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Andy62
02-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Since I first became interested in Isometrics in the 1950s I have read every article and book that I could find on them. "The Isometric Power Revolution" is by far the best and most comprehensive book ever written on the subject. It features 282 information packed pages covering every aspect of isometrics. It contains 8 chapters, is fully illustrated, contains numerous photographs and exercise descriptions and will definitely become the classic of the field.

Isometrics may be the ultimate stand alone form of exercise,but certainly they are an indispensible part of any strength and muscle building exercise program. They got a bad rap in the 1960s when it was discovered that their main promoter and advocate, U.S Olympic Weightlifting Coach Bob Hoffman, in addition to training his lifters with isometrics was also using steroids and people wrongly assumed that the fantastic strength gains that the lifters were making were totally the result of the steroids.
Isometrics are being rediscovered and and their popularity has been increasing recently , however, the use of isometrics to develop muscle and strength goes back to ancient times. The Isometric Power Revolution has an excellent fully illustrated chapter on the history of isometrics that contains over 50 pages.

Isometrics are superior to regular weightlifting because of the 'synapse' effect . When you are performing a standard bench press, for instance, it will take you one or two seconds to move through the entire range of motion yet there is only one point in the range of motion where you are applying maximum strength and the duration of the effort at that point may last only a fraction of a second. Our bodies use only the minimum number of muscle fibers required to perform a movement so the maximum number of fibers are only used at that point of maximum intensity which lasts only a fraction of a second. Conversely with an isometric exercise you are applying maximum tension for the full duration of the contraction whether it be 10 seconds, 12 seconds or longer and as a result you are contracting maximum muscle fibers for the entire length of time that you are performing the exercise.

The author,John Peterson is the President and founder of Bronze Bow Publishing and is the creator of the Transformetrics™ Training System which provides a person with everything they need to know to become supremely fit. He has over 30 years experience as a strength and fitness expert and is the author of several exercise books and DVDs in addition to "The Isometric Power Revolution," including "Pushing Yourself To Power," "The Miracle Seven" and "Thje Trinity Of Health."

The "Isometric Power Revolution " is a must for anyone seriously interested in the development of strength and muscle.
http://www.bronzebowpublishing.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_book_info&cPath=1&products_id=97

Golden Arms
02-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Isometrics are awesome, however, I dont think a person should do them all by themself without supplementary weight bearing type exercises of some sort. Pavel talks about the importance building the confidence in the joints ability to bear weight, and there is some truth to that. For example: In hung isometrics are often used, but we also hit bags, do pushups and use some weights as well, so that your structure is also strengthened. All that being said, many people havent heard of the UK man Charles Bronson, that has been in solitary for well over 20 years. He has set some strength world records, even though he is not allowed to lift any weights, but using dynamic tension and isometric workouts, as well as tons of pushups.

Andy62
02-08-2007, 11:42 AM
The book separates "isometrics" from what it calls "Power Flexing." Isometrics are defined as pushing or pulling against an external object or another body where "Power flexing" is simply flexing your muscles or going through a range of motion with the dynamic or internal tension providing all of the resistance. I think Pavel is referring to the latter approach. It would seem to me that isometrics as defined by working against external resistance would provide the bone, tendon ans ligament strenthening you refer too. In any case do what works for you,but whether combined with some other training activity or used as a stand alone system isometrics are a valuable tool to have.

Ford Prefect
02-08-2007, 12:46 PM
Isometrics are not even close to as valuable in athletic training as other modalities. They are a good supplemental tool to use, but let's not get carried away.

Andy62
02-08-2007, 02:17 PM
Everyone ahould work them into their training on whatever basis they feel appropriate.

Andy62
02-12-2007, 10:54 AM
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/shenandoah/OBB/Peterson.html

Ford Prefect
02-15-2007, 12:35 PM
I love the mention of Charles Atlas. I guess they don't know he primarily lifted weights and just shilled the isometrics to comic book geeks. As I said, isometrics are a great supllement to an otherwise well-rounded regimen. On their own, you are wasting your time and energy on something that doesn't have anywhere near the returns of other methods.

Andy62
02-15-2007, 12:54 PM
I guess we just disagree on that. I don't think that the use of just one type of exercise is the best approach whether it is isometrics or weights,but isometrics have been under promoted due to a number of factors,not the least of which is that it is more profitable to manufacture various types of equipment. Atlas did lift weights as advertised in the below linked early brochure [scroll down to page 7], but he didn't have a weightlifters build [look at the thin legs]. His build was more like that of a circus aerialist which can be obtained by the exercises that he used to get it and were taught in his course.



http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Atlas/SMPB/smpb01.htm

SevenStar
02-15-2007, 01:27 PM
it's hopeless ford, give up...

SevenStar
02-15-2007, 01:31 PM
Isometrics are superior to regular weightlifting because of the 'synapse' effect . When you are performing a standard bench press, for instance, it will take you one or two seconds to move through the entire range of motion yet there is only one point in the range of motion where you are applying maximum strength and the duration of the effort at that point may last only a fraction of a second. Our bodies use only the minimum number of muscle fibers required to perform a movement so the maximum number of fibers are only used at that point of maximum intensity which lasts only a fraction of a second. Conversely with an isometric exercise you are applying maximum tension for the full duration of the contraction whether it be 10 seconds, 12 seconds or longer and as a result you are contracting maximum muscle fibers for the entire length of time that you are performing the exercise.

and you only get stronger in the area of contraction, possibly a few degrees further out, but not throughout the entire range of motion.

Also, as you stated, muscles are lazy. They need progressive resistance in order to keep stimulating growth.

Ford Prefect
02-15-2007, 01:32 PM
I know. My point isn't really to bother with Andy. It's for anybody else reading it who may think there is much truth at all to what he is posting. Don't want people being misled. It is my soft, kind heart. :)

Andy62
02-15-2007, 01:56 PM
Anybody that isn't using isometrics to some degree is not getting the full effect from their training. The key is to use them at three key points of the desired range of motion and not do a contraction at just one position. The progressive resistance is supplied by your mind which learns to concentrate and apply greater force.

SevenStar
02-15-2007, 03:20 PM
so your mind just magically knows when it's applying 315 lbs of resistance and knows that it's applying 10lbs more than that at the next session?

Andy62
02-15-2007, 03:41 PM
I'm not saying that your mind can quantify the force into a poundage amount,but it will intuitively become stronger and stronger as you push it to the limit. Remember that 315 pound weight that you are lifting is only delivering maximum resistance for a fraction of a second as you move through the range of motion. While it is true that a weightlifter will be better at the specificity for lifting weights that strength will not totally transfer to other activities. Many of the oldtime strongmen who used isometrics could defeat weightlifters at non weightlifting feats. Alexander Zass was a great iron bender and could defeat weightlifters at that activity. The Mighty Atom could defeat the famous Coney Island Strongman and weightlifter Waren Lincoln Travis at strand pulling eventhough Travis out weighed him by about 50 pounds. All that I am suggesting is that isometrics have been played down by the equipment manufacturers and that they are now getting renewed interest and enthusiasm and are at the very least a interesting addition to any training program. They build a more enduring wiry type of strength than weights and aerobic isometrics which can be applied up to several minutes and build endurance.

SevenStar
02-15-2007, 04:14 PM
I'm not saying that your mind can quantify the force into a poundage amount,but it will intuitively become stronger and stronger as you push it to the limit.

the mind is not what makes the body stronger, per se. force output is a function of the neuromuscular system. Heavy weight stimulates the hard contractions.



Remember that 315 pound weight that you are lifting is only delivering maximum resistance for a fraction of a second as you move through the range of motion. While it is true that a weightlifter will be better at the specificity for lifting weights that strength will not totally transfer to other activities.

sure it does. olympic lifts incorporate the entire body. that translates extremely well to other activities, which is why athletes lift.


Many of the oldtime strongmen who used isometrics could defeat weightlifters at non weightlifting feats. Alexander Zass was a great iron bender and could defeat weightlifters at that activity. The Mighty Atom could defeat the famous Coney Island Strongman and weightlifter Waren Lincoln Travis at strand pulling eventhough Travis out weighed him by about 50 pounds. All that I am suggesting is that isometrics have been played down by the equipment manufacturers and that they are now getting renewed interest and enthusiasm and are at the very least a interesting addition to any training program. They build a more enduring wiry type of strength than weights and aerobic isometrics which can be applied up to several minutes and build endurance.

any CMA guy can hold a longer horse stance than most powerlifters - there is a difference between muscular endurance and muscular strength. however, that same CMA guy will not be as strong overall as the powerlifter. it's not a "wiry strength" - it's muscular endurance.

Andy62
02-15-2007, 04:29 PM
I totally disagree. It is not the weight resistance,but the strength of the contraction that counts. It doesn't matter whether that contraction is being generated by weight resistance or a stricly mental stimulus. I would submit that the more enduring resistance of isometrics may be more optimal for combat sports than the momentary resistance provided by lifting weights.

Chief Fox
02-15-2007, 05:53 PM
I'm sure that we all know that there is no holly grail of fitness. There are many ways to achieve desired results. Some ways are better than others.

Isometrics might be a great way to develop strength or power but they are not the only way and honestly, probably not the best.

One thing I have read is, isometrics are a great way to work on a specific weak spot in a range of motion.

For example, let's say that I want to work on handstand pushups and I've noticed that at a certain point through my range of motion, I stall in a certain area. This may indicate that this particular point is a week spot. With Isometrics, I could work on my strength in that exact area of my range of motion.

Workouts like this could benenfit gymnasts.

Stance training is a form of isometrics. I'm sure that we are all familiar with the benefits of stance training but IMO, for leg strength, nothing beats squats.

But, like it was mentioned earlier, isometrics could be a great supplement to an existing routine. They would also be helpful in the absence of traditional resistance training equipment like weights.

Andy62
02-15-2007, 07:50 PM
I basicly agree with what you have said. I think a total training program should involve multiple types of exercise. At the same time I believe that the equipment manufacturers took the problem with Bob Hoffman of the York Barbell Company mixing the progress from isometrics with the progress with steroids and did a very smart marketing move in giving all of the credit to steroids and none to isometrics and in effect "throwing out the baby with the bath water." We have heard from several people on this site that bought into that "storyline" and it is a brilliant marketing approach and obviously "hooked "several people - "there is one born every minute." Now that isometrics are being re-evaluated and are again a hot topic you will see some success stories coming forward.

SevenStar
02-16-2007, 12:19 AM
I totally disagree. It is not the weight resistance,but the strength of the contraction that counts. It doesn't matter whether that contraction is being generated by weight resistance or a stricly mental stimulus. I would submit that the more enduring resistance of isometrics may be more optimal for combat sports than the momentary resistance provided by lifting weights.

your mind cannot provide more of a stimulus than a stack of weights.with all of the studies available,if this were so, don't you think elite athletes would be focussing on isometrics if this were true? even the bodyweight movements they do use - they aren't isometrics, typically. why do you suppose this is?

Andy62
02-16-2007, 12:54 AM
The heck it can't. When you are lifting weights your main focus is on the lifting of weights,but with isometrics it is on your mind and you are developing your mind as well as your body. they are coming back and Soviet reseach proves it along with other scientific methods.


(8/16/06 11:19 am)
Reply | Edit Pavel on isometrics
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ISOMETRICS: IRON FOSSIL OR SECRET WEAPON?
by Pavel


Scientists dabbled with isometrics, or muscle contractions against
stationary objects, as far back as the 1920s. Then in 1953 German
scientists Hettinger and Maller shook the muscle world with their
study that concluded that you can add 5% to your strength a week by
pushing or pulling against a stationary object once a day. Just once,
only for six seconds, and at mere two thirds of a max effort!

Weightlifters and martial artists quickly jumped on the bandwagon. The
former pushed and pulled empty bars against power rack pins; the
latter tried to tear their black belts apart and pushed through walls
with back fists.

Enter the Dragon.

But isos went out of fashion around the time of Bruce Lee's mysterious
death, for reasons that had nothing to do with the effectiveness of
this ingeniously simple method: the emergence of anabolic
steroids--and the seep of flakiness and trendiness into the fitness
world.

It is time to bring this secret weapon back.

Prof. Verkhoshansky (1977) lists the six advantages of isometrics,
slightly paraphrased below.

1. Accessibility of isometrics to everyone.

Although certain sport-specific applications of isometrics require
specialized equipment such as power racks, generally you can manage
with such mundane items as a wall, rope, stick, doorway, or chair.

2. The ability to train any muscle at very precise angles.

A great benefit when you are trying to overcome a sticking point in a
lift.

3. Great efficiency.

In the words of Prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky himself, "...a ten minute
session of isometric tensions in specially selected exercises will
replace a tiring one hour of weight training."

4. Insignificant muscle and bodyweight gains when compared to dynamic
exercises.

This may or may not be an advantage from your
point of view. The extent of muscle hypertrophy depends on the
training protocol. Recent studies have registered respectable muscle
growth from isometrics. For instance, Garfinkel & Cafarelli (1992)
found a 14.6% increase in the cross-section of the knee extensors
following eight weeks of isometric training. Increasing the duration
of the contractions to a minute and longer, as explained below, is
likely to yield even greater muscle gains--if you need them.

5. The ability to maintain high levels of speed-strength during
important competitions due to the fact that isometrics expend a lot
less time and energy than lifting weights.

6. Great for improving and fixing athletic technique.

Quoting Prof. Verkhoshansky, isometrics offer "A better opportunity to
memorize the proper positions visually and kinesthetically than the
dynamic mode. This makes the isometric method especially valuable for
teaching and mistake correction."

I shall extrapolate on this subtle but extremely important point. Let
us use the military press as an example. In order to put up the
heaviest weight safely you need to ‘wedge’ yourself between the
barbell and the ground, every muscle tight. It is not an easy skill to
learn with a live weight but a piece of cake with isometrics. Stand
inside a doorway, on a stool if necessary, put your hands up against
the molding, and press. You will naturally tense up your legs and
waist. Remember that feeling when you press a barbell.

The 'wedge' is just as effective for quick moves. I use it to improve
my military and law enforcement clients' striking technique and power.
On my Martial Power: Hard Hitting Combat Secrets from the Russian
Special Ops videos you can see an obvious improvement in a
professional kickboxer's kicks and cage fighter's punches after just
two days.

What are the disadvantages of isometrics?

Suren Bogdasarov (1991), the coach of Russian weightlifting legend
Yuri Vlasov, lists three drawbacks of isometrics. First, they are
counter-indicated for people with high blood pressure and heart
problems. Second, your muscles could lose their elasticity. The
solution is simple: massage your muscles and shake them to relax
between sets. Third, it is easy to lose your sense of exertion.
Bogdasarov recommends varying the intensity of isometric contractions
to address this problem, for instance an easy set followed by an
all-out set.

Prof. Alexey Medvedev (1986) urges caution in applying isometric
exercises to children and teenagers. He also warns that strength
development plateaus after six to eight weeks of isometric training.
This is not a problem as you are not supposed to train isometrically
full time anyway. Go iso for a month or two, then go back to your
regular strength training. Summer is the ideal time for an isometric
only routine.

How often?

Scientists disagree on a lot of things but not on the frequency of
isometric training: daily training is ideal (Atha, 1981). It does not
mean that you cannot train less frequently; you just will not gain as
much. According to Hettinger (1961}, training every other day delivers
only 80% of the strength gains of daily training and training once a
week yields only 40%.

SevenStar
02-16-2007, 03:54 AM
1. those studies are old.
2. even in the study, it noted improvement in the area being trained specifically.

that being the case, they themselves are not very sports specific. as one of your studies mentioned, they can cause one to lessen aggression / exertion.

mickey
02-16-2007, 08:41 AM
Greetings,

There really is no either or to this matter. An integrated approach is better than either alone.

Mike Dayton, the author of CHI Mind Control, advocated weightlifting in addition to the isometric exercises he showed.

The late Otto Arco, a master of muscle controls, advocated weight training and taught weight training methods in his correspondence courses.

Sifu John Allen also advocated weightlifting in addition to the strength training methods he teaches.

It has also been my observation that those who lift weights IN CONJUNCTION to whatever strength enhancement method (i.e. Isometrics) progressed faster. The converse of my statement has also been observed.

I really do not like to bring up the name of Bruce Lee because people are trying so hard to worship him; but, his strength training approach was integrated. He was not the exception. Somewhere in the development of weightlifting a schism developed between the hardcore strength training methods and the body aesthetic (to which the term bodybuilding has been applied). Isometrics and body controls, unfortunately, were associated with bodybuilding and slowly fell out of favor with hardcore strength trainers.


mickey

mickey
02-16-2007, 08:52 AM
Greetings again,

I did not see the statement that associates the decrease is isometric exercises with the death of Bruce Lee. That was pure krappola.


mickey

Ford Prefect
02-16-2007, 09:54 AM
Andy,

Can you tell me what the man you are purporting as a champion of isometrics, Yuri Verkoshansky, preferred methods of training athletes are? Hint: They don't involve isometrics. ;)

Andy62
02-16-2007, 10:03 AM
Sure an integrated approach is the best. Actually the decline in isometrics was due to the fact that Bob Hoffman[The US Olympic Weightlifting Coach and the main promoter of isometrics in the 1960s] while promoting isometrics was also giving steroids to his lifters and people falsely believed that the all of the progress was due to isometrics. The equipment manufacturers jumped on that because you don't need a lot of equipmnt to practice isometrics -nobody had a vested financial interest in promoting them. The current popularity in isometrics was probably started by strongman Steve Justas' book "Rock Iron Steel" where he reported great results from isometrics-particularly "aerobic isometrics." Matt Furey later picked up the concept and promoted it in "Gama Fitness." With the internet, new publishing and distribution techniques; the strangle hold of equipment manufacturers has now been released .

Andy62
02-16-2007, 10:30 AM
Ford, Check out "SUPERTRAINING" by Mel Siff & Verkhoshansky

Ford Prefect
02-16-2007, 02:57 PM
I own Superfitness and have read it many times. Have you?

lol @ mentioning Furey. Sweet, so the greatness is isometrics is as reliable as say... I don't know... chanelling the ghost of Farmer Burns and selling the fitness concepts that he told you. heh

Andy62
02-16-2007, 03:13 PM
How could anyone read those quotes by Verkhoshansky in Pavel's article and say that he is not an advocate of isometrics?

Whether you like Furey or not you have to admit that he is the ultimate promoter and if he is on to something it is really hot.

Ford Prefect
02-17-2007, 12:04 AM
How could anyone read those quotes by Verkhoshansky in Pavel's article and say that he is not an advocate of isometrics?

Whether you like Furey or not you have to admit that he is the ultimate promoter and if he is on to something it is really hot.

Furey is the ultimate promoter for people who buy into the whole "there are fitness secrets which only a select few can reveal to me" angle. If you are smarter than that, then Furey's advertising is over-the-top and laughable.

It's easy to take somebody's quotes out of context and make it appear they are arguing for something they are not. For instance, Pavel not only paraphrased Verkoshansky's list so that it suited his case, but he also flat-out misquoted him. Nevermind the fact that those qotes are from Verkoshansky outlining what isometrics proponents believe are the advantages.

This does appear in Supertraining (which you'd know if you read it), and is followed by a list of drawbacks. Supertraining in and of itself is a theoretical text that puts forth a lot of informaton to give a well-rounded picture of strength and conditioning training and the science behind it. It doesn't have recommended training; only various methods to achieve certain goals with the supporting and rebutting science. The onus is on the reader to determine optimal training plans and implementation. If you look at Yuri's actual training texts like Fundementals of Strength Training and High-level Track & Field training, you'd see where he actually places isometrics in his training guidelines.

Ford Prefect
02-17-2007, 12:16 AM
Oh, and you can find a similar opinion in Zatsiorsky's Science and Practice of Strength training.

I supposed you will now insist that Soviet, communist conditioning research was tainted by the commercial economic situation of the strength training community in the United States... Either that or you could realize that people doing high level research from very different parts of the world and very different cultures came to the same conclusions about isometric training in comparison with dynamic resistance training.

As I've said from my experience and research reading (and as men like Verkoshansky and Zatsiorsky have said from scientific research), isometrics can indeed be a great SUPPLEMENT to a strength training plan. That said, using them by themself as your sole or primary training is an uneconimcal use of training time since other methods will provide superior results, and you aren't missing out on very much if you don't have time to implement a supplemental isometric training plan.

Andy62
02-17-2007, 01:06 AM
Ford, you have bought the whole" party line "of the equipment manufacturers. Be strong-think for you self!

Ford Prefect
02-17-2007, 06:53 AM
Nice troll.

Andy62
02-17-2007, 09:25 AM
Have fun! Denial is great.

Vash
02-19-2007, 06:17 AM
Ford, you have bought the whole" party line "of the equipment manufacturers. Be strong-think for you self!

. . . which party did I miss, and which line did they make famous?

Andy62
02-19-2007, 10:51 AM
"That weights are the only way to develop size and strength." Weights are very effective,but they are best when combined with other methods.

Chief Fox
02-19-2007, 03:12 PM
"That weights are the only way to develop size and strength." Weights are very effective,but they are best when combined with other methods.
Well, that really depends on what your goals are don't you think?

Size and strength might be good for a football player.

As a martial artist, I would say that strength is very important but not so much, size.

But maybe even more important than strength would be conditioning and flexibility.

Training with weights could offer up both of these benefits but I don't see how Isometrics could.

Andy62
02-19-2007, 03:54 PM
Different forms or exercise are advantageous for different activities. I believe that there is no form of exercise that is so effective and so flexible as to adapt itself successfully to so many situations as isometrics. They have been around for thousands of years and used successfully by people not only in sports,but in many real life situations. They build real true life strength. Let me give you and example'

In his book "Papillon" Henri Charrie're explains how he used isometrics first to survive and then to escape the notorious Devil's Island Prison located off of the coast of French Guiana. Charrie're was the only person in the history of that prison to escape. He did not have access to weights in the prison and isometrics were a big part of his conditioning program to escape. Not only did they strengthen his body,but also his mind as they allowed him to survive over 2 years in solitary confinement where he did not hear another human voice.

Charrie're' experience is much the same of Alexander Zass "the father of modern isometrics" who strengthened himself in prison by using isometrics and later became a professional strongman and published the first mail order course on isometrics:
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Zass/zassintro.htm


It has been almost 50 years since I competed in college wrestling, but nobody is going to convince me that isometrics would not be an asset to the conditioning for anyone for any combat sport. The increase in mental strength alone would be a benefit, particularly the "aerobic Isometrics" developed by Steve Justa in his book" Rock Iron Steel."

Ford Prefect
02-19-2007, 05:45 PM
"That weights are the only way to develop size and strength." Weights are very effective,but they are best when combined with other methods.

Of course I never said this. Dynamic resistance training is a more efficeint way to train for a myriad of attributes beneficial to martial artists and all athletes in general... now that is what I said. All evidence beyond mail order courses and anecdotal stories backs this up. Sorry.

Andy62
02-19-2007, 06:04 PM
Ford, There is all kinds of evidence and history based on training for various activites through the centuries that isometrics is a valuable tool. "The Isometric Power Revolution" has a history section of 55 pages with evidence and information that you probably have never seen. So much of the information that has been circulated on isometrics in recent decades reminds me of the lyrics of the song"stuck in the 60s."

Samurai Jack
02-20-2007, 02:30 AM
I have a set of Zass' chains that I made myself. I have used them in the past to work several different ranges of motion for Isometric deadlift work. I did get stronger. It was impossible to tell if the results were superior or inferior to traditional deadlifts. It was interesting as an experiment though.

Ford Prefect
02-20-2007, 08:36 AM
Ford, There is all kinds of evidence and history based on training for various activites through the centuries that isometrics is a valuable tool. "The Isometric Power Revolution" has a history section of 55 pages with evidence and information that you probably have never seen. So much of the information that has been circulated on isometrics in recent decades reminds me of the lyrics of the song"stuck in the 60s."

Andy,

Emperical evidence means little. If you want to call something "evidence", then please post the scientific study it came from where all variables were controlled or monitored. As mentioned earlier, all scientific evidence from the USA and from the Soviet Union point to being incorrect. Sorry.


Samurai,

Isometrics can indeed cause strength gains, but as I said, empirical evidence means little. They are just inferior to dynamic resistance training for a number of reasons. Not the least of which include:

1) Resistance: It is impossible to accurately gauge increases in force output since this is a highly subjective variable in one's mind with isometrics. With resistance training this is easily verifiable with how much weight is put on the bar or how many reps can be done with bodyweight. Because of this, it becomes far harder to execute a training plan and to monitor the progress of one.

2) Coordination: Isometrics are merely isolated contractions against an unmoving object. Dynamic resistance training moves through a range of motion. Dynamic resistance training not only builds muscular strength but also intermuscular coordination while moving the body through space. As we know with the principle of SAID (specific adapation to imposed demands), carry over from dynamic movement in the gym to similar dynamic movement in athletic competition is hard enough to attain. Nevermind trying to confound the issue by expecting carry over from a static contraction to a dynamic contraction...

3) Range of Motion: Isometric exercise has shown to only increase strength in the joint angle where the contraction takes place and 15 degrees AT MOST in either direction. This makes it even less beneficial for dynamic motion in athletics. You need to do multiple contractions at multiple joint angles to cover all your bases, as opposed to just doing a single dynamic movement...

Etc etc

Isometrics can be a great supplement to strength training programs, and I even use various methods in my own program. On their own, they are far from the optimal method of strength training in general, and this is even moreso in regards to athletics.

Chief Fox
02-20-2007, 09:16 AM
It has been almost 50 years since I competed in college wrestling, but nobody is going to convince me that isometrics would not be an asset to the conditioning for anyone for any combat sport. The increase in mental strength alone would be a benefit, particularly the "aerobic Isometrics" developed by Steve Justa in his book" Rock Iron Steel."
So if "nobody" is going to convince you then this really ceases to be a discussion and is really just you preaching about a belief.

I believe in squats.

SevenStar
02-20-2007, 09:51 AM
Different forms or exercise are advantageous for different activities. I believe that there is no form of exercise that is so effective and so flexible as to adapt itself successfully to so many situations as isometrics. They have been around for thousands of years and used successfully by people not only in sports,but in many real life situations. They build real true life strength. Let me give you and example'


YOU ARE DOING EXERCISES IN ONE POSITION, NOT A RANGE OF MOTION. How is that more "true life", or "functional" strength than training through a range of motion? It's not. It's also inefficient.


It has been almost 50 years since I competed in college wrestling, but nobody is going to convince me that isometrics would not be an asset to the conditioning for anyone for any combat sport. The increase in mental strength alone would be a benefit, particularly the "aerobic Isometrics" developed by Steve Justa in his book" Rock Iron Steel."

Nobody said it wouldn't be an asset, but it's not as valuable as you seem to want it to be. How are you measuring the increase in mental strength? how is that increase any greater than the man benching heavy weights or sparring several times per week?

Andy62
02-20-2007, 09:51 AM
I am not the one preaching or at least not the only one. I consider Pavel's article proof and there are countless examples in the book, "you can lead a horse to water."


ISOMETRICS: IRON FOSSIL OR SECRET WEAPON?
by Pavel


Scientists dabbled with isometrics, or muscle contractions against
stationary objects, as far back as the 1920s. Then in 1953 German
scientists Hettinger and Maller shook the muscle world with their
study that concluded that you can add 5% to your strength a week by
pushing or pulling against a stationary object once a day. Just once,
only for six seconds, and at mere two thirds of a max effort!

Weightlifters and martial artists quickly jumped on the bandwagon. The
former pushed and pulled empty bars against power rack pins; the
latter tried to tear their black belts apart and pushed through walls
with back fists.

Enter the Dragon.

But isos went out of fashion around the time of Bruce Lee's mysterious
death, for reasons that had nothing to do with the effectiveness of
this ingeniously simple method: the emergence of anabolic
steroids--and the seep of flakiness and trendiness into the fitness
world.

It is time to bring this secret weapon back.

Prof. Verkhoshansky (1977) lists the six advantages of isometrics,
slightly paraphrased below.

1. Accessibility of isometrics to everyone.

Although certain sport-specific applications of isometrics require
specialized equipment such as power racks, generally you can manage
with such mundane items as a wall, rope, stick, doorway, or chair.

2. The ability to train any muscle at very precise angles.

A great benefit when you are trying to overcome a sticking point in a
lift.

3. Great efficiency.

In the words of Prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky himself, "...a ten minute
session of isometric tensions in specially selected exercises will
replace a tiring one hour of weight training."

4. Insignificant muscle and bodyweight gains when compared to dynamic
exercises.

This may or may not be an advantage from your
point of view. The extent of muscle hypertrophy depends on the
training protocol. Recent studies have registered respectable muscle
growth from isometrics. For instance, Garfinkel & Cafarelli (1992)
found a 14.6% increase in the cross-section of the knee extensors
following eight weeks of isometric training. Increasing the duration
of the contractions to a minute and longer, as explained below, is
likely to yield even greater muscle gains--if you need them.

5. The ability to maintain high levels of speed-strength during
important competitions due to the fact that isometrics expend a lot
less time and energy than lifting weights.

6. Great for improving and fixing athletic technique.

Quoting Prof. Verkhoshansky, isometrics offer "A better opportunity to
memorize the proper positions visually and kinesthetically than the
dynamic mode. This makes the isometric method especially valuable for
teaching and mistake correction."

I shall extrapolate on this subtle but extremely important point. Let
us use the military press as an example. In order to put up the
heaviest weight safely you need to ‘wedge’ yourself between the
barbell and the ground, every muscle tight. It is not an easy skill to
learn with a live weight but a piece of cake with isometrics. Stand
inside a doorway, on a stool if necessary, put your hands up against
the molding, and press. You will naturally tense up your legs and
waist. Remember that feeling when you press a barbell.

The 'wedge' is just as effective for quick moves. I use it to improve
my military and law enforcement clients' striking technique and power.
On my Martial Power: Hard Hitting Combat Secrets from the Russian
Special Ops videos you can see an obvious improvement in a
professional kickboxer's kicks and cage fighter's punches after just
two days.

What are the disadvantages of isometrics?

Suren Bogdasarov (1991), the coach of Russian weightlifting legend
Yuri Vlasov, lists three drawbacks of isometrics. First, they are
counter-indicated for people with high blood pressure and heart
problems. Second, your muscles could lose their elasticity. The
solution is simple: massage your muscles and shake them to relax
between sets. Third, it is easy to lose your sense of exertion.
Bogdasarov recommends varying the intensity of isometric contractions
to address this problem, for instance an easy set followed by an
all-out set.

Prof. Alexey Medvedev (1986) urges caution in applying isometric
exercises to children and teenagers. He also warns that strength
development plateaus after six to eight weeks of isometric training.
This is not a problem as you are not supposed to train isometrically
full time anyway. Go iso for a month or two, then go back to your
regular strength training. Summer is the ideal time for an isometric
only routine.

How often?

Scientists disagree on a lot of things but not on the frequency of
isometric training: daily training is ideal (Atha, 1981). It does not
mean that you cannot train less frequently; you just will not gain as
much. According to Hettinger (1961}, training every other day delivers
only 80% of the strength gains of daily training and training once a
week yields only 40%.

SevenStar
02-20-2007, 09:53 AM
didn't ford refute that one the last time you posted it?

SevenStar
02-20-2007, 09:55 AM
..........

Furey is the ultimate promoter for people who buy into the whole "there are fitness secrets which only a select few can reveal to me" angle. If you are smarter than that, then Furey's advertising is over-the-top and laughable.

It's easy to take somebody's quotes out of context and make it appear they are arguing for something they are not. For instance, Pavel not only paraphrased Verkoshansky's list so that it suited his case, but he also flat-out misquoted him. Nevermind the fact that those qotes are from Verkoshansky outlining what isometrics proponents believe are the advantages.

This does appear in Supertraining (which you'd know if you read it), and is followed by a list of drawbacks. Supertraining in and of itself is a theoretical text that puts forth a lot of informaton to give a well-rounded picture of strength and conditioning training and the science behind it. It doesn't have recommended training; only various methods to achieve certain goals with the supporting and rebutting science. The onus is on the reader to determine optimal training plans and implementation. If you look at Yuri's actual training texts like Fundementals of Strength Training and High-level Track & Field training, you'd see where he actually places isometrics in his training guidelines.

Andy62
02-20-2007, 09:58 AM
Yes he did,but I don't accept his exlalantion. It is Ford against Pavel and John Peterson-I am going with the latter group.

Ford Prefect
02-20-2007, 11:56 AM
Actually, it's Pavel and John Peterson against Mel Siff, Yuri Verkoshansky, Michael Yessis, and Vladamir Zatsiorsky.

I'd go with the latter group. Seeing as how Pavel did ZERO research himself and derives his methods largely from Verkoshansky and Zatsiorsky, I'd go with the men doing the research as opposed to one who didn't.

If one is so inclined, this list found in it's original form as written by Verkoshansky (and not paraphrased by Pavel) can be found on page 224 of Supertraining. On page 225 drawbacks such as fatigue in the nervous system, harmful effect on cardiovascular system, disturb coordination, enhance muscle performance only close to specific joint angle, decrease speed of movement, and diminish soft tissue elasticity are listed. On page 227, a training breakdown common to "Russian coaches" is 75% concentrics, 15% eccentrics, and 10% isometrics.

In the 10%, isometrics is not isolated to contracting against an unmoving object. It also includes weight supporting. Weight supporting is a good way to break through sticking points and plateaus, as I have mentioned plenty of time previously. What Russian coaches will typically do is have a trainee support 120-150% 1RM in the first few degrees of movement. They will also have them support weight at the mechanically weakest spot in a movement in order to strengthen muscles in that particular angle of joint flexion.


Just to reiterate, Verkoshansky is saying that 90% of the work done to train athletes in NOT isometric. The isometric work that is done also includes weight supporting. This is not the person you should be using to bolster an argument for more use of isometrics...

SevenStar
02-20-2007, 12:44 PM
oh, snap... Someone's gotta say it, so I guess I will.






0wn3d!!!

Andy62
02-20-2007, 01:02 PM
Ford, I would not disagree with your statement,but just the interpretation of it. Weighted averages are an interesting analysis technique. I worked with them extensively during my career in the investment analysis field. They can be deceptive though. Sometimes the more efficient variable is given the lowest percentage rank as it obtains results more quickly. It appears to me that may be what is at work here.

In the words of Prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky himself, "...a ten minute
session of isometric tensions in specially selected exercises will
replace a tiring one hour of weight training."

If 10 minutes of isometrics = 1 hour of weight training to me the conclusion is obvious.

Ford Prefect
02-20-2007, 01:18 PM
Ford, I would not disagree with your statement,but just the interpretation of it. Weighted averages are an interesting analysis technique. I worked with them extensively during my career in the investment analysis field. They can be deceptive though. Sometimes the more efficient variable is given the lowest percentage rank as it obtains results more quickly. It appears to me that may be what is at work here.

In the words of Prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky himself, "...a ten minute
session of isometric tensions in specially selected exercises will
replace a tiring one hour of weight training."

If 10 minutes of isometrics = 1 hour of weight training to me the conclusion is obvious.

Actually that is one of the misquotes of which I spoke. The actual quote is "The training is very productive, if the time expended is considered. Each 6-second isometric contraction in its effect to many dynamic contractions (the ballistic type) in which maximal force lasts no more than 0.1 seconds. From a practical standpoint this means that 10 minutes of isometric tension in specifically selected exercises can replace a fatiguing hour of training with weights"

It is paraphrased and misquoted by Pavel to lead one to the conclusion which you reached. In the context of the list and of the surrounding text, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that it is referring to isometric contractions at a very specific joint angle. Ie if you need to work on strength in a specific joint angle, then depending on goals, isometrics can replace a longer session with weights.

In other words, if you need to concentrate on strength in a static ROM, then moving dynamically and explosively in a much larger ROM won't spend as much time in that static ROM. Wow! Stop the presses! Who would have thought?! Taken out of context, you can praphrase anything to say most anything.

Sorry. You have been exposed.

Andy62
02-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Well ofcourse. That brings us back to the 'synapse' effect.


"Isometrics are superior to regular weightlifting because of the 'synapse' effect . When you are performing a standard bench press, for instance, it will take you one or two seconds to move through the entire range of motion yet there is only one point in the range of motion where you are applying maximum strength and the duration of the effort at that point may last only a fraction of a second. Our bodies use only the minimum number of muscle fibers required to perform a movement so the maximum number of fibers are only used at that point of maximum intensity which lasts only a fraction of a second. Conversely with an isometric exercise you are applying maximum tension for the full duration of the contraction whether it be 10 seconds, 12 seconds or longer and as a result you are contracting maximum muscle fibers for the entire length of time that you are performing the exercise."



Checkmate!

Ford Prefect
02-20-2007, 01:59 PM
Well ofcourse. That brings us back to the 'synapse' effect.


"Isometrics are superior to regular weightlifting because of the 'synapse' effect . When you are performing a standard bench press, for instance, it will take you one or two seconds to move through the entire range of motion yet there is only one point in the range of motion where you are applying maximum strength and the duration of the effort at that point may last only a fraction of a second. Our bodies use only the minimum number of muscle fibers required to perform a movement so the maximum number of fibers are only used at that point of maximum intensity which lasts only a fraction of a second. Conversely with an isometric exercise you are applying maximum tension for the full duration of the contraction whether it be 10 seconds, 12 seconds or longer and as a result you are contracting maximum muscle fibers for the entire length of time that you are performing the exercise."



Checkmate!

Of course you back yourself in a corner. This brings us back to the fact that isometrics only cause strength gains in very precise joint angles. (ie the angle of flexion plus 15 degrees MAXIMUM) When performing a movement in a large ROM you are limitted by a muscles contractile capacity at its mechanically weakest point. I'll take the bench press example. The mechanically weakest point is obviously the bottom of the bench press. When this point is reached and muscle fibers contract to push the bar upwards, that is the maximum muscle contraction for that muscle. Muscle fibers do not shut off as the bar moves upward. What happens is through principles of leverage, less force needs to be generated towards the top of the movement than at the bottom. The maximal weight you can push directly off your chest is less than the maximal weight you can push 2" off your chest and so on. So the muscle fibers do not shut off as the bar moves upward, but it decreases it's %1RM as the bar moves upwards. Saavy?

However, you are still contracting muscles through the upper ranges of this ROM and you are still getting stronger in the upper ranges of this ROM. For instance, we can look at men who squat 1,000 lbs. If they weren't becoming stronger in the upper ranges of the ROM, then that would mean that they could unrack and support 1,000 lbs as somebody who never touched a weight a day in their life. We know this to be incorrect.

You can't say the same for isometrics. Since they are static, they don't work through a ROM. They only work at a specific joint angle with effects falling off the further you get from that specific joint angle and finally completely falling off at 15 degrees from that joint angle. If you work in motion and need coordinated muscle contractions for movement, then isometrics is far from the optimal choice. In the words of the esteemed Yuri Verkoshansky:

"Research produced the general conclusion that isometric training can be more effective than dynamic exercises in those cases where the specific exercise requires muscle contraction of large magnitude at a certain stage of a movement or during early stages of injury rehabilitation."

He even qualifies this to say it doesn't apply to speed strength with the very next sentence, "If the specific exercise involves high-speed movement, then sustained isometric contraction is less effective."

(Pg 223 Supertraining)

Again. You have been exposed. Try reading the books you attempt to use as evidence. It helps.

Andy62
02-20-2007, 02:16 PM
In item 5 Veroshansky
says regarding speed:
"The ability to maintain high levels of speed-strength during
important competitions due to the fact that isometrics expend a lot
less time and energy than lifting weights."

Instead of going back and second guessing people who have done research and trying to bend it to your belief system it would be of more value to you if you would review some to the 5000 years of human history with isometrics. You seem very light in that area.

Ford Prefect
02-20-2007, 02:35 PM
In item 5 Veroshansky
says regarding speed:
"The ability to maintain high levels of speed-strength during
important competitions due to the fact that isometrics expend a lot
less time and energy than lifting weights."

Instead of going back and second guessing people who have done research and trying to bend it to your belief system it would be of more value to you if you would review some to the 5000 years of human history with isometrics. You seem very light in that area.

I actually left that open, so you could step in that pile yourself. #5 is in reference to possibly switching to isometrics during a period of "crucial competitions" in order to attempt maintain strength levels gleaned using other methods. Since isometrics are less taxing, they won't hamper performance during this "crucial period" and they will still help to maintain over short periods of time the attributes the athlete gained by long and hard training sessions. ie they are better than not training at all.

Stop the presses again! Wow!

Again, try to read the books you attempt to use to validate your beliefs. You won't look like such a clown even if you are trolling. At least people may take you seriously.

Andy62
02-20-2007, 03:12 PM
That is exactly how I interpreted it.

Andy62
02-20-2007, 03:14 PM
Ford get that grease paint off of your face!