"sticking body"

[Aeturnal]

i read recently that some wing chun practicioners are working on "sticking body", that would go along with sticking hands and feet. apparently the system was called "integrative wing chun" or somehting to that effect.....im not too familiar with the subject but im assuming it would be an excellent way to deal with ground fighting/wrestling/grappling.....any thoughts on this, or am i totally out there?

[LeeCasebolt]

My only thought is simple amazement at the lengths some people are evidently willing to go to in order to avoid learning how to wrestle. It's got to be easier to learn how to grapple, and then integrate that into your base art, than to come up with a new "sticking" method and adapt that to a situation you don't even understand.

[lunghushan]

My only thought is simple amazement at the lengths some people are evidently willing to go to in order to avoid learning how to wrestle. It's got to be easier to learn how to grapple, and then integrate that into your base art, than to come up with a new "sticking" method and adapt that to a situation you don't even understand.

Most wrestling doesn't seem to work on standup grappling, though. The submission wrestling places I've been all work on ground stuff.

[LeeCasebolt]

Most wrestling doesn't seem to work on standup grappling, though. The submission wrestling places I've been all work on ground stuff.

How do they get to the ground?

[lunghushan]

How do they get to the ground?

They walk to the mat, get on the mat. The entire class is on the mat. They work on various maneuvers, like from chokes or from guard or whatever.

But they don't seem to work much if any standup. Judo does more of that but I've been to a few places that have 'submission wrestling' (no gi) and they don't seem to work any standup grappling.

[lunghushan]

At any rate, to answer the original question, I'd have to say, "probably not." Because ground submissions aren't the same as standing because you can't exactly use your legs usually when you're standing the way people do on the ground.

[Black Jack II]

Most wrestling doesn't seem to work on standup grappling, though. The submission wrestling places I've been all work on ground stuff

Wrong. Wrestling is full of take-down training. Greco-Roman excels in the clinch.

Hmmm lets see, body-lock throws, ****zer throws, duckunders, armdrags, backcasts, collar and elbow work, pummeling drills from the clinch......dude its a ton of usefull stuff.

[lunghushan]

Wrong. Wrestling is full of take-down training. Greco-Roman excels in the clinch.

Hmmm lets see, body-lock throws, ****zer throws, duckunders, armdrags, backcasts, collar and elbow work, pummeling drills from the clinch......dude its a ton of usefull stuff.

Well then find someplace that does because the places I've been sure don't seem to.

[Black Jack II]

What places are that?

You mentioned wrestling but I think you really were in reference to BJJ or Judo.

Western wrestling is often about the takedowns and clinch work as much as it is about the ground positioning, not so much subs, though they can have those to depending on the style.

Freestyle, folk, greco, collar and elbow, scottish backhold, swedish, catch as catch can....what are you speaking about specifically?

[lunghushan]

What places are that?

You mentioned wrestling but I think you really were in reference to BJJ or Judo.

Western wrestling is often about the takedowns and clinch work as much as it is about the ground positioning, not so much subs, though they can have those to depending on the style.

Freestyle, folk, greco, collar and elbow, scottish backhold, swedish, catch as catch can....what are you speaking about specifically?

I'm talking about 'submission wrestling', places like AMC Pankration. They seemed to do mostly work on the ground.

[David Jamieson]

My only thought is simple amazement at the lengths some people are evidently willing to go to in order to avoid learning how to wrestle. It's got to be easier to learn how to grapple, and then integrate that into your base art, than to come up with a new "sticking" method and adapt that to a situation you don't even understand.


lol. too true.

[Black Jack II]

Lung,

This seems to be a very unvaild generalization.

How did you base this judgement? Was it on watching one or two classes? How many schools?

I can't speak for AMC Pankration in specifc as I have never been their, but were you watching the subs class or the Pankration class? Pankration often has greco-roman wrestling in its line-up.

Traditional greco is a excellent standup grappling art and can be nasty as all hell if applied on the street.

[lunghushan]

I can't speak for AMC Pankration in specifc as I have never been their, but were you watching the subs class or the Pankration class? Pankration often has greco-roman wrestling in its line-up.


Submission wrestling, not Pankration. I was talking about SUBMISSION WRESTLING.

When I took wrestling in high school (which I did for 3 years), it was mostly ground submission wrestling. We mostly started from 'mount' or whatever.

[LeeCasebolt]

Submission wrestling, not Pankration. I was talking about SUBMISSION WRESTLING.

When I took wrestling in high school (which I did for 3 years), it was mostly ground submission wrestling. We mostly started from 'mount' or whatever.

It once again becomes apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Black Jack II]

Most wrestling doesn't seem to work on standup grappling, though. The submission wrestling places I've been all work on ground stuff.

You stated most wrestling. When does sub wrestling become most wrestling. I believe there are over 400 native wrestling styles worldwide.


I was talking about SUBMISSION WRESTLING

Ok. But thats not what you said. Also since you know its sub wrestling why would you think it does anything else?



It once again becomes apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Agreed.

[lunghushan]

It once again becomes apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess not. When I took wrestling it was 90% ground and maybe 10% takedowns.

I have to admit wrestling isn't something I was ever that interested in. I only took it more than usual because otherwise I'd have to play badminton. Our classes were taught by the team wrestling coach, and our team was one of the top teams in CA for whatever that is worth, but I wasn't on the team.

Whatever submission wrestling they were doing at that school, AMC, looked like bad judo groundfighting so I didn't bother with it. But Pankration is probably something different -- I have no idea.

When I took judo it was around 70% throws, 30% ground fighting.

All I can say is that Judo seemed to do a lot more standup than any place that claimed to do wrestling I've ever been. Even BJJ is supposed to be a lot more ground fighting, like 90% or something.

[Black Jack II]

That's fine if you don't like ground grappling. You have made that apparent for awhile now it seems. But I would at least look into a effective take down defense to add to your toolbox.

Find a wrestler and work the sprawl into your training methods. Great defense.

[lunghushan]

That's fine if you don't like ground grappling. You have made that apparent for awhile now it seems. But I would at least look into a effective take down defense to add to your toolbox.

Find a wrestler and work the sprawl into your training methods. Great defense.

Sprawl is not very useful because it totally puts you off balance. You are then relying on your opponent's body to keep you up, which is why sprawl usually winds up on the ground.

We used to train takedown defenses all the time when I was in KF as a teenager because we assumed that most of our fights would be with jocks. And I don't recommend sprawl.

[namron]

liked those bjj v kickboxer clips.

good example of doin yourself in by trying to hold on to a bad position, no leverage/position for an effective crank or choke. Guy on the bottom possibly thought that he was doing ok, but was just buying time allowing the chap on top to set his position.

funny thing is this thread started with talk of sticky body, how muck stickier can you get where your opponent effectively traps both his own arms for u!

luv those knees from side control

:)

[Black Jack II]

Sprawl is not very useful because it totally puts you off balance

Oh christ bro, then you really don't understand the sprawl. It's one of they best takedown defenses on the planet. It allows you to counter the shoot and put yourself into a much better position for counter strikes.


And I don't recommend sprawl.

Well, once you understand it, you will.


We used to train takedown defenses all the time when I was in KF

KF in general is known for having horrible takedown defenses.

anyway....hope you pick up the sprawl....but UFC is on soon. Fight Night!

[lunghushan]

Oh christ bro, then you really don't understand the sprawl. It's one of they best takedown defenses on the planet. It allows you to counter the shoot and put yourself into a much better position for counter strikes.

KF in general is known for having horrible takedown defenses.

anyway....hope you pick up the sprawl....but UFC is on soon. Fight Night!

Dude, I took Judo ... sprawl is nothing special.

It doesn't allow you to counter the shoot. When you put both legs behind you, the only thing holding you up is your opponent. They can take you down extremely easily just by holding onto you and falling on the ground.

Whatever. I was showing a WC guy basic takedown defenses a while back and his eyes were bugging out of his head. Pretty funny stuff his reaction to extremely basic maneuvers.

Bottom line is something is extremely wrong with most KF schools out there because they don't seem to know how to fight anymore. I have no idea why that is, but it's probably because of forms factories where they make their $$$ off of teaching forms instead of fighting skill.

If they actually taught the students how to fight then the students would leave instead of taking useless forms for years and years -- I guess that's their rationale for doing that.

[jon]

I was showing a WC guy basic takedown defenses a while back and his eyes were bugging out of his head. Pretty funny stuff his reaction to extremely basic maneuvers.

Interesting, even my elderly, traditional as can be Taijiquan instructor uses sprawls for defense against a shoot - he has never learnt to wrestle.
What would you recommend as a defense to a shoot?

[Black Jack II]

It doesn't allow you to counter the shoot

That comment is so ill-informed I don't no where to start. It's the reason some here will **** all over what you call experiance. That statement does not add up at all to empircal evidence.


They can take you down extremely easily just by holding onto you and falling on the ground.

See statement above and reapply. I am suprised none of the dedicated grapplers have not blasted all over this statement already.

You know since you did judo, which btw I have never seen teach the sprawl inless for some reason they went against the grain and incorpated it from western wrestling, that the sprawl is something you don't just slide into and then sit on your hunches, it is hands down the best defense against a fully commited shoot and can be learned very fast to turn the pressure around on the attacker.

But whatever......man:rolleyes:

[lunghushan]

But whatever......man:rolleyes:

Bottom line is BJJ is a take off of Judo, which is a take off of Jujitsu and most grapplers haven't the slightest clue as to how CMA would handle the situation. (Then again, most CMAists have no clue either).

There's only one situation where you might want to use sprawl and that's when they have hold of both your feet at the same time and is an extreme emergency situation that is handled better in other ways.

The ironic thing is you guys really think MMA is good just because of UFCs/Pride. You know, McDonalds is like the most popular restaurant. Do you think it's good? LOL

[Black Jack II]

Bottom line is BJJ is a take off of Judo, which is a take off of Jujitsu and most grapplers haven't the lightest clue as to how CMA would handle the situation.

I think some do and that is why they make it out to be such a joke. As for others I don't think they really care as they are to busy training. Really though, anything has a chance to work once, even the most odd duck stuff, but its just that why practice something that you can't really train with full out?



There's only one situation where you might want to use sprawl and that's when they have hold of both your feet at the same time and is an extreme emergency situation that is handled better in other ways.

No, the sprawl is what allows them to not get your legs in the first place if you are able to temporaly shut down the drive. If they already have your legs,well you may already be on the way to ending up on your a$$, but even then the sprawl can help to allow you to remain in a better position to exert pressue, such as stationed over you attacker.

I have seen sprawl and brawl in action. It is very effective.

and yes McDonalds can be good if its three in the morning and your a tad wasted. Heh.

[lunghushan]

I think so do and that is why they make it out to be such a joke. As for others I don't think they really care as they are to busy training. Really though, anything has a chance to work once, even the most odd duck stuff, but its just that why practice something that you can't really train with full out?



I have seen sprawl and brawl in action. It is very effective.

I've caught something like 50 UFCs. It is at best play fighting.

There's a very simple way CMA handles this sort of thing, and it does not involve using both feet, which puts you off balance, but whatever. Better if they don't know how CMA handles this or it would make it harder to beat stupid MMAists if they decide to attack.

[Black Jack II]

I've caught something like 50 UFCs. It is at best play fighting.

Now, with this comment you really sum yourself up. Actually, its such a troll thing to say it almost suprised me.:cool:

[lunghushan]

.

Now, with this comment you really sum yourself up. Actually, its such a troll thing to say it almost suprised me.:cool:

The problem is that most people don't know CMA applications. They don't know the slightest thing about physics, which is why they raise their center of gravity in the ring. When you raise the center of gravity of an object does it make it more or less stable?

Then they compensate for a high center of gravity by putting their feet out and going totally off balance, or going up against the side of the cage ... whatever.

UFC now is like cavemen fighting. Very muscular cavemen.

[Aeturnal]

so im assuming no sticking body?:(

[lunghushan]

so im assuming no sticking body?:(

There is only one MA that I've come across that has what could be called 'sticky body' and you probably should forget about it.

If you want to learn something beyond Wing Chun, though, you might try these guys. Sifu Luo is pretty good http://www.yizongbagua.com/.

Baji also has some 'body fighting' techniques.

[RonH]

Sticking body? Sticking without using the feet or the hands. Would biting the opponent's nose count?

Why call it sticking body anyway? If you stick with something other than the hand or the foot, it's wrestling/grappling/joint locks.

That being said, coming up with a 'sticking body' group of techniques might in the end be better, if only in the organizing/teaching of underlying principles to get the best out of a particular way to wrestle/grapple/joint lock someone when using wing chun principles.

I'm just worried about the explosion of the extension of the lexicon for CMA that has happened over the generations with people calling things different names and doing it so often. Groupings of styles from other parts of the world probably suffer from the same thing. Calling it 'wing chun wrestling' might be better.

[Aeturnal]

There is only one MA that I've come across that has what could be called 'sticky body' and you probably should forget about it.

If you want to learn something beyond Wing Chun, though, you might try these guys. Sifu Luo is pretty good http://www.yizongbagua.com/.

Baji also has some 'body fighting' techniques.

im actually gonna be taking some baji soon..thanks :)

[Ben Gash]

Sticking body would essentially be the standard wrestling pummelling drill :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

Sprawl is not very useful because it totally puts you off balance. You are then relying on your opponent's body to keep you up, which is why sprawl usually winds up on the ground.



BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The next time I do a sprawl and stuff my opponent into the mat, while never losing my feet or making contact with the ground with any other part of my body than my feet, I'll remember this....

Incidentally, "wrestling" is takedown heavy.

SUBMISSION wrestling, is often not.

[lunghushan]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The next time I do a sprawl and stuff my opponent into the mat, while never losing my feet or making contact with the ground with any other part of my body than my feet, I'll remember this....

Incidentally, "wrestling" is takedown heavy.

SUBMISSION wrestling, is often not.

That's the thing ... stuff your opponent onto the mat. Is that all you want to do??? LOL

Anyways, I agree with Yum Cha on one thing which is that it's pretty useless to do armchair quarterbacking over the internet ... I'm done with these stupid conversations.

[Ben Gash]

.......But once he's face down on the mat you can start kneeing him in the head and raining elbows on his kidneys, or slip back for a guillotine, or stamp on him, or soccer kick his head, or...........

[stricker]

i do wing chun and mma.

the original point of this thread rings true for me. its definitely given my sub wrestling a distinct flavour. when i figured out what a big part of the ground game seems to be about (hip/leg position and control) trying to get the same energy in my legs working independently has really helped.

also on the wing chun board ive spoken with someone who said their student went to a VERY good mma school (UFC standard) and did really well, i think they didnt even get tapped out. he said they had more chi sao platforms than most standard wing chun which is just forearm to forearm. in the wing chun style im from chi sao goes from wrist range to forearm then closer in theres elbow chisao, and then it touches on shoulder range. what he said was they did body-chisao which to my mind would be just taking the same one step closer.

but i would think that case very very unusual. personally im amazed that anyone did any good on the ground without actually training there realistically especially in a recognised way eg bjj judo sambo etc or with influence from them.

also people saying about mma being primative etc just havent got a clue.

[Mr Punch]

I often wondered why people are always ragging on you. Now I realize.
Sprawl is not very useful because it totally puts you off balance. You are then relying on your opponent's body to keep you up, which is why sprawl usually winds up on the ground.


I've caught something like 50 UFCs. It is at best play fighting.It's because you're a complete ass. Funny though.

[Mr Punch]

As stricker says there are some principles in wing chun, and in other non-ground related MA (I've used wing chun and aikido principles successfully in MMA - 2 of the most laughable MA! :D :rolleyes: ;) ) that will help with your ground game. However, you will never find this out unless you go to a school that teaches you good groundwork like an MMA school (depending on its pedigree), wrestling or BJJ.

If a wing chun school says it does this, it's because the teacher has been to on of these schools. Cut out the middle man, unless of course the WC teacher is a BJJ black belt or something.

[stricker]

high fives to mr punch!

one thing, its interesting you see MMA schools as lesser than bjj/wrestling schools in terms of groundwork. is that just because the game is more spread out, they spend time on stand up too, or cos the quality is lower?

the way i see it MMA-specific groundwork (which even a lot of MMAers maybe dont address enough) is definitely different to pure submissions groundwork. i find my wing chun background pays off much more when we roll with strikes than without.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, nothing except MMA works or is any good. MMA fighters are the best and the best of the best and they can beat guns, sticks, knives with BJJ and the sprawl.

The sprawl is the only takedown defense, the best ever invented and it always always always works because we can see on UFC that it works because of course nothing that isn't on UFC/Pride works or is any good.

Yup ... that all must be true because anything else would be TROLLING and STUPID.

All CMA people should just not even bother with anything else because of course the UFC is the only fighting that matters. TKD is of course a close second though to UFC fighting, but CMA is only for morons and retards.

:rolleyes:

[Li Kao]

Look at CroCop or Chuck Liddell -- currently 2 of the most respected and successful Heavyweight fighters in recent years -- they are primarily strikers who use the sprawl to great success against grapplers more skilled than them, to keep the fight off the ground. Crocop lost a match via subsmission against Nogueira earlier in his career which led him to do some training in takedown defense, of which the sprawl is a major part of. Last year, he beat a former Olympic gold medalist.

Just from my own experience -- I have some friends who like to get together and spar in the backyard. They are primarily grapplers -- one currently trains Pankration and another is a Marine who did high school wrestling. I have learned a few things from them but am basically a striker. They know my ground skills are weak and are always trying to shoot in on me when we spar. I rely on the sprawl to keep them away from my legs. Much of the times it works, and sometimes it doesn't, in which case I am usually outclassed and dispatched rather quickly though I'm getting better. ;)

[Merryprankster]

That's the thing ... stuff your opponent onto the mat. Is that all you want to do??? LOL

Depends on the context. In MMA, I would follow up with knees, strikes to the head, etc...especially......

...since I am still on my feet.

In a streetfight, I'd probably soccer kick them upside the noggin and run
.....since I am still on my feet.

Incidentally, the problem isn't MMA or CMA. It's that you're a stark raving idiot or a stark raving *******.

You tell me which one.

Or we could look at a more equitable solution. I don't tell you how to do a horse stance or a form, and you don't tell your grappling betters, like me for instance, what a sprawl can and cannot do.

[Mr Punch]

one thing, its interesting you see MMA schools as lesser than bjj/wrestling schools in terms of groundwork. is that just because the game is more spread out, they spend time on stand up too, or cos the quality is lower?I wasn't saying I thought MMA lesser than BJJ... The comment about pedigree is because since MMA became so popular there have been a couple of MMA schools that have sprung up without any history of success in fighting sports. They just teach a sloppy mix of half learnt, lower ranked B or JJJ, a couple of wrestling techs and some very half-baked Thai kicks.

I've rolled with BJJers, and full-contact sparred with kyokushin fighters and Thai boxers in my MMA school, but I've never done those individual disciplines. I do have confidence that my teacher is not teaching reheated slop though, because I've seen him fight, I know his record in Thailand and here in Japan: he's a **** good Thai fighter, with a family background in competitive wrestling and has also spent a good couple of years working on his boxing skills.

As for the quality issue, as I say I'm no expert on BJJ, but I would say they're probably better than generic MMA schools on the ground simply because they spend more time there.

And I agree fully with your point about rolling on the ground with strikes providing more useful opps for wing chun principles than rolling without strikes... so the training with strikes should help you into a more well-rounded fighter, although not if it causes you to sacrifice the basics of either grappling or striking.

[Mr Punch]

My only thought is simple amazement at the lengths some people are evidently willing to go to in order to avoid learning how to wrestle. It's got to be easier to learn how to grapple, and then integrate that into your base art, than to come up with a new "sticking" method and adapt that to a situation you don't even understand.Was just thinking...

This is a very good (and pretty funny) point. But, on the other hand, if you have some chunners who work a lot with BJJ seminars and classes too, and decide to use chun terminology to make it an easier format for the shared principles for their more traditional students, as long as they acknowledge the base of the grappling part of their art is in BJJ and not wing chun... I don't see a problem with calling something sticky body. It does kind of smack of special school though, if the poor wee babies can't handle any new expressions! :D

[hinokata]

I've used wing chun and aikido principles successfully in MMA - 2 of the most laughable MA!

A question if I may, why do you think aikido is one of the most laughable MA?

[Mr Punch]

Sure. I'll keep it short so as not to derail the thread.

It has a terrible rep as being unrealistic, impossible to apply and full of charlatans.

The series of amusing little faces after my statement may just suggest to you that I don't agree with this assessment, though in my getting on for 16 years of practising aikido in the UK, a little in France and over here in Japan I have seen a lot more charlatans, wannabes and people who would have no chance of using it in a real situation than I have people who've been halfway useful.

Does that cover it? :)

Any more questions maybe you should PM me or start another thread.

[hinokata]

Does that cover it? :)

Yep and I agree with your statements. I was just curious as to your reasoning.

.... returning to the thread topic now ......

[lunghushan]

Incidentally, the problem isn't MMA or CMA. It's that you're a stark raving idiot or a stark raving *******.

You tell me which one.


Somehow it just seems like a problem with communication and the way things have become watered down.

Like I had an argument with a kid (some 24 year old -- thinks he knows everything) this morning at work about Green Day (the band). I was saying that they suck. I was saying, look at bands like Minor Threat, look at something like Bad Brains, and then try to tell me Green Day is anything decent or broke any new ground.

He basically said what you're saying, that I'm just an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about. But he also said he never listened to Minor Threat or Bad Brains, so how could he really know?

[Merryprankster]

lunghushun

It's really simple. I've been sprawling for ten years. I know what it can and can't do. I don't care what the CMA response is. You made a statement about the sprawl, which I know is incorrect, based on my years of experience staying on my feet using the sprawl.

So, like I said, I'm not going to tell you how that form should be. It would be hubris in the extreme to do so.

Similarly, perhaps you should not tell those of us with quite a bit of grappling experience what can/can't happen when sprawling.

Your analogy fails because I don't give a crap what you THINK about the sprawl, if you think it's garbage, if CMA practicioners poop pure silk.

You said something about the sprawl that is demonstrably incorrect. That's it.

So it's not a question of "does Green day suck." (the answer is yes). It's more like you said that Green Day covered an aria from Carmen. There's no "opinion." It's just factually incorrect.

[lunghushan]

lunghushun

It's really simple. I've been sprawling for ten years. I know what it can and can't do. I don't care what the CMA response is. You made a statement about the sprawl, which I know is incorrect, based on my years of experience staying on my feet using the sprawl.

So, like I said, I'm not going to tell you how that form should be. It would be hubris in the extreme to do so.

Similarly, perhaps you should not tell those of us with quite a bit of grappling experience what can/can't happen when sprawling.

Honestly I don't really care. I honestly WANT you to sprawl all you MMA folks in case I ever have to fight stupid MMA folks ... not that I'd ever shoot anyway, because it's such a stupid technique.

[Merryprankster]

If you honestly don't really care, why do you keep responding?

You must find some value, if only for entertainment?

[lunghushan]

If you honestly don't really care, why do you keep responding?

You must find some value, if only for entertainment?

I'm bored and I don't want to do my real work at this moment which is mind-numbingly boring.

It's too bad I don't smoke weed because I think that would be just the ticket for this kind of task.