wing chun ballet and reviews

[bios69]

hello,
I've been following for a while this nice forum and I found it very intersting.
I am a wing chun passionate, in reality I studied a little bit of WT 8WingTsu Leung Ting) some years ago and I mostly read about and studied books so I cannot think to be a real praticoner and this for many reasons I won't explain now not to bother any of you.
Recently I began to watch around for dvds, tapes about wc and I had the opportunity to watch a couple of Randy Williams tape, about combat drills and some application (combat drills part 1 and 2). In the past I had heard (I mean read on us/uk magazine) pretty good things about the guy, Randy.
I know he had written lot of books and produced a series of dvd (2 of which I saw, as I told).
The videos were totally disappointing; in his drills the rithym is like you are making your homeworks and not appling a teqnique; in training you should try to get as close as you can to realyty as everybody of you knows, instead he counts by voice ritmically to 10 repeating his drill in a stupid manner. Stupid because the focus is about the drill in a way it is considere not a fight teqnique but merely an execise.
I noticed he uses the bong sau as a block, I guess he knows an extremely external version of wing chun (if I can call it so, and I don't think I can).
Of course I see, in sum, he could be an effective fighter and I know because is written somewhere on his site he has been bodiguarding Seagal and other famous person, but what I saw isn't good wing chun.
I also watched a video of Eddi Chong about basics and was awful.
The teqniques very bad explained and seemed he didn' have any clear idea about.
What impressed me positively is Wing Chun in- figfting by master wong shung leung (a classic, I guess) is very basic but well explaine.
I also watche the Boztepe series (tape 1 and 2) and in general I found them useful. Boztepe seems a good fighter, I don' t know if he is as good as he thinks to be but he impressed me.
Even if I know how "dangerous" it could be I have the impression that the WT system especially the german/european side of it, kept by Kernspecht, is nowday the most refined wing chun. It appears to me softer the others.
I also watched William Cheung fighting strategies tape, read his books and his wing chun in more phisical. Then he fight from a little bit bigger distance, sometime s as distance as medium range. Of course I admire him as a fighter, his photo making the bil je as a cover of his book (bil jee) on a yellow background surely impress more the Leung Ting photo in which you hope nobody understand he is the grand master.

This was my opinion and just take it as a personal review 'cause somebody asked opinion about wing chun videos.
Hope you understood my english (I'm from Italy).
sergio

[Myo-ho]

Hope you understood my english (I'm from Italy).


Hello Sergio, I'm from Italy too and I'm an instructor of Randy William's CRCA Wing Chun.
I know you from the italian martial arts forum, where you posted a similar message.
That topic was stopped by the moderator after only 2 posts..



in reality I studied a little bit of WT 8WingTsu Leung Ting) some years ago


Since, as you said, you are a beginner, it is not kind to judge Wing Chun masters. You simply are not able to do that.

However I'll try to explain CRCA point of view. I'll let the other masters you mentioned, to explain their.



I had the opportunity to watch a couple of Randy Williams tape, about combat drills and some application (combat drills part 1 and 2).


First of all, you must unserstand that every sifu has his personal interpretation of the art.
The training method of CRCA is very different from Leung Ting WT method. I can say that because I've been an instructor in the Leung Ting lineage too.
Also, the interpretation of some Wing Chun principles are different. So you can see the same "technique" done in different ways: for example, the boang sau and body turn (choh ma) in the two systems are very different.
You must understand that every sifu, ever lineage, respects the principle and the theory of the Wing Chun system, but with his own interpretation.
So, no system is better than another. It is only different in interpretation.



in training you should try to get as close as you can to realyty as everybody of you knows


This is not completely true. It depends on the kind of training you are doing.
If you are training your techniques, angle structure and flowing from one motion to another, you don't need to close the distance. Instead you need to have a cycle to train.
There are other drills to learn how to close the distance.



instead he counts by voice ritmically to 10 repeating his drill in a stupid manner. Stupid because the focus is about the drill in a way it is considere not a fight teqnique but merely an execise.


Thinking and judging "stupid" something you don't understand is quite arrogant. You may say that you don't like it, but since you don't have the key to understand that interpretation of the system, you don't have the instruments to estimate it.

You say that the drill is considered not a fight, but an exercise. That is true!
There are a lot of exercises that seems to be far away from real fight, and a lot of exercises that bring you close to a freefight session. It depends on what you are training.
If it is strange for you to hear that you might study something that seems far from the goal you are trying to reach, try to think at this example:
Imagine you are a NASA engineer. Your work could be to calculate the shuttle speed and route to get close to a satellite. But to achieve this skill, you need to know a lot of math, from equations to simple operations.
Well when you study equations, you are far from your goal of sending the shuttle in space, but it is propaedeutical to that goal.

In Wing Chun is the same. You study forms and drills propaedeutical to real fight.

The drills are designed to teach you:
- body structure
- angle structure
- self and applied timing
- flowing from one technique to another
- sensitiveness
- and more...

Some drills are designed to perfect one of the above skills, without thinking to the others, and other drills put together all the skills.

In a similar way the Siu Lim Tau doesn't have steps. This is not because in Wing Chun there is not footwork, but because you must learn and concentrate on hand techniques and their principles at first.

You say that you hear Randy counting to ten. That is true.
In fact he uses a "descending" count. This is useful to train some skills.
First of all, in the descending count, both of trainers use all the arms and so they train, in one drill, left and right side of the body.
Second, the count is performed at 108 beats/minute. This is useful for 2 reasons:
1) 108 beats/minute are fast but not too much fast. This is fast enough to give you the ability to make instinctive the techniques and the flowing from one technique to another, and at the same time is not so fast to perform the techniques incorrectly.
2) Performing a drill with a count, improves your timing, following a rhythm. This is very important, because if you are able to follow a rhythm, you can learn how to break that rhythm. Imagine a piano player. He spends year of training following the rhythm of the metronome, but when he becomes good, he can begin to play in the half counts. The same idea is in CRCA Wing Chun: you start learning how to follow a rhythm and then how to break it in a smart way and move in the half count.

Of course every drill can be performed without count and with a free timing. It depends on what kind of skill you are training.



I noticed he uses the bong sau as a block


I think you saw the yang version of boang sau, and I know that is different from the one you studied in the Leung Ting system. We have two versions of boang sau: the yin version (similar to your kind of boang sau) and the yang version, that follows different principles. It is long to explain now in detail the two versions, but if you are interested, I can give you a detailed explanation.



but what I saw isn't good wing chun.


Again you are quite arrogant. As a beginner you have no elements to judge a master of another lineage.
It is better to ask for details and at last state which interpretation you like the most.
If you prefer the Leung Ting method is ok, there is nothing wrong. I prefer CRCA method, and this is ok with me. No one is doing a mistake.

Every system is good when its laws are followed. Leung Ting’s method is good if you follow his principles, Randy’s method is good if you follow his principles.
Remember that every master has his own interpretation of the system that differs, even a bit, from his teacher and from his wing chun brothers.



Even if I know how "dangerous" it could be I have the impression that the WT system especially the german/european side of it, kept by Kernspecht, is nowday the most refined wing chun. It appears to me softer the others.


Softer doesn’t necessarily means better.



This was my opinion


I hope to have given you some keys to “read” the CRCA method, which is very different from the one you studied.

If you have any question, please feel free to ask me.

Moksha Vito Armenise
CRCA Italy

[Vincent81]

Hello all i’m Vincent from Italy (i’m sorry for any English mistake); i trained in various martial arts and fighting sports since when i was a child then when I was 18 i known Sifu Randy William's close range combat method and nowadays my studies still last.

At first i think often we lost our words trying to search what is the “True meaning of Wing Chun”, wich is the “classical school or training method” and other… I think is normal that a discipline evolve itself following our society and becoming different from an history to another. I think also experimentation is very important in every kind of discipline; let’s try to image how we saw tennis, F1 driving, and olimpic sports rules & techniques changing in few years… why can’t a martial art (that can be something very close to people’s lifestyle) evolve becoming something new? Is it so strange? The destination of any art is as important as the source; that’s my personal opinion for general discussions.



...in his drills the rithym is like you are making your homeworks and not appling a teqnique...

In effect, this may be just because we have to do some homeworks in order to improve our knowledge…



...in training you should try to get as close as you can to realyty as everybody of you knows

Personally, I think that way can be dangerous and/or useless, especially for beginners and people that need to learn more techniques in order to gain a success against a physically stronger enemy. We must also remember that a martial art let someone grow up inside, not only physically.
However, every discipline has a proper path and every teacher has the proper interpretation for that path.


...instead he counts by voice ritmically to 10 repeating his drill in a stupid manner. Stupid because the focus is about the drill in a way it is considere not a fight teqnique but merely an execise.

I agree with Myoho thinking saying this is not the right way to judge someone; especially in that case when you were watching exactly AN EXERCISE and not a fight. I respect the work of every person, even if I think in the work could be something wrong. Saying a video is stupid you could hurt a person, and with him all the people he work with, and this with no benefits for anyone.


I noticed he uses the bong sau as a block, I guess he knows an extremely external version of wing chun (if I can call it so, and I don't think I can).

You can call it with the right name that is CRCA Wing Chun…


Of course I see, in sum, he could be an effective fighter and I know because is written somewhere on his site he has been bodiguarding Seagal and other famous person...

A bodyguard can have a lot of qualities or could be only a good sniper… another time, this is not the right way to judge… I don’t think bodiguarding skills are so useful to judge a Wing Chun training/teaching method.



...but what I saw isn't good wing chun.

I suggest you to watch some Sifu Randy William's combat applications videos (there are dedicated videos for the application of the form movements during a chi-sau session) that are something closer to a sparring training. Then, even if you will not find a good wing chun, maybe you’ll have a better idea of a “good CRCA wing chun”.

I hope your research in martial arts will continue, and i invite you to contact someone in touch with a CRCA class in order to have a live experience (Videos are not always the best choice for the first approach).

Regards,

V.