Cross training with boxing

[petervasylenko]

Hello all, this is my fist post and dont know if this has been talked about before.
Im learning wing chun at the moment but wanted to know what you guys thought about training boxing aswell. ive been interested in boxing for years but only wanted to train it latley. I feel it might affect my wing chun in a negative way as i dont have a good enough grip on the concepts, ive only trained wing chun for 2 years.
Just seems that the priciples of both styles conflict with each other eg no shoulders in wing chun, no ducking and weaving. i think it would just confuse me.
What are your thoughts on this?

[leroyjnsn]

Hey that is a good idea. My boxing experience is low, and have only been training in WC for months. But I would think that training boxing would help with reflexes, mobility. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with cross training. It keeps the mind open to new ideas I think. I know that it is good cardio!


Best wishes,
Leroy
"Committed to not compromise."

[petervasylenko]

im still uncertain because if i was in a situation, my body might get confussed because wing chun is telling me get within one step and punch with a step no shoulders, but boxing would tell me throw that hook now, get out of there couple jabs and a cross etc. it feels like it would "short circuit" my abbility to fight?

[couch]

Hello all, this is my fist post and dont know if this has been talked about before.
Im learning wing chun at the moment but wanted to know what you guys thought about training boxing aswell. ive been interested in boxing for years but only wanted to train it latley. I feel it might affect my wing chun in a negative way as i dont have a good enough grip on the concepts, ive only trained wing chun for 2 years.
Just seems that the priciples of both styles conflict with each other eg no shoulders in wing chun, no ducking and weaving. i think it would just confuse me.
What are your thoughts on this?

I took some time off of WC to learn some boxing. It was the best thing that I ever good have done IMHO!

I feel this because I learned so much about how cardio can actually be working INTO my WC training...not something separate.

Also, it gave me quite the perspective on how to train effectively: cardio, conditioning, bag work, partner work. Never once did we punch in the air. We were always hitting something and working on technique and footwork AT THE SAME TIME!!! ;)

It has made me a better WC practicioner and instructor.

Don't worry about the "style" differences that you see...they will blur with time and then all you'll be doing is fighting.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Ultimatewingchun]

See my old thread entitled: Wing Chun Boxing.

[Average Joe]

quote:
Never once did we punch in the air.

What kind of wing chun is teaching you to punch in the air.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I seem to think that boxing and WC would be completely different. I'm not sure that they would "combine" at all.

Boxing punchines line up the shoulder, elbow, and fist, thereby increasing the power of a punch. WC is more concerned with speedy retaliation than KO power, and will only truly combine the elbow and fist. As a matter of fact, there aren't any CMA that really use Boxing alignment for punches. It's all a part of remaining relaxed, ready, and speedy.

Secondly, the footwork in boxing allows one to move in and out of range at will, utilizing an entire floor with full 360 degrees of scope, rooted in the toes. WC has very limited footwork. It's all based on economy...economy of action, motion, power, speed. Its root is in the heels and instep, and secondarily in the toes.

Thirdly, boxing attacks from all angles. WC is a veeeery linear style, and one presses one's advantage by moving straight at the opponent. Hence....centerline style.

I don't think they'd blend well, but such as they are opposites, you'd be getting educated in the things WC will not teach you in great depth, and often casts off as unnecessary. But for power punches that'll F-up the skinny dudes at your WC school, boxing is awesome. (I'm more partial to boxing in this pairing. It's better for fighting, and it keeps you mobile, and you can press distancing and work on that jab;) ).

[Lipan]

Hello all, this is my fist post and dont know if this has been talked about before.
Im learning wing chun at the moment but wanted to know what you guys thought about training boxing aswell. ive been interested in boxing for years but only wanted to train it latley. I feel it might affect my wing chun in a negative way as i dont have a good enough grip on the concepts, ive only trained wing chun for 2 years.
Just seems that the priciples of both styles conflict with each other eg no shoulders in wing chun, no ducking and weaving. i think it would just confuse me.
What are your thoughts on this?


Remember that Wing Chun is conceptual. Chi Sao and all of the other WC tools are merely methods of developing a greater understanding for the WC theories. (Move foward when the way is clear, centerline concepts, ecomonomy of movement, sensitivity ect). Even the Boxer could utilize these concepts to their fullest and vice versa. As a WC fighter, why not throw the boxers hook if the way is not clear?

[samson818]

I dont see anything wrong with mixing western boxing and Wing Chun.
As long as you understand they stand on their own with separate philosophies, methods, and structures.
Wing Chun does utilize the body to support its punches.
In fact, much of its power comes from similar structural alignment the western boxing has. Alignment of the joints and their linkage/unlinkage.
It has been mentioned it is a conceptual art, many people will have their own understanding. Some choose to just employ their chain punches as fast weak strikes in a machines-gun like manner.

[sihing]

There's no problem mixing the two, I acutally recommend it. The problem happens when you train the two simultaneously. If one art form is not your core method, and you train to learn both at the same time you could run into problems IMO. Both methods teach different things. How to defend and generate power is just two of them. You are only confusing yourself and your bodily response when doing this. I would concentrate on one at a time, having either as a core base and then complimenting it with the other, using both when needed in a natural manner.

James

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

For me I have to say that Wing Chun is a Boxing art, the art of Chinese Boxing.

I think you should train with modern training methods ie bags, glove sparring, conditioning and so on. But the method of striking is wing chun.

I think we have a lot of wing chun guys that are forgeting we punch and kick.

Thats just my view of course. I students love to fight NHB, boxing, sparring etc all using wing chun chinese boxing skills.

My studnet Aaron just beat an army boxing champ in Pro NHB fight with his chinese boxing skills.

Look at a lot of MMA and you see people are starting to punch with their elbows more down and the body more square on.

I just produced my new DVD's on this area as I think we need to understand the correct way to train wing chun and its structure for combat.

Best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

www.alanorr.com

[samson818]

Sifu Alan Orr,

I'm curious, when you and your guys compete, do you still use Pak da, Tan da, and Lop Da? Do employ chain punches? Are you able to bridge the gap and use your chisao training when you make contact?
What WC techniques or strategies have been most effective in your experience?

Thanks for your input in advance.

[El Guapo]

quote:
Never once did we punch in the air.

What kind of wing chun is teaching you to punch in the air.

I think this all depends on what you consider
"puching in the air"
Compaired to boxing I would say the majority of my wing chun training is punching in the air. That is to say that my punches never land on a solid surface they merely strike air. Where as in boxing you train mainly striking actual targets i.e focus mits, heavy bags, speed bags sparring partners....
In my training one of the first things we do is punch in the air for a while something like 700+ times.
then in training techniques we punch at each other but pull our punches (hopefully) before contact, essentially punching air.
Why, how do you train punching in your wing chun? ;)

[ZenGuy]

whem combining or even just doing wing chun and boxing i found that i ended up perfering to stand in amore natural boxing stance and especially after a few drinks the more primative style of boxing feels alot more natural.

u mite end up like bruce lee, using a wing chun/boxing hybrid?

i do like the powerfull cross' from boxing using the whole body behind the shot.

[Paul T England]

Hi All,

I think if your wing chun is lacking then maybe the boxing is good for long range. You sure can learn alot about strategy and fitness but some wing chun teachers such as Alan orr can already teach this as part of the wing chun training. I agree with Alan, that some wing chun people forget that its a boxing art.

Whats wrong with punching in the air, you telling me boxers and mma guys don't shadow boxing or do any solo drills. Thats what is going to help make you better than the next guy! (Obviously you need to be hitting things and working with partners for a large percentage of the time.) How many complete beginners can do a jab, straight punch, front kick, sprawl properly without practicing it in the air?


Stick with wing chun if you find a good teacher,

Paul

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think if your wing chun is lacking then maybe the boxing is good for long range."


***AND I think that even of your wing chun is not lacking that boxing is good for your long range. :cool:

[drleungjohn]

--you wanted to do a spinning back kick and go to train it,-because you wanted to-your Wing Chun is lacking?

I think that WCK training would say and teach the right time and circumstance to do it-

Like WSL says-(paraphrase)WCK is a horse you ride,You control it.

[sihing]

--you wanted to do a spinning back kick and go to train it,-because you wanted to-your Wing Chun is lacking?

I think that WCK training would say and teach the right time and circumstance to do it-

Like WSL says-(paraphrase)WCK is a horse you ride,You control it.

Nice words there John.:)

The question is does one NEED boxing training to make them an effective fighter? No IMO. But it won't hurt you if you decide to train in it after some serious effort in WC first. Visa versa if you are a boxer and want to expand your horizons in another primarily striking art.

Personally I think most people do things not because of necessity but rather because they like to do it. Do we really need to learn Martial Arts in todays world to defend ourselves? Not really, so it is fair to say most of us train in WC for the simple fact that we like it.

James

[drleungjohn]

I have a boxing background at the same time I was doing WCK-Golden Gloves,my first boxing coach was Arthur Mercante,of the Ali/Frazier fights--so for me,when I see martial arts guys say they throw boxing punches,like in self defense or magazine situations-it riles me because they are clueless as to how the proper arsenal of punches is thrown-good hooks or uppercuts are super tough to stop in anyones system due to the cutting or rising angles-and they are so tight at the elbow,it is hard to inject the right shape of hand,at the right time to not take a piece of it

"Know yourself,Know your opponent-100 battles,100 victories"

Or "Be a knife Fighter to defend the knife"-

Or just walk into various schools and fight everybody-yeah,that'll work!!!

[leejunfan]

I love it when "martial artists" under estimate boxers. :D

"Hey......... dude........ wake up. Yeah..... you got knocked the $@#% out!"

Lacking?....ignorant statement, plain and simple.

[stricker]

Hello all, this is my fist post and dont know if this has been talked about before.
Im learning wing chun at the moment but wanted to know what you guys thought about training boxing aswell. ive been interested in boxing for years but only wanted to train it latley. I feel it might affect my wing chun in a negative way as i dont have a good enough grip on the concepts, ive only trained wing chun for 2 years.
Just seems that the priciples of both styles conflict with each other eg no shoulders in wing chun, no ducking and weaving. i think it would just confuse me.
What are your thoughts on this?DO IT!!!

one thing (i dont know what anyone else thinks of this?) but muay thai might be more compatible with wing chun than western boxing. thai boxers keep more of an upright posture less bobbing and weaving to avoid kicks and knees. also the footwork may be more similar depending if your all weight on the back leg or 50-50. i think thai boxing has more in common with wing chun. but, boxing may be quicker to pick up what you want from it, and youll get deeper quicker. i love training with boxers, the depth of knowledge they have in how to train correctly, the dynamics of fighting etc etc is awesome. being a bit succeptible to kicks maybe isnt such a big deal

also the naysayers might not actually be speaking from the experience of doing both. i dont think its that hard to keep the mechanics or techniques seperate, and if you get into a fight in the street who cares which comes out the boxing or wing chun

[wingchunmike]

Doing your Wing Chun punches in the air is good but you can also practice them on a traditional Wing Chun wall sandbag.A wallbag is inexpensive & you can find them in a lot of online martial arts stores.

[Paul T England]

Nice to see people responding....

Jus to point out, I don't underestimate boxing, karate or any other system, style or individual. Boxing can take many forms as can wing chun, my only point was that do boxers generally say maybe I should do wing chun so I have a more complete system? I think wing chun has enough but you must train it correctly and have experience and good teaching just like boxing. For some boxers, wing chun could improve what they do and the opposite is true.

Air punching, impact training two person training are all essential for wing chun and boxing. I have learnt many things from watching, reading and talking about boxing. I would even like to spar with boxers to gain valuable experience but I have no interest in training it as for me the body mechanics are very different. I have done some boxing type training via eskrima and JKD seminars and it feels horrible for me.

Paul

[Ultimatewingchun]

" I don't underestimate boxing, karate or any other system, style or individual. Boxing can take many forms as can wing chun, my only point was that do boxers generally say maybe I should do wing chun so I have a more complete system? I think wing chun has enough but you must train it correctly and have experience and good teaching just like boxing." (Paul T)


***OKAY...time for another explanation of why I think that the wing chun fighter (and yes....I'm talking about a skilled one)....why he NEEDS to learn some boxing if he wants to be competitive against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer (ie.- a guy with some very good hands)...

BECAUSE WING CHUN IS A VERY SHORT RANGE STRIKING SYSTEM.

And it's getting to that range (and staying there) that is the dilemma for about 95% of all wing chun fighters I would dare say....

without getting tight hook punched, uppercutted, overhanded, or long round punched into the ground....

and/or kicked into oblivion by a skilled kickboxer or Thai boxer.

................................

Now all that said - there are ways to adapt some boxing hands (and footwork) into the wing chun game very seamlessly in order to get to the wing chun range. You don't have to become an all-out "boxer" per se.

And there are ways of adapting some kicking technique not "usually" associated with wing chun (although for the most part they exist in TWC)...as a supplement to the longer range boxing hands and footwork - to get to the close infight position.

[guy b.]

True, all wing chun people should try boxing at some point. If wing chun compared favourably on hands alone we would see wing chunners winning boxing titles and boxers training wing chun, but we don't. WC has a small window of application and the trick is learning what it is, how to get there and when.

[Lipan]

Sifu Heinrich Pfaff is a primary example of a WT/WC master who has seen and exploited the benefits of cross training in Western Boxing. He has developed a system where these two styles co-exist and compliment each other. Although the system is not limited to the use of these two styles, several of his basic drills require that the practitioner learn to move in and out of the Boxing and WT/WC mentality while under the pressure of defending/offending in combat. Paul T said "I think wing chun has enough but you must train it correctly and have experience and good teaching just like boxing" and up until I began cross training myself I would have completely agreed. Cross training is a good way to fill the voids of the novice WT/WC practioner seeing as the concepts of sensitivity, economy of motion even chain punching and reactions take many years to develop. Why limit yourself to one idea?




Evolution is inevitable.

http://www.ml-maf.com/

http://www.yongtjunconcepts.com/

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHaZotAGPIs

hmm, not quite sure what to say

[leejunfan]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh, no....:eek:

Oh....no, no, no...:rolleyes:

[CFT]

Oh wow. I'm so glad they included the slow-er motion bits because I would have missed some important parts otherwise! :rolleyes:

Obviously just showing the public versions of the D3adly 4rt of Wing Chun.

[Dan_chi_sau]

thats ugly.....

[Lipan]

Guys....this is a play/reenactment of a legendary fight between Leung Jan and a champion fighter from Canton. This is simply a play and should not be thought of as a representation of this artist. Do your research before you jump the gun and fire the judgments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKx6SzlekdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHaZotAGPIs

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

In my mind and in training Wing Chun is a boxing system.

It is like the old school boxing... yes, but not like modern boxing , which is a sport with big gloves.

The range of wing chun is not just close range. We like close range, but you control all ranges in a fight.. that how you win a fight... control you opponent.

The modern boxing training is excellent and that is what you should use in your wing chun training not the method as you have a method already... wing chun!

Pad training, sparring, conditioning ... all great.

Its a shame, most people think chain punch and turning punch are wing chun.

Learn to spar with your wing chun. We use own horse to control distance, we have many striking methods.

Boxing jab - wing chun spring punch

Boxing cross - wing chun thrusting punch

Boxing uppercut - wing chun bounce punch

Now all our punching methods are different in structure and movement, but they do the same job and you will not break your hands in a real fight. As we use the fist correctly. Modern boxing has got used of striking with you glove and had lost you important understanding of which part of the fist transfers the power. Thats why a lot of sport boxers break hands in street fights.


Maybe this article will help:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/ironwolvesarticle.html

Train like a modern boxer but not as a modern boxer.

Put your boxing gloves on and sparr with wing chun boxing skills.

Use you chinese boxing system!

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[sihing]

Hi Guys

In my mind and in training Wing Chun is a boxing system.

It is like the old school boxing... yes, but not like modern boxing , which is a sport with big gloves.

The range of wing chun is not just close range. We like close range, but you control all ranges in a fight.. that how you win a fight... control you opponent.

The modern boxing training is excellent and that is what you should use in your wing chun training not the method as you have a method already... wing chun!

Pad training, sparring, conditioning ... all great.

Its a shame, most people think chain punch and turning punch are wing chun.

Learn to spar with your wing chun. We use own horse to control distance, we have many striking methods.

Boxing jab - wing chun spring punch

Boxing cross - wing chun thrusting punch

Boxing uppercut - wing chun bounce punch

Now all our punching methods are different in structure and movement, but they do the same job and you will not break your hands in a real fight. As we use the fist correctly. Modern boxing has got used of striking with you glove and had lost you important understanding of which part of the fist transfers the power. Thats why a lot of sport boxers break hands in street fights.


Maybe this article will help:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/ironwolvesarticle.html

Train like a modern boxer but not as a modern boxer.

Put your boxing gloves on and sparr with wing chun boxing skills.

Use you chinese boxing system!

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

Great post Alan! I especially agree with your last statement "Train like a modern boxer but not as a modern boxer".

Ultimately IMO, it is how you train the system and who you train with that really counts. If the source of information is not qualified then how do you expect to achieve success within the system, when the methodology is unproven? Second, how do you expect to use it if you haven't trained/absorbed it within your system? Most people can't use WC for one of these reasons or a combination of both, so therefore it is the INDIVIDUALS fault for THEIR failure in being able to use what they are practicing in a real pressure environment, not the system that they train in.

For me I look at WC as strictly a training system. A method of movement interwoven with concepts and strategy the allow me to naturally express myself in combat. I am not bound by that system, and am free to use whatever is needed at the correct time. But to learn something you must practice it perfectly (structurally & mechanically), and follow the training pattern as set out by those with practical experience that are teaching you. Later on when you have absorbed what it is trying to teach you (by testing yourself regularly), you can loosen up and apply things in a more natural fashion, according to your own physiology and thoughts.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

And I think it's the INDIVIDUAL'S failure to pressure test his wing chun against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer....using very thin gloves and with full contact (including headshots) that leads to an UNREALISTIC assessment of what wing chun can and cannot do - all by itself.

And if you really want to go the extra mile - find some people skilled in the other arts I've just described who are taller and heavier than you are...not just guys your size or smaller.

This is where the rubber really hits the road.

Happy traveling - and get home safe. :rolleyes: :D

[leejunfan]

Guys....this is a play/reenactment of a legendary fight between Leung Jan and a champion fighter from Canton. This is simply a play and should not be thought of as a representation of this artist. Do your research before you jump the gun and fire the judgments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKx6SzlekdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHaZotAGPIs

reeactment or not.... very cheesy. Maybe the person postig the video should have been more specific. But then again... it wouldn't have changed the cheesiness of the clip. This is not a slam against the Sifu...... heck... I've done cheesy things before :D

I personally can't stand Martial Dancing. Like this here :p http://youtube.com/watch?v=7O7guQVFk-k

There's nothing "Martial" about it...... this is dancing.

[Lipan]

Yea, I apologize for the hasty defense leejunfan. I felt I had to clarify what it was that this video was depicting. The guy is 1st class and although the cheese factor is through the roof, we all know that to not defend your own teacher is a blasphemous act. Thanks for the dancing video... don't know what to say about this type of competition performance and why it is that the public enjoys it so much?

[stricker]

Train like a modern boxer but not as a modern boxer. alan what your saying makes a lot of sense. 2 things i thought though. first in my mind wing chun is also a chinese (stand up) wrestling/grappling system as well as boxing system. one really good thing i see in wing chun is the grappling and striking are blended seamlessly through chi sao in a way which is very refined. also [and i dont want anyone to read this as a disrespect to people like yourself using fight-preparation type methods in training] real boxing or thai boxing coaches have a much greater depth of experience and knowledge in those methods and in fighting in general.

[Alan Orr]

Hi stricker


RE:
alan what your saying makes a lot of sense. 2 things i thought though. first in my mind wing chun is also a chinese (stand up) wrestling/grappling system as well as boxing system. one really good thing i see in wing chun is the grappling and striking are blended seamlessly through chi sao in a way which is very refined.


Alan: I agree that what I teach and train. My new DVD's are just on that 3 on striking 2 on Chi Sao and 2 on Chin Na. I feel the structure method makes it all work.

RE:

also [and i dont want anyone to read this as a disrespect to people like yourself using fight-preparation type methods in training] real boxing or thai boxing coaches have a much greater depth of experience and knowledge in those methods and in fighting in general.

Alan: Of course in some way you are correct, but it depends on the teacher. I have boxing and thai boxing training from my pass years of training, I also train with K1, UFC fighters and trainers. I understand what thay are good at and have not had to change my wing chun at all. Again the body structure we use holds the answers for us. I have taken training methods and conditioning drills etc but then made them suit my wing chun not the other way around.

You should make time and visit us sometime, you sound like you are open minded.

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[stricker]

alan,

good stuff. im definitely down for training with you guys its really a matter of time. i'd have to bust out of work early to get to you in time, and im training quite a lot at the moment anyway...

cheers!

[namron]

Been playin a bit with clinch work and it seems to me that the fook structure as a head control and principal of elbow tightly in allows you to connect with your own body ams and centre of gravity and allow one to manipulate the opponent easier.

Has anyone out there explored this and is prepared to throw me a bone on a few good drills in the clinch environment, preferably based on reaction against an opponent resisting.

Alan,
anerlich
ernie,
KF,
ultimate,
andrew,
anyone :D

got anything worth drillin?

Ta

[guy b.]

Try wrestling? You will quickly find that keeping the elbows close is a mainstay of freestyle technique. If they are out then they are handles which can be used to move you around. If they are in you also have more leverage as they connect to your body better.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have to agree with Guy...don't look upon the fuk around the neck and head as some wing chun way of dealing with wrestlers/grapplers in the clinch.

Learn how to wrestle in the clinch.

Learn some Thai knee strikes from that position.



....then later you can go back and see how that "fuk" might be utilized with some wing chun striking/unbalancing.

But do that as an after-thought....because your main thoughts in the clinch should be on wrestling...since you're now in wrestling territory.

You want a drill to begin with?

Check out what pummeling is....underhooks....overhooks....bear hug body locks leading to takedowns...front headlocks leading to takedowns, etc.

[namron]

No arguments there boys

these concepts and the training environment are not entirely alien to me

i guess i'm looking to utilise wc point of contact and throwing the line out to see if there is any realistic slant on building/refining attributes from familar wc standup including begging, borrowing or stealing from more proficient standing grappling styles.

It sounds like you guys have already got an angle on these things in your training methods. Surely some of that laps over into your wc structure at the standing clinch, elbow & knee range.

without sounding too niave i guess i'm asking for some useable drillwork scenarios for upper body control that can be built on to depending on the opponents reaction using the fook head drag as a starting reference point.

Think of it as a training blog

[Edmund]

namron,

Because it's such a broad topic with a wide range of applications and strategies, I'd suggest you'd have to break it down into more catagories like:
- basic postures and movements
- striking
- throws and takedowns
- standing locks and chokes

So for your basic postures and moves, a drill could be: You start with your fook sao on opponent's neck. Your other hand controls the inside of his wrist or elbow. When they try to slide their arm inside of your fook sao to break your hold, you turn your elbow in and pull it close to block it.

If they can create enough space to feed their arm inside, they can try break your hold and then take their own fook sao on your neck. Then alternate. You try break their hold.

Another movement one might be: You start same position as before. Opponent tries to push under your jaw with their free hand to break your balance and your hold. You release your fook sao from their neck and get inside of their pushing hand to get it off you. Fook sao their neck with your other hand. Keep alternating hands.

[AndrewS]

The drill Edmond described = pummeling for neck tie.
From a neck tie you can go for knees, or off-balance to go for knees, or break someone down, counter with body position, recover body position, apply specific counters, add strikes, combine with pummel for underhooks, go for takedowns from underhook pummel platform, go to neck tie from underhook pummel/ combine underhook/neck tie position, pummel for inside control, strike from same, and so forth.

Check my training journal on the S&C board, it has about 3 years of records of practice, and some seminar and training notes from a variety of useful sources -Rene Latosa, Rodney King, Mark Mendez, Adam Singer, and Emin Boztepe. BTW- the last one on that list has the most brutal active clinch I've ever encountered, and is one of my touchstones for exploring this area. He was doing muay thai, greco-inflected freestyle wrestling, and to a lesser extent, judo, concurrent with Wing Chun nearly 25 years ago, and has been refining that perspective ever since.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

The collar/neck tie can be a very useful offensive weapon - used in conjunction with strikes from the other hand, as part of a setup for knee strikes...and as a setup for numerous wrestling moves (ie.- snap downs into a front head lock takedown, or snapdowns into a single or double leg snatch or shoot, or into a figure 4 choke, face lock, guillotine, etc.)

But there are also counters to the neck tie (whether you're using fuk sao from a wing chun platform/strategy...a wrestling/grappling strategy...a Thai strategy, or whatever).

For example, the best ways OUT of the neck tie do NOT include having to get your hand to the inside of his fuk/neck/collar tie. (Which is hard to do).

1) With one arm you grab his non-fuk sao arm near his inside elbow area...near his bicep (so he can't hit you with his non-collar tie hand)...and with your other hand you reach behind and literally rip the neck tie/fuk off by attacking his fingers - scraping across your own neck before even reaching to where his fingers are...

2) Grab his fuk/collar tie wrist from the inside with your OTHER hand (not the one you would have used to get "inside" his fuk)...and put your other hand/arm underneath the armpit of his fuk hand and pressure up - and then jerk and twist your shoulder corresponding to his "fuk" side...jerk/twist it hard and fast (lots of waist pivot also)...into his fuk arm...while pulling his fuk off with your other hand/arm that was placed on the inside...

and not only have you freed yourself from his collar tie - you now have a two-on-one against his fuk arm - with an assist from your shoulder and chest to continue on and into an advantageous position/hold of your own.

My point is this: Learn how to wrestle in the clinch as your FIRST priority - since you are now in wrestling "territory"...then start adding knees, hand strikes, elbows strikes, wing chun, etc....

into the game.

This is the most productive way to go, imo.

[Nick Forrer]

Good post Victor

(ie.- snap downs into a front head lock takedown........ or into a figure 4 choke, face lock, guillotine, etc.)

personal favourites of mine...the catch face lock is a peach from this position...or the elbows in chin cup guillotine.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Agreed, Nick...:cool:

[namron]

Thanks Edmond

This was the drill specific info I was hoping someone might share in developing response.

Start with a base case ...build a workable the drill by adding random elements to isolate it with an aim of developing clean technique, then sanity check vs resisting opponent.

I'll work it over with one my training mates and see what drops out.

This stuff is just an experiment not sure exactly where its leading. As one wise man once said: 'i reserve the right to be absolutely f*king wrong' ;)

Andrew, I browsed your blog in the past man. Impressive work ethic!!!!!!!

Wouldnt mine dropping you a PM to get some advice, let me know if your up for that.


Cheers all

[AndrewS]

Namron,

feel free to hit my pm, I'm happy to help.

Andrew

[Edmund]

Thanks Edmond

This was the drill specific info I was hoping someone might share in developing response.

Start with a base case ...build a workable the drill by adding random elements to isolate it with an aim of developing clean technique, then sanity check vs resisting opponent.



No worries.

This basic drill of trying to pummel inside is the fundamental exercise in MT clinch training. It trains the basic concepts of the position before you go into throwing knees etc.

The same pummeling movement of getting the arm inside to break the neck tie is also incorporated whenever you are trying to get a neck tie yourself. You also train how to make the space in the hold to move and get your arms in where you want.

In application (or your sanity check), you won't be able to just do things exactly like in the drill. If they have the time to clamp the hold on good, you'll find it difficult to break. Like any other hold, the earlier you start to counter the better. The drill still trains the basis of the counter though. You'll become a far stronger clincher.