what exactly is the difference btwn internal and external?

[Aeturnal]

im trying to understand exactly what the difference is btwn an internal and external style in CMA's. I did start this off in another forum about asking whether mantis was internal or external or both. im just having trouble grasping the concept how learning taijijuan as a fighting style would be different then something like wing chun, mantis, choy li fut etc. any answers are appreciated :)

[Michael Dasargo]

Aeturnal

Internal is commonly associated with soft, passive-aggressive movements.

External is commonly associated with brute, assertive-aggressive type movements.

However, an External emphasis also refers to how something looks, while an Internal emphasis also refers to how something feels and functions.

What your thinking of as Nei Jia (Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua etc) are systems that are predominately composed of passive-aggressive principles giving a soft and slow look to the practice (generally speaking). This appearance is due to the fine tuning of body mechanics, angle stepping, etc.

However, the person playing it may only understand the look of the movements (an external expression), rather than the feel and function (an internal expression).

Likewise, a Muay Thai fighter may emphasize a passive-aggressive defense and focus on spiraling the spine to produce power, thus making such an expression of Muay Thai " soft" and "internal" in principle.

Internal and External is a matter of principle emphasis, and is not exclusive to individual systems.

Tai Chi, Xingyi, and Bagua fighters that I know do heavy bag and focus mitt work, while karate guys I know practice slow to refine the kinetics of individual techniques.

Mantis is balanced. The internal and external emphasis is matter of how you wish to train.

Hope it helps,
M.Dasargo

[Aeturnal]

hey that actually does help a bit, thank you :)

[scholar]

I agree with the above that all martial arts have internal and external aspects, just different emphases on their order of training. We all have opinions, though, and you are going to get as many different answers as there are schools on this one.

Your best bet is to find a teacher who can clearly, physically, demonstrate the difference. If the teacher can't consistently demonstrate an obvious difference, then they can't teach neijia and is likely to be representing a kung fu cult. So, words aren't enough to convey this, you have to be able to see and feel the actual quantitative difference between neijia and waijia.

[qiphlow]

only that one starts with "in" and the other starts with "ex". they're both "ternal"

[mixjourneyman]

internal: has internal force.

How to get internal force?: focus on small movements and body mechanics.

Some people get good and call it jing, qi, shen.
Other people call it precise control over ones body.

Both are equally internal.

I will also agree that a lot of so called external arts have internal mechanics in them.

Internal martial arts require a lot of inner work on both the body and the mind.

Hope that clarifies a bit and adds another dimension to the conversation.

[Fu-Pow]

"Internal" means moving more like an amoeba than a whip. That is, everything moves together like a big sack of water, rather than in separate parts.

The opposite of internal is not external, it is "sectional." Internal is all about timing. All parts move separately, but the timing is such that they all move and work together. In external, you have some parts moving separately, but often some parts are "fused" and not articulated. Also, the timing can be off, so that you create opposing forces in the body.

Internal is very easy to understand in principle, very difficult to execute in practice.

[Buho_Nival]

All the other responses take the traditional path of answering this question...I have heard another explanation though...

Because of the influence of Ta Mo (Bodhidharma) with the Shaolin monks and the development of thier CMA, those systems are said to be external....because they were originated outside of China..externally...and are based on Budda...

The internal systems, however, were developed inside of China...by Chinese families....so they orginated inside of China....internally....and are Tao based....

not my theory...just passing it on.....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Goal: to acquire the most effective self-defense system..
The paths in question: internal or external..
The evidence: The highest demonstrations of each path..
The variables: Time, amount of time necessary to cultivate skills representative of high levels of either path.. The cost, in money, in harm received during training, in requirements of the teacher(s) that a student adopt their beliefs, the student's agendas.. available resources/teachers..

Both paths have remarkable demonstrations of high-level skills.. there are frauds in both paths, cults.. Typically, the external path is substantially shorter in gaining effective skills, not always, though.. Typically, the internal path is more well-rounded, with medicine, healing and character development, not always, though..

The first step: Sincere evaluation of the student's goals, sincere research and awareness of hype..

Some of my experiences: that external focuses on alignment and muscular control/development.. Internal focuses of cultivation and refinement of the energies that power the muscles and senses.. both focus of technique, both retain techniques that are not particularly useful in today's reality.. There some styles that try, with some success, to balance internal/external..

I think balance is the key..

Be well...

[CFT]

The opposite of internal is not external, it is "sectional." Internal is all about timing. All parts move separately, but the timing is such that they all move and work together. In external, you have some parts moving separately, but often some parts are "fused" and not articulated. Also, the timing can be off, so that you create opposing forces in the body.I've only got a fraction of your training time so I am sticking my neck out to disagree with these particular comments. If "externalist" did not move with coordinated whole-body movements then they would have very little power in their strikes.

[Fu-Pow]

I've only got a fraction of your training time so I am sticking my neck out to disagree with these particular comments. If "externalist" did not move with coordinated whole-body movements then they would have very little power in their strikes.

Its not that "externalists" don't use "whole body power" its how the body is utilized. In internal arts there is more articulation of joints, muscles and tendons and once you have that articulation, there are more parts of the body that are moving as separate parts. The next step is to "time" these parts so that they are moving in concert and in the right spatial relationship to each other.

In reality, all of these aspects are trained at the same time: articulation, timing and spatial relationship. That is why internal arts are practiced slowly at first because there is so much to focus on and if you were doing it quickly you would miss alot of the subtleties.

As an aside, I don't understand people that say "there is no division between internal and external." This simply isn't true. Internal is more complex, its harder to learn but I think the rewards are greater. I practiced external martial arts for 10+ years (Choy Lay Fut) and I've practiced internal (Hun Yuan Taiji) for almost as long. I can tell you that practicing external martial arts will in some ways impede your ability in internal martial arts because while you might think you are "whole body" there are many layers to "whole body" and external only scratches the surface.

[SPJ]

this is a very big topic.

internal and external training or practice methods may not go one without the other.

yes there are differences.

first there is the forms/xing structure practice.

2nd there is the conducting/transferring Jing/power practice.

finally there is the releasing or power issueing practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6zKXUChm-E

:cool:

[mawali]

There is no difference. Internal and external refers to levels of training meaning when you first start out with no reference point you build the posture characteristics, the balance, the bag work, 2 man drill and the basics. These are external. It may extend to punching and kicking but as you train harder, these tasks become part of you.
Over time, you go beyond the response of attack but you redirect, avoid, parry and these become the attack. You are more fluid, more direct and you mations become barely visible. You will be able to tell the skill of someone just by assessing them and that is the basis of the internal!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Fu Pow nailed it beautifully with laymans language- hard to do.




Over time, you go beyond the response of attack but you redirect, avoid, parry and these become the attack. You are more fluid, more direct and you mations become barely visible. You will be able to tell the skill of someone just by assessing them and that is the basis of the internal!
That could explain a good, fast Western Boxer. Still not Internal. For that, you need the Six Harmonies and Neigong. VERY FEW systems include both in thier entirety, and more importantly, thier context to fighting. The styles that do, are usually labeled "Neijia".

Redundant, I know, but there are many pretenders to the throne that would have people thinking erroneously. Six Harmonies, Neigong, period. To my knowledge, the list of styles that include these is short, but would include:

Xingyi/Xin Yi
Bagua
Taiji
Liu He Ba Fa
Yiquan
and SOME lines of Mantis, TongBei, Baji, and White Crane, and certain "closed-door" animal styles that we'll probably never see in the west.

Do your homework on Neigong and the Six Harmonies to see the difference. Now, I should make it clear that these two components certainly DO NOT make a style better, though some proponents and pretenders might say otherwise. A good fighter is good because he/she found what works for them.

[Fu-Pow]

Well put.

FP

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Experience is the key.. whether internal or external.. for either to be considered valid, they must have tested their training in situations that closely approximate real combat.. I am always amused whenever we have our local "push meets", a once a month meeting of people from any style/school for pushing, no judges or points, just the experience of testing it.. there are so many players that rely on "rules" to control the experience.. some complain that the action is too fast, or that someone moved their feet too much, or that someone is using too much force.. cripe, that's the purpose, to move toward a combat version of Taiji principles.. it a player finds something they have difficulties dealing with, it's better to find it in friendly play that in actual combat, now you have the opportunity to fix it..

It is extraordinarily difficult to transfer the slow rythmnic movements of Taiji to 70-80% combat speed.. it is equally difficult to deal with 70-80% of the opponent's expressed force compared to the usual 20-30% used in most training scenarios.. but, that is where Taiji SHOULD emerge as the desired discipline.. Taiji is based on the theories of Yin AND Yang.. hard AND soft.. balance.. Certainly, Taiji has a difference in its expression of hard Jing as compared to an external expression.. but it IS hard jing and if it's not trained to the point that it is internalized, it will not easily manifest when it's actually needed.. Listening, adhering, sticking, following is not an easy task at 80% combat action.. it requires much testing at that level..

One observable difference between internal and external is the level of control.. external, generally, has an approach of total domination and destruction.. the intention is clear and definable.. internal, generally, matches the opponent's speed/force and generates controlling techniques, adding just enough to control the situation.. relaxed and deceptive.. Cultivating a practical understanding of balance, alignment, force vectors, and "human nature" is a key component of internal dynamics.. training to the point that your movements are smooth, relaxed and natural conceals the application and the potential of those movements.. one of my mentors moves with such grace that i seldom sense the urgency needed to counter his applications, there is no apparent threat until it's too late..

Whole-body movements without extensions of arms or hardness in the hands is difficult to discern as threatening, and.. as my legs and waist support the relaxed upper body, the opponent feels no need to make quick defensive adjustments.. and, if i am sufficiently skilled, when the opponent realizes the threat, it is their reaction to it that completes the technique.. THEY give the application its power, i just set it up.. Where an external player seeks to destroy the opponents guard and defenses, an internal player knows that the same guard and defense gives the opponent a sense of security, we tend to leave it in place and use it to our advantage..

If you were to hold your body rigidly straight and fall forward, do you reach out an hit the floor to control the impact? No, you reach out and bring the floor to you in a controlled use of Peng.. this a basic difference of internal vs, external.. external hits, internal applies controlled force.. If you jump off a 5 ft. high wall do you stiffen the legs for impact, no.. you absorb the force in a controlled folding of the legs.. Peng.. Your hands are like the bumper of an auto, they manifest great power without moving out ahead of the auto.. they are powered by a good engine (energy) and its relationship through the wheels (feet) to the ground.. the steering wheel is like the waist, directing the hands.. and the driver is the mind that controls it all.. when you push an auto do you fix the legs and torso, pushing only with the arms and hands?.. no, it is an integrated whole body effort.. many of my classes spend some time pushing on a wall, if a line between the heels is parallel to the wall an "arm" push will move the pusher backward.. but, pushing with the legs and torso while keeping the arms in the same spatial relationship to the body will generate much force with little effort.. and, opposite reaction force is directed downward, further stabilizing the rooting.. this is a great exercise for self-evaluation...

Be well..

[Al S.]

Greetings -

My name is Al Simon. It's been about 4 years or so since I've posted on the Tai Chi board. Hello to any of you old-timers still around.

There are two other classical meanings of "internal/external" you may wish to consider. You'll find these in older writings by Chinese masters.

One meaning of "internal vs. external" was locality of origin. Among older Chinese masters, arts like Tai Chi were considered internal because they were developed or primarily influenced by ideas that originated in China. Kung Fu was considered external, because it was heavily influenced by Buddhism, whose teachings came from outside China.

For many of these older masters, that is all internal and external meant. Internal meant "within China", external meant "outside China". For example, Tai Chi Master Cheng Man Ching in his New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation, explicitly says that's how to tell an internal from an external system.

Another classical meaning of internal/external you may find in older writings is in relation to the body trunk or torso. External systems are said to focus primarily on the use of the limbs (that is, the body parts that are "external" to the trunk), while internal systems focus on the trunk itself.

That meaning still carries through in part to today in distinguishing internal from external Qigong styles. Internal ("nei-dan") Qigong styles focus on the "chi storage areas" which are mostly in the torso, while external ("wai-dan") Qigong styles focus on the chi meridian system, which reaches out to the limbs.

Those are just two of the many meanings of external and internal I've encountered over the last 30 years of Qigong, Tai Chi, and martial arts.

Best wishes,
Al

[QuaiJohnCain]

Greetings -
There are two other classical meanings of "internal/external" you may wish to consider. You'll find these in older writings by Chinese masters.
The oldest known is 1893, when Dong Hai Chuan and Cheng Ting Hua coined the titles for MA.


One meaning of "internal vs. external" was locality of origin. Among older Chinese masters, arts like Tai Chi were considered internal because they were developed or primarily influenced by ideas that originated in China. Kung Fu was considered external, because it was heavily influenced by Buddhism, whose teachings came from outside China.
Han racism, nothing more. It was the Buddhists who brought Neigong and the idea of the Six Harmonies into China in the first place....

Like Egg Shen says in "Big Trouble in Little China"- China has Taoism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Magic, Folk Religion, etc, etc. They take what they want, and leave the rest out- like an American salad bar!


For many of these older masters, that is all internal and external meant. Internal meant "within China", external meant "outside China". For example, Tai Chi Master Cheng Man Ching in his New Method of Tai Chi Self-Cultivation, explicitly says that's how to tell an internal from an external system.
This would all be news to the practitioners of 300 or so distinctly Chinese styles that are generally referred to as External..... :eek:



Another classical meaning of internal/external you may find in older writings is in relation to the body trunk or torso. External systems are said to focus primarily on the use of the limbs (that is, the body parts that are "external" to the trunk), while internal systems focus on the trunk itself.
Yup, part of Six Harmonies theory.....


That meaning still carries through in part to today in distinguishing internal from external Qigong styles. Internal ("nei-dan") Qigong styles focus on the "chi storage areas" which are mostly in the torso, while external ("wai-dan") Qigong styles focus on the chi meridian system, which reaches out to the limbs.
This one, you nailed.

Internal = Six Harmonies and Neigong included and integrated into whatever.

[Al S.]

QJC -

Thanks for the feedback.

Dong and Cheng have the first documented "modern" usage of Neijia, used to point out the commonalities among Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi.

But several hundred years before, the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan from 1669 mentions internal vs. external. It uses the terms as I mentioned above, "internal" meant indigenous to China, "external" outside of China.

Whether you call it "racism" or (as one Chen style researcher puts it) "political defiance", the term was used historicially in this context. But the use of the term in that fashion isn't relegated just to history. As recently as 1993-1994, I heard the term defined that way at a workshop by a Master Liang Tung-tsai.

Thanks again,
Al

[Scott R. Brown]

The oldest known is 1893, when Dong Hai Chuan and Cheng Ting Hua coined the titles for MA.

It was the Buddhists who brought Neigong and the idea of the Six Harmonies into China in the first place....

This is most likely not true. They may or may not have popularized the concepts of “internal principles” in highly populated areas, such as Beijing where Dong taught, but neither of them coined the term, originated the principles, and mostly likely were NOT the first to apply the principles to MA.

Reportedly Dong, Hai Chuan learned “something” from a Taoist monk or Taoist monks. These principles and/or exercises by definition then were of Taoist origins. His Inner or Internal principles spring from Taoist teaching that go back millennia. As of the latest scholarship that I am presently aware of, the first mention of “Inner Practice” is found in the mid-fourth century B.C. work entitled Nei-yeh, (Inward Training). This work is considered the oldest presently known written record of Taoist teachings/principles antedating the first known copy of the Tao Te Ching by about 100-200 years. Its purpose is to address the principles and practices that allow one to accommodate themselves to Tao. The poetical structure of Nei-yeh indicates its origins come from an even earlier oral tradition. Within the Nei-yeh, Internal, refers to Mental practices and principles that bring one into accord with Tao.

Nearly universally, early tribal cultures practiced some form of shamanism. The basis and origins of shamanism may be found within human psychology. Shamanism involves the mental or introspective investigation into the landscapes of the mind; the workings and patterns of thought that occur within the human mind and learning how these principles may relate to, interact with, and affect the External world. So shamanism applies psychological (Internal) principles in order to affect the outer (External) world. Taoist Internal practices originated from shamanistic practices and have no origination in Buddhism. However, that is not to say that Buddhist Internal practices did not influence Taoist Internal practices later in history.

Introspection into the mind reveals that all External activities and phenomena originate from within the mind. Once we understand this we may choose to follow the principles of Tao and practice Internal/Mental exercises that allow for the efficient use of our bodies and environment. These principles and practices, when understood and applied effectively, allows one to perform External actions with a minimum of effort. Using a minimum of effort preserves energy. One of the principles of Tao is the conservation of energy. Energy is to be cultivated, stored and used in a manner that limits useless and inefficient expenditures. The Internal/Mental, principles of Tao are the Internal/Mental principles that are the foundation of Internal MA.

So Internal training is training that springs from an understanding that all External actions and phenomena originate within the mind. Internal training has as its basis, the principles of Tao, and the training of the mind first and the application of External, physical, techniques second. Mind BEFORE body. When we apply Internal principles to any External activity we are practicing an Internal Art as Chuang-tzu illustrates in his story of the butcher who artfully carves with a minimum of effort.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Scott- Just about everything you said matches up with the practices imported from India to China....

Taoism is not very unique when put next to Buddhism, nor is there a solid dividing line between them.... Chicken-Egg-dead-end as far as the purity arguement is concerned.

Seems here that there is one crowd that wants to make the definition of "Internal", arbitrary to thier wishes, and another group that seeks common ground and hard line parameters to define it.

That said, it's horn tootin' time, or so it seems....

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi QJC,

SOME of the principles of Ch’an and Taoism became infused with each other later in history NOT when the principles found in the Nei-yeh were written down. There are similarities AND differences between the Taoism and Buddhism. One method prescribed for attaining accord with Tao is very similar to the "mirror-washing" method of Southern Ch'an.

Buddhism entered China about 1 AD not 400 BC. The Nei-yeh is dated to about the middle of the 4th century B.C.. This date is a couple hundred years after the birth of Buddha; however it is considered part of a much older oral tradition. How far back the tradition goes is speculation at this time. It would not be a stretch to consider the principles addressed may go back 1,000 years or more. The principles are similar to those found in shamanistic practices which predate history. Shamanistic practices appear to be universal to tribal societies and involve introspection into the landscapes of the mind. This is where the concept of “Inner/Internal” originated. “Inside the mind”, as opposed to “Outside the body” is not that hard to understand and does not take much argument to demonstrate. There is no way to know how far back the principles discussed in the Nei-yeh go. It is currently spurious to assume that the principles originated in India. Just because India had some similar philosophical/spiritual concepts does not demonstrate dissemination FROM India only that the principles clearly represent a common human experience that may be apprehended by anyone who chooses to look for them.

While Ch’an thought clearly had an influence on Taoism and vise versa it would be incorrect to assume that this tradition comes from India or Buddhism. It comes down to the “dissemination from a single source” versus the “simultaneous, independent discovery” views. At any rate, these details are only important if one is interested in the history of a thought system, but not very important to those who are more interested in learning and applying the principles. Truth is Truth no matter what the source. Truth does not change, only the manner in which it is communicated changes. The deeper teachings of many religions are similar to each other once the cultural variances are taken into account. This is because they are founded upon the common experiences that represent the Truth according to personal and cultural differences.

It is not really important in the grand scheme of things how we define internal or external. There is no fixed definition to any word. Words do not define their meanings for us, we determine their meanings. Word meanings vary over time and usage. It is the current colloquial usage that determines a word’s meaning at the time of history it is used. When we use a word that may be interpreted in a number of ways it is important to define how we intend the word to be used within the context of our discussion. I am sure the terms Internal and External have meant different things to different MA throughout history. However, if we want to address what may be considered the ‘original” meaning of a word according to a specific context then it behooves us to go to the oldest source possible. According to the context of the original question of this thread, the Nei-yeh fulfills this requirement. “Internal” is used in the title of the work and is clearly defined within the context of the work. “Internal” means an inward mental focus; the mind is cultivated in order to affect “External” experience! Since Tai Chi Chuan and Ba Gua are based upon principles of Tao and since they concentrate on mental cultivation in order to affect their external application of technique it is clear that “Internal” refers to this long standing and well defined principle. This is NOT an arbitrary determination; it is based upon well documented principles, meanings and application of the term “Internal” throughout Chinese history.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi QJC,

! Since Tai Chi Chuan and Ba Gua are based upon principles of Tao and since they concentrate on mental cultivation in order to affect their external application of technique it is clear that “Internal” refers to this long standing and well defined principle. This is NOT an arbitrary determination; it is based upon well documented principles, meanings and application of the term “Internal” throughout Chinese history.

If it was that simple we'd all be grand puba grandmasters.

[ftgjr]

This seems to be a topic that can be debated forever.

I have studied what most people explain as internal and external styles.

My best explaination of what I think they mean is that arts like Tai Chi and Xingyi utilize what natural abilities you have. In other words, you don't need to increase your strength, speed or stamina in order to be an effective practitioner. Everything is allready inside you. Internal

Martial arts that require you to built up stamina, speed and strength with running and weight training in order to gain a competitive edge (though some skill and principles do apply). External.

One comparison is my marketing for my business.

The marketing that I do to customers I allready have, I call internal marketing. I allready have them as customer, but can improve my business by keeping in touch with what I allready have.

The marketing I do to attain new customers can also increase my business, but sometimes takes more money and effort. Reaching out for customers I don't have is what I call external marketing.

This is the only way I can explain what I think it is.

[Scott R. Brown]

If it was that simple we'd all be grand puba grandmasters.

Hi Fu-Pow,

I agree it is not necessarily simple to accomplish. Not much worth having in life is easy! I am not sure what in the quote of mine you provided implies I consider it simple!

An earlier comment of mine stated it is simple to understand the reasoning I provided that "Internal" means mental training as opposed to "External" meaning physical training. Perhaps this is what you were addressing?

[QuaiJohnCain]

An earlier comment of mine stated it is simple to understand the reasoning I provided that "Internal" means mental training as opposed to "External" meaning physical training.

I will remind you of something you're overlooking by asking this question: What moves the body? ;)

Six Harmonies.

[SPJ]

there are 2 schools of thoughts:

1. political conspiracy: Qing wanted to divide CMA community, internal is acceptable, external meaning shaolin is banned due to association with restoring Ming and anti Qing.

2. the idea of internal vs external is already in traditional chinese medicine. accupuncture is to help the external, and herbs help internal etc, surgery is external and the rest is internal medicine.

breathing exercise or Qi Gong is internal, Bodhidarma passed 2 types of exercise, one is tendon exchange and the other is bone marrow washing. they are exercises to help the monks to strengthen themself from internally changing tendon and washing the bone marrow, to help the external which are muscles and bones, etc.

--

internal and external are inseparable.

--

[Scott R. Brown]

I will remind you of something you're overlooking by asking this question: What moves the body? ;)

Six Harmonies.

Hi QJC,

All things originate from Mind. Without Mind we have nothing else. Mind is the essence, core, or root of all things. While the six harmonies include it in a list, it is a separate, or perhaps all encompassing, principle from which the other harmonies spring. Without Mind the other harmonies are meaningless!

[mantis108]

Hi QJC,

All things originate from Mind. Without Mind we have nothing else. Mind is the essence, core, or root of all things. While the six harmonies include it in a list, it is a separate, or perhaps all encompassing, principle from which the other harmonies spring. Without Mind the other harmonies are meaningless!

Six Harmonies in effect is a group of qualitive functional relationships which as you pointed out is "supported" or encompassed by the mind (heart). In general, people would describe it as a chain expression:

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention) + Yi (intention) <=> Qi (intrinsic energy) + Qi (intrinsic energy) <=> Li (strength/power)

There are 4 elements to this 3 links chain or spectrum (3 internal harmonies) which are Xin, Yi, Qi, and Li. This IMHO is related to the Ch'an lesson of the moving flag. Is the flag that moves, or is it the wind moves. The answer is most likely that it's the mind that moves. BTW, the entire 6 harmonies spectrum has a total of 10 elements (4 energy related and 6 matter related). Just a thought

Warm regards

Mantis108

[imperialtaichi]

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention)



Just to stir things up a bit ;)

How do you make sure the Yi is coming from the heart (Xin) and not the head?

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Six Harmonies in effect is a group of qualitive functional relationships which as you pointed out is "supported" or encompassed by the mind (heart). In general, people would describe it as a chain expression:

Xin (heart/mind) <=> Yi (intention) + Yi (intention) <=> Qi (intrinsic energy) + Qi (intrinsic energy) <=> Li (strength/power)

There are 4 elements to this 3 links chain or spectrum (3 internal harmonies) which are Xin, Yi, Qi, and Li. This IMHO is related to the Ch'an lesson of the moving flag. Is the flag that moves, or is it the wind moves. The answer is most likely that it's the mind that moves. BTW, the entire 6 harmonies spectrum has a total of 10 elements (4 energy related and 6 matter related). Just a thought

Warm regards

Mantis108

Hi Manits108,

Good Points! I agree with you! Thank you for your contribution. :)

The mind is the root, source, essence of all things. This is what the term "Internal" refers to when applied to the traditionally accepted internal MA. I re-emphasis that "Internal" when defined as "originating from the mind", applies to all actions/arts, not just the MA! When we master this principle we are able to perform all actions with more grace, less energy, greater efficiency, and better effectiveness.

[Scott R. Brown]

Just to stir things up a bit ;)

How do you make sure the Yi is coming from the heart (Xin) and not the head?

Cheers,
John

LOL!! Practice! ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Actually, when our thoughts occur discursively, that is, occur in a linear (word) fashion, they are originating from the head, when our thoughts occur without form (no-mind) they originate from the heart.

[mantis108]

Just to stir things up a bit ;)

How do you make sure the Yi is coming from the heart (Xin) and not the head?

Cheers,
John

I am not sure if you are aware of the study that the cell tissues of the heart is not dissimilar to the brian? Also it's not just the brain and the heart, there are also scientific evidences to suggest that the intestines are "intelligent" center of the human body much like the brain as well. So... This means we literally can "think" not only with our brain but also with the heart intuitively and possibly intestines as well. ;)

I have to agree with Scott that in "thinking" in terms of sensory speech pattern which is often dualistic in nature that would be the function of the brain. But intuitive "thinking" or "seeing", the heart is non dualistic. If we can only listen (different from hearing) to that little voice from the bottom of our heart more often, the world may be a much more peaceful place.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SPJ]

the idea was that we have warm blood thus we have emotions or 7 feelings and 6 desires.

heart is where the warm blood "pumped" from.

brain is rational and analytical or the cool/cold one.

thus Xin is your desire/wishes, whatever you feel, love/hate, disgust, disappointment etc.

--

[Fu-Pow]

The Chinese word Xin means mind but the ancient Chinese believed that the mind resided in the heart so the character for mind is the same as heart (correct me if I'm wrong). Moderns believe that the mind resides in the brain. I say "believe" because "the mind" is kind of an amorphous entity without spatial-temporal location. Perhaps a better word is conciousness. From my perspective, there are different levels of conciousness: biological, mental and spiritual. The problem in modern Western society is that our bodies, minds and spirits are doing different things, going in different directions. (IMO because Western religion for a long time has denied the body.) The point of internal arts is to bring those elements of our being into alignment.... for a martial purpose.

FP

[RonH]

Actually, when our thoughts occur discursively, that is, occur in a linear (word) fashion, they are originating from the head, when our thoughts occur without form (no-mind) they originate from the heart.

Then, let me put a question to you that deals with a not MA act...and more importantly because it's been bugging me ever since I first saw your avatar.

Every time I see that sodding thing, my mind gets dragged and focused on the top part and I think the whole picture's a whale. Nowhere else, were I to see a yin yang symbol, would I think that. Only here. And every time I think it's a whale, it drives me nuts because I realize once again, it isn't a whale. Would this be a thought originating from the heart?

I think you're talking about logical linear progression thinking as opposed to emotional thinking that isn't as linear for determining origin, but I thought it'd be a good question because this is driving me nuts, no offense.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi RonH,

LOL!! I never saw the whale until you mentioned it. First a little back story: I actually created that Yin-Yang myself from scratch with Photoshop and another program; I drew and positioned the circles, then filled them in and used the lens plugin to get the 3 dimensional curve and used some lights and gloss for the reflections. I tried to use a gif animator to get it to rotate, but as it turns out it is slightly off center so it appears lopsided when it rotates.

In truth, the whale is created in your own mind and projected onto the symbol. If you had never seen a whale you wouldn’t and couldn’t see one in the symbol. Your mind is responding to the figure and projecting a familiar pattern onto it. It is creating a sense of order out of disorder. Even though the figure possesses a sense of inherent order, there is enough disorder in it according to your perception that allows you to project something onto the figure that does not inherently exist. Since I created the symbol from scratch, and had a fixed idea of what I wanted to create, I was not able to perceive what you perceive until you mentioned it. My preconceived notions about the figure prevented me of seeing anything else. One of the qualities of the discursive mind is the imposition of order onto apparent chaos which is nothing more than the recognition of, or projection of patterns within the mind onto the world. Indeed patterns exist in the world system as well, but it is the mind and its conditioning that determines how we will perceive and interpret those patterns. My preconceived notions about the figure determined my perception for me while your mind was free enough to perceive it differently. This is one advantage of having interaction with other minds. We all perceive life differently; through interaction we have the opportunity to expand our own perspective and the perspectives of others. This increases the quality of our experiences.

The perception of a whale is not from heart thinking, but from the discursive mind. The discursive mind is an integral part of the world of form. It creates form out of chaos and influences what we will perceive and how we will perceive it. It is conditioned into us from birth. The language we learn as a child contributes to the way we interpret the world because it creates the foundation of our thinking process. The limitations of our birth language influence how we construct our ideas about the world and project those ideas onto the world system. Our world system view is created by the language we learn combined with the conditioning we receive about the world from our environment. The limits of our language and our environmental conditioning determine our experience by controlling what we perceive, creating our value system and influencing what we consider possible to occur.

Inherently our thoughts occur amorphously (no-mind) and are translated into linear form by our conditioned mind in order to communicate our thoughts and feelings to others. The linear manner of our language imposes time or creates the appearance of time, in the world system. If we communicated with no-mind thought transference would be immediate and no time would occur between the thought and the apprehension of the thought. In this state of being nothing exists however because there is nothing to perceive the thought. The thought and the perceiver are one, there is no subject or object, therefore there is no time, no me and you. For there to be subject and object, me and other, there must be two. Once we have two, order spontaneously arises. Once order occurs, time spontaneously arises and language or some other form of communication becomes necessary for one object to communicate with another. Hence discursive thought arises as a tool to communicate between two seemingly separate parts of an inherent whole. It is a game Tao plays with itself.

One of the purposes of meditation is to assist us in transcending the limitations imposed upon our minds through linear conditioning. Heart thinking as I have defined it, many would have other definitions that work for them, is the instantaneous knowing and understanding that occurs when there is no subject or object. This is no-mind, but has also been called Thusness, Suchness, Isness, etc.

Emotional thinking should not be confused with heart thinking (as I have defined it). The emotions of hate, fear, anger, are mutually arising with confusion in the mind. Each helps to create and enhances the other. The more confusion, the more hate, fear and anger occur. The more hate, fear and anger we possess the more the mind becomes obstructed and clear perception becomes impossible. The emotions of elation, joy and happiness are merely the corollaries of hate, fear and anger and contribute to obstructed perception as well.

All emotions, whether considered positive or negative, create obstruction to clear perception. That is why the Tao Te Ching teaches that Tao treats all things as if they were straw men. That is, treats all things dispassionately. When all things are treated dispassionately all things are treated with equity according their proper context. This means that something that may appear unequal from the world system perspective may actually be equal treatment, or a balancing consequence, according to the principles of Tao. This is because Tao seeks balance.

When our perception and understanding are limited by our obstructed mind we cannot perceive that imbalance creates a spontaneous response of return to balance often with disastrous consequences. That is, an action causes a subsequent reaction. This is one of the reasons war and natural disasters occur. They are a consequence of imbalance. When we do not understand the big picture due to our obstructed perception we interpret events according to our incomplete perception. As a consequence men seek to contrive solutions to problems that do not conform to the principles of Tao and unexpected negative consequences result. A contrived attempt to return to balance tends to exceed balance and an over compensating imbalance results. The consequences of the contrivances of those bound to the world system may be transcended when we choose to avoid emotional attached to the world system. Inner balance is the key to influencing the world system towards outer balance. The internal (mind) affects the external (world).

I think of contrived world system activities as pebbles dropped into a pond. The more pebbles dropped into the pond the more ripples are created. The result is a chaotic interaction of ripples that antagonize each other. An unobstructed, calm mind does not interfere with the chaos and thus does not contribute to it. The act of forcing calmness on a chaotic system is a contrivance that creates greater chaos. If we attempt to press down on the water to level it by force all we do is create more waves and thus greater chaos. An unobstructed, calm mind avoids contributing to the overall chaos by not participating in it and thus in an indirect manner contributes to a calmer more harmonious world system. This results because it is in conformance to the principles of Tao. The Tao Te Ching teaches: Tao influences all things by doing nothing and not imposing itself onto anything, thus all things are completed.

[RonH]

Okay, I no longer see the whale out of the corner of my eye. I see a whale when I look directly at it and I really gotta force myself to see that it's the yin yang symbol. Odd.

[Scott R. Brown]

Okay, I no longer see the whale out of the corner of my eye. I see a whale when I look directly at it and I really gotta force myself to see that it's the yin yang symbol. Odd.

LOL!! Well that is ok. It means you are not constrained by the standard conditioning of society. Your mind perceives order, at least in part, according to its own unique conditioning.

Years ago I knew a lady who had never heard of a Rorschach test. When she was given the test her mind projected order onto the white portions, not the ink blots!

Some people believe the original Yin-Yang figure, or one of the older representations of Yin-Yang, was two fish. It has been years since I have looked into the matter so I do not recall the details, but apparently there is some basis for your perception in the history of the figure.

[shaolin_allan]

there are no actual 'internal' only styles. internal is used to refer to three main branches of styles including taijiquan,xingyiquan,and baguazhang. Many styles have internal and external aspects in both northern and southern. The three I mentioned develop power through chi gong exercises to use throughout their body both for health and combative purposes and outside of xingyiquan, are softer styles meaning the movements are based on flexibility and fluidity. Both taijiquan and baguazhang like aikido redirect force and taijiquan is good at reissuing it back to the opponent. xingyiquan itself meets force on force like so called 'external' styles. the difference is as it looks external, once again its power and energy is rooted through the body and comes out the fists and feet to generate the power.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I was thinking about the internal/external references and their relationships.. it occurs to me that "external" typically objectifies the situation.. "internal" typically considers a situation as a unified experience, the governing characteristic being the more harmoniously the observer interacts with the event..

I very sincerely bow to the intellectual knowledge displayed by so many of the posters here.. but, at the end of the day, the value gained is from application of the knowledge through direct experience.. discussions of this or that style having this or that characteristic is only valid in its conceptual form.. the defining evidence is in direct experience, the crossing of hands.. the results are often unquantifiable, regardless of win or lose.. i am often amazed at the most knowledgable of Taiji players when hands are crossed, the concepts disappear in front of a live opponent.. likewise, i am impressed when i see someone maintain their training even in defeat, they are building a body of experience from which to better understand the application of the knowledge.. it speaks of someone's faith in their chosen path..

A principle of "internal arts" is to "invest in loss".. that through abandoning the ego's need to win we can evaluate the situation more clearly and learn more effectively.. An observable characteristic of "external" systems is the "win at all costs" approach.. where the techniques seem to disappear under pressure.. that is one of the signatures i use to identify differences between internal/external.. over time students will display either learning skills or winning skills.. and, after a time, like the "Tortoise and the Hare", the "learner" typically overtakes and surpasses the "winner"...

Just an observation.. Be well..

[RonH]

LOL!! Well that is ok. It means you are not constrained by the standard conditioning of society. Your mind perceives order, at least in part, according to its own unique conditioning.

Years ago I knew a lady who had never heard of a Rorschach test. When she was given the test her mind projected order onto the white portions, not the ink blots!

Some people believe the original Yin-Yang figure, or one of the older representations of Yin-Yang, was two fish. It has been years since I have looked into the matter so I do not recall the details, but apparently there is some basis for your perception in the history of the figure.

I remember right around the time I first saw the symbol, I also saw fish like right next to it, but these days it looks more like energy balls...of course, after the whale thing.

[Fu-Pow]

Here is a very good description of the difference between internal and external:

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/index.htm

"By only maintaining one point of substantial contact with the ground you gain the ability to move quickly, much like a ball which moves easily across the ground because it only has one point of contact with it. The idea is to lower your centre of gravity to your proper centre which is at the Tan Tien, there it should have a net downward force but is "hung" from the torso in the correct location. This would give you a centred but light feeling. If you are trying to get your centre to the root of your feet, that is not centredness. Ask yourself where the centre of your body should be and there is where the mass of the centre should be.

Some information on the external and internal methodologies adopted to train this: The external way of training is to force the centre down as far as it can go and then slowly the reaction force from the ground would build up the musculature to support the downward force back up to where it should be centred. The internal method would be to centre the centre of gravity first, get a proper structure to support it and when that is done then slowly lower the stance through time to foster proper development without sacrificing efficient structure and alignment."

[msg]

i think the easy way to put it that external relys on the muscle mosty for power internal relys on the chi and proper structure rely the biger you are doe not mean you hit harder

[Water-quan]

This is most likely not true. They may or may not have popularized the concepts of “internal principles” in highly populated areas, such as Beijing where Dong taught, but neither of them coined the term, originated the principles, and mostly likely were NOT the first to apply the principles to MA.

Reportedly Dong, Hai Chuan learned “something” from a Taoist monk or Taoist monks. These principles and/or exercises by definition then were of Taoist origins. His Inner or Internal principles spring from Taoist teaching that go back millennia. As of the latest scholarship that I am presently aware of, the first mention of “Inner Practice” is found in the mid-fourth century B.C. work entitled Nei-yeh, (Inward Training). This work is considered the oldest presently known written record of Taoist teachings/principles antedating the first known copy of the Tao Te Ching by about 100-200 years. Its purpose is to address the principles and practices that allow one to accommodate themselves to Tao. The poetical structure of Nei-yeh indicates its origins come from an even earlier oral tradition. Within the Nei-yeh, Internal, refers to Mental practices and principles that bring one into accord with Tao.

Nearly universally, early tribal cultures practiced some form of shamanism. The basis and origins of shamanism may be found within human psychology. Shamanism involves the mental or introspective investigation into the landscapes of the mind; the workings and patterns of thought that occur within the human mind and learning how these principles may relate to, interact with, and affect the External world. So shamanism applies psychological (Internal) principles in order to affect the outer (External) world. Taoist Internal practices originated from shamanistic practices and have no origination in Buddhism. However, that is not to say that Buddhist Internal practices did not influence Taoist Internal practices later in history.

Introspection into the mind reveals that all External activities and phenomena originate from within the mind. Once we understand this we may choose to follow the principles of Tao and practice Internal/Mental exercises that allow for the efficient use of our bodies and environment. These principles and practices, when understood and applied effectively, allows one to perform External actions with a minimum of effort. Using a minimum of effort preserves energy. One of the principles of Tao is the conservation of energy. Energy is to be cultivated, stored and used in a manner that limits useless and inefficient expenditures. The Internal/Mental, principles of Tao are the Internal/Mental principles that are the foundation of Internal MA.

So Internal training is training that springs from an understanding that all External actions and phenomena originate within the mind. Internal training has as its basis, the principles of Tao, and the training of the mind first and the application of External, physical, techniques second. Mind BEFORE body. When we apply Internal principles to any External activity we are practicing an Internal Art as Chuang-tzu illustrates in his story of the butcher who artfully carves with a minimum of effort.


Hi Scott - thanks for that, it was really interesting. You might like this article:

http://www.jiayo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4029

on a similar interpretation of internal and external. I know for a fact that these guys are influenced by shamanic stuff as well.

WQ

[Walter Joyce]

check out the post by wuyizidi here.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1174568079