Aikijujutsu

[Stranger]

Do you see the internal in it? Do you feel that a Neijia practitioner could benefit from their training?

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Kumkuat]

The only Japanese art that can be categorized as internal is Aikido not aikijujitsu even though Aikido came from aikijujitsu.

[Stranger]

How about taijutsu?

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[shaolinboxer]

Taijutsu, like anything else realted to ninjitsu, is murky....

Aikijujitsu does have an internal aspect to their technique (although not all techniques), but focuses on more agressive, and perhaps destructive, applications. It was this foundation that Ueshiba built upon (hence the "aiki").

If you are looking to study aikijujitsu, becareful... there are many many fakers.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[TaoBoxer]

The most common Aiki Ju Jitsu lineage in the US is Daito Ryu. Most all of what is taught here is some derivitive of that...including AikiDo. I studied AikiDo and Aiki Ju Jitsu for abt 4 years before I came to Internal Kung Fu. I have recently been considering this very question because when I go back to Boston....I may not find a good Ba Gua school....but I know that my Aiki Sensei in Mass is top-notch.

First of all, saying Aiki Ju Jitsu is harder than Aikido is not accurate. The circles in Aiki ju jitsu are MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller than most Aikido. I would say AJJ is much more Yang than AD...but not "harder." Besides...in Daito there are 3 levels of training... Ju Jitsu....hard, full-on locks and breaks...AJJ, more flow and using the soft principles, and then Aiki...which is just this near-magical thing they do. People just launch....... I think just by practice alone they learn fa jing and peng jing.

As for being usefull to an Internal stylist, I think the Aiki arts were a perfect bridge for me between the karate and Tae Kwon Do I had done, and the Internal stuff I do now. It helped me loosen up a lot. It taught me flow and non-resistance.

The second thing they do "better" than some internal schools is PRACTICE. You spend all nite in an Aiki school DOING the techniques. I have often thought of teaching in that manner.....just continual repetition of techniques. That is the only way to really really perfect it anyway. Form class would be seperate...... Of course then you get into the idea that partner practice actually INHIBITS power generation. In Hsing I they say solo practice teaches you to do things you should NEVER do to a classmate.

Still.....I wouldn't call Aiki arts internal. They talk abt Ki on occasion, but I really don't think they understand it. It is just a buzz-word. Aiki arts are definetly SOFT, but I do not think of them as being particularly INTERNAL.

just my opinion.....

[Stranger]

"Taijutsu, like anyhting else related to ninjitsu, is murky...."

Please explain "murky".

Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not related to ninjitsu, however it is "related" to ninjutsu, in that three of the nine Bujinkan ryu contain these skills. Don't mean to bust your stones, but it is the faux-ninjas that tend to gravitate towards that spelling. ;)

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Zhin]

http://koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html

[shaolinboxer]

The article that Shin points out reflects what I mean by "murky".

Spelling it with a U does not add any validity, but I conceed the point.

;)

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Stranger]

Well, I don't know enough about the Bujinkan to go on the defense, but I have read info that contradicts some of what is said in that article. I don't know. :confused:

Either way, the question was along the line of wheter or not taijutsu was internal, not whether or not it was traditional bujutsu. If aikido can be classified as "internal", obviously the age and lineage of a MA does not determine whether or not it is "internal".

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[shaolinboxer]

You are correct of course, age and lineage has nothing to do with whether a style is internal.

Sorry to divert the topic.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Stranger]

No problem.

The "u" vs. "i" spelling for -jutsu is a pet peeve. I harsh on the BJJ guys about that all the time. Sorry if it came off bad, I was just triggered. :D

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Zhin]

I'd be interested to hear about the contradictions. Koryu.com and the people that publish there are pretty rigorous about the standards they have for publication and research. Most, if not all of them live in Japan full time.

A friend of mine studies at an X-Kan, and I spent a significant period of time researching it myself. What I've found is the single document submitted to the Japanese government for status as a Koryu, and a whole bunch of people quoting each other.

I'm sure somewhere out there, there's someone who can fight using the x-kans, I just haven't met them yet.

[Stranger]

Like I said, I am not he person to come to the Bujinkan's defense when it comes to lineage. I don't know. I am not in the Bujinkan, I don't train taijutsu or ninjutsu. I have done some training in JMA, which is why I was interested in this topic.

I don't want to be cast as the defender, but this is what I saw....


1) the article kept referring to the nine schools of ninjutsu taught by Hatsumi. I have never heard of more than three ryu which were ninjutsu according to the Bujinkan.

2) He mentioned how Shinden Fundo Ryu (sp.) had a phony date of origin because it predated any known ryu. Consider that the name changed. The style was brought to Japan by a Chinese kung fu teacher. Maybe it was taught as kung fu and therefore was not a ryu for a long time. (read that in a BB mag on the kicks of Budo Taijutsu- which are largely drawn from this ryu).

Because the origin of Hatsumi's Shindon Fundo ryu predates the "warring period" there would be NO NEED for skills traditionally associated with the ninja?
To which I would counter: A) that isn't one of the ninjutsu ryu B) Are those skills ever not needed in a violent world?
I don't know when the ryu were created (he may be right), but that is a bit of shaky logic in my eyes (they need to base their logic on firmer ground).

4) I have read where Hatsumi stated that ninja and samurai WERE often one and the same. No apparent contradiction as the author of the article suggested.

5) I could have sworn that I read on e-budo that all but the three ninjutsu ryu were formally recognized as traditional ryu. Maybe the poster was wrong, maybe I have not recalled properly.

I'm not saying they're wrong, but when I see stuff like the above....

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[This message was edited by Stranger on 10-05-01 at 05:04 PM.]

[Zhin]

Hey Stranger,

Don't worry, I was just curious. I'll try to answer as I can.

1. This quote seems to indicate they were aware it was 3 of the nine.


Q: Sensei Hatsumi never synthesized espionage techniques into Ninjutsu. Sensei Hatsumi is soke in 9 Ninjutsu schools: TOGAKURE RYU NINJUTSU 34TH SOKE, GYOKKO RYU KOSSHIJUTSU 28TH SOKE, KUKISHINDEN RYU HAPPO HIKENJUTSU 26TH SOKE.

Dr. Friday: These are just 3 out of 9. Problem is that if he is the 34th soke it means logically that there where 33 more sokes before him. If this school were a modern one it means they'd have to switch every almost three years which didn't happen.


2. Hmmm. Yi Chuan has been in Japan for a very short time, but is already being referred to a ryu.

3.


The Takamatsu-Hatsumi genealogy for the Shinden Fudo-ryu traces things back 25 generations to the mid 11th century, which is at least 400 years earlier than any historian accepts the existence of any bugei ryuha--and at least two centuries before the scale and organization of warfare in Japan would make espionage activity valuable enough for anyone to seriously consider developing methods for carrying it out.


I suppose this on depends on who you read "bugei ryuha". To me it implies schools created to teach very specific martial techniques. It does not mean that no form of warcraft existed, just that it had either not been formalized, or no records of them existed. Hatsumi's claims are not verifiable, and don't qualify as a record.

4. Seems neither here nor there. I can stand with it.

5. Hmm. I can't say anything to that either. Last I checked, they were not recognized. That was about a year ago.

[TaoBoxer]

Not that it means anything, but is Hatsumi and the Bujinkan recognized as being "official" by the Japanese Government?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Hmmm...i have heard on several occasions that Ueshiba during his trips in (inner) Mongolia has been in contact with baguazhang and has been very interested by it...but these claims came mainly from bagua sources and never (or seldom) from japanese ones...anyone has sources or comments on that??

Speaking of Mongolia, I believe that Hatsumi is perfectly legit, if I remember correctly one of his masters was a ninjutsu legend, To****sugu Takamatsu, who was dubbed "the tiger of Mongolia".
He's a man of equal prestige (Takamatsu) compared to Fujita Saiko, and that's quite a credential...

[TaoBoxer]

Actually the first time I heard that was from an Aiki guy. I have mentioned this in 1 or 2 places, but I will tell what little I know abt this.

If you look at footage of Ueshiba doing Aiki Bu Jitsu (what he taught AFTER Daito and BEFORE AIkido) it is pretty straight forward, linear ju jitsu. Very good ju jitsau....but JJ none the less. Then, fast forward a decade or 2 and watch him doing his aikido. Much bigger, rounder, and a lot more flow. He even throws a toe in and toe out on occasion.

In the Aiki Journal an article was written abt Ueshiba and his involvement in the Omoto sect of Buddhism. It says that at some point in his life he went to China to seek converts to Omoto and was jailed In the Tianjin area. Tianjin was then as it is now second only to Beijing in the amount of Ba Gua goin down. It is also a coastal city and a large port. I have heard 2 versions of the story. 1: on the boat either going to or coming from Tianjin Ueshiba had his hat handed to him by a young guy doing Ba Gua. 2: While seeking converts to Omoto he was jailed in Tianjin and had the chance to observe people practicing Ba Gua either before, during, or after his incarceration.

Of course it is totally possible that the circularity of AikiDo was just a natural evolution for Ueshiba but.... Along with technique, the legacy of many martial arts is their stories.

Bill

[wujidude]

Bruce Frantzis speculates on the connections between baguazhang and aikido, based on Ueshiba's time in China with Desiguchi, in his book "The Power of Internal Martial Arts". It's an interesting idea, but any evidence that Ueshiba learned any baguazhang even by observation is speculative at best. Frantzis did study with and observe Ueshiba in Japan for a brief period (he has a black belt in aikido), and 12-15 years later engaged in an extensive study of baguazhang with Liu Hung Chieh.

It seems to me a much more credible source for any flowing, evasive maneuvers and koubu/baibu-type footwork was Ueshiba's extensive training and practice in sword techniques. One very interesting book comparing aikido taijutsu and kenjutsu techniques is by Gaku Homma. I highly recommend this book for the photography and explanation involved. Mitsugi Saotome also has good insights into this, through his seminars or videotapes.

Just my opinion.

[Zhin]

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to track down information about Moka No Tora, beyond sources provided by the x-kans, and have never found any.

[TaoBoxer]

Well.... I have seen the books that you're refering to, and I have studied a little kenjitsu as well.

I am not making up the fact that Ueshiba was jailed in China....and that isn't a "chinese" story. It was reported by Stanly Pranin of Aiki News.

The simplest answer is usually the correct answer. One way or ther other, it doesn't effect how good Ueshiba was.