wing chun and internal aspects [Archive]

Xiao3 Meng4

02-12-2007, 09:28 PM

My experience with Qi has led me to explain and describe it as "the relationship between two relative opposites comprising a single whole." In relation to the body, Qi can be looked at as the relationship between structure and movement. The stronger, smoother, and more situationally appropriate this relationship is, the cleaner, smoother, and more visible this relationship will be to an observer, either internal or external. We can all see a Gymnast's Qi. When we compare that Gymnast with other Gymnasts, we can tell who's Qi is more developed.

In combat, situations change quickly. By maintaining a smooth, balanced, situationally appropriate relationship between structure and movement (done through attent and intent, as mentioned above), the effects of Qi again become more manifest to observers. Watching Olympic Boxing or UFC, if the bout goes full time, we can generally tell who won before the judges announce it; again, we can tell who's Qi manifested more cohesively.

So Qi is something that can be developed. We can develop the relationship between our structure and movement, and tune that relationship to respond to changes in the environment. The more we practice, the subtler structures and movements we can integrate together, and the smaller and finer environmental changes we can adapt to.

The best way to develop Qi, according to countless martial arts, is Standing. SLT makes use of standing practice, but other practices such as Zhan Zhuang (post standing) or Ma Zhuang (Horse Standing) offer similar benefits, some would argue more due to the relaxedness and stillness of the arms. I personally think that SLT compensates for its section one movements through slowness. Really, slower is better in section 1 - just don't go slower than your mind. :)

CSP

Hendrik

02-12-2007, 10:56 PM

Hendrik,

After some Qigong, etc...I, along with others can feel the energy.

It takes concentration and a few minutes to start to develop this for myself.

Do you feel that this Qi/energy can be developed to a point where it is instantaneous in combat?

So that in the heat of the moment, when the adrenaline is pumping and I'm fighting the tunnel vision...my energy will just flow?

How does this work for you?

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

Kenton,

IMHO, there are states in the Neigong or internal training. People often doesnt have the reel experience so they could not desribe what is it or how is it. Here, I will share with you what I have heard for your reference. If you are interested in these, you can go to WCK.com read about some of my posts. so I dont have to re type them here.

Thus, I have heard,

There is Qi Kan and Qi Dong. Qi Kan is the sensation of qi surface, say heat, say numnes.. some kind of sensation. This will develop after one training for a while.

Then, there is Qi Dong or the movement power by the flow of qi. NOw, in our body, there are 12 general medirians and another 8 special medirians. Thus, I have heard, when the 8 special medirians are activate. then there are 8 types of body movement or resonance which one will know.

Because these are nature resonance, this is a type of very effective, efficient, and effortless way to manual the physical body.

Thus, with this state, one is be able to use the intention, lead the Qi, let it transport the physical to move in an effective, efficient, and effortless way.
These, I have seen. and it exist in lots of differents style.

For example, the Reel Silk of Chen Taiji, it IMHO is not mimic-ing or using musclular to do the reel. it is using the mind, intend the motion as a spiral, evoke the qi, and the qi transport the body in a resonance way. however, who have attain this state usually will not boast about it and not talk to much because 99% of people will not believe what is happening.

Now, back to SLT, see SLT has narrow stance and small movements, IMHO, this is a "flow" or resonance set, it is not a "root" set. Thus, in order to be able to effectively, efficiently, and effortlessly operate the body, one must activate the 8 special medirians. otherwise, it is impossible to be fully moving or flowing in the "slik" way.

not to mention the WCK short power, see, if one try to mimic short power or generate the short power with muscular, it is always to slow because the time delay between tensing and relaxing is just too long. However, if one using the resonance phenomenon, then, that is a different story.

The above is thus I have heard from the older generation. Yes, this type of cultivation exist and until one attain these as the basic. the SLT/SNT training is practically nearly useless.

However, these days, everyone will say Qi Qi qi but have no idea there are lots of mind, breathing, qi, body interaction in going on within. Thus, we never got it because we are just too surface. we think we know it all but we dont.

as for Zhan Zhaung, that too has key points otherwise one couldnt even get the qi travel up and down ward, thus forget about the other stuffs.

as for using in the combat. that is just an application after one is slik using one's mind, qi, and body. I dont want to elaborate it here because I think before we really got the mechanics, all talk is just talk.

as for what you say, "So that in the heat of the moment, when the adrenaline is pumping and I'm fighting the tunnel vision...my energy will just flow?"

You know, those who knows how to lead qi to transport the body has a characteristics of be able to quiet the mind or stop think with only Awareness is present. That is the first step need to handle qi. So, when your adrenaline is pumping and fighting the tunnel vision.... you are in a chaos state your energy is just spread thin or chaos, that is very different then those who is in silence , quiet the mind, using the intention to summon the qi and body. Thus I have heard.

just some thoughts to share.

Hendrik

02-12-2007, 11:08 PM

IMHO, thus I have heard, if one doesnt activate the 8 special medirians, got the Qi Dong, then one doesnt have it.

because after the 8 special medirians activate. a movement is no longer a movement but natural resonance summond by Intention and power by Qi.

in that state, one dont think. one intent and all happen spontaneously. So, could one stop thinking while practicing SLT/SNT if not then one cant do it.

Can one's SLT did that if not, one is still have not begin.

and thus I have heard, the summon of qi has to based on the handling of deep diaphramatic breathing, spine handling, and sharp intention/will training. it is just not something one stand there and magic happen.

Nope, it is level and level of cultivation and handling before the resonance started.

if you dont believe that, see how many stance in the horse stance training or Zhan Zhuang and how many can even just do the proper breathing? take a count. most people just fantasized and never really has any experience at all. The real thing doesnt have to be explained it is either got it or not.

just some thus I have heard from the older generation.

Xiao3 Meng4

02-13-2007, 12:14 AM

IMHO, thus I have heard, if one doesnt activate the 8 special medirians, got the Qi Dong, then one doesnt have it.

The eight extra meridians need no activation - they do not lie dormant, nor are they vestigial. They are ever-present spheres of influence that guide the body's function both internally and externally. Again, it is the relationship between the meridians that can be developed.

These functions are always present. The beauty of QI GONG is that it allows us to practice and refine the interactions between these spheres of influence. In this particular case, it's the eight extra meridians we're discussing, but the same applies to all meridians of the body.

because after the 8 special medirians activate. a movement is no longer a movement but natural resonance summond by Intention and power by Qi.

in that state, one dont think. one intent and all happen spontaneously. So, could one stop thinking while practicing SLT/SNT if not then one cant do it.

Can one's SLT did that if not, one is still have not begin.

Meridian theory, though helpful in training if used properly (read: simply), is not necessary for the development of Qi. Yes, it has value. No, it's not at ALL useful for beginners imo. Better to focus on posture, flow, and situational awareness/appropriateness for starters, and if a plateau is reached, then Meridians can come into play.

CSP

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 12:57 AM

The eight extra meridians need no activation - they do not lie dormant, nor are they vestigial. They are ever-present spheres of influence that guide the body's function both internally and externally. Again, it is the relationship between the meridians that can be developed.

These functions are always present. The beauty of QI GONG is that it allows us to practice and refine the interactions between these spheres of influence. In this particular case, it's the eight extra meridians we're discussing, but the same applies to all meridians of the body. ------

Nope that is not what I heard from senior.

Meridian theory, though helpful in training if used properly (read: simply), is not necessary for the development of Qi. ------

Thus, I have heard, it is not a theory. it is a natural resonance phenomenon.

again, what you said is oppose of what i heard from the senior. The bottom line I know is that anyone who deal with Qi got to know the medirians because while transpoting qi in the medirians by intention, one strenghten the Qi.

also, in the Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. medirians is in the writing. medirians also is in the Emei 12 zhuang writing.

So, could you please share with us where is your view comes from? what type of internal art you train who is your sifu and what state have you attain?

Yes, it has value. No, it's not at ALL useful for beginners imo. -----

what value? why is not useful for beginners? if the beginners doesnt have these activate there is no Neigong training. Thus I have heard.

Better to focus on posture, flow, and situational awareness/appropriateness for starters, and if a plateau is reached, then Meridians can come into play.-----

what type of posture? what is flow? and what type of situational awarenes? how? why? what is the process? could you please share?

Xiao3 Meng4

02-13-2007, 01:42 AM

Nope that is not what I heard from senior.

and how, pray tell, did you hear it? Did you have to activate your meridians before you were able to sense the vibrations of your senior?

IMO, if you're alive, your meridians are activated. Period. Any work one does with them may very well amplify their efficiency, but they're there and active from day one.

Else you'd be dead.

Thus, I have heard, it is not a theory. it is a natural resonance phenomenon.

again, what you said is oppose of what i heard from the senior. The bottom line I know is that anyone who deal with Qi got to know the medirians because while transpoting qi in the medirians by intention, one strenghten the Qi.

also, in the Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. medirians is in the writing. medirians also is in the Emei 12 zhuang writing.

When I say theory, I don't mean "fabrication" or "possible way things could be." I'm speaking of the entire system of meridians and their described structures and functions. as a whole, I labeled this "Meridian theory."

So, could you please share with us where is your view comes from? what type of internal art you train who is your sifu and what state have you attain?

My views stem primarily from a 4 year diploma in acupuncture, secondarily from 9 years of training divided between Wing Chun, Tai Ji (required course for the acupuncture program), and Zi Ran Men (my favourite!)

If you want a list of my instructors, check my profile.

what STATE have I attained? Hehe, I'm reminded of something one of my instructors said: "Masters are only found in the Yellow pages."

what value? why is not useful for beginners? if the beginners doesnt have these activate there is no Neigong training. Thus I have heard.

Meridians are useful if you know what they are, and what they aren't. Most beginners have a tough time getting a handle on what they KIND OF are, let alone what they REALLY are and what they AREN'T. I'm not saying that meridians shouldn't even be mentioned to beginners, but they really shouldn't be implemented into a student's practice before they actually understand the concept (which can take a heck of a long time!). simple exercises can help with that, and I guess if you want to baby step from there, it's not a problem. There's plenty of stuff to train without knowing meridians, though - Or are you suggesting that a gymnast is violating the laws of dynamics by performing his routine without knowledge of meridians?

what type of posture? what is flow? and what type of situational awarenes? how? why? what is the process? could you please share

When I speak of posture, I speak of classically proper posture. Different cultures have different posture values; I tend to use the Chinese and Swiss posture systems. When I speak of flow, i speak of the smooth interaction between structure and movement - no "gapping" or "shaking" or "spasming," or speeding up or slowing down innapropriately. When I speak of situational awareness, I speak of one's awareness of the situation. Being able to properly resonate with a situation requires situational awareness, no? :) As for the how, it varies. Any competent instructor should be able to give you a variety of "hows" in regards to posture, flow, and awareness. I personally do standing Qi Gong, supine Qi Gong, forms, play practice partner drills, and the basic practice of developing Qi in my life, no matter what I'm doing. :)

I really don't think the why needs answering. To do so would just clutter the thread.

I think I've described the process sufficiently here in this post and the one before. If you want more info, pm me.

CSP

guy b.

02-13-2007, 05:03 AM

ok enough with the qi debate..just tell us all how to do it and we will try. What should we practice before SNT Hendrik and where do we get the info?

leejunfan

02-13-2007, 12:35 PM

Internal?

To me..... and explained by my Sifu (which really drove it home), internal is not some mystical, magical grand poo ba, hocus pocus energy thing where you Ki blast someone from across a room. It is not something that can't be explained scientifically. Internal is IN-ternal... as in... INSIDE your body.... muscle, bone, tendons, vains, nerves and so on. It is the knowledge and skill of how to utilize ones body for maximum results.

We all know that throwing a powerful punch or kick is a matter of body mechanics. THAT is IN-ternal. Having a good YGKYM and being able to redirect energy threw your body and into the earth is IN-ternal.

My Sifu actually conducted a very long talk on this matter from many angles but mainly from anatomy, neurology, physiology (doctor) point of view. The use of anatomical charts and even a full sized skeleton was involved. Like my Sifu always says (and he hates that term "Sifu Said") "Don't argue with me, argue with god."

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 12:35 PM

and how, pray tell, did you hear it?

Did you have to activate your meridians before you were able to sense the vibrations of your senior? ------

That is a possibility.

IMO, if you're alive, your meridians are activated. Period. Any work one does with them may very well amplify their efficiency, but they're there and active from day one.

Else you'd be dead. ---------

Theoretically you are correct.

However, thus, I have heard, as a real human

1, the 12 proper medirians has to rout (sp?) through the internal organs, thus, it is often not smooth or cloak or imbalance.

2, the 8 special medirians might be stuck or not in good flowing shape due to sickness, injury, aging... etc.

Thus, activation means clear and smooth out the path. amplify their efficiency, only will happen after it is activate.

My views stem primarily from a 4 year diploma in acupuncture, secondarily from 9 years of training divided between Wing Chun, Tai Ji (required course for the acupuncture program), and Zi Ran Men (my favourite!)

If you want a list of my instructors, check my profile.

what STATE have I attained? Hehe, I'm reminded of something one of my instructors said: "Masters are only found in the Yellow pages."-------

Thanks for your sharing.

STATE is not a shame. STATE is also not something to boast about. STATE is Naturally Phenomenon. similar to how much food one can take.

IMHO, diploma and trainin doesnt replace STATE of attainment.

One can have 3 weeks of training and Attain the STATE of activate the Ren Du. One can have 1000 diploma and 20 years of training but still working on accumulating STATE.

Now, to talk about Internal art, IMHO, if one doesnt have that STATE or having a Sifu who has attainted the STATE intended to attain. Then, all book learning doesnt means a thing. Because Book learning is mind speculation instead of knowing the real thing.

The bottom line is everyone will be able to read a book and learning about the subject. But, that is no equivalent to attainment of the STATE.

For example, if one has the STATE of be able to Sink Qi to Dan Dien, then one will know what is the relationship between the Ren Medirian, the diaphram and breathing. If one knows how to activate the Du Medirian, then one knows about the relationship of the breathing and spine....etc.

Now. if one just have book reading knowledge accumulate. One will not know what happen with the diaphram or spine while Qi is sinking to Dan Dien.... or what happen to the 3 ying legs medirians....at that particular instance.

Meridians are useful if you know what they are, and what they aren't. Most beginners have a tough time getting a handle on what they KIND OF are, let alone what they REALLY are and what they AREN'T.

I'm not saying that meridians shouldn't even be mentioned to beginners, but they really shouldn't be implemented into a student's practice before they actually understand the concept (which can take a heck of a long time!). ------

IMHO, why assum beginners have a tough time getting handle ? it is about to learn and observe one's own nature. so,

it is analogy to learning multiplication table. if one doesnt learn it or memorized it, how could one learn even basic math?

simple exercises can help with that, and I guess if you want to baby step from there, it's not a problem. There's plenty of stuff to train without knowing meridians, though -

Or are you suggesting that a gymnast is violating the laws of dynamics by performing his routine without knowledge of meridians? ------

You are starting a different subject here.

Think about it, if Internal training is not about accumulate Qi and Using Yee to lead Qi to flow in different medirians properly to attain/cultivate a certain things including physical. Then, what is Internal training is about?

Thank you for your sharing.

peace

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 12:43 PM

ok enough with the qi debate..just tell us all how to do it and we will try. What should we practice before SNT Hendrik and where do we get the info?

IMHO,

There is a different between clarification and debate.

How to do it?

You need to get a sifu who is experience. It is a different paradigm and lots of learning of the basic needs to be done.

No short cut, and BTW, book learning knowledge accumulation often do more damage then not reading it in the path of internal art cultivation.

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 12:45 PM

We all know that throwing a powerful punch or kick is a matter of body mechanics. THAT is IN-ternal.

Having a good YGKYM and being able to redirect energy threw your body and into the earth is IN-ternal.

"[/I]

The issue is what is a good YGKYM and how to activate it?
before knowing that, there is no internal for one has no vehicle to ride into that paradigm. IMHO

Xiao3 Meng4

02-13-2007, 02:01 PM

However, thus, I have heard, as a real human

I've noticed your frequent use of "Thus I have heard" and "Thus the ancestors said." Nothing wrong with that, just keep it in mind for below...

STATE is not a shame. STATE is also not something to boast about. STATE is Naturally Phenomenon. similar to how much food one can take.

IMHO, diploma and trainin doesnt replace STATE of attainment.

One can have 3 weeks of training and Attain the STATE of activate the Ren Du. One can have 1000 diploma and 20 years of training but still working on accumulating STATE.

If you're asking about my level of development, or state, I'm afraid I can't give you a satisfactory answer. I'm no beginner, but no Buddha or Lao Tzu, either. If you were to provide me with a benchmark, I guess I could tell you where I am in relation to that particular benchmark, if you felt it would be meaningful (I don't) and it was important to you...??

As far as your opinions about training and diplomas, you're entitled to them. I recognize that not having a diploma or training doesn't automatically mean a lack of skill, and I also recognize that having training or a diploma doesn't automatically mean a person is skilled. I also recognize that, IN GENERAL, honest training relates to skill development. Regardless of what one's natural abilities are, proper practice will develop those abilities.

Now, to talk about Internal art, IMHO, if one doesnt have that STATE or having a Sifu who has attainted the STATE intended to attain. Then, all book learning doesnt means a thing. Because Book learning is mind speculation instead of knowing the real thing.

...

The bottom line is everyone will be able to read a book and learning about the subject. But, that is no equivalent to attainment of the STATE.

...

Now. if one just have book reading knowledge accumulate. One will not know what happen with the diaphram or spine while Qi is sinking to Dan Dien.... or what happen to the 3 ying legs medirians....at that particular instance.

So basically, you're saying that people need a competent teacher. I agree with that, as long as we can include nature as one of the competent teachers. :)

IMHO, why assum beginners have a tough time getting handle ? it is about to learn and observe one's own nature. so, it is analogy to learning multiplication table. if one doesnt learn it or memorized it, how could one learn even basic math?

...

Think about it, if Internal training is not about accumulate Qi and Using Yee to lead Qi to flow in different medirians properly to attain/cultivate a certain things including physical. Then, what is Internal training is about?

Thank you for your sharing.

peace

I don't know who or where you are, Hendrik, but in my experience in the West, generally, most people think linearly and deductively. They're taught to think that way, and the most of the surrounding culture springs from it. The ability to observe one's own natures and their relationships to each other requires a new way of perceiving. In my experience, new students in Western cultures (be they Chinese Med students or Martial Arts Students) begin by trying to understand meridians and Qi from a linear, deductive, and rational standpoint. this is the Quasi-understanding I was talking about before. Here, many students see meridians as "lines" connecting "dots" that have certain absolute functions, and QI as 'energy' that 'flows' like a river along these lines. As students begin to let go of their deductive, rational, cognitively analytical perspective, and begin to simply feel what they feel, the opportunity to begin understanding what meridians REALLY are and REALLY aren't emerges. Observing nature without judging is the tricky part to teach in the West, imo.

I hesitate to use the word "accumulation" in regards to Qi. I prefer "refinement."
As far as using the Yi (intent) to guide the Qi (relationship between two relatively opposite things), I don't see where I failed to mention that.

Finally, Considering the emphasis you place on experiencing things for oneself, I'm tickled by the fact that you so frequently use "thus I have heard," and "thus the ancestors have said," as well as comments such as "think about it," and "memorizing," while simultaneously attempting to tell others that they shouldn't conclude things simply on the basis of transmitted knowledge - not only in this but other posts of yours. :) In a way, it's a nifty little expression of your own Qi. :D

Cheers
CSP

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 03:14 PM

I've noticed your frequent use of "Thus I have heard" and "Thus the ancestors said." Nothing wrong with that, just keep it in mind for below... ----

Everyone has thier style of presenting infomation.
Your style doesnt bother me.

If you're asking about my level of development, or state, I'm afraid I can't give you a satisfactory answer. -----

How do you know? I dont approve or disapprove others. I am just look for what is the information link to your level of development.

Bottom line, it is about technology.

As an analogy, it is like if some one say he has an Apple mac. Then, he could share all about what is his experience with the Apple mac (state).

That simple. why get into so much satisfactory or not satisfactory stuffs?

I'm no beginner, but no Buddha or Lao Tzu, either. If you were to provide me with a benchmark, I guess I could tell you where I am in relation to that particular benchmark, if you felt it would be meaningful (I don't) and it was important to you...?? -----

As I mention above, there no need a bench mark. similar to a person who has a window vista said, I have a window vista, and in window vista, this is what I seen (state).

As far as your opinions about training and diplomas, you're entitled to them. -----

Certainly, you are entitle to them. I am just repeating what your Taiji classical said, " Some practicing for tenth of years... due to double weighting." type of general case.

I recognize that not having a diploma or training doesn't automatically mean a lack of skill, and I also recognize that having training or a diploma doesn't automatically mean a person is skilled. I also recognize that, IN GENERAL, honest training relates to skill development. Regardless of what one's natural abilities are, proper practice will develop those abilities. -----

Sure. I agree with you.

So, my point is simply about what is the STATE and how far different Process could bring one.

So basically, you're saying that people need a competent teacher. I agree with that, as long as we can include nature as one of the competent teachers. :)---

People need a competent teacher with a lineage of technology.

Certainly Nature is a competent teachers. However, that is not so for most of us (may be not you but me), There needs a process or Kung Fa to enter the door before one could even understand what Nature is. Until then, one needs to learn.

and the Bottom line is Does one have the Kung Fa or process, Does one has the competent sifu to lead one to enter the door and guide one to make sure the training is accord to the lineage's technology. otherwise, it is mostly empty talk.

I don't know who or where you are, Hendrik, but in my experience in the West, generally, most people think linearly and deductively.

They're taught to think that way, and the most of the surrounding culture springs from it. The ability to observe one's own natures and their relationships to each other requires a new way of perceiving.
-------

I dont think your experience can represent the West.

Check out the following website and see for yourself there are lots and lots of enligthent, open minded, pragmatic, positive, spiritual, kind, and contructive people in the west. and might be even more then the east.

http://www.hayhouseradio.com/

In my experience, new students in Western cultures (be they Chinese Med students or Martial Arts Students) begin by trying to understand meridians and Qi from a linear, deductive, and rational standpoint. this is the Quasi-understanding I was talking about before. Here, many students see meridians as "lines" connecting "dots" that have certain absolute functions, and QI as 'energy' that 'flows' like a river along these lines. ---

There is nothing wrong with that IMHO, and when time passed by things evolve and they have a better understanding if they truely could develop STATE.

As students begin to let go of their deductive, rational, cognitively analytical perspective, and begin to simply feel what they feel, the opportunity to begin understanding what meridians REALLY are and REALLY aren't emerges. Observing nature without judging is the tricky part to teach in the West, imo. ------

So, what is medirian really are in you word via your state?

For me, Oserving nature without judging is not difficult to teach in the west.

Just present to them,

head/mind is like a computer. Observing is like the camera of the computer. Now, we are going to play a game. Shut down the mind or disengage the head, and still sensing.

so, how to do it?

simple, let the head drop, and sense each part of the body. if one did this, after a few excercise or game playing, one certainly will come to experience the different between " head up and think " and "head down and Aware".

See, IMHO, it is about Kung Fa or process. a good Kung Fa will lead one to the proper understanding much faster and smooth. and this also link with if the teacher has attain a solid STATE. without the teacher solidly knowing what is what there is no way to guide others into that state. IMHO.

with a "Talking and theory " teacher who has no real experience of the STATE it is just hopeless.

I hesitate to use the word "accumulation" in regards to Qi.
I prefer "refinement." ---

IMHO,

Accumulation is a process it is a state in all Zhen Qi cultivation, either we like it or not. if the Zhen Qi is not accumulate to a certain potential. it is too weak to work.

and what to refine? if the Zhen Qi doesnt store up? just cant.

Thus, the ancient people said, "hunder days build up the foundation" one uses 100 days to store up the Zhen Qi even if one needs to abstain from sex.

and different people are different some might even need years. some might need only a few weeks.

But the step in the process can not be skip. IMHO.

As far as using the Yi (intent) to guide the Qi (relationship between two relatively opposite things), I don't see where I failed to mention that. ----

:D there is a step need to train the Yee/intention/will before one could use the Yi to lead the Qi. in the layman term. one needs To be able to hold a mental picture. Without that step of cultivation, one cannot use one's mind effectively.

Finally, Considering the emphasis you place on experiencing things for oneself, I'm tickled by the fact that you so frequently use "thus I have heard," and "thus the ancestors have said," as well as comments such as "think about it," and "memorizing," while simultaneously attempting to tell others that they shouldn't conclude things simply on the basis of transmitted knowledge - not only in this but other posts of yours. :) In a way, it's a nifty little expression of your own Qi. :D ----

Seriously, Thus, I have heard comes form the Buddhist scripture. Where the Buddha's Student Ananda tells others about the Buddha's teaching.

He didnt said, Thus, I have attained. But he said, Thus, I have heard, one time the Buddha teaches us.

and see, transmitted knowledge is not bad if one have go through and attain the STATE oneself via that transmitted knowledge or process or Kung Fa.

The trouble come in when one have no idea of the STATE and attainment but keeping using the book learning accumulative knowledge thinking one know what one is talking about and not aware of one is totally blind.

just some thoughts.

Peace

guy b.

02-13-2007, 03:27 PM

This is pointless info..where do we find a teacher?

Nick Forrer

02-13-2007, 05:30 PM

Guy

sorry to sound like a broken record but if you come to alans class he can show you exercises that help activate the microcosmic orbit. This has 2 channels (ren and du which run up the front and back of the body) and 4 points in each so 8 points in total. It essentially involves inflating the diaphragm rather than the chest when you inhale thus creating a kind of pumped up tire effect round your abdomen. Such at least is my limited experience of it.

Xiao3 Meng4

02-13-2007, 05:53 PM

Your style doesnt bother me.

Nor does your style bother me. If I'm bothered, I'll point it out gently. I trust that you would offer me the same courtesy. :)

As an analogy, it is like if some one say he has an Apple mac. Then, he could share all about what is his experience with the Apple mac (state).

That simple. why get into so much satisfactory or not satisfactory stuffs?

in part, it's because I don't want to get into a debate on lineage, DNA, and the like. Those posts bore me and I have nothing to glean or contribute. My feeling is that if I start posting along the lines you're asking me to, the conversation will move in that direction. For the record, I don't care about lineage. If there was a martial art that claimed to have Santa Claus as its founder, I wouldn't care. The proof is in the pudding, not the package.

With that said, I'll provide a basic outline of what 'states' (how I loathe this term) we look to practice and integrate into our lives. I'm not sure if this will be of any use to you, though.

One of the core viewpoints we work from involves the idea of "animals." I've heard them called "basins" in Ba Gua and in "Burners" or "San Jiao" in Chinese Medicine (not the meridians on the arms, but the actual areas of the body that correspond to each "burner.")

We have 3 animals. the Lower animal relates to the hips and everything below them. It is assosciated with Jing. The lower animal is tied to our structure, primal instincts and drives (preheaven). when paying attention to the lower animal, we check for balance, stability, mobility, relaxedness, and instinctive responsiveness. We use fear as the catalyst for these checks - that is, we practice using fear to amplify our responses as opposed to letting fear inhibit them. Fear can catalyze or paralyze. Lower animal training helps us develop our ability to respond adaptively while reducing our tendencies to resist adaptation.

The middle animal relates to everything between the hips and the xyphoid process (some say the solar plexus.) It is assosciated with Qi. The middle animal is tied to our ability to change our environments, both internal and external, as needed or desired. When paying attention to the middle animal, we check for openness, flexibility, relaxedness and connectivity between the two arms, as well as connectivity to the lower animal. The middle animal is about acting. We use determination and anger to catalyze those actions into effective adaptive states that are linked to our lower animal's instincts.

The upper animal relates to everything above the xyphoid process. It is assosciated with Shen. The upper animal is about sensing the internal and external environments (postheaven) without judging or thinking and relaying its input to the middle and lower animals. Basically, we aim to shut the mind off and keep the senses on, letting our super-fast instincts drive our actions as opposed to our sludgy thoughts. We use awe to catalyze our senses: seeing a tornado is awe inspiring, and draws us to watch it. This can lead to nasty results, especially if, in our awe, we forget to adapt. Being able to adapt instinctively and effectively while in awe is the idea here.

This comes primarily from the Zi Ran Men I practice. I have, however, found that in Wing Chun training, we can correspond the animals to forms and sections (not necessary, and probably not what you do.) slt is the lower animal, ck is the middle animal, and bj is the upper animal. Likewise, section one of slt has greater emphasis on the lower animal than does the second section, which looks at the middle animal in relation to the lower animal, and section three looks at the upper animal in relation to the lower. For ck, section 1 is middle animal-lower animal training, section 2 is middle animal-middle animal training, and section 3 is middle-animal-upper animal training. In a sense, it's a nested approach, with each section or form building upon the previous sections or forms.

and the Bottom line is Does one have the Kung Fa or process...

In my opinion, the bottom line is does one have 'A' Gong Fa that is rooted in reality... not 'THE' Gong Fa which is in accord with a specific lineage.

I dont think your experience can represent the West.

If I implied that there are no lateral thinkers out there, I apologize. It has still been my experience that Westerners with no previous exposure to other methods of thinking require a gradual introduction and constant work in order to get to a useful and applicable understanding of a system. It's very tempting to wow beginners with seemingly mystical ideas, believing that the magnificence of it all will motivate them to train whatever it is the instructor wants to teach. I've seen it happen, and I've seen students get so frustrated that they quit, only to start spouting theories and philosophies as though they knew what they were talking about. So, for me, meridian theory comes later on in the curriculum.

So, what is medirian really are in you word via your state?

Meridians are groups of functionally related relationships that cover the entire spectrum of existence and can be manipulated at any point along that spectrum.

They are all of the structures of the body that do not comprise the bowels or viscera. The four sub-types of meridians include: jing mai, which are large, deep, and run longitudinally within the body; luo mai, which are smaller, more superficial, and netlike; Jing Jin, which are the muscles, tendons, nerves, etc.; and Pi Bu, which are the dermal, or the most superficial extension of meridians. Each meridian therefore can undergo a process of internal optimization (within its own respective functions) and external optimization (with other meridians, including the environment.)

If you would like an interesting view on the eight extra meridians and their expression in human embryology, pm me and I'll send something your way.

IMHO,

Accumulation is a process it is a state in all Zhen Qi cultivation, either we like it or not. if the Zhen Qi is not accumulate to a certain potential. it is too weak to work.

and what to refine? if the Zhen Qi doesnt store up? just cant.

Thus, the ancient people said, "hunder days build up the foundation" one uses 100 days to store up the Zhen Qi even if one needs to abstain from sex.

and different people are different some might even need years. some might need only a few weeks.

But the step in the process can not be skip. IMHO.

Zhen Qi, or True Qi, is the sum total of your preheaven (before birth,congenital) Qi, and your postheaven (after birth, environmentally influenced) Qi. Everybody has enough preheaven Qi to live a very long and healthy life, provided that the postheaven Qi is tended properly (appropriate food, air, water, experiences, perceptions, behaviours, etc.) A lack of tending to the postheaven will eventually lead to a depletion in the preheaven. When Preheaven Qi is gone, yin and yang separate, and death comes.

So yes, it is important to keep the postheaven Qi intact so that the preheaven Qi doesn't get damaged. I still see this as a refinement process; for example, learning what foods to eat and what foods to avoid. for me, accumulations imply excesses - dampness, phlegm, masses, toxins, etc.

As far as the 100 days practice goes, I've seen it achieve results 99% of the time. I have yet to meet someone who didn't get anything out of it, or needed to go longer. I have yet to see someone who got results without going a full 100 days. An interesting aside to this is that many cells, including red blood cells, have an in-body lifespan of 100 days.

:D there is a step need to train the Yee/intention/will before one could use the Yi to lead the Qi. in the layman term. one needs To be able to hold a mental picture. Without that step of cultivation, one cannot use one's mind effectively.

lol, having an idea of what you want to do before you do it is important no matter what. :D

Seriously, Thus, I have heard comes form the Buddhist scripture. Where the Buddha's Student Ananda tells others about the Buddha's teaching.

He didnt said, Thus, I have attained. But he said, Thus, I have heard, one time the Buddha teaches us.

just some thoughts.

Peace

wasn't it buddha that said "do not believe something simply because it is written in a great book or preached by a great man; believe only what you have experienced for yourself" ?

That being the case, what the heck was Ananda doing going around spouting "Thus I have heard..." ???? ;)

Ciao 4 Nao
CSP

Hendrik

02-13-2007, 07:01 PM

guy b.

02-14-2007, 02:40 AM

Thanks Nick, I do intend to visit!

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.tehutionline.com/newpage30.htm

Nick Forrer

02-14-2007, 05:22 AM

Guy

Yes that looks right although I cant comment on the exercises the writer prescribes to activate the orbit since I am not familiar with them

Hendrik try

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/health/healthandhealing.html

cheers

mantis108

02-14-2007, 11:12 AM

Nor does your style bother me. If I'm bothered, I'll point it out gently. I trust that you would offer me the same courtesy. :)

in part, it's because I don't want to get into a debate on lineage, DNA, and the like. Those posts bore me and I have nothing to glean or contribute. My feeling is that if I start posting along the lines you're asking me to, the conversation will move in that direction. For the record, I don't care about lineage. If there was a martial art that claimed to have Santa Claus as its founder, I wouldn't care. The proof is in the pudding, not the package.

With that said, I'll provide a basic outline of what 'states' (how I loathe this term) we look to practice and integrate into our lives. I'm not sure if this will be of any use to you, though.

One of the core viewpoints we work from involves the idea of "animals." I've heard them called "basins" in Ba Gua and in "Burners" or "San Jiao" in Chinese Medicine (not the meridians on the arms, but the actual areas of the body that correspond to each "burner.")

We have 3 animals. the Lower animal relates to the hips and everything below them. It is assosciated with Jing. The lower animal is tied to our structure, primal instincts and drives (preheaven). when paying attention to the lower animal, we check for balance, stability, mobility, relaxedness, and instinctive responsiveness. We use fear as the catalyst for these checks - that is, we practice using fear to amplify our responses as opposed to letting fear inhibit them. Fear can catalyze or paralyze. Lower animal training helps us develop our ability to respond adaptively while reducing our tendencies to resist adaptation.

The middle animal relates to everything between the hips and the xyphoid process (some say the solar plexus.) It is assosciated with Qi. The middle animal is tied to our ability to change our environments, both internal and external, as needed or desired. When paying attention to the middle animal, we check for openness, flexibility, relaxedness and connectivity between the two arms, as well as connectivity to the lower animal. The middle animal is about acting. We use determination and anger to catalyze those actions into effective adaptive states that are linked to our lower animal's instincts.

The upper animal relates to everything above the xyphoid process. It is assosciated with Shen. The upper animal is about sensing the internal and external environments (postheaven) without judging or thinking and relaying its input to the middle and lower animals. Basically, we aim to shut the mind off and keep the senses on, letting our super-fast instincts drive our actions as opposed to our sludgy thoughts. We use awe to catalyze our senses: seeing a tornado is awe inspiring, and draws us to watch it. This can lead to nasty results, especially if, in our awe, we forget to adapt. Being able to adapt instinctively and effectively while in awe is the idea here.

This comes primarily from the Zi Ran Men I practice. I have, however, found that in Wing Chun training, we can correspond the animals to forms and sections (not necessary, and probably not what you do.) slt is the lower animal, ck is the middle animal, and bj is the upper animal. Likewise, section one of slt has greater emphasis on the lower animal than does the second section, which looks at the middle animal in relation to the lower animal, and section three looks at the upper animal in relation to the lower. For ck, section 1 is middle animal-lower animal training, section 2 is middle animal-middle animal training, and section 3 is middle-animal-upper animal training. In a sense, it's a nested approach, with each section or form building upon the previous sections or forms.

In my opinion, the bottom line is does one have 'A' Gong Fa that is rooted in reality... not 'THE' Gong Fa which is in accord with a specific lineage.

If I implied that there are no lateral thinkers out there, I apologize. It has still been my experience that Westerners with no previous exposure to other methods of thinking require a gradual introduction and constant work in order to get to a useful and applicable understanding of a system. It's very tempting to wow beginners with seemingly mystical ideas, believing that the magnificence of it all will motivate them to train whatever it is the instructor wants to teach. I've seen it happen, and I've seen students get so frustrated that they quit, only to start spouting theories and philosophies as though they knew what they were talking about. So, for me, meridian theory comes later on in the curriculum.

Meridians are groups of functionally related relationships that cover the entire spectrum of existence and can be manipulated at any point along that spectrum.

They are all of the structures of the body that do not comprise the bowels or viscera. The four sub-types of meridians include: jing mai, which are large, deep, and run longitudinally within the body; luo mai, which are smaller, more superficial, and netlike; Jing Jin, which are the muscles, tendons, nerves, etc.; and Pi Bu, which are the dermal, or the most superficial extension of meridians. Each meridian therefore can undergo a process of internal optimization (within its own respective functions) and external optimization (with other meridians, including the environment.)

If you would like an interesting view on the eight extra meridians and their expression in human embryology, pm me and I'll send something your way.

Zhen Qi, or True Qi, is the sum total of your preheaven (before birth,congenital) Qi, and your postheaven (after birth, environmentally influenced) Qi. Everybody has enough preheaven Qi to live a very long and healthy life, provided that the postheaven Qi is tended properly (appropriate food, air, water, experiences, perceptions, behaviours, etc.) A lack of tending to the postheaven will eventually lead to a depletion in the preheaven. When Preheaven Qi is gone, yin and yang separate, and death comes.

So yes, it is important to keep the postheaven Qi intact so that the preheaven Qi doesn't get damaged. I still see this as a refinement process; for example, learning what foods to eat and what foods to avoid. for me, accumulations imply excesses - dampness, phlegm, masses, toxins, etc.

As far as the 100 days practice goes, I've seen it achieve results 99% of the time. I have yet to meet someone who didn't get anything out of it, or needed to go longer. I have yet to see someone who got results without going a full 100 days. An interesting aside to this is that many cells, including red blood cells, have an in-body lifespan of 100 days.

lol, having an idea of what you want to do before you do it is important no matter what. :D

wasn't it buddha that said "do not believe something simply because it is written in a great book or preached by a great man; believe only what you have experienced for yourself" ?

That being the case, what the heck was Ananda doing going around spouting "Thus I have heard..." ???? ;)

Ciao 4 Nao
CSP

That's very insightful. Thank you for sharing. I would love to hear your take on the 8 extra meridians as well if you don't mind posting that as well.

Warm regards

Mantis108

Hendrik

02-14-2007, 02:08 PM

Xiao3 Meng4

02-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Hi Mantis 108,

I'll give a quick synopsis here, if you want to discuss it in greater detail, let's open another thread. :)

Basically, We start with Yang Wei and Yin wei as the emergent meridians. Yang Wei expresses the outer perimeter of the cell, while Yin Wei expresses the inner environment, working against entropy. Chong and Dai Mai emerge together, allowing for cell nourishment and division. Ren and Du Mai emerge together, allowing for patterning of the cell division, and awareness of what the current developmental stage is. Yin and Yang Qiao are next, as we develop sense organs and limbs.

Anything more on this, just start another thread and I'll happily discuss this kind of stuff. :)

CSP

Hendrik

02-14-2007, 05:28 PM

mantis108

02-14-2007, 06:44 PM

Thank you for sharing your view. If others don't object to your further sharing more about your meridian theory, please by all means keep it here under one thread. I think your insight is valueable to the current discussion. After all we are still talking about internal right?

It would seem that you are sharing your expertise on the TCM at the same time which I think is execellent info for further discussion.

Please continue and I am all ears at this point. :) Thank you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

Xiao3 Meng4

02-14-2007, 06:55 PM

It's not MY theory. It's Nei Jing theory. I just happen to agree with it. :)

And Sure, I can post more... I'll try to keep it as MA relevant as possible, and please, don't take my words for granted... One moon in many pools, in many pools the same moon. (I forget who said that but I like it.)

CSP

Edit: I'm all ears concerning other views too, I like exploring. :)

Xiao3 Meng4

02-14-2007, 11:50 PM

To clarify:

The thing about spectrums was an accepted definition among a group of experienced Graduated and Licensed practitioners who were taking part in an advanced meridians class.

The four types of Meridians can be found in the Nei Jing. I prefer the Silk Book Version found in the MaWangDui tombs. It meshes well with the experiences I've had.

CSP

Hendrik

02-15-2007, 12:33 AM

It's not MY theory. It's Nei Jing theory. I just happen to agree with it. :)

Thanks for sharing,

That is also what I thought. This is TCM theory instead of....

The reason is that, Thus I have heard, in practice, process step needs to be done in a certain way...... there is a reason why ren and du are activate first, or liver medirian is activate first, or lung medirian is activate first....etc

IE: thus, I have heard, one could call accumulation as refine...etc. however, in reality, if the Zhen Qi is not accumulate in Dan Dien there is not much can be done.

Just some thoughts.

Xiao3 Meng4

02-15-2007, 01:44 AM

IE: thus, I have heard, one could call accumulation as refine...etc. however, in reality, if the Zhen Qi is not accumulate in Dan Dien the not much can be done.
Just some thoughts.

Right, what's Dan Tian?
I've heard many different descriptions - it's a cinnabar field, it's the home of the spiritual embryo, it's a point 2 inches below the navel. We're supposed to put our mind there and observe it.

Dan Tian is on the Ren Meridian. my understanding is that the Ren meridian deals with functions and structures relating to patterns and the propagation of those patterns.

Ming Men (bright gate, gate of Destiny)is on the Du Meridian. My understanding is that the Du meridian deals with functions and structures relating to awareness and the communication of awareness.

When we look at the pathways of the two meridians, we see that they actually intertwine... rather than just having Ren Mai run up the front of the body from the perineum to the mouth and Du Mai from the tailbone to the Upper lip, the meridians actually share pathways, with an internal pathway of Ren Mai sharing a large part of Du Mai's external pathway, and Du Mai's internal pathway sharing a large part of Ren Mai's external pathway.

Whassissallmean?

Well, it means that
a) patterns and awareness are intertwined to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much practice has been done relating them to one another. Both are important for survival.

b) looking at the meridians as a spectrum of grouped functional relationships, we can examine where, microcosmically, Dan Tian and Ming Men are located in that spectrum. Dan Tian is a cinnabar field. Cinnabar is related to mercury, which in Taoist metaphysics is related to the immaterial spiritual essence of conscious knowledge. Ming Men is related to Yuan Qi, or our body's primordial functions. Hence, when doing a Qigong practice, we can incorporate these ideas from the viewpoint that The work done with Dan Tian tends towards the physical expression of the immaterial spiritual essence of conscious knowledge, while the work done with Ming Men tends towards becoming aware of our body's primordial nature. Put together we can say "Refine your habits towards the expression of natural survival and adaptation."

An easy way to work on one and then the other in a rhythmic fashion is to match the work to an alternating rhythm such as breathing. Breathing in, for instance, relates more to awareness than to pattern (but obviously not exclusively to awareness, or our breathing would be irregular) insomuch that when we breathe in, we take in, or sense, the outside world. Breathing out, we expulse something that we've altered back into the environment. Breathing out can be looked at as relating more to (but not exclusively to) pattern than to awareness. We altered something in our environment based on the patterns we used to adapt to it.

So, based on this, a drill, or exercise, can be devised. When breathing in, focus on sensing and being aware of your patterns. When breathing out, focus on expressing those patterns you know to be natural. Step one is to make the breath natural... ie not force it. Just breathe in when you need to and out when you need to, and in THOSE moments, work on one or the other alternately. To force the breath is not the idea, and to work on one or the other alone is unbalanced and can lead to problems such as addictions or Neurosis. You wouldn't Just breathe in or Just breathe out now, would you? :)

When doing slt, especially the first section, we can incorporate internal practice simply by breathing normally, working slowly through the form, focusing on feeling our body and its surroundings as we breathe in and readjusting our expression as needed towards naturalness as we breathe breathe out (all in tune with our intent, of course.)

Just more thoughts. :)

CSP

Xiao3 Meng4

02-15-2007, 02:53 AM

Thanks for sharing,
IE: thus, I have heard, one could call accumulation as refine...etc. however, in reality, if the Zhen Qi is not accumulate in Dan Dien there is not much can be done.
Just some thoughts.

Also, in regards to Zhen Qi, I see the process posted above as a refinement of Zhen Qi, which could be described as the accumulation of positive habits and clear perspectives. In a sense, we use our intent to link the patterns we express in our external and internal environments (postheaven) to our primordial needs (preheaven.)

Looking at breathing, many Qi Gong instructors place great emphasis on the diaphragm. Some advocate reversed breathing, some regular breathing. The way I understand it, our diaphragm is like a big oval. When we breathe in, the diaphragm expands in all directions and the middle descends relative to where it was. When we exhale, the diaphram contracts from all directions and the middle ascends relative to where it was. Try it and feel it, or think about how the anatomy of the diaphragm reflects its natural movement and how whatever breathing it is you're being taught can be linked to that natural movement.

when I first started doing breathing exercises, I had a partially atrophied diapghram. It was as though only one sector of a circle (the one between my belly button and the centre of my diaphragm) was doing any work, expanding and contracting one its own without help from the rest of the diaphragm. Gradually, over time, I've come to be able to use my diaphragm more as it was intended to be used, physiologically speaking. This has been in large part to using the simple breathing exercise above to become aware of where my diaphragm was tense and then working on relaxing and coordinating it to make it more wholistic, efficient, posturally linked and smooth. Although the description may provide an image it's really something that needs to be felt and interpreted oneself, and in order to do so I recommend finding a reputable Qi Gong instructor. I'm happy with the results I'm getting. One interesting thing I didn't expect was how many other parts of my body I had to relax before being able to even GET to my diaphragm. :D
These days I know my diaphragm is not perfect. I need quite a bit more work, I'd say... so far so good, though.

CSP

mantis108

02-15-2007, 03:59 PM

I made a long reply concerning the function of Dan Tian post but the netscape window just disappeared. :(

Anyway, I would like to thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights. I will try to make another reply.

Warm regards

Mantis108

mantis108

02-15-2007, 04:09 PM

Right, what's Dan Tian?
I've heard many different descriptions - it's a cinnabar field, it's the home of the spiritual embryo, it's a point 2 inches below the navel. We're supposed to put our mind there and observe it.

Dan Tian, also known as Qi Hai, technically is the "space" 3 inches below the navel. Now, some people believe that it is the Guan Yuan point. BTW, one inch here actually mean that it is the length of the middle phalanx of middle finger. 3 inches is that length times 3. So each person's measurement isn't exactlly the same. In terms of internal alchemy, Dan Tian is also known as Xuan Pin (mysterious matriarch), which is the internal "space" while the external "gate" of Xuan Pin is the nose and the mouth. At the same time, this is connected with the environment (ie Hou Tian Qi or external meridian). I believe this is consistent to the concept of spectrum of the meridian theory .

Dan Tian is on the Ren Meridian. my understanding is that the Ren meridian deals with functions and structures relating to patterns and the propagation of those patterns.

As far as my understanding goes, Ren Meridian is the "ocean" of all the Yin meridians of the body. Yin Qi, a close relation of Hou Tian Qi, in the form fire naturally rally at the Dan Tian juncture. In a healthy body, the good function of the kidney (water) will be able to keep the fire in the Dan Tian in check. When the Kidneys function poorly, the fire will go awol and causes all kinds of problem including cancers. BTW, this is also know as zou huo (escaped fire) This is the reason that the functions and structures of the Kidney are so highly regards.

Ming Men (bright gate, gate of Destiny)is on the Du Meridian. My understanding is that the Du meridian deals with functions and structures relating to awareness and the communication of awareness.

Ming Men is behind the navel and in between the "inner" kidneys. It is where the Xian Tian Qi resides. The external "gate" of Ming Men is the reproductive organs. This is the reason excessive sex is thought to deplete the Xian Tian Qi as well. Together with the navel, it is the "Taiji" of human form existence.

When we look at the pathways of the two meridians, we see that they actually intertwine... rather than just having Ren Mai run up the front of the body from the perineum to the mouth and Du Mai from the tailbone to the Upper lip, the meridians actually share pathways, with an internal pathway of Ren Mai sharing a large part of Du Mai's external pathway, and Du Mai's internal pathway sharing a large part of Ren Mai's external pathway.

No comment.

Whassissallmean?

Well, it means that
a) patterns and awareness are intertwined to a greater or lesser extent, depending on how much practice has been done relating them to one another. Both are important for survival.

I agreed

b) looking at the meridians as a spectrum of grouped functional relationships, we can examine where, microcosmically, Dan Tian and Ming Men are located in that spectrum. Dan Tian is a cinnabar field. Cinnabar is related to mercury, which in Taoist metaphysics is related to the immaterial spiritual essence of conscious knowledge. Ming Men is related to Yuan Qi, or our body's primordial functions. Hence, when doing a Qigong practice, we can incorporate these ideas from the viewpoint that The work done with Dan Tian tends towards the physical expression of the immaterial spiritual essence of conscious knowledge, while the work done with Ming Men tends towards becoming aware of our body's primordial nature. Put together we can say "Refine your habits towards the expression of natural survival and adaptation."

Cinnabar is the ore form (solid) of mercury, which through processing would turn into liquid metal (fluid) and vipour form (air). This is the representation of the physical reality as human can "perceive" and a metaphor for Hou Tian Qi. However, mercury is too unstable to handle so the other important ingredian, lead (Xian Tian Qi) has to be brought in "active duty" in order to form the exilir (the golden pill - Jin Dan). So as we can see, this is consistent with the spectrum so far.

An easy way to work on one and then the other in a rhythmic fashion is to match the work to an alternating rhythm such as breathing. Breathing in, for instance, relates more to awareness than to pattern (but obviously not exclusively to awareness, or our breathing would be irregular) insomuch that when we breathe in, we take in, or sense, the outside world. Breathing out, we expulse something that we've altered back into the environment. Breathing out can be looked at as relating more to (but not exclusively to) pattern than to awareness. We altered something in our environment based on the patterns we used to adapt to it.

There are myriad of methodology concerning breathing. This would seem a bit overly simplified IMHO. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with what you have said. It's just a bit overly simplified here. I suppose there is no harm to leave it at like this.

So, based on this, a drill, or exercise, can be devised. When breathing in, focus on sensing and being aware of your patterns. When breathing out, focus on expressing those patterns you know to be natural. Step one is to make the breath natural... ie not force it. Just breathe in when you need to and out when you need to, and in THOSE moments, work on one or the other alternately. To force the breath is not the idea, and to work on one or the other alone is unbalanced and can lead to problems such as addictions or Neurosis. You wouldn't Just breathe in or Just breathe out now, would you? :)

Again it depends on the end goal of the practice. This is fine so far.

When doing slt, especially the first section, we can incorporate internal practice simply by breathing normally, working slowly through the form, focusing on feeling our body and its surroundings as we breathe in and readjusting our expression as needed towards naturalness as we breathe breathe out (all in tune with our intent, of course.)

Just more thoughts. :)

No comment as it relates to a specific MA style's form. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights. I really appreciate that and look forward to further discussions.

Warm regards

Manits108

Hendrik

02-15-2007, 10:05 PM

my take is, theory is great.

However, how many have really cultivate to the state of sink qi into Dan Dien and then Accumulate in Dan Dien. Otherwise, IMHO, it is all speculation.

as for how to sink qi into Dan Dien or Accumulate in Dan Dien and What/where is Dan Dien, that it will be great for those who have the experience to share with us.

As for

"When we look at the pathways of the two meridians, we see that they actually intertwine... rather than just having Ren Mai run up the front of the body from the perineum to the mouth and Du Mai from the tailbone to the Upper lip, the meridians actually share pathways, with an internal pathway of Ren Mai sharing a large part of Du Mai's external pathway, and Du Mai's internal pathway sharing a large part of Ren Mai's external pathway."------

Where is this theory is from? true experience while doing the microcosmic orbiting or speculation?

Thus I have heard, cultivate the Zhen Qi and do the microcosmic orbit and observe for oneself. is it as what the above or different? these stuffs is not up for speculation without experience. otherwise it is a misleading others.

Peace

Xiao3 Meng4

02-16-2007, 09:24 PM

Hey Mantis108, thanks for adding to the info and providing constructive discussion!

Dan Tian, also known as Qi Hai, technically is the "space" 3 inches below the navel.

That is what I was originally taught as well. Also some stuff about centre of gravity and the like.

Here's the idea - all living things have the eight extra meridians, from smallest to biggest, so Ren Mai and Du Mai exist on a cellular level. This means every cell in our body has a Ren and a Du Meridian. (Yes, Hendrik, this is theory, it's different from historical theory but similar in that it's not at all relevant to practice, but still fun to talk about :) )

Where does that put Dan tian and Ming Men in relation to the Ren and Du Meridians on an organism in general?

BTW, one inch here actually mean that it is the length of the middle phalanx of middle finger. 3 inches is that length times 3.

You can also use the width of the thumb at the distal joint as your own personal inch. It's the same width as the length of that middle phalanx.

As far as my understanding goes, Ren Meridian is the "ocean" of all the Yin meridians of the body. Yin Qi, a close relation of Hou Tian Qi, in the form fire naturally rally at the Dan Tian juncture. In a healthy body, the good function of the kidney (water) will be able to keep the fire in the Dan Tian in check. When the Kidneys function poorly, the fire will go awol and causes all kinds of problem including cancers. BTW, this is also know as zou huo (escaped fire) This is the reason that the functions and structures of the Kidney are so highly regards.

Agreed.

Cinnabar is the ore form (solid) of mercury, which through processing would turn into liquid metal (fluid) and vipour form (air). This is the representation of the physical reality as human can "perceive" and a metaphor for Hou Tian Qi. However, mercury is too unstable to handle so the other important ingredian, lead (Xian Tian Qi) has to be brought in "active duty" in order to form the exilir (the golden pill - Jin Dan). So as we can see, this is consistent with the spectrum so far.

Nice Analysis!

There are myriad of methodology concerning breathing. This would seem a bit overly simplified IMHO. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with what you have said. It's just a bit overly simplified here. I suppose there is no harm to leave it at like this.

Gotta start somewhere.. please feel free to examine in more detail.

I appreciate the the time and care you've taken to discuss this. I also look forward to more discussion.

Cheers
CSP

Xiao3 Meng4

02-16-2007, 10:30 PM

my take is, theory is great.
However, how many have really cultivate to the state of sink qi into Dan Dien and then Accumulate in Dan Dien. Otherwise, IMHO, it is all speculation.

agreed. Seeing as you're fond of computer analogies: Although transmittable systems translate experience into communicable theory and then attempt to transmit it at the wavelength with the clearest signal, it's still up to the end-user to receive the theory, translate the theory back into experience, and to use their own natural error-checking to do so.

as for how to sink qi into Dan Dien or Accumulate in Dan Dien and What/where is Dan Dien, that it will be great for those who have the experience to share with us.

Couldn't agree more. Share your experiences, please.

Hendrik: if you posted your experiences, Do you think you'd be the first to do so on this thread? And if you posted your experiences, would they become theory or would they remain experiences?

As for

"When we look at the pathways of the two meridians, we see that they actually intertwine... rather than just having Ren Mai run up the front of the body from the perineum to the mouth and Du Mai from the tailbone to the Upper lip, the meridians actually share pathways, with an internal pathway of Ren Mai sharing a large part of Du Mai's external pathway, and Du Mai's internal pathway sharing a large part of Ren Mai's external pathway."------

Where is this theory is from? true experience while doing the microcosmic orbiting or speculation?

FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BALL, BOYS AND GIRLS!!! (Keep track with your finger.)

"The Conception Vessel [REN MAI] Primary Pathway Arises (Below zhongji REN-3) in the uterus in females and the lower abdomen in males and emerges at Huiyin REN-1 in the perineum, ascends along the midline of the abdomen, chest, throat and jaw, terminating at Chengjiang REN-24, the interior portion of the channel winds around the mouth, connects with the governing vessel at Yinjiao DU-28 and terminates below the eye at Chengqi St-1.

A branch arises in the pelvic cavity, enters along the spine and ascends along the back.

Note: Changqiang (DU-1) is classified as a meeting point of the conception and
governing vessels, although it is not normally shown as such on illustrations of the conception vessel primary pathway." - Deadman, P., and Al-Khafaji, M., with Baker, K. (2001). A Manual of Acupuncture. East Sussex. Journal of Chinese Medicine Publications.

"the Governing Vessel [DU MAI] Primary pathway originates in the lower abdomen and emerges at the perineum, passes through Changqiang DU-1 and runs posteriorly along the midline of the sacrum and the interior of the spinal column to FengFu DU-16 at the nape of the neck, enters the brain, ascends to the vertex at BaiHui Du-20, descends along the midline of the head to the bridge of the nose and the philtrum at Renzhong Du-26, [and] terminates at the junction of the upper lip and the gum.

Note: HuiYin REN-1 and chengjiang REN-24 are classified as meeting points of the governing vessel with the conception vessel.

The Governing Vessel First Branch originates in the lower abdomen, descends to the genitals and perineum, winds around the anus, ascends the interior of the spinal column, [and] enters the kidneys.

The governing vessel second branch originates in the lower abdomen, winds around the external genitalia, ascends to the middle of the umbilicus, passes through the heart, ascends to the throat, winds around the mouth, [and] ascends to below the middle of the eyes.

The governing vessel third branch emerges at Jingming BL-1, follows the bladder channel bilaterally along the forehead, the bilateral branches converge at the vertex and enter the brain, the single channel emerges at FengFu Du-16, then divides again, descending through FengMen BL-12 along either side of the spine to the kidneys." - Deadman, P., and Al-Khafaji, M., with Baker, K. (2001). A Manual of Acupuncture. East Sussex. Journal of Chinese Medicine Publications.

These pathways adequately explain the (experience-able)manifestations associated with REN MAI and DU MAI for me.

Thus I have heard, cultivate the Zhen Qi and do the microcosmic orbit and observe for oneself. is it as what the above or different? these stuffs is not up for speculation without experience. otherwise it is a misleading others.
Peace

Experience is key. Agreed. directed understanding helps, too. If you're going to go for a hike there's no need to read up on racecars. However, having a map might be handy. :)

Hendrik

02-17-2007, 12:20 AM

Hendrik: if you posted your experiences, Do you think you'd be the first to do so on this thread? And if you posted your experiences, would they become theory or would they remain experiences?------

You see, If I have experience. I dont think. similar to if I met a police on the street, I just tell you I met a police. that is all.

So, it is not a theory or would they remain experiences. it is a report of a meeting. and everyone can met a police.

"The Conception Vessel [REN MAI] Primary Pathway Arises (Below zhongji REN-3) in the uterus in females and the lower abdomen in males and emerges at Huiyin REN-1 in the perineum, ascends along the midline of the abdomen, ch.................ith Baker, K. (2001). A Manual of Acupuncture. East Sussex. Journal of Chinese Medicine Publications.

These pathways adequately explain the (experience-able)manifestations associated with REN MAI and DU MAI for me.

All is great except if is this match with Nei chiin or internal scenary when one could "see" the Qi Mai?

That is a good question.

peace

Xiao3 Meng4

02-17-2007, 07:10 PM

So, it is not a theory or would they remain experiences. it is a report of a meeting. and everyone can met a police.

Heh, just a story, but you made me think of it...

I want to tell you about this traffic light I met. He was directing traffic to and from the city centre. Things were moving smoothly, and I told him "wow, you're doing a great job." He laughed and said "I couldn't do my job without the other traffic lights in the city, let alone the other three you see around me." I asked him what he meant, and said "I and the other three lights on this corner tell all the other lights what's going on here. Similarly, we receive information from all the other traffic lights about what's going on in the city, and then all of us as a whole ensure the smooth flow of traffic in and out of the city." I asked him if it was important to have the smooth flow of traffic, and he replied "It's VERY important. If the flow of traffic in our city wasn't smooth, then the air would get clogged up. People wouldn't get where they were going on time, and would waste time, energy, and money. Businesses would falter. Needed goods would not come into the city, and waste would not leave the city. The lack of flow would make it very difficult to perform repairs, and over time the damaged routes would exacerbate the situation. Stress levels would increase, and people would move away. Eventually, the city would be a mere shell of itself. This is why we strive daily to ensure the smooth flow of life through our city." I thanked him, then met a park bench. i asked him what he was doing. The bench, who had overheard my previous conversation, simply responded, "same as the traffic light." As did every other thing I talked to in town. :D

All is great except if is this match with Nei chiin or internal scenary when one could "see" the Qi Mai?
That is a good question.

The Ma Wang Dui Silk Book is the oldest Chinese text yet to be discovered. It includes the Nei Jing and various Qi Gong exercises describing entire meridians but very few points. How do you think the ancients discovered these pathways?

When I practice, I don't look for feelings. I just feel what I feel, and work to relate with it as best I can. That being said, sometimes when practicing interesting feelings arise that are very attractive and make us want to cling to them, make them go on a bit longer, or look for them the next time. I say start from scratch every time, and simply focus on expressing intent as Carefully (Full of care) as possible. By Connecting structure to movement through awareness and intent (like the traffic light) a concept can be expressed. Be it the maintenance of initiative, Resonance, neutralization, deflection, disruption, whatever... Do it with care and the Qi will be refined. Have you ever heard of proprioception? The idea of knowing where your limbs are in space at all times without having to use visual input? This is a type of Qi.. knowing where one part of the body is in relation to another. Jewelers have very high proprioception in their fingers. Athletes have high proprioception in their external physical processes. Internal artists look for proprioception at deeper levels, Imo. Being able to "feel" a meridian isn't the idea; To be able to feel the relationship within all of a meridian's spectrum and temper that relationship with primordial nature is where my experiences are leading me, as well as to feel and refine the relationship between different meridians (this is easier because you can more easily incorporate external training to help, so far as I've seen.)

Hendrik

02-17-2007, 10:22 PM

Heh, just a story, but you made me think of it...----

Thanks for sharing and have a happy new year.

Get one of this

http://store.soundstrue.com/os01098d.html

because it could effectively verified Dan Dien breathing via HRV

"• The Grapher: An improved version of the original add-on software, this mode provides a precise display of your HRV and SCL, with a powerful color-spectrum graphic that reflects "heart coherence" moment by moment. It also displays a pulsing butterfly icon that’s very effective for pacing your breathing. "

hook it up one will see within 2 minutes if one really have the Kung fu for Dan Dien breathing and prequisit of the Intention to lead Qi. or else one could find out what is a Dan Dien breathing and how to enter into the state and how to stay within the state and how long.
Excellent tool for a more effective training for internal art. IMHO

It turns out that when Dan Dien breathing is activate "heart coherence " state is naturally enter.

also one can easily check to see how well the Kung Fa or process for settle "the Shen and qi accumulation" work with this tool. Modern technology is great.

read the following:

"Q: Is it better than traditional meditation or yoga for stress reduction?

A: I pitted two tried-and-true calming practices against the StressEraser:

1. mindfulness meditation (as taught by Thich Nhat Hanh and the Insight Meditation folks) and

2. pranayama yoga breathing (the kind taught by Andrew Weil and Richard Freeman).

I ignored the StressEraser breathing cues and just let it give me a relaxation score. Here's how the “classic” strategies performed:

Mindfulness meditation: 21 points (feeling kindhearted yes, but not “calm”)

Yoga breathing: 32 points (calm and alert)

Now, here's the real surprise: I decided to try meditation while ALSO following the StressEraser guidance—a “double-decker” relaxation sandwich. Or was I inviting “double trouble”? I did the same with yoga breathing plus StressEraser guidance. Results:

Yoga breathing + StressEraser: 39 points (very deep relaxation and sense of well-being)

Mindfulness meditation + StressEraser: 41 points (very deep relaxation and sense of heartfulness and heightened awareness)

Wow.

Q: Simple yoga breathing worked for you almost as well as the StressEraser, so is this device really necessary?

A: Not necessary, but very welcome, especially before or after stressful situations. And when used WITH your own practices, it can add a huge boost.

Also, I've been doing the above practices for many years. If you have less meditation or yoga experience (or if you just want a little extra assistance now and then), I think you'll find the StressEraser especially valuable.

It's also a great way to introduce your non-meditator friends and family to meditation. I'm going to get one of these for my parents, who aren't very open to learning “Eastern” meditation or breathwork. "

http://store.soundstrue.com/os01096d-review.html

peace

Xiao3 Meng4

02-17-2007, 11:28 PM

Hey Hendrik, Happy New Year to you too! :)

That's an interesting device. I'm glad to hear you've been getting positive results with it. I knew a guy who hooked up a low frequency pulse belt to his lower back to strengthen the kidneys. He said his forms were SUPER solid immediately after his treatments.

I personally shy away from technology at this time. I'm quite honestly not trained in it, and my personal understanding is that you don't need those things to experience and understand Qi. I see where technology may be useful in augmenting certain training practices, but my problem with technology is that we often become dependent on it. How many people do you know that could start a fire without a match or a lighter? Likewise, if people begin using technology to augment their skills, what happens when the technology breaks down and you can't get your "fix"?

I prefer working with a minimum of tools, but I understand how technology has its advantages.

Thanks for sharing your info and perspectives, Hendrik. May you be well fed in the year of the pig. :)

CSP

Hendrik

02-18-2007, 11:36 AM

CSP,

Happy New Year and thanks for sharing.

I always love biofeedback machine because they can verify our state and also could be a good thing for teaching others or making correction on others, and verify others progress if one is teaching. In the ancient time what we cant see but and difficult to communicate, now we could "see" them clearly. With these, lots of ancient internal training could be test drive and confirm if they are effective or even improve.

peace

Xiao3 Meng4

02-18-2007, 01:46 PM

CSP,

Happy New Year and thanks for sharing.

I always love biofeedback machine because they can verify our state and also could be a good thing for teaching others or making correction on others, and verify others progress if one is teaching.

I honestly don't think this is necessary if you have a good teacher who knows what to look for at every phase of training. I know people who can look at a person who's just walked into a room and immediately tell which meridians are excess and which are deficient.

In the ancient time what we cant see but and difficult to communicate, now we could "see" them clearly. With these, lots of ancient internal training could be test drive and confirm if they are effective or even improve.

peace

Using technology to scientifically test Qi Gong methods is ongoing, and exciting (trap! traap!). I guess it's a part of some people's cultures to want hard external concrete evidence that they can take in with the sense they are tied strongest to (most often the eyes) so they can rationalize it with their mind. This continues certain learned, unconscious patterns which exhibit an excess influence on most people. Also, waiting to choose until the information is presented in the way you want it is not Qi Gong, in my opinion. Qi Gong is the making use of any and all information, regardless of form, to adapt to changes in life. It's hard, and we all make mistakes in all kinds of ways. The earlier we can notice the wind change, the more time we have to plan and act appropriately. With that said, if people want an external weathervane, they're welcome to have one.

Oink Oink
CSP

Hendrik

02-18-2007, 03:31 PM

I honestly don't think this is necessary if you have a good teacher who knows what to look for at every phase of training. I know people who can look at a person who's just walked into a room and immediately tell which meridians are excess and which are deficient.--------

IMHO, it is neccesary because unless we have a way of measure what are we doing we dont know what is going on if we are flying blind.

You seems to talk Traditional Chinese Medicine.

Sure there are people who have intuitive, however in Internal art trainig it is a different story.

a good teacher is great however even teacher is no God. s/he cant know everything about one's practice beside first order effect. and also the teacher might not have time for everyone everyday.

Using technology to scientifically test Qi Gong methods is ongoing, and exciting (trap! traap!). -----

It is not a trap, as the chinese said, the True Gold is not afraid of burn by fire. The more one could define and clearly know what is the parameter the better one can reproduce result.

Even in meditation, for example, people all like to make claim, however, there are real and there are fake. So, take their brain wave when they are meditate. see it is entering the proper state or it is all day dreaming?

I guess it's a part of some people's cultures to want hard external concrete evidence that they can take in with the sense they are tied strongest to (most often the eyes) so they can rationalize it with their mind. -----

You are being biased.

One doesnt have to be rationalize. One needs to know clearly the facts and be able to handle them in practicing Neigong or Qigong.

IN chinese it said that One needs to be carefully examine while learning. To be scientific is fitting the philosophy of Carefully examine.

One can reproduce result with stability only if one know all the important key points to handle.

if you disagree with me, then please share with us here, how do you enter into the STATE of accumulate Qi in DAn Dien? how can you know you are doing it right and how can you know you are there? and for how long you could stay in that state?

Using biofeedback machine it is simple, hook up with the machine, go practice the art, then come back to review the track record. one then can know and improve oneself with this records.

This continues certain learned, unconscious patterns which exhibit an excess influence on most people. ------

ImHO, until one could enter the STATE at will and stay there at Will. it is better to focus on oneself.

Also, waiting to choose until the information is presented in the way you want it is not Qi Gong, in my opinion. -------

it is not about choosing.

it is about how do one knows one is doing it correct , in one's practice in handling one's mind and breathing and body, if without any type of indication and measurement?

Qi Gong is the making use of any and all information, regardless of form, to adapt to changes in life. ------

This become fuzzy, this IMHO also is a problem for some general Chinese teaching in general.

Take a tally on those who study internal art, how many know what is Qigong training is about? and how many does actually produce the result?

To summarize what I intend to get across is that

the high tech gear is about can we define what we are practicing and measure what we are practicing without fuzzy and hand waving? otherwise, everyone has thier intepretation and theory but how many got the result?

peace

Xiao3 Meng4

02-18-2007, 05:10 PM

IMHO, it is neccesary because unless we have a way of measure what are we doing we dont know what is going on if we are flying blind.

QI (the relationship between two things) is more qualitative than quantitative. Yes, certain measurements can be done, yet however many you think of, there will always be different measurements that appear (not to mention the statistical analysis of all of these measurements!). Scientists and researchers may spend time developing new technology, and if a machine that can accurately measure the qualitative aspects of Qi is developed, I'll eat whole bulb of garlic. Oh, wait, there's already a tool like that, it's called the human body! ....where's that garlic? ;)

You seems to talk Traditional Chinese Medicine.

..the result of my background, I'm sure.

Sure there are people who have intuitive, however in Internal art trainig it is a different story.

How does one refine one's intuition?

a good teacher is great however even teacher is no God. s/he cant know everything about one's practice beside first order effect. and also the teacher might not have time for everyone everyday.

Self-study is important, and if Biotelemetry is a part of your path, then I wish you the most success possible with it! :cool: :)

It is not a trap, as the chinese said, the True Gold is not afraid of burn by fire. The more one could define and clearly know what is the parameter the better one can reproduce result.

If I was practicing Qi Gong in a park and someone said "hey, you! i wanna test you with machines to see if you're REALLY doing Qi Gong!" I'd say, go ahead. I have no doubt that there will be some readable change. However I do not for a minute believe that this gives me an indication as to my "level" or "state." :) Different practices with different people add up to a wide variety of focused intents. The most useful way these machines could be used might be to match people to the most efficient practices for them. Again, I don't see the need for machines to do this, personally.

You are being biased.

The eyes can deceive, and technology can lead us astray from natural practice, imo. we practice Chi Sao with our eyes closed, don't we? :)

One doesnt have to be rationalize. One needs to know clearly the facts and be able to handle them in practicing Neigong or Qigong.

IN chinese it said that One needs to be carefully examine while learning. To be scientific is fitting the philosophy of Carefully examine.

One can reproduce result with stability only if one know all the important key points to handle.

Agreed.

if you disagree with me, then please share with us here, how do you enter into the STATE of accumulate Qi in DAn Dien? how can you know you are doing it right and how can you know you are there? and for how long you could stay in that state?

I practice standing meditation, mostly. I simply intend on attending to my relationships, be it my relationship with the ground, with my thoughts, with my breathing, my posture, my senses...

I like this analogy for practice. Imagine your body is a train station, your mind its attendant. It is the train station attendant's job simply to keep the station clean and functioning, what with all the people coming and going. At no time is it the attendant's job to get on the train! luckily, the attendant has a personal transporter device, and if for any reason the attendant finds himself on a train (of thought, action, behaviour, emotion) it's simply a matter of paying attention to the station again in order to leave the train and return to their original purpose. No blame, no reason to get fired.

I know if I'm doing it right if i'm tending the station. If I find myself on a train, I know that I'm not at the station any more. I don't time my shifts, I just like working longer and longer ones. :)

Using biofeedback machine it is simple, hook up with the machine, go practice the art, then come back to review the track record. one then can know and improve oneself with this records.

This is where I see the trap occuring, not in scientific investigation. Indulging in quantitative values to determine progress can lead to a) judging oneself too harshly if results are not quickly observable, b) judging others through comparison c) ignoring the qualitative aspects of reality, and d) developing an ego. if the data is necessary for a person's development, either through enforcement or choice, that's fine. Simply understand the risks as much as the benefits.

it is not about choosing.

it is about how do one knows one is doing it correct , in one's practice in handling one's mind and breathing and body, if without any type of indication and measurement?

How do you know you've properly crossed the street, or jumped a stream? How do you know you've properly weaved through a crowd? How do you know you've properly expressed Tan Sao? Was technology involved?

This become fuzzy, this IMHO also is a problem for some general Chinese teaching in general.

Take a tally on those who study internal art, how many know what is Qigong training is about? and how many does actually produce the result?

Fuzziness represents the more qualitative aspects of this discussion. I am not a believer in small packets of Qi flowing through the body like blood cells.

To summarize what I intend to get across is that

the high tech gear is about can we define what we are practicing and measure what we are practicing without fuzzy and hand waving? otherwise, everyone has thier intepretation and theory but how many got the result?

peace

Again, using specific measurements will in my opinion reduce the types of Qi Gong out there, as the ones that develop Qi in unmeasured parts of the spectrum will be seen to be "inneffective."

This sad practice threatened Chinese Culture when the British arrived and applied their "Logical Rationalism" as they had done in so many previous parts of the world. Luckily, Acupuncture Anesthesia was demonstrated on a dog, disproving a placebo effect and sparking a slow but increasingly active road of Western Scientific research on Chinese Medical theory and practice. To start the reductionist process with technology again is a dangerous road that must be considered carefully. Sure, it has its uses, but how much should it be relied on?

Regards,
CSP

Hendrik

02-18-2007, 06:18 PM

QI (the relationship between two things) is more qualitative than quantitative. Yes, certain measurements can be done, yet however many you think of, there will always be different measurements that appear (not to mention the statistical analysis of all of these measurements!). -------

you see, I dont even talk that far out.

just basic, in general as soon as the body is relax enough, the mind is quiet enough, and the breathing is naturally long and deep enough. Then, the Qi will surface.

Now, how is this relax enough, quiet enough, long enough define?
until these stuffs define, how is one going to practice the art?

so, a question for you, how long the breathing is long and deep enough means?

Scientists and researchers may spend time developing new technology, and if a machine that can accurately measure the qualitative aspects of Qi is developed, I'll eat whole bulb of garlic. Oh, wait, there's already a tool like that, it's called the human body! ....where's that garlic? ;) -------

you see, there are machine out there which has already approve by FDA to help people with high blood pressure.

http://www.merrynjose.com/artman/publish/article_752.shtml

this is basic qigung and it makes it so ease to learn. That is very good!

If I was practicing Qi Gong in a park and someone said "hey, you! i wanna test you with machines to see if you're REALLY doing Qi Gong!" I'd say, go ahead. I have no doubt that there will be some readable change. However I do not for a minute believe that this gives me an indication as to my "level" or "state." :)

Different practices with different people add up to a wide variety of focused intents. The most useful way these machines could be used might be to match people to the most efficient practices for them. Again, I don't see the need for machines to do this, personally.-----

you see, you and I have a different view. what my concern is how to make things simple and ease for others to learn, progress, and benifit from the old ancestors' work.

I like this analogy for practice. Imagine your body is a train station, your mind its attendant. It is the train station attendant's job simply to keep the station clean and functioning, what with all the people coming and going. At no time is it the attendant's job to get on the train! luckily, the attendant has a personal transporter device, and if for any reason the attendant finds himself on a train (of thought, action, behaviour, emotion) it's simply a matter of paying attention to the station again in order to leave the train and return to their original purpose. No blame, no reason to get fired.

I know if I'm doing it right if i'm tending the station. If I find myself on a train, I know that I'm not at the station any more. I don't time my shifts, I just like working longer and longer ones. :) ------

take a EEG scan on you brain wave and see if you are performing as you think you are.

This sad practice threatened Chinese Culture when the British arrived and applied their "Logical Rationalism" as they had done in so many previous parts of the world. Luckily, Acupuncture Anesthesia was demonstrated on a dog, disproving a placebo effect and sparking a slow but increasingly active road of Western Scientific research on Chinese Medical theory and practice. To start the reductionist process with technology again is a dangerous road that must be considered carefully. Sure, it has its uses, but how much should it be relied on? ------

there is nothing wrong with logical and there also nothing wrong with non rationalisation, because no one thing fit all.

British doesnt threaten the chinese culture. Chinese has strick Logic teaching as old as the great wall of china by Han Fei Tze.

What I am posting is just about clear about the cause and effect of any phenomenon. The IChing is also teaching about Cause and Effect, or the composition of Yin and Yang will transform or transcent or manifesting different phenomenon.

Thus, I dont see what is dangerous in using all aid we can get to verify the cause and effect of a phenomenon and thus we can handle it better.

Peace
Hendrik

mantis108

02-18-2007, 07:05 PM

Your last post to Hendrik is very well put IMHO.

Hi Hendrik,

What I am posting is just about clear about the cause and effect of any phenomenon. The IChing is also teaching about Cause and Effect, or the composition of Yin and Yang will transform or transcent or manifesting different phenomenon.

I am just wondering how do you come to this conclusion about the IChing? Yin and Yang are attributes or archtypical symbols. By that I mean, you can not physcially show there is a substantial or tangible thing, like a friut for example, that we can touch and taste and call it Yin. So how could Yin and Yang possibly transform, transcent or manifesting phenomena?

Warm regards

Mantis108

Hendrik

02-18-2007, 09:45 PM

I am just wondering how do you come to this conclusion about the IChing?----

I forgot how. hehehe :D

Xiao3 Meng4

02-19-2007, 03:22 AM

so, a question for you, how long the breathing is long and deep enough means?

Every breath should be natural. No particular quantitative amounts are needed - simply follow the breath instead of leading it. Work on sensing and relaxing any tense areas of the body (or the spectrum) while breathing naturally.
Practice breathing in proper posture with an attentive mind and the breath will naturally adapt in relation to the posture and relaxedness. Breathe in as much as is natural, and out as much as is natural. NO FORCING. Feel what you feel, and things will fall into place. Timing the breath within a form is more difficult in that the breath is more susceptible to forcing, but working with "one expression, one breath" breathing can be useful and invigorating.

you see, there are machine out there which has already approve by FDA to help people with high blood pressure.

this is basic qigung and it makes it so ease to learn. That is very good!

This is a certain type of Qi Gong, yes, but certainly not the only type. My issue with technology and the reductionist process is that it has as its central theme the mantra of "only this."
In my experience, though, Chinese Medicine has the mantra of "and that, too." It's inclusive rather than reductionist, which is why I oppose the use of reductionist practices using quantitative and technological means. This is simply my viewpoint.

you see, you and I have a different view. what my concern is how to make things simple and ease for others to learn, progress, and benifit from the old ancestors' work.

Our viewpoints may differ, but not on that level.

take a EEG scan on you brain wave and see if you are performing as you think you are.

It's not something I'm adverse to. If I happen to have the opportunity I'll definitely give it a try. Again, it's not something I need to seek out to prove anything to myself... is it something you need me to do to prove something to you?

there is nothing wrong with logical and there also nothing wrong with non rationalisation, because no one thing fit all.

British doesnt threaten the chinese culture. Chinese has strick Logic teaching as old as the great wall of china by Han Fei Tze.

Britain is not threatening China now. It did, at one point, try to assert its cultural values (including its medical and scientific views) on the Chinese population, however Chinese logic, theory and practice was sound enough that it withstood the challenge.

Thus, I dont see what is dangerous in using all aid we can get to verify the cause and effect of a phenomenon and thus we can handle it better.

Qi Gong is a wholistic qualitative practice, not a specific quantitative practice. It's not dangerous to use technology, it's simply risky. If you understand, accept, and attend to the risks of what it is you're adding to the practice, then by all means, add it if you see value to it.

CSP

Hendrik

02-20-2007, 10:22 PM

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=686

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=695

Enjoy

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 06:01 PM

we have discuss lots about the activation of Ren and Du medirians.

Now, I would like to share what is it. so when one does SLT/SNT one will know what Nature means.

Honestly, This type of practice has its risk if not being doing it right. One needs an experience sifu to coach and make correction if anything is side track.

However, in my decades of research I have found a western reserach proven teaching which is fit to the most basic begineer step of activation of the Ren and Du medirian. Which could let us to have some entry level experience and benifit safely.

The teaching here is the basic of the handling of Ren and Du Mai.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780553374438

pay attention to the breathing and to the spine handling.

Neigong and Qigong needed both handling. Those who do Nim Lik will benifit alots because the spine is not a fix stuff. Thus, Dai Gong needs to be naturally adapting to the spine's movements.

in fact, even when one is doing the heaven character zhuang of emei 12 zhuang. the instruction of the teaching above also applied.

-----------------

ABOUT THIS BOOK

Conscious Breathing draws on more than twenty years of research and practice to present a simple yet comprehensive program that can be used every day to improve energy, mental clarity, and physical health.

As the essential life-force of the body, the breath influences how we feel on every level.

But many traditional breathing programs are limited by esoteric or cultlike elements. Pioneering therapist Gay Hendricks has refined the most important practices into a mainstream healing tool that can provide dramatic benefits--ranging from lowered blood pressure and pain reduction to elimination of depression and anxiety--in as little as ten minutes a day.

At the core of the book are eight key breathing exercises, fully illustrated, with step-by-step instructions, plus the "short form" ten-minute breathing program. Additional chapters provide breathing techniques for special concerns, including: Breathing to aid in trauma release and recovery from addictions. Treatment of asthma and other respiratory problems. .......... Improved concentration and stamina in sports.

------------------------------------------

Hope that this information help you to make good progress in you SLT/SNT training.

Have an excellent basic body/mind/breathing and a Good kind heart and the rest will manifest naturally.

Enjoy