martial arts compulsory in school

[golden arhat]

who else thinks its a good idea ?

[laugarkuen]

What in Oldham? :eek:

Man that's scary lol

[Black Jack II]

Not here.

If its in the west it should be wrestling or boxing if anything.

[SPJ]

it is elective in Taiwan.

or extracurriculum activity.

maybe it is a culture thing.

kids attend TKD classes outside of the schools more than anythine else.

--

[Sifu at Large]

www.kick-start.org

Mr. Norris' charity, while not compulsory, is doing a lot of good for the youngsters in Texas, and he hopes to expand beyond Texas soon.

[Black Jack II]

Elective is different. I have no problem with that.

But for compulsory. I think it would be a bad idea. Far to many traditional ma nutcases out there now who don't have a cule to what they are doing, and who have specific agendas on teaching culture specific morals and so forth. I don't need no sinophile teaching my kid hidden messages through his class.

In the very-very off chance it ever happened, which in todays pc world it would not, it should be a Occidental tradition.

[laugarkuen]

There are not that many schools I know of that will risk you actually having contact with the kids.

I've tried to teach kickboxing where all we were allowed to do was drills in the air and on pads. No fighting and no contact.

It was more like boxercise with no music :rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

lol in oldham definitley
could u imagine werneth on a saturday
lol

but yeah alot of kids dont have patience i suppose
and who would teach
the government would have to regulate it like china does with wushu and make it purely a physical thing

[SPJ]

kids are always just having fun.

or at least I was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooDrx4O4Pl8

some school children practicing Pi Gua first routine after one week of learning during winter break.

:)

[SevenStar]

Not here.

If its in the west it should be wrestling or boxing if anything.


agreed. I would also add judo to that list.

We do have a school here which has capoeira classes as part of phys-ed. My friend worked some deal out with the city school system.

[golden arhat]

wrestling is already pretty common in alot of schools
most schools dont here but i box with my P.E teacher

[Black Jack II]

I would also add judo to that list.

I could see something like that. Judo has become so westernized because of its sportive aspect it may translate to the students well. It's been here in the west for a long time and it's not full of mysticism. Plus you seldom see the type of ritualistic behaviour in judo as you do in some of its eastern brethen.

[The Xia]

I don't think that making martial arts compulsory in school is a good idea at all. Frankly, martial arts aren't everyone's cup of tea.

[Mas Judt]

I had Judo in High School for P.E.

It's an excellent idea - I'd add Muay Thai and Shuai Chiao to the approved list.

Basically, anything with a sportive aspect so the young males can be taught to channel thier aggression, and put it into a context of rules - something sadly missing in today's rudderless youth. Getting beat down teaches respect. Learning how to pick yourself back up and play more teaches character. Learning to win teaches goal setting. Sounds perfect to me. I can't figure out how today's contact-less MA teach ANYTHING of value.

And also teach them not to be such pu$$ies. It's a dangerous world, our children should be ready for it.

Nothing like a Catholic brother putting you on your @ss in the ring. (as long as he doesn't, ummm turn you over or anything.)

Discipline = Freedom.

[Mas Judt]

But you know Black Jack, instead of MA, we'll probably get a 'magickal thinking' or 'Being a Good Dhimmi 101' class...

[Black Jack II]

Discipline = Freedom.

F@ck. Thats a sweet way of putting it.:)


we'll probably get a 'magickal thinking' or 'Being a Good Dhimmi 101' class...

LOL, kinda my stray point in keeping clear of a lot of the Eastern martial methods in relation to anything with kids and the words compulsory in it. But the one's with a sporting aspect I could see easy. It's harder to have koolaid in those arts as its often just all laid out on the mat.

Savate or Sambo would be good for that list as well.

[firepalm]

There is a Karate instructor here in Vancouver that teaches a course that is done in a couple of the high school Phys Ed classes. Personally I see no problem there but a few years ago this individual starting telling some of the kids that were doing Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do and other martial arts outside of high school that all other martial arts were crap and not as good as Karate and such. And this is where I think you run into a problem, I personally think that this individual saw these high school Phys Ed Karate courses as a way of streaming kids into his outside school.

Not sure if he still does it but I know that one parent went to the school and complained as he wanted his boy to stay with his Chinatown Kung Fu club (one of those family fraternal organizations). He was told by the high school the teacher would be told not to do this.

Point a instructor that is given such an opportunity to teach through the public could in fact be motivated to bring students into his private club. No real harm there but what if he was pilferring students from out of 'your' club?

My two cents! :cool:

[The Xia]

That's an interesting point you bring in firepalm. I really see MA in schools as a big can of worms. One point is do you trust schools to ensure that they are bringing in good stuff and not crap? I don't. Still, I see nothing wrong with having a MA club especially on a university level. What I wouldn't want is compulsory MA in schools. Face it, many people wouldn't want to do it so why should they be forced to?

[Mr Punch]

I think it's a great idea.

Boxing.
Wrestling/Judo.

One of the two sometimes depending on what's available.

They're not esoteric: just good, practical, spine-building PE, so there shouldn't be any more of a problem with perverts or people with agenda than you usually get with PE instructors.

Having a huge list like Muay Thai, savate, shiu chiao etc is a waste of time though IMO.

For one, how are you going to give the kids the choice? The kids wouldn't be old enough to decide for themselves. I know I know a lot of people are going to say, "My son decided he wanted to do BJJ when he was three and he's done really well," etc etc, but a) I think a lot of kids have too much autonomy nowadays (and sure I believe in letting your kids find things out experientially like they don't like judo or something, but I still believe people pussify their kids too much by letting them do what they want).

Plus, while your kid is of course, as good as the little baby Jesus and as wise as the Buddha, let's not forget that by the rule of the 90 %ers, 90% of kids are stupid, evil or lazy.

For another thing, it means you have the bother of regulating the thousands of MA teachers out there. What, are they going to come and teach at the school on a part-time basis? Impossible for many teachers who aren't even pros. And it means there are going to be more fruits so a greater chance of fruit influence. If you just keep it to PE teachers who can already teach these things (or do courses to do so themselves) and a few certified professionals it becomes a lot easier nationwide.

[Mr Punch]

Oh yeah of course, I didn't think about the problems Xia and Firepalm thought of, because in the UK the schools are still state-run or at least, that kind of thing would be state-regulated.

I'm not going to start arguments on the pros and cons of those particular education systems, but in this case state schools would seem to be a pro: no private MA teachers, no private schools with agenda. Of course there are private schools in the UK, but they usually follow the state schools' example as far as regulation goes, unless they're really rich in which case they're probably (quite literally) buggered anyway! :eek: :D

[FuXnDajenariht]

how bout they teach kids math science and reading properly first? ;)

[Mas Judt]

Punch - I don't think anyone saw a list at one school - just methods that would be acceptable.

Math, Science, English, History... I hire a LOT of college grads and I think Logic and Rhetoric DESPERATLY need to be added to the curriculum.

[AJM]

P.E. is as important as academics for the overall development of a child in my opinion. Martial arts should be an option in P.E. .

[Black Jack II]

Before the feminization of the schools it actually was in a number of locations.

Boy's would take greco-roman or freestyle wrestling in gym. Same with the boy scouts who at one time did shooting, boxing and quarterstaff.

[The Xia]

P.E. is as important as academics for the overall development of a child in my opinion. Martial arts should be an option in P.E. .
In all fairness, I don't see P.E. classes working. Physically fit kids are physically fit and out of shape kids are out of shape, P.E. or not. Honestly, do you know one kid who got in shape because of gym class? I don’t. They also cost money and are havens for trouble. Health problems and discipline problems occur big time in gym class. If you worked or know someone who has worked in a school in a bad area, ask what happens in gym classes. It’s probably not a politically correct standpoint, but in my opinion, P.E. is a waste of time and money at best and at worst causes trouble.

[SevenStar]

What I wouldn't want is compulsory MA in schools. Face it, many people wouldn't want to do it so why should they be forced to?

MJ answered that already:



Basically, anything with a sportive aspect so the young males can be taught to channel thier aggression, and put it into a context of rules - something sadly missing in today's rudderless youth. Getting beat down teaches respect. Learning how to pick yourself back up and play more teaches character. Learning to win teaches goal setting. Sounds perfect to me. I can't figure out how today's contact-less MA teach ANYTHING of value.


I forced my oldest kid into martial arts. Now, he loves them, but he has learned a lot about himself as well. My youngest will also train.

[SevenStar]

In all fairness, I don't see P.E. classes working. Physically fit kids are physically fit and out of shape kids are out of shape, P.E. or not. Honestly, do you know one kid who got in shape because of gym class? I don’t. They also cost money and are havens for trouble. Health problems and discipline problems occur big time in gym class. If you worked or know someone who has worked in a school in a bad area, ask what happens in gym classes. It’s probably not a politically correct standpoint, but in my opinion, P.E. is a waste of time and money at best and at worst causes trouble.


I disagree, especially in this day and age. When I was in elementary, we had p.e. DAILY. now, my kid only has PE once per week. an hour of exercise every day, vs. one hour, once per week? surely there would be a difference in fitness level. In addition, kids are now more apt to be couch potatoes, taking away from more exercise time, contributing to them being even more obese.

discipline problems occur in gym if the teacher allows it. That is an issue that should be pretty easy to solve. Health problems won't be increased any more than they already are. kids breathing on eachother, wiping their noses with their hand and then touching other kids and their stuff, puttin their mouths on the spout of the water fountain, etc. these are things that happen regardless of PE, which is why sickness always runs rampant in schools. Heck one could probably argue that PE would HELP counter the sickness by strengthening their immune systems.

investing in the health of our future is never a waste of money.

[Mas Judt]

Unfortunaely education is going the way of health care:

A bevy of over-paid under-performing beuacrats sucking the money awat from those that do the work. Even worse are the teacher unions who fight tooth and nail for cushy conditions and to never be held accountable.

We are being scammed at gunpoint by the school system.

[Becca]

Before the feminization of the schools it actually was in a number of locations.

Boy's would take greco-roman or freestyle wrestling in gym. Same with the boy scouts who at one time did shooting, boxing and quarterstaff.
I remember that. The boys got to wrestle. Us girls got "daning styles of the world." :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Nothing should be cumpulsory in P.E. except that you have to do something physical. Many kids would stick with it into adulthood if they weren't forced into physical activity they hated as kids, I think.

[Mas Judt]

Well, judging by my local health club Becca, today it would be replaced with aerobic pole dancing.

Kinda scary...

We had coed Judo... Judo works okay for that.... the girls were given the option to Randori with boys or girls only.

[The Xia]

I disagree, especially in this day and age. When I was in elementary, we had p.e. DAILY. now, my kid only has PE once per week. an hour of exercise every day, vs. one hour, once per week? surely there would be a difference in fitness level. In addition, kids are now more apt to be couch potatoes, taking away from more exercise time, contributing to them being even more obese.
I don't think that gym classes have anything to do with today's obesity rates. I think that has more to do with the fact that most kids don't play outside and get as much physical activity as they did in the past. I mean sure we have organized sports but back in the day kids played outside amongst themselves. I don't think that happens much anymore. I feel that has to do with community changes.

discipline problems occur in gym if the teacher allows it. That is an issue that should be pretty easy to solve. Health problems won't be increased any more than they already are. kids breathing on eachother, wiping their noses with their hand and then touching other kids and their stuff, puttin their mouths on the spout of the water fountain, etc. these are things that happen regardless of PE, which is why sickness always runs rampant in schools. Heck one could probably argue that PE would HELP counter the sickness by strengthening their immune systems.
I think it's more complicated then saying it's all on the teacher. There is a crisis in this country's school systems. Public education in urban areas is in disarray. I don't think you can blame the discipline problems that occur in city schools on the teachers. As far as discipline problems in gym classes, I can illustrate what goes on. First of all, locker rooms are a major issue. Everything from fights to dealing drugs can go on there. As far as health problems, that's separate from discipline but just as important. You have to understand that not every kid is sanitary. The locker rooms are havens of germs. One of the worst ideas I heard of for schools is mandatory swimming classes. I call that making a germ soup. And don't even get me started on public showers! That's not only a health issue, but it also opens up doors to discipline problems. As for P.E. helping counter sickness through giving kids exercise, I don't know if you've seen the average gym class but it's not exactly what I'd call a good workout session. In a well funded school, I normally see all sorts of well organized games and activities but nothing strenuous. In poorly funded schools, I usually see a strategy of "toss ball to group." Although, I’ve also seen that latter strategy in well funded schools.

investing in the health of our future is never a waste of money.
Noble sentiment, but I don't know if P.E. class is really an investment in the health of our future.

[The Xia]

MJ answered that already:




I forced my oldest kid into martial arts. Now, he loves them, but he has learned a lot about himself as well. My youngest will also train.
I will not deny the benefits of martial arts but they aren't for everybody. Sure, some kids that are forced to do it wind up liking it but there are others who wind up quitting. As for the character building aspect, I think that only occurs if the individual makes that happen. If you take what you get from training and apply it that way, then that will happen. If you don't, it will not.

[SevenStar]

I will not deny the benefits of martial arts but they aren't for everybody. Sure, some kids that are forced to do it wind up liking it but there are others who wind up quitting. As for the character building aspect, I think that only occurs if the individual makes that happen. If you take what you get from training and apply it that way, then that will happen. If you don't, it will not.

sure, some will quit. but they will remember what they learned, from a growth perspective. I quit playing football. doesn't mean I forgot the lessons learned from playing, though.

[The Xia]

I also tend to think that some people that might have liked it later get turned off to it early because they were forced into it when they didn't want it.

[PangQuan]

the parents are responsible for the physical and mental well being of thier children.

either:

a) the parents arent trying hard enough.

b) the parents dont care enough.


i dont buy the whole money issue deal. ive seen some of the poorest kids very well behaved with all the single moms resources going to a well fed child and good morals.

likewise ive seen the sh!ttiest little kids that have parents with plenty of resources to go around.


this all falls on the parents.

some people are not meant to breed, however modern society no longer adheres to survival of the fittest....the weak will continue to breed in abundance.

if your school does not offer a physical program that meets what you see as needs for your children, do something about it on non school time.

problem solved.

[SevenStar]

I don't think that gym classes have anything to do with today's obesity rates. I think that has more to do with the fact that most kids don't play outside and get as much physical activity as they did in the past. I mean sure we have organized sports but back in the day kids played outside amongst themselves. I don't think that happens much anymore. I feel that has to do with community changes.

I think it's more complicated then saying it's all on the teacher. There is a crisis in this country's school systems. Public education in urban areas is in disarray. I don't think you can blame the discipline problems that occur in city schools on the teachers. As far as discipline problems in gym classes, I can illustrate what goes on. First of all, locker rooms are a major issue. Everything from fights to dealing drugs can go on there. As far as health problems, that's separate from discipline but just as important. You have to understand that not every kid is sanitary. The locker rooms are havens of germs. One of the worst ideas I heard of for schools is mandatory swimming classes. I call that making a germ soup. And don't even get me started on public showers! That's not only a health issue, but it also opens up doors to discipline problems. As for P.E. helping counter sickness through giving kids exercise, I don't know if you've seen the average gym class but it's not exactly what I'd call a good workout session. In a well funded school, I normally see all sorts of well organized games and activities but nothing strenuous. In poorly funded schools, I usually see a strategy of "toss ball to group." Although, I’ve also seen that latter strategy in well funded schools.

Noble sentiment, but I don't know if P.E. class is really an investment in the health of our future.

so you really don't think 5 hours of exercise per week would contribute to the overall health of a child? that's probably as much as some people on this forum get...

discipline in general is largely a parental issue. But that's not what you said. You said there would be discipline problems in PE, as if it's different the rest of the day. violence or drug dealing in a locker room is no different from what you would see anywhere else in school. Wanna change it? have the teachers in the locker rooms during changing time. PE is as strenuous as the city's curriculum allows. When I was in school, we played tennis, soccer, volleyball, baseball, basketball, football... I do agree with you on swimming though, I would not have that. PE programs need to be re-structured. LOL, let me, ford prefect and ironfist set up the program...

[The Xia]

The urban public school systems are connected to the areas which they serve. These kids are raised in really bad environments. I agree that good parents go a long way in helping a kid not fall victim to it but it's not easy and sometimes the environment is too strong and all too many times good homes just aren't there. It's sad but true. There are all sorts of solutions that politicians propose and schools try, but the problems are still there. Frankly, these schools reflect the areas they serve. I don't think you can cure the education problem without curing the neighborhood problem. How do you do that? I don’t know.

[The Xia]

so you really don't think 5 hours of exercise per week would contribute to the overall health of a child? that's probably as much as some people on this forum get...

discipline in general is largely a parental issue. But that's not what you said. You said there would be discipline problems in PE, as if it's different the rest of the day. violence or drug dealing in a locker room is no different from what you would see anywhere else in school. Wanna change it? have the teachers in the locker rooms during changing time. PE is as strenuous as the city's curriculum allows. When I was in school, we played tennis, soccer, volleyball, baseball, basketball, football... I do agree with you on swimming though, I would not have that. PE programs need to be re-structured.
Well 5 hours a week would do these kids some good if they actually did some real exercise instead of what I usually see. As far as the discipline problems, you can talk to people who work in urban schools about it. As I said, I see the problem as the whole environment although parents are involved in that. The discipline problems do seem to occur more in gym classes then in other areas (although the cafeteria isn't too great either). I agree with having teachers in the locker rooms. In fact, I was going to put that in my original post but didn't because I figured I should just state the problem at this point. Maybe a re-vamped P.E. program would collapse or maybe it would work. I can't say. But I can tell you one thing, I think the current one just plain sucks. I think the swimming pool idea is a good example of where the minds of the powers that be in education are at.

LOL, let me, ford prefect and ironfist set up the program...
Why not elect the team of knifefighter/Abel? Imagine how that would go! :eek: :D

[SevenStar]

Well 5 hours a week would do these kids some good if they actually did some real exercise instead of what I usually see. As far as the discipline problems, you can talk to people who work in urban schools about it. As I said, I see the problem as the whole environment although parents are involved in that. The discipline problems do seem to occur more in gym classes then in other areas (although the cafeteria isn't too great either). I agree with having teachers in the locker rooms. In fact, I was going to put that in my original post but didn't because I figured I should just state the problem at this point. Maybe a re-vamped P.E. program would collapse or maybe it would work. I can't say. But I can tell you one thing, I think the current one just plain sucks. I think the swimming pool idea is a good example of where the minds of the powers that be in education are at.

I grew up in one of those environments, so did several other people on this forum that I know of... proper parenting is a powerful thing. I've been offered every drug under the sun, gangs tried to recruit me... telling them no will get you into fights - several - and I turned out okay - for the most part. You'll probably have a discipline issue anywhere that the supervision is lacking - cafeteria, PE, immediately after school lets out and in the case of younger kids, recess.

I do agree that the current program sucks. I would love to change it. right now, my son has PE once per week, and they either just play around or play basketball. It was nothing like this 20 years ago.


Why not elect the team of knifefighter/Abel? Imagine how that would go! :eek: :D

LOL :D

[SevenStar]

The urban public school systems are connected to the areas which they serve. These kids are raised in really bad environments. I agree that good parents go a long way in helping a kid not fall victim to it but it's not easy and sometimes the environment is too strong and all too many times good homes just aren't there. It's sad but true. There are all sorts of solutions that politicians propose and schools try, but the problems are still there. Frankly, these schools reflect the areas they serve. I don't think you can cure the education problem without curing the neighborhood problem. How do you do that? I don’t know.

that actually makes a stronger case for combat sports in school, and also as an extracurricular activity. In the tma that I've trained, I never really had a close connection with the instructors, but combat sports, where someone is training you specifically to fight, a bond is created. you really are like family. Now that I coach, I've gotten the same bond with my guys and girls. that is additional help in keeping kids off of the streets. some tma guys have a similar bond with their instructors.

As far as curing the education problem, that IS entirely school / government related. who says they have to cater to the area they serve? I'm supposed to get a cruddy education because I live in the hood? that's ludicrous. I'll use my city as an example. We have a murder rate 15 times higher than the national average, if I remember correctly.

The government ALWAYS talks about how there is not enough money, and programs need to be cut. What is the first thing cut? EDUCATION. how smart is that? you don't have money, so you sacrifice the kids' education?? Then you build a multi million dollar pyramid that 13 years later NOBODY uses anymore, even though the facility isn't paid for? what do you do after that? Bring an nba team to the city. Of course, they HAVE to have a new facility to play in, so you build a multi million dollar facility - but I thought we didn't have any money?? so now we spend millions paying player's salary and paying for the facility. Of course, this brings tourists, so now we have to PAY MORE MONEY and expand the downtown area. Now, since the state has a football team and our stadium is old, why not build a new stadium, then maybe we can host some of the state's nfl games. Of course, this stadium will also cost several million, not to mention that the old one will now most likely no longer be used.

In the meantime, at least five schools were closed down this year and consolidated to pay for this crap, so now several schools are over crowded until they can be expanded - if they even bother to expand them. Quite naturally, ALL of the schools that closed were in the hood...None of what I mentioned is environmental. that's just p!ss poor money management at the expenses of our schools. Just another way people get assrammed by the government.

keep the schools in the hood. Keep good teachers there. getting through to kids is a numbers game, like so many other things in life. You don't get through to all of the kids in the burbs either, but nobody is closing their schools down...

[Mas Judt]

Seven Star for mayor.

I'll run your campaign, dude. I'll be your Karl Rove. Sorta.

[The Xia]

I don’t think that sport and competition should be out of the question for TMA. I support more sport element in TMA. That's one of the reasons I like San Shou and Kuoshu tournaments. I also like forms competitions. I think it’s actually been tried but I’d also like to see traditional weapons sparring. I think it's all a good outlet for TCMA to compete. As for closeness, the good TCMA schools I've seen have a very strong family feeling to them. I think it has to do with mutual care between student and teacher. Students are dedicated to the art, as are teachers, and through training bonds are formed. So I don't think one should generalize. I think you can find this in good MA schools of all styles. On to the hood… I agree with you on the strength of good parenting but you should know that a lot of kids don't have that. It's a part of the vicious cycle. I've also seen cases of kids with caring parent(s) falling prey to the environment. As for the schools part, I'm not saying to cut funding. I'm saying that money should also be spent to improve the neighborhoods. I think good schools can help in that regard but it's not enough. Frankly, the problems of the hood go into the schools, well funded or not. I think you need to get to the root of the problem. That root isn’t just one thing but the entire environment. Schools are part of the environment but they are one aspect. Having well funded schools with good teachers is good but I think we need more.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol whats with all the germa-phobes in this place now?

[The Xia]

lol whats with all the germa-phobes in this place now?
I'm not a germaphobe but it is a major issue when dealing with physical activity in public schools. Locker rooms raise enough sanitary concerns as they are but stuff like swimming (which SevenStar agreed with me on) and showers are really inviting health problems.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the vicious cycle is that lack of education causes a large part of the problems in the hood.

people just started caring about the state of education when schools started churning out dumb suburban kids and crime rates started rising there too.

[The Xia]

The suburbs are their own issue all together (although ultimately it is connected to the cities). They too have their problems. But focusing on the cities, I think many people now think about education as one way to cure bad areas. But that issue has been with us for a long time. Hell, the projects were created with good intentions! I agree that education is part of the vicious cycle but I think it's only one aspect of it.

[FuXnDajenariht]

which would be what?

[The Xia]

which would be what?
What would you like me to elaborate on?

[SevenStar]

The suburbs are their own issue all together (although ultimately it is connected to the cities). They too have their problems. But focusing on the cities, I think many people now think about education as one way to cure bad areas. But that issue has been with us for a long time. Hell, the projects were created with good intentions! I agree that education is part of the vicious cycle but I think it's only one aspect of it.

anything can be created with a good intention, but look at how it's run? the city doesn't care about the projects. they build them, put people there who can't really afford housing, and remove cops from the area. What's supposed to happen? education alone will NOT cure a bad area. But like I said, outreach is a numbers game. The more you reach out to, the higher the chance of getting through to someone. you don't just lower a group's education or not educate them at all. in the long run, that makes things worse. education cannot cure the problem, but lack of education can definitely worsen it.

[Mas Judt]

There are some obvious solutions:

School vouchers - even a poor parent pays into the system. Even a poor parent wants thier child to do well. If there are competition among the schools, it will raise all schools. If there was a government voucher system, I gaurentee you I would be in the business of setting up inner-city schools.

Besides teaching properly, there should be exercises designed to teach life lessons as to WHY school can matter. HOW you present a topic can have a huge impact on the desire to learn. If you set expectations, people will reach for them. But you also need to understand most kids in the hood cannot see any conection between school and success. The only success around them are the gangsters and the ideal is the sport star or the music star. Examples need to be set and purpose given to these children.

I have a lot of friends who came up and out of the ghetto. In most cases it was thier mom or pop who guided them. Even rarer a teacher. But there are plenty of kids who get neither - and if you are never shown a better path, have nowhere to observe it, it is very difficult to see the way out.

Our education system is very sick, and it is a by-product of shameful behavior by the teachers union and those who run the system.

[Black Jack II]

School vouchers-

This is a big step in the right direction and hope it happens someday.

[SevenStar]

As for closeness, the good TCMA schools I've seen have a very strong family feeling to them. I think it has to do with mutual care between student and teacher. Students are dedicated to the art, as are teachers, and through training bonds are formed. So I don't think one should generalize.

I didn't generalize. I said in the schools that I have been to. however, I bet I could generalize it. fight training is more one on one. i was close with my karate teacher, but it was one on one, most of the time, and he was very combat oriented. In a bigger classroom setting, I'd bet that on average not as much time is spent with the sifu, unless you are a senior student. Now, the students may be familial - we very much were - but you spend more time with them than you do with the sifu. that's just kinda common sense - the more one on one time, the closer the bond. Notice I was talking about fight training in that post. someone in a sport school and only going to class would not have the bond that someone training for a fight would, either.



On to the hood… I agree with you on the strength of good parenting but you should know that a lot of kids don't have that.

like I mentioned above, that's where coaching comes in. Put those kids in a boxing program and see how that changes things. It doesn't have to be a parent, it just has to be someone. If there is nobody, then those kids turn to their peers and to gangs - places where they can find what they are looking for.


I've also seen cases of kids with caring parent(s) falling prey to the environment.

it happens, but is less likely.


As for the schools part, I'm not saying to cut funding. I'm saying that money should also be spent to improve the neighborhoods.

I know you weren't that was an example of my city. improving the neighborhoods won't help. you take a handful of GDs, VLs and ALKN and move them into nice neighborhoods and guess what will happen - the neighborhood will go downhill - QUICK. taking a person out of the hood does not take the hood out of the person. by educating kids and giving them a strong support system - parents, coaches, etc. you are making them less likely to become one of the bad ones, which over time is what would fix the neighborhood, because there will be fewer bad seeds. It's not a quick process, not an easy one and will NEVER entirely fix the problem, but it would help lessen it.



I think good schools can help in that regard but it's not enough. Frankly, the problems of the hood go into the schools, well funded or not. I think you need to get to the root of the problem. That root isn’t just one thing but the entire environment. Schools are part of the environment but they are one aspect. Having well funded schools with good teachers is good but I think we need more.

see above. I see what you're saying, but it can't work that way. you want to fix the problem at the root, then start over. We're dealing with human life, so you can't. theoretically, if you killed them all of and started fresh with a bunch of kids with good schools in a good neighborhood, then yeah, you'd be right. But since that can't happen, you have to work backward. It's slower, but IMO worth the effort.

[Becca]

Well, one of the dances they made use do was a Philipino pole dance. But you were more likely to have a leg slammed between 2 poles rather than a pole slammed between 2 legs.:eek: :D
Well, judging by my local health club Becca, today it would be replaced with aerobic pole dancing.

Kinda scary...

We had coed Judo... Judo works okay for that.... the girls were given the option to Randori with boys or girls only.

[Becca]

I also tend to think that some people that might have liked it later get turned off to it early because they were forced into it when they didn't want it.

Agreed. My oldest son got burned out after only a few months when he was six, so I let him quit so ling as he told Sifu himself. 1 1/2 year later, he asked to start back up again, and has been going strong for over 2 years and loves it. It's ok to have to make them go to class if they are having a lazy day. But you can't make them like martial arts, 'specially if they are being "made to go for thier own good." Rotating thier activities till you find one that works for that child is a much more sound idea, I think.

[unkokusai]

the city doesn't care about the projects. they build them, put people there who can't really afford housing, and remove cops from the area. .



Which city? Which projects?

[The Xia]

In terms of closeness, I guess it depends on the school. If you get a gigantic MMA facility I doubt most of the students will be close to the head coach. I'd say the same for a huge TMA school. It all depends on what kind of person the teacher is (is he interested in his art and students or $ or whatever) and how he runs his school. As for the hood, I never remotely indicated that I advocate killing all the inhabitants. I don't know where you got that from. I agree that you can't solve it quickly and that it takes time. I also agree that schools are an important tool. But I still think more can be done. I agree with you about outreach programs. I also think we need a major reform within the prison system and how society deals with ex-convicts (jobs, etc).

[SevenStar]

Agreed. My oldest son got burned out after only a few months when he was six, so I let him quit so ling as he told Sifu himself. 1 1/2 year later, he asked to start back up again, and has been going strong for over 2 years and loves it. It's ok to have to make them go to class if they are having a lazy day. But you can't make them like martial arts, 'specially if they are being "made to go for thier own good." Rotating thier activities till you find one that works for that child is a much more sound idea, I think.


the idea isn't to force him to like it. The idea is to have him learn the life lessons he needs to learn. He doesn't have to exclusively do MA. My son is playing basketball next season. He still does what he wants with the rest of his time.

[SevenStar]

Which city? Which projects?

Any city. For mine specifically, memphis.

[SevenStar]

In terms of closeness, I guess it depends on the school. If you get a gigantic MMA facility I doubt most of the students will be close to the head coach. I'd say the same for a huge TMA school. It all depends on what kind of person the teacher is (is he interested in his art and students or $ or whatever) and how he runs his school.

that's exactly what I said.


the more one on one time, the closer the bond. Notice I was talking about fight training in that post. someone in a sport school and only going to class would not have the bond that someone training for a fight would, either.

More or less, I think we agree. In a mma school though, you will draw more students who want to compete, so you may have more people getting that time at some point.



As for the hood, I never remotely indicated that I advocate killing all the inhabitants. I don't know where you got that from.

I never said you did. that was an example. You are trying to find the root cause and fix that. I was stating that killing the inhabitants would be the only way to do that, which is why you will never fix the root of the problem. Don't take everything so literally...


I agree that you can't solve it quickly and that it takes time. I also agree that schools are an important tool. But I still think more can be done. I agree with you about outreach programs. I also think we need a major reform within the prison system and how society deals with ex-convicts (jobs, etc).

I agree about the prison system as well.

[The Xia]

I think we are actually on the same page SevenStar. The point about a MMA school likely drawing more students who want to compete is interesting. I'd agree that's likely the way it is now but I see that changing. I'm starting to see the types who just want to feel like they are doing what they see on TV but without putting in the work. The MMA mcdojo has finally arrived. I think a lot of people saw that coming years ago. On the subject of TMA, I don't see TMA and competition as mutually exclusive.

[Mas Judt]

For a free country, it is amazing how many people we have. There is an entire industry built on warehousing people and putting them through the 'justice' system. Like some other systems that have developed, the money being made off of it makes it hard to reform.

Being 'tough' on crime does not mean not being tough on expectations of the convicted. We are so namby-pampy and worried about thier treatment, when WE SHOULD shove civics, manners and work ethic down thier throats. I love Sherriff Arpiao for this: Prison is uncomfortable and you get two shows on TV - Disney and US history lessons.

On the other hand - we need better education in the inner cities - and a focus on constitutional law. The 'system' should be focused on helping to create good citizens - prior to any problem via school and community and AFTER a problem, by educating/consequence management.

On the other side, as an employer, I'm not interested in people who have broken any realy serious law - theft, murder, etc. People tend to repeat. I'd rather they repeat somewhere else. Now how do we deal with THAT reality.

[Black Jack II]

Education is in a shambles in most areas. A good amount of teachers are not worth spit. We give everyone the "right" to an education, while at the same time forcing inadequate institutions and inferior supplies on the kids who need it the most.

The key term here is social enginering... if all these kids that at present do not have a choice on where they learn suddenly get a choice, they will not choose the present option. And with that loss of attendance the teachers will not be able to tell us that businesses are corrupt and that the rainforest are dying because of us or that if you have a SUV you are an evil person. The control will be lifted and that is why there is oppostion.

Thats why people need school vouchers. You pay into the system you should have access to the choice.

[The Xia]

I think schools in general suck. I feel the entire school system is a rusty, outdated junk heap all the way down to the building designs. I'm not just talking about city schools either. I think the whole education system needs to be re-vamped in a major way that would require a lot of open minds and a lot of money.

[SevenStar]

I think we are actually on the same page SevenStar. The point about a MMA school likely drawing more students who want to compete is interesting. I'd agree that's likely the way it is now but I see that changing. I'm starting to see the types who just want to feel like they are doing what they see on TV but without putting in the work. The MMA mcdojo has finally arrived. I think a lot of people saw that coming years ago. On the subject of TMA, I don't see TMA and competition as mutually exclusive.

mma schools have been here. we had one in my city and it was put out of business. that was about six years ago. even guys that do want to be like their heroes put in the work. the ones who don't want to, quit. as I am in an mma school, I see it all the time. you will be hard pressed to find a bjj blackbelt anywhere who would cheapen his training for the wannabes. and with all of the info on the net, finding a fraud would be easy. IMO, we will eventually have a slight mcschool issue, it will never be as big as it is among tma.

tma and competition are not mutually exclusive. but be real. even on this forum, many of the tma say they have no desire to compete. I can point you to a currently ongoing thread where people are talking about that. tma seemto be, on average, less likely to compete.

[The Xia]

Oh I wouldn't say that the MMA mcdojo won't grow to be as big as the TMA mcdojo. I know of some huge chain mcdojos that are adopting McMMA. I know that many TMA don't want to compete. That's ok. It's not for everyone. However, many do compete and I think it's unfair to not give them their due credit. And which on going thread are you talking about?

[SevenStar]

Oh I wouldn't say that the MMA mcdojo won't grow to be as big as the TMA mcdojo. I know of some huge chain mcdojos that are adopting McMMA. I know that many TMA don't want to compete. That's ok. It's not for everyone. However, many do compete and I think it's unfair to not give them their due credit. And which on going thread are you talking about?

I'm on my smartphone right now, so I can't copy and paste, but when I leave this meeting and get back to my desk, I will paste the link. mcmma won't catch on as fast for the reasons I stated. I would put money on that.

I give respect to anyone who fights full contact,but that doesn't change the notion that far more mma compete than mma.

[SevenStar]

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41471&page=5

read the post by kidswarrior. He's not the only one, several people on here over the years I've been here have said they have no desire to compete, nor do most tma.

[golden arhat]

I think schools in general suck. I feel the entire school system is a rusty, outdated junk heap all the way down to the building designs. I'm not just talking about city schools either. I think the whole education system needs to be re-vamped in a major way that would require a lot of open minds and a lot of money.

thats what we're doin here in the uk
soon we're gonna be having mandarin and arabic lessons

the whole things having an overhaul

[FuXnDajenariht]

like i said. better education is probably the most important key to fixing the inner city. the bottom line is, if you take away that then your taking away a person's economic and personal freedom. there are millions of people in inner cities living in mental cages and thats the worst kind of all. it all has a trickle down effect to the rest of a persons entire life. anyone whos made it outta the hood will tell you that first hand. you wanna see the difference between a success and a failure in life you should usually start there.

why do you think people move their entire families thousands of miles from their home, their friends, their relatives, good paying jobs, to different countries even, just to live in an area with good schools? its that important. its the only true way out for most people. that is unless they wanna live illegally. look how ancient cultures viewed the importance of getting a proper education, and i dont think we really understand the consequences of having an improper one yet. i think people are slowing learning though.

[The Xia]

Most people who enter martial arts schools don't do research. The thing is that I see McMMA growing. If big chain mcschools are adopting it, what does that say? On the subject of that thread, thanks for the link. I actually did post on it but I didn't respond to kidswarrior's post. I'm going to do that now.

[SevenStar]

Most people who enter martial arts schools don't do research. The thing is that I see McMMA growing. If big chain mcschools are adopting it, what does that say? On the subject of that thread, thanks for the link. I actually did post on it but I didn't respond to kidswarrior's post. I'm going to do that now.

I definitely won't deny that it's growing. it won't get anywhere near the size of the tma mcschool though.

[GeneChing]

Martial arts to be main focus at Taiwan's elementary school (http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?Type=aALL&ID=201003250030)
2010/03/25 19:30:20
Miaoli, Taiwan, March 25 (CNA) Central Taiwan's Miaoli County will soon begin building an elementary school that will focus on teaching students about martial arts, county officials said Thursday.

Miaoli County Magistrate Liu Cheng-hung said the county government will invest NT$320 million to set up the martial arts school and the new school will begin to enroll students in September 2011.

While three- fifths of the curriculum will be related to martial arts training, students will be given lessons comparable to those taught in regular elementary and secondary schools, according to Liu.

At the initial stage, the school will only enroll students aged between 11 and 13, (equivalent to grades 5 to 7 at elementary and secondary schools) , although the school is planning to eventually accommodate students aged between 6 and 15.

The county government has chosen a site close to local tourism resources to build the school and is expecting the school to become a tourist attraction in the future.

http://focustaiwan.tw/WebEngPhotos/CEP/2010032500301.jpg
I like this pic - chinese uniforms (http://www.martialartsmart.com/uniforms-kung-fu.html) in the front, gis (http://www.martialartsmart.com/uniforms-karate.html)in the back.

[Lee Chiang Po]

who else thinks its a good idea ?

I think it is a bad idea. Some schools have sports judo and wrestling and such, and the boys clubs have boxing, But to make it compulsery in schools would be a mistake I feel. It would immediately create classes of people by their level of skills. And schools now have a 0 tolorance toward violence, and this is going to simply teach it or at least give more students a greater self confidense to fight. Most kids will not fight now for fear of retribution or of getting their a$$ whipped. Give them a bit of self confidense and you will be at their school every day trying to talk through it with the principals.
Back in the late 60's I trained several young men in combat jujitsu for the military. Only a half dozen attack and defense techniques as well as taking a fall. Not a full course by any stretch. After myself and these young men had taken a group about half way through training we started having to go downtown with the MP's and take custody of our charges. They were fighting and raising hell because of their new toy. Anyone that was put into the program was restricted to base for 90 days after completion of the course. And we still had people fighting in the barracks.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think it's a good idea at all.

I'll elaborate in a bit.

p.s I like the gis in back photo too. lol

[SPJ]

elective or optional at all levels of educational institutions

from elementary, high, college to even graduate schools.

if we may offer wrestling then why not kung fu, too?

part of physical education and cultural education---

:)