self defense vs fighting, different or same?

[Shaolinlueb]

as you can see there is much arguement lately on here.

mma guys "we fight so we are better"

cma guys "we train self defense"

so what is the diffrerence if any do you see? or do you think it is the same?

obviously i think there is a difference. fighting is going at it expecting certain stuff to happen.

self defense is out of the blue, unexpected and you are forced to react hopefully taking the opponent down in 3 moves or less.

i dont want this to be mma vs cma its fighting vs self defense.

[SixStringFist]

MMA or CMA is about more than fighting/self-defense arguments.

I've said a couple of times that I train CMA for a variety of reasons. While self-defense is on the list, it certainly isn't the only item, and I'd like to believe that most of the people who train CMA are in that same boat. Flexibility, health, discipline, fun, and tradition are other items on my list. Think about it and I'm sure you can come up with dozens of other reasons for yourself.

Similarly, I believe that MMA people train for self-defense, flexibility, health, discipline, competitive spirit, etc. It simply isn't a split down the middle of training for a fight and training for self-defense.

With that said, there certainly is a difference between fighting professionally and defending oneself from harm, although I don't think you quite hit the nail on the head with your definitions. When training to fight professionally, there is a lot of emphasis on conditioning because let's face it: if you run out of gas before the other guy, you lose. Also, the other guy is a trained fighter, so odds are his conditioning allows him to fight the same 15 minutes you fight.

However, rare is the street fight that lasts for 5 minutes, let alone 15. If you're training to defend yourself from a blind-side attack or a bar altercation, then yeah, you want to end the fight as fast as possible in order to get away or call for help before you or someone else gets hurt, possibly killed. The possibility of death exists in a professional fight (I've heard arguments to the contrary, but the possibility is there), but its obviously neither expected nor encouraged. The possibility is much greater in a street fight, where your opponent, or several of his friends, may be armed.

MMA guys train to use their abilities as frequently as possible in a professional setting, and have it be more effective than the other guy's training. It's my hope that I never use my Kung Fu. Ever. Not because its "teh de4dly", but because I hope that the training I receive allows me to recognize a bad situation before it happens and remove myself from the scenario.

[bodhitree]

Self defense involves much more than fighting. Being able to fight doesn't stop 4 or 5 people from beating you down, no matter what Jet Li can do in the movies. Violence in real life rarely happens in a fair manner, no matter if you're trained in TMA or MMA if you're hit in the head with a bat from behind you're going down.

Self defense= smart choices, awareness, limiting risky behavior, etc etc etc.

[Charles T Rose]

Self defense is not mutually agreed combat AKA a duel.MMA matches and ego driven bar fights are duels. Self defense is when you are being attacked and your response could be as simple a pushing your attacker down and running away.

[djcaldwell]

There is a difference between pro and street fights by all means. However, it depends on what perspective you are looking at this from. If a training and skill perspective than regardless if it’s CMA or MMA the person has the skills necessary to win a fight against a lesser skilled opponent. At that point it changes from skill to mental ability and/or intent. Many people train CMA or any TMA and lack the necessary intent when placed in a physical situation.

Regardless, if you are defending yourself or dueling (as it was referred to) there has to be intent to damage the other person be it to win the match or to buy yourself enough time to escape if necessary.

Also I do not agree that there is a true “fear of death” in a professional match. The statement that there is a possibility of death does not elicit the necessary “fear” that comes from an unsolicited confrontation on the street. There is a possibility of death crossing the street but no one “fears” it. When you are engaged in a street fight there is more than the possibility that you can be killed and this regardless of how small the fight is, remains in the back of your mind. In the ring, the thought of I may die here never enters your mind in the way that it would cause one to “fear for his life”. There is a tremendous difference.

With that, I feel that fighting is fighting regardless. The differences lay in the mental training and mental ability of the person being trained. Some people just don’t have it and are what I will refer to as “born victims” regardless of the situation they can not muster the mental ability to fight back regardless of the training they have. It’s just not in them. Others can train or be trained to work past the fear and develop that intent.

As was stated previously, self defense is more than just the fighting – it’s mental awareness, minding your surroundings and learning to avoid situations that place you in a danger. Fighting is fighting and often, fighters end up in situations where they can hit things because they are not looking to avoid but SMASH!!

Fighting is fighting, if you are exchanging blows, protecting yourself or dueling – it’s still fighting. The training and methods are what make it self-defense versus “sport”.

[bodhitree]

by definition fighting is not self defense-

Self defense may involve fighting back just to remove yourself from the situation, but fighting is not self defense.

[djcaldwell]

by definition fighting is not self defense-

Self defense may involve fighting back just to remove yourself from the situation, but fighting is not self defense.

Semantics.

Legal definitition versus the actual physical requirements involved with an exchange be it defending yourself in the street or in the ring - consentual or not -fighting is still fighting.

I do agree that there is more to "self-defense" as I stated but when it comes to the physical nature of the beast to say that self-defense may require fighting in return demonstrates that "fighting is fighting".

[bodhitree]

Self defence is awareness, choices, the way you carry yourself, having escape routes, and many other things. Fighting is a VERY small part of self defence (unless you're in prison)

[lkfmdc]

Let's for a moment assume that most people are not being chased by outlaw motorcycle gangs or Chinese organized crime hitmen ;)

Most "fights" involve pushing, shoving, big punches, rushing in, tackles, head locks and grabs

Who is more prepared for the wrestling aspect? Those who wrestle "alive" or those who practice pre-arranged techniques?

Who is more prepared for the big punches> Those who do boxing style drills, parrying and shielding against punches thrown real speed with power, or those who pracitce against pre-arrangd posed punches?

A lot of "self defense" has to do with how your body is going to react under the stress of the situation. 10 guys can learn the same technique, maybe 1 will pull it off on the street.

But here's the "catch", scientifically speaking, the body doesn't know the difference between stress induced in a classroom, the ring or the street. Intellectually you may know in a sanctioned match no one is going to "kill you" but your body doesnt' know that.

The more you compete, the more you deal with stress. The more you deal with stress, the more your body will know how to function under those circumstances. The more your body knows how to function under those circumstances, the greater the chance you'll be able to use your technique

Clearly, there are people who have never been in a ring who can fight, but they clearly are also "cool customers" under stress

[kidswarrior]

MMA or CMA is about more than fighting/self-defense arguments.

I've said a couple of times that I train CMA for a variety of reasons. While self-defense is on the list, it certainly isn't the only item, and I'd like to believe that most of the people who train CMA are in that same boat. Flexibility, health, discipline, fun, and tradition are other items on my list. Think about it and I'm sure you can come up with dozens of other reasons for yourself.

Similarly, I believe that MMA people train for self-defense, flexibility, health, discipline, competitive spirit, etc. It simply isn't a split down the middle of training for a fight and training for self-defense.

It's my hope that I never use my Kung Fu. Ever. Not because its "teh de4dly", but because I hope that the training I receive allows me to recognize a bad situation before it happens and remove myself from the scenario.

Well said, and representative of my view.

[Shadow Skill]

Fighting is fighting, if you are exchanging blows, protecting yourself or dueling – it’s still fighting. The training and methods are what make it self-defense versus “sport”.

you hit the nail on the head

[kidswarrior]

Self defense= smart choices, awareness, limiting risky behavior, etc etc etc.
I agree. And when I've done all that, 99% of the time it keeps me safe. But there's always that 1% chance that keeping my nose clean still won't keep some idiot from attacking me. So, self defense also=good training. You probably intended your message to imply that, but just wanted to make it explicit. :)

[bodhitree]

I'm not saying don't train to fight, I train to fight, which could be bad for self defense (ex: ego making me fight rather than walk/run away)

[Merryprankster]

I agree with bodhitree.

Fighting is fighting. Period. Whether it's "MMA" or "CMA" or two guys with no training trading blows. Whether somebody is thinking about kicking another guy in the nuts or not.

Self-defense INCLUDES fighting, but is not limited to it. Self defense includes things like awareness of your surroundings, studying human "give aways," like posture, facial expressions, etc, understanding what is safe and what is not, de-escalation techniques, and a fair bit of psychology I would guess.

You could be great at self-defense and a lousy fighter. You could be a world-class fighter and lousy at self-defense.

To me, the MMA/CMA argument is a pointless one. It doesn't actually mean anything. The real issue is training. If you are training hard, and suit up and beat on each other on a regular frequent basis, you're probably going to be effective.

[Shaolinlueb]

fighting is fightind whether it be mma or cma. more to mma and cma then fighting, yes.

but those werent the questions. its whats the difference between those two. there are a lot of good answers in here. :)

[SifuAbel]

To me, the MMA/CMA argument is a pointless one. It doesn't actually mean anything. The real issue is training. If you are training hard, and suit up and beat on each other on a regular frequent basis, you're probably going to be effective.

new sig.............

[Oso]

I agree with bodhitree.

Fighting is fighting. Period. Whether it's "MMA" or "CMA" or two guys with no training trading blows. Whether somebody is thinking about kicking another guy in the nuts or not.

Self-defense INCLUDES fighting, but is not limited to it. Self defense includes things like awareness of your surroundings, studying human "give aways," like posture, facial expressions, etc, understanding what is safe and what is not, de-escalation techniques, and a fair bit of psychology I would guess.

You could be great at self-defense and a lousy fighter. You could be a world-class fighter and lousy at self-defense.

To me, the MMA/CMA argument is a pointless one. It doesn't actually mean anything. The real issue is training. If you are training hard, and suit up and beat on each other on a regular frequent basis, you're probably going to be effective.

one of the best posts ever.

why does this guy keep saying **** that makes sense????? :p ;)

[lunghushan]

Of course don't you think that self defense is JUST like fighting, especially in the ring?

In any self defense situation, there's a referee there to make sure everybody is ready to start.

In any self defense situation, there are rules. You can't have multiple attackers, you can't hit to the eyes, groin, back of the head, spine, use knives or any of that.

In any self defense situation they wear gloves.

In any self defense situation there's a mat -- it's never on pavement or any really hard surface.

[lunghushan]

one of the best posts ever.

why does this guy keep saying **** that makes sense????? :p ;)

He doesn't really say anything except moronic nonsense, so of course most people agree with him.

[Subitai]

I'd like to add something else.

I've been jumped by three guys, I used hit and run tactics. I kept my back to some freshly cut bushes.

I made some surprise moves when they came for me. I knocked one of them out and locked another one while one was jammed up.

I had some scars and a deviated septum in the nose to remind me always. But I made it out on my own two feet.

....Something I could have never done if I were confined in a ring.

That's reality, that's the difference of SELF DEFENSE.

"O"

[rogue]

He doesn't really say anything except moronic nonsense, so of course most people agree with him.

Yes, that's our MP, always mirroring the opinions of those around him just so they will accept him.:D

[rogue]

I'd like to add something else.

I've been jumped by three guys, I used hit and run tactics. I kept my back to some freshly cut bushes.

I made some surprise moves when they came for me. I knocked one of them out and locked another one while one was jammed up.

I had some scars and a deviated septum in the nose to remind me always. But I made it out on my own two feet.

....Something I could have never done if I were confined in a ring.

That's reality, that's the difference of SELF DEFENSE.

"O"

Malarky. Altercations can happen anywhere, in the wide open spaces or even in an environment tighter and more confined than a ring. The size of the venue is not a determinant if something is non-sprot or self defense.

[SPJ]

fighting would include everything about fighting.

self defense would be focusing on defensive and counters and may also include counter strikes, qin na, throw etc.

--

:p

[Merryprankster]

No, I don't think that fighting during a self-defense situation will be just like a ring fight.

But I don't think that the training hall is just like a street fight either.

There are certainly rules in a ring fight. But there are also rules in a kwoon, or dojo or training hall that claims to teach "self-defense for the street."

Rules are what allow people to practice their fighting techniques on each other without a high rate of injury. The rules may include things like banning certain techniques, entire categories of techniques, pulling the force or completion of certain techniques, using mats, using dulled or simulated weapons, using mats, using certain protective equipment etc.

They are reasonable safety parameters instituted to keep the participants safe from overt, unexpected and debilitating injury, and overuse injuries, so that the participants can KEEP training, regularly and frequently, and become proficient in their art. Even as it is, anybody who trains hard experiences occasional injury. Nature of the beast.

The arguments over training, therefore, tend to not really be about "street vs sport," but about what rule sets to implement during training for maximum street effectiveness.

Show me a training venue without rules and I'll show you either a liar, a brainwashed zombie who has swallowed the koolaid and is therefore incapable of forming the intent to lie, or a place with a short life expectancy, and/or a high proportion of one-eyed, one testicled, multiple-corrective surgery members.

Subitai - your post actually demonstrated my initial point. Certainly fighting WAS involved in your self-defense situation, but what also saved you was some quick thinking, some tactical awareness, and capitalizing on the opportunity local geography gave you. It wasn't just about your fighting. Congratulations on surviving - in fact overcoming - in a difficult situation.

[Knifefighter]

Here are a couple of interesting takes on mulitple opponent attacks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZzZoJBGy8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7z5hpgbbR8&mode=related&search=

[Black Jack II]

I have seen the second guys stuff before. I like his drills and what he is trying to impart with them. The only thing that I never see him have his students do at all in his knife vids or his multiple attacker vids is any pre-emptive striking.

They just wait to get attacked but besides that it would be great to see more mcdojos do stuff on that level. But again, if they did, people would leave.:D

[Knifefighter]

The only thing that I never see him have his students do at all in his knife vids or his multiple attacker vids is any pre-emptive striking.
:05- guy in blue throws hard PES to smaller guy and knocks him down.
:39- PES first attack.

[Subitai]

Malarky. Altercations can happen anywhere, in the wide open spaces or even in an environment tighter and more confined than a ring. The size of the venue is not a determinant if something is non-sprot or self defense.


Well, Malarky back at cha... Confinement "IS" a big deal

You fight 3 guys going after you who are not just trying to score points! 3 to 1 is not fair to begin with, hence a separate factor like space is an equilizer.

Hey, i'll tell what else malarky in sport. It's that I have to chase down another human being in an OCTAGON and then attempt to make him TAP. That in itself is NOT SELF DEFENSE! I know i've been there.

Also, i've never been deathly afraid for my life like I have in the street...

WHY?.... because of the UNKNOWN. Anyone saying otherwise is totally FULL OF SH!T.

In the Octagon, at least I knew what was about to happen and had time to prepare myself.

Reality is the unknown....not studying tapes of your opponant to figure out his weakness.

"O"

[Knifefighter]

Also, i've never been deathly afraid for my life like I have in the street...
WHY?.... because of the UNKNOWN. Anyone saying otherwise is totally FULL OF SH!T.

You are right about one thing... self-defense and ring fighting are two different things.

However, self-defense and the way most people practice martial arts are even more different.

I've been in both street and sport situations many times, and I have always been much more nervous in a MMA setting.

I think experience in MMA fighting events gives one a huge advantage in realistic situations over the person who has never done that type of thing. Combine that with some tricky street tactics and it's even better.

[Subitai]

I've been in both street and sport situations many times, and I have always been much more nervous in a MMA setting.


Really? You must be a freak Knife?

Here's some examples for you:

Number # 1
You know 6 months in advance...whom you may be fighting in a MMA event.

It's run by professionals. There is a referee with trainers and coaches also present. For safety, there is even some medics standing by?

or....

Number # 2

You are in Tijuana Mexico (or any other place in the world you might get jumped)

It's late, everyone's drinking of course. There are some local cops but they are only in the main Turist district. Some bars have bathrooms inside, some are more outside...nothing more than some concrete walls and a trough to pi ss in.

So you start goin' and three dudes walk in and hang by the door. You're about to get jumped and you know it before you done pi ssin'.

Keep in mind, you have NO IDEA how bad it's gonna get. Plus you're not even in your own country.

**************************

You're trying to tell me that Number 1 is more bothersome to you? If so, you're a freak.


Hahaha!!!

But I don't think you and I are talking about the same kind of fear or anxiety. And I know you know there is a difference.

Pre-fight jitters or belly butterflys are normal....the Unknown for your own personal safety is a whole other deal.

P.S. story number 2 is not made up.




I think experience in MMA fighting events gives one a huge advantage in realistic situations over the person who has never done that type of thing. Combine that with some tricky street tactics and it's even better.


I can totally agree with hard work and experience, can't complain about that. The more the better.

"O"

[Knifefighter]

Number # 2
So you start goin' and three dudes walk in and hang by the door. You're about to get jumped and you know it before you done pi ssin'.
Let's look at it from a self-defense perspective.

Three guys follow what they assume is an easy mark into the bathroom. The guy is taking a p!$$ and knows he's about to get jumped, so he flips open the two tactical folders that are always on him.

Who's in trouble and who should be nervous?

[Subitai]

OH an equilizer....2 of them??? Now you're talking!


But in the example, you don't have those blades. haha, good one!!!


Unfortunately, I guess not everyone can be a "Knifefighter".

Or chooses to be, it's a risk I guess.


haha,
"O"

[David Jamieson]

It is impossible to say things like "most" or "in general" when we are talking about defending yourself on the street.

and self defense on the street has almost zero similar attributes to what goes down in a ring.

the ring, you're prepared for what's coming, the street, you can get hit in a billion diferent ways.

you can only train in a way that puts emphasis on situational awareness moreso than a variety of techniques. be aware, keep your head up, get off your cell phone, don't be looking up at buildings like a ****us or wearing scads of glitterbling and ipods.

don't be a target. look at ways to minimize yourself as a target.

be aware, look around, keep your distance and stay out of known badness areas and so on. there's literally tons of stuff written on this.

once the thing starts to go down, you either succeed or fail period and it's probably a good thing to have some technique, but be aware that all that technique and training is negated by some fairly simple things like multiple attackers, sometimes more than 3 sometimes you get wilded on, sometimes you can get blind sided, suckered, shot, stabbed, you name it and all the conditioning and running and hitting a bag ain't gonna do diddly squat for you.

at least, when entering a ring, you are there to fight, not deliver pizza, if the latter, get the heck out of the ring.

situational awareness and escape is the highest form of self defense. staying and going toe to toe is a very stupid thing to do. get out as quick as you can and if you gotta hit someone in the face with a beer bottle before bolting, then don't be afraid to do that, they're getting up in your grill after all. lol

chest pounding is indecision in action. Just GO! Go now! Do It!

that's self defense. :)

[Merryprankster]

Subitai,

I can see where having something you know about in advance can be more nervewracking. You have time to mull it over, to doubt yourself, to what-if, over and over.

Depending on your personality, in a "street" situation, your mindset might be more of a "well, this is the way it is, let's go." Much less time to work yourself up.

[rogue]

Well, Malarky back at cha... Confinement "IS" a big deal

You fight 3 guys going after you who are not just trying to score points! 3 to 1 is not fair to begin with, hence a separate factor like space is an equilizer. "O"

Never said it wasn't. What I said was, "Altercations can happen anywhere, in the wide open spaces or even in an environment tighter and more confined than a ring. The size of the venue is not a determinant if something is non-sport or self defense." Bad situations happen when things aren't always stacked in your favor, get used to it. How can a restricted space work in your favor?


Number # 2
So you start goin' and three dudes walk in and hang by the door. You're about to get jumped and you know it before you done pi ssin'.

So you're going to be fighting with your dick out and spraying them with ****. How many have the mindset to do that?


You are in Tijuana Mexico (or any other place in the world you might get jumped)
Why the fcuk are you getting drunk in Tijuana in the first place? ;)

[Subitai]

Subitai,

I can see where having something you know about in advance can be more nervewracking. You have time to mull it over, to doubt yourself, to what-if, over and over.

Depending on your personality, in a "street" situation, your mindset might be more of a "well, this is the way it is, let's go." Much less time to work yourself up.


Well then I'll admit it, you're a better man than I. For i'd rather fear the unknown.

Facts,

Sports like MMA have proven to be safer than Boxing.

Yet what starts out as domestic violence, a street fight or even road rage can end up getting people killed. Those are real every day things.

Yep,

"O"

[SifuAbel]

Let's look at it from a self-defense perspective.

Three guys follow what they assume is an easy mark into the bathroom. The guy is taking a p!$$ and knows he's about to get jumped(thats a big if), so he flips open the two tactical folders that are always on him.

Who's in trouble and who should be nervous?


You, you've just been shot.

[Merryprankster]

For i'd rather fear the unknown.


Not better - different. The demons that some people can conjure up in their own minds are worse than some realities.

[SevenStar]

Subitai,

I can see where having something you know about in advance can be more nervewracking. You have time to mull it over, to doubt yourself, to what-if, over and over.

Depending on your personality, in a "street" situation, your mindset might be more of a "well, this is the way it is, let's go." Much less time to work yourself up.

bingo. anticipation is a mutha. when something happens, I react. I have never been nervous about any situation at the club, but am always nervous before a fight or shiai.

[Black Jack II]

Knife,

Good eye, missed that f@cker, but I have seen plenty of his vids on youtube, does not seem to be a lot of pre-emptive in general.


So you start goin' and three dudes walk in and hang by the door. You're about to get jumped and you know it before you done pi ssin'

That's where situational awareness comes into play. Did you look around before you went into the cr@pper? Were people casing you out even before that point?

TJ is a massive sh!thole, I can't stand that dump, whenever my lilly white a$$ went there to watch strippers sling around there dumptrucks, I was hyped up on the double awareness so the question should really extend further than just standing at the urinal.

[rogue]

Seven,
On average how far in advance can you spot the trouble makers?

[rogue]

I was hyped up on the double awareness so the question should really extend further than just standing at the urinal.

What I learned to do from playing in some clubs that we played or went to was to use the buddy system when hitting the can, and I still do it now.

[SevenStar]

Seven,
On average how far in advance can you spot the trouble makers?

my floor usually has around 350 people on it, so sometimes it can be hard to spot them beforehand. I look for typical things - people walking abnormally fast, people who look like they've had too much to drink, a cluster of people making a commotion, etc. some guys just look like trouble makers, so I try to keep a constant eye on them.