Links to the Shamrock Vs. Gracie fight last night??

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Anyone got a link? I don't even know who won?

Any info??

[Shaolinlueb]

they fought?

try www.maxfighting.com

[Black Jack II]

Frank punked out and used two illegal blows to the back of Gracie's head when they were on the ground. Gracie had to quit due to injury and was given the victory and Frank was disquallified.

Actually, I think Frank had one warning before those two knees for a illegal blow. Guy is a total walking a$$t@rd to the sport on how he handled himself after the fight. He knew what he was doing or he was to stupid to read the rules since 1999.

[SevenStar]

they fought?

try www.maxfighting.com

they fought last night in the pro elite, a new pro venue. I REALLY wanted to go but was unable. tomorrow night I'll ask if anyone is putting it on youtube. since we had guys fighting in it, I am pretty sure the entire event got taped.

[Yao Sing]

So basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.

Interesting.

[lkfmdc]

So basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.

Interesting.

Fine, excpet that it was neither Ken nor Royce :cool:

[unkokusai]

So basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.

Interesting.

Oh, here we go...

[SevenStar]

So basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.

Interesting.

wrong guys. it was frank and renzo

[Black Jack II]

S
o basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.

I knew this subject was going to crop up. As soon as I saw that outcome on Showtime.:D

Plus before anyone comes on bjj nuthugging and says that Renzo was faking it or something did not see the fight. That guy was out of it and the strikes were very close in knee blows from the ground. Actually from Frank's freakin back.

[rogue]

But what about the Ken/Royce fight, how'd that one go down?:confused:

[LeeCasebolt]

But what about the Ken/Royce fight, how'd that one go down?:confused:

The one twelve years ago, or the one fourteen years ago?

[rogue]

I thought it was last night. I must have slept longer than I thought.:eek:

[SevenStar]

rogue van winkle

[lkfmdc]

the ONLY footage I could find

http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/renzo-gracie_frank-shamrock.gif

[rogue]

rogue van winkle

When I woke up I had this long thing hanging down to my knees, turns out it was just a beard.:o :mad: :( :D

[IronWeasel]

I wouldn't pay pay-per-view to see that fight.



I would definitely pay to see Knifefighter vs Lunghushan!

[Oso]

ok, just watched it.

however, there was a 2 1/2 year old in the house so the volume was down and I wasn't able to totally concentrate on the fight.

as BJII says, they were knees by Frank from his back to Renzo who was bascially in a side mount.

i did not get to listen to any of the after fight commentary but it seems as if the technical was that they could have been said to have been to the spine/back of the head ??????

from my brief glimpes it didn't seem as if they were intentionally (malicious) to Renzo's spine/head...just striking attempts from the bottom.

LKFMDC: the link gives a '403:forbidden' error.

anyone got anything else?

[WinterPalm]

This might bring teh bna...but whatever.

http://ninjashoes.net/forum/

Make ten "meaningful" posts and then they have a fights and highlights section that includes any combat sport and all the videos literally the night they air.

Enjoy.

[Oso]

ninjas couldn't post one meaningful post if they wanted to much less ten...ther tabi's done pinched all the brains out their big toe.

[Meat Shake]

Ninjas will make posts that meaningfully blind you and steal your shoes and maybe even your soul!

Really though...
After watching Crocop and Rampage systematically dismantle their opponents in UFC... My faith in UFC in terms of technicality and not brutes punching each other in a half drunken fashion has been shaken.
Pride seems to house more skilled fighters, and less steroids.

[Oso]

ha...the debil done took my sole yeers'go...traded it for a lightsaber so the neenjers coun't git at it.

[Meat Shake]

Light saber glows anyhow, maybe a secret soul holder?
Dirty body snatcher.
Im brain dead.
Time for bed.
Be well Mr. Oso,my friend, hope life has been treating you well.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I watched the fight and thought that Frank did a pretty good job.. the knees in question were one to the side of the head, near the ear.. the second, as Frank executed, Renzo turned this head and exposed the back of his head for the impact.. if it is such a dangerous technique, why would someone actually offer the back of their head as a target? I don't think Frank intentionally targeted the back of the head, he took a shot at the side of the head and Renzo made the decision to turn it into the back of the head.. Frank was calm and controlled on his back, Renzo couldn't work his game..

Be well..

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, the first knee was good, and in trying to get away from the second Renzo presented his neck. I can understand Frank being a bit frustrated as he'd definitely been ahead for most of the fight, and to lose like that is upsetting.

[Oso]

Light saber glows anyhow, maybe a secret soul holder?
Dirty body snatcher.
Im brain dead.
Time for bed.
Be well Mr. Oso,my friend, hope life has been treating you well.

chuckle...yea, doing ok. thanks. hope you are too. :)

[rogue]

Can't really say Shamrock was robbed as it technically was a rule violation, but Gracie was stupid for moving into the second one.

Frank sounded classy but it sounds like team Gracie lost a little respect with the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO8VJFf5dgQ

So how soon is the rematch?

[Ben Gash]

Ninjas will make posts that meaningfully blind you and steal your shoes and maybe even your soul!

Really though...
After watching Crocop and Rampage systematically dismantle their opponents in UFC... My faith in UFC in terms of technicality and not brutes punching each other in a half drunken fashion has been shaken.
Pride seems to house more skilled fighters, and less steroids.

To be fair the matchups weren't exactly great, Sanchez had nothing like the skill or experience to be in against Filipovic, and Rampage has beaten Lidell, but I know what you're saying.

[Oso]

and how much of this new venue is controlled by Zuffa/Dana White?

i mean, wouldn't it have to be for them to use the UFC refs?

[brothernumber9]

There are very few if any venues in the U.S. that allow knees to the head on the ground. The fact that Shamrock's knees to Renzo were either on the side or back of the head is inconsequential (sp?), except for how it made Renzo feel. They were still illegal.

Shamrock went on about how he was gonna knock Gracie out anyway, but the fight up to that point did not foreshadow that. I think that was just a dig to rile the Gracies up so he can get another main event match in the future. Actually it looked like he (Shamrock) was getting close to getting to possibly getting his arm in a precarious position. One could see that Renzo was constantly working the shoulder and arm from the side and was perhaps waiting for the chance to spin and pull it straight. Renzo was getting the takedowns, but neither fighter was hurt up until that point.

[Oso]

To be fair the matchups weren't exactly great, Sanchez had nothing like the skill or experience to be in against Filipovic, and Rampage has beaten Lidell, but I know what you're saying.


holy crap...when did Rampage beat Lidell?

oh, wait, you mean a while back?

[Ben Gash]

In 2003 I believe :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqSWiSyewo

[Knifefighter]

So basically Ken displayed unsportsmanlike behavior and wins the jerk of the year award but in reality beat the **** out of Royce with ineffective illegal moves that Knifefighter routinely shrugs off.
1- It was Frank vs. Renzo.
2- Knee strikes are extremely effective... as are elbows... as are headbutts.

STUPID DUMB@SS

[SevenStar]

and how much of this new venue is controlled by Zuffa/Dana White?

i mean, wouldn't it have to be for them to use the UFC refs?


Actually, from what I understand, it's got nothing to do with them. one of the head directors is talk show host jimmy kimmel. At one point in time, "gracie Killer" wallid ismail was helping to promote it, but he fell out with some of the guys involved.

[SevenStar]

I haven't been to the school to ask about clips yet, but someone else posted this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvLDeeGl4Fk

[Oso]

Actually, from what I understand, it's got nothing to do with them. one of the head directors is talk show host jimmy kimmel. At one point in time, "gracie Killer" wallid ismail was helping to promote it, but he fell out with some of the guys involved.

curious. i wonder if there's enough room for multiple commercial mma 'shows'.

i know, Pride and K1 are out there but not on the commercial level that Dana has taken the UFC to.

MMA would have to get as big as any of the big 3 to support it, don't you think?

I think the best fight to watch was the women's fight. That was just awesome to see women fighting at that level....though I think the commentators referred to their beauty too much.

I do find it interesting that in a lot of the sci fi I read...mostly stuff dating from the 80' on...that there is usually some sort of major sport that is combat or psuedo combat related that has taken over for football etc.

[Chief Fox]

I watched the fight, the post fight interviews and Renzos interview on Sherdog.

First, any knee to the head on the ground is an illegal move. Frank has been around for quite a while and is most likely aware of this. I don't know how he couldn't be. He knew what he was doing was illegal.

Second, after the first illegal knee, Renzo turned his head to Frank as to say WTF! Unfortunately, this exposed the back of his head. Then of course the second knee came along.

Frank was being controlled, couldn't escape so he performed an illegal move to soften Renzo up. He probably wasn't trying to injure him. He probably didn't even care about the point reduction. He just wanted the fight stood up so he could go for the knock out.

[rogue]

I think the best fight to watch was the women's fight. That was just awesome to see women fighting at that level....though I think the commentators referred to their beauty too much.

And you weren't yelling every minute, "I think I saw something, I think I saw something!":D

[Yao Sing]

1- It was Frank vs. Renzo.
2- Knee strikes are extremely effective... as are elbows... as are headbutts.

STUPID DUMB@SS

You sure are but I'm glad you came to your senses enough to admit the effectiveness of these moves.

Of course when it suits you I'm sure you'll go back shrugging them off whenever a CMA proclaims their value.

And thanks for the correction everyone. For some reason I assumed it was Ken and Royce.

[Knifefighter]

Of course when it suits you I'm sure you'll go back shrugging them off whenever a CMA proclaims their value.
Ummm... see if you can go back and find a single post where I claimed knees were not effective. Knees are hugely effective, as are elbows, as are headbutts. I've never claimed any different.

Of course any technique is context specific. Knees from the bottom side control position usually don't have a whole lot of effect.

It's too bad MMA is getting so weeenified, as it would have been interesting to see how much effect those knees would have had on Renzo if they were still legal.

[Oso]

so, i'm a little confused.

what exactly was the call?

was it 'any' strike to the spine/back of head?

or 'no knees on the ground, period' ?

or what, exactly?

[brothernumber9]

no knees to the head (while) on the ground

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Now, this may sound a bit odd, but.. Frank was the one "on the ground", Renzo was in the above/controlling position.. if Renzo was driving knees into Frank's head against the canvas, that would be inappropriate.. how is it different to allow knees to the head while in the standing mode as opposed to on the ground when there is nothing to force the head into position.. my understanding is that the ground rule is to prevent crushing someone's head against the canvas, or delivering devastating punishment while they may be incapable of defending themselves.. neither of which applied in this case.. not to mention that Renzo clearly and intentionally exposed his own back of head for the second knee strike..

Second, after the first illegal knee, Renzo turned his head to Frank as to say WTF! Unfortunately, this exposed the back of his head.
We perceive that situation differently.. i saw it as Renzo getting hurt by the first knee and exposing the back of his head to avoid another blow to the side of the head.. i certainly cannot assume he was thinking or saying, "WTF".. i think he was just avoiding another bell-ringing knee to the side of his head..

Regardless, it was an undesirable end to the contest.. but, on the street, Renzo would have been destroyed.. there are no rules out there.. So, considering the claims of "closest to the real thing", Renzo lost.. but, in the world of rules and the ability to abuse the rules, the perspective is quite different.. how easy is it to evaluate your odds after a few minutes with an opponent, and then to present a situation that allows you to take advantage of a technicallity? just sayin'.. anything is possible..

Be well...

[Knifefighter]

i saw it as Renzo getting hurt by the first knee and exposing the back of his head to avoid another blow to the side of the head.. i certainly cannot assume he was thinking or saying, "WTF".. i think he was just avoiding another bell-ringing knee to the side of his head..
Haven't seen it yet... but I would be pretty surprised at Renzo getting "destroyed" by knees from the bottom, although it definitely could be problematic and would probably require him to loosen up his control from the top a bit. I'm betting it was more along the lines of Renzo playing to the no knee strikes rule, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see it.

[Oso]

Haven't seen it yet... but I would be pretty surprised at Renzo getting "destroyed" by knees from the bottom, although it definitely could be problematic and would probably require him to loosen up his control from the top a bit. I'm betting it was more along the lines of Renzo playing to the no knee strikes rule, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see it.

imho, the knees that Shamrock landed were pretty strong. maybe not destroyingly so but you can see that when you watch it. wierd **** can happen and seemingly unpowerful stuff can damage...not a direct correlation here but I think most people agree that Dale Earnhardt's crash didn't look strong enough to snap his neck.

i do agree that Renzo was playing it as much as he could.

[Chief Fox]

Greetings..

Now, this may sound a bit odd, but.. Frank was the one "on the ground", Renzo was in the above/controlling position.. if Renzo was driving knees into Frank's head against the canvas, that would be inappropriate.. how is it different to allow knees to the head while in the standing mode as opposed to on the ground when there is nothing to force the head into position.. my understanding is that the ground rule is to prevent crushing someone's head against the canvas, or delivering devastating punishment while they may be incapable of defending themselves.. neither of which applied in this case.. not to mention that Renzo clearly and intentionally exposed his own back of head for the second knee strike..

We perceive that situation differently.. i saw it as Renzo getting hurt by the first knee and exposing the back of his head to avoid another blow to the side of the head.. i certainly cannot assume he was thinking or saying, "WTF".. i think he was just avoiding another bell-ringing knee to the side of his head..

Regardless, it was an undesirable end to the contest.. but, on the street, Renzo would have been destroyed.. there are no rules out there.. So, considering the claims of "closest to the real thing", Renzo lost.. but, in the world of rules and the ability to abuse the rules, the perspective is quite different.. how easy is it to evaluate your odds after a few minutes with an opponent, and then to present a situation that allows you to take advantage of a technicallity? just sayin'.. anything is possible..

Be well...
I can certainly see your point of view about the first and second knees.

My comment was based on what I saw during the fight and then the interview with Renzo after the fight. That interview was on Sherdog.com.

Now, about your point with knees to the head while on the ground. The fight had gone to the ground. So any knee thrown at that point would be considered a knee on the ground, regarless of who was on top. What's the difference between a knee to the head while standing and a knee to the head while on the ground?

Now this is just my opinion. When fighters are standing, knees can really only strike the exposed areas. These areas are also open to punches and kicks. The exposed areas I speak of are the the face and jaw area. When on the ground, the fighters are many times in non-traditional positions, exposing other parts of the head. This is the difference between standing and on the ground.

I believe any strike to the back of the head is illegal. I know that a downward elbow to the back of the head is illegal.

I'm certainly not an expert on the rules and to be honest, I attend a Renzo Gracie BJJ school, so my opinion is a little biased.

It is a bummer that the fight ended in the way that it did though. I would have like to see Renzo submit Frank.

[Chief Fox]

i do agree that Renzo was playing it as much as he could.
REALLY!?

I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!

I've even heard a story where he was stabbed through the fence at a competition before.

He tried to stand up after the knees and his legs were so wobbley he couldn't stand.

He refused the neck collar and the stretcher. If he could have continued, there's no doubt that he would have.

The Gracies are a very proud family. I don't think he was "playing it" at all.

[Charles T Rose]

He was not playing it up at all. When Sak dislocated his elbow he didnt even wince.Those knees were brutal....great technique if it was legal but then again if it was legal then the fighter on top would be in a superior position to deliver them.

[MasterKiller]

REALLY!?

I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!

I've even heard a story where he was stabbed through the fence at a competition before.

He tried to stand up after the knees and his legs were so wobbley he couldn't stand.

He refused the neck collar and the stretcher. If he could have continued, there's no doubt that he would have.

The Gracies are a very proud family. I don't think he was "playing it" at all.


Bias, imo.

[WinterPalm]

Irregardless of the rules, Shamrock would not have won. Gracie was in a far better control position to deliver knees throughout much of the fight. Shamrock intentionally threw two knees to the back of the head/spine...if it was street or no rules, Gracie would have kneed his head in a long time ago.

[Knifefighter]

REALLY!?I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!
Like I said, I haven't seen it yet. However, you'd be surprised at how illegal moves and the resulting "injuries" get played up at competitions. It's part of competing and the best guys are some of the best at doing it.

[Oso]

REALLY!?

I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!

i know, i saw the clip

I've even heard a story where he was stabbed through the fence at a competition before.

ok

He tried to stand up after the knees and his legs were so wobbley he couldn't stand.

He refused the neck collar and the stretcher.

Why is that smart or brave?

If he could have continued, there's no doubt that he would have.

The Gracies are a very proud family. I don't think he was "playing it" at all.

I'm not knocking his pride or anything. Like KF said, it's part of competing.

[Chief Fox]

"He refused the neck collar and the stretcher."
Why is that smart or brave?
I didn't say it was smart or brave but if he really wanted to "play it" he would have taken both.

My point is, I believe that he wanted to continue fighting. Herb Dean (the ref) had to tell him to sit down. Renzo was ready to get up and start fighting again.

The guy was vomiting in the dressing room afterwards.

BUT the truth is, I wasn't there so i don't know for sure. As far as competitors faking injuries goes, yes I believe that type of thing happens but not from Renzo Gracie. If the guy was physically able to fight, he would fight.

[Nick Forrer]

Renzo was dominating the fight. He took Frank down three times and had him pinned in side control each time with only the stand up and the end of the round letting frank off the hook...why would he bother to fake being injured and risk losing? The last knee he took was a peach (watch the slo mo replay of it).

[SevenStar]

I didn't say it was smart or brave but if he really wanted to "play it" he would have taken both.

My point is, I believe that he wanted to continue fighting. Herb Dean (the ref) had to tell him to sit down. Renzo was ready to get up and start fighting again.

The guy was vomiting in the dressing room afterwards.

BUT the truth is, I wasn't there so i don't know for sure. As far as competitors faking injuries goes, yes I believe that type of thing happens but not from Renzo Gracie. If the guy was physically able to fight, he would fight.


everyone I know who WAS at the fight say it was a BS call, and that the fight easily coulda continued.

[Oso]

ok, ok...I'm just calling what I thought I percieved a time or two after the match....

**** all martial artists anyways...my new hero is the dude in that Ninja Warrior thing IF posted...that was the shiznit.

[Black Jack II]

everyone I know who WAS at the fight say it was a BS call, and that the fight easily coulda continued.

That seems easy to state from the stands if you think about it. It may of been a different story from inside that ring. A lot of strikes that don't look like much can have some odd turnouts.

[Yao Sing]

Ummm... see if you can go back and find a single post where I claimed knees were not effective. Knees are hugely effective, as are elbows, as are headbutts. I've never claimed any different.

Sorry Knifefighter, you seem to have a knack for misunderstanding (although I really think you prefer to avoid the point). I was talking about strikes to the back of the head being effective.

Remember stating that you've been hit there before while shooting and it didn't stop you, even hit with weapons, or do I have to dig it up? It was a response to a video clip of a shoot defense.

Don't have time now but I'll find it and quote for you when I get a chance.

[Knifefighter]

Sorry Knifefighter, you seem to have a knack for misunderstanding (although I really think you prefer to avoid the point). I was talking about strikes to the back of the head being effective.
Remember stating that you've been hit there before while shooting and it didn't stop you, even hit with weapons, or do I have to dig it up? It was a response to a video clip of a shoot defense.

Everything is context specific.

If we are talking knees, it’s physically impossible to throw knees to the back of the head from a sprawl.

As far as elbows from the sprawl, about the only people you will stop from a sprawl there are possibly people who have never taken a hit before and freak out the first time they get hit at all. Can it happen? Yeah, but it makes a lot more sense to focus on more realistic applications of stuffing a leg takedown attack. Of course lots of people are too proud to admit that maybe their styles don’t have all the answers and they might have to look to the grapplers to figure out how to stop grappling attacks.

Strikes to the back of the head and neck can be extremely effective from more advantageous positions such as having a full back mount… even then, they are often not fight stoppers, but rather, open up the more effective finishes.

[SevenStar]

Remember stating that you've been hit there before while shooting and it didn't stop you, even hit with weapons, or do I have to dig it up? It was a response to a video clip of a shoot defense.


that doesn't mean he said elbows weren't effective. I've been hit with them in that situation also. And in THAT SITUATION, they are not effective. If I'm shooting in and have your legs, you are uprooted and likely already moving backward. you have no power at that point. No strike you throw at that time will have any real effect.

[gabe]

that doesn't mean he said elbows weren't effective. I've been hit with them in that situation also. And in THAT SITUATION, they are not effective. If I'm shooting in and have your legs, you are uprooted and likely already moving backward. you have no power at that point. No strike you throw at that time will have any real effect.

That's obvious. At that point, nothing's effective. The question is whether or not the strikes prior to you getting control are effective. Whether such strikes can prevent you from getting control, and possibly stop you all together.

It's really a question of who executes. If the shooter gets his stuff off, he wins and vice versa. And if any of you are willing to take elbows to the back of your head believing that they will be ineffective, well good for you!

[SevenStar]

That's obvious. At that point, nothing's effective. The question is whether or not the strikes prior to you getting control are effective. Whether such strikes can prevent you from getting control, and possibly stop you all together.

It's really a question of who executes. If the shooter gets his stuff off, he wins and vice versa. And if any of you are willing to take elbows to the back of your head believing that they will be ineffective, well good for you!


when you shoot in, your head is up, not down. There's not a huge worry abut the back of my neck being struck. As has been said, the back can take a lot of damage. If you can't stop the shot with the one or two strikes you have time for, then you are gonna be on the ground. This is where sprawling comes in.

[Knifefighter]

And if any of you are willing to take elbows to the back of your head believing that they will be ineffective, well good for you!

Ask anyone who has much grappling experience their opinion on elbows to defend a leg takedown. They will tell you it is pretty low on the effectiveness scale

The only people who will tell you that elbows are effective are those who have done very little or no grappling. If you are willing to rely on their inexperienced opinions to determine your defense, well good for you.

[The Willow Sword]

Hey its a good technique to use when some turd is side mounting you. Who cares if it is illegal in the ring? oh sorry someone may get hurt in the ring:rolleyes: what a bunch of horsesh!t. This is the reason why i dont like these UFC fights. Its a waste of time energy and health. Both showed good technical skills in the ring, one showed better sportsmanship(even though he was all loopy after the knee to the head) the other was being an A$$. This is the kind of mentality that these brutal sports endorse, They love it. Brings a soap opera element to what would otherwise be a typical wwf wrestling match without all the gay tights and make up. Except that these fights are "Real":rolleyes: but only real in that you can beat the tar out of someone in a technical way with rules and regulations. Out in the real world it is different as we all know.

Whatever,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,Peace,TWS

[SevenStar]

I don't know what irks me more - the fact that wasted your time posting that, or the fact that I wasted my time reading it and responding.

[Knifefighter]

Hey its a good technique to use when some turd is side mounting you.
It probably would have been much less effective if Renzo wasn't following the rules and was throwing his own knees from the top. Knees from the top are almost always more effective than those on the bottom.



Who cares if it is illegal in the ring? oh sorry someone may get hurt in the ring:rolleyes:
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's perspective), MMA is now a sport with rules that make it more and more audience friendly, safer for the participants, and less and less like a real fight.


what a bunch of horsesh!t.

What is really a bunch of hors3sh!1 are the MA fantasy boys who pretend to fight with more lethal techniques, but spend their training time pulling their techniques because they are "too deadly".


Except that these fights are "Real":rolleyes: but only real in that you can beat the tar out of someone in a technical way with rules and regulations. Out in the real world it is different as we all know.

Yes, training in the TMA fantasy world of pretend hitting and pulling strikes to "lethal" targets is somehow more real. 4:rolleyes:

[gabe]

Ask anyone who has much grappling experience their opinion on elbows to defend a leg takedown. They will tell you it is pretty low on the effectiveness scale

The only people who will tell you that elbows are effective are those who have done very little or no grappling. If you are willing to rely on their inexperienced opinions to determine your defense, well good for you.

Who is relying on inexperienced opinions? Is 30 years jujitsu inexperienced to you?

He got hit with an elbow going in once. It hurt him bad enough to remember it. He said the guy dropped the elbow just right, and it dropped him. Now, he loves to fight, loves to roll, and he's one of the last people I'd want to really fight.

But, hey, if your experience tells you to dismiss elbows as you go in, good luck with it. No need on my part to argue this effectiveness scale- I don't buy your opinion that a technique simply is or isn't effective or high or low on your silly scale. The effectiveness of techniques are completely context specific. You don't seem to get that. You only consider examples where they don't work and dismiss the ones where they do.:p What excuses do you have when someone makes a low percentage effective technique work on you?

[The Willow Sword]

What is really a bunch of hors3sh!1 are the MA fantasy boys who pretend to fight with more lethal techniques, but spend their training time pulling their techniques because they are "too deadly".

I totally agree. i never fell in to that trap of thinking that anything that i was learning was going to instantly kill someone. I DID know that a good deal of what i was learning would be effective in a survival situation, not a controlled tournament with bright lights and drunk white trash watching.


Yes, training in the TMA fantasy world of pretend hitting and pulling strikes to "lethal" targets is somehow more real.

No actually it isnt more real, its way more real that you will ever REALize. The realness of TMA goes far beyond any reality that is considered real. Why just the other day i was noticing how real it was to build up the chi blast in my ballsak and channel it from there:rolleyes:

Peace, TWS

[Knifefighter]

The effectiveness of techniques are completely context specific.

That's exactly what I was saying.

Elbows to the back of the head when defending a leg takedown = low percentage in that context.

Elbows to the back of the head from back mount = high percentage in that context.



What excuses do you have when someone makes a low percentage effective technique work on you?

Hey, anything can happen occasionally. Even if I cross the street at a corner with a green light and look beforehand, there is still a slight chance I might get run over by a bus... not too likely, though

If you want to spend your time working low percentage moves, "well good for you".

I'll stick to the higher percentage ones.

[Black Jack II]

It seem's like there may be a clarity issue in what some call low percentage and high percentage techinques between tcma and mma. Not all "high percentage" techniques should really fall into that general category.

If a traditional martial art or combative sport technique has to rely on a high degree of athleticism and constant practice or it will lose effectiveness rapidly without a certain kind of maintenance.... an example would be high kicking or techniques that may require some kind of weight class equity to be effective then it should not fall into the high percentage category for normal folks.

Self defense skills must be attainable by the average person in a reasonable amount of time. IMO this exludes a bit on both sides. I believe skills are much more attainable on the sports combative side than traditional cma but when all weighed equal but both have issues.

[Knifefighter]

If a traditional martial art or combative sport technique has to rely on a high degree of athleticism and constant practice or it will lose effectiveness rapidly without a certain kind of maintenance....

Unarmed fighting and/or self-defense are relatively high intensity physical activities and, as such, depend on physical attributes and practice.

Weapons are much more applicable in self-defense situations for people who can't practice much or are weak and out of shape.

[Ford Prefect]

Ninjas will make posts that meaningfully blind you and steal your shoes and maybe even your soul!

Really though...
After watching Crocop and Rampage systematically dismantle their opponents in UFC... My faith in UFC in terms of technicality and not brutes punching each other in a half drunken fashion has been shaken.
Pride seems to house more skilled fighters, and less steroids.

They both fought cans for the most part. How did Heath do again?

Pride has more steroids as well. As for fighters, Pride usually paid more, so obviously they attracted better talent. Guess that's not so anymore.

[Knifefighter]

Just watched the fight.

I've watched a lot of Renzo's and others' vale tudo fights in Brazil where fights would never be stopped for knees.

Methinks he was playing to the rules.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. He had many, many opportunities to knee Shamrock's head from side control, but the rules did not allow him to do that.

If he is going to follow the rules, he absolutely should take advantage of them when his opponent moves outside the rule book.

[Black Jack II]

Unarmed fighting and/or self-defense are relatively high intensity physical activities and, as such, depend on physical attributes and practice

Dude, anything requires physical attributes to use, me typing this down now requires a physical attribute. As for practice, there are a whole world of people that have engaged in unarmed fighting without any practice and came out on top of the situation. Practice is one of those words that may mean something different to every guy on this thread.

In my view, to be "high percentage" ,a technique has to be applicable to the kind of situations most likely encountered in real assaults. For example, if most every time somebody has tried to attack you and it's started with either a wild swinging right hand round house, tackle or a shove. Given a limited amount of time and money to spend on training and lets say for the sake of an example a embarrassingly low level of athletic talent, would it not be in your best interests to develop responses to that sort of thing, rather than spending a great deal of effort on reacting to a jump spinning kick or learning how to defend against a keylock?

To me, "high percentage" means being able to remeber and perform these skills under a certain level of stress, something based on natural body movements which don't require a bizzare foundational support structure, and actually depend on hitting the other guy really hard for their efficacy and not something out of a dim mak comic book ad.

As for weapon, I have always been a advocate of proper tools in that context, you would not ever find me without them.

[Knifefighter]

Black Jack-

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

The only thing that I would add is that practice and athleticism make every technique higher percentage than it would be without them.

Practice and athleticism are the only things that make the low percentage moves low percentage rather than zero percentage.

[Black Jack II]

The only thing that I would add is that practice and athleticism make every technique higher percentage than it would be without them

God yes. I can't agree more with that. I am just applying what we agree on to a smaller or actually if you look at it, a larger scale for the regular folks. I would also like to add that what is so great about combative sports, such as mma, boxing, kickboxing, modern judo and so forth is the mental drive to win they create in the player.

There is a reason a number of military groups have there recruits box a little in training. It's not for the technique so much but for the attitude of aggression and drive it fosters. All the bashers keep looking at the stupid rules of mma, and saying, oh my technique is to deadly so you would never understand, but what they seem to be missing is the psychological bonus one can get from training that way.

[WinterPalm]

Yes, training in the TMA fantasy world of pretend hitting and pulling strikes to "lethal" targets is somehow more real. 4:rolleyes:

LOL, just like BJJ fanboys that pull their armbars before breaking arms, or before stopping the flow of blood to the brain and causing brain damage...

[SevenStar]

LOL, just like BJJ fanboys that pull their armbars before breaking arms, or before stopping the flow of blood to the brain and causing brain damage...

the difference there is that even though it's pulled, it's applied. I still choke you till either you are unconscious or you tap; I still lock your arm until you tap. I apply it. unless I'm wearing goggles, you can't gouge.without losta padding, it's dangerous to try and punch the throat, throw knees to the head while on the ground, etc. you can't apply those techniques real time in any truly realistic manner.

[Knifefighter]

LOL, just like BJJ fanboys that pull their armbars before breaking arms, or before stopping the flow of blood to the brain and causing brain damage...

Nope... not just like at all. These are all applied at full force until the opponent taps.

[gabe]

That's exactly what I was saying.

Elbows to the back of the head when defending a leg takedown = low percentage in that context.

Elbows to the back of the head from back mount = high percentage in that context.




Hey, anything can happen occasionally. Even if I cross the street at a corner with a green light and look beforehand, there is still a slight chance I might get run over by a bus... not too likely, though

If you want to spend your time working low percentage moves, "well good for you".

I'll stick to the higher percentage ones.
I don't think any of you can tell my friend he doesn't know how to shoot properly. He just got caught. Unlike you, he doesn't attempt to describe it as a freak accident. It was a good fighter who knew what he was doing who stopped him. Low or high percentage is relative to the one applying it. I believe he had a muay thai background and was excellent all around with elbows. Now my friend adjusted his approach to shoots as a result , instead of dismissing it as something so low percentage that it would never happen. It did. What is low or high percentage depends on execution. Execution depends on training. Facing someone who actually works those techniques hard changed his views of low or high percentage. People's understanding of what works and what doesn't has changed over the years as you should know.

[Knifefighter]

I don't think any of you can tell my friend he doesn't know how to shoot properly.
What is his grappling/striking background?

[SevenStar]

I don't think any of you can tell my friend he doesn't know how to shoot properly. He just got caught. Unlike you, he doesn't attempt to describe it as a freak accident. It was a good fighter who knew what he was doing who stopped him. Low or high percentage is relative to the one applying it. I believe he had a muay thai background and was excellent all around with elbows. Now my friend adjusted his approach to shoots as a result , instead of dismissing it as something so low percentage that it would never happen. It did. What is low or high percentage depends on execution. Execution depends on training. Facing someone who actually works those techniques hard changed his views of low or high percentage. People's understanding of what works and what doesn't has changed over the years as you should know.

execution or no, a jab is more likely to land than a jump roundhouse. some things are just easier to land. that's not to say that one day I won't run across someone who is great with a jump roundhouse, but what are the chances? in the ring, you will usually know, as you are told who you are fighting. a fighter's time would be better spent training defenses against more common attacks than against lesser used, less likely to land techniques.

what EXACTLY did your friend say? did the guy sprawl or anything first? what distance was he started the shot?

[Oso]

good lord...i thought we'd seen the last of these arguments...guess it's been awhile...

7* why can't we make a sticky of MP's last cogent post on the subject under the title of "If you think you want to talk about the MMA vs. TMA read this and if you're still stupid enough to argue the point you'll be banned"


To me, the MMA/CMA argument is a pointless one. It doesn't actually mean anything. The real issue is training. If you are training hard, and suit up and beat on each other on a regular frequent basis, you're probably going to be effective.


I am Bannninatorio, I need TCM'ers for my bunghole...

ok, that was silly and didn't even really rhyme...guess that means it's time for bed.

[SevenStar]

I thought it was great just cuz it was a reference to beavis

[Oso]

does that mean you'll create a sticky and send all mma vs. tma threads there???????

[MasterKiller]

that's not to say that one day I won't run across someone who is great with a jump roundhouse, but what are the chances?

*cough*Louisseau*cough*

[gabe]

execution or no, a jab is more likely to land than a jump roundhouse. some things are just easier to land. that's not to say that one day I won't run across someone who is great with a jump roundhouse, but what are the chances? in the ring, you will usually know, as you are told who you are fighting. a fighter's time would be better spent training defenses against more common attacks than against lesser used, less likely to land techniques.

what EXACTLY did your friend say? did the guy sprawl or anything first? what distance was he started the shot?

None of that first part of your post is really relevent. You use what works at the time, hoping to end it as quickly as possible. If he can execute a jump roundhouse, he has a better chance of ending the fight than with a jab. If he practices that, it's part of his arsenal and what is low percentage for most people ain't necessarily low for him. What is low or high percentage, silly terms imo, is not only context specific but individual specific. With real practice, low becomes higher. Of course some things are low percentage for people- they don't practice it.

Secondly, they didn't spar in a ring. It was just a friendly match. So all "illegal" techniques banned in the ring were game to the extent no one gets seriously injured. We've all gotten headbutted before. So, no, we never know what to expect. That's a bad mindset imo. If you excel in the ring, your expectations have to be different than mine. He is never ever comfortable in any position where he could get headbutted- the few times we watched mma fights together, I remember him saying- "jeez, could have been headbutted there!" over and over.

All he told me was that he did what he normally does. Worked the guy up top, got him to lift his guard up, saw an opening and shot in and got nailed. Believe me, he is very good at his timing. He usually has no problem taking people down. In this case, no sprawl was involved. The elbow came before he could get control. And it really hurt. Nothing mystical about it. Just good execution on the part of the other guy. Also, he tapped out that guy a few times that day.

He is a Jujitsu lover. As far as his striking, he cross trains so much I wouldn't know what to categorize him as.

Anyway, can't add more. I wasn't there. Also, I didn't even see the shamrock fight so I don't want to hijack it.

[WinterPalm]

Nope... not just like at all. These are all applied at full force until the opponent taps.

And my throat and eye shots are applied at full force until the point of contact...I know that if it carried through, based on my abilities, and the nature of human tissue, that a lot of damage would occur. Just like you know that if you carried through with your arm bar or choke, the limb would break (maybe), and the person would pass out.

[SevenStar]

*cough*Louisseau*cough*

I actually thought about him when I posted that. How many others can you name?

[SevenStar]

None of that first part of your post is really relevent. You use what works at the time, hoping to end it as quickly as possible. If he can execute a jump roundhouse, he has a better chance of ending the fight than with a jab. If he practices that, it's part of his arsenal and what is low percentage for most people ain't necessarily low for him. What is low or high percentage, silly terms imo, is not only context specific but individual specific. With real practice, low becomes higher. Of course some things are low percentage for people- they don't practice it.

regardless of how much he practices it, he doesn't have as much of a chance. How often to you see thai boxers land flying knees as opposed to skinp knees or roundhouses? Louisseau ended a fight with a jump spinning back kick and was an avid tkd guy before going mma. In that same fight though, he missed his first couple of attempts, and missed his jump roundhouse. Why? It's not secret that some things tend to be more successful than others. Such is the natrue of the human body. a jab is a lot less likely to telegraph than a jump spinning back kick, period.


Secondly, they didn't spar in a ring. It was just a friendly match. So all "illegal" techniques banned in the ring were game to the extent no one gets seriously injured. We've all gotten headbutted before. So, no, we never know what to expect. That's a bad mindset imo. If you excel in the ring, your expectations have to be different than mine. He is never ever comfortable in any position where he could get headbutted- the few times we watched mma fights together, I remember him saying- "jeez, could have been headbutted there!" over and over.

1. I didn't ask if they sparred in a ring - I had already assumed it was a friendly match.

2. the fact that is was friendly denotes that they weren't going all out.

No, you never know what to expect. I actually expect headbutts though. In the in-fighting game, though illegal, they can be pretty common due to accidents and due to the fact that you can do them without getting caught. I see what you're saying, but from a fighting perspective, that's kinda silly. I'm not gonna waste time training defense against a jump spinning kick, for example, when that time is better spent working defense against knees, crosses, etc.


All he told me was that he did what he normally does. Worked the guy up top, got him to lift his guard up, saw an opening and shot in and got nailed. Believe me, he is very good at his timing. He usually has no problem taking people down. In this case, no sprawl was involved. The elbow came before he could get control. And it really hurt. Nothing mystical about it. Just good execution on the part of the other guy. Also, he tapped out that guy a few times that day.

you mentioned it was a friendly match. Ask him if it was real, would he have been stopped by it, or could he have continued through. he probably could have continued, but since it was friendly was like "Hey, good shot."

[Knifefighter]

And my throat and eye shots are applied at full force until the point of contact...

No... you apply them at full speed, not full force.

Huge difference- full force requires encountering resistance (hitting something in the case of striking or working against the opponent in the case of grappling) which is the key to being able to make them work.

I could apply my locks and chokes all day long without a resisting opponent (or just hitting the air in your case) and it wouldn't do a bit of good in terms of application.

[PangQuan]

you need speed, for a throat shot, but you need force also.

the moment of contact you will need to apply burst of force to ensure damage, as the opponent will most likely be moving, so speed simply is not enough. if you dont use any force and your opponent realizes whats going on and begins to move away from you, its worthless.

it is striking.

just a slight differnce in form of hand (ie: leapord, crane, etc...), but the same principles apply.

[gabe]

regardless of how much he practices it, he doesn't have as much of a chance. How often to you see thai boxers land flying knees as opposed to skinp knees or roundhouses? Louisseau ended a fight with a jump spinning back kick and was an avid tkd guy before going mma. In that same fight though, he missed his first couple of attempts, and missed his jump roundhouse. Why? It's not secret that some things tend to be more successful than others. Such is the natrue of the human body. a jab is a lot less likely to telegraph than a jump spinning back kick, period.



1. I didn't ask if they sparred in a ring - I had already assumed it was a friendly match.



No, you never know what to expect. I actually expect headbutts though. In the in-fighting game, though illegal, they can be pretty common due to accidents and due to the fact that you can do them without getting caught. I see what you're saying, but from a fighting perspective, that's kinda silly. I'm not gonna waste time training defense against a jump spinning kick, for example, when that time is better spent working defense against knees, crosses, etc.



you mentioned it was a friendly match. Ask him if it was real, would he have been stopped by it, or could he have continued through. he probably could have continued, but since it was friendly was like "Hey, good shot."

You brought up the jump roundhouse, not me. You don't seem to be able to follow the conversation. Low percentage or high percentage is context dependent, yet you keep trying to generalize to overall blanket statements. In some cases, jabs are appropriate. But not very high percentage at certain ranges, correct? The analysis is completely dependent on that split second of time you have to execute and your ability to follow through. Not on what happens over three rounds. And addressing something you call "low percentage" does not mean ignoring your so-called high percentage techniques.

You mentioned the ring, not me. My point was he didn't know what to expect because of that reason. If you knew it wasn't in the ring, why bring it up?

Secondly, you have no basis to judge if they were going all out simply because it was friendly. They are competitors, don't like to lose, have a poor understanding of pain, and spar hard. As demonstrated with that elbow drop. Yes, people can fight through a lot of stuff, groin kicks, headbutts, etc. But that second it stops you can be fatal. That elbow set him up for serious injury if the opponent were to keep going with no ref to stop it. You can either dismiss it as freak accident, bet that you will be able to fight through it, or adjust accordingly to prevent something that powerful from getting to you again. Such analysis goes beyond- "Aaah, he'll never pull that one off on me" or "nobody does that kind of thing."

Call it low %, call it high. It happened. He got caught. It really hurt.

[SevenStar]

You brought up the jump roundhouse, not me. You don't seem to be able to follow the conversation. Low percentage or high percentage is context dependent, yet you keep trying to generalize to overall blanket statements. In some cases, jabs are appropriate. But not very high percentage at certain ranges, correct? The analysis is completely dependent on that split second of time you have to execute and your ability to follow through. Not on what happens over three rounds. And addressing something you call "low percentage" does not mean ignoring your so-called high percentage techniques.

You mentioned the ring, not me. My point was he didn't know what to expect because of that reason. If you knew it wasn't in the ring, why bring it up?

I wasn't referring to the ring in terms of your friend, read what I said. I said when you ARE fighting in the ring, you are told ahead of time who your opponent is. It was used to point out why exactly it would be a waste of time to train low % techniques and defenses - you have time to study your opponent, and you know what his usual tactics are. THAT is what you train to defeat. I don't think low or high % is that context dependent.

there is only one range to use the jab, really. No fighter worth his salt will jab from beyond range, unless he's trying to feint, and even then the feint is more believable when done from punching range.

you are correct in saying that training a low % technique doesn't mean you have to ignore the high % ones. however, you are taking away training time that can be used for the high %, which is what I have been saying.


Secondly, you have no basis to judge if they were going all out simply because it was friendly. They are competitors, don't like to lose, have a poor understanding of pain, and spar hard. As demonstrated with that elbow drop.

doesn't matter if if was hard - it was still friendly. I spar hard, but it's never at the intensity that it is in competition or at work.

[gabe]

I wasn't referring to the ring in terms of your friend, read what I said. I said when you ARE fighting in the ring, you are told ahead of time who your opponent is. It was used to point out why exactly it would be a waste of time to train low % techniques and defenses - you have time to study your opponent, and you know what his usual tactics are. THAT is what you train to defeat. I don't think low or high % is that context dependent.

there is only one range to use the jab, really. No fighter worth his salt will jab from beyond range, unless he's trying to feint, and even then the feint is more believable when done from punching range.

you are correct in saying that training a low % technique doesn't mean you have to ignore the high % ones. however, you are taking away training time that can be used for the high %, which is what I have been saying.



doesn't matter if if was hard - it was still friendly. I spar hard, but it's never at the intensity that it is in competition or at work.


You went from saying low or high% is not very context dependent to explaining how the effectiveness of jabs is completely context dependent. LOL. Bringing up a jumping roundhouse kick when talking about jabs is senseless- it was a silly way to try to prove your low vs. high percentage theories. Thereare many things that work well within jab range besides a jab- what you decide to use depends on what you train which determines what is low or high percentage. Can you pull it off. Can he stop you. Was it the right time. That determines what works. Not these hindsight blanket labels.

Your ring discussion is still pointless. You train to fight people you know and studied beforehand, we train to fight people we don't know. Suit yourself.

Ignoring high percentage techniques is stupid as we both agree. We just don't agree about ignoring so-called low percentage technique. My friend got caught with one. He won't ignore it in the future. You are aguing that he is wasting his time. Suit yourself.

By friendly, I mean off the street. They don't hate each other. In competition, you have rules and a fear of disqualification as well as a ref to stop it when necessary. Outside, you don't have any of those things unless you want to. You can't judge how hard they spar unless you've sparred them. Nobody here goes "all out" in any competition or sparring, only in real fights on the street. Otherwise, there is always some level of restraint.

If you are trying to argue that if they were going "all out, " the elbow would have been ineffective to stop him- pure speculation. The pain coupled with him stopping momentarily is all it takes to lose a fight. All it takes is one second of hesitation for another fighter to end it on you. If you encourage your fighters to take certain shots betting that it won't phase them- I feel sorry for them. "don't worry bud, you'll be able to fight through it!":rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

You went from saying low or high% is not very context dependent to explaining how the effectiveness of jabs is completely context dependent. LOL.

No. I stated that the jab only has one range. no competent fighter would use it outside of this range. If that is context related, I am missing it.



Bringing up a jumping roundhouse kick when talking about jabs is senseless- it was a silly way to try to prove your low vs. high percentage theories. Thereare many things that work well within jab range besides a jab- what you decide to use depends on what you train which determines what is low or high percentage. Can you pull it off. Can he stop you. Was it the right time. That determines what works. Not these hindsight blanket labels.

it's not a way to prove - it's a comparison. But that's cool - compare a jump rounhouse and a regular roundhouse - same range, regular roundhouse has a better chance. compare a jab to the face and a half knuckle to the throat. same range, jab is more likely to land. I know you see the point I'm making, you're nitpicking.


Your ring discussion is still pointless. You train to fight people you know and studied beforehand, we train to fight people we don't know. Suit yourself.

we train for an inevitability, you train for a possibility. we train for fights we know we will have (in the case of competitors) where as you train for an opponent you may never even come against. That alone can have differing effects on training, but that's a different thread.


Ignoring high percentage techniques is stupid as we both agree. We just don't agree about ignoring so-called low percentage technique. My friend got caught with one. He won't ignore it in the future. You are aguing that he is wasting his time. Suit yourself.

yeah, we agree to disagree on that one.


By friendly, I mean off the street. They don't hate each other. In competition, you have rules and a fear of disqualification as well as a ref to stop it when necessary. Outside, you don't have any of those things unless you want to. You can't judge how hard they spar unless you've sparred them. Nobody here goes "all out" in any competition or sparring, only in real fights on the street. Otherwise, there is always some level of restraint.

when you are in a ring, you are going for a KO. when you are in the street you are fighting to survive. friendly sparring is less intense than that. I don't have to have sparred either of them to know that. if it is a friendly match, they don't want to KO or kill eachother - they are training. I disagree that nobody here goes all out in competition. from a strength and speed perspecitve - trying to down your opponent, yes, you go all out. I guess from some people's "street lethal" perspective you do not, as you aren't trying to kill eachother.


If you are trying to argue that if they were going "all out, " the elbow would have been ineffective to stop him- pure speculation. The pain coupled with him stopping momentarily is all it takes to lose a fight. All it takes is one second of hesitation for another fighter to end it on you. If you encourage your fighters to take certain shots betting that it won't phase them- I feel sorry for them. "don't worry bud, you'll be able to fight through it!":rolleyes:

you are right - it is speculation, based off of my experience. That is why I am asking you more specific questions about his account. I want to know how he felt about it. The pain coupled with him stopping - that is indeed enough to end a fight, assuming he stops and assuming the pain is great enough to make him stop. IME, in this situation, that's unlikely. As for your final sentence, I guess that is a mindset difference between you and I. I will not say "don't go for the shoot, because he might drop an elbow that might have some effect" I'm gonna tell him to commit to it. that it a fighter's mindset. it's that committment that gets you in deep enough to remove all doubt that strikes will be ineffective.

[WinterPalm]

No... you apply them at full speed, not full force.

Huge difference- full force requires encountering resistance (hitting something in the case of striking or working against the opponent in the case of grappling) which is the key to being able to make them work.

I could apply my locks and chokes all day long without a resisting opponent (or just hitting the air in your case) and it wouldn't do a bit of good in terms of application.

But you see that is where you are still wrong although you are right about training the locks and chokes. I still have to get by his defenses, his counters, his parries, his shoots, and everything else. I'm not saying it is some magic wand here, but it is something that is applied with force, because he is resisting, and then it is pulled at the end...just like armbar is pulled at the end. You never really encounter resistance in striking, unless they clinch or otherwise grab you. Maybe I was off on the technical terminology but it is still very similar.
I know that if I didn't pull that technique, there's a very good chance it would mess him up. Much like you know that if you didn't pull your technique it would probably bust his arm. Both of those can and cannot be fight stoppers.

[gabe]

"No. I stated that the jab only has one range. no competent fighter would use it outside of this range. If that is context related, I am missing it"

That is completely context related. The range is the context.

As far as that comparison of kick to jab- yes- that is completely senseless. What has a higher probability of landing is dependent on your ability. Are you telling me that elbows from that muay thai guy has the same probability of landing as you or me? The answer is no. It is not a low percentage technique for him.

Which fight was it that ended with a flying knee kick. Had he kicked the guy with his foot, it would have been faster given the distance and just as strong. But, no, he came all the way in jumping with his knee at which point he could have used his arms as well and stayed on his feet. He knocked him out. Who are we to say that was a stupid move given all the other options he had? He executed.

"we train for an inevitability, you train for a possibility. we train for fights we know we will have (in the case of competitors) where as you train for an opponent you may never even come against. That alone can have differing effects on training, but that's a different thread."

No, we train based on what we have come against. We don't ignore what we expect to come against but we adapt based on our experiences instead of ignoring them. If you stay in your circle of sport, yes , it is unlikely to face people outside that generic fighting method. Suit yourself. We love people who we have no idea what they have to offer. They force us to think outside the box.

As far as sparring, KO's are just fine. When we box, hell, that's all we try to do is KO each other. Those two I mention are not regular sparring partners, they got together and tried each other out. If one of them could have KO'd the other, I don't doubt they would have knowing them. Yes, you speculate on your experience but they aren't part of it.

And to clarify, I never said don't go for the shoot. Sure, commit or else it don't work. Of course. But my friend would say try to be mindful of the elbow by doing xyz His execution his setup, his approach changed...Again, don't tell me he doesn't understand a shoot or is scared to use it. It's his bread and butter.

A fighter's mindset is not to be stupid. My old boxing coach was adamant about not exposing yourself to that KO, and that was his teaching paradigm. He said all it takes is one punch. He hated those boxers willing to take punches. That is how my friend sees it as well. A real fighter understands that one mistake is all it takes.

[SevenStar]

As far as that comparison of kick to jab- yes- that is completely senseless. What has a higher probability of landing is dependent on your ability. Are you telling me that elbows from that muay thai guy has the same probability of landing as you or me? The answer is no. It is not a low percentage technique for him.

I am a muay thai guy. I see your point though. and it would depend on the elbow being thrown. a cross or diagonal have a better chance than a spinning and possibly a stabbing. There are several different elbow strikes - directional, jumping, spinning, etc and some have a better chance of landing than others, yes.


Which fight was it that ended with a flying knee kick. Had he kicked the guy with his foot, it would have been faster given the distance and just as strong. But, no, he came all the way in jumping with his knee at which point he could have used his arms as well and stayed on his feet. He knocked him out. Who are we to say that was a stupid move given all the other options he had? He executed.

I wouldn't consider a flying knee stupid. And as has been stated, anything has a chance of landing. but natrually, you can't train to defend everything - there isn't enough time. this is where principles come in. strikes come along similar angles, train against the more common strikes, but others have similar angles, so they shouldn't be foreign to you anyway.



No, we train based on what we have come against. We don't ignore what we expect to come against but we adapt based on our experiences instead of ignoring them. If you stay in your circle of sport, yes , it is unlikely to face people outside that generic fighting method. Suit yourself. We love people who we have no idea what they have to offer. They force us to think outside the box.

you train based on the attacker you may encounter in the street, bar, etc. - it's no secret that many people who train will never even be in an encounter in their adult lives. Granted, this training may be based on someone else's past experience, but this still is training for an attacker that you may never actually face yourself. crime statistics can show that. I'm not in a circle of sport, I am a bouncer in a club, so I deal with all types of people on a regularly basis. sporst techniques, training and mindset have not failed me thus far.



As far as sparring, KO's are just fine. When we box, hell, that's all we try to do is KO each other.

that's new to me. pro fighters don't even try to KO eachother while sparring, IME. that's why it's called training. you KO someone and a doc will tell them not to spar for several weeks. If they have a fight coming up, this is detrimental to them. Even if they don't have a fight coming up, if they spar too soon after the KO, complications can arise if there are multiple concussions sustained.


And to clarify, I never said don't go for the shoot. Sure, commit or else it don't work. Of course. But my friend would say try to be mindful of the elbow by doing xyz His execution his setup, his approach changed...Again, don't tell me he doesn't understand a shoot or is scared to use it. It's his bread and butter.

I'm not talking about his shoot - I'm talking about your last post regarding it. However, what you just posted, I don't disagree with. I still would love to hear his account of it. I REALLY want to know.


A fighter's mindset is not to be stupid. My old boxing coach was adamant about not exposing yourself to that KO, and that was his teaching paradigm. He said all it takes is one punch. He hated those boxers willing to take punches. That is how my friend sees it as well. A real fighter understands that one mistake is all it takes.

this I don't disagree with either. committing to the shot is not to expose yourself to it - this is part of why I want to hear his account. A shoot is done from in close. I want to hear what he has to say about this elbow that would've stopped him from that close range.

[Black Jack II]

It is not a low percentage technique for him.

Thats because elbows are a gross motor movement and fall into a high percentage technique for almost anyone.

[Knifefighter]

But you see that is where you are still wrong although you are right about training the locks and chokes. I still have to get by his defenses, his counters, his parries, his shoots, and everything else. I'm not saying it is some magic wand here, but it is something that is applied with force, because he is resisting, and then it is pulled at the end...just like armbar is pulled at the end. You never really encounter resistance in striking, unless they clinch or otherwise grab you. Maybe I was off on the technical terminology but it is still very similar.
I know that if I didn't pull that technique, there's a very good chance it would mess him up. Much like you know that if you didn't pull your technique it would probably bust his arm. Both of those can and cannot be fight stoppers.

That's exactly the reasoning behind why the "too deadly for full contact" guy get creamed every time they go against someone who trains with full resistance.

One of the problems with this approach is that you don't get used to taking hard hits. Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

[SenseiShellie]

REALLY!?

I don't think he was "playing it" at all. Renzo is a true warrior. The guy is tough. He's had his arm snapped in competition before and gave the ref a hard time for stopping the fight!

I've even heard a story where he was stabbed through the fence at a competition before.

He tried to stand up after the knees and his legs were so wobbley he couldn't stand.

He refused the neck collar and the stretcher. If he could have continued, there's no doubt that he would have.

The Gracies are a very proud family. I don't think he was "playing it" at all.

I don't think he was either...in fact, I saw him go out after the first knee. It was a flash ko. Herb Dean warned Shamrock in the first round I believe. In the 2nd round, he took away a point. Shamrock loaded those knees up on the fence and threw them. Did he mean to? Sure...it's a fight! However, did he want to get DQ'ed? No way. He wanted the KO...that's all. They are both awesome warriors and wanted to win. I think that Herb Dean followed the rules set forth by Elite XC and did what he had to do. He discussed it with people before renderring the decision. No use crying over spilled milk. It happened...now, let's wait for the rematch. It may turn out differently...if it does, cool. Then there's a rubber match if Shamrock wins. That would be cool...

[Knifefighter]

I don't think he was either...in fact, I saw him go out after the first knee.

I didn't see him go out until he saw the referee looking and starting to come in.

[PangQuan]

Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

word up............

[WinterPalm]

That's exactly the reasoning behind why the "too deadly for full contact" guy get creamed every time they go against someone who trains with full resistance.

One of the problems with this approach is that you don't get used to taking hard hits. Taking hits is probably 75% of what will make one successful if he ever has to go against some one who is somewhat skilled or more athletic or bigger and stronger.

Ah, but we do not just train in things like this. This is more situational self-defense based application. We also spar at a high and painful level of contact regularily taking shots all over the place (punches, kicks, throws, trips, etc) all on a cement floor, which is very painful when we incorporate takedowns.
There is no resistance if I do what I do properly...that said, I agree that one needs to know how to take a hit and should train at a high level of intensity and contact on a regular basis.

[wind draft]

what a bunch of whinners!!! Shamrocks rocks!! He knocked the mutha out...who cares...If renzo did the same, then thats great it doesn't matter who did what. It's pure entertaining and way better than most martial art fighting tournament i've seen so who cares..

Didn't you guys all enjoy the action? okay then...

It's funny people always do this.. oh look mma is not cool, too many rules, then exciting fighting like this people complain, oh look he cheated; unsportsman....this same group of people also say kung fu won't work in fighting.. and blah blah blah about bbj and how kung fu guys always get taken to the ground. well what shamrock is called kung fu to the head.. haha!!

wow people get a life!! haha!!! stop wasting time typing and reading.. maybe go practice!! lol

[Knifefighter]

Ah, but we do not just train in things like this. This is more situational self-defense based application. We also spar at a high and painful level of contact regularily taking shots all over the place (punches, kicks, throws, trips, etc) all on a cement floor, which is very painful when we incorporate takedowns.
There is no resistance if I do what I do properly...that said, I agree that one needs to know how to take a hit and should train at a high level of intensity and contact on a regular basis.

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

[wind draft]

good job winterpalm

[Knifefighter]

good job winterpalm

Yeah, good job in pretend training.

[WinterPalm]

Yeah, good job in pretend training.

LOL!

So let me get this straight. The guy that takes bareknuckle hits if he fails to block them, the guy that lands on a hard surface if he gets taken down or thrown, who regularily takes hard shin kicks with no padding, has had numerous dents in his shins, has been unable to move various things because they've been otherwise hit, slammed, jarred, or jammed is the one doing pretend training?

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

Sorry but when I get into a fight in the street there is a hard surface. If you train properly, and evidently you don't, you learn how to minimalize the impact of hitting the ground. I don't need soft pads to learn how to throw or be thrown.

How the hell am I the one not training in reality? No pads, no mouthguard, no fancy soft mats...that sounds like reality to me.

[WinterPalm]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I train with the utmost urgency to deal with what an assailant is going to try and do to me because it will occur with no protection, just my flesh and whatever they bring. Fortunately my Sifu has me training in methods that minimalize the potential for injury when dealing with things such as no protective equipment and no soft surfaces to land on. We do, however, often spar with gloves to mix it up in a different way.

Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

[Knifefighter]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I train with the utmost urgency to deal with what an assailant is going to try and do to me because it will occur with no protection, just my flesh and whatever they bring. Fortunately my Sifu has me training in methods that minimalize the potential for injury when dealing with things such as no protective equipment and no soft surfaces to land on. We do, however, often spar with gloves to mix it up in a different way.

Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

Without mats, you can never learn how to fight on the ground because you can't spend enough time there to get good. Same with throwing and takedowns.

By hitting with no protection, you can never learn to hit with full force.

This type of "hardcore" kung fu is anything but, and is exactly the reason that these type of practitioners get smoked just about every time they fight the "sport" oriented fighters.

Judo proved this years ago when Kano's fighters openly accepted challenges from Jujutsu stylists. Being able to practice "safe" techniques at 100% is much more effective than practicing deadly techniques without being able to spar at 100% because you are training on surfaces that are "awful" to land on and are throwing strikes to lethal areas that are too dangerous to hit at 100%. BJJ has demonstated this again and again over the last 70 years and it was shown once again the early UFC's.

[WinterPalm]

Although I would agree that it is good to train with mats, which we have done and will do in the future. There is still something to be said about training on real surfaces and learning how to land properly...which you apparently don't know how to do.
The way we train is a mix of reality based training and skill/attribute training. The latter is where we spar with padding, do throws onto mats, etc. The former is where we incorporate situational drills, potential lethal attacks, and other studies of anatomy that lend themselves to seriously hurting someone if you have to. It is worthwhile to train full resistance in drills that are not just sparring but also sneak attacks, grabs, etc.

In terms of Royce Gracie in the early UFC's...I do respect his family's art but there was obviously a very clear element of surprise in that not really anybody had seen what he was doing out side of a bit in Judo. That element of surprise is a very good weapon in any confrontation.

By hitting with no protection, you can never learn to hit with full force.

Even with all the padding in the world I would not want to spar with somebody that is hitting me full force with a wide range of attacks. I seriously doubt any sport fighters do this...I've heard that the Muay Thai guys train in light sparring...and do they throw elbows and face knees full contact?
2nd, when I get into a fight there will not be protection so I do not really need to know how to hit super hard with protection because it is a false sense of my abilities.
Those two combined make for a very unrealistic scenario...being hit full force covered in padding, and learning to hit with protective equipment to minimize my own tissue trauma.

[SevenStar]

LOL!

So let me get this straight. The guy that takes bareknuckle hits if he fails to block them, the guy that lands on a hard surface if he gets taken down or thrown, who regularily takes hard shin kicks with no padding, has had numerous dents in his shins, has been unable to move various things because they've been otherwise hit, slammed, jarred, or jammed is the one doing pretend training?

If you are throwing onto hard floors, you won't really learn how to throw and land very well because you are always having to worry about injuries from landing on a hard surface... same if you are sparring without protective gear.

That is the fatal flaw of the "lethal" techniques approach.

Sorry but when I get into a fight in the street there is a hard surface. If you train properly, and evidently you don't, you learn how to minimalize the impact of hitting the ground. I don't need soft pads to learn how to throw or be thrown.

How the hell am I the one not training in reality? No pads, no mouthguard, no fancy soft mats...that sounds like reality to me.

here's the thing... I would bet my next paycheck that if a person trained judo and did randori several times per week on either hardwood or concrete, they would not have training partners long. Judo already has a high injury rate, and that's on mats. It would multiply exponentially on a hard surface. you would never have training partners, literally. Consequently, when I hear someone say they do throws on hard surfaces, my first thought is that they aren't doing hard throws. My second thought is that if they are doing hard throws, they don't do them very often. And honestly, I would love to see ANYONE do even three weeks of daily, hard randori on a hard surface and report their results.

Same thing with sparring bare knuck. When I trained karate, we sparred that way, but there was no face contact. With face contact allowed, you would incur lots of bruises, which while doable looks bad if you work a professional job. In addition, full contact elbows, knees and hooks to the head with no headgear, just like randori on hard surfaces, would result in a loss of many training partners.

Hard shin kicks with no padding is common.

[SevenStar]

Although I would agree that it is good to train with mats, which we have done and will do in the future. There is still something to be said about training on real surfaces and learning how to land properly...which you apparently don't know how to do.
The way we train is a mix of reality based training and skill/attribute training. The latter is where we spar with padding, do throws onto mats, etc. The former is where we incorporate situational drills, potential lethal attacks, and other studies of anatomy that lend themselves to seriously hurting someone if you have to. It is worthwhile to train full resistance in drills that are not just sparring but also sneak attacks, grabs, etc.

see, that's more of what I figured. It's not 5 minutes of constant throwing, 30 minutes or more per day, several days per week. There's a big difference between that and doing drills, even if you are throwing with a decent amount of force.



Even with all the padding in the world I would not want to spar with somebody that is hitting me full force with a wide range of attacks. I seriously doubt any sport fighters do this...I've heard that the Muay Thai guys train in light sparring...and do they throw elbows and face knees full contact?

it's not uncommon for fighters in thailand to have fights on a weekly basis. If they get hurt in sparring they cannot fight. Naturally, they train lighter, but they fight so often that it doesn't matter much.


2nd, when I get into a fight there will not be protection so I do not really need to know how to hit super hard with protection because it is a false sense of my abilities.

Not really. when you are sparring, common sense tells you to still try and aovid being struck. I always get a laugh from some of the idiotic comments I see here and on other forums to the effect of "with padding, I don't mind being hit, so I am less likely to evade or block." it's just plain stupid for one, and secondly, those who would do that don't really understand the point of what they are doing.

in regards to striking, it's similar. you shouldn't be punching to the forehead just because you can - target placement. you still want to strike the jaw, nose, etc. - places you can safely hit with no padding as well.

[SevenStar]

I think there is a major difference for people that are training for reality and people that are training for a matted training surface. Going to the ground is a serious thing for me because one, it hurts, and two there may be other people around to stomp my head in. If you fight on the ground you should be aware of these and understand that landing on your knees on cement is awful. This teaches you to perform ground related techniques in such a manner that you do not injure yourself too bad.

I had two fights this weekend where I went to the ground. In neither did I get stomped by anyone. In the first one, one of his buddies was talking smack while I was mounted on the guy, but I was postured up and had both of my hands free in case he did try something. He didn't. In the other, I guy tried to take me down and I sprawled out on him. We were outside and his face was slammed into the concrete. I also choked two people out this weekend, one from a standing rear naked and the other was the first ground incident I mentioned. While his buddy was talking, the guy kept trying to bump his hips and bridge and roll me off of him. He ended up turning himself over, and once another bouncer got his friend, I choked the guy out and cuffed him. I performed all of these techniques the exact way we train them in class.

Unless you are doing a throw like drop seionage, why would you be going to your knees? Or are you referring to the way many wrestlers perform a double leg?


Hardcore kung fu is not for everybody but to me it is addressing the most crucial elements of combat without sugarcoating or otherwise dandifying the brutality and stark reality of fighting.

see above.

[WinterPalm]

here's the thing... I would bet my next paycheck that if a person trained judo and did randori several times per week on either hardwood or concrete, they would not have training partners long. Judo already has a high injury rate, and that's on mats. It would multiply exponentially on a hard surface. you would never have training partners, literally. Consequently, when I hear someone say they do throws on hard surfaces, my first thought is that they aren't doing hard throws. My second thought is that if they are doing hard throws, they don't do them very often. And honestly, I would love to see ANYONE do even three weeks of daily, hard randori on a hard surface and report their results.

Same thing with sparring bare knuck. When I trained karate, we sparred that way, but there was no face contact. With face contact allowed, you would incur lots of bruises, which while doable looks bad if you work a professional job. In addition, full contact elbows, knees and hooks to the head with no headgear, just like randori on hard surfaces, would result in a loss of many training partners.

Hard shin kicks with no padding is common.

Although my knowledge of Judo is very limited, I'm sure they trained at some point on hard surfaces. Maybe back in the day...
Any sport that is competitive is going to have injuries and should be trained with all safety precautions in mind.
Obviously we practice the head landing throws slower...even with mats these can be very dangerous. You should still learn to breakfall with legs, hands, rolls, etc. That is a crucial skill. You can do these with or without mats...mats are good for learning, and no mats for reality.
We train with a certain level of control, controlling oneself leads to controlling your opponent, that is a theoretical approach we employ.
Sparring without gloves does include getting hit in the head bare knuck. We do not try to knock each other out but we do get hit in the head with various things. It's something you learn to deal with and if you lose teeth, them's the breaks...maybe next time you will block better! Although I do have insurance so my opinion is skewed...but like pads not making you willing to take hits, having dental insurance does not lend itself to getting your teeth knocked out. That said I like to wear a mouthguard.

Training is training. It is not fighting. There are many things no one trains full contact sparring but that they do in fighting effectively.

[WinterPalm]

see, that's more of what I figured. It's not 5 minutes of constant throwing, 30 minutes or more per day, several days per week. There's a big difference between that and doing drills, even if you are throwing with a decent amount of force.

Without a doubt Judo does provide some of the best executions of throws. We are based on striking to set up throws and takedowns. Different approaches I suppose.


it's not uncommon for fighters in thailand to have fights on a weekly basis. If they get hurt in sparring they cannot fight. Naturally, they train lighter, but they fight so often that it doesn't matter much.

I know that. That's what I was refering to. For myself, I do not know when I am going to have to fight or defend myself. I need to be in shape and healthy ALL the time...not just at the end of my peaking six weeks.

Not really. when you are sparring, common sense tells you to still try and aovid being struck. I always get a laugh from some of the idiotic comments I see here and on other forums to the effect of "with padding, I don't mind being hit, so I am less likely to evade or block." it's just plain stupid for one, and secondly, those who would do that don't really understand the point of what they are doing.

Well if people are saying that when they wear pads they are less likely to block they are silly. The fact remains that being used to getting hit without padding and with padding are two different things that reinforce imaginary abilities. I know that in the right spots with the right amount of force, I will break.

in regards to striking, it's similar. you shouldn't be punching to the forehead just because you can - target placement. you still want to strike the jaw, nose, etc. - places you can safely hit with no padding as well.

In intense sparring it can be difficult to hit a precise target. I believe that is a common arguement against structurally weak target training. That said, hand conditioning and palm strikes are very effective methods of training.

[WinterPalm]

I had two fights this weekend where I went to the ground. In neither did I get stomped by anyone. In the first one, one of his buddies was talking smack while I was mounted on the guy, but I was postured up and had both of my hands free in case he did try something. He didn't. In the other, I guy tried to take me down and I sprawled out on him. We were outside and his face was slammed into the concrete. I also choked two people out this weekend, one from a standing rear naked and the other was the first ground incident I mentioned. While his buddy was talking, the guy kept trying to bump his hips and bridge and roll me off of him. He ended up turning himself over, and once another bouncer got his friend, I choked the guy out and cuffed him. I performed all of these techniques the exact way we train them in class.

Unless you are doing a throw like drop seionage, why would you be going to your knees? Or are you referring to the way many wrestlers perform a double leg?



see above.

You and I train for similar things. We have similar outcomes. This debate will devolve into a style vs. style debate.
I assumed you were a sport fighter.
Likewise, I train against skilled opponents in my school and likewise my opponents on the street will probably be at best, as Sifu says, skilled street fighters. Randy Couture isn't goint to pick a fight with me.
The usage of martial art is to defend yourself on the street and to protect your life. I agree with that...or get paid to do it!
I agree that if one trains properly you can use any type of martial training to protect you. You must make your paradigm and skills work by training them very hard and applying them.

It is fortunate you were not hurt. I have witnessed ground fighting that when the one guy got the mount his buddies came and kicked his head in. The man lost several teeth, broke his nose, and was covered in blood. If you are taken down, get out as fast as possible doing as much damage as you have to and regain a better position. Position is everything...that is crucial to what we do.

[Knifefighter]

You and I train for similar things. We have similar outcomes. I assumed you were a sport fighter.

Could you post some clips of your non-sport fighting training? Maybe that will give us a better idea what you are talking about.