao fighter. He got a pretty good throw on me, but didn't know what to do once on the ground. He was pretty inexperienced on the ground, I think, because he held on to my head after the throw. I went into BJJ basics mode and reversed the head lock and took the arm bar. I was slowly extending the arm while waiting for him to tap, but he tried to bite me, so I used combat BJJ on him by quickly hyperextending the elbow several times in a row. He screamed, but I slammed the elbow a few more times because I was pretty pi$$3d that he had bitten me. Last I heard, he was going to need surgery on his elbow.

Gotta go now... I need to get a tetanus shot.

[shuaichiao]

Here's an email from one of my training partners:

I recently fought a combat shaou jiao fighter. He got a pretty good throw on me, but didn't know what to do once on the ground. He was pretty inexperienced on the ground, I think, because he held on to my head after the throw. I went into BJJ basics mode and reversed the head lock and took the arm bar. I was slowly extending the arm while waiting for him to tap, but he tried to bite me, so I used combat BJJ on him by quickly hyperextending the elbow several times in a row. He screamed, but I slammed the elbow a few more times because I was pretty pi$$3d that he had bitten me. Last I heard, he was going to need surgery on his elbow.

Gotta go now... I need to get a tetanus shot.

Here's an e-mail I got from one of my training partners.


I fought a bjj guy last week. He shot in in a desperate atempt to clinch up and ran into the first punch I threw and knocked himself out. He was pretty inexperienced on his feet, I don't think he knew what to do.

[unkokusai]

Here's an e-mail I got from one of my training partners.


I fought a bjj guy last week. He shot in in a desperate atempt to clinch up and ran into the first punch I threw and knocked himself out. He was pretty inexperienced on his feet, I don't think he knew what to do.


Which is it, did he shoot or was he trying to clinch?

[Shaolin Wookie]

KF...Unko....

Took my first BJJ classes. Gettin' schooled in BJJ 101....

Startin' to see what you guys are talking about.

[yenhoi]

I thought combat sc's "groundfight" skill was a knife?

:cool:

[Mr Punch]

LOVE that wee clip of Sullivan! Ever find any more link em will ya BJ?!

And he did wing chun! :D DID YOU SEE those chain punches...?!:rolleyes: Course, couldn't hear what he was saying... prob something like

"And all these little Chinese guys came running up to me punching like hamsters on a wheel... like this... so I knocked em all out..."

;)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

BJJ 101 teaches how to counter a headlock? That's funny since the only BJJ guy that I ever fought, I threw him them made him submit with a chokehold/headlock. The fight lasted less than a minute. I guess they didn't teach that uber-counter at his school. :rolleyes: Though I must admit that I was using Japanese Jujutsu rather than shuai jiao at the time.

[Knifefighter]

BJJ 101 teaches how to counter a headlock? That's funny since the only BJJ guy that I ever found I threw him them made him submit with a chokehold/headlock. The fight lasted less than a minute. I guess they didn't teach that uber-counter at his school. :rolleyes: Though I must admit that I was using Japanese Jujutsu rather than shuai jiao at the time.

BJJ 101 - headlock escapes are part of the basic curriculum, usually taught within the first month.

BTW, how do you choke someone with a headlock.

[Knifefighter]

KF...Unko....

Took my first BJJ classes. Gettin' schooled in BJJ 101....

Startin' to see what you guys are talking about.

Another one recruited to the dark side.

Let us know when you learn headlock escapes.

[unkokusai]

KF...Unko....

Took my first BJJ classes.



Alright! :cool:

[unkokusai]

the only BJJ guy that I ever found I threw him them made him submit with a chokehold/headlock. The fight lasted less than a minute.



That little story reeks of 'untrue.'

[lunghushan]

The guy in black was a Bagua guy from Korea. No head contact in that tournament. 3 seconds clinching rule was applied. If you cannot throw your opponent in 3 seconds then the referee will stop the fight and start all over again. No ground fight in 70th. I don't believe the word BJJ or MMA were even exist back in the 70th.

The same tournament after that year did allow head contact. There were 17 guys sent to hostiple in that tournament. During the 3rd and 4th place fight, most of the fighters gave up because it was not worthy to get hurt just for 3rd or 4th places trophies.

Is there any other footage of these kind of tournaments? Because the fights that do get posted all seem kindof lame. Where is the footage of these fights of people getting hurt and having to go to the hospital we are always hearing about?

[Knifefighter]

That little story reeks of 'untrue.'

Either that or he has a secret headlock choking technique that almost no one except the secret club of deadly combat kung fu fighters has seen before.

[lunghushan]

BJJ 101 teaches how to counter a headlock? That's funny since the only BJJ guy that I ever found I threw him them made him submit with a chokehold/headlock. The fight lasted less than a minute. I guess they didn't teach that uber-counter at his school. :rolleyes: Though I must admit that I was using Japanese Jujutsu rather than shuai jiao at the time.

From matches they have and stuff, it looks like BJJ is just a derivative of judo/jujitsu with some tricky gi leverage stuff. Or at least that's the hypothesis I've been using for why Royce Gracie seems to suck without his gi on.

[LeeCasebolt]

From matches they have and stuff, it looks like BJJ is just a derivative of judo/jujitsu with some tricky gi leverage stuff. Or at least that's the hypothesis I've been using for why Royce Gracie seems to suck without his gi on.

BJJ is a judo derivative with an emphasis on groundwork.

Royce seems to suck without his gi on because Matt Hughes is a zillion times better than the guys Royce fought in UFC 1-5.

[lunghushan]

BJJ is a judo derivative with an emphasis on groundwork.

Royce seems to suck without his gi on because Matt Hughes is a zillion times better than the guys Royce fought in UFC 1-5.

I dunno ... I was analyzing his earlier fights. It looks like he relied on tricky gi maneuvers to win a lot of them. It really seems like he's lost without his gi. Like he would kindof suck people into his gi and tie them up with it and smother their arms with this weird leverage stuff.

I never took BJJ but it looks like at least he is using some tricky gi leverage stuff.

I mean, when I took Judo there were a lot of gi manuevers like chokes and stuff that are required, and a lot of throws are based off of gi holds. It looks like BJJ has raised those to another level.

It just seems like that Royce isn't up on no-gi submission wrestling at the level these modern fighters are.

[Knifefighter]

From matches they have and stuff, it looks like BJJ is just a derivative of judo/jujitsu with some tricky gi leverage stuff. Or at least that's the hypothesis I've been using for why Royce Gracie seems to suck without his gi on.

Royce doesn't suck without the gi. Everyone else at the top levels of MMA knows BJJ now. He can't hang with the top guys because MMA has evolved so much.

[lunghushan]

Royce doesn't suck without the gi. Everyone else at the top levels of MMA knows BJJ now. He can't hang with the top guys because MMA has evolved so much.

Okay, so why can't he hang with the top guys? It isn't just because they know BJJ, because obviously he knows BJJ, right? Is it that they know stuff on top of BJJ? It doesn't appear so ... because they are still using the same type of grappling.

It just seems like they're better at no gi grappling. And they're more muscular. It really seems like gi grappling stuff is a waste of time to work on for MMA matches. Royce really seemed like a master of gi based grappling.

[LeeCasebolt]

I dunno ... I was analyzing his earlier fights. It looks like he relied on tricky gi maneuvers to win a lot of them. It really seems like he's lost without his gi. Like he would kindof suck people into his gi and tie them up with it and smother their arms with this weird leverage stuff.

I never took BJJ but it looks like at least he is using some tricky gi leverage stuff.

I mean, when I took Judo there were a lot of gi manuevers like chokes and stuff that are required, and a lot of throws are based off of gi holds. It looks like BJJ has raised those to another level.

It just seems like that Royce isn't up on no-gi submission wrestling at the level these modern fighters are.


Your assertions are accurate and your conclusion faulty. Royce does use a lot of "tricky gi maneuvers" and he isn't "up on no-gi submission wrestling at the level these modern fighters are". Conclusion - Royce is better with the gi than without, and no longer a top competitor, because the game has passed him by. Still an excellent BJJ technician and tough fighter, just no longer world class.

[LeeCasebolt]

Okay, so why can't he hang with the top guys? It isn't just because they know BJJ, because obviously he knows BJJ, right? Is it that they know stuff on top of BJJ? It doesn't appear so ... because they are still using the same type of grappling.

He can't hang with them because they know everything he knows, plus more things he doesn't know, plus have superior athleticism.



It just seems like they're better at no gi grappling. And they're more muscular. It really seems like gi grappling stuff is a waste of time to work on for MMA matches. Royce really seemed like a master of gi based grappling.

The gi is a waste of time for MMA matches. Good for self-defense, though.

[lunghushan]

Your assertions are accurate and your conclusion faulty. Royce does use a lot of "tricky gi maneuvers" and he isn't "up on no-gi submission wrestling at the level these modern fighters are". Conclusion - Royce is better with the gi than without, and no longer a top competitor, because the game has passed him by. Still an excellent BJJ technician and tough fighter, just no longer world class.

Well they changed the rules. They don't use gis anymore. I bet if you gave him a gi he'd do a lot better. But yeah, he does seem to suck without a gi.

[Charles T Rose]

I learned headlock escapes in like my second BJJ class.
Also grappling is something you have to feel to understand.

[lonewolf]

did anybody see this fight last year between the two of them. gracie choked out pat with a gullatine choke while standing up. no gi and up against the ropes. for all of you that think gracie sucks could you please explain the outcome of that fight to me. and don't say that pat was old because they are both beyond their prime. :cool:

[lunghushan]

did anybody see this fight last year between the two of them. gracie choked out pat with a gullatine choke while standing up. no gi and up against the ropes. for all of you that think gracie sucks could you please explain the outcome of that fight to me. and don't say that pat was old because they are both beyond their prime. :cool:

Ummm ... let's see ... that was Renzo, not Royce.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Either that or he has a secret headlock choking technique that almost no one except the secret club of deadly combat kung fu fighters has seen before.

Since you apparently didn't understand what you read, let me try it again. Here, I will even write it in the closest thing this forum has to crayon so maybe even a newbie can understand. I used a chokelock/vein sealing technique which in my opinion a headlock properly done should be. Also I mentioned that I was using Japanese Jujutsu not "deadly combat kung fu". This happened at a jujutsu school in Maryland during a seminar I was teaching in the late 90's. The instructor who invited me was Mike McGee. One of his students had also studied BJJ from another instructor. The event can be easily substantiated. Though I would hate to shatter your illusion of how deadly BJJ is.
BTW, since I was probably already practicing and teaching Kung Fu and Jujutsu before you had started growing pubic hair, you might want to use your smart-a$$ comments on someone who didn't grow up in the "barefisted anything goes" dojo-storming days. This can also be substantiated by asking anyone who attended my kwoon in Ft. Wayne, Indiana in the late 70's to middle 80's. Just wander around the hood and ask about the skinny white guy who used to teach in the pool hall across from the old Chocolate Bar (now a church). They will know who you are talking about. Though you may want to ask the Vice Lords' (street gang) permission before you wander too far.

[lunghushan]

BTW, since I was probably already practicing and teaching Kung Fu and Jujutsu before you had started growing pubic hair, you might want to use your smart-a$$ comments on someone who didn't grow up in the "barefisted anything goes" dojo-storming days. .

Knifefighter is an old guy too, dude.

[Knifefighter]

I used a chokelock/vein sealing technique which in my opinion a headlock properly done should be.
OK, I'll bite. Maybe we are talking about different definitions. My definition of a "headlock" is holding the opponents head/neck from the side without having an arm in like shown in the image below:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=side+headlock+on+the+ground&btnG=Search

To get a choke from here, you have to have the arm in (i.e. head & arm choke).


Or are you talking about a guillotine choke
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=guillotine+choke&btnG=Search

Or a back choke:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=rear+naked+choke&btnG=Search+Images

Or the brabo choke:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=brabo+choke&spell=1

Or the anaconda:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=anaconda+choke&btnG=Search

If you are on the side, without the arm you can only cut off the arterial blood flow on one side and even that is only a partial constriction. The closest you will come to a choke may be a pain compliance hold and even then, only if you are ungodly strong or your opponent is a clueless wimp.


BTW, since I was probably already practicing and teaching Kung Fu and Jujutsu before you had started growing pubic hair, you might want to use your smart-a$$ comments on someone who didn't grow up in the "barefisted anything goes" dojo-storming days. .
I'm supposed to be impressed because you are an old f@rt?

LOL @ old f@rts who used to fight death matches in gang infested hoods back in the day.

[Black Jack II]

Or it could be a side choke. This pick is standing but either way.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/MCRP3-02Bfig6-6sidechoke.png/250px-MCRP3-02Bfig6-6sidechoke.png

[Knifefighter]

Or it could be a side choke. This pick is standing but either way.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/MCRP3-02Bfig6-6sidechoke.png/250px-MCRP3-02Bfig6-6sidechoke.png

Yeah, that's the standing version (which is very hard to finish and much easier to counter) of the head and arm choke on the ground.

[Black Jack II]

I think he is talking about Dian Mai/Dim Mak but really it sounds like a communcation issue. What's nice nowadays is that you can get pics everywhere on the net to showcase what we are talking about.:D

btw, I love that standing choke.

[Shaolin Wookie]

OK, I'll bite. Maybe we are talking about different definitions. My definition of a "headlock" is holding the opponents head/neck from the side without having an arm in like shown in the image below:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=side+headlock+on+the+ground&btnG=Search

To get a choke from here, you have to have the arm in (i.e. head & arm choke).


Or the anaconda:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=anaconda+choke&btnG=Search

If you are on the side, without the arm you can only cut off the arterial blood flow on one side and even that is only a partial constriction. The closest you will come to a choke may be a pain compliance hold and even then, only if you are ungodly strong or your opponent is a clueless wimp.


I'm supposed to be impressed because you are an old f@rt?

LOL @ old f@rts who used to fight death matches in gang infested hoods back in the day.


KF....regarding that Anaconda choke....

My kung-fu instructor showed us that one (standing) and had us practicing it for weeks. He said it was a great slip and choke maneuver. Only, the way he did it, he stressed it more as a neck breaking technique. He demo'd it on me (lucky me)....and I've never made a sound like I made that time. It was something like: "srgghgghat." And I have to admit....there was so much pressure on my neck, I thought it was going to snap in half. The trick was eliminating the space between the neck and shoulder, and using the inner forearm to "cut" into the side of the neck.

But I don't remember if he called it a neck-break. But it worked for sure.

You heard anything like that?

[Knifefighter]

KF....regarding that Anaconda choke....

My kung-fu instructor showed us that one (standing) and had us practicing it for weeks. He said it was a great slip and choke maneuver. Only, the way he did it, he stressed it more as a neck breaking technique. He demo'd it on me (lucky me)....and I've never made a sound like I made that time. It was something like: "srgghgghat." And I have to admit....there was so much pressure on my neck, I thought it was going to snap in half. The trick was eliminating the space between the neck and shoulder, and using the inner forearm to "cut" into the side of the neck.

But I don't remember if he called it a neck-break. But it worked for sure.

You heard anything like that?

I think you will find that that it doesn't work from standing and must be finished on the ground after rolling underneath.

Keep doing BJJ and you will find that a lot of things that "worked" when you let your instructor do them don't work against resisting opponents who are working against your technique.

You are going to be amazed at all the stuff you used to think was viable that turns out not to be so great.

[Black Jack II]

The standing choke, the anaconda choke, is better when started up and brought down to the ground. Thats how we do it here as well, slip under and in, sink in the choke, but we bring it down using the choke as a head control, towards a kneeling or ground position to better hold the attacker.

If your short its **** near impossible to keep the attacker standing while you are working it.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

KF wrote:
Maybe we are talking about different definitions. My definition of a "headlock" is holding the opponents head/neck from the side without having an arm in like shown in the image below
Perhaps we do have different definitions. None of the examples that you posted show what I am referring to.

If you are on the side, without the arm you can only cut off the arterial blood flow on one side and even that is only a partial constriction.
Only cut off the arterial blood flow?????? I work in the medical field. Cutting off "only" the arterial blood flow can be a very serious matter that can result in death. That is not uber super secret kung fu technique, that is a medical fact.

LOL @ old f@rts who used to fight death matches in gang infested hoods back in the day
Not death matches, I never said that. However, take away your mats and fight on gravel. Take away your judge who can stop the match and add your opponent's homeboys who like to "jump in" to the mix. Take away the rules and show us the supernatural power of BJJ against opponents who are not trying to win a contest, but men who do not want to lose their "rep" and will do anything to win. Then I'll be impressed.

BTW, I have no ax to grind against BJJ. It has proven to be an effective and entertaining tournament style. I just think you hype it way too much here and treat those who disagree with you in a very rude manner. Maybe I am too old school, but I expect those who have been competing for 30 years to have developed a little humility somewhere along the line. ;) I don't question your ability, just your opinionated attitude.

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps we do have different definitions. None of the examples that you posted show what I am referring to.
OK... can you post a link showing what you are talking about or explain the tech?



Only cut off the arterial blood flow??????I work in the medical field. Cutting off "only" the arterial blood flow can be a very serious matter that can result in death. That is not uber super secret kung fu technique, that is a medical fact.

That is what chokes are all about. How else, other than tracheal compression (which have been shown to be more dangerous and take longer to take effect), do you think chokes are applied?



However, take away your mats and fight on gravel. Take away your judge who can stop the match and add your opponent's homeboys who like to "jump in" to the mix. Take away the rules and show us the supernatural power of BJJ against opponents who are not trying to win a contest, but men who do not want to lose their "rep" and will do anything to win. Then I'll be impressed.

Do you think because wrestlers, BJJ, Sambo, Judo, and MMA fighters train on mats that somehow they suddenly lose their effectiveness if a fight happens to be on concrete and more than one person is involved?

Who do you think will be more effective at slamming someone into concrete, the person who spends a big chunk of his time slamming people into mats or the person who doesn't train on mats and rarely throws people hard because doing so would potentially injure the training partners?

Who will be better equiped to land hard on concrete, the guy who gets thrown hard onto mats every time he trains, or the guy who doesn't train on mats and rarely, if ever, gets thrown hard?

Who is going to understand the dynamics of fighting on the ground, the person who trains there on mats at every training session or they person who almost never does because he cannot roll around going full force on hard concrete?

As far as who is going to jump in and ef whom up, that just depends on who happens to have backup at the time of an encounter. What do you think will occur if there happens to be four or five BJJ guys againt two other opponents?


Maybe I am too old school, but I expect those who have been competing for 30 years to have developed a little humility somewhere along the line. I don't question your ability, just your opinionated attitude.

Mea Culpa on that one.

[Akronviper]

Who do you think will be more effective at slamming someone into concrete, the person who spends a big chunk of his time slamming people into mats or the person who doesn't train on mats and rarely throws people hard because doing so would potentially injure the training partners?

Who will be better equiped to land hard on concrete, the guy who gets thrown hard onto mats every time he trains, or the guy who doesn't train on mats and rarely, if ever, gets thrown hard?

My SJ training involves aprox. 4 hours of practicing throws, and aprox. 4 hours of live sparing a week. During both I have seen dislocations, breaks and separations (mostly at the collar bone and shoulder areas.) So its not all theory as you may think.

You do nail it on the head though the more your in a live training mode the better you will be.

A person who practices an art with the only reason of beliving it will work is because their teacher told them it works will be in a world of hurt when they try to use it in a live fight.

[Knifefighter]

My SJ training involves aprox. 4 hours of practicing throws, and aprox. 4 hours of live sparing a week. During both I have seen dislocations, breaks and separations (mostly at the collar bone and shoulder areas.) So its not all theory as you may think.
Dislocations, breaks and separations will occur in any live grappling format. You are absolutely right... if you are sparring, nothing you are doing during sparring is theory.

I notice there is a Shuai-Chiao tourney coming up in April in Ohio.

How about somebody recording and posting these matches so we can have a discussion about how the techniques and principles are being applied in a live, competitive manner?

It would be interesting to see how the various opinions stated in the miscellaneous threads play out in practice.

[SevenStar]

Since you apparently didn't understand what you read, let me try it again. Here, I will even write it in the closest thing this forum has to crayon so maybe even a newbie can understand. I used a chokelock/vein sealing technique which in my opinion a headlock properly done should be. Also I mentioned that I was using Japanese Jujutsu not "deadly combat kung fu". This happened at a jujutsu school in Maryland during a seminar I was teaching in the late 90's. The instructor who invited me was Mike McGee. One of his students had also studied BJJ from another instructor. The event can be easily substantiated. Though I would hate to shatter your illusion of how deadly BJJ is.
BTW, since I was probably already practicing and teaching Kung Fu and Jujutsu before you had started growing pubic hair, you might want to use your smart-a$$ comments on someone who didn't grow up in the "barefisted anything goes" dojo-storming days. This can also be substantiated by asking anyone who attended my kwoon in Ft. Wayne, Indiana in the late 70's to middle 80's. Just wander around the hood and ask about the skinny white guy who used to teach in the pool hall across from the old Chocolate Bar (now a church). They will know who you are talking about. Though you may want to ask the Vice Lords' (street gang) permission before you wander too far.


that sounds like a choke, not a headlock. there is a difference. As for the ft. wayne story, I've got family in nap, hammond and gary, so the next time I head up that way, which may be this spring or summer, I'll stop and ask questions. PM me with some names, if ya want. VLs don't bother me. I have a bigger problem out of GDs and ALKN...

[Akronviper]

I notice there is a Shuai-Chiao tourney coming up in April in Ohio.

How about somebody recording and posting these matches so we can have a discussion about how the techniques and principles are being applied in a live, competitive manner?

It would be interesting to see how the various opinions stated in the miscellaneous threads play out in practice.

I've never gone but I'm considering going this year. If I do so I'll take the video camera. It should be interesting.

[shuaichiao]

Just incase anybody still doubts that throwing someone on their head is the deadliest move in the world

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/2935/segataob9.gif