Does anyone know anything about this school?

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.gangimartialarts.com/

[Black Jack II]

Maybe Mas Jdut can tell you more as he also knows the area, but I met one of his Cobra Kai Kung fu guys in Roselle, he had a school there.

I was not impressed but I don't know anything about Gangi himself. If you take a look at the site and his bio it seems a little.....well.......odd.:cool:

But he may have some serious skill, I have no idea. I think you could find better, just by checking out the website I would stay away. I do know he has been around a long time.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually the Cobra Kai is master Steven Abbate's club. He does some sort of vietnamese snake style if I remember right? I don't know much about Ganji though. He does not sound like he is describing a Kung Fu system to me.

I am just curious as to what it is he does, and if he's any good or not (From other's who have experiance). I have been aware of him as long as I have been in the Chicago MA scene, but I don't know anthing about him.

[Black Jack II]

Actually the Cobra Kai is master Steven Abbate's club.

Yep, but I think there connected bro. Go look at the Gangi website and you will see the Cobra Kai style under his bio. I think that is where maybe Abbate picked it up.

Maybe I have that backwards. Maybe Gangi got it from Abbate?

[Royal Dragon]

Abbate origianlly learned from a master he met in Chicago's China town. Ganji had to have gotten it from him. I think they all have ties to master John Tsai as well. I know Abbate does at least. I am not sure where Ganji fits into the picture. Untill I checked deeper into his site just now, I did not know they were connected at all, other than being in the same over all generation of Chicago MA's.

[cjurakpt]

lemme get this straight:
1) it's a Chinese style developed in Okinawa and Japan in the 1800's and was taught in Japan by a Chinese teacher in the 1950's (by a master "Wong", no other names)

2) it's historically a "closed door" system, yet somehow an American army serviceman gets a letter of introduction to study

3) they call it kung fu (sory, gung fu), and swing around dan daos, but they wear gi's and use Japanese ranking and terminology

anyone else's BS meter going off?

[cjurakpt]

BTW, Kobra Kai was based in Reseda, California, and as far as I know Sensei Kreese is no longer actively teaching...

:p

[Royal Dragon]

anyone else's BS meter going off?

Reply]
I'm just ask'n questions here....

[Shaolinlueb]

i saw okinawen and kung fu on he same page and i closed it.

[rogue]

Check out the profiles. Some of those senseis are pretty light in experience.

[Black Jack II]

BTW, Kobra Kai was based in Reseda, California, and as far as I know Sensei Kreese is no longer actively teaching...

LMAO!:D

The school does scream bs big time.

[Royal Dragon]

Which ones are light on experiance? I saw most of them with 5 + years on them.

Four of them had 15-30 years experiance in that system.

And yes, the ones doing 3-7 years are light weights compared to my 18 years, but there is no reason one can't teach at that point, especially if they have the gift to teach.

Does anyone have any direct experiance with this school? Other than the annoying Chinese wannabe use of Gung Fu when they are clearly some sort of Japanese system, are they any good? Do they have a reputation, if so, what?

[Black Jack II]

I don't know why people get so iffy with the japenese uniforms. Who gives a sh!t.
what you train in.

Real or not, it states this system was developed in japan, so you could see the influence there if they wanted to answer that question.

If you want to see if they are any good, go get a free lesson or two Royal. Only thing I know is that Gangi himself has been around a long time.

[xcakid]

That little GIF of the grandmaster in his profile. He was doing an American Kenpo defense move. Block, eye gouge, grab groin and pull, step back into a guard.

I would say this is just another kenpo system offshoot. Also seeing how they hold their weapons and the stances they pose in, this is definitely not CMA.

[Pork Chop]

I was gonna defend the concept of kung fu on Okinawa. To say that you should check out some closed door Okinawan Goju, that it looks a lot more like Ngo Cho Kuen than most of the stuff in mainstream media here, but then i saw:

"GUNG MAO GUNG FU was developed heavily in Okinawa, Japan in the mid 1800..."

Okinawa wasn't "part of japan" (read: japanese occupied) prior to around 1880 or so; mid 1800s is stretching it.

[Royal Dragon]

That little GIF of the grandmaster in his profile. He was doing an American Kenpo defense move. Block, eye gouge, grab groin and pull, step back into a guard.

Reply]
I thought the same myself.

[David Jamieson]

it's Karate...I think... and it's not even Karate they're proud of because they call it kungfu which it obviously isn't in the blanket term sense of the word.

[Yum Cha]

You know they don't know what they don't know.

I't doesn't look like a outright rip-off like Shaolin Do, but.

[larryc]

I see this thread and I can clarify a few things for some of you, since I trained with these guys and knew them pretty well years ago. Keep in mind, they might have changed over the years and I am recounting a period from the mid 1970's to the late 1980's.

First and foremost, both Abbate and Gangi deserve respect.

Abbate and Gangi did not train together. They happen to have co-existed long enough in the Chicago area to become acquaintances and probably friends, but they did not learn together, they do not train together (that I am aware of), and what they teach/practice are miles apart from each other.

John Tsai is who Abbate has regarded as his master or teacher over the years, but I think Abbate's training started in his childhood before he met Tsai- I think Abbate boxed in the Boy's Club and studied TKD or karate as a youth. Gangi did not train with Tsai.

Starting with Steve Abbate. First, this guy is a veteran of the Vietnam War and, like all veterans including our men and women fighting in Iraq, he deserves the utmost respect for voluntarily risking his life and suffering physical and emotional hardship. There are newspapers columns - maybe Chicago Sun Times or Tribune- no problem verifying truthfulness here- he served in the Marine Corps and was awared at least one Purple Heart and, I believe, the Silver Star. He had a brother, Richard I think, who was killed in action and whose name is on the Wall in Washington, DC- saw it on on the Wall with my own eyes.

I can understand some of the cynical reactions that I read from some of your posts in this thread. I realize both Abbate and Gangi do not reflect the humble, monk-like images we form of traditional martial arts masters. And they wear flashy uniforms with bright colors and sinister logos, and they claim to have ranks in obscurely named styles etc. So you think maybe they made this stuff up and awarded themselves ranks, like some people do, don't you? I don't blame you for thinking that if you never met them, but read on.

The first time I saw Abbate was around 1974 or 1975, when I just started karate (my teachers learned Okinawan Kempo from Eizo Shimabuku while serving in the US military and being stationed in Okinawa- i.e., Shobayashi Ryu or Shorin Ryu). Abbate came as a guest to spar with a guy in our school who was testing for black belt. What a show-- I was nine years old and I remember it like yesterday. A few years later, after my school closed so my instructor could become a full time attorney, my brothers and I joined the famous "Cobra Kai" in Palatine IL, run by Steve Abbate.

Abbate's classes were designed for one purpose: to teach you how to kill or maim someone who is trying to kill or maim you. Period. He was not trying to teach you how to win point tournaments, how to kickbox, or how to recite art history of Asian culture and to kneel or serve tea properly in accordance with tradition. If you are interested in that, and I respect you if you are, or if you care about having the right number of pleat folds in your uniform, join the JKA shotokan club or take Aikido.

Cobra Kai was extremely intense and violent and there were many injuries. We did not learn or practice forms, we did not spend much time executing basics or combinations, Abbate did not correct students' form/posture etc. Instead, it was a brutally fast-paced session of conditioning, HARD contact self-defense drills of attacking/responding in flurries and finishing almost always with hair-pull take-downs-- on a concrete floor. No pads. Just pain and occasional blood. My brothers and I had good technique from the karate training, but his students lacked in technique except for the more experienced guys who learned by doing enough repetitions and mimicking off visual clues. There was some "sparring"- basically full-contact with "kempo" gloves- wearing your gym shoes, forget foot padding. At one point he introduced headgear which did not prevent noses, lips and ribs from getting crushed. Had my brothers and I not been well-trained in sparring, and had we not been robust teenagers so that we could avoid injury against his students, we might not have lasted. And make no mistake, we could beat some of his guys in "sparring"- but a real fight is a much different deal. Cobra Kai guys were plain dangerous, so just because you could handle one in a sparring session-- even a crazy sparring session - it does not mean you would defeat one for real.

Abbate was(probably still is) an absolutely ferocious fighter. He stands about 5'7" and is thickly built, but he moves like a bolt of lightening. He attacks with rapid-fire flurries of hand strikes that you honest-to-goodnessly cannot see with your eyes. You just hear the sound of flesh being rapidly and repeatedly hammered in staccatto fashion. On a number of occasions I've seen him chop apart much larger and stronger men- and not just his students. His sparring and his self-defense drills blur without much distinction. He was really into iron palm and in class when he would block your arm or "tap" you with a strike it truly felt like a rock hitting you. I think there is something to that iron palm training.

Conditioning was crazy...probably illegal nowadays. He would line us up in horse-stances with our hands behind our backs and side thrust kick us to the ground telling us to tighten up and yell. We had iron palm and large piece of telephone pole that we had to strike bare-handed. He stood with his face a few inches from it to make sure you hit it hard. Sometimes we had to lift the telephone pole as a group and carry it or bench press it etc. He did not tolerate slackers. His barking and insane look in his eyes made you push out those last few pushups, leg lifts etc when you would otherwise want to quit. He would swing a sword as we ran laps and you had to jump the sword-- he made it higher with each lap. We stomped across each other's abs while the other person was lying down. We did self defense only with real knive and real sawed off pieces of steel pipe. And people got real lacerations and had real stitches. Class was stressful and nerve racking- like being in a fight for 2 1/2 hours five days per week. You never knew what was going to happen each class, but you expected pain and possible injury. Saturdays were special--- long runs outside, up a hill. Those of us who stayed were addicts - probably addicted to the overwhelming confidence you would feel walking out of the school. Despite his physical demands on us, he was an affectionate and fatherly personality, very charismatic. He was a great motivator and coach. We would follow this man into battle if he asked.

Abbate himself was most certainly trained in a more formal style of kung fu than he was teaching us. He would do beautiful forms at demonstrations or in tournaments, but never once taught them to us. I used to think he was holding out on us. But, in reality, he was intentionally running a SELF-DEFENSE and CONDITIONING class. And he most effectively achieved his goal. Anyone who lasted a month or more would definitely be able to defend himself in a real situation. No- you would not do well in a point tournament, kickboxing match or a forms/kata competition. And you deservedly could not claim to be trained in any recognizable system of kung fu. But Abbate definitely was.

(continued in next post)

[larryc]

(part 2)


Master John Tsai would occasionally visit Abbate's school and we got to learn snippets of self-defense from him. Tsai was incredibly fast with his hand strikes and his kicks. He could hit you before you could blink. He seems thin in profile but the guy appeared to be rippled like Bruce Lee and I have no doubt his is/was a well-conditioned and skillful fighter. I truly doubt Abbate would pay deference to him or compliment him in any way if that were not the case. So Tsai is most likely for real. I see on Tsai's website that Tsai's son, "Johnny", is running Tsai's old school. I don't know Johnny, but if he trained with and hung around with guys like his dad, Abbate, LeBron and others-- I think Johnny is another person you should have tons of respect for.

Like some of you, I also think Abbate was the inspiration for the Cobra Kai character in "Karate Kid"- only the movie watered down the character so much- made him seem like a creampuff compared to the real Abbate. Maybe nobody would believe such a guy exists so the movie had to lighten him up.

I lasted at Cobra Kai for less than two years before I got a fractured nose that needed surgery (Abbate himself palm-striked me at my blue sash test). He apologized and felt bad, and I eventually accepted it. In fact, a few years later when I was 16 he hosted my Okinawan Kempo black belt test at his school. Of course that meant that I had to "spar"with him. I did well, though like I said earlier, if it were a real fight that would be different. In the next few years I then started to show up at his school occasionally as a guest to spar with his students. I credit him with inspiring me with the intensity and rage to train and condition like a freakish animal preparing for a world title fight, and with instilling large amounts of confidence in myself. Think about it-- those are valuable characteristics and they are hard to cultivate in people. But he could do it.

So- in a nutshell: Abbate is for real, he is skilled in formal kung fu as taught by Tsai, and nobody, under any circumstances, should insult this man.

I met Gangi during high school- early 1980's. I had been training on weekends with my Kempo teachers, occasionally visiting Cobra Kai, training with a mixture of my brothers and my friends, and I decided to call on Gangi's school because it was near my house. Like Abbate, Gangi was very friendly and personal in welcoming me to his school and he invited me to train there whenever I wanted. He did not even ask for money, but I voluntarily made donations anyway. He did not ask me to remove my black belt or to stand in the back or anything like that. His school was entirely different than Abbate's in that Gangi was teaching in a more typically safe environment - (i.e., light contact sparring, lots of pads, light self-defense.) Gangi spent more time with techniques and combinations, and less on conditioning. I think his goals were to provide an enjoyable class for men, women and children in which people did not bleed, suffer fractures, or quit out of fear. He did not teach traditional karate or kung fu in a way I understand they should be taught. He did not teach forms when I was there. It was pretty much point sparring or improvised self-defense. Like Abbate, Gangi appeared to be more knowledgable and capable than what he taught his students. On a rare occasion when class was really small one time, Gangi showed me some forms that were really nice. I presume he learned and practiced those forms under his instructor- Master Borkowski (never met him). I heard Borkowksi is the real deal and trains hard, trains traditionally etc. I was let down that Gangi did not drill his students on precise technique, harsh conditioning, and forms. But who am I to question his teaching decisions? Look how long he has been successful at making a living teaching. We all know that is not easy. He has many current and former students who are happy with what he teaches. Gangi himself is very skilled and can fight quite well. When I would visit his school on Wednesdays we had two hours of non-stop sparring and- with his black belts and with himself, Gangi let us fight heavy or full contact (with headgear and gloves).

Both Abbate and Gangi are trained and skilled in more formal styles than what they were teaching when I knew them. For whatever reasons, they deliberately chose to teach the way they did and it is obvious that they achieved their own successes.

I personally have spent the last 15 years doing nothing but kata, makiwara, and conditioning 5 days per week. I also had the good fortune of learning the Yang style Taiji form about 8 years ago and I still practice it daily. I am currently in contact with my Wushu master about more Taiji lessons. That type of training works for me and, combined with conditioning and makiwara, should adequately provide a self-defense capability. And I haven't had any bleeding or broken bones in a long time. I cannot stress the makiwara enough-- perhaps a more experienced Gongfu practitioner can comment regarding whether or not there is a Chinese equivalent to Okinwan makiwara training. I would appreciate the education.

Peace,

Larry C

[Oso]

:D did ya'll see the hotties in the black belt picture gallary????:D

[Mas Judt]

I've heard about these guys all the way from my earliest days in the MA scene - they were known as tournament schools - which in those days was forms and point or semi-contact - although semi-contact at St.Viators gym was anything but, and worse in the parking lot.

Nothing to add really. I knew Johnny Tsai in passing. He was always very friendly when I met him at different functions. He had a notorious reputation, and frankly that made him more entertaining. He taught a mix of Northern Shaolin and kenpo. His son Kenny was a terror in the flyweight division and had an ongoing rivalry with a classmate of mine.

So, if these guys are doing thier thing, good for them. But I have no idea what it is.

[Royal Dragon]

First, I would like to comment on the Makiwra. I don't likethe training because I feel it is too brutal on the knuckles. In think the Chinese Mung bean bag is a much better thing to hit becasue there is a moveable medium spreading the blow out over the entire surface. I belive this also strengthens a greater area than the makiwra does.

Honestly. I remeber the Iron Plam bag Abbate had at the River Grove school, and I feel you are better off hanging that on the wall and hitting that instead, over a Makwira board.

As for Abbate, I know he was trained in some sort of Vietnamiese snake style if I remember right. I was not there long, but the training made a lasting impression on me and I do wish I could have continued.

As for not teaching you the goods, or holding back, I would guess the opposite happened. Forms were originally for the teachers to organise thier curriculem. Learning to fight and use the techniques in the forms were what was originally taught first. Learning the Form Abbate's way meant you REALLY learned the form, even if you never got the final choreography of it.

I don't have any doubt of his authenticity, but I am curious as to his history and all. When I was there we were learning Wing Chun as an intro style from Rocco Lombardo. But it was clear Master Abbate had his own system to teach after that. I would like to know what that system was, and where he learned it. I vaugly remember it came from a Chinese teacher, and was some sort of Veitnamese snake style, but I really don't know the details. I do know Master Tsai came in much later in his carreer, and he was already a top level martial artist by the time Tsai came on the scene.

Last I saw master Abbate, he had been very sick, and had lost a LOT of weight. I hear he is better now though. I am not sure where he is now, but if your history with him is as significant as you say, I would sugjest you find him, and visit.

As for the topic of my post, I am very curious how Ganji fits into this whole thing now. If he is claiming rank in Abbate's system, then how did he get that?

[MasterKiller]

I lasted at Cobra Kai for less than two years before I got a fractured nose that needed surgery (Abbate himself palm-striked me at my blue sash test). He apologized and felt bad, and I eventually accepted it. In fact, a few years later when I was 16 he hosted my Okinawan Kempo black belt test at his school.

He fractured the nose of a 12 or 13 year-old kid?

What a guy.:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

I wasn't really looking to discuss Abbate really, I was just curious about Ganji's school as it appears to be some sort of kempo school masqueradeing as Kung Fu. I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experiance with them as I am not really planning to sign up for lessons to find out (I have enough Tai Tzu on my plate as it is).

I am really just more curious.

The Legends of Steven Abbate are a whole other topic.

[larryc]

I figured that lengthy book I wrote would trigger quick responses...thanks, guys.

Mas Jdut- funny you mention St Viator gym-- those fights were after my time as a thug and after I moved away from the Chicago area so I never got to indulge, but I went and watched some when I visited because my brother stays in touch with the Chicago martial arts scene. I really liked Jimmy Zibilski's fighters (from Z martial arts) at those St Viator things because they seemed to show up prepared in terms of conditioning. There's another Gangi connection-- one of Gangi's black belts who I used to throw leather with - told me Jimmy Z was at one time a student of Gangi's very early in his training. He introduced me to Jimmy Z. From running into him occasionally, my impression is that Jimmy Z is a totally friendly, standup guy who is passionate about boxing and kickboxing. He had me over to train one day back in something like 1992 and I got to scrap with him and his guys. He's a great fighter himself, and fighters he trains are usually well prepared. I hear that his brother teaches something more traditional, though I have no firsthand experience with him. I presume he is good if he is Jimmy's brother. My active period was in the early and mid 1980's -- the full contact tourneys were in Rockford (Bad Brad Hefton was the local hero) and in Franklin Part at Frank Salemi's kickboxing club. You said you thought Abbate and Gangi ran tournament schools--- true re Gangi, but like i wrote yesterday, Abbate's students did not train in any way for point fighting or forms.

Hey Royal Dragon- thanks for offering your thoughts on makiwara. Just to clarify and for the purpose of discussion and not debate- it sounds like you might misunderstand makiwara based on your saying to hang the iron palm bag on the wall. The iron palm is hand conditioning. The makiwara is developing the entire body in the motion of your punches and kicks. Two different purposes, though the makiwara side-effect is some hand conditioning.

The grotesque knuckle-deformation you allude to is a clear sign someone does it wrong. I have friend in shotokan who made his knuckle look weird and what i found is that he cheaply and hastily hung up one of those magazine-order brick-like contraptions on a wall that does not give when he hits it. WRONG. The makiwara is supposed to flex when you hit it. Not too much flex, but enough so you are forced to plant your feet, twist your hips, and really let fly to make the thing flex. It flexes because it is a board sticking up out of the ground. The pad is just hard enough to hurt a until you get used to it, but not wimpy soft like most heavy bags which would do nothing to train you to hit with the isolated knuckle (or to precisely aim at a small target). When I started years ago I could not hit it too hard without feeling a bruise in the knuckle, so I hit it softly and gradually built up. The past few years I hit it as hard as I can- many times per day- no pain, no odd-looking hands, no injuries (I play guitar well - 30 years). I filled a large plastic tub with 220 pounds of contrete mix and I anchored into it 3 2x4's (6 feet, 5 feet, 4 feet) all sandwiched together and connected to each other at the very bottom with the 6 footer facing me. I attached three of those canvas rectangular makiwara pads at three different heights on the 6 footer. I placed the contraption against the concrete wall in the garage and voila- this thing has held up for years. When you hit the pad, the three boards flex and the tub of concrete is braced against the wall so it won't migrate when you hit it. Try it, you'll thank me.

So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag).

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai. Before that, I think he was in boxing and either karate or tkd. Go check out Tsai's school. Someone there can tell you about Abbate or maybe introduce you to him. If you're lucky you can train with him. It's a rare and valuable opportunity to learn from someone who has done the things he has done, and for so many years.

Royal Dragon- you asked again how does Gangi fit in to Cobra Kai. As I explained, they did not train together and i doubt that they would because they are so different in many ways. He and Abbate know each other from being in the profession at the same time in the same geographic location. Both being friendly guys, they probably say hello to each other at tournaments. At least they did at one tournament in 1983-- I was fighting in the Letuli (Fred and Tom - big names in the karate world) Illinois Karate Championships and my opponent and I got hot-headed and way out of control (I was 18 - forgive me). Abbate was the center judge and he grabbed me by the back of my belt and collar and started pulling me off of my opponent (we were on the ground trading punches) and he shouted at Gangi to "control your fighter or I'll knock him out." Gangi said "he's not my fighter...go ahead and try to knock him out" (Thanks for the support, Joe. And thanks, Steve, for not knocking me out!). I ended up with stitches in my forehead - not from Abbate, but from my opponent's elbow, and a nice second place plaque that hangs on the wall in my parents' basement. What an embarassing display of poor sportsmanship and immaturity. Someone should have revoked my black belt. Hey- I was 18 and full of testosterone. The other guy and I did apologize to each other and he insisted I keep the second place plaque even though I did not want it.

You said Gangi claimed rank in Cobra Kai. I don't know the facts, but I see Gangi uses the word "associate black belt" when referrring to Cobra Kai. I THINK that is like what I got. When Abbate let my Kempo instructors test me for black belt at Abbate's Cobra Kai school, after the evening's events ended Abbate presented me with a Cobra Kai Associate Black Belt Certificate. He gave it to me without any discussion and, quite honestly, I did not view it as him awarding me any rank in his school or system. (I saved it, of course.) I viewed it as his way of professionally acknowledging that I earned a black belt from a school/instructor that he considers reputable and valid. In fact, after having been a student in Cobra Kai a few years earlier, and participating in the testing of two of Abbate's black sashes, I truly doubt Abbate would simply hand out black belt ranks to anyone, including me. The 3 day long black sash test at Cobra Kai was a hellish ordeal that nearly put these guys in the hospital from a combination of injuries and physical exhaustion. It would be so unfair to these guys if he simply handed it out.

That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?

Judge a man by what he does, not what he says he can do. How hard does he train? How often? How long has he trained? Have you watched his form and technique? Is he out of shape or well conditioned? Have you seen him fight? How well does he treat others?

I heard Abbate was sick and I sent a card to him and my friend contacted him. I live out of state, so it's hard to get around to visiting him. I will sometime say hello to him again and maybe let him know some web bloggers were curious about him. While serving in the Vietnam War he was involved in a particularly hairy event that left him hospitalized. The articles I read about it and his re-telling of it indicate he had to engage in hand-to-hand combat. He said that while laying in his hospital bed he made a decision to teach to others the same skills that saved his life that day. He made good on his promise. He was not selfish-- he did not run a commercially appealing school that drew dozens of students to keep him in the money. He had only a few students willing to stick it out and he had a regular day job to pay the bills. Cobra Kai was not about money for him--- it was about sharing this life-saving gift. Some of us learned not just to fight, but to be confident and hard-working. Don't believe negative things about this man. He's a war hero and a giving teacher.

[larryc]

Dragon man- you said: I wasn't really looking to discuss Abbate really, I was just curious about Ganji's school as it appears to be some sort of kempo school masqueradeing as Kung Fu. I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experiance with them as I am not really planning to sign up for lessons to find out (I have enough Tai Tzu on my plate as it is).
********
Gangi is a really nice guy. Just go ask him if you can watch and tell him your concerns. He'll be cool if you decide his school is not for you. Gangi is not teaching traditional kempo, for sure, and I doubt he teaches traditional kung fu. He was and probably still is teaching a hybrid system that he chooses. I think he even says so on his website. When I was there there were no forms and much of it was point sparring. The self-defense drills seemed too padded and light for me.

If you want to learn a traditional system, and I think everyone should, I recommend you find a WuShu school in your area. It's all forms, but what acrobatic and explosive moves you will have! You can always supplement fighting and self-defense skills by joining a boxing, judo or mma club, or getting guys like Gangi or Z's to let you come in a fight. But if you do your forms with intensity and do strength training, that's all you'll need to defend yourself.

Hey- Master Killer, you asked
"He fractured the nose of a 12 or 13 year-old kid?"-- yeah - i was 13 and it is absurd. If I did not know the man as well as i do i would say to myself that his skill must be lousy if he cannot keep from accidentally smashing some kid's face. but he hit everyone that hard--deliberately and regularly---and other noses broke...and other injuries occurred. and he is not the only one who dished it out. we (the students) injured each other, too. i broke other people's noses and ribs on a few occasions. it was insane and unnecessary. but as a teenager it seems cool. BE CAREFUL WHO YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO FOR MARTIAL ARTS LESSONS.

It's unnecessary to train like that. I think you can become a terrific fighter if you train full contact no pads- but strike only to the blue or red dot painted on the tkd chest protector. Don't worry, you'll still be able to hit a guy in the head if you get into a real fight.

[Mas Judt]

"So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag)."

CMA does - bags that go on the wall. You are obviously very into your JMA, put your post shows a very limited understanding of this kind of training. No offense, but don't assume.

[Mas Judt]

"That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?"


Well put. Unfortunately this kind of thing is just the way it is, it seems...

[Royal Dragon]

Mas Judt,
yup, that is basically what i was refering to.

[larryc]

Hey Mas Judt- you're right- I have a limited understanding of CMA and any kind of bag training that is not western boxing or Okinawan makiwara. And I appreciate your careful word choice and your stating that you don't mean to offend. That's classy and by now I presume you and the other guys on this thread are cool like that. So thanks and remember I don't intend to offend any of you, either.

My only exposure to Chinese arts was for that short time that I explained, and as explained it was not typical or traditional. Only in recent years did I learn Taiji from a well-known Wushu master and I continue private lessons when time permits.

[Mas Judt]

yeah, you sound like a cool, dedicated guy - and that one comment could turn into 10 pages on a forum... but there is nothing wrong with not knowing something, despite what some might think...

[Royal Dragon]

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai.

Reply]
No, Abbate was an accomplished martiala rtist long before he met Master Tsai. He was fromally trained in something called Tai Kit Kune. That is the Snake style I was refering to. I am not sure what it is, or where it comes from though. I was under the impression it was a Veitnamese branch of Chinese Kung Fu.

[Black Jack II]

Here is a bio on Abbate. He seems like on of those old fighting cats from the late 60's. From what I have heard from different sources is that Chicago was a wild enviroment in those times for kung fu schools, dojo wars the works.

Oddly, I do remeber one of his students stating it to be Veitnamese system, but here it is called Grand Snake Fist and it is attributed in this article to be a northern shaolin system.

Either way, it does not matter, guy has a wicked history.

http://www.tsaiskungfu.com/abbate.htm

[Royal Dragon]

OMG!! he graduated from the same Highschool as I did, only 4 years before i was born!!!

[Mas Judt]

well, I found what Kenny Tsai is doing these days...

http://provisoprobe.blogspot.com/search/label/Kenny%20Tsai

Apples don't fall far from trees... although a friend knows him and says he's actually a great guy. Folks who never get out of thier bubble tend to come off bad in situations like the one here...

[Royal Dragon]

The Bio states he was med evaced out in 1966. The story I heard while in the school is that he got caught by vietkong, was out of ammo, injured and armed only with his Ka Bar. He apparently fought single handedly a good number (I don't remeber how many, maybe as much as a dozen) to the death before help arrived.

Abbate is a living legend in the Chicago area.

[Black Jack II]

In his supplemental testimony he tried to portray it as Gibson's Steakhouse with tits.

LMAO...that is funny.:)

[Mas Judt]

It's a good story - if all true he's a f@cking hero.

But honestly he was unknown in my circles and I was only aware of him because of the 'cobra-kai' patch at St. Viators.

He's probably a legend in his circles, but in 'Chicago' as a whole? Nah.

Not to take anything away from him, but the most I ever heard about him was from RD. He wasn't even on the radar of anyone I trained with.

War hero - you bet. Legend in Chicago. Get over it.

[XinKuzi]

I have seen Ganji's school competing at a couple of tournaments. The kata I recall seeing was just karate or kempo, with occasional attempts at tiger claws thrown in at odd times. The school definitely presented itself as kung fu.

[Black Jack II]

I may be wrong, but at one time I swear Gangi's school was stating they did mantis kung fu, I could be confusing that with the Valleri school in schaumburg though, at one time it was kenpo than poof.....mantis.

[Mas Judt]

Hah! I was behind that!

Hooked them up with real teachers - converted all the Villari guys in the area to something better. What they did with it was up to them.

Your welcome.

[Black Jack II]

Hah! I was behind that!

Hooked them up with real teachers - converted all the Villari guys in the area to something better. What they did with it was up to them

LMAO..no way!!

A close friend of mine went to that school back in the day while I was working on something else. I remember going to watch him in class once and was like holy cr@p 90% percent of the class is stretching.:D

Later he told me that it went all Mantis. When it transformed to the mantis/shaolin kenpo hybrid he then went to study kosho-ryu in Roselle on Nerge road. I think it was the Bruce Jucknik line.

[Mas Judt]

Yep. I'm the guy who got Juchnik into the other Villari schools in Illinois. Heck - I flew the f@cker out to Chicago to mee them. (Course I got them to pay for it)

I'd met a guy who bought the schaumberg school - I thought the Villari guys were tools, but the local intructors were nice guys - so I pointed them in new directions.

Honestly, the guy in Shcaumberg was pretty much a f@ck up. He destroyed his own school through stupidity. But the other guys were good, tough guys... once exposed to other stuff they walked away from the Villaru stuff.

Just another day doing good work...

[larryc]

Hey XinKuzi - your statement "I have seen Ganji's school competing at a couple of tournaments. The kata I recall seeing was just karate or kempo" might give karate and kempo a bad name. No offense to Gangi, as I threw him some praise in earlier posts, but a practitioner of karate or kempo he is NOT.

Karate or Kempo as passed along by Okinawan masters who founded the styles to their successors is clean, effective and graceful stuff. Check out Eizo Shimabuku at http://www.toyei.com/ so you can see what Karate is and you won't confuse it with what Gangi does. And check out this guy Stanic Milos (http://www.karate.org.yu/articles.htm-- check out his video clips of bunkai) who also does a decent job at presenting it realistically. The "bunkai"- or applications- of the katas/forms is what karate is supposed to stress- along with conditioning and drilling for skillful execution. Very few schools do this and that is how karate gets a bad name. Most suburban strip-mall senseis are clueless about this aspect of training. Unfortunately real karate schools are far and few between.

The writings/interviews of Shimabuku and the other acknowledged masters of his generation all say the same things: heavy repetition of intensely executed kata develops the footwork, body twisting, reflexes needed to use the moves for real; makiwara is necessary; and strength conditioning is totally important. Yet those are the three most neglected things I see in most so-called karate schools. In fact, they are not just neglected--- they are usually ABSENT altogether.

You CMA guys might appreciate that Shimabuku and all the other karate masters who are legit fully declare and acknowledge that Okinawan karate evolved from islanders being taught self defense by Chinese martial artists who were living in Okinawa before it was occupied by Japanese. Karate developed as a watered down or simplified version of Chinese arts- designed to quickly help farmers and fishermen who cannot train all day long like professional soldiers or Chinese monks. Karate forms are not as complex as Gongfu forms. I've had the good fortune of seeing in person Master Hu Jianquiang execute the most complex forms with perfect form, explosive power, and blinding speed. (http://www.wushucenter.com/Default.asp?page=masters). If you ever get a chance to see or learn from Wushu masters, go do it.

Karate was meant to be a fast way to learn to fight for people with limited time. This does not diminish the achievement of the great karate masters-- they attained a higher level, but karate started out quite simple. (It's like playing jazz on a harmonica versus playing Twinkle Little Star on a piano-- the simpler instrument can still achieve more in the hands of a skilled person.)

[Royal Dragon]

So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?

[Black Jack II]

Yep. I'm the guy who got Juchnik into the other Villari schools in Illinois. Heck - I flew the f@cker out to Chicago to mee them. (Course I got them to pay for it)

Heh...by that line I take it Mas Judt is not a fan of the Juchnik.:D

I know only a couple of the Kosho-Ryu guys, one of them seems to be very talented, a nice person, but man o man sometimes it seems that Bruce is like a diety in those studios. The art seems interesting from what little I have been exposed to it, it seems indepth, my kenpo play/exposure was more of the older McSweeny style material, where that looks simple in terms of context, the kosho-ryu stuff seems to be vast, at least from the outside looking in.

[Royal Dragon]

My ex girlfreind did Mcsweeny Kempo through Tom Saviano. I thought it was good stuff. They had really fast hands. I got to spar with them once. I started with thier midlevel guys,and got moved up the ranks till i was totally pummled. I wish I could do that more often. :D

[Black Jack II]

My ex girlfreind did Mcsweeny Kempo through Tom Saviano.

I don't know anything about Tom with the expection that my bud sends his kid there twice a week for the last couple years for kenpo training. I heard some of his stuff is not like the old Mcsweeny program, that it has other fusions in there. I am not saying that is bad, the guy seems to have been around a long time and is very popular.

[Royal Dragon]

He teaches techniques and applications first. His first rank through Black belt curriculem is basically the form he had to develop for his Black belt test. After that I think they do more of McSweeny's stuff.

They are a great bunch of guys there. I used to go out with them from time to time when I dated Theresa. They are really big on mixing it up full throttle.

Theresa got kicked by one of the higer up girls a little too hard once during sparring, and I ended up taking her to the ER. Turns out it was just a bone bruise, but it was a bad one.

Even Saviano's girls are tough as nails.

[larryc]

Royal Dragon- you asked "So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?" -

He treats people with respect, attracts a lot of students, and probably makes good money. As for his martial arts, at least when I knew him he was teaching good point/semi-contact sparring, his idea of practical self-defense, light basics, and no forms. I doubt any of it was a traditional system. He could be different now-- that was years ago.

Go visit Gangi. He was always a super friendly and open-minded guy. I think you could inquire about what he teaches without ****ing him off. If it were Abbate (at least when I knew him), on the other hand, I'd say don't visit and ask those kinds of questions.

I remember one visitor at the old Abbate school was a blackbelt in tae kwon do and he walked in with a bit too much swagger and bragged about his tournament winnings and asked if Cobra Kai "sparred a lot" and said he only believed in sparring "hard"-- and Abbate smiled and said "Sure...we spar..." You guys can figure out the rest. To his credit, this guy came back - bruises and all - and hung in there for a few months.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon- you asked "So based in independant obvservation, what does Ganji actually do?" -

He treats people with respect, attracts a lot of students, and probably makes good money. As for his martial arts, at least when I knew him he was teaching good point/semi-contact sparring, his idea of practical self-defense, light basics, and no forms. I doubt any of it was a traditional system. He could be different now-- that was years ago.

Go visit Gangi. He was always a super friendly and open-minded guy. I think you could inquire about what he teaches without ****ing him off. If it were Abbate (at least when I knew him), on the other hand, I'd say don't visit and ask those kinds of questions.


Reply]
I am more curious as to the opinions of independant obvservers. I ma really not curious enough to actually go and find him. amybe if I was on the road, and passed his school by happen chance, but I am just too busy to launch a major thing. I still have to go to lunch with Mas Judt, and he's been back here over a year now. I was supposd to go spar with these karate guys not more than 4 minutes from my house, I haven't had time for that ether.

Heck, I was supposed to go to guys with in my own group 2 weeks ago, and work with some of them on my system, and I haven't even done that!

I remember one visitor at the old Abbate school was a blackbelt in tae kwon do and he walked in with a bit too much swagger and bragged about his tournament winnings and asked if Cobra Kai "sparred a lot" and said he only believed in sparring "hard"-- and Abbate smiled and said "Sure...we spar..." You guys can figure out the rest. To his credit, this guy came back - bruises and all - and hung in there for a few months.

Reply]
LOL! That sounds like the Abbate i knew!! Another story, a local Chung moo quan school was bragging about an imaginary confrontation with him, where the "Third Degree" who was managing the school was going on and on about breaking Abbate's elbows. He got wind of it, went to the school and had the Chung moo quan guy running for his life! As I heard it (From both sides), the CMQ instructor ran right out the back door of the school to escape!

[Mas Judt]

While I have met Kenpo guys I respected, I am not a fan of American Kenpo per se. Juchnik is actually a VERY talented player - in my early years I was in a school affiliated with him. But I find the character of a lot of the people he has had as associates to be less than stellar - and a significant amount of his current curriculum was extracted frm Willem deThouars material - only made obscure and confusing.

He, himself is VERY impressive, even by my standards today. Hell of a player. But a lot of nonsense, and frankly, I just don't care for the American Kenpo brands. Just a personal choice, really.

[Black Jack II]

and a significant amount of his current curriculum was extracted frm Willem deThouars material - only made obscure and confusing

I heard a story regarding Willem deThouars and Bruce from one of the kosho-ryu players. He stated that Bruce kinda found Willem working as a custodian in a high school one day while doing a seminar, while Willem was watching them do the seminar, he then punched a steel doorframe and dented it, intrigued Bruce called him over and thus began the relationship.

I have NO IDEA if any of this is true, if its made up or if its got some small kernel of salt to it. Also do the Kosho cats brand themselves as being related to American Kenpo, from what little I know about the system, it seems they try and go the other route away from Parker, more of the traditional japenese outlook.

Cheers,

[Mas Judt]

The story IS true. There was a big 'kenpo summit' thing - AK and KSK guys there. Willem thought they were tools when they talked about power - when he walked away he said 'THis... is power...' and so it goes...

Juchnik was a Tracy & Kajukenbo guy - he adopted the japanese forms as he integrated willem's material - which makes it a very wierd system.

Like I said - he's a hell of a player. I respect his skill immensely.

I just think a lot of his followers (that I met) are questionable.

[Black Jack II]

The story IS true. There was a big 'kenpo summit' thing - AK and KSK guys there. Willem thought they were tools when they talked about power - when he walked away he said 'THis... is power...' and so it goes...

Nice. That is a cool story then.:)

[larryc]

He Royal Dragaon- you mentioned : "Another story, a local Chung moo quan school was bragging about an imaginary confrontation with him, where the "Third Degree" who was managing the school was going on and on about breaking Abbate's elbows. He got wind of it, went to the school and had the Chung moo quan guy running for his life! As I heard it (From both sides), the CMQ instructor ran right out the back door of the school to escape!"

Are you talking about those Chung Moo Kwan guys in Arlington Hts-- or somewhere near there? I grew up in AH and two guys I knew in high school were CMK guys and they always talked trash about how all other martial arts were crap except CMK and that their master was the deadliest and that they had special CMK techniques that could kill with one touch...etc.etc...I invited them to slip on the gloves with me and they declined, not surprisingly. If it's the same group, I hope Abbate spanked them.

One of those guys I knew in high school runs a martial arts school in AH now but he purports to be teaching various Chinese arts and not CMK. One of my older brothers checked him out for a while and caught him and his partner in the back room viewing Ba Gua dvds to prepare for class - after they lied and said they were getting trained in the stuff from some master.

Speaking of Korean arts--Master Yang is an amazing master who has a school in Des Plaines across from the train station by NWHY. The school has been there for decades. One of my brothers (I have a few) trained there a few years and I got to go when I was in town visiting. Master Yang's sign out front says "Judo Karate" but he teaches what my bro and I think are Hapkido and some non-sport form of TKD. It's a lot of hands like karate. He speaks Korean in class. The workouts are really tough and the throwing and landing take a lot out of you, too. No wonder the guy is built like an NFL player. It's amazing that he is so old but so **** strong and quick. This old dude can kick serious ass with those Hapkido moves like Bong Soo Hahn did in the Billy Jack movies.

[Royal Dragon]

I have had a lot of experiance with Chung Moo Quan guys. I may know the one in Arlington hts. That group was originally headed up by aguy named Glenn Gottner. He had a guy named Jim Perri running it for a long time. Perri eventually ended up owning the school.

I think he is in Yorkville now, and I don't know if he has anything to do with the school anymore.

Thye started in the Glenview school, moved to Roselle, and Shaumburg, and finnaly to Arlington Hts.

As Master Abbate told the story, the CMQ guy ran for his life before anything physical could happen. That was at a different school though, not AH.

I did some research on CMQ's so called master. It turns out he was barely a Black Belt in Kong Su Do, and has about 12-14 months training in Lui Shui Tien's Longfist/Mantis & maybe some intro to his Bagua system. He might also have been under one of the group Chinese masters Lui Shui Tien ran with back in Korea. Either way, he's from that circle, and he didn't get very far in it.

[larryc]

Hey Royal Dragon--- it is to be understood to all who read this that in fairness to Glenn Gottner, I have never trained with him nor have I even seen him since 1983, and one of my brothers trained with him recently and likes him (despite the alleged deception). How's that for qualifiying a statement?

But- I am an honest man so I will identify the CMK guy I was referring to as Gottner. Yes, my brother was training CMA with Gottner recently and it was my brother who caught Gottner and his buddy viewing the dvds before teaching the same stuff to the class and telling the class they were learning it from a master. That's just wrong...yet my nice bro says despite that he likes Gottner and still thinks highly of him. (Lucky for Gottner it was not my other brother, who would have handled it a la Abbate.) I find it totally unacceptable and whether or not Gottner is any good is not the issue - the issue is honesty to customers.

In a gesture of respect since one of my brothers likes Gottner, I will say that when I went to high school with Gottner he seemed like a pretty nice and reserved guy. I didn't hang around with him but we had mutual friends. Gottner did not seem particularly athletic, but I knew he was in CMK. I don't think any of the CMK students who boasted or disrespected other schools can be blamed personally-- I knew a few of them and they all spewed the same words as if scripted-- leading me to conclude that the CMK instructor was brainwashing teenage students.

Again- in fairness and respect- for anyone thinking of training with Gottner, don't assume my account is totally accurate- though I believe what I say. Give him a chance and judge him for yourself. I apologize in advance to Gottner if I got the facts wrong.

[Royal Dragon]

I have not spoken to him in a long time. I would not mind some contact info if you would be willing to PM me with it.

Last I heard, he was under Master Jerry Cook out of Arizona (or was it California, I forgot which).

The CMQ guys had it roough, because they put their hearts an souls into thier training, only to find that in the end it was all fake made up stuff. By that tijme many of them had schools full of students, and had no real material to teach.

although I hate to advocate teaching off of video, its quite a bit better than teaching Chung Moo Quan to anyone. Even the legit stuff in CMQ was so badly taught that it is hardly recogniseable to the original lineages it came from.

Hopefully they have a close by teacher to guide them at this point. I have done the video/book learning thing in the past myself. I did find benifit, but it really took a live teacher to make my most significant advances.

[larryc]

He Royal Dragon-- I was able to google this quickly:

United Martial Arts
Mr. Glenn Gottner
26 Evergreen Plaza, Arlington Hts. IL 60005
Home: (847) 459-7660
EMAIL: peanutmm7@msn.com

the site says updated as of mar 21, 2006. The same web page (http://www.mararts.org/active/BB1.shtml) says

Chung Moo Quan:
Glenn Gottner, 4th Degree
William McDonough, 4th Degree
James Rath, 4th Degree

you said: "although I hate to advocate teaching off of video, its quite a bit better than teaching Chung Moo Quan to anyone..." i agree and i even think experienced martial artists can learn beneficial things from videos. the part that bothers me is telling your students that you are passing along training you got from a master when in reality you are watching dvds... that is the style I call "Take One's Dough".

here's jerry cook stuff: http://www.unitedmartialarts.com/Cook_p1.htm

he is in arizona and gottner is in illinois, so maybe the train together by video recording each other and watching their dvds of each other?

ok, i don't know the man, but check out his web page. I'm a little suspicious of anyone who presents themselves in such grandeur-- and i don't believe anyone who says he is an "expert" in more than a half dozen or dozen forms, much less 108.

"master Jerry Cook is a true Master of the Martial Arts. He is a 7th Degree Black Belt in Karate and a Master of Chinese Kung Fu, specializing in traditional Shaolin and Wu Tang styles (internal and external arts). He has authored eight books on the martial arts, won over 50 tournaments, is an expert in 108-forms and has been teaching for over 30 years. He specializes in instructing high-ranking Black Belts in exotic weapons, forms and training systems. His extensive knowledge and expertise have made him an incomparable resource to the United Martial Arts schools throughout the nation, not to mention many other styles and schools. The following pages provide some of his history and credentials. Jerry is a good friend and a remarkable asset to the world of martial arts. "

..hmmm...must have written that himself...ya think?....

"an expert in 108-forms and has been teaching for over 30 years..."-- he must be insanely good to not only remember 108 forms, but to be an "expert" in them...how many hours of practice is that to do each one one time?...and if he's been teaching for over 30 years, that means he started teaching around the time of his first lesson.

"an incomparable resource to the United Martial Arts schools throughout the nation.." i checked, the uma formed in 1996 and if you pay $50 and agree to give them a piece of each student's money you can be an incomparable resource, too.

[Mas Judt]

Before I heard of Jerry Cook, I bought a tape at an MA event in San Jose. The tape purported to be 'Fukien White Crane."

It was actually Hung ga Fu Hok Kuen - and executed by someone who apparently never actually learned the system.

It was Jerry Cook. My first impression is the empty barrell makes the most noise.

[larryc]

Hey Mas Judt - you said it was jerry cook in the disappointing video- and I am not surprised, even though I never met the guy, since his ridiculous-sounding self-proclamations of greatness are a major indicator that something is wrong with the picture.

I like your "empty barrell" illustration. Here are some more that apply: Where there is smoke there is usually fire....where there is smell there is usually s_ _ t.

It's too bad the unsuspecting beginners fall for these con artists. It gives honest martial artists a bad name.

[Mas Judt]

It just seems typical to me that the guy the ex-mooers hook up with is kind of a tool.

[larryc]

So Psycho M you have further confirmed my suspicion of jerry cook. or is it "kook"?

Yes Mas, the ex-mooers...i see the pattern...as the dog returns to his vomit, so the fool repeats his folly.

[Johnny Tsai]

well, I found what Kenny Tsai is doing these days...

http://provisoprobe.blogspot.com/search/label/Kenny%20Tsai

Apples don't fall far from trees... although a friend knows him and says he's actually a great guy. Folks who never get out of thier bubble tend to come off bad in situations like the one here...

Hello Mas Judt:


Not sure what the apple does not fall far from the tree comment meant...especially when tying into that negative article.

If you are from Chicago, then you would know that Grandmater Abbbate does indeed have a citywide rep as being legit and beyond all levels of toughness.


For the record Tai Kit Kuen stems from Hong Kong, Not Vietnam. It is also known as "Grand Snake Fist" hence the name Cobra Kai.

And finally, our family system does not Combine Northern Shaolin with "Kenpo".


Anyone interested in learning more about my dad can visit the About Grandmaster page at our family site www.tsaiskungfu.com.

JOE GANJI is a Kenpo guy, He and Tom Saviano refers to Kenpo as Kung fu as do a lot of people...big deal...

Quit putting the limitations of "tags" on what people do and grow as martial artists, or visit one of thee guys and find out first hand what they are truly about. I AM SURE THAT YOU WILL BE IMPRESSED BY ANY OF THEM, SKILLWISE OR OTHERWISE AS HUMAN BEINGS.




RegardS,


WAYSUN "JOHNNY" TSAI

[Nick Monticello]

Kung Fu is from China, Kem/npo is from Japan. It IS a big deal when you can't even get the name of your art correct. Someone looking to learn an authentic Chinese art will be mislead by the use of Kung Fu for a Japanese base system.

To call Kempo, KungFu is dishonest, it's not just a "Tag". When he is dishonest, it does not matter how good he is.

[Johnny Tsai]

Kung Fu is from China, Kem/npo is from Japan. It IS a big deal when you can't even get the name of your art correct. Someone looking to learn an authentic Chinese art will be mislead by the use of Kung Fu for a Japanese base system.

To call Kempo, KungFu is dishonest, it's not just a "Tag". When he is dishonest, it does not matter how good he is.



Nick,


If it's that big of a deal, you are in Chicagoland, go to his school ask ask him to his fac about his lineage, don't call him dishonest over the internet...what is that going to acomplish? Overall, it does nothing to better martial arts in general.


Has he ever been dishonet directly to your face?



I sure he does't even maintain his website himself. As far as traditional CMA goes,
If you are still with Andrew Lee's Bei school, good for you, he has nice traditional forms.


Regards-


Waysun Johnny Tsai

[Mega-Foot]

Well, maybe he hasn't been dishonest with Nick, but he has been both dishonest and disrespectful to me. If you want the details, I'll tell them in private. Or if it warrants a thread, make one and I'll fess up.

[Mas Judt]

Hey Johnny,
I knew your father, and was rather fond of him in some ways even though our interaction was short. The apple comment refers to things politely left unsaid to the public. Lets just say your dad had a lot of interesting business deals. Any judgement you ad is your own.

FWIW - your brother Kenny used to fight a classmate of mine all the time back in the 80's - Bobby Joe Ross. Great fights. Kenny had a heart of lion. (He probably still does.)

Mas judt

[Johnny Tsai]

Well, maybe he hasn't been dishonest with Nick, but he has been both dishonest and disrespectful to me. If you want the details, I'll tell them in private. Or if it warrants a thread, make one and I'll fess up.


Mega-Foot,


Ok. Here is my final thought on this. I am sorry if he has dis-respected you, again, it should be brought to the man directly, face to face. I don't care to hear about it, it does not concern me, at least I hope not. But, overall it's my not my business and I don't think it's anyone else's either.

However, Starting slanderous rumors, just hurts martial arts period. If Nick did have a bad interaction With Joe Ganji, Would it make him give a Bias review of Joe Ganji's school? who Knows...But the proper and adult way to seek the truth would be to call the man or make a visit.

However, if Nick did not have a direct, dishonest or disrespectful encounter with the man, than what does that say of Nick? (in theory of course, I have no idea who Nick is.)

I just found out today that my father taught a hybrid of Northern Shaolin and Kenpo on this site! Again, mis-information from the mis-informed.


That's the problem with these web-site/forums, too much mis-information and too many eager people ready to believe what they read.


All the best-

Waysun Johnny Tsai:o

[Black Jack II]

Johnny,

Mega is a troll man, totally skip it and you will save time.

[Johnny Tsai]

Johnny,

Mega is a troll man, totally skip it and you will save time.

Black Jack,


That's cool, I wasn't about to contact him regarding this anyway. Thanks.:o

[larryc]

Master Johnny Tsai is teaching an important lesson to everyone by responding humbly and with self-control to remarks that imply negative things about the character of his father, his brother, Steve Abbate and Joe Gangi, and that attack the credibility of his martial arts style. He's obviously being more polite than other people.

I would not have stumbled upon this thread or even this web group if I had not googled Steve Abbate's name in an effort to check up on how my old Sifu is doing these days. Had I not already known him and Gangi well, and had I believed everything I read, I would have been greatly misled by some of the things I read here. Be careful what you say.

The only way to judge a person is to visit and preferably train with them- so you can see their technique, their conditioning, and their ability, and understand their character. Just telling me your style, your rank, your title, your teacher's lineage doesn't mean all that much if you don't practice hard and condition your body. There are plenty of bad martial artists at good schools and in good styles.

Master Tsai, please give my best regards to Steve Abbate and let him know you heard from the youngest of the Cruz brothers-- Larry. I live on the East Coast for the past 11 years, but I'll be in Chi town late in the summer-- please let me know if there are any tournaments or events in late July or early August in which I might meet you or run into Abbate. Maybe some of the guys posting on this thread will also go.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am up for going if there is an event!

[xcakid]

Hmmm.....interesting. All of my belt certificates from Shaolin Kempo with USSD and Villari reads:

".....has completed all requirements for the rank of ___________ in the art of Shaolin Chuan Fa.........."


On my Ralph Castro certificate it does say say Kenpo Karate rather than Shaolin Chuan Fa.


I notice on your website that your system is Shaolin Chuan Fa. I am sure there is a drastic difference in my Shaolin Chuan Fa vs yours. Master Tsai, any thoughts on this?

[Johnny Tsai]

larry C,


I will prob call and see how GM Abbate is feeling next week and will let him know that you sent you said hello.

Originally Posted by Nick Monticello :
"Kung Fu is from China, Kem/npo is from Japan. It IS a big deal when you can't even get the name of your art correct. Someone looking to learn an authentic Chinese art will be mislead by the use of Kung Fu for a Japanese base system."

To call Kempo, KungFu is dishonest, it's not just a "Tag". When he is dishonest, it does not matter how good he is.


To Nick,

I was curious about the connection did some research on the Kung Fu/Karate Kenpo/Kempo debate about 2 years back, and googled all kinds of links to Shaolin Chuan Fa Kenpo/Kempo. My findings is that Kenpo/Kempo literally translates into Chuan Fa, I guess that's why many call it Chinese Kenpo/Kempo or Shaolin Kenpo as in Shaolin Chuan Fa or how ever you want to call it, and please correct me if I am incorrect, but didn't the word Karate originally mean "China hand" before it was changed to "empty/open hand"? So in the end , is it not just a tag?

I agree if you are looking for Longfist and PlumFlower forms, A Kenpo school is prob not going to fulfill your hunger. But reseach shows that it stems from China and therefore if some wish to call it Kung Fu, is not being dishonest.

For the record the word though "Kung Fu'" does not translate into "Authenic Chinese art".

It also does not translate into martial art/war art, Wushu does.

Some will tell you that"Wushu" Is not kung fu at all but cool looking acrobatic stuff. and has no application at all, but the "tag" translates into martial arts even though it is something else than an art useful in combat.

Kenpo translates ito Chuan Fa, not Karate...again all just tags when it comes down to fighting anyway...

So what the hell is Kung fu then?... What I grew up on is "Skill through hard work/effort", and if that is what Joe Ganji Teaches in his school, then I guess the tag fits.


Regards,

Waysun Johnny Tsai

[Johnny Tsai]

I notice on your website that your system is Shaolin Chuan Fa. I am sure there is a drastic difference in my Shaolin Chuan Fa vs yours. Master Tsai, any thoughts on this?[/QUOTE]


I don't know, I am sure there are differnces, but how drastic , hard to tell without meeting up. We do teach Longfist at ours schools if that is what you are asking.

I have traveled around the country aand seen 18 different versions of 18 Lohan, not drastic differences or changes but different versions none the less.

Also, throughout my travels, I find that most TCMA school teach some of the same standard forms and a lot of different stuff too. I enjoy it all.


Regards,

Waysun Johnny Tsai

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Johnny Tsai,
How are you? I got my Kung Fu start in your Father's school in Norridge/Harwqood Hts (Whatever town Irving and Harlem is).

I would like to make a simple point on the whole Kempo/Chuan Fa debate. Kempo/Kenpo is Japanese for "Fist Method". Chuan Fa is Chinese for "Fist Method". Just because two different languages have words for "Fist Method", does not mean you can interchange them. The reason for this is because we have a third language in play here, and that is American. Once you get to the American language, the use of Japanese termonoloy will naturally mean a Japanese art, and the use of Chinese termonology will mean a Chinese art.

Now, Karate may mean "China Hand" in *Japanese*, but it still referes to a *Japanese* art that has roots in a Chinese art. Karate however, is still a Japanese style, and has changed too much from it's Chinese roots to be still considered a Chinese art. So, if you say you are doing Karate, everyone knows you are refering to the Japanese styles of fighting, not a Chinese style.

Kempo/Kenpo is also similar as it is basically a Japanese style. To say Kem/npo is Chuan Fa is not linguistically correct in the US because that would designate it as a Chinese art, when it is infact a Japanese one. It's an erronious *Tag*, and misleading to the general public, especially the layman. It would be accurate to call it Kem/npo, because THAT is what it is. It would be more specifically accurate to call it by whatever sub style it is (example; Paker Kempo etc..)

Terms like Chuan Fa, Kung Fu, Wushu, Wu Gong refer to Chinese arts specifically.

Terms like Akido, Karate, Kem/npo, Judo, and Jujitsu refer to Japanese arts.

If someone was teaching a Japanese art, then to be accurate, and not confuse others, they should refer to it with the propper termonology. Otherwise it opens them up to criticizem.

[larryc]

Master Tsai - Thanks for agreeing to say hello to GM Abbate for me.

To all of you losing sleep over who calls their style what-- "Karate" "Kenpo" "Kempo" "Chuan Fa" "Kung Fu" "Gong Fu" are all generic words that all mean about the same thing, and none of which specify one style of martial arts. So the next time someone says they teach "Kempo" or "Kung Fu" etc-- you should ask them "What style?"

Based on my 33 years of training I offer this comment: If you are teaching a style with the same name but that appears different from someone else's school using the same style name, it could mean: 1) your instructor or one of the instructors who passed it down to him changed the style; 2) your instructor or one of the instructors who passed it down to him called it the wrong name; or 3) a combination of 1) or 2).

Every instructor is always going to emphasize or teach something slightly different. It seems you can only stay "pure" by not altering the forms/katas of your style.

Another approach - though not my peronal favorite- is like JKA Shotokan-- where they stress uniformity in every nuance of the class.

WuShu and Kodokan Judo preserve uniformity by having competitions where you are forced to use the exact same forms/ techniques as the other schools because of the competition.

Larry C

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I don't care for uniformity, just call it what it is, that is all.

[Johnny Tsai]

Johnny Tsai,
How are you? I got my Kung Fu start in your Father's school in Norridge/Harwqood Hts (Whatever town Irving and Harlem is).

I would like to make a simple point on the whole Kempo/Chuan Fa debate. Kempo/Kenpo is Japanese for "Fist Method". Chuan Fa is Chinese for "Fist Method". Just because two different languages have words for "Fist Method", does not mean you can interchange them. The reason for this is because we have a third language in play here, and that is American. Once you get to the American language, the use of Japanese termonoloy will naturally mean a Japanese art, and the use of Chinese termonology will mean a Chinese art.

Now, Karate may mean "China Hand" in *Japanese*, but it still referes to a *Japanese* art that has roots in a Chinese art. Karate however, is still a Japanese style, and has changed too much from it's Chinese roots to be still considered a Chinese art. So, if you say you are doing Karate, everyone knows you are refering to the Japanese styles of fighting, not a Chinese style.

Kempo/Kenpo is also similar as it is basically a Japanese style. To say Kem/npo is Chuan Fa is not linguistically correct in the US because that would designate it as a Chinese art, when it is infact a Japanese one. It's an erronious *Tag*, and misleading to the general public, especially the layman. It would be accurate to call it Kem/npo, because THAT is what it is. It would be more specifically accurate to call it by whatever sub style it is (example; Paker Kempo etc..)

Terms like Chuan Fa, Kung Fu, Wushu, Wu Gong refer to Chinese arts specifically.

Terms like Akido, Karate, Kem/npo, Judo, and Jujitsu refer to Japanese arts.

If someone was teaching a Japanese art, then to be accurate, and not confuse others, they should refer to it with the propper termonology. Otherwise it opens them up to criticizem.


Ok This is becoming a waste of my time., so here is my last reply.

First off, the Harlem and Irving School was basically my school for 6 years, and if you got your start there you were prob my student unles you started 3 months before the place closed , that's when I left. if you were my student , you can PM me.



2nd, just do a yahoo search on Chinese Kenpo or Shaolin Kenpo, that's what I did, It's all there /kung fu/karate, it just depends on how true to the Shaolin roots an individual school stays. All the research I found state that the term Kenpo borrowed from the Chinese word Chuan Fa.

3rd. you are missing the pointof my first reply, to say Joe Ganji is a dishonest Karate guy because he tags it Kung Fu is pure stupidity unless you visit his school and see what he is about and what he offers and allow him to describe his lineage personally, and I do believe he does have some TCMA background. Last I check my TCMA / Shaolin buddy Sifu Tim Wright was over there teaching TCMA forms, but no one off this website would know that unless going by the school and talking to Ganji or Sifu Tim.

4th. If someone wants to learn TCMA or a specific then thats what they should ask for when calling or visiting a school, "Kung Fu" is too generic and and trust me I have seen a lot of non-TCMA "Kung Fu".


Regards,


Waysun John Tsai

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Last I check my TCMA / Shaolin buddy Sifu Tim Wright was over there teaching TCMA forms, but no one off this website would know that unless going by the school and talking to Ganji or Sifu Tim.

Reply]
That makes the use of the term ok then.

When I started, your Father was in the Office, classes were taught by Gia Spencer, Sifu Chris, and Sifu Percy brown. There was another guy around too, a slightly heavier individual, but I don't remember his name.

The school closed aproximately 6-8 months after i started, and several of us went over by Master Abbate's school. I am guessing 1994-5 ish, maybe as early as 93 (My memory for time lines sux). This was just prior to my Divorce, and brewing family issues kept me from a consistant training schedule.

You gave me my intro lesson, or Maybe Kenny, I can't remeber which anymore. I do remember It was me, My brother and a girl, If I remember correctly. I signed several months later, My brother did not untill many years later, and was at the River Grove school for a short time.

Just due to the topsy turvy life I had back then, i never made any real rank tests, but go a peice of tape on my sash. I don't know how far my brother got.

[Johnny Tsai]

"When I started, your Father was in the Office, classes were taught by Gia Spencer, Sifu Chris, and Sifu Percy brown. There was another guy around too, a slightly heavier individual, but I don't remember his name.

The school closed aproximately 6-8 months after i started, and several of us went over by Master Abbate's school. I am guessing 1994-5 ish, maybe as early as 93 (My memory for time lines sux). This was just prior to my Divorce, and brewing family issues kept me from a consistant training schedule.

You gave me my intro lesson, or Maybe Kenny, I can't remeber which anymore. I do remember It was me, My brother and a girl, If I remember correctly. I signed several months later, My brother did not untill many years later, and was at the River Grove school for a short time."


1993-1994 sounds about right. That;'s when I left and my Dad brought in Sifu gia, but mainly Percy and Chris. Percy and Chris were "outsiders" brought in to help, whom neither of them had any experience operating a school so it closed in about 6 months.

[shadowlin]

that Americans have permanently - perhaps - associated the term karate, for right or wrong, with japanese arts. It's kind of frustrating in my style that they insist on retaining the term karate because of a number or pointless reasons. One could argue that if the whole world is wrong, changing to be like them doesn't mean everyone is now right. But, at the same time, you can't fight an ocean of consciousness. If Kung Fu is the terms people mean for TCMA because of Bruce Lee's movies, then we can't help that. I think it's every teachers' responsibility to teach the correction to his/her students so in a few generations at least a sizable percentage of folks know of the correct terminology, but we can't as a community, force teachers to do this. We can't say, "You must call it karate or chuanfa, and describe kung fu as excellence of form!"
So I don't know what the answer is. Do we embrace it and make it worse because it makes our lives easier through marketing to the groups looking for our services? Or do we hold true to the history and culture because we have an obligation to uphold the gifts given to us by old masters?
That is an individual choice. I think the best answer is that we should use what we need and be sure to teach the truth. Anyone have a better idea?
Well, I do, but our community is not ready yet. We simply are too young a community.

[mjw]

I'm not going on here to completely bash Joe Gangi I trained with him over 10 years ago and actually recieved a black belt from him however I later moved on to other schools which I saw as more legit when it comes to "kung-fu".

He was a good instructor and did teach me a lot of things however to this day I believe that he uses kung-fu for marketing purposes though he does or did incorperate quite a few of the kung-fu hand movements in his regemine such as a few mantis, tiger, snake etc.

We did the (sorry about spelling if it's wrong) Pinyon series of forms which are traditional Karate forms along with a few other very karate type forms. There was a snake and tiger form he had however it pretty much coppied te pattern of one of the karate forms with snake and tiger hand movements.

Calls himself shihan and the instructors senseis which is a Japaneese Karate term if i'm not mistaken.