about Bruce Lee

[Aeturnal]

im just curious about his fighting record. did he ever beat anyone noteworthy? i really dont wanna start another MMA vs. CMA debate but im just curious as to whether he ever fought any wrestlers or grapplers or anyone in that field. im sure if he was around today he would have faired well in the climate of the fighting competition out there today?

[MASTERforge]

I read somewhere that he beat a guy up on th set of enter the dragon. The guy had been giving him grief for a while and challenged him. Apparently he made short work of the guy. I don't know if this is actually true of a good piece of marketing.

As far as I am aware he never entered competitions. Wing Chun guys say his muscle conditioning was more for the camera than for martial arts. He also looks very thin on camera.

I would imagine he was super fast but not too strong. This is all hyperthetical though as he was long dead before I was even born.

I don't think he would have stood a chance in a MMA comp because of his size and weight. Maybe he would in his own weight/size devisions.

I thought perhaps chuck norris trained with him after seeing him fight?

This part of his life I think is kept quite secret to preserve the legend.

[lunghushan]

Bruce Lee was obviously the best martial artist of all time. He beat up all those guys on the screen, so he must be good.

In addition, he studied like 30 styles to make up JKD, and he studied all of then in their depth and entirety. It took him like 50 or more years to do that, before deciding traditional styles were crap, and creating JKD.

He died so young in his early 30s. Such a tragedy for an obviously so great martial artist.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I had a face-to-face conversation with Dan Inosanto back in 1979 when he visited the wing chun school I was a student at here in NYC....(Moy Yat).

He said that behind closed doors Bruce had sparred with guys like Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, Louis Del Gado, and some others.

He said that the "match" with Chuck Norris was particularly notable - and "embarrassing to watch" (Dan's exact words).

He said that Bruce punched and kicked Chuck all around the room.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It was said in another thread that he got owned by a guy who wears a pink gi. LeBell...yeah....yeah, yeah.....that's his name.



mickey

[NJM]

In addition, he studied like 30 styles to make up JKD, and he studied all of then in their depth and entirety. It took him like 50 or more years to do that, before deciding traditional styles were crap, and creating JKD.


You know that he didn't even want it to be a new style, right?

[lunghushan]

You know that he didn't even want it to be a new style, right?

Yeah, he wrote a book about how styles sucked and then filled the book about how he fought and what worked. Creating his own style.

LOL LOL LOL

Bottom line he was an actor numbskull. If he hadn't have died he'd be in late 60s now and everybody would be laughing at how his students don't win MMA tournaments.

[couch]

Bottom line he was an actor numbskull. If he hadn't have died he'd be in late 60s now and everybody would be laughing at how his students don't win MMA tournaments.

That's classic.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[NJM]

Yeah, he wrote a book about how styles sucked and then filled the book about how he fought and what worked. Creating his own style.

LOL LOL LOL

Bottom line he was an actor numbskull. If he hadn't have died he'd be in late 60s now and everybody would be laughing at how his students don't win MMA tournaments.

Lol, I love it when Instructors brainwash their students to hate certain people and think them fakes.

[lunghushan]

Lol, I love it when Instructors brainwash their students to hate certain people and think them fakes.

Yeah, it's even better when people think because somebody acts on a screen that they really are that character in real life.

I mean, you've probably had some martial arts training by now, right? Have you ever seen anybody in MA hopping up and down on their toes and doing stuff like Bruce Lee did? Yelling 'hee-iii' and making lots of weird noises?

Probably not, right? They make noise in karate class, but that's about it, and nothing like Bruce Lee did.

Does anybody really know he was that good? Did he run around winning tournaments like Chuck Norris? The whole thing with Wong Jack Man in the movie Dragon was a load of B.S. There was no bunch of people saying he shouldn't teach, no challenge, no broken back, no re-challenge. There was one closed door fight and nobody from either side agrees what happened because it was closed, not in a big tournament setting.

Bruce Lee supposedly hurt his back in TRAINING ... LIFTING WEIGHTS.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106770/goofs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Jeet_Kune_Do

Wong Jack Man issued a public challenge when Bruce claimed he won, for a public setting, but the public fight never happened. Linda Lee evidently has a great imagination.

BTW, look at his filmography for a moment. He was in movies literally since he was a baby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_lee

[lonewolf]

bruce won chinese boxing tournaments when he was still living in china. after he moved to the US he stopped entering in tournaments. whatever his record was at the time it was good enough to open respectable schools, three of his students would go on to win the world karate titles while he was alive. chuck norris, joe lewis and some other guy. as for being unbeatable we have all had our time of losing. bruce learned martial arts to stop getting beat up. we all have been there. those of you that think your so great can look at your own past.
yes bruce was a movie star but when you have so many student that go on to achieve such success that ends up reflecting back on the teacher. bruce sparred with the best in the world at the time he was teaching and did so twice a week on a regular schedule. if that wouldn't make you one of the best in the world i don't know what would.
as for wrestlers, we know he studied the art since it was added to JKD and demonstrated in his movies. as for being on record i'm sure it's not listed. i have most of his books and there is nothing in there. :(

[lunghushan]

bruce won chinese boxing tournaments when he was still living in china. after he moved to the US he stopped entering in tournaments. whatever his record was at the time it was good enough to open respectable schools, three of his students would go on to win the world karate titles while he was alive. chuck norris, joe lewis and some other guy. as for being unbeatable we have all had our time of losing. bruce learned martial arts to stop getting beat up. we all have been there. those of you that think your so great can look at your own past.
yes bruce was a movie star but when you have so many student that go on to achieve such success that ends up reflecting back on the teacher. bruce sparred with the best in the world at the time he was teaching and did so twice a week on a regular schedule. if that wouldn't make you one of the best in the world i don't know what would.
as for wrestlers, we know he studied the art since it was added to JKD and demonstrated in his movies. as for being on record i'm sure it's not listed. i have most of his books and there is nothing in there. :(

It's kindof weird that such revisionist history would make people think it's true. For one thing, Chuck Norris was winning tournaments before he even met Bruce Lee.

Bruce Lee was a DANCE Champion in China, not a martial arts champion.

BTW, Chuck Norris brought BJJ to the U.S., so if anybody was instrumental in creating 'MMA', it was Chuck Norris.

But bottom line I think it's obvious that there's no way to have an intelligent discussion about such a heated topic.

[jethro]

Is lunghushan really Aeturnal?

[msg]

bruce lee was a dance champion and not a ma champ where did you learn your history saying bruce was not a ma champ all the thing you have sayed are pretty much ignorant ..even chuck said he was one of the best .bruce trained since he was a little boy .he didnt start training because he was geting beat up ..people need to do more research before talking about a subject they think they know about .iam not mad on the topic i just dont think people do enough research and find the truth on things

[DaveTart]

BTW, Chuck Norris brought BJJ to the U.S., so if anybody was instrumental in creating 'MMA', it was Chuck Norris.

Well, sort of. He invited some BJJ guys over to give a seminar:

http://theultima.com/Jiujitsu.html

[lunghushan]

bruce lee was a dance champion and not a ma champ where did you learn your history saying bruce was not a ma champ all the thing you have sayed are pretty much ignorant ..even chuck said he was one of the best .bruce trained since he was a little boy .he didnt start training because he was geting beat up ..people need to do more research before talking about a subject they think they know about .iam not mad on the topic i just dont think people do enough research and find the truth on things

I DID research. He won the colonies Cha Cha championship at the age of 18 in 1958.

I don't think you've researched. If you can find any evidence of him entering any tournaments and winning or anything, please let me know.

[msg]

i know he was a dancer but he was trianing in kung.fu first.and back then a lot of tournaments were not recorded like they are now .i have read and looked up every thing you could on bruce lee and his life .among other popular and historical teachers its a hobby of mine

[Yao Sing]

The whole thing with Wong Jack Man in the movie Dragon was a load of B.S. There was no bunch of people saying he shouldn't teach,

I have it on good authority that there was but I'll leave it to you to find out who.


whatever his record was at the time it was good enough to open respectable schools, three of his students would go on to win the world karate titles while he was alive. chuck norris, joe lewis and some other guy.

I believe Chuck was a BB in Tang Soo Do and Joe was a BB in Shotokan(?) neither of which are Kung fu. Chuck was already a full contact champ which is why they selected him for Enter The Dragon.


Bruce Lee was a DANCE Champion in China, not a martial arts champion.

So it's impossible to be both? Sure he was into dance and won but he was also into martial arts and won. Just because you can do it doesn't mean someone else can't.

[iron tiger]

And von Damme was a tournament "champion"--in Brussells, was it?--too...according to his Hollywood resume (before people started looking into it a little more closely).

[NJM]

Yeah, it's even better when people think because somebody acts on a screen that they really are that character in real life.
I mean, you've probably had some martial arts training by now, right? Have you ever seen anybody in MA hopping up and down on their toes and doing stuff like Bruce Lee did? Yelling 'hee-iii' and making lots of weird noises?


Wow, contradiction rly? Like you said, he didn't act like that IRL.

And I've read several legit bibliographies on Bruce Lee. Idiots still think that he was killed by an asprin and that he never learned Wing Chun or part of the Northern Styles. Don't listen to all the rumors you hear on the intarwebs, do some reading of actual literature. There are biographies about Bruce Lee written by Wing Chun instructors, why don't you read those? Surely they aren't going to let some poser get away with what you think he did, right?

It cracks me up how all MMA/BJJ artists hate Bruce Lee so much. Not saying you're one, Lung, just an observation of everyone else who bashes him.

I neither idolize nor loath Bruce Lee. He made some contrabutions and brought about some misconceptions. Interpret the value of each how you want, but making up rumors or reading Wikipedia can't change the past.

[David Jamieson]

Bruce Lee never fought in a full contact sanctioned match.

He did some exhibition stuff and beat up a teenage kid apparently, according to the stories on the set of enter the dragon.

He also fought with Wong Jack Man in a challenge match that was behind closed doors and may have been involved in a scrap or two as a kid although that's all hearsay and in fact, the story about the wong jack man fight is still tossed back and forth and no one really knows what happened except for a couple of the people who were there and to this day, they're not reallyt saying much and what they do say defines the fight as fairly insignificant.

So, was he a hard core fighter? By all accounts, not in the least. But could he demonstrate skills? yes he could. And to that end, let the man rip. yeesh, he's been dead longer than the greater majority of this board has been alive. lol

he's a cult status hero, like many others who have walked and still walk the earth.

cult status is virtual cred and when it comes to these notions, ones as good as the next.

[Anthony]

Bruce Lee was a Cha-cha champion in China. It's a type of dance I'm not too familiar with. Pick up any book about him and you'll learn that it's true.

"He said that Bruce punched and kicked Chuck all around the room."

That's so doubtfull...it's funny. It's in Inosanto's best interest to paint his teacher in a good light. Anyway, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and Bob Wall were not Bruce Lee's students. They all trained with him for a bit in the 60's.....that's all. Joe Lewis was not as impressed with him. Lewis fealt that he could have beaten Bruce Lee and also fealt that Bruce Lee would not have been sucessful at full contact kickboxing. He also fealt that Bruce's teaching was too philosophical. They had a falling out in the end.

Bottom line is that B. Lee did not prove himself on the mat. Lewis, Norris, and Wall did. Bruce did alot for MA but was not a proven fighter. It's just the truth.

[msg]

Bruce Lee was a Cha-cha champion in China. It's a type of dance I'm not too familiar with. Pick up any book about him and you'll learn that it's true.

"He said that Bruce punched and kicked Chuck all around the room."

That's so doubtfull...it's funny. It's in Inosanto's best interest to paint his teacher in a good light. Anyway, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and Bob Wall were not Bruce Lee's students. They all trained with him for a bit in the 60's.....that's all. Joe Lewis was not as impressed with him. Lewis fealt that he could have beaten Bruce Lee and also fealt that Bruce Lee would not have been sucessful at full contact kickboxing. He also fealt that Bruce's teaching was too philosophical. They had a falling out in the end.

Bottom line is that B. Lee did not prove himself on the mat. Lewis, Norris, and Wall did. Bruce did alot for MA but was not a proven fighter. It's just the truth.

its so funny you think that bruce didnt kick chuck around the room lee had way more skill than norris and lewis its a joke trying to compare norris or lewis to bruce lee .

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe Chuck was a BB in Tang Soo Do and Joe was a BB in Shotokan(?) neither of which are Kung fu. Chuck was already a full contact champ which is why they selected him for Enter The Dragon." (Yao Sing)


***CHUCK Norris was NEVER a full contact champ...as soon as full contact came in (circa 1974)....Norris RETIRED from tournament fighting altogether.

And it wasn't "Enter The Dragon"....Chuck appeared in "Return Of The Dragon".

.......................................

"He said that Bruce punched and kicked Chuck all around the room."

That's so doubtfull...it's funny. It's in Inosanto's best interest to paint his teacher in a good light. Anyway, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and Bob Wall were not Bruce Lee's students. They all trained with him for a bit in the 60's.....that's all. Joe Lewis was not as impressed with him. Lewis fealt that he could have beaten Bruce Lee and also fealt that Bruce Lee would not have been sucessful at full contact kickboxing. He also fealt that Bruce's teaching was too philosophical. They had a falling out in the end.

Bottom line is that B. Lee did not prove himself on the mat. Lewis, Norris, and Wall did. Bruce did alot for MA but was not a proven fighter. It's just the truth." (Anthony)


***BOTTOM line is that you don't have a clue.

I personally saw Joe Lewis on the Johnny Carson show one night back in the late 1970's talking about Bruce Lee....he said that Bruce was very talented as a fighter and that he was the fastest human being he's ever seen.

Furthermore...Joe Lewis learned Bruce's "5 angles Of Attack" (from Bruce - see the Tao Of JKD)...and then Lewis wrote magazine articles "demonstrating" what he called the 5 angles of attack - without ever mentioning Bruce's name.

There was a lot of professional jealousy towards Bruce at that time....because the guy was the real deal.

PERIOD.

[lunghushan]

There was a lot of professional jealousy towards Bruce at that time....because the guy was the real deal.

PERIOD.

If he was the real deal then name one public fight he won, one tournament he won, one tournament he entered as a competitor and not as an exhibitor.

[sihing]

If he was the real deal then name one public fight he won, one tournament he won, one tournament he entered as a competitor and not as an exhibitor.

Since when does not competing publicly mean you can't fight lol. You also have to consider the place in time that you are talking about. Where there any venue's to compete in at the time that would fit your criteria? Even if there was, would you even consider them high level competetors? Probably not, since you have already made up your mind.

To put it simply, to try to change a mind like yours is a complete waste of time. The only way to find out is gone, long since 34yrs ago. The only proof we have is the people that knew him best and our own judgement of the footage we have of him. Yeah, I agree he wasn't unbeatable, because no one is, but Bruce did have fighting skills, and could fight if need be. PERIOD...


James

[lunghushan]

Since when does not competing publicly mean you can't fight lol. You also have to consider the place in time that you are talking about. Where there any venue's to compete in at the time that would fit your criteria? Even if there was, would you even consider them high level competetors? Probably not, since you have already made up your mind.

To put it simply, to try to change a mind like yours is a complete waste of time. The only way to find out is gone, long since 34yrs ago. The only proof we have is the people that knew him best and our own judgement of the footage we have of him. Yeah, I agree he wasn't unbeatable, because no one is, but Bruce did have fighting skills, and could fight if need be. PERIOD...


James

Dude, I was raised that Bruce Lee was the greatest MAist of all time. But after looking at the EVIDENCE ... THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

Based upon the EVIDENCE ... he had ONE fight with Wong Jack Man ... everything else appears to be hearsay or conjecture.

[Chief Fox]

Name one other person that has had more impact on Martial arts in the United States.

And FYI, the famous book "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" was NOT written by Bruce. It is a compilation of his notes and drawings that was put together after his death.

[lunghushan]

Name one other person that has had more impact on Martial arts in the United States.

And FYI, the famous book "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" was NOT written by Bruce. It is a compilation of his notes and drawings that was put together after his death.

The issue is: Was he as great of a martial artist as the hype says he was.

To determine that, we would need some evidence of actual fights, or his performance in actual fights.

I've read his book and it's primarily about his experiences SPARRING.

So is there any evidence that he's a great fighter? I'm waiting.

[msg]

lung your just cant admit the truth .to caught up in your own head ..and your closed minded

[sihing]

The issue is: Was he as great of a martial artist as the hype says he was.

To determine that, we would need some evidence of actual fights, or his performance in actual fights.

I've read his book and it's primarily about his experiences SPARRING.

So is there any evidence that he's a great fighter? I'm waiting.

Who are you, and why would we want to or have to prove anything about Bruce Lee's fighting abilities to you?

Either you believe he could fight or not based on what is available today as evidence (video's, personal recollections, books, personal journals by Bruce). I could care less what you believe about his abilities, as I have my own thoughts based on what I have seen. IMO he could fight at a high level. He was not unbeatable for sure as his chin could be taken into consideration and his back injury too, but to exploit those weakness would not be easy to do. Do you think you would have been up to it lunghushan?

James

[lunghushan]

lung your just cant admit the truth .to caught up in your own head ..and your closed minded

What truth? SHOW ME SOME EVIDENCE. You probably think that Jet Li is a great fighter too. At least he was a WUSHU CHAMPION ... he's a forms king. Admit it -- Bruce Lee was an actor and a dancer.

[lunghushan]

Who are you, and why would we want to or have to prove anything about Bruce Lee's fighting abilities to you?

Either you believe he could fight or not based on what is available today as evidence (video's, personal recollections, books, personal journals by Bruce). I could care less what you believe about his abilities, as I have my own thoughts based on what I have seen. IMO he could fight at a high level. He was not unbeatable for sure as his chin could be taken into consideration and his back injury too, but to exploit those weakness would not be easy to do. Do you think you would have been up to it lunghushan?

James

Me? I'm a nobody on a forum.

Honestly? Do I think he could fight? I have no idea. I never met the guy. I'm looking for any evidence he was a great fighter and so far I have found NONE.

[sihing]

Me? I'm a nobody on a forum.

Honestly? Do I think he could fight? I have no idea. I never met the guy. I'm looking for any evidence he was a great fighter and so far I have found NONE.

The next best thing to do is to go study with one of his students. If the student is good, just imagine how good the teacher is??:rolleyes:

If your looking for proof, go find out for yourself, first hand. Inosanto is still around, he's the most popular and recognized as one of his best students. Challenge him and find out. You up for it lunghushan??


J

[lunghushan]

The next best thing to do is to go study with one of his students. If the student is good, just imagine how good the teacher is??:rolleyes:

If your looking for proof, go find out for yourself, first hand. Inosanto is still around, he's the most popular and recognized as one of his best students. Challenge him and find out. You up for it lunghushan??


J

Inosanto's studied lots of stuff ... we're talking about BRUCE LEE here, not one of his students. We're not talking about ME either, we're talking about BRUCE LEE.

Was he any good? Who knows.

[sihing]

Inosanto's studied lots of stuff ... we're talking about BRUCE LEE here, not one of his students. We're not talking about ME either, we're talking about BRUCE LEE.

Was he any good? Who knows.

Who knows, definetly not you bro..LOL

Like I said, your measure of proof is not attainable. You can't fight the man, he's dead, so how exactly do you expect to find proof? Go research for yourself if you are so interested in finding out. Read what others have said, spend time with people that have trained with the man and make up your mind (opps I forgot, you already have..:p ).

Bruce Lee is definetly the person most responsible for the progression and inspiration of others in their pursuit of MA excellence over the last 30yrs. He was definetly high level in fighting skills, you can see it in his movements, read it in his books written in his own words, and from the recollections of people that knew him best. Unfortunately this is the only way to know for sure of his abilities. There were no venue's available for him to prove his abilities while he was alive, but regardless sporting competitions are not that be all and end all of proving true fighting skills due to the fact that there are rules and regulations involved with these events.

The key is not to ask for proof, but to investigate for yourself, make your own decisions and go from there. Really and truly asking people that never knew him is ridiculous, go seek those that knew him the best to really find out.

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's LOADS of evidence...eye witness accounts from people who either sparred him or saw his sparring sessions and/or his numerous streetfights.

Go back and do the research before you decide to diss the guy....like all the TONS of magazine articles that appeared back in the 70's/80's quoting people (ie.- other martial artists) who were witnesses (ie.- during the filming of Enter The Dragon he was being challenged virtually every day by somebody)....or any of the numerous documentaries made about him wherein people were giving eyewitness accounts....

but if you're going to come back with the knee-jerk "oh these were just his friends/students hyping him" routine...

then I can't waste my time continuing this conversation.

And then there's something else...If you don't come away from watching his 5 movies with the distinct impression that here was a guy who could REALLY fight (even with allowing for all the high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)...


then you don't know jack about what real fighting is all about.

Even take a look at the T.V. show episode wherein he taught a blind man to fight - and watch the fight that the man he teaches puts up at the end of the story....and you SHOULD know that Bruce Lee was the real deal.

Get a clue.

[Yao Sing]

I stand corrected. I was never a big Chuck Norris fan so I'm not real familiar with his fight record. Seems he never went beyond point fighting. Joe Lewis did, however, go on to full contact kickboxing.

[Wu Wei Wu]

this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man's prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next... Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.

[sihing]

this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man's prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next... Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.

Hey Man, if you don't have a signed contract with Spike TV, UFC, K1, then you are not considered a real fighter in today's media world. All those before don't mean sh!t compared to todays Giant warriors with gloves and ref's and rules, and cut men et al et al....:rolleyes:

What I find the funniest is when you compare men that train full time to those that don't. Really the comparison is to take those that are the champs of today, make them live regular lives with 8hr a day jobs and family responsiblilites/stresses, then go to training and do it all over again, 5 days a week, and then see where they are at (also you have to take away all their specialized training and help with the best of the best concerning nutritionalists, traininers, specialized Martial Arts coaches, and people taking care of the everyday things for them..). Put most average MA in an environment like that, with proper insentive and you will always come out with a better conditioned, comp. fighter. You have to relate it all to the environment one is in, can't compare apples to oranges.;)

J

[djcetra]

this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man's prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next... Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.

Well said. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see from the mass collection of real life clips and full movies around that B.Lee was a master, one of a kind. People like LungHushan are a reminder to me that there are plenty of shallow minded people in the MA world just like any other place. Lung would just be another non-believer that would be humbled by Lee if he were still alive and then offer to carry Lee's bags wherever he went after getting schooled.

How someone becomes so narrow-minded and negative concerning someone who has done so much for MA like Lee did, I do not know.

-respectz.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, he wrote a book about how styles sucked and then filled the book about how he fought and what worked. Creating his own style.

LOL LOL LOL
.

Dude....I understand the difference between fiction and reality...but Bruce was a beast. His muscles were not cosmetic. (He was soooo toned, it was almost kind of gross). His cardio was so strong, he was basically indefatiguable.

As for JKD--it's not a style.

It's more of a philsophy. It's the credo for MMA....take what works. He did shut down his schools b/c people started to treat it like a style. I admire him for his dedication to his philsophy...and even follow it. But I don't study boxing,fencing, etc......I study what I think is good for me.

With his speed, strength, and cardio, and dedication to MA, I have no doubt he could whip up on guys like Chuck (who's pretty badass in his own right, only he catches flack b/c his movies weren't any good [MIA....that one with the asthmatic kid who has rampant Chuck Norris fantasies...just sick:D ).

He was an innovator and an MA. He also made some sweet flicks. But he couldn't have made the flicks if he wasn't pretty badass first. We're talking about MA cinema without wirework and CG, and ballet-wushu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

Excellent post. Should be a thread killer.

If only he hadn't died so young.......:(

[Crosshandz]

this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man's prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next... Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.

I'm glad that my first post on this forum gets to be a 'nod' to this statement. I dont know why people get so hooked up on the issue of 'how good was Bruce Lee?' From what I've heard the man himself was under no illusions about his skills and deferred to Wong Shun Leung but so what...? Just because he couldn't leap tall buildings in a single bound and wasn't faster than a speeding bullet that doesn't take away from his significance as an individual for all the reasons Wu Wei Wu highlights.

To me, the subject of this thread is akin to asking whether or not Huo Yuan Jia lives up to his legend? During his lifetime other legends like Cheng Tinghua and Yang Banhou were all in their prime and other great fighters of the generation prior like Guo Yunshen were still around. Could Huo Yuan Jia have beaten them all? There's a Chinese dictum that in the south there is Wong Fei Hung and in the north there is Huo Yuan Jia. Does the yellow faced tiger deserve this acclaim though? Was he truly the greatest fighter north of the Yangtze during his lifetime? Really is it that important?

Whats true about Huo Yuan Jia is that he had proven fight skills and that he started an important movement of public teaching of Chinese Martial arts. Likewise Bruce Lee. Leave it at that.

[Knifefighter]

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more "live" type of context and actually do some hard sparring (and, even then, their sparring was not usually as hard as what most boxers would do on a regular basis).

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee "played his game". That is, a lot of his teaching involved working with Wing Chun's chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn't any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn't have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter (i.e. one-inch punch, snappy high kicks, chi sao, one finger push-ups, ripped physique).

[lkfmdc]

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more "live" type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee "played his game". That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun's chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn't any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn't have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.

And keep in mind, KF knows many people who trained with LEE or descend from Lee's teachings...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...so do I.

In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat's school in September, 1979...I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest's of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)...in Boulder, Colorado.

In fact, Ted Wong sat next to William Cheung during my grading for the Gold Sash in William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun system...TWC... (the highest rank William was giving out in those days)...although he's since expanded the grading structure to include other things such as weapons, etc....beyond the test for Gold Sash.

And my test included bare knuckled full contact sparring with sneakers on that included headshots, kicks to the groin, etc. (with no protective equipment except a mouthpiece and a groin cup).

So it's not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about.

Ted Wong and William Cheung were in the midst of collaborating on a book at that time that compared JKD to TWC....and Ted put in an amazing JKD demo that Saturday night....The guy was already 53 years old and still super fast/conditioned.

And both had plenty of hard sparring - and in the case of Willam, at least, real fighting experience in their day. (Perhaps Ted too, I don't really know enough about that to say one way or another.)

But I do know that he was very good - and not afraid of real fighting, for sure.

In fact - do you recall the...I think it was an Inside Kung Fu executive....who was stabbed to death back in those days? (I don't remember his name at the moment).

Well he had just had lunch with William Cheung and Ted Wong at some restaurant...he said good-bye...walked around the corner...and was attacked by his assailant...William and Ted heard the screams....came running....and Ted chased the assailant while William attended to the victim...

Ted caught up to him and actually tried to subdue the guy (unsuccessfully)...who got away. (Ted was not hurt).

And I've personally seen the knife wound that William Cheung still carries to this day on his back (a fight back in 1959)...

So we're not talking about some guys who've never done anything other than some friendly amateur sparring against untrained/unskilled opponents here.

These guys are the real deal.

And the same applies to Bruce Lee.

[Knifefighter]

In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat's school in September, 1979...I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest's of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)...in Boulder, Colorado.

So it's not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about.
You were with them for how long? A total of 9 days between the two of them? How would a total of 9 days give you insight into how they and Lee trained and sparred in his system?


These guys are the real deal.
And the same applies to Bruce Lee.
Depends on what you mean by the real deal. Was there some hard sparring? Yeah, occasionally. But not much in comparison to what boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers and judokas were doing back then... and definitely not much compared to what today's competitive MMA fighters currently do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

viii) Nobody's mom is allowed in.

ix) Please note that the judicial system does not recognize Trial by Combat anymore. …Frickin' lawyers gone and spoiled everything.

x) Challenges involving tai chi practitioners will take place at full speed.:D :D

xi) All participants are to govern their actions with strict attention to courtesy and decorum as… Cough, cough… Okay, I know I'm not fooling anybody with this one.

xii) If the "Delayed Death Touch" is used, the impending time of death must be announced in advance - much like calling your shot in pool. Both participants must then sit in chairs until the appointed time. A death occurring within 10 minutes of the agreed-upon time will constitute a victory.:p :D

[iron tiger]

His muscles were not cosmetic. (He was soooo toned...)

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me. ;)


By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys [and movie-star students of his--i.t.] were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more "live" type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee "played his game". That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun's chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn't any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn't have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.

Imo, KF's post is one of the best I've yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren't so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me. ;) .

Hmmm.....more like respect for peak conditioning.....it's not easy...:cool:


Imo, KF's post is one of the best I've yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren't so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.

I can't believe I'm saying this....but I agree with that statement.:eek:

[Anthony]

"If he was the real deal then name one public fight he won, one tournament he won, one tournament he entered as a competitor and not as an exhibitor."

I have to agree with that. American fighters who actually proove themselves are never given the credit of Asian "masters" who havent. But somehow the latter are always the "real deal." What a joke.

Think about this thread for a minute. You have people arguing that a man was a good fighter. This man has no recorded fights. What's there to argue? Duh.

If youre so inclined, you can give B.Lee all the credit you want. I'll give the credit and my respect to people like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. Too bad if you don't like it.

[msg]

this can go on forever people are going to think what they want for some reason they have something against cma and the real teachers they rather go along with the stupid and closed minded westeners they have the bigest egos thats why the always have to try and prove themselvs key word try

[Ultimatewingchun]

Everything is time relative...The bottom line is....major parts of the martial arts world at that time were thoroughly impressed with Lee's abilities...Ed Parker, Jhoon Rhee, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bolo (forgot his real name), Bob Wall, etc. (And if Lewis and Norris have changed their stories now - that's their problem).

And here's some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, "TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE":

"I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today in the movies today as a stuntman" (p.228)

"One time Bruce and I were training, Bruce kicked me really hard. I remember thinking that it was a good thing that he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me over the Great Wall of China. He was not only strong for his size but nobody was faster. I loved that man...."

"He had two students that I remain good friends with to this day...Danny Inosanto, who is every bit as good as Bruce was if not better, and Richard Bustillo. Richard has carried on Bruce's philosophy of cross training and peak physical condition in order to become the best fighter that you can. Gokor Chivichyan and I still give grappling seminars at Richard Bustillo's dojo every year. " (P.168)

.................

So what that he wasn't doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?

Is there any doubt in your mind about what he'd be doing if he were 25 years old today? Or how good he'd be? Given his skill level, natural attributes, and his penchant for cross training, heavy conditioning, and hard realistic sparring?

The guy was great for his time. And if this was his time he'd be great today.

[Knifefighter]

And here's some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, "TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE":
"Toughest Man Alive" as in Lebell, not Lee.

"I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today in the movies today as a stuntman" (p.228)

He was not only strong for his size but nobody was faster."



So what that he wasn't doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?
All the Judokas, wrestlers, Sambo and BJJ practitioners



The guy was great for his time.
I don't think one can say he was great compared to the elite level athletes such boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers, and Judo players of that time.



And if this was his time he'd be great today.
Maybe... but he'd probably need to concentrate more on real fighting and less on movies.

[Ultimatewingchun]

More fighting - less movies...SURE.

OKAY...I buy that.

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

And within all the striking/kicking oriental martial arts traditions (Thai boxing the sole exception since it was the national sport of Thailand)...

he was the first one in the modern era to emphasize all-out full contact sparring with protective gear, full power headshots, etc.

And when guys twice his size like Joe Lewis walk away and compliment him, his style of fighting (ie.- 5 angles of atttack), his speed, etc...and when guys like Lebell take positive note of his kicking skill, emphasis on conditioning, cardio, etc...

and both guys just mentioned did compete in world class fighting events and won...

then you have to put two and two together...

and it all adds up to: EXCELLENT FIGHTER.

[PangQuan]

i cant even finish reading this thread.

just being curious i thought i would see what this thread is about.

here is what ive noticed this thread is about...


a lot of people speaking based on what they want to say...not on facts.

because no one really has much fact.

here are the facts anyone needs to know.

1. bruce lee was real, alive and a martial artist

2. bruce lee was not a professional fighter.

3. bruce lee had great attributes to be a fighter, and put in enough time and thought, so that had he wanted to make the leap, he could have.

4. bruce lee decided not to fight, like many martial artists do.

5. bruce lee was an actor, martial artists and philosopher, who has done more in his life than anyone else here.

6. people like to speak through jealousy or ignorance.

7. leave the mans past in the past. live your own life, and dont worry about how good bruce lee was. hes dead.


shut up, go home, and train.

talking sh!t about a dead guy will not improve YOUR skills.

[Black Jack II]

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

You hear this one a lot but it only seems true because of his popularity of that era. He did bring crosstraining vastly more into the main public eye but he was not the first one to pickup the concept.

There were other folks who had a emphasis on crosstraining during that time period and even way before. Prof Vistiacion, Moses Powell, Dr.Gyi, Charles Nelson, Bernard J. Cosneck, Adriano Emperado's group, actually there seem to be a number really.

[iron tiger]

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me

Hmmm.....more like respect for peak conditioning.....it's not easy...

'Twas but a joke. Pretty common tease other sports boards.

:)

[lkfmdc]

I laugh out loud everytime I hear the claim that Bruce Lee invented cross training

At the turn of the century (uh, 19th to 20th), those guys doing boxing and catch wrestling weren't cross training?

Savate wasn't cross training when they combined southern FRENCH kicks with northern FRENCH slaps and English boxing?

The Sambo guys in the early part of the 20th century weren't cross training when they combined native forms of wrestling with Japanese judo, western boxing and Chinese striking?

Hapkido, which was established in Korea in the 1940's isn't cross training when it took Korean and Japanese martial arts and combined them?

The Tang Shou Dao guys in Taiwan weren't cross training when they combined Hsing Yi and Judo?

Kempo, Kajukenbo, Arnis, all before Lee

[The Xia]

Crosstraining is nothing new. The history of crosstraining is as long as the history of martial arts itself. Styles are formed from existing styles. Just as an example, Wang Lang crosstrained and combined material into a new style way before Bruce was born.

[The Xia]

Jow Gar?
What about Hung Fut?
Wong Fei Hung added some Lama Pai into his Hung Gar.
Besides styles being formed from existing styles and bringing in elements from other styles into a given art, there are and have been tons of teachers who practice multiple styles. Therefore, to say that Bruce Lee invented crosstraining is ridiculous.

[iron tiger]

I laugh out loud everytime I hear the claim that Bruce Lee invented cross training

Me too. Everyone knows it was Al Gore.

[PangQuan]

huo yuanjia....another who helped to impliment cross training habits into a program for people.

[lkfmdc]

Me too. Everyone knows it was Al Gore.

I hear he invented the internet also.....

[sihing]

What I find funny is comments with the words 'Elite Level Athletes', referring to only those that compete. IMO Bruce was an elite level athlete, otherwise how the hell did he develop himself into what he was? With a Bad back, bad eyes, not naturally gifted body he did pretty good by always training (this is related by all who knew him), always pushing himself. Yeah of course he didn't do as much when his career was taking off, I would do the same. He was poor and struggling to support his family and make a name for himself, so when the opportunities came he choose to go for it. Or would one rather continue down a road going know where and become a fighter, LOL. Back in those days it would be pretty hard to support yourself being a fighter, especially in Lee's division. To me if he wanted to he could have become a pro fighter easily, and done damm good, but he choose not to, a wise decision.

You have to walk in the man's shoes to determine whether or not he made good decisions. He did what was best for himself and his family and look where it got him. People still talking about him 33yrs after his death!

I agree that his legend has put him up on a pedestal, and that we should look at him in a more realistic fashion, after all he was just human. He had the talent and could wipe the floor with all on here if he choose to today, so who are we to judge a man like that.


James

[lkfmdc]

There is an article, have to find the link, where they look at Bruce Lee's own notes on his workouts, taking into consideration his body size, number of sets, number of reps, weight used, etc they determined that his workout was extraordinarily AVERAGE.....

Some people have a vested emotional interest in believing Bruce Lee was so unique

[Royal Dragon]

I do remember seeing that somewhere before.

Also, was he that fast? or was he in a Karate enviroment where chaseing hands was the name of the game, and he followed shoulder and hip movements instead? If that was the case, it wasn't that he was so fast, it was that he was watching the core minutia, where movement starts, and everyone else was watching the end result. This kept him a step a head of everyone else at the time, so he appeared faster than he was.

[Knifefighter]

What I find funny is comments with the words 'Elite Level Athletes', referring to only those that compete.
Elite level athlete refers to the level of other athletes one competes against. Elite level athlete usually refers to national, Olympic, and world championship competition level.

Since he never tested himself in open competitions against other athletes at that level, he would not generally be referred to as elite level.

[The Xia]

Elite level athlete refers to the level of other athletes one competes against. Elite level athlete usually refers to national, Olympic, and world championship competition level.

Since he never tested himself in open competitions against other athletes at that level, he would not generally be referred to as elite level.
You know, there are and were other great martial artists out there who don't/didn't compete in national, Olympic, and world championship competition levels. If you want, I can name tons from the era of the 60s and 70s.

[Anthony]

"And when guys twice his size like Joe Lewis walk away and compliment him, his style of fighting (ie.- 5 angles of atttack), his speed, etc...and when guys like Lebell take positive note of his kicking skill, emphasis on conditioning, cardio, etc...

and both guys just mentioned did compete in world class fighting events and won...

then you have to put two and two together...

and it all adds up to: EXCELLENT FIGHTER."


It adds up to something else too: YOUR LOGIC STINKS!


Maybe it's just me but I think that a prerequisite to anyone being called an excellent fighter is that they should actually, oh, I don't know......um...........


FIGHT

[Knifefighter]

You know, there are and were other great martial artists out there who don't/didn't compete in national, Olympic, and world championship competition levels. If you want, I can name tons from the era of the 60s and 70s.

Although usually used in reference to competitive athletes, elite level could probably be considered anyone who is at the top level of physical activity, not just competitors. Ballet stars Baryshnikov and Nureyev would surely have been considered to be elite level athletes.

The reference to Lee was not that he was or was not an elite level athlete, but that the level of sparring intensity that he was doing during his normal training was probably not at the same level that elite competitive combat athletes were normally doing at that time.

[Anthony]

I just want to add that I don't expect TCMA people to be able to grasp such a radical concept (actually fighting). But try to keep an open mind.

[The Xia]

Although usually used in reference to competitive athletes, elite level could probably be considered anyone who is at the top level of physical activity, not just competitors. Ballet stars Baryshnikov and Nureyev would surely have been considered to be elite level athletes.

The reference to Lee was not that he was or was not an elite level athlete, but that the level of sparring intensity that he was doing during his normal training was probably not at the same level that elite competitive combat athletes were normally doing at that time.
Thanks for clarifying. I understand what you are saying now. Although I have to say that I don't know how Bruce sparred so I can't say if it was up to par or not with others of his time. I've heard lots of stories of Bruce Lee fights. Although I'll say this, in most of those stories, he doesn't come out the winner. The exceptions to this rule are Linda Lee's version of the Wong Jack Man fight (which differs greatly from other accounts), the story about all the challenges on the Enter the Dragon set, and some of the stories about Hong Kong rooftop fights. Other then that, I always hear about Bruce losing. On the plus side for Bruce, a lot of his contemporaries do praise his abilities.

[David Jamieson]

this can go on forever people are going to think what they want for some reason they have something against cma and the real teachers they rather go along with the stupid and closed minded westeners they have the bigest egos thats why the always have to try and prove themselvs key word try

uh, if anyone had an over inflated ego , then Bruce Lee would be an example of this.

I'm not comfortable with racists tones in anything really, but facts are facts. Bruce wanted by his own admission to more than anything be like steve mcqueen not like yip man. In fact, it was his own surly attitude that got him kicked ouyt of ip's teaching.

he never fought, he demonstrated. There were in his own time as large a number of dudes that could ktfo him. That can be said of any screen actor. It's like saying Jet Li is a world class fighter, he's not, neither is Jackie Chan and never were they world class fighters. They were showmen. And that's cool and they likely know a lot of cool stuff but just never had th impetus to apply it for real and opted for the money that comes with doing the movie fu.


besides, it's zen to see things how the really are and appreciate something even with its warts. I still enjoy Bruce's movies. They are a lot of fun, but they aren't advisable to retain as instructional. :-)

[Ultimatewingchun]

And here's what I find hilarious about this thread...all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn't have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.

Who's kidding who around here?! :rolleyes: :cool:

I think I'll check out some other threads - this one is really getting old....

and dumb. ;)

[TenTigers]

I don't understand how one can decide fighting in a ring, or professionally as being the only thing that determines if one is a "fighter". I know of many TCMA throughout history as well as famous Karateka, or even Miyamoto Musashi for that matter, that never fought in "recognized" organized fights, as you put it. I know countless guys on the street who are fighters, and never entered any type of venue, other than a barroom, or back alley.
So what if Lee never fought in a tournament? He fought. Period. He is recognized by those who have far more knowledge and experience than probably anyone here. That's enough for me.If that's not enough for you, well then I guess that's your problem. If you wanna go on and on speculating about something you know nothing about, we may as well change this to a Batman vs Spiderman debate.
It's just as stupid.
BTW, this isn't directed to anyone in particular, it's directed at everyone.:p

[TenTigers]

btw-Spidey, hands down, if anyone's interested.

[The Xia]

I don't understand how one can decide fighting in a ring, or professionally as being the only thing that determines if one is a "fighter". I know of many TCMA throughout history as well as famous Karateka, or even Miyamoto Musashi for that matter, that never fought in "recognized" organized fights, as you put it. I know countless guys on the street who are fighters, and never entered any type of venue, other than a barroom, or back alley.
So what if Lee never fought in a tournament? He fought. Period. He is recognized by those who have far more knowledge and experience than probably anyone here. That's enough for me.If that's not enough for you, well then I guess that's your problem. If you wanna go on and on speculating about something you know nothing about, we may as well change this to a Batman vs Spiderman debate.
It's just as stupid.
BTW, this isn't directed to anyone in particular, it's directed at everyone.:p
Paleez! We all know that Batman would eventually prove the victor because of his wits. :cool: :p
but seriously, I do agree with this post. However, I'm sure you have also heard the stories of Bruce losing to guys who didn't fight in the ring. I'm not saying that to demean him. I'm just saying he was a human being.

[TenTigers]

I agree. A fight is a fight. Most times,it can be any man's day.

[Knifefighter]

he never fought, he demonstrated.
Actually, he did fight. I've seen some old footage of his training and a couple of his rooftop fights. He was pretty dominating against the guys he fought in that footage, but they weren't exactly world beaters.

I think he was a probably quite a good stand-up fighter, but probably not the undefeatable bad@$$ that those who have only seen his movies and demonstrations think that he was.

[sihing]

The question should be could Bruce fight, if he choose to? Yes IMO. Regarding Elite level athlete's and such, Elite is Elite, whether or not you are competiting is besides the point (especially in his time period). Also, Bruce was not a "Professional" athlete, meaning he did not make his living competiting, so therefore he was not able to spend countless hours physically or mentally honing his abilities (although I do believe he did make use of his time very well regarding his Martial Arts training). He did have other things in his life and other things he strived for. Fame was one of them, and he did have an ego for sure, plus a family to support while being a struggling Asian actor in a business where acotrs of that nationality where in little need.

Too put it simply, he wasn't perfect, wasn't unbeatable, wasn't the god like figure most think of when you say his name, but he was unique, and very gifted as he did mold himself into what he became. What ever path he choose to go down, Actor or Fighter or whatever, he would have succeeded, no doubt.

James

[Knifefighter]

The question should be could Bruce fight, if he choose to? Yes IMO. Regarding Elite level athlete's and such, Elite is Elite, whether or not you are competiting is besides the point (especially in his time period).
What brings people to their highest levels is competing against others at equally high levels.

[TenTigers]

I would agree qith KF, but competing isn't always in a ring, with a ref and trunks,gi, or speedos. Many TCMA "competed" in public as well as personal, non-public gong-sao, some friendly, some not so friendly. My Sifu has always maintained that if you don't touch and compare with other high skilled players, you will never achieve the highest levels. This still goes on today.

[PangQuan]

basically what it seems to come down to is this:

There are haters, and there are obsessors....


but in between all those people, the rest of us know bruce lee was a real guy, with a real body, and a real mind.

he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky

he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone.

he was, to say the least, a dragon.

R.I.P.

who cares who he could and could not beat.

[The Xia]

It seems Bruce Lee has become a divisive issue. Haters and Obsessors are a good way of describing what it mostly comes down to lately. I think both sides take it too far. I see him as a skilled martial artist with great charisma who made some cool movies and had strong points and flaws. Bruce was not perfect like the obsessors would claim, but he isn’t the utter chump that the haters would have you think he is.

[PangQuan]

you and i stand on the same ground

[Knifefighter]

And here's what I find hilarious about this thread...all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn't have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.
He focused most of his energies on becoming a famous movie star. He was 130 lbs with extremely limited knowledge of grappling and groundfighting. I'm sure there are a lot of naysayers of today who could have easily "lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy."

[Shossain]

Hello all..

I must apologize for intruding here.. as I don't claim myself to be a martial artist at all.. used to practice 18 years ago.. no belts.. never fought at any competition.. and got detached somehow.. shame on me..

But after reading some of the posts I desired to share my views to you all and may be if anyone respond to this post then that may allow me to learn something new adding some value in my life.. so please advise on the following:

- Is martial art for fighting in competition or at streets or roof tops or for practicing as an art.. is it for having recognition in the society as a champion or a street fighter or improving oneself on different aspects of body, mind, life and sharing experiences with others and helping others making improvements..

- Is there a new form of martial art named Jeet Kune Do.. if so then who presented this form of martial art to the world.. and how many of those elite level fighters referred at different postings who won competitions could present how many new forms of martial art to the world.. could anyone present anything newer after JKD.. how much knowledge, time, effort, skill, etc. do you think is needed to develop and present a new form of martial art..

- Can anyone identify drawbacks of JKD form of martial arts sighting specific comparisons with other similar forms..


Here are some of my views..

- To be a true martial artist one need not participate in any competition but practice and practice and practice.. which can even be with ones own shadow and not with another live partner..

- To achieve highest level of skill, power, etc. one need not participate in any competition but push and push and push oneself beyond the limits that one has achieved in the past and there could be a lot of people around all of us who may have achieved much better skills than most of the people talking or referred to here but don't feel the necessity to prove that to others..

- To evaluate someone in true sense one need to have better knowledge, skills, etc. from that someone.. and unless that someone is tested by the one how can one come to some real conclusion on specific issues like whether that one was skillful or powerful enough or not..

- Those who can not offer something new to the world and just follow some path shown by others do not have the capability to evaluate those who offered new things..

- If someone is not really something then why so many people are trying to prove that he is/was not really something.. isn't it better not to talk than talking about nothing..


Here are some of my opinions..

- I have seen some of the UFC programs that some claimed as world class fighting or fighters.. the fights or skills shown in all those that I have watched in TV are not good by any standard.. and the fighters there looks more like a bunch of kids trying to win some trophy by any means than a true martial artist.. interestingly enough some of them did not even pass some of the fitness tests.. demonstrated very ill behavior.. I can't understand how some of you called these people elite fighters.. but if this is the standard of your so called elite fighters I am sure the person in the quote would not fit in to that standard..

- Bruce Lee is a legend in one way or other.. these kind of talking can not touch him.. so it's better not to try something that would not bring anything good to anyone.. no matter whether he was good enough or not it will not make you any better.. you see.. you are already talking about him.. but nobody is talking about you other than yourself..


A specific question to those who are claiming to be highly skillful, powerful, experts or champions of martial arts, unbeatable, etc. etc. and challenging capabilities of someone who has passed away..

- do you know yourself enough.. can anyone give figures on how many punches you can through at what kind of force, speed and distance in a second on target..


May be none will answer this as everyone knows that someone else may perform better.. so don't just think that you are really good but try to understand that there is no end of learning and achieving better results and feel that someone else may always be ahead of you whom you have never met and fix your target to achieve something beyond that someone where only you can fix that target and no-one else and end of the day you never know if someone else has fixed a higher target and achieved that already.. so try to beat your own shadow.. and don't step on to someone else's..

Have a good time.. :)

[Knifefighter]

I must apologize for intruding here.. as I don't claim myself to be a martial artist at all.. used to practice 18 years ago..
- I have seen some of the UFC programs that some claimed as world class fighting or fighters.. the fights or skills shown in all those that I have watched in TV are not good by any standard.. and the fighters there looks more like a bunch of kids trying to win some trophy by any means than a true martial artist..

Real fighting, even among the most skilled, often looks sloppy and "unskilled" compared to the fantasies of movie fighting, forms dancing and demonstrations... especially when you throw in all ranges into the mix.

[Shossain]

Real fighting, even among the most skilled, often looks sloppy and "unskilled" compared to the fantasies of movie fighting, forms dancing and demonstrations... especially when you throw in all ranges into the mix.

I am sure everyone here knows that quite well..

But when I watch real fightings of legends like Mohammad Ali and a few others including a very few on Bruce Lee I find it difficult to understand why most others can not dance like that at the ring and still can win to be a champion.. ofcourse.. all champions are not true champions.. and all champions are not legends..

With due respect to all.. I doubt if these people participating in the UFC and many other championships now a day that many are referring here can dance close to that level even in movies..

I would request you guys to close this thread without more mud slinging..

No matter what anyone have to say..

Bruce Lee is Bruce Lee.. a legend..


By the way did anyone try the punches? :) I could achieve 14 in a second..

[Knifefighter]

But when I watch real fightings of legends like Mohammad Ali and a few others including a very few on Bruce Lee I find it difficult to understand why most others can not dance like that at the ring and still can win to be a champion.. ofcourse.. all champions are not true champions.. and all champions are not legends..

With due respect to all.. I doubt if these people participating in the UFC and many other championships now a day that many are referring here can dance close to that level even in movies..

Because they are fighting, not dancing.

Lee could dance like that because he wasn't really fighting, he was acting in movies.

Ali could dance that way because he didn't have to worry about being taken down.


By the way did anyone try the punches? I could achieve 14 in a second..

Multiple punches per second is like dancing when it comes to actually fighting... not a whole lot of transfer to real fighting situations.

[Shossain]

Because they are fighting, not dancing.

Lee could dance like that because he wasn't really fighting, he was acting in movies.

Ali could dance that way because he didn't have to worry about being taken down.



Multiple punches per second is like dancing when it comes to actually fighting... not a whole lot of transfer to real fighting situations.



Frankly.. and with due respect to all.. I was expecting some more constructive response.. and the focus is now shifting..

However, I am adding some more of my views here..

Martial art is an art and not just a fighting tool.. those who does not agree probably do not practice martial art but some fighting methods only..

Dancing is not just dancing like a dance or to show off its a tool to implement a plan.. to change stances like on and off moving in and out taking control distracting focus of opponent.. its stepping at a faster pace with balance.. those who can dance will always dance in real fightings too.. it increases speed, control, power, all that one need in real fighting.. but for only those who can dance.. so to perform better than what one can do one have to dance..

About multiple punching.. in my opinion what is referred to in the above quote is just throwing hands and not punches.. multiple punches at speed with control and power and on target is something that not too many people can do.. while watching any real fighting one will find this to be the most devastating and a major reason for winning.. and if one can not punch without fighting how can one expect to punch in actual fighting?

So.. dance and see the difference.. enjoy the discovery.. :)

[Knifefighter]

Martial art is an art and not just a fighting tool.. those who does not agree probably do not practice martial art but some fighting methods only..

BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, boxing, Judo, and wrestling are definitely more fighting method and less martial art.

Nothing wrong with wanting to have "art" involved. Just don't expect it to have any relation to actual fighting.


those who can dance will always dance in real fightings too..

Watch any combat system that involves takedowns. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Sambo... you won't see much in terms of dancing in these. There's a functional reason for this.



while watching any real fighting one will find this to be the most devastating and a major reason for winning..

The major reason for ending a fight with punches is the power, timing and accuracy of said punches, not how many punches can be thrown in a short period of time.

Multiple, incredibly fast punches thrown one after another mostly work only in the pretend world of movies and demonstrations.

[PangQuan]

- Bruce Lee is a legend in one way or other.. these kind of talking can not touch him.. so it's better not to try something that would not bring anything good to anyone.. no matter whether he was good enough or not it will not make you any better.. you see.. you are already talking about him.. but nobody is talking about you other than yourself..

i believe this statement captures the essence of this "discussion" regarding bruce lee.

bruce lee simply was bruce lee.

"achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing."

this is something a great man once told me.

i believe this quote i just wrote was something that bruce lee lived by, regardless of whether he was concious of this thought pattern.

i believe bruce lee reached a greatness many will not find in several life times.

i dont believe the goal of bruce lee was to defeat everyone in combat, or that would have been his focus.

i believe bruce lee wanted to develop methods for helping ANYONE to be able to reach these standards and possibilities.

my beliefs may be wrong.

but it doesnt really matter

[lkfmdc]

Bruce Lee

A guy with a unique physical condition (let's not be Ho mo about it), yes

A guy who wasn't "just" an actor, had martial arts skills, yes

A guy who invented cross training? NO

A guy who chose movies over fighter, ok, no problem

A guy who made martial arts very popular and helped push them mainstream, no doubt about it, yes

A great fighter? No evidence of this. A few fights with people whose level is hard to determine. No competition. Certainly had almost no grappling skills

If there wasn't a cult talking about how Bruce wold have KO'd Royce Gracie and won every UFC pretty much no one would care about Bruce Lee

Heck, a lot of JKD people have moved BEYOND Bruce Lee

[Yao Sing]

Knifefighter
Why the lieing quotes? Couldn't find something I said for real to bash?

How about fixing that and quoting something I actually said?

[Knifefighter]

That should be better.

[Yao Sing]

Well you're still off in fantasyland with that one but then we all know your grasp of reality is a weak one.

BTW, I returned the favor. Like it?

[Anthony]

"And here's what I find hilarious about this thread...all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn't have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.

Who's kidding who around here?!"

I honestly think youre kidding yourself. I don't know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don't think he could do anything to me. Not without a gun. I'm not asking, or trying to convince, anyone to believe this but it's how I feel. News flash.....you can actually be good without being famous.

That being said:

"he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky

he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone."

I pretty much agree.

"achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing."

Great quote.....if everyone fealt this way this forum would be empty.

[sihing]

"And here's what I find hilarious about this thread...all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn't have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.

Who's kidding who around here?!"

I honestly think youre kidding yourself. I don't know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don't think he could do anything to me. Not without a gun. I'm not asking, or trying to convince, anyone to believe this but it's how I feel. News flash.....you can actually be good without being famous.

That being said:

"he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky

he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone."

I pretty much agree.

"achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing."

Great quote.....if everyone fealt this way this forum would be empty.

You THINK you could beat Bruce? I can say the samething, too bad there is no way to find out eh, lol... I agree that you can be good without being famous, but Bruce was that. He only acheived fame for the last 3 yrs of his life, he was good for many many years before that.

You gotta love the internet.:D

Hey dude, maybe post some video's on utube and we can have inkling of your skill to possibly back up what you say, OK.

James

[rogue]

I heard from someone that knew someone that on the set of a movie he knocked out Judo Gene Labell. One punch.:eek: And one does have to ask why nobody from Brazil ever challenged him. The reason is simple, they are great fighters and recognized someone who was superior even to them. Bruce was and always will be the ultimate fighter.

The Real Original Lucky Louie!

[Shossain]

BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, boxing, Judo, and wrestling are definitely more fighting method and less martial art.

Nothing wrong with wanting to have "art" involved. Just don't expect it to have any relation to actual fighting.


Watch any combat system that involves takedowns. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Sambo... you won't see much in terms of dancing in these. There's a functional reason for this.


The major reason for ending a fight with punches is the power, timing and accuracy of said punches, not how many punches can be thrown in a short period of time.

Multiple, incredibly fast punches thrown one after another mostly work only in the pretend world of movies and demonstrations.


JKD is not just a style or form of fighting method.. it represents the most recent and advanced martial art..


Yes.. because as mentioned these specific forms of fighting methods limited by rules.. and as such are not complete fighting techniques.. however, saying that I must agree, dancing is not mandatory.. but can give advantage during a real fight too..


Mohammad Ali, the 20th century sportsman of the century, used to dance in every real fighting.. even when he fought some of the other greatest boxers like Sonny Liston, Jeorge Foreman and Joe Frazier.. I am sure those were not movie tricks or Mohammad Ali did not try to act in the ring.. here is a specific quote on this "During the bout, Ali employed an unexpected strategy. Throughout the build up he declared he was going to 'dance' and use his speed to keep away from Foreman and out box him"..


No disagreement.. but speed is very important too.. that's what it means.. without speed the rest does not work because the target will move out/block/divert as it see something coming..


Another quote from Ali's fight.. "By the end of the eighth round Foreman was clearly flagging and Ali made his move, turning Foreman off the ropes and executing a combination for the knockout"..


Watching videos of his fights will give all a pretty good idea on what dancing and multiple punching is all about in real fights..

[rogue]

And also how to rope a dope, a very effective street technique.

[Shossain]

"I don't know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don't think he could do anything to me.


I would love to see some stats as mentioned.. may be a comparison too.. instead of just mentioning.. :)

Is it braveness or ignorance!!.. may be all here would love to see a fight against Dan.. probably the only person certified by Bruce still living with us in this world.. you may call +1 310 578 7773 to have it scheduled.. :)

[Knifefighter]

JKD is not just a style or form of fighting method.. it represents the most recent and advanced martial art..

The most advanced martial art?

Methinks someone has been drinking the Kool-Aide again.



Mohammad Ali, the 20th century sportsman of the century, used to dance in every real fighting..even when he fought some of the other greatest boxers like Sonny Liston, Jeorge Foreman and Joe Frazier.. I am sure those were not movie tricks or Mohammad Ali did not try to act in the ring

As I mentioned, he didn't have to worry about being taken down.
Takedowns are illegal in boxing.
Takedowns change the dynamics of how one can move.




No disagreement.. but speed is very important too.. that's what it means.. without speed the rest does not work because the target will move out/block/divert as it see something coming..

Speed is, indeed, important.
Speed, as in 5 or more punches per second, is not.




Watching videos of his fights will give all a pretty good idea on what dancing and multiple punching is all about in real fights..

Ali is a perfect example of top speed combined with power, and you would never see him throwing 14 punches in a second.

[Knifefighter]

I would love to see some stats as mentioned.. may be a comparison too.. instead of just mentioning.. :)

Is it braveness or ignorance!!.. may be all here would love to see a fight against Dan.. probably the only person certified by Bruce still living with us in this world.. you may call +1 310 578 7773 to have it scheduled.. :)

Shossain-

You are a student of Dan's?

If you are, he is not going to be happy to find out about you making public proclamations about scheduling fights with him.

Rather than posting your instructor's number, you should step up and post yours if you want a demonstration of people's abilities.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think he (Bruce Lee) was a probably quite a good stand-up fighter, but probably not the undefeatable bad@$$ that those who have only seen his movies and demonstrations think that he was." (Knife/Frank)


***NOBODY is undefeatable.

................


" don't know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him (Bruce Lee) in any venue..." (Anthony)


***YEAH.....riiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes: :eek: :D

........................


And as to Bruce's limited wrestling/grappling abilities back in the late 1960's/early 70's...

Ahh...yeah....but he was clearly getting interested more-and-more in wrestling/grappling as time went on (you can see a progression through the timelines of when his movies were made, ie.- he kills Chuck with a guillotine in "Return Of The Dragon"...and kills Kareem with a side choke in "Game Of Death" - his last two movies).

And as for JKD being the most advanced style..I would so NO if you're talking about actual principles, strategies, and techniques...

but YES if you mean the overall concept within JKD of having no (particular) style because you've drawn from multiple styles: CROSSTRAINING.

Crosstraining is the BEST STYLE.

[Shossain]

Shossain-

You are a student of Dan's?

If you are, he is not going to be happy to find out about you making public proclamations about scheduling fights with him.

Rather than posting your instructor's number, you should step up and post yours if you want a demonstration of people's abilities.



I apologize..

No I am not a student of Dan.. and the number is of the academy and not his personal number.. however, may be it was not right to post here..

I mentioned him only because may be he is one of the very few people living now who can tell us the real Bruce stories.. and instead of making comments and speculating its better to hear it from someone who know it..

[Shossain]

NOBODY is undefeatable.


Yes.. Mohammad Ali was also defeated.. but it does not mean that he can not fight or not a good one..

[Shossain]

The most advanced martial art?

Methinks someone has been drinking the Kool-Aide again.




As I mentioned, he didn't have to worry about being taken down.
Takedowns are illegal in boxing.
Takedowns change the dynamics of how one can move.





Speed is, indeed, important.
Speed, as in 5 or more punches per second, is not.





Ali is a perfect example of top speed combined with power, and you would never see him throwing 14 punches in a second.



Yes.. Ali is the perfect example for both combination punches and dancing and nobody can contest that.. and that is why his examples were picked here.. but nobody would probably stand to take 14 punches from him in a second.. everybody fall within the first few..

Also practicing is for improving skills and does not necessarily mean that one have to apply it exactly as it is done in the practice.. moreover, practicing is more or less static process as most people tend to go with specific routines, or training sessions, or instructions where as actual fighting is dynamic as it involves actions and reactions from the opponent too.. but skilled developed from practice are indicators for the level attained by one to devastate opponents in real fighting..

[lkfmdc]

This is exactly the sort of nonsense that leads people to get tired of the Bruce Lee cult and call it out

JKD isn't the "most advanced", in fact, those who are actively fighting today are doing very little of the stuff that Bruce Lee originally taught. Erik Paulson, Straight Blast, etc have moved beyond the very limited scope of Lee's original teachings

Bruce Lee most certainly did not KO Gene LeBell :rolleyes:
LeBell in fact picked up Lee and carried him around the set, Lee felt humiliated. Le Bell then threw him down and put a straight arm bar on him. And Lee couldn't get out. A lot of people think that later films where Lee uses a bite to get out the same movement is a "working out" emotionally of this incident for Lee

Ali is a legend, but he was also a man, and he also did some things that are not correct in boxing. Ali's head movement was wrong, he pulled straight back with his chin up. He had supernatural speed which let him pull it off MOST OF THE TIME, then there was the Frazier fight where he got his jaw broken as a result.

Ali was never known as a power puncher

And all of Ali's footwork and dancing did nothing when Inoki did something as simple as sit on his butt and kick him in the legs

[rogue]

You're just jealous because Lee was the ultimate martial artist, and a master of the Cha cha too. Bruce never had to work any issues out, why would someone of his stature have issues anyway? Never disrespect Bruce Lee! :mad:

The Real Original Lucky Louie

[lkfmdc]

you're right, I'll never get past his Cha Cha Championship, something I dreamed about but which eluded me

[Shossain]

This is exactly the sort of nonsense that leads people to get tired of the Bruce Lee cult and call it out

JKD isn't the "most advanced", in fact, those who are actively fighting today are doing very little of the stuff that Bruce Lee originally taught. Erik Paulson, Straight Blast, etc have moved beyond the very limited scope of Lee's original teachings

Bruce Lee most certainly did not KO Gene LeBell :rolleyes:
LeBell in fact picked up Lee and carried him around the set, Lee felt humiliated. Le Bell then threw him down and put a straight arm bar on him. And Lee couldn't get out. A lot of people think that later films where Lee uses a bite to get out the same movement is a "working out" emotionally of this incident for Lee

Ali is a legend, but he was also a man, and he also did some things that are not correct in boxing. Ali's head movement was wrong, he pulled straight back with his chin up. He had supernatural speed which let him pull it off MOST OF THE TIME, then there was the Frazier fight where he got his jaw broken as a result.

Ali was never known as a power puncher

And all of Ali's footwork and dancing did nothing when Inoki did something as simple as sit on his butt and kick him in the legs


JKD is no specific style.. but compilation of the best from the better styles.. and it was created as an art and not a style.. so that people can utilize it with an open mind to make improvement of specific individual needs.. so if one can not perform it does not necessarily weaken the position of JKD.. and its openness to accommodate new advanced techniques would always keep it ahead of any other technique as it was created as an art to continuously evolve and not binded by specific style..

No comment on Bruce Lee - LeBell fight as I have not seen any authentic document on that myself..

Nobody is perfect.. but Ali's record does not support much on any claim of weak techniques.. may be it was his style to provoke.. when you take risks accidents may happen.. he won against Fraziar too..

Again if one go through the records Ali stopped many good fighters in a single solid punch that does not support any claim of him not being a power puncher..

The Ali - Inoki fight can not be referred to as a standard.. Inoki was lying at the floor most of the time.. I remember watching it live and we were all very much offended and disappointed to see that technique.. although it worked well for Inoki and may be he would not stand for a single round if he went for a real fight.. and Ali's techniques did not work as he had to go by the boxing rules and could not come and kick Inoki out of the ring.. so this single non-standard reference can not negate the overall effectiveness of dancing..

[PangQuan]

every method that has been found to be able to be utilized in combat is just that.

a method that can be utilzed in combat.

thus, the moment, is the true deciding factor in what techniques can or can not be employed in the altercation/bout.

just the ideal behind budo, a very old ideal that is alive in many of todays martial artists.

the way of war.

ie: crosstraining.

as a warrior one must incorporate as many methods into thier personal system that can be done so without lack of focus on the basics, and the essentials.

which will change according to the time period, or venue you will be utilizing your skills in.

Standard MMA fighter will need a very different game from someone who is simply living on the streets and fighting on a regular basis to survive.

It all depends on what you need. When you can truly see your goals, you will be able to see your drawbacks and weaknesses in relation to the completion of your goal. When you can see this, THEN you can decide what will work best for your particular needs.

[lkfmdc]

It only get's better....



JKD is no specific style.. but compilation of the best from the better styles..


Or, in other words, a mish mash of stuff he picked up along the way...

And he didn't have access to many of the "better styles" did he really? Originaly JKD had very little grappling in it. Lee had very limited access to Muay Thai. His boxing came mostly from watching films of the fights, which would explain why his bag work was HORRIBLE. Ever seen that footage? Standing square in front of the bag, no movement, just hauling off with as big a shot as he cold throw



and it was created as an art and not a style..


Lee was an undergraduate philosophy major, never graduated that I am aware of, and like many undergraduate philosophy students he was fond of stuff that sounded deep but didnt' mean much.



No comment on Bruce Lee - LeBell fight as I have not seen any authentic document on that myself..


Extremely well known in martial arts world and also no surprise when you think Lee was a 130 something guy who had very little hands on experience against a 180 something Judo competitor who had tested his skills on the tatami

You also need to read up on the Ali-Inoki "fight", it was originally going to be a pro wrestling work, until Ali's ego wouldnt' let him "lose" even in a FAKE MATCH where teh host had paid a lot of money to bring him there and was paying him even more to appear.

Money already spent, Ali already in Japan and teh fight already announced, Inoki agreed to a REAL FIGHT, until Ali's camp saw the real fighting that Inoki was getting ready for (under Karl Gotch's hand by the way)

Ali then demanded new rules, including Inoki couldn't use a closed fist, couldn't kick the head, couldn't use suplex or Judo throws and couldn't use any submissions.

Again, Ali was blackmailing Inoki, who had put his entire promotional company in financial distress to bring Ali to Japan. So Inoki agreed.

All of Ali's fancy footwork couldnt' help him against a simple strategy, sit on the floor and kick the legs (Gotch's strategy by the way!)... .

It almost ended Ali's career

[PangQuan]

so i just youtubed teh Ali-Inoki "fight".....

LOL

pathetic. both of them.

im not saying that they werent good fighters, im just saying that was purely pathetic.

why did ali even approach him....just let him lay there.

i have no sound at work? what was the outcome.

did they call the fight on account of no fighting, and them sucking bad?

[PangQuan]

and further more....why couldnt he pull off a sweep.

ali....a boxer....didnt even fall.

looks like the leg kicks were 100% innefective

[lkfmdc]

looks like the leg kicks were 100% innefective

they were so "ineffective" that Ali almost lost his legs and there was a fear he'd never fight again (blood clots)....

[Black Jack II]

http://www.fightauthority.com/street-fight-videos.php?sid=686

Here is a clip if anyone has not seen the infamous fight. If you want to actually call it a fight.:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

is that why they stopped the fight?

if not then were they actually effective for the fight? or just an effetive after effect due to ali's un lucky legs

i still dont see why they stopped

[lkfmdc]

they didn't stop it, it went 15 rounds, 15 boring rounds, to a draw

[PangQuan]

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PangQuan]

ali is just lucky he had the rules he had, or it wouldnt of lasted 1 round

[Knifefighter]

http://www.fightauthority.com/street-fight-videos.php?sid=686

Here is a clip if anyone has not seen the infamous fight. If you want to actually call it a fight.:rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken, I think that was pro wrestler Freddie Blassie in the front of Ali's entourage...

Yep, that was him.

And the referee was non other than Gene LeBell.

I had forgotten all about this fight... the first MMA butt scoot.

I had also forgotten what a bad actor Ali was.

That actaully was pretty fascinating from a strategic perspective... the best heavy weight boxer in the world couldn't land a punch on what was basically a pro wrestler who pretty much kicked his legs to shred and dominated him after taking him down during the short time they were on the ground.

BJ-
Do you know if there is anyplace to get the full 15 rounds?

[PangQuan]

lol

so that was genes hair i saw....****, that man can be spotted by the back of his head.

[lkfmdc]

That actaully was pretty fascinating from a strategic perspective... the best heavy weight boxer in the world couldn't land a punch on what was basically a pro wrestler who pretty much kicked his legs to shred and dominated him after taking him down during the short time they were on the ground.

Unlike later pro wrestling figures like Sayama, Maeda, Funaki, etc Inoki was never thought to be much of a shooter. He did fake matches, they looked fake, he was never much in the gym... but he did have Gotch working with him. Can you imagine if he could have hit with a closed fist, kicked the head, used throws? Use even his bad submissions?

I tihnk the clip shows the public demos that both did to promote teh fight. Story has it that teh rule changes came after Ali's camp saw the kicks and the arm locks

[Knifefighter]

The Ali - Inoki fight can not be referred to as a standard.. Inoki was lying at the floor most of the time.. I remember watching it live and we were all very much offended and disappointed to see that technique.. although it worked well for Inoki and may be he would not stand for a single round if he went for a real fight.. and Ali's techniques did not work as he had to go by the boxing rules and could not come and kick Inoki out of the ring.. so this single non-standard reference can not negate the overall effectiveness of dancing..

Notice how bad the change of fighting style made Ali, the master of flash, look.

Now maybe you can understand why MMA fighters don't "look" quite so crisp and flashy.

[Knifefighter]

and further more....why couldnt he pull off a sweep.

ali....a boxer....didnt even fall.

looks like the leg kicks were 100% innefective

Ineffective? Didn't fall? He was knocked clean off his feet at least twice from thigh kicks in just that short clip.

[PangQuan]

ya i posted that after watching a clip that was edited in ali's favor.

after rewatching the clip dave posted. i eat those words respectfully. :P

but still, i think ali would have been toast if the rules were looser.

i would predict first round submission

[Shossain]

It only get's better....

Or, in other words, a mish mash of stuff he picked up along the way...

And he didn't have access to many of the "better styles" did he really? Originaly JKD had very little grappling in it. Lee had very limited access to Muay Thai. His boxing came mostly from watching films of the fights, which would explain why his bag work was HORRIBLE. Ever seen that footage? Standing square in front of the bag, no movement, just hauling off with as big a shot as he cold throw

Lee was an undergraduate philosophy major, never graduated that I am aware of, and like many undergraduate philosophy students he was fond of stuff that sounded deep but didnt' mean much.

Extremely well known in martial arts world and also no surprise when you think Lee was a 130 something guy who had very little hands on experience against a 180 something Judo competitor who had tested his skills on the tatami

You also need to read up on the Ali-Inoki "fight", it was originally going to be a pro wrestling work, until Ali's ego wouldnt' let him "lose" even in a FAKE MATCH where teh host had paid a lot of money to bring him there and was paying him even more to appear.

Money already spent, Ali already in Japan and teh fight already announced, Inoki agreed to a REAL FIGHT, until Ali's camp saw the real fighting that Inoki was getting ready for (under Karl Gotch's hand by the way)

Ali then demanded new rules, including Inoki couldn't use a closed fist, couldn't kick the head, couldn't use suplex or Judo throws and couldn't use any submissions.

Again, Ali was blackmailing Inoki, who had put his entire promotional company in financial distress to bring Ali to Japan. So Inoki agreed.

All of Ali's fancy footwork couldnt' help him against a simple strategy, sit on the floor and kick the legs (Gotch's strategy by the way!)... .

It almost ended Ali's career



Well.. may be as a free man one has the liberty to make such assessment.. but Bruce showed how to come out of the boundaries of specific styles.. and definitely he did not just picked things but made improvements too.. he did not probably get to know every style but surely studied a lot.. more important s=is that he gave a lot of thoughts on the development of martial arts and did not keep himself limited to any specific style that most other people used to do at his time.. and he could come up with a new concept which others did not even think about..

Some talks against JKD like not having grappling or having very little influence of Muay Thai does not necessarily make JKD weak.. all the styles having a lot of grappling does not have a lot of other tools.. does Muay Thai have a lot of grappling? also does Muay Thai fixes the standards of martial arts.. does it cover all aspects of martial art.. surely it does not..

I did not met Bruce and as such don't have the capacity to judge his knowledge base.. but formal education level does not always indicates that level of knowledge one may attain.. in modern world Bill Gates of Microsoft is a clear example.. someone mentioned about the Tao of Jeet Kune Do here which is a compilation of Bruce's work and surely that is no job of an armature..

In the 1960s There were not too many CDs/DVDs available like we enjoy now a day.. I don't know how Bruce collected all those films as you are referring to learn punching.. and if someone don't like the way he used to punch a bag that does not necessarily mean that he did not know how to punch..

A quote on his strength from someone who knew him well -
Lee's feats of strength are the stuff of legend; from performing push-ups - on one hand! - or thumbs only pushups, to supporting a 125-pound barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds, or sending individuals (who outweighed him by as much as 100 pounds in some instances) flying through the air and landing some 15 feet away as a result of a punch that Lee delivered from only one-inch away, the power that Bruce Lee could generate -- at a mere bodyweight of 135 pounds -- is absolutely frightening.

Surely boxers and wrestlers do not belong to the same ring.. however, here are the rules applied to Ali Inoki fight which looks quote reasonable for such a fight..
Final Rules (June 23rd)

1. TIME
15 3min rounds, with 1min intervals
2. POINTS
5point system by a referee and two judges.
3. UNIFORM
1. Boxing trunks or pro-wrestling pants
2. Boxing shoes or barefoot
3. Boxing glove, karate protective glove, bare hand, or bandaged hand. Different choice can be made for each round.
4. If used, the bandage must be approved by the opponent.
5. Any material can not be applied on the body or gloves unless injured.
4. DECISION
1. Judge: total scores from referee and judges if 15rounds are over.
2. Pinfall: After 3 counts with both shoulders are pinned on the mat
3. Knockout: After 10 counts by knock out
4. Give Up: A competitor or chief second forfeits
5. Injury: If the injury makes the fighter to discontinue. However, only the preassigned doctor can judge the injury.
5. FOULS
1. Hitting below the belt with fist
2. Hitting with knee or elbow
3. Hitting vital part
4. Headbutting
5. Attacking eyes with fingers or open glove
6. Offense after the referee orders a break
7. Hitting the back of the neck or kidney
8. Every chops used in pro-wrestling except slapping
9. Hitting throat Note: kicks regularly used in pro-wrestling are prohibited. However, when the wrestler's knees are on the ground or squatting down, he can use foot or legs to kick the opponent's legs. Must give the opponent a chance to show his will when asking him to give up. In case a big foul is made, referee can disqualify a fighter if he continues to have fouls after the first or second warning.
6. RESTRICTION
1. Boxer must follow the regular boxing rules when standing. Additionally, boxer can use punches on teh ground position. Also, boxer can change to wresting style.
2. Wrestler must follow the regular pro-wrestling rules with the exceptions mentioned above. Wrestler can not use punches when he is using holds but can hit with arm.
3. If fighter(s) touches the rope, referee must break, and both fighters must return to the middle of the ring.
4. If fighter(s) goes out of the ring, he must return to the ring within 20 counts.
5. If knocked out with a punch, 8 counts are given. No offense is allowed during this time.

It was Inoki who made fame out of this game not Ali.. Ali already earned the position where he is now.. and it was Ali who was judged the greatest sportsman of the 20th century which clearly indicates who he was..

[Shossain]

Notice how bad the change of fighting style made Ali, the master of flash, look.

Now maybe you can understand why MMA fighters don't "look" quite so crisp and flashy.


First of all I never said that dancing is mandatory on every situation.. but it helps in many ways.. but it may not be applicable in many circumstances.. specially when the opponent is mostly on the floor..

In my opinion MMA also does not support the idea of staying on floor constantly as a strategy.. even in wrestling those who are weak goes on the floor first and try to spend time there so that the opponent does not get much of a scope to earn some point or knock them out..

[Black Jack II]

Knife,

I googled my a$$ off and checked some other crevices. Nada man.

Antonio Inoki was way ahead of the ball back then. Not only did he tussle, though it was a boring tussle with Ali, he also crossed hands with Kyokushin fighter Willie Williams and judo gold medalist Willhem Rushka.

As for winning a street fight between with Ali or Inoki, whoever posted that question, who really knows who wins what. Ali's boxing sure had what some may term sport leakage if you look at it from a street perspective, the guy was not a street brawler like big T but again he was and will always be da man.

Still like him better when he kept his orginal name though.:D

[lkfmdc]

Antonio Inoki was way ahead of the ball back then. Not only did he tussle, though it was a boring tussle with Ali, he also crossed hands with Kyokushin fighter Willie Williams and judo gold medalist Willhem Rushka.



Those matches, and others billed as "pro wrestling vs martial art" were all fake pro wrestling matches.... some painfully obviously so

However, in many ways those fake matches introduced the era of reall MMA

Inoki had many of the wrestlers under him cross train in order to work those bouts, Sayama was sent to study kickboxing of Toshio Fujiwara (Sayama later formed Shooto). Inoki's "strong style" gave birth to later UWF, which in turn gave us guys like Funaki (Pancrase), Tamura and Sakuraba

[Black Jack II]

lkfmdc,

Which one wore the tiger mask? Forgot who that was?

[Knifefighter]

Sayama was sent to study kickboxing of Toshio Fujiwara (Sayama later formed Shooto).
I trained with Fujiwara in Tokyo way back when at the Mejiro St. Dojo. He was definitely b@d@$$.

[lkfmdc]

I trained with Fujiwara in Tokyo way back when at the Mejiro St. Dojo. He was definitely b@d@$$.

get the flock out of here! Really? That guy is a legend.... tell us more Uncle KF :D

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc,

Which one wore the tiger mask? Forgot who that was?

Sayama was the tiger mask

[Knifefighter]

get the flock out of here! Really? That guy is a legend.... tell us more Uncle KF :D

I trained and fought over there for a while way back in about 79. I was a homesick kid compeletly out of my element over there fighting Japanese pro Muay Thai fighters.

There were three champs- Fuji, Ote, and Shima- who kind of took me under their wings.

Lots of stories, but I don't tell them in public.

[lkfmdc]

Lots of stories, but I don't tell them in public.

?????? :confused: ?????????

[PangQuan]

Vids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lots of stories, but I don't tell them in public.

Sexual abuse is a serious thing, and perhaps it ought to be discussed only with the aid of your chosen therapist. I applaud you for leaving such things out of the public forum.

Just kiddin' KF.....:D :cool:

[rogue]

I trained and fought over there for a while way back in about 79. I was a homesick kid compeletly out of my element over there fighting Japanese pro Muay Thai fighters.

There were three champs- Fuji, Ote, and Shima- who kind of took me under their wings.

Lots of stories, but I don't tell them in public.

Doesn't KF start to roll his eyes when people drop names and then say they can't talk about it?:D

[Knifefighter]

Doesn't KF start to roll his eyes when people drop names and then say they can't talk about it?:D

Just mentioning that I trained with the guy. I don't tell personal stories about people I hang out with.

As far as me, I was just a kid who won some amateur Muay Thai competitions in the states and was selected as part of a team to go over and get our faces mashed in by the pros over there.

It was a great learning and training experience, although I was too immature, homesick and brainwashed to take full advantage of the opportunity I had over there.

[lkfmdc]

I personally don't care for "personal" stuff, but you might talk about the training, the matches, how they were conducted, did any Thais come over while you were there, etc....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I always hear talk about it....

Just how vast is the difference in ability between a foreigner and a Thai in a kickboxing match. People always make it sound like you're throwing Chuck Norris into a cage match with Tito Ortiz.....

[lkfmdc]

I always hear talk about it....

Just how vast is the difference in ability between a foreigner and a Thai in a kickboxing match. People always make it sound like you're throwing Chuck Norris into a cage match with Tito Ortiz.....

Thais are professionals who train everyday in professional camps, start when they are kids, and by the time they are 20 have over 100 matches. Compare that to the average foreigner who may not even start training until he is in his 20's, takes a few sessions a week, etc... in the US, if you have more than 10 matches you suddenly become special, I know a 16 year old Thai kid who like 80 matches!

[Knifefighter]

I personally don't care for "personal" stuff, but you might talk about the training, the matches, how they were conducted, did any Thais come over while you were there, etc....

I spent about the first three weeks recovering from the brutal leg beating I had received during my first match over there.

I had a fight the day after I arrived there. My match was one of the last ones on the card and I remember being completely freaked out as fighters from early matches were carried back into the dressing room on stretchers bloody and beaten up, a couple with huge gashes from elbows. I had never fought with elbows before and was scared spitless.

The matches were full Muay Thai rules, although some of them disallowed elbows. I never did figure out why some had elbows and some did not.

The training was two to three times a day. Most of the fighters lived in a dorm type setting, although I lived with a buddy while I was there.

No Thais came over that I remember, but I think this was right after Shima had won the world MT championships in Thailand. Shima was as awesome a fighter as Fuji was, although he didn't become as famous.

[Knifefighter]

People always make it sound like you're throwing Chuck Norris into a cage match with Tito Ortiz.....

That's about how I felt.

I was training in JKD at the time. Although I was supplementing that with MT training, I was still caught up in the JKD/Bruce Lee mystique and thought my JKD training would give me an advantage.

Boy was I wrong about that.

[Anthony]

The art of fighting without fighting....................It sure is.

By not fighting anyone, Bruce couldn't loose to anyone. In my opinion, by doing this, he HAS lost to everyone. Bruce wasn't a fighter....pure and simple. He started training at 14, came to America at 18. He's been on screen since age 6 and made his name as a film star. The guy was not a figher. A few brawls here and there doesn't cut it. So people who knew him say good things about him. What does that mean. That he had good technique? So? People who know Chuck and Joe say great things about them as well. In Bruce's case it's neither here nor there. All the training in the world doesn't guarantee a good fighter.

As far as my statement about being able to beat him. It's not that outrageous if you have a shred of common sense and aren't mezmorized by everything you see on the big screen. I know lots and I mean lots of MAists who I think could have beaten him. It's only logical to assume they could have for so many reasons. Do I wan't to try to convince anyone that I could have....no, I have no reason to so why bother. I'm simply stating how I feel about it. If you think he could have beaten you then fine for you.

Dan Inosanto.....what's his fight record? Somehow I doubt he even has one.

For all you Bruce worshippers.......I can say that I fealt the same way once.........back when I was 12.

[rogue]

Piffle. Bruce fought and defeated Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Han-Jae Ji, Burt Ward, Dan Inosanto, Bolo, Wong Jak Man and numerous other greats. Add onto that inventing the modern ripped body builder look, cross training, mma and showing that a great actor can make great martial arts movies.





The Real Original Lucky Louie

[sihing]

.....For all you Bruce worshippers.......I can say that I fealt the same way once.........back when I was 12.


So what was that like last year??:p

Sorry I know I shouldn't stup so low, but I saw the opening and the Lat sau jik chung just shot it out...:cool:

Hey man, your free to believe what you want about your own abilities as compared to Bruce's, it is a free country right? The next question is though, who have you fought recently that was known?? It seems know a days if the people that you are fighting/training with aren't known, you have no skills? I think this way of thinking is a croc of sh!t, but whatta I know eh, I still believe the Bruce had quality fighting skills...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

" trained with Fujiwara in Tokyo way back when at the Mejiro St. Dojo. He was definitely b@d@$$." (Knife/Frank)


***NEXT TIME you make it over to Japan...go check out another Fujiwara: Yoshiaki Fujiwara.

Karl Gotch has called him his best student in catch as catch can wrestling....he's now in his early 50's...and it's one of his old training partners (Takada)...that taught catch to Kazushi Sakuraba. Takada lost twice to Rickson, as you probably know...but he was never half the wrestler/fighter Sakuraba or Fujiwara were.

Here's some more of Fujiwara's bio: He was a training partner of Satoru Sayama (SHOOTO founder), Nobuhiko Takada (Takada dojo founder and PRIDE booker), Akira Maeda (Fighting Network RINGS founder), Antonio Inoki, and also assisted in training guys like Minoru Suzuki, Masakatsu Funaki, Ken Shamrock, and Bart Vale.

If not in person....he does have some videos you might want to check out.

He's an ex-pro wrestler who also trained in some kickboxing and judo/jiu jitsu (all of this taking place in Japan, of course)...and he's awesome.

[David Jamieson]

Well, whatever the outcome of that 1976 thing, it's a good argument for training for ranges instead of just hands, or kicks, or throws.

mixing it up and find what works at what range for you is where it's at when it comes to the rundown of the actual knockabout.

If yer kungfu lacks wrestling ability and attributes, get it in their, if your wrestling lacks punching and kicking ability and attributes, you better get that in there.

the evolved fighter who trains for all ranges will almost always beat the fighter who focuses on specificity.

in fighting, purism is what will mess you up good. On that point, Bruce was correct.

the styles all have good stuff in them. so there is no point in bashing, but it is better to recognize that there is no such thing as a complete style.

ranges / attributes / methods. < these count in the for real sense

lineage / stories / tales of the ring < these count for nothing

[Ultimatewingchun]

"the evolved fighter who trains for all ranges will almost always beat the fighter who focuses on specificity." (David Jamieson)


***I'M GONNA steal that one. :cool:

[The Xia]

Piffle. Bruce fought and defeated Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Han-Jae Ji, Burt Ward, Dan Inosanto, Bolo, Wong Jak Man and numerous other greats. Add onto that inventing the modern ripped body builder look, cross training, mma and showing that a great actor can make great martial arts movies.





The Real Original Lucky Louie
Where is the proof of Bruce beating all of these guys? In fact, I've seen much more evidence of Bruce losing to or having a draw with Wong Jack Man then anything else. The only evidence I've seen of him winning that fight is from his wife. Weighed against all the other evidence, that doesn't cut it for me. Bruce didn't invent being ripped either. He also didn't invent cross training or MMA.

[rogue]

Now you're calling his WIDOW a liar? Good god, show some respect for the woman and everything she's been through. Why would she lie? She could have cashed in on his name but she didn't, she even changed her name. As far as the rest check out his movies and the stories about the challenge matches on the set. Produce evidence to the contrary that Bruce was something less than what he was, and still is, the ultimate martial artist!

"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying."

In 2004, UFC president Dana White credited Bruce Lee as the "father of mixed martial arts"


The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Crosshandz]

WONG SHUN LEUNG AND HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH BRUCE LEE (http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm)

written by

Wong Shun Leung



"Heroes are still human beings when you know them well. I have seen how Bruce Lee grew from a small boy to a mature man. In my mind, he will never be a hero or a superman. I only know that he was a friend, a very good friend. He was also a funny man, one with whom you could expose your inner feelings without fear. You could be very frank with him, pointing out his short-comings. So what I am now writing about it, the Bruce Lee in my own eyes. I believe that it will be a more objective and real picture."

-------------- Wong Shun Leung

Read the rest by clicking the linked text.

[The Xia]

Now you're calling his WIDOW a liar? Good god, show some respect for the woman and everything she's been through. Why would she lie? She could have cashed in on his name but she didn't, she even changed her name. As far as the rest check out his movies and the stories about the challenge matches on the set. Produce evidence to the contrary that Bruce was something less than what he was, and still is, the ultimate martial artist!

"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying."

In 2004, UFC president Dana White credited Bruce Lee as the "father of mixed martial arts"


The Real Original Lucky Louie
What does being a widow have to do with her credibility? Others have much different accounts of that fight. I see similarities between those other accounts but not with hers. What does that say? What do you think of this link? http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html
And as for her not cashing in on his name, I doubt that. I can't say for sure because I'm not her accountant, but she did make a book which was made into a movie.
I also heard stories about challenge matches on the set of his movies. I can't say which ones are true and which aren't. Some of them don't even portray Bruce in that great of a light. Isn't there a story about him picking on some teenager on one of the sets?
And where is this evidence that he is the ultimate martial artist? I certainly don't see any. What about that little incident with Judo Gene LeBell? What about the other stories of him losing?
And I don't care what Dana White has to say about Bruce Lee being the father of MMA. First of all, what do you mean by MMA? Do you mean cross training? If so, Bruce Lee certainly didn’t invent that. Do you mean realistic fighting venues? Those have been around way before Bruce Lee. In terms of modern MMA venues, most cite Vale Tudo and Japanese Shoot Wrestling as being predecessors.
And what is with this “The Real Original Lucky Louie” stuff? To me, you are sounding all around like a Bruce obsessor. I’m no hater but let’s be real.

Crosshandz,
Thanks for the link. Interesting read.

[rogue]

Why Mrs. Cadwell matters is twofold, she was there, and a wife can see what honestly happened with out prejudice. I'm not sure who the others giving the other accounts of the fight are but I doubt they were there or if they were could understand the colossal battle being waged. I'm sure it was at that high a level.
Teenagers can be dangerous and if Bruce did go medieval on his tush I'm sure he deserved it. As far as the incident with the Judoman we can't really say what happened since Bruce isn't here to give his side of the story.

This turned out to be real/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0opbJULocpw&mode=related&search=

Bruce defeats one of the worlds best martial artist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhw1jrKQ3Us

I'm not a Bruce obsessor, just someone who appreciates what Great Grand Master Lee did to change the world.

I am...
The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Anthony]

"Sorry I know I shouldn't stup so low, but I saw the opening and the Lat sau jik chung just shot it out... "

No problem......it wasn't that witty anyway. Like you said, I'm free to believe what I want. I'd rather leave it at that. It's amazing so many people don't feel that way and get all up in arms. They can't just admit we're all human. Oh no......one person is mortal and the other a God.......why? Because one is in the movies, becase one is famous. What can you do?.....people will be childish. Hence my comment. I was star-struck as a kid and thought he could really fight like that but you grow up and out of it.

Another point........you wanna know who I have fought so you can judge my fighting ability (which is fine) but you don't judge Bruce Lee by the same method. Who has he fought? And yet, you believe that he's a great fighter.......well, why not just believe that I'm great as well. Bruce hasn't fought for that recognition and yet I have to. Again, the influence of media. It's a double standard it seems. To some Bruce will always be better than Joe Lewis but not to me. Not with regards to fighting.

Like DR said above there's no evidence that he's a great fighter so there's no point in going on and on. I give him respect for all that he's accomplished with his life and how far came. He made himself a MA icon. I was and still am a fan. I just look at it/him differently as an adult with my own MA ability. I'd respect him as a fighter but there's no reason to........unless your gonna believe what you see in the movies. It's really a dead end topic.


"What does being a widow have to do with her credibility?"

Famous people have their personal lives and then they have their public image. Public image is carefully crafted for marketing. Linda, I think, is simply trying to maintain the public image of Bruce rather than change it after all these years. I don't believe that the challenge match BL had ever really happened. Personally I think it could have been made up for the sake of publicity.


"She could have cashed in on his name but she didn't, she even changed her name"

She didn't?.....she just wrote a book and made a movie about his life that was more sensationalist than factual.

[rogue]

Famous people have their personal lives and then they have their public image. Public image is carefully crafted for marketing. Linda, I think, is simply trying to maintain the public image of Bruce rather than change it after all these years. I don't believe that the challenge match BL had ever really happened. Personally I think it could have been made up for the sake of publicity.

Tell that to Wong Jack Man. He'd have saved himself a lot of trouble if he had said the fight never happened.


you wanna know who I have fought so you can judge my fighting ability (which is fine) but you don't judge Bruce Lee by the same method.
With all due respect, no. This thread is about Great Grand Master Bruce Lee and how one man changed the world. Bruce Lee will live forever as the ultimate martial artist.

The Real Original Lucky Louie

[sihing]

"Sorry I know I shouldn't stup so low, but I saw the opening and the Lat sau jik chung just shot it out... "

No problem......it wasn't that witty anyway. Like you said, I'm free to believe what I want. I'd rather leave it at that. It's amazing so many people don't feel that way and get all up in arms. They can't just admit we're all human. Oh no......one person is mortal and the other a God.......why? Because one is in the movies, becase one is famous. What can you do?.....people will be childish. Hence my comment. I was star-struck as a kid and thought he could really fight like that but you grow up and out of it.

Another point........you wanna know who I have fought so you can judge my fighting ability (which is fine) but you don't judge Bruce Lee by the same method. Who has he fought? And yet, you believe that he's a great fighter.......well, why not just believe that I'm great as well. Bruce hasn't fought for that recognition and yet I have to. Again, the influence of media. It's a double standard it seems. To some Bruce will always be better than Joe Lewis but not to me. Not with regards to fighting.

Like DR said above there's no evidence that he's a great fighter so there's no point in going on and on. I give him respect for all that he's accomplished with his life and how far came. He made himself a MA icon. I was and still am a fan. I just look at it/him differently as an adult with my own MA ability. I'd respect him as a fighter but there's no reason to........unless your gonna believe what you see in the movies. It's really a dead end topic.


"What does being a widow have to do with her credibility?"

Famous people have their personal lives and then they have their public image. Public image is carefully crafted for marketing. Linda, I think, is simply trying to maintain the public image of Bruce rather than change it after all these years. I don't believe that the challenge match BL had ever really happened. Personally I think it could have been made up for the sake of publicity.


"She could have cashed in on his name but she didn't, she even changed her name"

She didn't?.....she just wrote a book and made a movie about his life that was more sensationalist than factual.

The difference is there is tons of footage of Bruce performing martial arts, and none of you for all to see, so therefore why should anyone here take your word for it? Of course his movies are staged fighting sequences, I realize that, and that alone does not make him a great fighter, otherwise Jackie and Jet would be on the same level. It's the other things that I have read, seen, heard, saw, investigated that have brought me to believe that Bruce could fight and do so at a high level. A good question is, can you recognize fighting skills (or possible skills) through watching someone move in a fighting environment. For eg, Sly Stallone in the Rocky movies, especially in Rocky 3, exibited pretty good boxing skills. Were they world class enough to fight the best of the best? Nope, and even Sly says that, but he did have skills in the art of boxing, you can't fake it because you can see him doing on the screen. Bruce is the same way, but the thing is there are personal account from people that also tell about his power, speed, timing and other attributes and also about what he thought about fighting in general. The thing is the man choose to be a actor and to promote Martial arts that way. Quite frankly, in the day and age Bruce was alive, there was no venue to prove "Ulimate Fighting Ability". Bruce wasn't a boxer, nor wrestler, plus these are sports and back then really did not prove sh!t about a persons true fighting ability (speaking about sports and judo guys, didn't a olympic class judo guy praise Bruce's abilities, someone he trained with?). Today's MMA comp's are more realistic than the comp's available back in Bruce's day, so comparing him to what is avaliable today is unrealistic. Today someone can make a living fighting in a MA environment, and if your good enough you can get access to the best trainers, sponsors and other things that make someone interested in those things more easily able to fight in those comp's. Bruce would be much better in today's environment if he was born in 1980, 40 yrs later.

James

[rogue]

Today's MMA comp's are more realistic than the comp's available back in Bruce's day, so comparing him to what is avaliable today is unrealistic.

Say what?:eek: While I have been in fights that involved a chain link fence, my adversaries weren't a bunch of pretty boy body builders wearing Speedos and mittens. Let's all get a grip and accept that MMA is merely a sport, what Bruce, Chuck and Bob Wall were doing back in the day was the real thing. And most of those movie fights were all out real fights between guys trying to prove who was the top dog. Maybe if they had an outlet like UFC those guys wouldn't have dam near killed each other during filming and ending each others movie careers.




The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Knifefighter]

BL was OK for a cha cha dancer, but Anthony could have easily beaten him.

As a rule cha cha dancers aren't really that good at fighting. They are better than the ballroom guys but not nearly as good as the Sasla and Tango guys.

BL was kind of like Yao Sing. He danced around and fought in the movies, but not too much else, other than beating up a few teenagers and a kung fu instructor (and we know how good those guys are at fighting).

He was petrified and in awe when he finally saw what a real Grandmaster like Gene Lebell could do.

[Shaolinlueb]

i like how people say they study the style of JKD. it isnt a style its a philosaphy. i bet bruce is rolling in his grave right now.

[The Xia]

a kung fu instructor
Which Kung Fu instructor did Bruce Lee beat? And please don't tell me Wong Jack Man.
rogue,
I think I get it. You are joking?

[rogue]

Say WHAT!?:mad:

The fact that he was a CHAMPION dancer means that he could move better than just about anyone. Movement and balance means that even someone like Tito would have a hard time taking Bruce down, and that's without Bruce even having to strike back. So give me a break.

Bruce fought hundreds of roof top fights. Fights with no mats, no fences, that resulted in thousands of deaths.

Sorry, but I need to see film footage of Mr. Lebell choking Bruce out. The very idea is insane.

And no, I'm not joking about Bruce. When I was a kid Bruce Lee kind of saved my life, and for that I'll always be in his debt. RIP GS Lee.

The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Knifefighter]

Which Kung Fu instructor did Bruce Lee beat?

Opps, my bad... I meant dance instructor. He beat up some ballroom dance instructor who was trying to steal his cha-cha students.

[NJM]

Opps, my bad... I meant dance instructor. He beat up some ballroom dance instructor who was trying to steal his cha-cha students.

How about you get a ****ing life and stop dissing a guy who never bragged about himself and worked hard to make it so that he was not revered after his death. He was a humble person who just wanted to enlighten us about martial arts. People have made him into a god'like figure and yes, that's wrong. But he was a very learned student in Wing Chun; he was also able to complete a northern style's forms in only a few weeks to near-perfection.

He was good at what he did, and saying that he was a fraud isn't consistant with the whole problem of actual records and facts, not bull**** your MA instructor told you.

[drleungjohn]

Anybody have a recent picture of the guy-I have seen the one in black and white from years ago-but nothing now--

[Siu Lum Fighter]

If you go to www.jingmo.org there are a few pictures there. WJM was a truely great grandmaster who Bruce Lee failed to beat.

[Knifefighter]

How about you get a ****ing life and stop dissing a guy who never bragged about himself and worked hard to make it so that he was not revered after his death. He was a humble person who just wanted to enlighten us about martial arts.

A guy who named a system after himself? That was humble?

Well, I guess he was humbled after Grandmaster Gene "The Kung Fu Killer" Lebell beat his @$$.



People have made him into a god'like figure and yes, that's wrong. But he was a very learned student in Wing Chun;

He only studied for a few years. Is that all it takes to master the system? Kind of like Tae Kwon Do... two years and you are a black belt.


he was also able to complete a northern style's forms in only a few weeks to near-perfection. .

A few weeks??? I guess that shows the depth of that system. Of course we are talking about forms here. Any off-broadway show dancer, who is used to choreographed dancing, could pretty much do that.


.
He was good at what he did, and saying that he was a fraud isn't consistant with the whole problem of actual records and facts, not bull**** your MA instructor told you.

Records and facts:
- Couldn't act.
- Couldn't sing.
- Could dance a little.
- Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire would have kicked his @$$- and might have actaully done so one night in a drunken brawl.

[Knifefighter]

If you go to www.jingmo.org there are a few pictures there. WJM was a truely great grandmaster who Bruce Lee failed to beat.

Another guy who would have been smoked if he would have crossed hands with Grandmaster LeBell.

[iron tiger]

Dan Inosanto.....what's his fight record?

Watching Bruce Lee work out.

:D

[rogue]

Another guy who would have been smoked if he would have crossed hands with Grandmaster LeBell.

Since when are 2nd rate actors Grandmasters?:mad:

And it's only unsubstantiated rumour that Mr Labell choked him. And only after Bruce let himself be choked because Mr Lebell couldn't take him down. If it happened.


The Real Original Lucky Louie

[rogue]

Watching Bruce Lee work out.

:D

Dan is Bruce's greatest creation so don't dismiss Dan. I will admit that after Bruce died Dan has been kind of a boat adrift at sea, but he still has some of the skills that Bruce gave him.

The Real Original Lucky Louie

[Blacktiger]

Your not gonna start knocking Dan Inosanto :confused:

[Knifefighter]

Dan Inosanto.....what's his fight record?


Watching Bruce Lee work out.

Inosanto is a BJJ black belt, which means he would pwn any kung fu master, considering a kung fu guy has never beaten a BJJ black belt.

[Knifefighter]

Dan is Bruce's greatest creation so don't dismiss Dan. I will admit that after Bruce died Dan has been kind of a boat adrift at sea, but he still has some of the skills that Bruce gave him.

The Real Original Lucky Louie

He has gone on to master about 12 different martial arts, including receiving the coveted BJJ blackbelt (which takes about 10 years of continuous training to obtain), and has run a successful martial arts school for about 30 years.

Everyone should be that adrift.

[Blacktiger]

Dan Inosanto is one of the most well rounded and experienced martial artists around -nuff said.

He's built on the kung fu base and gone from there....

[rogue]

He has gone on to master about 12 different martial arts, including receiving the coveted BJJ blackbelt (which takes about 10 years of continuous training to obtain), and has run a successful martial arts school for about 30 years.

Everyone should be that adrift.

But can he cha cha or do the fox trot? ;)

Seriously, Inosanto is the martial artist Bruce Lee wished he was.

[drleungjohn]

Thanks-I have been to that web page and have seen the pics-that's why I asked for more recent ones--

[rogue]

Knifefighter, I'm turning this over to you, The Real Original Lucky Louie is retiring from this thread. Maybe I'll come up with a new handle and hang out on the Wing Chun forum. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Seriously, Inosanto is the martial artist Bruce Lee wished he was." (rogue)


***AND seriously...Dan Inosanto would be the first to tell you that if Bruce Lee were alive all these years - it would be Dan who would be doing the wishing. :rolleyes: :cool:

He knew who Bruce was and where he was going.

Here's some quotes from the first book Dan ever wrote, in 1976: JEET KUNE DO (The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee)...

"I was in the right place at the right time, and I was willing to sacrifice at any length to study under Bruce." (P.13)

...(after sparring with Bruce for the very first time)..."I couldn't sleep that night; I was really bothered because it (Lee's fighting style) was something that I'd never seen before. It was like having learned an occupation for many years and then having someone say, 'We no longer have any use for you.' In my case, I'd studied all these different arts - I won't say it was worthless - but what he did was counter everything without really trying." (P.16)

"As early as 1964 at the first Internationals, I had introduced Bruce to the art of Escrima. At that time, however, he took a pretty dim view of it. Then later when I visited him in Hong Kong (1973), he told me what he liked and what he didn't like about Escrima. I think what changed his mind was the emphasis on the empty hands and seeing that it had a lot of functional value. And I was really flabbergasted when he grabbed the sticks one day and said, 'OK, now I'll show you what I would do.' I watched him closely, and with no previous background or training he ad libbed a style of Escrima that he never could have known even existed. Shocked, I yelled out, "Hey, that's Largo Mano." Bruce said, "I don't know what you call it, but this is my method." (P.149)


***You guys really need to get a clue about this man. If he were 33 years old today, he'd be Sakuraba with the hands and knees of Wanderlai...only faster. :eek: ;) :D

[Anthony]

"The difference is there is tons of footage of Bruce performing martial arts, and none of you for all to see, so therefore why should anyone here take your word for it? "

It's about what "I" believe, not what I want you or anyone else to believe. And I agree, Bruce was a great performer and yes, his friends were impressed with him. That's nice but it doesn't make anyone a great fighter in my book.

[msg]

this has been going for to long it all come down to what you want to beleave most of you are ignorant and think bruce wasn't a real fighter so just beleave what you want in your little world..this thread should be droped