Stances in real fights?

[Adventure427]

Hey guys, this is my 'return' to the forum from a while back. I gained tons of knowledge from you guys before and really enjoy hearing all of your viewpoints on various issues, and appretiate your contributions.

Here's my situation...I've been taking these classes of this 8step prayingmantis class (and 8step seems awesome to me by the way) and the instructor (well actually he's just the senior student of 10years, the sifu hasn't been there) said something that shocked me. We train in the stances, you know, typical of kung fu (horse, bow, 1legged, ect.) and he said something like "Now of course, you wouldn't actually use these stances/blocks, it'd look something more like this" and did something like a quick muay'thai block (hand to the ear to block a hook)

Now am i missing something? I always thought you train in kung fu to fight like kung fu, is it just to strengthen your body to be able to use a different style to fight better, or is this a mc dojo. I didn't wanna put him on the spot, so after class i asked him "So you wouldn't use these stances that we practice at all?"

His response was "The stances are more transitions, for like our throws and jointlocking techniques" and demonstrated a few times you would go into bow to do a throw, or a 1legged stance to stick out your leg and trip them.

He also went on to say "doing our typical high block," (which is typical amongst alot of systems i've seen) "wouldn't be practical because it leaves you exposed, so it would be more like this" and did a similar block to before.

Another thing we were doing was thing called a "watchout" drill which is actually a really good drill...we're punching 1 focus mitt, and the person with the mitt swings a nunchuck at you and you either duck under it or jump over it (mostly for cardio/awareness) but we do it from a boxing stance with boxer-style punches.

Is this really how kung fu guys fight and i was unaware of this all this time? Or is he misinformed and not using what he COULD be really good at by now (after 10years experience)???

PS: Im definantly not a troll, i love all martial arts. From what i've seen people have been pretty sensetive these days, so im just being careful to let you guys know that lol

[Oso]

sounds like your instructor is working in the real world. good for him and for you. he's basically correct. just keep training and if you are fighting, keep fighting and listening to him.

[WinterPalm]

There are many things you do in Kung Fu that are not strictly speaking fighting applications. They are chi gung and health related practices as well.
I would ask the Sifu. What is the point in training all these things if you are just going to do a kickboxing technique? It doesn't make sense...Now, some of those techniques from various other arts are often found within a system of kung fu...obviously we have a lead punch and a cross punch just like boxing...or a kick similar to a muay thai roundhouse. There is often a flavour or feeling to the style and to teach someone something and then say that we don't really do that in combat, that doesn't make sense to me. Why train in it if you aren't going to use it?

I don't know if you are at a McKwoon but I would suggest talking to the Sifu about these things before you make any decisions. It could be that this student is out of line.

[Golden Arms]

I dont really agree with that, although fighting is fighting, different styles DO have different approaches/answers to the same questions. You dont usually end up staying in stances as you fight, but a good fighter will move through them as his footsteps, same with the 'blocks'...there are really no blocks i know, because blocking as a concept is pretty much too slow to use unless the person was only swinging at you one time, but there are tons of parries, redirections, guards, and the like that can be used as a person moves to switch their role from defender to attacker. Generally trying to 'defend' is a losing game, but 'counter-attacking' can be a winning game. I would give it time if you like the school, you may learn something, but also realize that PM, Hung Ga, Hsing-I, etc are not going to look like boxing if you do it right, but done just ok, they may look like bad boxing, just as much as they look like bad anything else.

[WinterPalm]

In terms of stances, they are often transitions or level changes, or used for bridging against a tackle or takedown attempt. They have multiple uses in that regard. Would you start a fight in a real deep horse stance? Probably not, but if you look at wrestling or UFC fighters like Liddell, they keep a very deep almost horse stance but they are mobile and move around a lot. My stance would be a cross between a horse and a 60/40 upright position. In sparring we'll often have double/single leg takedowns in corporated and so this position is most comfortable for me. When I spar with people I haven't sparred with before, this is usually the position I take as it allows for good agility and springyness but still low enough to defend or engage in a shoot.

[Adventure427]

Thanks for the quick replies so far, interested in hearing more. So WinterPalm you mentioned chi gung and health practices, i know some of it definantly is that. Thats another reason i like kung fu so much, the stuff keeps/improves your health =)

So, the moves you perform in forms (this in relation to all kung fu styles really) you know, the blocks, the footwork, the stances, the strikes....do you fight like this? (obviously not in a pre-determined way, but do you use these stances and these strikes?) If not why not? If so how come? I can see the power in a front punch from a bow stance, yet i also see how someone may think its impractical. But i always felt like if you practice it enough you will be skilled enough to use it, but maybe i was mistaken in thinking thats how kungfu people REALLY fight?

[SevenStar]

sounds like your instructor knows what he is talking about.

[WinterPalm]

The moves in the sets are sort of like adaptive strategies, to me anyway, that are sometimes used in a similar way, or another completely different way. Much of what you do comes out in sparring even if it is only the reinforced body mechanics. I am not at a high level of understanding and ability, but from my perspective, there comes a time when it is a seamless flowing of movement.
Sometimes a reaction can happen automatically, sometimes you make it happen. It all depends on what you ingrain in yourself and practice deligently. There is no sense in training in something if you don't intend on using it if you have to or want to.
The footwork and the blocks are all very crucial, as is getting the heck out of the way!
Golden arms is right, ideally redirection and parrying is ideal but sometimes a rough block is better than nothing.
I took a steel bar to the wrist once when I blocked it as it was swung very hard for my head as I sat on the ground. Putting my hand against my ear type block would not have been a very good idea. Not saying that technique is useless, but certain situations call for certain strategies or expression of your style. Do not bring a knife to a gunfight.

[Oso]

sounds like your instructor knows what he is talking about.

lol...how come people don't like the simple answers?

[WinterPalm]

That said, don't start think you are going to look like a kung fu movie. It isn't pretty.:eek:

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I teach stance training for one type of leg conditioning. I also teach stances as transitional movements. I believe that actual fighting must be more fluid and that when a stance is taken it will only last for maybe a second until your next attack or defense.
Our blocking techniques consist mostly of quick slaps and redirections, so I think they can be used "as is". While some other styles that I have practiced must be changed a bit for actual fighting.
I don't think your instructor is giving you BS, in fact I would admire his honesty assessment. And it in no way makes his school a Mcanything.

[Adventure427]

Lol...I'm just in shock, and still not too clear. Use moves you practice, or do something else? If not why not? If so why? Enjoying the responses from your guys' more expanded perspective.

[Adventure427]

Ohh ok MonkeyKing, thats what i mean. Like, of course you wouldn't just sit in a bow stance and throw punches, you'd get clobbered. You'd get clobbered if you sat in a boxers stance aswell, you have to move. But you can move from stance to stance right?

Here's a simple demonstration (imagine): You block a punch with your left hand and step into a deep bow and strike the solar plexus with your right, and then step foward (possibly a circle step foward, or anyway of advancement in the bowstance traditionally taught) and then an uppercut or wheel fist or kick or another strike...

Also what about evading a strike by stepping into the cross stance (also called girl's foot) and then springing up into a kick (if the opponent isn't still advancing) and continuing to advance yourself or sidestep. (in your stances)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Lol...I'm just in shock, and still not too clear. Use moves you practice, or do something else? If not why not? If so why? Enjoying the responses from your guys' more expanded perspective.

We are not saying we don't use the moves. We are simply saying we don't face a streetfighter frozen in a Cat Stance. But yes, I would try to drop into a picture perfect Kneeling Stance while punching my opponent in the nut sack. I would not however freeze in that stance and give a Bruce Lee type of yell. The stance would last a second or two till I hit him another way. Maybe from a Bow Stance. I may avoid a punch or kick with a traditional Collapse Stance. But I would not keep my leg out for my opponent to stomp.
Some styles do use exaggerated moves that are nice for forms and sparring, but I would never use them in a streetfight.
This is one reason that I think sparring is very unrelated to real fighting. You can get away with many things in sparring with its strict safety rules that can get you severely injured or killed on the street.

[WinterPalm]

If your Sifu agrees with the student's assessment of the usage, then by all means. The sets are designed for development and ingraining certain way of moving and reacting. These will come out in sparring but often the applications, which are always taught side by side with forms, are often different in appearance but the same in mechanical orientation. Certain things are done at different levels that appear different but are still very similar.
Confusing? Often, but realisitically, you cannot say to always do abc because sometimes it will be bca or gke or whatever the combination may be. Different attacks and situations require different things. Ask the Senior student what he would do if a bar came at his head and he didn't have time to duck...my Sifu had a situation like that and he redirected it...in my example, I was not even training and so did the natural thing and blocked it with my arm outstretched, not next to the ear, which is useful for some attacks and obviously better than nothing. Different tools for different projects.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Winterpalm,
Good insights!

[EarthDragon]

Adventure427,
allow me to introduce myself. This is Shrfu Haley, I believe your are speaking about my student Andrew a.k.a shisung.

I am the shrfu from the school you are speaking about if I am correct you are in Buffalo NY.

I have had previous engangments the last couple wednesdays but will be teaching this wed.

What Andrew is telling and showing you is absolutley correct, take the advice from his and from Oso.
I can assure you that you are not in a "Mckwoon" but going to learn from a lineage holder in the family of 8 step. My teacher was 4th generation Shyun kwon long an his teacher master Wei Xiao Tung. Do google search on him. Also you can check out our webpage and see the lineage chart on the mantiscave.

I look forward to teaching you and answering any questions you might have but please by all means ask a lot questions on this and the northern mantis board, most peopel know me also there are some very informative people out here, just use your best judgment. see you on Wed.

[Adventure427]

Awesome, you are correct sifu Haley. So, do you also agree with monkey king i'm wondering? Would you not drop into a bowstance (for a quick second) to strike somebody and then move to another position?

I'm just making sure, because i always thought you would go from stance to stance and use the footwork. I may have misunderstood, but i felt like andrew was saying you would barely use any of the actual stances for strikes. Are the stances and strikes being done from the stances really just used for promotion of health/well being? I can definalty see how it could be used for that (as i feel amazing after practicing)

I was under the impression though, that you also would use the stances/techniques (atleast the bowstance) to deliver a quick/powerful strike while of course not just sitting there to strike (which would be fatal regardless of which stance you are static in.)

So is this what he means by the stances are just transitions? You just strike from them and flow quickly to the next movement? Because if so that makes sense, thats how i always understood it... i'm still a bit confused and perhaps you could elaborate. (on the forum please so i'm not embarassed when i see you in class tomarrow, lol)

[Yum Cha]

This is one of my favorite topics...

Firstly, most TCMA people with skill agree that stances are not static, they are an evolving motion, a series of transitions. One frozen moment in time, coordinating the entire body, linked to striking, evading, agressing, whatever.

One practices them statically to develop strength, body mechanic and physical memory.

Footwork is both the most basic and most advanced skill in martial arts.

However, if you train traditional, than fight "modern white fist" you deserve what you don't get from those trainers, and I call them trainers because they are being rather self indulgent to call themselves Sifu. Yea, I know I'm being bold, but its just one man's opinion. Give me 35 years of perspective and I'll listen, I don't come to this conclusion theoretically, or lightly.

If you want quick results and good sportfighting/self defense, by all means get into the modern sportfighting groove, but don't be tricked into thinking you are training traditional arts because you do some traditional forms and fight modern kickboxing. People lament the death of traditional arts, than pull out their daggers and strike it down themselves using "modernisation" as an excuse. Et tu Brutus?

Learning to fight "in style" does NOT mean putting a chinese name on a jab, hook, cross and haymaker, front kick, side kick and back kick.

If you want to make the style work, you have to work the style. Yes, you will get clobbered by kickboxers at first. Yes, it takes much longer. Yes, its not easy and it takes intelligence as well as heart and comittment. But, it can be done, and those who can do it will become superior to most. If of course, it is the fighting component that interests you in the first place. There are other gifts from traditional training.

You have to train differently. Commercial Kwoons love the formula, 1/2 hr conditioning, 15 minutes forms, the rest of the time Sparring. Fits nicely into slices of class time, fires up the testosterone, burns the flab. Very managable with large groups. More power to them, its obviously a popular pastime.

READ THIS and be sure, I'm NOT condeming the sport, its skills or effectiveness, just the misconception that they are somehow "Traditional Chinese Kung Fu." Don't come back at me with some ill-considered vitriol, I won't bite.

That rant being ranted, here's the flip side. Young trainees need the hardening of this kind of training. They need the ring craft, the lessons in pain, the lessons of courage, timing and interaction against a resisting opponent. But, you have to take it beyond that if you don't want your art to freeze in that format. Unfortunately, that is where too many freeze. And then, they begin looking for the next challenge....or retire "undefeated".

The trick, the elusive missing link, is to work them into "live" training that uses the style, not whatever defaults under pressure. Eventually, the style will default under pressure, and that's where the cut is made.

To my mind, a good sifu is not satisfied with raising good fighters unless they can demonstrate the skills of the style within their free-fighting interactions. The hardest thing is taking a well trained student and teaching them to use their trained skills in actual confrontations against unpredictable, agressive and motivated opponents.

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.

No its not easy, that's why so few good Sifu can be found.

[EarthDragon]

Awesome, you are correct sifu Haley. So, do you also agree with monkey king i'm wondering? Would you not drop into a bowstance (for a quick second) to strike somebody and then move to another position?

the answer would essentailly be NO the stances have application but not as you are thinking I would never punch from a bow stance.... for instance the crossing leg stance is actually the finshed postition after a throw. but can also be a transition stance to perform So Bei a different throw.

I'm just making sure, because i always thought you would go from stance to stance and use the footwork. I may have misunderstood, but i felt like andrew was saying you would barely use any of the actual stances for strikes. Are the stances and strikes being done from the stances really just used for promotion of health/well being? I can definalty see how it could be used for that (as i feel amazing after practicing)

He is correct you do not fight from the static stances. You must remember you are in the infant stage of learning with just a couple weeks under your belt mantis is truley a fighting system. we fight from 50/50 stance mostly but our complexed foot work is a whole other animal which you will learn in time.

I was under the impression though, that you also would use the stances/techniques (atleast the bowstance) to deliver a quick/powerful strike while of course not just sitting there to strike (which would be fatal regardless of which stance you are static in.)

answered above.


So is this what he means by the stances are just transitions? You just strike from them and flow quickly to the next movement? Because if so that makes sense, thats how i always understood it... i'm still a bit confused and perhaps you could elaborate. (on the forum please so i'm not embarassed when i see you in class tomarrow, lol)

to explain to you and answer your questions is like trying to expain how to play tennis over the internet. I will be happy to show you and answer your quesitons on wednesday...
And NEVER be embarrased in class, the kwoon is there for you! Not me, it is my time I devote for the love of the arts and the love of my students. no need to be embarrased of anything...

[Oso]

stances train a certain type of strength, weight distribution and in a dynamic stance set; transitions from one weight distribution to the other. Those are the skills needed to apply power in a fight.

I personally feel that you should see 'shadows' or 'ghosts' of the traditional stances in good 'kung fu' sparring but you may not see the 'ba shi' stricly employed. What should stand out as testament to good stance training is effortless movement.

[mantis108]

Well, I don't believe that classical training (ie Kung Fu) and reality based training (ie MMA) need to be mutually exclusive. I think you could enjoy both if your school makes steps to harmonize both in a program for you.

I believe that much of the reality based training can be incorporated into your kung fu training. The ducking, bobbing, waving, shoulder rolls, etc is grouped under Shen Fa (body method) and can be drilled with simply kung Fu drills (ie mantis' feng shou drill). It a matter of how the information is presented IMHO. No offense to your instructor there but he is a senior not the Sifu right? So he might have a lot of experience behind him and he seems genuine in sharing his experiences with you but I would hope that you have a chance to get the Sifu's opinion as well. I would hope that you don't draw any conclusion at this point.

There is a close relationship between low stances, footwork, and striking (kicks). This used to be crucial development in TCMA. Nowadays without a suitable venues for testing skills in most TCMA styles, the stance training which used to be the backbone of TCMA, is increasingly marginalized.

I think your Sifu would be able to show you both the classical approach and the contemporary approach as well.

Anyway, good luck in your endeuvers.

Mantis108

[The Xia]

This is one of my favorite topics...

Firstly, most TCMA people with skill agree that stances are not static, they are an evolving motion, a series of transitions. One frozen moment in time, coordinating the entire body, linked to striking, evading, agressing, whatever.

One practices them statically to develop strength, body mechanic and physical memory.

Footwork is both the most basic and most advanced skill in martial arts.

However, if you train traditional, than fight "modern white fist" you deserve what you don't get from those trainers, and I call them trainers because they are being rather self indulgent to call themselves Sifu. Yea, I know I'm being bold, but its just one man's opinion. Give me 35 years of perspective and I'll listen, I don't come to this conclusion theoretically, or lightly.

If you want quick results and good sportfighting/self defense, by all means get into the modern sportfighting groove, but don't be tricked into thinking you are training traditional arts because you do some traditional forms and fight modern kickboxing. People lament the death of traditional arts, than pull out their daggers and strike it down themselves using "modernisation" as an excuse. Et tu Brutus?

Learning to fight "in style" does NOT mean putting a chinese name on a jab, hook, cross and haymaker, front kick, side kick and back kick.

If you want to make the style work, you have to work the style. Yes, you will get clobbered by kickboxers at first. Yes, it takes much longer. Yes, its not easy and it takes intelligence as well as heart and comittment. But, it can be done, and those who can do it will become superior to most. If of course, it is the fighting component that interests you in the first place. There are other gifts from traditional training.

You have to train differently. Commercial Kwoons love the formula, 1/2 hr conditioning, 15 minutes forms, the rest of the time Sparring. Fits nicely into slices of class time, fires up the testosterone, burns the flab. Very managable with large groups. More power to them, its obviously a popular pastime.

READ THIS and be sure, I'm NOT condeming the sport, its skills or effectiveness, just the misconception that they are somehow "Traditional Chinese Kung Fu." Don't come back at me with some ill-considered vitriol, I won't bite.

That rant being ranted, here's the flip side. Young trainees need the hardening of this kind of training. They need the ring craft, the lessons in pain, the lessons of courage, timing and interaction against a resisting opponent. But, you have to take it beyond that if you don't want your art to freeze in that format. Unfortunately, that is where too many freeze. And then, they begin looking for the next challenge....or retire "undefeated".

The trick, the elusive missing link, is to work them into "live" training that uses the style, not whatever defaults under pressure. Eventually, the style will default under pressure, and that's where the cut is made.

To my mind, a good sifu is not satisfied with raising good fighters unless they can demonstrate the skills of the style within their free-fighting interactions. The hardest thing is taking a well trained student and teaching them to use their trained skills in actual confrontations against unpredictable, agressive and motivated opponents.

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.

No its not easy, that's why so few good Sifu can be found.
Great post Yum Cha!

[Adventure427]

Thanks to everyone for your comments so far. Very much appretiated. I dont know if i will be making it to class today Earth Dragon due to the blizzard we're having. I may tho.

Yum Cha...I very much appretiate your comments...you mentioned how it takes longer to fight with traditional ma...how long before someone gets good with this kind of trainning your talking about would you say it takes? Also you said "i dont come to this conclusion theroetically or lightly" what do you mean? You've used it? could you tell a story or two? =)

Again i feel any art has merit and it is up to the practitioner to make it work for him/her.

[EarthDragon]

adventure427
I dont think we will be having class, most everything is closing and there is a travel band. I will need your cell number to notify when these things come up. email me through our website. www.eightstepUSA.com

[Hung Gar Kid]

Hi guys :) im newbie in this forum but not in martial arts :) ive been practising hung gar style for the last 6 months and i have about 2 years experience in take won do. i can say that in hung gar style we practice stances such as horse or crane to make our legs strong as a rock but its almost impossible to execute perfect stance in a real fight. you not going to sit in a horse stance while fighting. especially out in a street where fight ends maximum after 10 seconds :) now practising forms is different from fighting (i think someone mentioned forms). we execute forms trying to gain perfection in combined moves along with speed. but you can never gain that ligthning speed executing perfect horse or crane stance. executing stances is good to regulate your briefing and building up strenght.

[Golden Arms]

Yum Cha, I couldnt have put it better, or even as well. Your comments echo many of the older guys I train with, and they have more than earned my respect many times over for the traditional way.

[SevenStar]

Remember, fundamentally, kickboxing is strategically different to traditional fighting. The sprint v the marathon. The sword v the club. Traditional arts fight to finish within less than a minute, not to last 3 x 3 minute rounds.


your post was awesome until you got to the last four sentences. from a sport perspective, a fighter would LOVE to end the fight in less than a minute, and on several occasions, it happens. my buddy fought on showtime over the weekend and finished the fight in 1:55. not less than one minute, but less than two is still excellent. you train to finish the fight quickly, but at the same time, you have to be prepared to continue, should the fight not end so quickly. THAT is more of the difference, not merely training to end a fight quickly.

[Golden Arms]

True Sevenstar, but also not true. You are training to end the fight quickly, using the tools of that sport system. Training to end a fight quickly when you have access to eyes, back of the head and neck, crotch, ears, throat, etc is different, because the possibility exists that a well practiced and executed attack to one of these areas with a conditioned weapon will end the confrontation MUCH faster. If both people know how to do this, then it would be like watching a knife fight, its probably going to be over pretty fast regardless of the outcome.

And if you dont beleive there are legit ways to train this stuff, thats fine, but I have detailed the basic methodology before and not had any holes poked in it, its pretty simple, just a different slant on the same thing, fighting. Conditioning and all that other stuff still play their large roles in the overall game.

[SevenStar]

True Sevenstar, but also not true. You are training to end the fight quickly, using the tools of that sport system. Training to end a fight quickly when you have access to eyes, back of the head and neck, crotch, ears, throat, etc is different, because the possibility exists that a well practiced and executed attack to one of these areas with a conditioned weapon will end the confrontation MUCH faster. If both people know how to do this, then it would be like watching a knife fight, its probably going to be over pretty fast regardless of the outcome.

And if you dont beleive there are legit ways to train this stuff, thats fine, but I have detailed the basic methodology before and not had any holes poked in it, its pretty simple, just a different slant on the same thing, fighting. Conditioning and all that other stuff still play their large roles in the overall game.

not necessarily. check out the fight between yuki nakai and gerrard gordeau. eye gouges were allowable then, but you would be fined. gordeau was knuckle deep in nakai's eye AND HE STILL LOST THE FIGHT. nakai also won his next match, though he was half blind. he is now permanently blind in that eye, but he won that day.

additionally, I'd add that those techniques you mentioned would be applied more easily from a grappling perspective, so it would change that aspect of the game, but I doubt it would change the standup game that much.

[WinterPalm]

Taking the gloves off would drastically change the game.
Obviously any time rules are modified it changes the game.
Unless it isn't a game...

[Yum Cha]

your post was awesome until you got to the last four sentences. from a sport perspective, a fighter would LOVE to end the fight in less than a minute, and on several occasions, it happens. my buddy fought on showtime over the weekend and finished the fight in 1:55. not less than one minute, but less than two is still excellent. you train to finish the fight quickly, but at the same time, you have to be prepared to continue, should the fight not end so quickly. THAT is more of the difference, not merely training to end a fight quickly.

Hi 7*
All but the last 4 sentences? ****, I'll try harder next time...:D

I definately see your point about the need to be able to continue, and Golden boy made a nice extrapolation of my point.

I think the pivitol issue is rules, and training to fight with rules, being the rules of the ring, or the rules of the door security business

Of course, as I mentioned, the training is a gordian knot.

Hi Adventure

It takes so long that if you are worried about how long it takes, you might as well quit now. If you want to study martial arts, you have to give yourself to it without conditions. You have to look at it as a journey that will never reach the end, only take you higher up the mountain. As soon as you think you have learned something, that knowledge will only show you what you have yet to learn. There is no clock.

My stories are interesting, but probably only to me. I suggest you make your own stories. The best thing you can do is to understand that only you can do it, that you must take responsibility for your own development, you must decide when you are learning and when you are stagnating, only you can reach. Having it handed to you is as worthless as never having had it at all. Also understand that there are some that are simply better, and better suited to the arts. Its not for everybody, and 1 in 100 will ever make it. You have to find your place, and what works for you if you ever expect to put a lifetime into it.

Good Luck

[Golden Arms]

Like I said, to each their own. There are not a lot of people out there that are willing to be blinded just as there are not a lot that are willing to have their arms broken instead of submitting, but they do exist. They are likely not the norm however. And while yes that stuff works great grappling, there is a whole system of using it for standup, whether you choose to recognize it or not doesnt mean it cant be done.

[SevenStar]

Like I said, to each their own. There are not a lot of people out there that are willing to be blinded just as there are not a lot that are willing to have their arms broken instead of submitting, but they do exist. They are likely not the norm however. And while yes that stuff works great grappling, there is a whole system of using it for standup, whether you choose to recognize it or not doesnt mean it cant be done.

sure, anything can work. but the chances of a standing eye gouge are landing are less than they would be on the ground. And I'd be willing to bet the chances of it are less when compared to strikes to the chin and nose. chin down and head moving makes the eyes and throat difficult areas to hit. As you said though, to each their own.

[SevenStar]

Taking the gloves off would drastically change the game.
Obviously any time rules are modified it changes the game.
Unless it isn't a game...

you don't have to remove gloves for the strikes he mentioned.

[Yum Cha]

Eye gouges always seem to be the focal point on this "too deadly for the ring" debate.

What about a knee to the back of the head from your back when controlled by a side mount?

My point is, its a frame of mind built upon techniques trained and practiced. Its what comes up by default, without thinking, as a result of physical memory and sensitivity to an opponents openings.

[SevenStar]

Eye gouges always seem to be the focal point on this "too deadly for the ring" debate.

What about a knee to the back of the head from your back when controlled by a side mount?

My point is, its a frame of mind built upon techniques trained and practiced. Its what comes up by default, without thinking, as a result of physical memory and sensitivity to an opponents openings.

golden arms brought up gouges. knees to the head from side mount are great. definitely an advantage for the grappler though. however, I do understand your point. the strikes that are typically mentioned are usually either low% in standup, or are tactically more sound from the ground. it wouldn't be some equalizer that allows fights to be ended faster,in most cases. this was proven back when these strikes actually were legal. they were banned because they can cause permanent damage, like what happened to the now blinded nakai.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

your instructor has probably had sex with a midget and caughts some midget std.

spray him down with a bleach solutions for his own good.

[Yum Cha]

7*
Just to broaden the conversation a notch...

What is the difference between a good streetfighter and a good, properly trained sport fighter?

My thoughts:

The trained fighter has conditioning, probaly even technique.

The street fighter has tricks and committment (fight or flight).

So, lets talk about tricks. You could even look at Musashi on strategy. Dictating the battlefield, the time of attack, the element of surprise and confusion. Forcing the opponent into fighting your fight not theirs, leading the dance. Think about that vid of the copper using the cradle attack to the guys neck...

Every attack has a counter. Thus the attack least likely to be countered is the attack least familiar, do you take my point?

I'm a firm believer that most fights are won or lost before the first punch is thrown. Does this strategic training take place in the ring? Yes, there are elements thereof, but not to the same extent.

The other side of the coin - the fight that starts when all the sudden there is a loud bang! and as your before your eyes clear, you feel somebody's hand on your collar and from the haze you see a big fist ****ed next to your attacker's ear and the look of blood in his eyes...

I know you know what I'm talking about, the question that levels us all our, regardless of style, fittness, and philosophy is how to train to deal with it?

Indeed can you? Not to many people do the, let me king-hit you and see what you can do next scenario....although from the look of some of these guys, I may be wrong...fair enough.

I favour the military training philosophy. Break them down to nothing, and re-build them your way. Forms are a stage as well as a training technique. Free-sparring too. Controlled combination training, uncontrolled combination training. Pad, bag and protected opponent training too. And sometimes you start the series over again as the years pass and the student develops, if you follow the point I'm trying to make...

[WinterPalm]

you don't have to remove gloves for the strikes he mentioned.

I was commenting on your post #31 or at least in relation to the direction the discussion was going.


Fighting with and without gloves is very different. You'll break your hand if you attempt many punches unless you've got really hard hands.

The difference in UFC gloves and boxing gloves is huge in what you can and cannot do.

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.
Ring fighting, in terms of minimal rules, will allow a practioner to take the sparring element of martial arts to the most realistic level. I suppose it is a means, but there are many things, such as fighting on the ground that I would not advocate in reality unless I had backup standing...not to say one should not know what to do to either avoid or deal with the ground situation.

[SevenStar]

7*
Just to broaden the conversation a notch...

What is the difference between a good streetfighter and a good, properly trained sport fighter?

My thoughts:

The trained fighter has conditioning, probaly even technique.

The street fighter has tricks and committment (fight or flight).

So, lets talk about tricks. You could even look at Musashi on strategy. Dictating the battlefield, the time of attack, the element of surprise and confusion. Forcing the opponent into fighting your fight not theirs, leading the dance. Think about that vid of the copper using the cradle attack to the guys neck...

Every attack has a counter. Thus the attack least likely to be countered is the attack least familiar, do you take my point?

I'm a firm believer that most fights are won or lost before the first punch is thrown. Does this strategic training take place in the ring? Yes, there are elements thereof, but not to the same extent.

The other side of the coin - the fight that starts when all the sudden there is a loud bang! and as your before your eyes clear, you feel somebody's hand on your collar and from the haze you see a big fist ****ed next to your attacker's ear and the look of blood in his eyes...

I know you know what I'm talking about, the question that levels us all our, regardless of style, fittness, and philosophy is how to train to deal with it?

Indeed can you? Not to many people do the, let me king-hit you and see what you can do next scenario....although from the look of some of these guys, I may be wrong...fair enough.

I favour the military training philosophy. Break them down to nothing, and re-build them your way. Forms are a stage as well as a training technique. Free-sparring too. Controlled combination training, uncontrolled combination training. Pad, bag and protected opponent training too. And sometimes you start the series over again as the years pass and the student develops, if you follow the point I'm trying to make...

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said here,other than that a properly trained sport fighter does have commitment. on the subject of tricks, how big of a role do you think they play in the average cma guy's training? I have read go rin no sho, and learned alot about strategy from it, and tried to see it from his point of view, given the times that he lived in. when I was in tma, such tactics were not a priority. we learned environmental tactics and such, but nothing that the sport fighter wouldn't also learn. how do YOU train these things?

[Yum Cha]

I actually don't disagree with anything you've said here,other than that a properly trained sport fighter does have commitment. on the subject of tricks, how big of a role do you think they play in the average cma guy's training? I have read go rin no sho, and learned alot about strategy from it, and tried to see it from his point of view, given the times that he lived in. when I was in tma, such tactics were not a priority. we learned environmental tactics and such, but nothing that the sport fighter wouldn't also learn. how do YOU train these things?

7*, yes, I understand we don't disagree, in fact we agree on a lot. When I say comittment, a sport fighter always knows he can tap out, drop a knee, etc. Most won't go as far as letting someone take out their eye or dislocate an elbow. A streetfighter has a slightly different perspective. That is my point, comittment is perhaps a bad word, because anybody that spends hours a week, year after year training has proven comittment, even if its tiddlywinks.

When I ask a question, I try to give my answer first to show my perspective and to maintain an honest discussion. I said I favour the military style, breakdown, rebuild in a different mold, etc, etc. I prefer inexperienced kids to experienced fighters because I can train them Pak Mei style without having to work around any excess baggage. In more detail, concerning those tactics, they are integrated throughout our combination training, they are a priority.

In kickboxing, there is a technique I love, a low front kick that transitions into a sweeping cresent with the opposite foot, delivered before the front kick begins to retract. In essence you step down onto the front kick as the cresent comes across, for a moment, both feet are in the air, but the front lands to anchor the cresent just before it lands, and you gain an advance as well. I've seen it used to knock-out effectiveness because the guard goes down to block the front as the cresent comes through and cleans up the side of the head. Its tricky, if not a trick. But, lots of people know it these days. Those are the kinds of things I like, but built on my techniques. Also, pre-engagement techniques to gain an advantage, or re-take an advantage, based on different kinds of confusion, movement, etc. I found it integrated nicely with that thread on the OODA loop.

I am very interested in training methods and philosophies, and I certainly pay attention to people with real hands-on experience, like yourself.

[Knifefighter]

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.
LOL @ thinking pretend fighting in "street combat training" is even remotely close to life and death.

BTW, "life and death" struggles don't necessarily end quickly.

[Oso]

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.


I mean, if there is a 10th level fighter and he is fighting a 10th level monster, that fight is going to last a while. They both have the same number of hit points, probably a similar AC and probably an equal number of special abilities. It would probably be over quick only if a lot of natural 20's were rolled and all the damage die maxed every time....oh, wait...****, wrong conversation...we're talking about fighting in real life...sorry.

my bad.

[Knifefighter]

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.

"PS
I could be completely wrong"


You are completely right on this one.

[SevenStar]

I was commenting on your post #31 or at least in relation to the direction the discussion was going.


Fighting with and without gloves is very different. You'll break your hand if you attempt many punches unless you've got really hard hands.

The difference in UFC gloves and boxing gloves is huge in what you can and cannot do.

I agree with Golden Arms that two skilled opponents with no rules is going to be over very quickly...that is if they train with that mindset.

There are types of training that make systems for street and for ring different. Although a ring fighter may train to end it quickly but still have the gas to go twelve, it is not life and death if it doesn't end quickly.
Ring fighting, in terms of minimal rules, will allow a practioner to take the sparring element of martial arts to the most realistic level. I suppose it is a means, but there are many things, such as fighting on the ground that I would not advocate in reality unless I had backup standing...not to say one should not know what to do to either avoid or deal with the ground situation.

that response was in response to the techniques he mentioned. All of them can be done while wearing gloves - I was referring to ufc gloves. the fights would end no faster. Bare knuckle, I still don't think they would end faster, but yes, the tactics and preferred striking areas would change. Going to the ground is sometimes an advantage. If I am fighting someone who is a better striker than me, or is just a big, pain-loving guy and is hard to take down with a strike, you may be better off taking him down. It's all situational.

sure, there are types of training that make training for ring and street different, but from what I've experienced in real life and read on these forums, I really don't think it would make a huge difference in the performance of a tma guy and an mma guy on the street. I'd be interested to hear what specific training would set it apart though. What do you guys do?

[WinterPalm]

LOL @ thinking pretend fighting in "street combat training" is even remotely close to life and death.

BTW, "life and death" struggles don't necessarily end quickly.

No amount of training is close to reality...no amount of cage fighting is close to reality. It is an artificial setting.

In reality you are not getting rules, refs, timed rounds...oh why bother, we're all aware of these things.

[WinterPalm]

that response was in response to the techniques he mentioned. All of them can be done while wearing gloves - I was referring to ufc gloves. the fights would end no faster. Bare knuckle, I still don't think they would end faster, but yes, the tactics and preferred striking areas would change. Going to the ground is sometimes an advantage. If I am fighting someone who is a better striker than me, or is just a big, pain-loving guy and is hard to take down with a strike, you may be better off taking him down. It's all situational.

sure, there are types of training that make training for ring and street different, but from what I've experienced in real life and read on these forums, I really don't think it would make a huge difference in the performance of a tma guy and an mma guy on the street. I'd be interested to hear what specific training would set it apart though. What do you guys do?

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.
Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed. You have to take these things into account...or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

[SevenStar]

the more equally skilled two combatants are the more likely it is that any fight lasts longer.

the quicker fights will tend to be between fighters of drastically different skill/experience levels.


I mean, if there is a 10th level fighter and he is fighting a 10th level monster, that fight is going to last a while. They both have the same number of hit points, probably a similar AC and probably an equal number of special abilities. It would probably be over quick only if a lot of natural 20's were rolled and all the damage die maxed every time....oh, wait...****, wrong conversation...we're talking about fighting in real life...sorry.

my bad.

see, D & D IS reality based.

[SevenStar]

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.
Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed. You have to take these things into account...or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

See, we do those things also, other than conditioning the hands, and some of us do that, to an extent. Any conditioning a ringfighter will need he can get from hitting a heavy bag. From shins, to elbows to hands. The thing with hands is that you are usually advised not to hit the bag with no gloves - but I do it all the time, so I condition those also. And honestly, when I trained CMA, the people doing iron palm training had conditioned hands, but not one of them could punch harder than me, other than the sifu himself, who hit a lot harder than me.

the nature of the ring itself dictates the necessity for footwork. If you get backed into the turnbuckle, you're screwed. Even once you get there, you need the footwork and tactics to get out.

mindset is similar as well. nobody WANTS to get hit, but you accept the fact that it will happen, just like you need to accept that in a knife fight you likely will get cut. just like you say getting hit could mean getting stabbed, getting hit could be the hard shot that knocks you unconscious and costs you the fight. I understand what you're getting at, but I really don't see how the differences are that dramatic.

[Knifefighter]

One simple thing would be that we spend a decent amount of time conditioning our striking tools.
Lots of "sport" fighters do this. Ali was notorious for hitting the bag without any hand protection. MT fighters do tremendous amounts of elbow and shin conditioning. Not to mention the fact that they can probably take thigh kicks better than any other fighters on earth.



Another would be mindset from the very beginning of an encounter...getting hit could mean getting stabbed.

Very reasonable from a self-defense standpoint.

However, it is purely theoretical with almost no application unless you spar full resistance against weapons.


or how about limited engagement and footwork because you might be in a small room or surrounded by other people.

Exactly like what happens when one fighter cuts the ring off or has his opponent back into a corner of the ring. Ring fighters are some of the best at reversing position when they are trapped. Sport fighters spend a significant portion of their training time working to get out from a corner or backed against a barrier.

[SevenStar]

7*, yes, I understand we don't disagree, in fact we agree on a lot. When I say comittment, a sport fighter always knows he can tap out, drop a knee, etc. Most won't go as far as letting someone take out their eye or dislocate an elbow. A streetfighter has a slightly different perspective. That is my point, comittment is perhaps a bad word, because anybody that spends hours a week, year after year training has proven comittment, even if its tiddlywinks.

definitely. I'm not getting my arm snapped if I can help it. OTOH though, I have no problem snapping someone else's arm - it's not mine. I wouldn't do it in a competition, but have almost done it at work.


When I ask a question, I try to give my answer first to show my perspective and to maintain an honest discussion. I said I favour the military style, breakdown, rebuild in a different mold, etc, etc. I prefer inexperienced kids to experienced fighters because I can train them Pak Mei style without having to work around any excess baggage. In more detail, concerning those tactics, they are integrated throughout our combination training, they are a priority.

very true. One of the biggest pains in my rear right now is a guy who trained shotokan before coming to us. I was the same pain to my cma teacher at the time, because I had already been training and had had ring fights. He had to try to get rid of all that and ingrain in the cma.

[MasterKiller]

see, D & D IS reality based.

Of course it is! This is the typical Friday night for a KFM'er:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ocKAMTw8ePo

[Fu-Pow]

The training progression for stances is medium, low and then high. High being the hardest to fight from and maintain your connection to the ground.

[Oso]

You are completely right on this one.

as in i'm wrong, given your inclusion of the caveat in my sig?


bottom line is no one knows the outcome of any fight till it happens...so all the hot air that blows around on this forum is just a waste of time.

[Golden Arms]

I dont really disagree with much you say Sevenstar, just encourage you and others to keep an open mind to what I was saying. I am far from a pajama wearing CMA guy that thinks my iron palm is going to beat a leg kick and right cross if i havent dealt with them before...What I AM saying is that a person who already has a good set of tools, and then trains their hands and fingers as weapons, learns the nervous system tricks and exploits that set them up, and can deliver, is capeable of utilizing some modes of attack that you will not have encountered in sportfighting. And I dont know why you always think I mean eye gouges but whatever ;)

An example of a nervous system exploit would be a punch aimed at the heart with the left hand, followed by a right hook to the temple, followed by a left leg kick or blow to the liver. anyone who has done a decent amount of fighting, I would say especially sport in this case, will be familar with combos like this that set themselves up off of the opponents reaction, and if they dont react, then you just hit them with all 3. You asked about tricks like that, I cant speak for all systems, but I know in Hung, that is a HUGE part of our training, and Bak Mei appears to be similar in that regard.

[Knifefighter]

as in i'm wrong, given your inclusion of the caveat in my sig?.

No... I was agreeing with you. I think your post was right on target.

[Shossain]

Hey guys, this is my 'return' to the forum from a while back. I gained tons of knowledge from you guys before and really enjoy hearing all of your viewpoints on various issues, and appretiate your contributions.

Here's my situation...I've been taking these classes of this 8step prayingmantis class (and 8step seems awesome to me by the way) and the instructor (well actually he's just the senior student of 10years, the sifu hasn't been there) said something that shocked me. We train in the stances, you know, typical of kung fu (horse, bow, 1legged, ect.) and he said something like "Now of course, you wouldn't actually use these stances/blocks, it'd look something more like this" and did something like a quick muay'thai block (hand to the ear to block a hook)

Now am i missing something? I always thought you train in kung fu to fight like kung fu, is it just to strengthen your body to be able to use a different style to fight better, or is this a mc dojo. I didn't wanna put him on the spot, so after class i asked him "So you wouldn't use these stances that we practice at all?"

His response was "The stances are more transitions, for like our throws and jointlocking techniques" and demonstrated a few times you would go into bow to do a throw, or a 1legged stance to stick out your leg and trip them.

He also went on to say "doing our typical high block," (which is typical amongst alot of systems i've seen) "wouldn't be practical because it leaves you exposed, so it would be more like this" and did a similar block to before.

Another thing we were doing was thing called a "watchout" drill which is actually a really good drill...we're punching 1 focus mitt, and the person with the mitt swings a nunchuck at you and you either duck under it or jump over it (mostly for cardio/awareness) but we do it from a boxing stance with boxer-style punches.

Is this really how kung fu guys fight and i was unaware of this all this time? Or is he misinformed and not using what he COULD be really good at by now (after 10years experience)???

PS: Im definantly not a troll, i love all martial arts. From what i've seen people have been pretty sensetive these days, so im just being careful to let you guys know that lol


Sorry that I am intruding here as I like to share some of my ideas on this original post.. someone may already have given same or similar opinion and in such case this may be ignored.. I could not go through all the posts against this as I am a new entrant..

Let me put it in this way.. martial art is an art.. it allows you to learn different techniques of keeping you fit physically, mentally, spiritually and also as part of the practice how to defend yourself against all odds.. when one practice different stances, steps, blocks, punches, kicks, etc. that is first to learn how to do and then how to apply and then when to apply what.. so one need to learn every aspect of applying different things that may be needed at any particular moment under certain circumstances.. and circumstances are different when one practice at a school or fight at a ring or at the street.. even circumstances are different when one practice as part of routine practice or for a specific fight.. also.. in general one practice more complex and difficult things than what is required in a real fight.. again practice is more routine works while fighting is full of uncertainty..

So practicing is more for developing skills, making improvement, getting prepared to face different circumstances efficiently and effectively but not necessarily applying everything exactly as it is done in the practice..

[Oso]

No... I was agreeing with you. I think your post was right on target.


ah...my bad. :)