Fighting Strategy

[pilgrimsunwukun]

Setting up some parameters:(1) the fighters are of equal ability(I know nothing is equal, speed, strength, skill,attitude, timimg all vary) but the two fighters are considered good by their Sifu and the scenario is not a 230 pounder with 22 years of experience verse a 10 year old who just earned a white belt. (2) there are no rules except to win (3) along with (2) weapons like knives beer bottles bats guns are present or could be cause you never know (4) this is war in the street and not fighting in a ring.

1) Position is more important then speed but you need timing to get into position
2) to be able to direct your opponent is more important then being stronger then your opponent
3) Fighting from the outside is not as good as fighting inside
4) Soft is better then hard.
5) It's better to rely on a big bomb as opposed to have smaller/weaker hits set up the big bomb, ( really ? smile smile )
6) It's best to open the opponent's centerline

Hopefully Sifu with EXPERIENCE teaching like Northern Shaolin, Iron Tiger, Piercing Hammer, Mooyongmantis(sp?) the Empoer's long fist Sifu from Chicago , can add some input.

Pilgrim Sun Wu Kung / Steve

[lkfmdc]

1. The distance between you and your opponent dictates whether an effective offense is possible. If you are not close enough to attack you have two options;

A) Stay out of range, assume a comfortable position from which you can launch all attacks (your fighting stance), and wait for your attacker to attack. This is called "SETTING".

B) Circle your attacker while out of range and wait for an opening.

2. The distance between you and your opponent dictates which tools you will use;

A) At long range the legs are best used to inflict damage, maintain distance, unbalance and break your opponent’s rhythm.

B) At middle range the hands are best used to inflict damage, deflect attacks and control.

C) At short range the elbows, knees and head can inflict damage while throws can be used to incapacitate them. Certain standing submissions can also be used to incapacitate an opponent. Takedowns can place an opponent in a position where you can stomp on them.

3. Footwork is the “secret” to effective offense and defense. It is simultaneously the most basic and most advanced skill.

4. The second most important line of defense is the high guard. It will deflect and absorb blows the fighter may not have even been aware of.

5. A fighter must learn how to effectively close the distance, to move forward without exposing themselves to a counter attack.

6. Circular techniques are the most powerful and most natural, particularly circular kicks such as the round kick. However, they expose the fighter using them to certain dangers and should be tempered by the use of straight techniques as well.

7. Straight kicks such as the foot jab and side kick are difficult and seem unnatural but skill in them can be acquired with appropriate practice. Once skill is acquired, their effectiveness can be quite impressive.

8. It is essential to remain even in emotion in order to effectively evaluate the situation you are in. You must be cautious and patient. Determine your opponent’s strengths and weaknesses. Determine whether your opponent is an aggressive or defensive (counter attack) fighter.

9. Attack the weak points of an opponent while avoiding their strengths.

10. Capitalize on mistakes and extremes. Push your attack against an overly defensive fighter. Wait patiently and counter attack an overly offensive fighter.

11. Effectiveness in fighting depends not only upon your ability to use your own techniques but also upon your ability to defend against and counter your opponent’s techniques. This means a diligent and complete practice of all the techniques.

12. A less forceful but quick and accurate strike that actually lands is superior to a very powerful blow that is slow and will miss the target.

13. Conditioning is an essential part of any fight. If skill and techniques learned are equal then the stronger, more flexible, better conditioned athlete will be victorious.

14. All fighters must learn how to “finish” a fight. They must learn how to finish their opponent once they have been stunned or taken down.

[SevenStar]

the principles used are prety much universal, be they sport or a "war in the street", as ross pretty much pointed out. however, I will disagree with the initial post in that soft is not always better than hard. sometimes being stronger is more important to being able to direct,ESPECIALLY if skill levels are equal.

[lkfmdc]

The purpose for free sparring/competition/sport is not to win or to lose. They are simply safe methods of engaging in situations which, while certainly not identical to an assault, approach these conditions as much as reasonably possible. The process is what is important.

There exist many sporting formats with differing degrees of safety and realism.

The student should be aware that the more closely a sporting format approaches realism (allowing leg kicks, knee strikes to the body, throws, takedowns, etc.,) the more training and conditioning that is required.

Other formats severely limit the legal tactics and techniques to ensure the safety of the participants (for example, American kickboxing is limited to only punches and kicks above the waist) but are further removed from realism.

The student should be aware that some of the tactics and techniques which are part of the fighting strategy may not be legal in some competition events. However, the student should still be aware of how these tactics and techniques should be used in a real assault situation.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Steve,
Interesting post!
I am a pragmatist. On the street I go for overkill. I would not defend myself with my hands if a gun or knife are present. At 0-21 feet I would use a knife (Tuellner law). At 21 feet or greater I would use a firearm (my Beretta 92FS or my Bushmaster AR-15).
If I had to use my hands, of all the styles I have practiced, I would use a combination of Monkey and Jujutsu. I would start at long range and try to destroy the opponent's legs and balance with kicks while gouging at his eyes. In close I would strike at or grab his windpipe and groin. If it went to the ground, which I would avoid, I would bite, use chokelocks and attempt to repeatedly bang his head against the ground.
However, most real fights that I have seen or been in start at contact distance. There is no circling, stances, etc.. One guy sucker punches or charges the other and the defender, if he wasn't smart enough to throw the first punch, must react instantly out of the blue.
I have a martial arts friend who teaches a couple of kung fu styles. He is great at forms and sparring. Yet he got jumped at a gas pump by a couple of guys who kicked his a$$ for change. Moral of the story, no matter how tough you are, if you can't sense an attack and respond instantly to a threat, you better have good health or life insurance.

A deputy sheriff, who has been a friend of mine since the second grade, described a day he spent in court like this:
Prosecutor: Deputy ______ can you identify the man who attacked you?
Deputy: Yes, he is sitting over there (he points at the defendant).
Prosecutor: The defendant looks like he took a serious beating. With what did you hit him.
Deputy: First, I hit him with a building. Then I hit him with the luggage rack of a car. It was still attached to the car.
I like the way my deputy friend thinks. :)

MonkeyKingUSA aka Mooyingmantis aka Richard A. Tolson

[SevenStar]

this is why these types of discussions are stupid. you can't have them because nothing is absolute - they turn into what if threads. usually, there is no time for circling, but last week at work I witnessed a fight in which they circled eachother. at work I have gone to the ground several times. never was there any broken glass, and only once did someone else try to jump in. I choked someone out on the ground last saturday, right after the fight with the circling.
anything can work, although some things have better chances of success. personally,I would never eye gouge unless we were grappling, as I have better chances of success with it if I have control and a dominant position.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Seven Star wrote:
personally,I would never eye gouge unless we were grappling

That is an important point in fighting. What works for one person will not work for everyone. I have used attacks to the eyes very effectively. Our style emphasizes this and I have worked to master it. Not everyone should try this. I said that it was what I would do.

One thing that is often overlooked in martial arts training is non-violent resolutions of tense situations. In Fort Wayne, Indiana I worked with MR/LD individuals. Some were violent towards the workers and the other clients. One of my responsibilities was teaching the "physical management" of violent individuals. This meant bringing others under control mentally or physically without causing them harm. This really honed my martial arts and crisis resolution skills. I think many martial artists are too quick to "test their skills" rather than find a non-violent resolution to a possible violent encounter. In my opinion that is sad. It promotes needless violence, opens the individual up for a civil suit and gives martial arts bad press once it hits the news.

Pilgrimsunwukun,
Sorry if this has led us away from what you wanted to discuss. But perhaps martial skills and conflict resolution training is a good example of using both soft and hard. ;)

[mantis108]

I am no expert but can't help it ...

the golden rule in fighting is always K.I.S.S. ;)

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

Seven Star wrote:
personally,I would never eye gouge unless we were grappling

That is an important point in fighting. What works for one person will not work for everyone. I have used attacks to the eyes very effectively. Our style emphasizes this and I have worked to master it. Not everyone should try this. I said that it was what I would do.

One thing that is often overlooked in martial arts training is non-violent resolutions of tense situations. In Fort Wayne, Indiana I worked with MR/LD individuals. Some were violent towards the workers and the other clients. One of my responsibilities was teaching the "physical management" of violent individuals. This meant bringing others under control mentally or physically without causing them harm. This really honed my martial arts and crisis resolution skills. I think many martial artists are too quick to "test their skills" rather than find a non-violent resolution to a possible violent encounter. In my opinion that is sad. It promotes needless violence, opens the individual up for a civil suit and gives martial arts bad press once it hits the news.


I completely agree. a quick, non violent solution is always the ideal. not everyone thinks that way,though. we once had a guy ask if he could bring his nunchaku to use on people!

[pilgrimsunwukun]

IKFMDC
1)I'm taught to never back up. One reason is that if you back up the opponent is controlling the timing and you're behind getting tee-ed off on. 2) Most important is the high guard- I attempt to cover high and low-if all the eggs are in the same high basket, then my balls get scrambled. 8) Even keeled attitude is fine but I feel an I don't care, i go in and control the space attitude is better. 12) True, hit for a reason makes sense
Seven star
Soft enables on to sense the opponet, it's faster to be softer, if you're loose you can turn the power on when you want. Better to be stronger, can't remember the exact sentence but it seems as i train I find joint locks , sweeps , trips slip in and down the person goes, even if they are way stronger then me. Especially as I change stances, levels of stances.
MonkeykingUSA
Agree guns work best. Since I don't have any , that's part of the hand to hand component of the question. Back to the idea of getting in close- what would you rather do? Disarm a gun in your chest or a knife? Both are probably fatal but if you disarm the gun at least you're not cut like you will be with a knife. I like the idea of attacking with kicks to get in and then go for the eyes. That follows the concept of getting in. Seems like Bung Bo has the simultaneous kick and eye strike/ right hand chops the left hand(I'm not a 7* person so I don't mean to offend if I'm wrong) but that does'nt seem to be a long distance technique- kicking and striking a person simultaneously seems like you are pretty close.
Fights do seem to begin with contact and sucker punches, hence the need to be enviromentally aware. I've heard the story of the guy who was beat up at the gas station from him, think that event made him train differently. Non-violence is best, clearly.

I'm just posting to hear what folks have learned. My art emphasizes position more then speed and power. Like the horse stance is strong shoulder to shoulder but not from chest to back, so place the opponent in that precarious position.
Timing isn't so good, like in blocking. Ever block a slow guy and hit him in the face? Ever try to time your block to a fatser guy and have him hit you in the face.? Position is better then timing. Hitting or kicking someone is a good way to control the timing and gain control of the person.
Regarding power, Choy La Fut people seem to have those iron forearms that just carve through a person, hence it seems power from a conditioned tool is important. Piercing Hammer has some insights, I'm sure.
It seems most feel strength is a key component but I wonder if that's really true. Nope I don't believe it is. For example Bruce Lee had difficulty playing Chi Sai with Yip Man, even though Bruce was crazy strong and Yip Man was older and weaker.
I think being able to use your strength effectively, with jing is more important then benching 425 or squattin 650. I also think stance work is better then weights.
The bad fights I've seen and the two I've been in lasted less then a minute, so I'm not so sure MMA ring conditioning is so important. ( And of couse being in fantastic shape is a really good thing.)
Mantis 108:KISS is great.

Steve/ Pilgrim / Sunwukuung

[msg]

a lot of training i have done it would be two or three on one ..and not realy holding back the people you are training with if they go down there right back on you ..it would be non stop .we even trained in water three on one to see if you can make it to the shore we did every thing we could ..but you will never know what will happen on the street .you just have to let go blast has hard as you can and dont stop till hes on the ground with some thing broken .and then get out of there

[SevenStar]

speed isn't necessarily better,imo. timing and distancing are key. when two people are equal in skill, it's individual attributes that will make or break you. that is why I say strength is so important. any grappler here would probably agree with me on that. when two people have equal ability, the advantage goes to the one with better attributes.

as for softness,it's great, but you won't always have the luxury of time. my heirarchy in terms of defense is evasion, parrying, blocking. you don't always have time for the ideal, but other options can accomplish the same result.

relaxation enables one to sense attacks, but I don't consider that softness.

[SevenStar]

as far as heavy weights vs. stance training, they are two different things. stance training is for muscular endurance and weight training is for muscular strength.

[Black Jack II]

Soft enables on to sense the opponet, it's faster to be softer, if you're loose you can turn the power on when you want.

Soft sounds like a great attribute but due to how a body often handles the psychological effect of stress reaction it is really can be a waste of time. Being soft in a fight is a part of that long chain of fighting mythos. When faced with a stressor the brain's hypothalamus is quickly activated and sets in train a series of hormonal reactions which lead to the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline into the bloodstream.

These biological changes send us into a lot of unfamiliar sensations. Tunnel vision, changes in hearing, loss of fine motor skills, shaking, confusion, anxiety, danger of going to delayed reaction if not used to fighting under adrenal based conditions.

I like flow drills, I think everything has its place, but its better to train under harder conditions like sparring and jerky situational training than working on soft principles, as when it happens you most likely wont be flowing like water but jacked up under a bucket of stress.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

speed isn't necessarily better,imo. timing and distancing are key. when two people are equal in skill, it's individual attributes that will make or break you. that is why I say strength is so important. any grappler here would probably agree with me on that. when two people have equal ability, the advantage goes to the one with better attributes.

as for softness,it's great, but you won't always have the luxury of time. my heirarchy in terms of defense is evasion, parrying, blocking. you don't always have time for the ideal, but other options can accomplish the same result.

relaxation enables one to sense attacks, but I don't consider that softness.

I think you make some good points.
But I do not personally place much emphasis on evasion, blocking and parrying. I am a big guy. Only 5'9", but 230 lbs. most of which is hardened muscle currently. So I am big enough to take some shots (iron body training) and blast through many of my opponent's attacks. Getting hit only makes me madder. So getting hit does not make me back up in a fight. I would rather take a shot to the body if it gets me in close enough to break a patella, slam a shin, or rip at a pectoral. :D
BTW, what I described above is not how I teach CMA, just how I have found it works for me.

I agree that timing and distancing are a very important key, especially in our Monkey style. Then speed and power come into play. Unfortunately, in many self-defense situations there may be no time for distancing and timing is more about how I respond to my opponent's pre-emptive attack.

A lot of ideas about strategy are really about the type of situations one might find themselves in during the course of an ordinary day. The strategies of a person who works in a medical center and only travels in very familiar settings, like myself, is going to be quite different from someone who works in law enforcement, as a bouncer, or travels to many different, unfamiliar places.

Steve,
As for whether I would rather have a gun or a knife pointed at my gut, that is a tough question. It may or may not only take one bullet to kill me at point blank range. While many people can live through numerous knife slashes (though not punctures). I think I would still rather be at 100 yards with my AR-15. :D Like I said earlier, I am a pragmatist.
Good discussion guys!

[RedLine]

Now i read a good book on martial arts, and in there it is said that the samurai's mind is like an empty bucket ( :D ) waiting to be filled when a fight starts, while the other guy is thinking how should i kill him chop his legs, or his head, first to tackle him or go sthraight to pierce him...And this thinking may take his life, because his reactions will be slow, he will be distracted and kille by the samurai, the samurai's strenght is that they can react to everything, the don't think about how to finish or something (or what to use), they just addapt to the situation, their brain is made to react to a part of a second, and when they see an opening in the opponents defence they just go for it, one second you're distracted and you're as good as dead.

[pilgrimsunwukun]

7*
Clearly coming from different philosophies, which is why there's so many arts, there is no best art (except for the one that I do ( smile, smile, it's a joke). Pary, block, aren't they the same? I don't block, I try to hit and if I do it right the line is cut and I do hit. Of course can i do so 100 out of a 100 times, NO so I have lots of work to do. Fighting a person with a knife all that parrying, blocking gets you cut.
"Timing and distance are key" Why, in what way? For me that means when they enter or when I enter the range of my tools I hit. I don't trade hits. I add hits to the beat so that they respond to me, not me responding to their actions. That's my timing and distance, hopefully done with broken rhythm. WHAT do you guys mean by timing?
"The one with better attributes wins." Sounds like the Jeet kune do thing but if you train in this and that how do you know what to keep or disregard.
BJII
Fight as you train. My teacher can kill me with blocks/hits as he gets in if he chooses. He also can get in so softly I feel nothing except a barrage of hits and the floor. Or one strike and I end up pretzel-like.
MonkeykingUSA
The idea of the gun and knife in the chest precludes the 100 yard shot( A buddy has a Korean version of an AK47 or whatever and has no recoil, very accurate) Gun disarms are easier then knife disarms IF the gun or the knife is in your chest. By that I mean in THAT scenatrio the opponent has negated one advantage of the gun-killing at a distance- and if you disarm you have the gun. Based on my shabby knife ability, it seems the knife often cuts me. When it comes to strength, as I recall you are a big guy. John E. at the Great Lakes events is huge. I wonder if the Chinese mantis master was demonstrating strength in his techniques or more skill, finesse, with variety of strength ( various jing). And I'm sure that Sifu IS VERY STRONG IN A VARIETY OF WAYS!!!!. Sera's philosophy is that skill overcomes strength. I just wonder how Mike B or Tony P. from SD feel. Out in the NW, I've trained with and do train with people who can be really soft, suck you in and hurt you if they want; in fact they can do whatever they want to you, in 30 seconds or 3 seconds. As I think about it, they can be hard as heck or soft as a butterfly, it's their choice.
I know everyone has their own stature and abilities. One truth is strenght disappears but skill and attitude can grow.
MSG
The idea of a nasty attitude overcomes skill or certainly helps in a fight- that's true. Blast and hit the folks. And run away.
The new edition of Mushashi's 5 Rings is good. The idea of TRAINING DAILY gets the movements in your system so that when the time come, time tells.

Steve/Pilgrim Sunwukung

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Steve,
Gun disarms are scary. Against a street thug who holds his gun sideways ala "Boys in the Hood" disarms are fairly straightforward. However, against someone who knows how to shoot properly, they are deadly. I served as a sergeant (E-5) in the Northeast Ohio Defense Force. I trained men in pistol techniques and firearm retention techniques. It is nearly impossible to take a firearm away from someone thus trained. Though it is also less likely to have someone like us draw a firearm on you, unless you have broken the law.
Prisons are filled with criminals who train in martial arts and weapon techniques.
Moral of the story, don't be a hero. If someone has a gun, give them what they want. Live to fight another day when YOU have the advantage.

[SevenStar]

Now i read a good book on martial arts, and in there it is said that the samurai's mind is like an empty bucket ( :D ) waiting to be filled when a fight starts, while the other guy is thinking how should i kill him chop his legs, or his head, first to tackle him or go sthraight to pierce him...And this thinking may take his life, because his reactions will be slow, he will be distracted and kille by the samurai, the samurai's strenght is that they can react to everything, the don't think about how to finish or something (or what to use), they just addapt to the situation, their brain is made to react to a part of a second, and when they see an opening in the opponents defence they just go for it, one second you're distracted and you're as good as dead.

this is training related. proper drilling and sparring can teach pretty much anyone to do this

[SevenStar]

7*
Clearly coming from different philosophies, which is why there's so many arts, there is no best art (except for the one that I do ( smile, smile, it's a joke). Pary, block, aren't they the same? I don't block, I try to hit and if I do it right the line is cut and I do hit. Of course can i do so 100 out of a 100 times, NO so I have lots of work to do. Fighting a person with a knife all that parrying, blocking gets you cut.

hitting getsyou cut just as easily as if you block, if you miss, and possibly even if you hit. such is the nature of playing with a knife.


"Timing and distance are key" Why, in what way? For me that means when they enter or when I enter the range of my tools I hit. I don't trade hits. I add hits to the beat so that they respond to me, not me responding to their actions. That's my timing and distance, hopefully done with broken rhythm. WHAT do you guys mean by timing?


THAT sounds like jkd, but principals are universal across many systems. you cannot simply say that you do not trade hits - the fact of the matter is that at some point you will,if you are really dealing with someone of equal skill,as indicated in your post. distancing is controlling the space between you and your opponent effectively. timing encompasses striking, countering,etc. in such a way that you maximize your effectiveness in an altercation.
"The one with better attributes wins." Sounds like the Jeet kune do thing but if you train in this and that how do you know what to keep or disregard.


When it comes to strength, as I recall you are a big guy. John E. at the Great Lakes events is huge. I wonder if the Chinese mantis master was demonstrating strength in his techniques or more skill, finesse, with variety of strength ( various jing). And I'm sure that Sifu IS VERY STRONG IN A VARIETY OF WAYS!!!!. Sera's philosophy is that skill overcomes strength.

theoretically,that is correct, and to some extent, realistically. however, we have all seen trained MA get beaten by stronger, untrained 'streetfighters'. if the two fighters are indeed of equal skill, still someone must win. will they win by luck of the draw, or will they win because they are stronger, faster,etc?

I know everyone has their own stature and abilities. One truth is strenght disappears but skill and attitude can grow.


I know a 70 year old that can bench 275. strength doesn't have to leave gracefully, contrary to what people tend to think.

[RedLine]

The truth is DON'T FIGHT GUY MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU! Yeah you'll use hits and hit him every time, but if he is much much bigger than you he'll just laught, because you would not have the kinetick power to inflict some real damage on him....

[MonkeyKingUSA]

The truth is DON'T FIGHT GUY MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU! Yeah you'll use hits and hit him every time, but if he is much much bigger than you he'll just laught, because you would not have the kinetick power to inflict some real damage on him....

I don't think that is very accurate. My kung fu brother Mike Biggie is a few inches shorter than me and about 55 lbs lighter than me. But I wouldn't care to go toe to toe with him. :eek: Even IF I won, I have no doubt that I would suffer some serious injuries. Just being big and strong isn't enough.

[pilgrimsunwukun]

MonkeykingUSA
Yeah guns and knives are very dangerous;if I'm ever really around them I'd run through walls. If I can't run through walls I'd attempt to control the situation so I make the choice of what gets cut.
Made the idea of weapons being present since they often are and that brings me back to the concept of not dancing around, parrying, blocking but getting in grabbing the limb, getting the weapon. So my basic premise is getting inside is better then fighting from the outside. (WHAT DO YOU THINK?)
What about the idea of openning or closing the centerline or does it even matter. Remember a Green dragon tape that argued something like," closing the centerline was one of the most important concepts, too bad so many schools didn't teach such a basic concept, etc." To me closing their centerline helps the opponent to protect their vitals, openning makes their vitals easier to get to. (WHAT DO YOU THINK)
By soft I don't mean limp, I'm talking about being able to sense the opponent. Most beginners turn their head away during an opponents attack, which is wierd since beginners rely on their vision more then anything when fighting. If I see the weapon coming I have a chance to deal with it. If I feel the opponent's movement I can respond faster (WHAT DO YOU THINK)
That's why fakes or decoys work well against beginners. Advance people see and feel what you're doing before you have a chance to complete the move.(What do YOU THINK?)
Here's some ideas from Tony Puyot, which seem to be how my teacher feels.
1) Beginners primary stimulation is sight.2) Advance folks use touch as primary, vision secondary. 3) The center must be hidden in a blur of movement like a dragon swimming in a cloud. Kinda like a decoy? (WHAT DO YOU THINK?)
I think there's some potential posts in the WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[The Xia]

The truth is DON'T FIGHT GUY MUCH BIGGER THAN YOU! Yeah you'll use hits and hit him every time, but if he is much much bigger than you he'll just laught, because you would not have the kinetick power to inflict some real damage on him....
Tell that to some of the guys that beat Akebono. :rolleyes:

[RedLine]

Tell that to some of the guys that beat Akebono. :rolleyes:

Who is Akebono? And i mean people double your size and weight(even 1/2 bigger than your size is enough)... :)

[The Xia]

Who is Akebono? And i mean people double your size and weight(even 1/2 bigger than your size is enough)... :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akebono_Taro
Is he big enough for you? :D

[SevenStar]

I don't think that is very accurate. My kung fu brother Mike Biggie is a few inches shorter than me and about 55 lbs lighter than me. But I wouldn't care to go toe to toe with him. :eek: Even IF I won, I have no doubt that I would suffer some serious injuries. Just being big and strong isn't enough.

that is correct - it's not enough. but when all else is equal, those are advantages.

[SevenStar]

Made the idea of weapons being present since they often are and that brings me back to the concept of not dancing around, parrying, blocking but getting in grabbing the limb, getting the weapon. So my basic premise is getting inside is better then fighting from the outside. (WHAT DO YOU THINK?)


just rushing in and grabbing the limb is a great way to get cut. evade, parry or strike the limb, checking it afterward, so you can then control it. I am not a big kali guy, but trained it long enough to know that it's really easy to get cut.



By soft I don't mean limp, I'm talking about being able to sense the opponent.

I realize that, but at the same time, softness and relaxation are not the same. relaxation is all that's required in order to sense an opponent.



Most beginners turn their head away during an opponents attack, which is wierd since beginners rely on their vision more then anything when fighting.

it's not weird at all. it's called flinch reflex. nobody wants to be hit, and the natural response to a perceived strike is to flinch away.



If I see the weapon coming I have a chance to deal with it. If I feel the opponent's movement I can respond faster (WHAT DO YOU THINK)

if you are close enough to touch him, why try to sense his attack? control the limb and disarm him.


That's why fakes or decoys work well against beginners. Advance people see and feel what you're doing before you have a chance to complete the move.(What do YOU THINK?)

too broad of a generalization. a feint can work on anyone. you seem to be addressing issues from an ideal, theoretical standpoint.


1) Beginners primary stimulation is sight.2) Advance folks use touch as primary, vision secondary.

sounds like someone who relies on trapping, chi sau or grappling. a pure striker would disagree, unless you are in clinch range.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Steve,
I have to agree with 7* that rushing in can get you cut easily if the opponent knows how to use a knife. One of my past students in Ft. Wayne, Indiana also trained in escrima. Seeing what he could do with a knife gave me a deep respect for knifefighters.
Though I agree that gaining control of the knife arm, if possible, is a good approach. Keeping a distance only gives a weapon wielder more opportunities to attack outside of your range.
However, one must not be overly focused on the knife. Remember that the attacker has a fist, two feet and other body parts with which to attack. In our Monkey style weapon forms we emphasize using all of the body to attack not just the weapon featured in the form. This goes along with our "four hands" theory.

I believe strongly in the sensitivity theory that you are talking about. My students start practicing a hand/arm sensitivity drill during their very first class. This type of training is pursued throughout their training time. I even incorporated it into my jujutsu classes because I think that it is such a useful skill.

As far as the centerline goes, we keep ours closed more than than you might see in 7* PM. I teach students the importance of learning how to both close or open the opponent's centerline. Both methods are used in our attacks, so we do not need to overly rely on one or the other.

[msg]

i understand what you are saying i have trained in escrima and in silat knife fighting my teacher would not teach me the knife for a long time so i understand the respecting the blade

[Yum Cha]

I have never seen such weak FU in my life. You are all worthless and weak.

Firstly, you get the guys email address and head back to your keyboard.

Then, you email him telling him you are the the senior student of <insert Sifu/Master/Coach here> and highly skilled in the art(s) of <insert flashy well know martial art here>.

From there, you tell him that you have insulted you, your teacher and all the brothers that study your art, and that they are honour-less scum, and there is no escaping your retribution, and that of your "family". Feel free to add a few creative in****s abour weeping anii, fat mamas, puss, intellectual disability or even general ****sexual predisposition. Just to show you are a force to be reckoned with.

(Note: make sure you use an anonymous email to avoid any ability to trace your challenge/threat.)

At this point you challenge your enemy to a "no holds barred" death-match on the beaches of Kowloon Island 4 months in advance, so you have time to train yourself up for the meeting by eating small children, and beating live elephants to death with your chi-hardened iron fists of death, and your anaconda like choke holds. At this point you send him one of those gay-boy shots of your half naked torso, covered with rippling muscle. (I can give you a short course in photoshop to get the proper results for only 3x $50 payments if your reply within the next 3o minutes.)

...and you wait.

If they do reply, inform them that the match will be multi fold. Grappling up close, striking at medium distance, kicking at longer range, knives at under 20 feet, pistols at 20-50 feet, kentucky long rifles at 50 to 500 feet, 50cal milspec sniper rifles at 500 to 5000 feet, 20mm cannons at 5000 to 5 miles, cruise missles at between 5 miles and 500 miles, and tactical nuclear weapons at any greater distance.

By the time he gets through that, you should have successfully launched your little bundle of Einsteins joy, and the son of a b1tch should be half way to pink vapour.

If of course you haven't got a tactical nuke at your disposal, just tell him you did your knee and you'll get back to him in a bit.

[Meat Shake]

I start with a nice dinner and bottle of fine wine, then move the couch for a foot massage.
After working my way through the body to loosen things up, Ill change positions for a better angle to work from. At this point more wine may be needed, maybe not.
There may be children watching so I cannot say anymore.

[SevenStar]

I believe strongly in the sensitivity theory that you are talking about. My students start practicing a hand/arm sensitivity drill during their very first class. This type of training is pursued throughout their training time. I even incorporated it into my jujutsu classes because I think that it is such a useful skill.

sensitivity IS necessary. But grappling develops it's own sensitivity, that's all.

[Black Jack II]

Depending on the style and the teacher escrima and the silat family of systems can have some really good midrange blade disarming techinques. Because of there edged weapon based culture you have a world of principles and variations on these different principles to study.But some of it can be really techincally hard to apply in a live sparring enviroment,especially if you are working in a largo/knife boxing range.

Though for really close range knife engagements, the range you often don't see the blade intell you get stabbed, its interesting to take a look at the combat athletics of greco-roman clinch work. Greco really helps you get a hold of the arm, its simple to learn from a western mindset imo, its easier to use clinch work drills against a live opponent than patterned transitional kali flow drills, and it sets up some simple close range counters and controls.

Headbutts, knees, arm wrenches...

[pilgrimsunwukun]

That is pretty wierd but there were some interesting comments.

Anyway it's seems to me that skill can over come strength. Position overcomes speed. And being able to control-with hits, perrys,blocks, kicks, traps, locks, throws, whatever- if you can control the opponent you can do whatever you want to them. Not easy to do but kung fu skill isn't easy to achieve.

Pilgrim Sun wu kung Steve

[SevenStar]

That is pretty wierd but there were some interesting comments.

Anyway it's seems to me that skill can over come strength. Position overcomes speed. And being able to control-with hits, perrys,blocks, kicks, traps, locks, throws, whatever- if you can control the opponent you can do whatever you want to them. Not easy to do but kung fu skill isn't easy to achieve.

Pilgrim Sun wu kung Steve

skill CAN overcome strength,but it won't always do it. if you and I are equal skill levels,being stronger gives me an advantage over you. you cannot always control either. that is the bane of what if discussions - you tend to assume everything you attempt will work. position only overcomes speed if you can achieve position faster than I can. that would make the attributes of speed and timing more important than position, initially, because those are what will get you the position. out of curiosity, have you ever competed full contact?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Having studied both Chinese and Japanese arts for decades, my studies have given me a strong belief in oneupmanship. Emptyhands were a last resort in ancient times. One only fought barehanded when they lost their weapon.
I am sure everyone here realizes the necessary combat use of anything around them (a belt, a chair, or a building) as a weapon. So I will not discuss the obvious.
When truly defending one's life I feel fighting must boil down to: 1) stealing the initiative in the fight, 2) using economy of motion, 3) using the most vicious attacks in the most committed manner.
As for speed, strength, timing, etc. these are all very important tools. But I always remember a saying I heard years ago, "It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog". In the end much of a battle comes down to the mental game. Who can eat the most bitter in order to win.

[SevenStar]

Having studied both Chinese and Japanese arts for decades, my studies have given me a strong belief in oneupmanship. Emptyhands were a last resort in ancient times. One only fought barehanded when they lost their weapon.

true.


3) using the most vicious attacks in the most committed manner.

that's relative. If I KO someone with a left hook, is that more vicious than your eye gouge if the guy still keeps fighting after you do it?




As for speed, strength, timing, etc. these are all very important tools. But I always remember a saying I heard years ago, "It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog". In the end much of a battle comes down to the mental game. Who can eat the most bitter in order to win.

theoretically, that is a great quote. realistically, it doesn't always hold water. like I said, but will say it again. AS SKILL LEVELS BECOME EQUAL, those things come into play. I'm sorry, but a 130 lb. guy that is my skill level or lower really doesn't have much of a chance against me. Now, if his skill is far greater than mine, then my strength advantage means much less, because he has me out classed.

sticking with myself as an example, judo black belts and brown belts are either my skill level or higher. in shiai, I have beaten black belts by forcing a throw, because I didn't off balance them properly. strength was my advantage, and it won me the match. our skill level was close, and greater strength gave me the advantage. Against lower belts I don't even have to use technique. I can just overpower them if I choose to. In bjj, purple, brown and black belts give me fits. They outclass me so much that I cannot handle them. However, I can physically just resist a lot of their submission attempts - strength is my equalizer. When I do, they merely transition to something else and get me another way, but it helps me to stay above water when I need it. People lower skill level than me, I can use nothing but strength the whole match, and they will still never have a chance. people my level I can use strength to power out of situations or force them into others. this is a great advantage, as if my skill is lacking at a particular instant, brute force is an equalizer. The same can be said of speed, or any other attribute.

[pilgrimsunwukun]

7*
Nope , never done full contact. I'm not ready for everything goes fighting- broken bones, blown out knees, elbows to the throat all done on concrete. So I suck but at least I know it. If you eye gouge a guy and they're still able to fight you, well you do have the experience of doing bjj, shui jow, long fist, muy thai, after an eye gouge and all that I'd think they wouldn't be able to last against you. My own experience is being blinded for a moment was just as bad as getting the wobbbly knees before falling down knocked out.

I think when talking about position is better then speed, getting inside is better then fighting from the outside, superior attitude overcomes skill, skill overcomes strength- all those are strategy except for the last. Skill gives me tactics, skill gives me that ability to do my strategy, blah, blah, blah

Both strategy and tactics are found in the training of the plethora of choices out there.

It's too bad Piercing hammer, Northern Shaolin, Three Harmonies and other Sifu don't chime in but then again,"Those that know don't say, those that say don't know." I'm out.
Steve

[unkokusai]

If of course you haven't got a tactical nuke at your disposal, just tell him you did your knee and you'll get back to him in a bit.

Ah! The sifuabel technique!

[pilgrimsunwukun]

As a Sifu, Monkeyking USA, thanks for your insights.
Steve

[unkokusai]

"It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog".


That's all well and good unless its a Great Dane and a Pomeranian.

[Yum Cha]

Another saying:

"Its not the size of the ship, but the skill of the seaman, but ain't no fool goes out to sea in a canoe."

[SevenStar]

7*
Nope , never done full contact. I'm not ready for everything goes fighting- broken bones, blown out knees, elbows to the throat all done on concrete. So I suck but at least I know it. If you eye gouge a guy and they're still able to fight you, well you do have the experience of doing bjj, shui jow, long fist, muy thai, after an eye gouge and all that I'd think they wouldn't be able to last against you. My own experience is being blinded for a moment was just as bad as getting the wobbbly knees before falling down knocked out.

I think when talking about position is better then speed, getting inside is better then fighting from the outside, superior attitude overcomes skill, skill overcomes strength- all those are strategy except for the last. Skill gives me tactics, skill gives me that ability to do my strategy, blah, blah, blah

Both strategy and tactics are found in the training of the plethora of choices out there.

It's too bad Piercing hammer, Northern Shaolin, Three Harmonies and other Sifu don't chime in but then again,"Those that know don't say, those that say don't know." I'm out.
Steve

that's not really strategy. strategy isa combination and constant analysis of those things. for example, you say being inside is better than being outside. what if you are 6'5 and your opponent is 5'9. you have a reach advantage, so why step in, when you can stay out and have less chance of getting hit? if you are in close, your long arms are now a disadvantage. THIS is strategy. the skill vs. strength bit is assumption.

as for the guys you mentioned, pm them. they may not have seen this thread yet

[SevenStar]

Another saying:

"Its not the size of the ship, but the skill of the seaman, but ain't no fool goes out to sea in a canoe."

nice one...

[Yum Cha]

nice one...

Speaking strictly about martial arts skill, of course....:D :D

[SevenStar]

But of course! :D