Genuine iron wire

[guy b.]

Short section of correct sequence here. A neural entrainment set which would be useful integrated back into wing chun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg

[planetwc]

Why would this be of any value to Wing Chun?

If you are doing the sets properly you would have no need to "integrate" this into Wing Chun.


Short section of correct sequence here. A neural entrainment set which would be useful integrated back into wing chun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-KH9tFkjg

[Buddha_Fist]

It could even be quite the opposite to being useful. But we could discuss this for hundred years, and not agree at the end. Personally, I would not spend time doing this.

[Hendrik]

It is a different type of art. It will not do any good to import this in to WCK.

[guy b.]

Hmm, predictable response. In truth this set will help your wing chun immeasurably..hung gar encompases wing chun and the power generation sets are much more explicit than the ideas found in wing chun. WC is like a form of shortened HG and iron wire is the source of HG power generation.

Why do you think so many WC, tong long, bak mei etc sifu have a background in HG?

[t_niehoff]

Hmm, predictable response. In truth this set will help your wing chun immeasurably..hung gar encompases wing chun and the power generation sets are much more explicit than the ideas found in wing chun. WC is like a form of shortened HG and iron wire is the source of HG power generation.

Why do you think so many WC, tong long, bak mei etc sifu have a background in HG?

Here you come with your theory again. First you incorrectly thought Robert Chu used "iron wire" to power his WCK. Now you're back with with a slightly revised ("so many sifu") *theory*. Many nam kuen (southern fist) people study more than one form of southern fist -- that doesn't make hung ga and iron wire particularly stand out. Yes, yes, we get it: Hung Ga's iron wire is the key. Your theory is an easy one to prove -- do it. Show us. Make your "iron wire WCK" work in fighting decent level people and people will listen to you. But considering there are no Hung Ga people doing that, I think you're facing an uphill battle.

Terence

[leejunfan]

Hmm, predictable response. In truth this set will help your wing chun immeasurably..hung gar encompases wing chun and the power generation sets are much more explicit than the ideas found in wing chun. WC is like a form of shortened HG and iron wire is the source of HG power generation.

Why do you think so many WC, tong long, bak mei etc sifu have a background in HG?

I am personal friends with Sifu Sharif Bey who is a desciple under Yee Chi Wai (Frank Yee) of Yee's Hung Ga which if I am not mistaken is the line Robert Chu is in. If you'd like I can bring him in here to discuss this further. Sifu Bey taught at my school for quite some time and his skill matches his vast knowledge of Kung Fu. We call him... The Kung Fu C.I.A.

[t_niehoff]

I am personal friends with Sifu Sharif Bey who is a desciple under Yee Chi Wai (Frank Yee) of Yee's Hung Ga which if I am not mistaken is the line Robert Chu is in. If you'd like I can bring him in here to discuss this further. Sifu Bey taught at my school for quite some time and his skill matches his vast knowledge of Kung Fu. We call him... The Kung Fu C.I.A.

Robert learned his WCK body structure methods from Hawkins Cheung. If you look at Hawkins, and how he uses his body, he looks and feels very close to Robert. They use the same method. Hawkins, as far as I know, never trained Hung Ga or iron wire (though he did train karate and tai ji).

People can come onto these forums and suggest anything, and make any claims. True believers are difficult to dissuade. My position is to believe any and all claims are BS until I see it (no disrespect intended either) -- and in the case of training methods, if someone says they produce results, then they should be able to point to evidence (fighting) to support that claim. Guyb's evidence seems to be "iron wire produces great power" (this is a claim all martial arts make, even tai ji -- so where are these great and powerful fighters iron wire have produced?) and "anyone in southern fist who has any power must have studied hung ga" (no names are supplied and it's a broad, general statement, in the case of Hawkins, refuted).

Terence

[leejunfan]

oh hey I'm not trying to name drop in order to prove you or anyone wrong.... just that I think it would be a good idea for someone who actually teaches Hung Ga from a respected name to come in and clear up any misconceptions from poeple who are not certified to teach it but are speaking on its behaf.

[Hendrik]

Hey Guys,

You know what?

it doesnt even have to get into complex discussion and using fighting fighting which is not measurable to see what is going on. dont need to go into the un ended discussion but lots of confusion and ego and name dropping and..... it doenst have to be in opposition. It just have to know what is going on and what are we intent and what are we doing.



Simply check the following power Generation DNA and one can see clearly what is what and how is how.



SLT way of power generation, in the ancient chinese term, it is called using Intention to lead Qi (energy flow type resonance) and let the Qi transport the physical body. ONly this way will turn on your SLT enginee properly and at the end capable of impliment the Saying of Wing Chun Kuen " comes accept, Goes send it back, let go and move forward, using silence to lead action"

and

how is this done?

relax the body, 2, make an intention, 3, wait and let the body response spontaneously by itself. In the begining this might need to take some time, because the body is tense and react habitually and also one's is not clear about how to use one's intention.

without going this way, one will have a difficult time to practive the SLT and the most important is that even one spend 100 years with other methods or way, one is not going to get much out of the SLT/SNT st.


NOtice that the way how SLT done is NOT tensing the body while other style tense the muscle before moving the physical.

It is relaxing the body when one intent to move the physical. NOT tensing it.



Now, investigate the Iron wire or other style, what are they do? does they do the same with our SLT operating process above? if not, then one is pulling a reverse gear.



and then one question how is SLT train one to be able to take mental pressure...etc under stress .....

simple, because one intent and constantly release tension and relax. This after a while of training will lead one to be more relax then before one is training SLT and also very different they those who tense thier body and always in fligt and fly mode and tensing more.



Such a simple stuff, and logically simple. However, in general people doesnt pay attention, and lots of so-called expert trying to import and mix this and that to WCK without even themself knows what is going on. IMHO.


So, dont argue, dont reason, dont even take my word, try it, do it, start from today, when you do SLT/SNT, start simple and ease with a rythm of Intentionally relax, make an intention to move the part of the body to the way you intent to.

ie. relax the body, make an intention to do a tan sau, very important dont think how to do it, but intent and relax, let the body move spontaneously (that is what it means in implementation when the chinese called it Little Idea or quiet the mind or using Silence to lead action) . This way of training is actually is goint to lead one to be spontaneous even in chi sau or other application by cutting down the habitual "thinking and tensing" . this training will lead to what is said to be " Intention move and spirit is already there" type of fast spontaneous response. Not to mention it will lead to inch power issuing.

But the best outcome is ----- training these way is going to help one to live a better live and handling our daily stress naturally. because when we intent we relax and let it happen instead of forcing it.


simple once we know how isnt it?


Peace and enjoy your SLT/SNT. Have a Happy Chinese New Year.

[guy b.]

t niehoff, don't worry, it's just something I heard, from tong long people actually. This is another short southern system, like wing chun, which often lacks power. Some tong long incorporated TSK and improved this massively, getting rid of the arm punching.

If you would like to deny that arm punching is in WC then I don't know what to say. To me the vast majority of WC people are under achievers in terms of power. I know you agree with me on this though so no worries. If Robert Chu, Hawkins Cheung et al. have a different method then more power to them- I believe you. I am not saying that it comes from TSK because you already told me it didn't.

I think it would be good if more knowledegeable people like Robert Chu or Sharif Bey, with experience in both systems, came on the thread and did give their opinion..it's just an idea, not some assault on the integrity of WC. I know there are WC people who hit hard without importing methods from else where..unfortunately they are very rare.

Hendrick, I didn't understand your post, sorry. It sounds like tai chi. I don't believe in chi.

[t_niehoff]

t niehoff, don't worry, it's just something I heard, from tong long people actually. This is another short southern system, like wing chun, which often lacks power. Some tong long incorporated TSK and improved this massively, getting rid of the arm punching.


I wouldn't believe the things you "hear." There is an old saying about not believing anything you hear and only half of what you see. :)



If you would like to deny that arm punching is in WC then I don't know what to say. To me the vast majority of WC people are under achievers in terms of power. I know you agree with me on this though so no worries. If Robert Chu, Hawkins Cheung et al. have a different method then more power to them- I believe you. I am not saying that it comes from TSK because you already told me it didn't.


I agree with you that much of what you see in WCK is the use of localized power. But this is not due to a lack of good power mechanics in WCK, it only reflects the poor training most people do. BTW, a set or form, like the iron wire, will not and cannot by its very nature develop functional power; functional power comes from functional (realistic) training.



I think it would be good if more knowledegeable people like Robert Chu or Sharif Bey, with experience in both systems, came on the thread and did give their opinion..it's just an idea, not some assault on the integrity of WC. I know there are WC people who hit hard without importing methods from else where..unfortunately they are very rare.


The only reason they are rare is because they do not let application be their sifu -- they follow a path someone else, usually someone with no functional power themselves, sets for them. In other words, they are not guided by results but by theories.



Hendrick, I didn't understand your post, sorry. It sounds like tai chi. I don't believe in chi.

Tim Cartmell, of Shen Wu, a BJJ BB and full-contact internal art fighter!, recently said on his forum that when he was studying the "internal arts" in China (he lived and studied for a decade) he asked his teacher about qi in the martial arts. His teacher said, "Forget about it, The more you think about it, the worse you will get." :)

Terence

[Hendrik]

Tim Cartmell, of Shen Wu, a BJJ BB and full-contact internal art fighter!, recently said on his forum that when he was studying the "internal arts" in China (he lived and studied for a decade) he asked his teacher about qi in the martial arts. His teacher said, "Forget about it, The more you think about it, the worse you will get." :)

Terence



It is absolutely true on "Forget about it, The more you think about it, the worse you will get."

His teacher is totally RIGHT

but you are qouting him absolutely WRONG due to your own speculation. This is the problem with people who has no idea what one is facing and keep thinking one know it all.




Read about what I wrote.


"relax the body, make an intention to do a tan sau, very important dont think how to do it, but intent and relax, let the body move spontaneously (that is what it means in implementation when the chinese called it Little Idea or quiet the mind or using Silence to lead action) . This way of training is actually is goint to lead one to be spontaneous even in chi sau or other application by cutting down the habitual "thinking and tensing" . this training will lead to what is said to be " Intention move and spirit is already there" type of fast spontaneous response. Not to mention it will lead to inch power issuing. "


"The more you think about it, the worse you will get." because your mind is not quiet of silence.

IMHO, it is better to not comment on things one have no understanding so that one dont mislead others.


peace

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik, why not go ask Cartmell what he meant -- he basically said that qi had nothing whatsoever to do with MAs, and cited his teacher's reply to show that he had felt the same way.

But since you asked, I did look at what you wrote. I'm sure you believe it. The truth is, however, as close as your nearest MMA gym -- go in and see if this sort of "training" (your word, not mine) really produces the results you believe it does by fighting some decently skilled people. If what you say is true, shouldn't it work?

Terence

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, why not go ask Cartmell what he meant -- he basically said that qi had nothing whatsoever to do with MAs, and cited his teacher's reply to show that he had felt the same way.

But since you asked, I did look at what you wrote. I'm sure you believe it. The truth is, however, as close as your nearest MMA gym -- go in and see if this sort of "training" (your word, not mine) really produces the results you believe it does by fighting some decently skilled people. If what you say is true, shouldn't it work?

Terence


As soon as one can enter the STATE, justified and experience that STATE. One knows.

one doesnt have to go to anyone but enter the STATE.


It doesnt matter who said what, if one can handle and manage one's eeg and Hearth beat rythm data and syncronized with the intended STATE. That simple and scientific. it is not about believe, as soon as one could using the training as a vehicle to enter into say Alpha brain wave, different type of Heart beat rythm....etc.

May I suggest that your TRUTh is about spining your mind mixing and matching some other's words and interpleting others' opinon which sound great but often have no meaning in the reality?

So, There is no what if or this or that or trying to figure out this or that similar to try to ask the Microsoft Window "help" to figure out how to Operate an Apple MAc.


Stop using those go to gym and mma... type of non reference standard and doesnt mean much.

Hook up your body with the biofeedback mechine.
see if your training could deliver under the screening of scientific observation with both relative and absolute reference under different type of condition.
Otherwise, the conversation is similar to those kid arguement of "yes, my uncle can beat yours" type of naive childist non scientific based egocenter emotion talk.


Bring you top MMA guy, bring in the biofeedback machine, and I couch him on the process of Yik Kam and see how much he could improve after the training in a short period of training. That I will take your challenge any time any place. Chinese Internal art does have clear process and superior process technology in different area.


just because you might fail flat under some incident, it doesnt mean others is cannot doing excellent. Others is not you. I am not you. You are not me. I could fail in some thing you did excellent and I fall flat.

Open up Terence, you are hiding behind the MMA stuffs to not face your own lacking of confident and fear of lacking of control. You see, the final analysis is not WCK or MMA or fighthing. It is are we ready to face ourself. and the first step of facing ourself is -- do we know how to use our mind?

You love to post fighting fighting fighting, and do you realized that by posting the samething ten times a day is going to cause yourself to intent fighting and struggling?

Why not try a different direction? Think peace and love?

peace

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, I didn't understand your post, sorry. It sounds like tai chi. I don't believe in chi.



You dont have to believe in anything. you just have to have a clear mind to read and test it out. otherwise, sure you dont understand and why in the first place you post the Iron wire and the comments anyway?

[planetwc]

Chi = energy.
Skill is being able to OPTIMALLY use technique at will, without thinking about it.

Taiji guys, MMA guys, WC guys can all do the same. The training and mechanics will be different for each. As will the underlying principles.

When Chuck Liddel is dropping bombs on somebody in the ring, he is unleashing energy. I'd imagine he is not doing "visualization" and "thinking he is releasing his chi". Don't get wrapped up in this being some sort of mystical thing. It is just power development and being able to hit someone in the most powerful way you can, based on the way you train.
It is ALSO about dealing with attacks and counter-attacks. Parry, slip, bob and weave, etc. Dealing with incoming energy and sending it back out.

Think too much about it and you'll just get clocked. Good energy comes from good training.

[Hendrik]

Chi = energy. ------

IMHO,

In general yes but not quite.

we need to answer what type of the nature or characteristics of the energy clearly.

static magnetic type of force field?
Thermal dynamic type of flow?
resonance type such as the radio resonance tank circuit?

and what kind of force type when this energy interact with physical will manifest?
linear force?
spiral curve force similar to a boomarang type?
Guitar string type of vibration?

and

HOw to fuse this so called Qi with the Physical? what chatalist (sp) needed? (in the ancient chinese case, the Yee is needed to fuse the both to produce or manifest result.


To be real honest, imho, these are some questions needs to be answered and it is a fact that in general the Chinese Martial art training is fuzzy about these stuffs. Perhaps because they are intended to guard thier technology and purposely not make it clear to the public. perhaps, some doesnt have a full view but bit and piec

and

IMHHO, if we need to activate this, we need a full description. since we can today design in Nano technology, we will be able to synthesis this stuffs once we got the technology and process clear. it is not about myth. it is about Engineering if I may comment.





Skill is being able to OPTIMALLY use technique at will, without thinking about it.----


True.

Now, this "without thinking about it" , is a state. This state is related to both Alfa brain wave and some beta...


it is a complex issue. but atlease with our morden technology we could pin point what seems to work and what not. Thus, we could know what type of mind handling technics will work and track it with scientific measurement.

there is a possibility that we can define what it means by "quiet the mind" or "little Idea" in a measurabel quantity way already.




Taiji guys, MMA guys, WC guys can all do the same. The training and mechanics will be different for each. -----

if we look at the above specification differentiator such as type of force and brain wave, we could see, they all might not be the same.






Think too much about it and you'll just get clocked. Good energy comes from good training.----

True.

However, training differently will lead to different result. IMHO,we cant fuzzy about things when we are moving a level deeper. otherwise, we got stuck either have no way to enter the next level or not sure what is the cause and effect. thus, causing un predictable result from training.

Just some thoughts.

[Chronos]

Hi Hendrik,

Good advice on SLT/SNT . Wing Chun doesn't need any additional add-ons if one has found a good Wing Chun teacher.