Little guy vs. Big guy

[Aeturnal]

2 fighters of roughly same skill go at it...big guy weighs about 30 pounds more than little guy...how is little guy able to gain advantage to overtake big guy? whats in his favor and what can he do make the most of that....what do u guys think?

i personally wish theyre werent so many weight classes when it comes to competitions either....light, middle and heavyweight seem good enough, and it would certainly make things alot more interesting..just my opinion anyway

[bodhitree]

being heavier is not necessarily an advantage. A person needs to know how to use their weight, whatever it may be. In Judo I have the hardest time trying to randori with the little guys because they are short and it's hard to get underneath their center of gravity. Use your attributes, whatever they are. If you're smaler, you might be quicker, you may have longer reach, whatever.


Then theres the two other things: technique and luck.

[LeeCasebolt]

2 fighters of roughly same skill go at it...big guy weighs about 30 pounds more than little guy...how is little guy able to gain advantage to overtake big guy? whats in his favor and what can he do make the most of that....what do u guys think?

i personally wish theyre werent so many weight classes when it comes to competitions either....light, middle and heavyweight seem good enough, and it would certainly make things alot more interesting..just my opinion anyway

Unless it's 30lbs of fat, the big guy whips the little guy's ass.

If you're smaller, you need to be better. "Better" can be better conditioned, faster, more skilled, armed, luckier, or more ruthless, but if you're evenly matched except for size, the little guy's screwed. That's why they have all those weight classes.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im a little dude and that sounds about right.

[PangQuan]

evenly matched under the same system of techniques and methods? big guy would likely win, unless luck favors the smaller man.

differnt styles. it depends on many factors.

speed of sight and reflexes (among others)play a major roll against to evenly matched fighters.

its never so cut and dry as one guys is guaranteed to win.

there is an old chinese saying

"when two tigers meet, one will die and the other will be maimed."

if its fists...its really touch and go, generally smaller guys tend to be a hair faster.

if the small guy can get a ko off b4 the big guy....muscles dont protect your brain.

its never so easy as #1 will surely win....in an evenly matched fight.

experience will teach you this.

[Becca]

2 fighters of roughly same skill go at it...big guy weighs about 30 pounds more than little guy...how is little guy able to gain advantage to overtake big guy? whats in his favor and what can he do make the most of that....what do u guys think?

i personally wish theyre werent so many weight classes when it comes to competitions either....light, middle and heavyweight seem good enough, and it would certainly make things alot more interesting..just my opinion anyway

Depends on the training experience of both. I'm not a guy, but I'll very much at a disadvantage sparring bigger people. With the exception of bigger people who have never sparred someone small who is also proficient.

But I must also say, the smaller person had best be willing to take a few hits to close in, or be ungodly fast with the blocks. You can usually tell how much sparring I've been doing by how many feint bruises I have on my face and arms. Arnica works great, but it ain't perfect. :D

[TenTigers]

"Little beat big if little is smart, first with the head, then with the heart"
-The Power of One

You need to be smarter,quicker, gutsier,and more skilled.
all things being equal-the bigger guy has the advantage-which is why we develop lik, ging,and faht-and of course, dahm-"yat dahm, yee lik, sahm gung-fu".

[Oso]

i win all the time.

simple, eh?

:D

[wiz cool c]

Bigger guys usually get gassed quicker. So you can try to let the bigger guy tire himself out by conserving your energy and having good defense. Then when he is tired do your thing.

[Shossain]

In my opinion when you say of having the same level of skills that makes life difficult for both.. specially when both are highly skilled.. low level of skills for both may give some advantage to both and specially to the higher weight by taking advantage of the other making some mistake first.. but at higher skill level there are slim chances of making mistakes..

Skill level also includes the skill to stay on for long.. so at same level of skills both should exhaust almost at the same rate..

But same level of skill does not mean same level of physical structure.. so whoever have a little more reach may get advantage.. also style may play an important role in winning..

So in general weight may not be a major factor at same level of skills..

However, the suggested 30 lbs may make a big difference sometimes.. if it is 130 against 160 then it is almost 25% over weight and both still may have equal mobility depending on physic and 160 may get some advantage.. but if it is 210 against 240 the weight advantage is only 15% and that may not be an advantage at all.. and sometimes overweight may cause trouble..

[Crushing Fist]

2 fighters of roughly same skill go at it...big guy weighs about 30 pounds more than little guy...how is little guy able to gain advantage to overtake big guy? whats in his favor and what can he do make the most of that....what do u guys think?

i personally wish theyre werent so many weight classes when it comes to competitions either....light, middle and heavyweight seem good enough, and it would certainly make things alot more interesting..just my opinion anyway


Who has the reach advantage?

All things being equal size/weight is an advantage. A big one.

There is no such thing as "all things being equal" in reality though.


One thing you can do to neutralize a weight advantage is to keep the bigger guy from moving forward at you. Use angles and an aggresive style of defense.

Don't back up, you'll get run over.

Remember, the winner is the one who makes the next to last mistake.

[viper]

just because they have the same skills doesnt mean they think the same. They will use the skill set diff.

[Juan Nowon]

2 fighters of roughly same skill go at it...big guy weighs about 30 pounds more than little guy...how is little guy able to gain advantage to overtake big guy? whats in his favor and what can he do make the most of that....what do u guys think?

i personally wish theyre werent so many weight classes when it comes to competitions either....light, middle and heavyweight seem good enough, and it would certainly make things alot more interesting..just my opinion anyway

The "little guys" Ive played with seem to be comfortable getting close and using the upward angles. Also, not staying inside for too long... advance...retreat. Using the angles and staying inside CAN be effective in overcoming a longer reach
Obviosly its going to depend how you use what you have.

[Fuzzly]

One thing I love about my school is the large range of body types available. I can't say that we are equal levels (we are all different), but it is definitely great to be able to train with someone 5+ inches taller than me, and someone 5+ inches shorter.

Sorry this doesn't really answer your question, because I don't have the answer.

[Becca]

One thing I love about my school is the large range of body types available. I can't say that we are equal levels (we are all different), but it is definitely great to be able to train with someone 5+ inches taller than me, and someone 5+ inches shorter.

Sorry this doesn't really answer your question, because I don't have the answer.

It's a good answer, because there is no "correct" answer. This is a point-of-veiw issue. A big person will usually say size is an issue. A shorter person is likely to say it isn't size but skill.:)

[SevenStar]

whether you are big or small, size is always an issue.

[LeeCasebolt]

A shorter person is likely to say it isn't size but skill.:)

Only delusional short people. Or little guys trying to sell something.

[Becca]

Only delusional short people. Or little guys trying to sell something.

Like I said, it's a point-of-view thing. My losses have all been a lack of skill rather than size. When I'm "on the ball" I can get inside and mangle a person who has a reach advatige. When I'm not, I eat punches trying to close. Being short limits what I can use, but it also limits what the taller person can use. It's a game of who has the better skill set for their oponant and who has the experience to switch it up when what they are using isn't working. Those are not size related issues, they are universal. I'm not saying size plays no part- it does. But to say the shorter/lighter person is at a disadvatage simply for being smaller is somewhat near-sighted.

Not selling anything, just stating my opinion.

[SevenStar]

like I said before, the closer you are in skill, the more size matters. It's not point of view, but matter of skill level.

[The Xia]

There are many factors that make up a fighter. Different body types offer different advantages. There are techniques that work well for a shorter fighter vs. a taller one and others that work well for a taller fighter vs. a shorter one. Long limbs offer an advantage in reach but can be exploited in grappling. A bigger person, whether he is short, tall, or medium, generally has more natural strength then a smaller person. However, this isn't always the case and the smaller person is in better shape if he makes proper use of the power he has. Smaller people are often quicker. However, this also isn't always the case. A shorter person also has a lower center of gravity. This is a positive attribute that a lot of people don't understand. These are just some things that come with different body types. This doesn’t mean you’re doomed to suck because of whatever shortcomings you start out with. You can get stronger, faster, and build more stamina. If you don’t have much reach, you can get great at short range fighting. Also, you can learn long range techniques. If your center of gravity is high, you can train balance and coordination. If your stamina is lacking, you can improve that too. I feel that thinking you are limited because of your body type is a defeatist attitude. You can always improve your strengths and melt out weaknesses through the forges of training.

[SevenStar]

Not defeatist, realist. if you and I are about equal skill, but I am bigger and stronger than you, you will have a much harder time defeating me. I've been in the ring with guys bigger than me several times, so I know first hand how hard it can be to throw them or KO them. size always matters. Notice I never said you can't overcome it, and also stated that as skill level becomes more equal, it means less. Regardless, it always matters. That's why fighting sports have weight classes.

[Sifu Darkfist]

in the assumption of regulated ring fighting the size matters in an impact oriented way when the impact is supplied by comparable speed since both speed and weight equal power. however it is a fact that the more body to move the slower the striker so this also plays a factor. In the wrestling genre it is essential that the size is close because if both fighters are strong the smaller will hqave to resort to rule breaking to get the big guy off (again first hand experience)

nevertheless in no holds barred the situation quickly changes as i have experienced, as my master experienced in the old san shou rules (no wieght class no protection) because a simple fact is that the human skull or any other area can only withstand so much impact and as long as the little guy generates just enough his speed gives a decided advantage. (the bare knuckle bare elbow factor)

We do not need to cite several old cage matches (although we could) to see this as well.

Lastly there is an extreme to both ends. wee man could not defeat the monster on fearless without an incredibly lucky break. simply because we man can not generate enough striking power to disable the monster.

Tactics are another matter and are a matter of personal preference (most of which i keep to myself or close students) as i am sure much of you do as well.

[Becca]

Not defeatist, realist. if you and I are about equal skill, but I am bigger and stronger than you, you will have a much harder time defeating me. I've been in the ring with guys bigger than me several times, so I know first hand how hard it can be to throw them or KO them. size always matters. Notice I never said you can't overcome it, and also stated that as skill level becomes more equal, it means less. Regardless, it always matters. That's why fighting sports have weight classes.
I kind of concede this point. If the bigger person is better at nuetralizing a shorter person's strengths, it will become a test of size, and the smaller person will likely get pancaked.

[hasayfu]

Interesting topic and reminds me of a story I heard.

A visiting tai chi master known for his fighting abilities was at dinner with a group of tai chi students (not his) in Hong Kong. The students asked the master, what would he do against a big, bulky fighter skilled in Shaolin. His answer, “Deflect and redirect to cover up and find a way to get away.” The students were appalled. They felt that tai chi should be ideal to deal with the bulky fully committed “Shaolin” style. The master said, if the person is close in skill then speed and size play a big factor. It didn’t matter what style the person used.

My take on this story parallels what my Sifu says. Speed and strength play a big part in a fight. If those are equal, skill will be the largest factor. If one has the advantage in the physical area, then it will take an advantage in the skill area to compensate.

Take this to a large level and it’s clear. Put yourself against a 5 year old. Is there any doubt who has the advantage? Could the five year old win? Possibly, but he would need a whole lot of skill to compensate for the size difference.

I want to be explicit. I'm not saying the smaller guy is SOL. I'm just saying he needs to compesate fo it

[SevenStar]

in the assumption of regulated ring fighting the size matters in an impact oriented way when the impact is supplied by comparable speed since both speed and weight equal power. however it is a fact that the more body to move the slower the striker so this also plays a factor.


that is good when comparing cars, but not people. a ferrari speeding at 200 mph can have as much impact as a semi moving at 60mph, but humans don't have such extreme speed differences. tyson is bigger than de la hoya. De la hoya is faster, though not so fast that tyson wouldn't be able to hit him. Do you really think that his speed advantage is enough to make his blow as powerful as tyson's? highly unlikely. the difference in their speed would not be that dramatic.



nevertheless in no holds barred the situation quickly changes as i have experienced, as my master experienced in the old san shou rules (no wieght class no protection) because a simple fact is that the human skull or any other area can only withstand so much impact and as long as the little guy generates just enough his speed gives a decided advantage. (the bare knuckle bare elbow factor)

I wouldn't call that an equalizer, for the same reason. with two trained fighters, the bigger guy has the same chance of cracking your skull. As I said, the differences are not that dramatic. Now, if the skill levels are way different, then yes, but that was not the topic of the thread - it's two guys of comparable skill.


Tactics are another matter and are a matter of personal preference (most of which i keep to myself or close students) as i am sure much of you do as well.

why would you? especially on a forum - chances are you won't be fighting anyone on here. those closed door mindsets irk the bejesus outta me.

[Black Jack II]

Size is a very key thing to consider but so is the context of what kind of situation we are talking about, combative ring sport, two rednecks at a bar fight, a home invasion, car jacking?

Size is such a serious element but if we are talking self defense from a non-generic standpoint, then conditioning, awareness, pain threshold, aggression and yes skill can be a factor, in a fight I don't think things can be thought of in seperate terms, because they are often in synergy.

The question is what ratio of different elements are you facing as over-abundance of one can largely squash the others.

[Pork Chop]

well there's practice and then there's live...

in practice big guys pay for holding back when little guys don't feel that the rule applies to them.
in practice i'd say a big guy can be at a big disadvantage.

in live scenario, styles make fights.
Chris Byrd's a good example.
The guy's made his career out of out-speeding big heavyweights.
Now you take Chris Byrd, who fights at 215+ and put him in with a hard hitting cruiserweight (under 200) like Jirov, Bell, or Mormeck; and there's a good chance this guy who's stood toe to toe with the largest heavyweights, will get his head taken off by a smaller fighter with both power and speed.

This is an aspect a lot of boxing experts have apparently forgotten.
Dempsey beat guys way bigger than him because of his speed and the fact that his style was tailored to fighting larger opponents- much the same for Tyson and Frazier.
Once Tyson sold himself on the idea that he was some, big, 1 punch KO artist, a lot of his skills went out the window.
For Tyson, Frazier, and Dempsey, once it became harder for them to sneak under their opponent's shots, they would have to make adjustments to their style.

Ali was much bigger than Frazier in their fights, but it was always close. Few people would say that Ali's size advantage allowed him to bully frazier, it was frazier who stalked ali around the ring.

style, speed, and power play much bigger roles than pure height and weight.

[The Xia]

well there's practice and then there's live...

in practice big guys pay for holding back when little guys don't feel that the rule applies to them.
in practice i'd say a big guy can be at a big disadvantage.

in live scenario, styles make fights.
Chris Byrd's a good example.
The guy's made his career out of out-speeding big heavyweights.
Now you take Chris Byrd, who fights at 215+ and put him in with a hard hitting cruiserweight (under 200) like Jirov, Bell, or Mormeck; and there's a good chance this guy who's stood toe to toe with the largest heavyweights, will get his head taken off by a smaller fighter with both power and speed.

This is an aspect a lot of boxing experts have apparently forgotten.
Dempsey beat guys way bigger than him because of his speed and the fact that his style was tailored to fighting larger opponents- much the same for Tyson and Frazier.
Once Tyson sold himself on the idea that he was some, big, 1 punch KO artist, a lot of his skills went out the window.
For Tyson, Frazier, and Dempsey, once it became harder for them to sneak under their opponent's shots, they would have to make adjustments to their style.

Ali was much bigger than Frazier in their fights, but it was always close. Few people would say that Ali's size advantage allowed him to bully frazier, it was frazier who stalked ali around the ring.

style, speed, and power play much bigger roles than pure height and weight.
Well said Pork Chop! I was going to post some more on this topic but you pretty much said what I was going to plus a lot more. I think your last sentence really sums it all up.

[SevenStar]

I don't think anyone disagrees with it. But, these are all similarly skilled guys as well. Take a journeyman cruiserweight and toss him in the ring with the heavy and he will have trouble. It's no different with a boxer, though may be more noticeable with a grappler.

[Ravenshaw]

Are we even all on the same page here? As long as no one's saying that size doesn't matter and as long as no one's saying that size is all that matters, I think everyone agrees more than we disagree.

To think that size doesn't matter - even among skilled fighters - is a delusion. Obviously, no one thinks that size is all that matters, otherwise that person probably wouldn't be here.

[hasayfu]

Here's one for the size doesn't matter crowd:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/60685/sumo_wrestler_vs_female_orangutan/

Now the question is it pure animal strength or technique that won?

[PangQuan]

well if the sumo stayed on his @ss/back like the ape did, i doubt he would have gone over.

lol

he toppled like a tower when he stood up.

i say technique....but boy, to be outsmarted by an ape....ouch