Wing Chun - development of a martial art [Archive]

judge88

02-19-2007, 11:34 PM

Hi Fellow Martial Artists,

This is my first post ...

Ive been spending alot of time of late thinking about WC and for what its worth, here are some of my thoughts about this great martial art.

WC is somewhat different to the other Southern Chinese martial arts. The focus on these styles are on what I call "off hand" fighting - eg Hung Ga, CLF, Bak Mei etc.
By focussing on off hand fighting, arm sensitivity becomes unimportant - these styles therefore can be viewed as being 'external'.

WC is quite different - it has concepts that can be found in Internal Styles such as Tai Chi - deflection, redirection etc, and alot of time is spent training arm sensitivity. However, WC has also alot of external martial art elements - chain punching for example.

That being the case, WC can be viewed as a hybrid style - ie an Internal and External Martial art. WC is essentially a product of an attempt by the Southern Chinese Martial Arts movement to create an internal martial art. Unfortunately if once compares WC to Tai Chi - it doesnt quite get there yet....

Not being internal / external is a dangerous place to be. You don't quite have the hard "heavy handed" power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts.

Today many WC practitioners naturally tend to focus on the external elements of the art to generate power. This is a product of:

a. Western mindset of power.
b. Not understanding how to use chi to generate power.

So to a large extent WC's soft/internal elements have not continued to develop/ plays a secondary role to its external elements. It is because of this, I think WC has reverted to becoming more of an external martial art rather than continuing its development as an internal style.

I personally believe if WC is to mature and develop as an even greater martial art style, it should focus on its soft/internal elements not its external.

Paul T England

02-20-2007, 07:42 AM

You must be very knowledgeable with regards to CLF and Bak Mei?

IMHO the shapes do look very different but these arts are excellent martial arts. Seperating styles into external and internal is a very basic way of describing them and most arts should be internal at a high level.

The future of wing chun is making it work. Wing chun is a system wtih great potential in the right hands. The only reason it is so popular is because of its reputation as a fighting art and the connection to Bruce Lee.

Paul

judge88

02-20-2007, 02:04 PM

Thanks for posting your comments Paul.

I have studied both CLF and Bak Mei.

I did not mean to classify a style as either external or internal. I merely meant to highlight the emphasis/focus of these styles. I also agree that the focus of martial arts should be internal at a high level. Unfortunately I think too much time is spent on the external elements. Perhaps there is also a perception that the internal elements are not as practical in combat.

I think its a given that all martial arts should work in combat. Every style has a practitioner/master that has proven this.

Is it not ironic that a man that has made WC so popular no longer described himself as a WC practitioner? I think Bruce Lee's view towards martial arts is not unique - it has always been the case that at the highest level, there is no (or only one) style - it becomes one's own style. Styles and their forms are merely guidelines to help a student reach that level. Unfortunately many become "loyal" to a style and fail to appreciate this ...

Wu Wei Wu

02-20-2007, 03:07 PM

i do not find classifications of methods as external or internal helpful. the efficacy of Wing Chun has little to do with the subjective experience of the practitioner.

instead, we interpret whether the method has proved successful by the reaction of the opponent.

have we elicited a response in our opponent which directly correlates to a manifestation of immense pain?

additionally, our action should be analysed in accordance with the following.

Was it:
1)simple;
2) direct; and
3) efficient?

anerlich

02-20-2007, 03:21 PM

I'm not sure Bruce Lee is a particularly good poster boy for your arguments.

From what it sounds like your definition of the internal/external continuum might be (and there are so many), Bruce would have been the external boxer par excellence. I think he might have called much of the "internal" stuff a waste of time and denigrated its promoters as charlatans.

If sensitivity cultivation is the hallmark of an internal MA, then arguably BJJ is as internal as WC, probably more so. This is not necessarily a refutation of your position, BTW.

Knifefighter

02-20-2007, 04:02 PM

You don't quite have the hard "heavy handed" power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts..

All power is the result of the nervous system, the muscles, the tendons and the bones in a chain of movement.

You can't power have without each of these. Take any one of these things out of the chain and you lose all power.

Chi, neuromusclular transmission, or whatever you want to label it, is worthless without the muscles, tendons and bones as part of the interdependent chain.

Knifefighter

02-20-2007, 04:03 PM

I think he might have called much of the "internal" stuff a waste of time and denigrated its promoters as charlatans..

In most cases he would be right.

Mr Punch

02-20-2007, 04:41 PM

Hi Fellow Martial Artists, Welcome to the board. Knifefighter's graced you with his presence on your thread, so this is gonna be a baptism of fire! :D

By focussing on off hand fighting, arm sensitivity becomes unimportant - these styles therefore can be viewed as being 'external'.Naturally all this is IMO.

Arm sensitivity is only important if you can dictate the range efficiently. Too much time is spent developing arm sensitivity in wing chun and not enough spent sparring/drills which enables you to get used to reading different ranges.

And at very close range it shares more with a grappling style, or boxing clinch-work, than the so-called internal arts.

WC is quite different - it has concepts that can be found in Internal Styles such as Tai Chi - deflection, redirection etc,These distinctions are also found in a lot of high level karate: the epitome of a so-called external art. Goju-ryu even has a sticking hands drill.

However, WC has also alot of external martial art elements - chain punching for example. I consider chain punching to be a drill. It's actual application is limited to destroying the 'guard' of people backing off and covering their heads: like small children and grandmothers! :D

WC is essentially a product of an attempt by the Southern Chinese Martial Arts movement to create an internal martial art. There is no such movement! Are you kidding! We all know the backbiting that goes on within wing chun, do you really think there is any kind of unified movement between styles?!

Unfortunately if once compares WC to Tai Chi - it doesnt quite get there yet....Applesa nd aoranges. Upon what basis are you comparing?

No time now, but I'll be back for the rest of your post! ;)

Mr Punch

02-20-2007, 08:51 PM

Not being internal / external is a dangerous place to be. You don't quite have the hard "heavy handed" power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts.These external and internal definitions are just two ways of classifying different ways of moving to the same effect. It's not a dangerous place to be at all. By different people's definitions the same art may be internal, external, or 'don't care'!

I know many 'internal' artists who can hit heavy handed like a truck, and I've yet to see any direct evidence that this is anything more than body mechanics, certainly no evidence of chi.

Today many WC practitioners naturally tend to focus on the external elements of the art to generate power. This is a product of:

a. Western mindset of power. Bull. Why? Your dualism is a product of 'western mindsets' if ever there was one.

b. Not understanding how to use chi to generate power. Also bull. The vast majority of wing chun lines don't even consider 'chi'. Why should we consider it if we can hit hard? I'd prefer to concentrate on the wall bag, and punch bags etc to develop a strong punch.

So to a large extent WC's soft/internal elements have not continued to develop/ plays a secondary role to its external elements. It is because of this, I think WC has reverted to becoming more of an external martial art rather than continuing its development as an internal style. Again, 'reverting' suggests that that's where it started. Those definitions weren't even in common currency when WC was started!

I personally believe if WC is to mature and develop as an even greater martial art style, it should focus on its soft/internal elements not its external.Good for you. It's an interesting art, and I hope you can make it work for you when you need it.

byond1

02-21-2007, 12:05 AM

I dont think being in between Internal and external is not an Dnagerous place to be. That is the charm of WCK. We are Taoism personified. We are the middle path. We also dont have the weakness that a pure external style has nor the weakness of an internal style. WCK is a hybred approach.

I agree completly that in most H.K WCK branchs, and many other branchs, the internal quality has been almost completly lost. And i agree completly that its gone down the sad road of External. BUt -There is hope!!!

First let me define , When i Say Wing Chun Kuen, i refer to , Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung, Cheung Bo, Wong Jing, Mai Gai wong, Leung Jan Kulo Village Fung Family, Cho Gar Yik kam , Yiu Kay/Yiu Choi, Leung Jan Foshan system from CHan Wah Shun and Lo Kwai, and Pan Nam branchs. Cant speak for any other group. But you have to sample these various branchs. And you will see in most of them more internal qualities across them all.

Yong Chun County White crane was fused with a softer - Internal Snake Boxing art. So the snake aspect is Internal. Yong Chun County white crane has several versions. The Harder version is probably the older approach, and the softer approach is similar to WCKs approach. So we probably came from the Harder -older Yong Chun County and than was mixed with the internal style.

Now lets make something clear. What wing chun style are you using as a referance point??? As i see alot of Kung Fu guys from other arts using H.K WCK as the referance point. H.K WCK is modernized. It was streamlined by Yip Man, when he taught hte public. And at that point, that was the first time , WCK was openly taught. You cant say what WCK is like unless you look at all the differant older branchs and get a big context picture. Your statements might be valid in regards to Newer WCK systems Post 1950-.

But Older WCK takes White crane Inch Power, and turbo charges it with the internal style. We also have very defined Yik Gang training, which isnt found in H.K WCK. We also use Body Shape that is differant to H.K. We have Sow hung for the Chest, CHum the shoulders, Elbows closed in twords center, Rectum contracted, knees Chum ect. We dont even shift the same way as H.K.

Anyone interested in seeing one of the parents of Wing Chun check out Lee Kang Sifu from H.K you wont believe your eyes, BUT you have to compare it to an older WCK method for it to make sence.

brian

Hendrik

02-21-2007, 12:23 AM

IMHO,

The training of Advance CMA is either go external or internal. It could not be both external and internal.

the most basic elements are

1, External art is a programing art that the more programs/drills/ applicatons one accumulate the more one is complete.
and while moving the body, one is moving the part of the body directly.

2, Internal art is an Awareness art that one train only to develop Awareness in all part of the body and let it flow as needed.
and while moving the body, one is leading the qi, and let the qi transport the body.
This has to be done this way because any tensing will blocking Awareness.

IMHO, WCK has to go 2 to get to very advance level. go 1 will " look speed up" the learning however, it ultimately will not get to the core--- AWAREness to a high development state. an effortless WCK or FLOW WCK depend greatly on Awareness and a differnet type of power generation is needed.

peace

anerlich

02-21-2007, 03:16 PM

It could not be both external and internal.

It can be and is. in the engineer-speak you commandeer for your sometimes questionable ends, it is OR, not XOR.

The I Ching, whose principles you misappropriated to "bolster" another argument on another thread, will tell you the same thing.

Hendrik

02-21-2007, 05:55 PM

It can be and is. in the engineer-speak you commandeer for your sometimes questionable ends, it is OR, not XOR. ----

if we are speak about Traditional Chinese Martial art, Nope, it cant be. The major reason is once one train in one way the body build up a type of habitual conditioning.

The I Ching, whose principles you misappropriated to "bolster" another argument on another thread, will tell you the same thing. ------

There is nothing to do with I Ching from book reading or accumulated book reading knowledge. It is about the facts of what happen in Chinese Martial art Conditioning.

You might think I am --- misappropriated to "bolster" ..--- however the Truth might be I am speak the true from experience not from logical speculation and some just cant understand because one has not yet in that paradigm or state.

Again , I could be wrong, however, why mislead others when in fact, it cannot be done is reality disregard of how sound one's logical speculation is.

The Bottom line is once the body can only be condition in one way --- Either Hard Bow or Soft Bow. Eventhought the Soft Bow can emulate hard, it is not from Hard Bow training.

As for the Hard Bow, it is not able emulate Soft Bow effect.

No one needs to believe me, however, think about it, why is for the past 60 years or so Inch Short Power become extinct? could the direction of sound great mixing of hard and soft itself got a big problem ?

Just some thought. it is not about argument, but it is about not misleading others to go on a road which will not get one there.

anerlich

02-21-2007, 07:24 PM

The major reason is once one train in one way the body build up a type of habitual conditioning.

So, don't train in just one way. Duh!

the Truth might be I am speak the true from experience not from logical speculation and some just cant understand because one has not yet in that paradigm or state.

That could be the truth, then again it might not. I'm betting on option B.

No one needs to believe me, however, think about it, why is for the past 60 years or so Inch Short Power become extinct?

I can tell you, "true from experience", that I know a number of practitioners for whom "Inch Short Power" is most definitely not extinct. I'm not actually all that hopeless at it myself.

Maybe *you* need to get some more of that experience and awareness about what is going on in the world you keep telling everyone they need to get?

but it is about not misleading others to go on a road which will not get one there.

And with that in mind, I would counsel others not to accept your supposed "insights" uncritically.

If anyone deserves the IgNobel Award for describing a point to get to without being able to explain how to get there, it's you.

Hendrik

02-21-2007, 07:39 PM

I can tell you, "true from experience", that I know a number of practitioners for whom "Inch Short Power" is most definitely not extinct. I'm not actually all that hopeless at it myself.

.

Then, get into the subject, share with us

how are all these people who you experience with train? Soft or hard or as you suggested mix? and also please define what is soft or hard according to you.

what is the result and what is the characteristics of thier Inch Short power?
Also, share with us the process to get there.

guy b.

02-22-2007, 12:00 PM

Completely wrong about Bak mei and hung gar in your very first post.

Hendrik

02-22-2007, 12:11 PM

IMHO,

instead of commenting on this is right or wrong.

why dont we present the training process to get where is intended instead?

That way we can discuss about techinical facts from different point of view.

byond1

02-22-2007, 06:51 PM

Hi,

I dont agree fully with "Either External or Internal" - exclusivly. That would be like saying - Yin and Yang = 2 instead of - Yin and Yang = 1.

Wing chun is not an internal style. Its not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang. WCK could be practised like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang or It could be practised like Weng Chun County White Crane. or it can be practised like it should, in the middle.
Focusing on 1 and not both, would be counter intuitive to Why WCK was created. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Weng chun County white crane, as we allready have Weng Chun County White crane. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Emie 12 Jong as we allready have Emie 12 jong.

WCK is a Hybred style with Fused components from 2 core systems, with a 3rd system of thought for the core of application, as well as possibly parts from 2 or 3 other systems. Hence WCK is meant to fuse the 2 core differant methods, And be "Middle Path" - Not walking in either extreme of training.

Programing the muscles is a valid part of the Sup Yee San SIk training in YKS and Kulo WCK. During this programing Yik Gang is trained. Once a framework has been ingrained, you gradualy shift the training twords Yee and Chi. This follows the framework that White Crane trains. From external to internal. Both being part of the big picture and needed for the proper development, IMO

The temple of the body must be strengthened. Tendons need to be changed. Skeletal system must learn to align and muslces must allow to settle and relax. This gives a Framework for the Chi To be built up in, that can handle the higher voltage and energy.

Hendrik

02-22-2007, 11:02 PM

Just some thoughts for technical discussion:

Please do not read this post if you are not interested in technical and only technical discussion. For IMHO, this post might be political incorrect because it is about digging up what is the truth.

I dont agree fully with "Either External or Internal" - exclusivly. That would be like saying - Yin and Yang = 2 instead of - Yin and Yang = 1. -----

You dont have to agree with me.

if we are talking Traditional Chinese Martial art, then,

we first has to know what is an external art and what is an internal art. we need to actually trained with experience teacher before we can make any type of comment which reflex the reality. Otherwise, it is a mind spining seculation not what reality is about.

Your example of Yin and Yang IMHO, is off the mark totally, IMHO, because one cannnot be awake and sleeping in the same time disregard how one can reason logically or thinking reasonablely.

Most of us, eventhought see lots of Taiji or whatever so called internal art on TV or DVD...ect the truth is how many including those in China has activated the 8 special medirians and doing the set with that type of standard?

If not, then one doesnt know what is internal training. That clear. However, how many of us willing to accept this facts? NOPE, mimic posture is not by default internal art at all.

Thus, I have heard.
So, that is another layer of depth one needs to enter to know internal. Until the special 8 medirians is activate, one just could imagine what is that about.

so, if we are using this type of standard, look at the WCner of the past 60 years. HOw many have this type of understanding?

Wing chun is not an internal style. -------

Again, if one is talking about Traditional Chinese Martial art, then one needs to first define what is an internal art of TRaditional Chinese Martial art, what is the process of the training, otherwise, there is no discussion can be proceed.

Its not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang.-------

It is not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang but it has the components of Emie 12 Zhuang, that is a fact by evidents which we know today.

WCK could be practised like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang or It could be practised like Weng Chun County White Crane. or it can be practised like it should, in the middle. -----

So, how is WCK practice like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang is like? what kind of result will it yield?

So, HOw is WCK practive like Weng Chun County White Crane is like? what kind of result will it yield?

So, what is middle? what kind of result will it yield?

Until these are all clear, there is no meaning for the speculation because it really has no meaning in the TRaditional Chinese Martial art experience sense, May be in arguement shake make sense. But in training and the process of training what is that means?

Focusing on 1 and not both, would be counter intuitive to Why WCK was created.----

This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.

We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Weng chun County white crane, as we allready have Weng Chun County White crane. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Emie 12 Jong as we allready have Emie 12 jong. ------

True,

However, the second one practice whatever style which is based on Emei 12 Jong in a hard/external way. there no longer has the benifit of the Emei 12 jong. Because Emei 12 Jong based art is internal and solid internal and only can yield result with Internal training. Go Emei way has to go internal. meaning is one practice the move in the external or hard way. The SNAKE DIE. snake has to go soft and internal if it is taking advantage/benifit from the Emei 12 zhuang's snake slide pupal moves.

WCK is a Hybred style with Fused components from 2 core systems, with a 3rd system of thought for the core of application, as well as possibly parts from 2 or 3 other systems. Hence WCK is meant to fuse the 2 core differant methods, And be "Middle Path" - Not walking in either extreme of training. -------

what is a middle path in term of Mind/Body/Qi? until one could define that we dont know what is it but just word without meaning.

IMHHHHO,

it is not a middle path. it is Snake powered Crane potential.
Snake powered because the process of training capable to cultivate a snake like power.
Crane potential because the application potential is core on center line, five elements concept of white crane of Fujian.

So, it is an internal cultivation art using the center potential. Look at the SLT/SNT is that is the set presenting and expressing? the issue today is that one still can identify the Crane potential however the snake powered has fade away much more servely and become no clear.

Programing the muscles is a valid part of the Sup Yee San SIk training in YKS and Kulo WCK. -------

That is fine, and WCK has been going Throught multi Localization Evolution due to multi-lineage and 150 years atleast. So, some might like it to be Kyokushin style and some will like it to be BJJ style. Nothing wrong with it. everyone is right. however, how to turn on the SLT/SNT engine? that become a question.

During this programing Yik Gang is trained.-----

Could Yi Gang turn on the SLT/SNT Engine? NOPE, If Yi Gang training could turn it on then one doesnt need supplement such as the kidney Qi return to its origine.. IMHO.

Yi Gang is not Snake slide pulpa move, not to mention Yi Gang has many version. So which version of Yi Gang? That needs to be solved.

Once a framework has been ingrained, you gradualy shift the training twords Yee and Chi. ------

How to cultivate Yee and Chi? the process, without that again, it is mind speculation which has no meaning but lots of words.

This follows the framework that White Crane trains. From external to internal. Both being part of the big picture and needed for the proper development, IMO------

So, what is the training of White Crane? what is the different between the eating crane, the older post 1800 crane, the humming crane....etc. Which is internal which is external? even Crane, Yes, Crane has evolved into Hard or soft system after 1800.

So, which is which?

The temple of the body must be strengthened. Tendons need to be changed. Skeletal system must learn to align and muslces must allow to settle and relax. This gives a Framework for the Chi To be built up in, that can handle the higher voltage and energy.-------

Great idea but how?

The most screw up today IMHHHHHO is that we are comparing posture not the Process of training. and the key about INternal and external is in the Process of training not in the posture.

and

we have lost the training Process, but evolve with different type of application from Karate Side Kick adding into CK in the 60's to BJJ application added in the 90's. But we lost the training process or the body/mind/breathing conditioning core part of the art since early 1900. IMHO

Localized EVolution is a must and right. However, do we still do WCK? that is a quesition we could search into.

IMHO, lets face it in the past 60 years, WCK is importing lots of great application and evolve great in the applications of the art. However, do we still have the process for training that we could trace to answer the question either it is external or internal? That we all know and have to admit, today, WCK is an external art in general.

t_niehoff

02-23-2007, 07:35 AM

An alternative view offered as a balance . . . .

A training method is only as good as the results it produces. If we are training in martial arts (WCK) to develop our fighting skills (to significantly increase our fighting ability), the only way to determine those results is by genuinely fighting (realistic sparring), at full intensity/power or close to it. If we are training for some other sort of results, then IMO we aren't doing *martial* arts -- we're using a martial art as a vehicle for something else or playing some other game. And then it loses its martial value.

When we fight/spar realistically and against decent competition -- someone that can really push us to our limit -- we will need to move at 100%, full-out, with all the power we can muster, with all the speed we can muster, etc. This requirement will place limitations on the things we can do as our bodies can only move in certain ways, do certain things, etc. at full-intensity. How our bodies move, react, behave, etc. at 100% is very different than how it moves, reacts, behaves, at lower intensities. You can train to do all kinds of things at lower intensity, and find that they fail when you reach a certain level of intensity.

Theories about how we should train, the process of training, etc. are just that -- theories. It is easy to say "if you train this way or that way, you will develop X or Y". I'm sure people believe these things. Typically, because they want to believe those things. Sifu has told them or it fits their philosophy of life or whatever. And many people are convinced because they see demonstratations of these abilities *at lower intensities* (like in chi sao). However, being able to do something at lower intensity is no indication that you -- or anyone -- can do them at fighting level intensity. The only way to know if your body can do these things at fighting intensity (100%) is by trying to do them while actually fighting.

One of the real problems in TCMAs is that most of the "training" is at lower levels of intensity (non-realistic training). This gives people a false sense of reality -- because they base conclusions about fighting from the feedback they are getting from their nonrealisitic practice. It is also the problem with begining from a concept or idea. They can make that idea or concept work at lower level intensity so they conclude it will work at higher level intensities. In my view, and after much experience, I've found that you can't start at that end -- the low intensity end -- but must start with the fight and work from there.

I'm always interested in better, more effective ways of training or using my WCK. In my many years of practicing WCK, I've visited many WCK instructors, "masters", and "grandmasters." I've also seen and felt the so-called top-notch "internal" guys like CXW. What I've very rarely seen, however, are any of these people actually willing to fight/spar to show that their theories hold water. And when I did see these people "pushed" to a realistic level of fighting intensity, they began moving differently than how they said and trained to move -- and so all their training went out the window (because they had trained to move one way and were now being force to move in another way).

When anyone fights or spars realistically, it will "look" like NHB/MMA regardless of the style that person practices. That is the reality. If you are concerned with developing better fighting skills - through WCK or whatever - this is what you need to prepare for.

Hendrik

02-23-2007, 08:41 AM

t_niehoff

02-23-2007, 01:08 PM

That is a very western mind set.

why?

1,
The art we translate as Martial art in the west is called Wu Su (madarin).
Wu is stop/disolve/ended fighting. Su is technics.

So, Wu su means the techonolgy of disolve/ended fighting.
thus, the chinese mind set or the true meaning of the "art" was not translate properly to the west. and thus, due to this partial translation, we mistaken what the "original" meaning of the it is about.

If we miss the meaning and start speculation based on the un awareness of our own mind set. That become a personal intepretation which is ok for oneself. But it is not what it is anymore.

Thus, the term martial art is not a good way to communicate Wu Su.

You are correct in your literal translation of "wu su", but it still means fighting. ;) We practice wing chun kuen (faat) -- kuen faat means "fist method". And that doesn't mean how to roll our hand into a fist.

2,
in additional, there is a saying Training the Kuen (application/San Sau/) and not training the Kung (conditioning via the special process of the style or lineage) until one is aging (means when one gets old) it is an EMPTY training (Empty means low low effectiveness training)

This is an appeal to authority - the kuits say so, so it must be correct. The kuits can be wrong. This is why we look to results. Moreover, even if the kuit isn't wrong, we can misinterpret them. And in my view, that's what you are doing. The kuit can only be understood from one's actual level of skill, i.e., people of different skill levels will interpret them differently. And by skill, I mean fighting skill. This is because our experience fighting with WCK, or lack of it, informs our interpretations of the kuit. How do we know if our view of the kuit is valid? By results. It all comes down to results.

So, we know by evidents. In the past the Kuen and Kung both needs to be train otherwise one's technology is not complete.
and due to the important of the KUng or Process of the training, it is a fact that while teaching, often, Kung was purposely not taught unless one is the son or the close indoor student. One could teach everyone the Kuen but not the Kung. That is the old chinese mind set which is the main cause of losing a technology.

You start by saying that we know from evidence but then present no evidence! You present more theory, stories, etc. Calling these things evidence doesn't make it so. The only evidence we need to be concerned with is results -- in terms of fighting skill (using WCK) development.

We can look at various training methods A, B, and C, and compare the results of those training methods -- do they produce significant gains in fighting ability? Arguing that they will, arguing that stories from the past say they will, etc. doesn't make it true. If training method A, your internal training method, produces results then let someone publically produce those results -- let us see them in action, fighting decently skilled people. After all, that's the objective of the training. If we rely on evidence, we can find no examples of anyone who uses that method of training that has developed significant fighting skills. No one. If anyone believes it works, let them go down to the local MMA gyms with their camcorder and show us. It's that simple.

Just some thoughts.

Yes, and that's the problem -- that's all they are: thoughts. Theory. Belief. And all the evidence in the real world points a different way.

Hendrik

02-23-2007, 02:51 PM

You are correct in your literal translation of "wu su", but it still means fighting. ;) We practice wing chun kuen (faat) -- kuen faat means "fist method". And that doesn't mean how to roll our hand into a fist. ---------

Sure, you are right if one look at the bit and piece and thinking that is the whole picture.

As I explain above, the biggest picture is Dao, then the Wu Shu or the technology, then under Wu shu there is the Kuen and and Kung.

NOw, if one just focus on the Kuen and thinking that is all. Is one still right? sure. however, that is not what the Traditional Chinese way but one's intepretation based on one's partial understanding.

This is an appeal to authority - the kuits say so, so it must be correct. The kuits can be wrong. This is why we look to results. Moreover, even if the kuit isn't wrong, we can misinterpret them. And in my view, that's what you are doing. The kuit can only be understood from one's actual level of skill, i.e., people of different skill levels will interpret them differently. ------

first, who talk about Kuit here? I was explaining about how the traditional ancient Chinese training consist of.

Again, that is your personal intepretation. Kuit is just a writting on the Key in Kung and Kuen.

It is an outline of the process of the training and/or application.

Kuit doesnt comes single. Kuit is similar to a network where each elements interact each other.

Could any kuit be wrong or distorted after decades of transmiting . Sure, however, always one could trace and verify with other group of kuit or inter check to see whether it makes sense or not.

and the Bottom line is could one "turn on " the engine or activate the application. That is what the kuit about.

your post show you have no experience knowledge on the subject.
Now, if you would like to discuss about Kuit in a technical sense I welcome your discussion.

However, if you start using the Dis-approval mind game...etc. Sorry, I dont have time for those stuffs. Not to mention, what result? if you dont even have any idea of what you are doing.

And by skill, I mean fighting skill. This is because our experience fighting with WCK, or lack of it, informs our interpretations of the kuit. How do we know if our view of the kuit is valid? By results. It all comes down to results. ------

Your sifu Robert Chu just post the following post. why dont you go there and question is his view valid? and also ask him what results it comes down speaking about thinking but not fighting fighting as you use as a ruler to judge others?

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=685

again, I would like to remind you It is NOT OUR experience fighting with WCK. It is your Personal speculation.
I hope you get that clear in your mind. hahaha

You start by saying that we know from evidence but then present no evidence! You present more theory, stories, etc. Calling these things evidence doesn't make it so. The only evidence we need to be concerned with is results -- in terms of fighting skill (using WCK) development. -------

again, i sense your anti me, hahaha...

from the discussion above and in other forum, you have show you know very tiny bit on ancient TRaditional Chinese Martial art.

That is a solid evident infront your eyes, do you see it?

until you know what you are talking about, I wont spend more time with you.

Reading your interested post, I actually ask you to think hard what is your real intention for posting?

In my view, your different posts are about wanting attention and wanting control with strong self-rigteousness. Atleast thinking you are right and what you know is the truth.

And perhaps also some racism of not respecting and accepting what is the Traditional Ancient Chinese way of living or teachiing.

Ultimatewingchun

02-23-2007, 02:53 PM

"WC is quite different - it has concepts that can be found in Internal Styles such as Tai Chi - deflection, redirection etc, and alot of time is spent training arm sensitivity. However, WC has also alot of external martial art elements - chain punching for example.

That being the case, WC can be viewed as a hybrid style - ie an Internal and External Martial art. WC is essentially a product of an attempt by the Southern Chinese Martial Arts movement to create an internal martial art." (judge)

...........

"I did not mean to classify a style as either external or internal. I merely meant to highlight the emphasis/focus of these styles. I also agree that the focus of martial arts should be internal at a high level. Unfortunately I think too much time is spent on the external elements. Perhaps there is also a perception that the internal elements are not as practical in combat.

I think its a given that all martial arts should work in combat. Every style has a practitioner/master that has proven this. " (judge)

.................

"All power is the result of the nervous system, the muscles, the tendons and the bones in a chain of movement.

You can't power have without each of these. Take any one of these things out of the chain and you lose all power.

Chi, neuromusclular transmission, or whatever you want to label it, is worthless without the muscles, tendons and bones as part of the interdependent chain." (Knife/Dale)

***WHILE I AGREE...with Dale's remarks about how it must all fit together...I think that the subject judge raises is an important, albeit almost completely lost aspect of wing chun - and of virtually all martial arts...especially oriental ones.

The "internal" aspect of wing chun that judge alludes to regarding the touch/sensitivity tools of wing chun are just the tip of the iceberg - because the "internal" aspects of wing chun (and other arts) also have to do with proper breathing, relaxing the body (ie.-muscles), focusing the mind via concentration, slowing down the heart rate (in the face of danger), staying calm, and not allowing oneself to be carried away by anger or fear.

And at it's higher levels it requires SLOWING DOWN....everything...including one's desire to compete and prevail. (The cultivation of patience - and the ability and the willingness to meditate frequently).

It is, in fact, the beginning of what could become something of a spiritual path - for those who are interested in following it.

And very few people are.

But the path is there nonetheless.

t_niehoff

02-23-2007, 03:35 PM

Hendrik, Robert's post that you cited has nothing to do with marital art or how to train martial arts -- he is talking about something entirely different (traditional chinese medicine).

I post because you post; to offer an alternative view. You *believe* (or want to believe) that I don't "understand" TCMAs because I do not agree with you. But results do not need agreement or argument or stories or anything else -- they speak for themselves. Show me the fighter that can make your methods work against some decently skilled fighters. You can't do that because no one can. So you keep arguing, discussing, intellectualizing, evading, etc. -- everything except showing someone that has developed good fighting skills using your training methods. Yet while you can't find anyone who has made these methods work, you keep repeating how they are key, etc.! If they worked, shouldn't someone, somewhere be able to step up and show it?

It is not racism (and I'll ignore the insult) that leads me to doubt the effectiveness of the TCMA model of training -- it is the utter lack of results that model produces that leads me to that conclusion. What I don't do is accept it as wonderful because it is chinese -- anymore than I would accept it as wonderful if it was german (my heritage) or anything else. It was the best they had in its day. But its day ended over 100 years ago! The ancient chinese were essentially completely wrong about how the human body works, how nature works, etc. Drawing on those wrong theories as a basis for training to fight is a recipe for disaster. If you wanted to try to train according to the humour theory of medicine (from western culture of 150 years ago), I'd be saying the same things. That stuff was nonsense then, and it is nonsense now.

Now you can talk about how I don't know what I'm doing, how you do know, etc. but all of that is meaningless dribble -- results speak for themselves. Show me the fighter that can make your methods work against some decently skilled fighters.

Hendrik

02-23-2007, 03:38 PM

Hendrik, Robert's post that you cited has nothing to do with marital art or how to train martial arts -- he is talking about something entirely different (traditional chinese medicine).

/B].

Well, read the title again. :D

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=685

you see, until we are not double standard we cant see clear. that applied to both me and you.

Hendrik

02-23-2007, 04:14 PM

And when we talk about either the the new or the ancient, I have no preference and respect all.

my point is simple. IMHO

1, we need to have what we are training. be it Kung or Kuen well define.

2, we need to look at the process of training and have a measureable ability.

localized evolution is nature and respectable.

t_niehoff

02-23-2007, 07:23 PM

Hendrik, show us the fighter that can make your methods work against some decently skilled fighters. If you can't do that, your theories are empty.

Hendrik

02-23-2007, 08:02 PM

Hendrik, show us the fighter that can make your methods work against some decently skilled fighters. If you can't do that, your theories are empty.

Do you know what is the topic of this threat?

, hahaha,

I dont need your approval for how good or how bad I am.
The ancestors of WCK also dont need your approval.

and The ancestors' Kung could be measured by today's biofeedback machine from heart beat and heart beat rythm to EEG which is a proven scientific method. which I have post in this forum. so, No need for your approval.

Not to mention, you are off the mark but lots of ego trying to prove this and that which is off topic.

The following is your sifu's teaching, enjoy. There certainly lots you need to learn about WCK from you sifu.

"Wing Chun is a great martial art that can lead you from the past to being here in the now. But Wing Chun is diseased - polluted by the ego or false self. That has been my main topic in articles and columns over the years. Now I wish to help those who want to see Here and Now...

The "Siu Nim" in Siu Nim Tao - means that - less false thoughts. If you know you cannot believe your mind, false self or ego, take more stock in your true self. Throw off the shades of delusion and see what you are, who you are. Hui Neng said, "Confused, the self-nature is a living being: enlightened, it is a Buddha.”

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=685

t_niehoff

02-24-2007, 08:11 AM

Hendrik, you love to cite everything but results. I don't accept anything Robert or some "ancestor" says as true simply because they said it -- our motto is "let application be your sifu." I accept what Robert says *only* after it has proved to my satisfaction that it is true. FWIW, he wouldn't want it any other way (and nor would I). There is no authority in WCK. And any individual's skill and knowledge is reflected by their fighting ability (if they can't do it in fighting, they don't have the skill or the knowledge -- all they have is theory). As Hawkins Cheung says, "Theory is great but can you do it?" Anyone and everyone can have a theory.

The topic of this thread is "development of a martial art" -- I am on topic. And I'm saying that your theories of the development of a martial art are nonsense. They are nonsense because they are based on a deeply flawed, inaccurate, incomplete, and wrong view of reality, the traditional chinese cosmology. Garbage in, garbage out. And the fact is that you can't point to one person (that we can see for ourselves actually fight) who has used these theories to develop any significant fighting skill.

leejunfan

02-24-2007, 08:27 AM

you guys are like a merry go round.... going round and round...... and getting NO WHERE!

t_niehoff

02-24-2007, 08:45 AM

you guys are like a merry go round.... going round and round...... and getting NO WHERE!

Dude, don't I know it. :)

I know that I'm not going to convince Hendrik -- he's a "true believer". This stuff is a religion for him: he accepts it on faith. There are many like him in the TCMAs, which tends to attract that crowd. I only respond so that he, and others, are aware that there are people with differing views. Just like I do with the HFY crowd and their "history". And that's because I think that if something is said often enough, especially if it goes unchallenged, it sometimes begins to become "accepted" as mainstream.

Sorry if it gets tiresome.

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 12:17 PM

Hendrik, you love to cite everything but results. I don't accept anything Robert or some "ancestor" says as true simply because they said it -- our motto is "let application be your sifu.".....---T

VEry important, please clear with your sifu Robert Chu before you brought up "our motto is "let application be your sifu."

As a TCM doctor and TCM, sifu Robert Chu knows the truth of any Chinese art be it Chinese medicine or Chinese Kung Fu had to consist of two parts, the Application and the "body" or Tee and Yoong. making a qout as above is just IMHHHO mis-inteprete the art of Sifu Robert Chu with your view that is not Robert's view.

In my humble opinion, if you are not sure about your sifu's teaching, ask, listern, and comprehend before qouting it.

Terence, you love to jump gun on whatever you think instead of what I present. :D

and stop trying to use RESULT to manupulate to control other or try to make others need your approval.

IN the past,
I have post to you in this forum.

This is the second time.

AT ANY TIME, ANY PLACE

Bring you best MMA fighter, Bring a group of Scientis with Biofeedback Machine. Let's do a study. I coach the MMA fighter with the Process I know. and let the real Scientis via Biofeedback data see will these type of training improve and how much it will improve the ability of your MMA figther. ofcorse you need to sign a NDA by law because it is about technology process and it is not free.

See, result as in ENGINEERING needed to be MEASUREABLE.

INstead of you speak about result result result, fighting fighting fighting, those nonsense, for you yourself have never ever join a K1 type of competition. Prove me wrong, where have you really compete with signing the death waver as in K1 or Mauy Thai or any international KO pro? So, stop BSing with just mouth.

But in reality, I doubt you even have control on your heart beat and Heart beat rythm. You want to talk about fighting result without even be able to handle your own heart beat and heart beat rythm?

You want to talk about performance under pressure? how good is your handling on your Heart beat rythm? if you dont even know and aware of it, forget about your result result and figthing fighting.

Come on, Prove me wrong with your heart beat and heart beat rythm data. Show us here what is your data or track record to handle them. Show us how.

if you dont have it, what are you developing?

Using the GungHO language as only some could comprehend:

How the heck you perfom under pressure when you heart is almost jumping out of your chest and your brain wave is totally screw up.

So, you want to talk fighting? result? show me how the hell you manage this stuffs? Dont give me those BJJ girp or Tan DA BS. if you dont have handling on your heart and brain, you already lost atleast 50% unless you are not fighting but bullying weaker person. and in that case, ya, dont BS thinking you are Warrior. Warrior of what?

OK. that is a different way of communicating. :D hahaha

hahaha, dont day dream.

May be you have too much time to waste but sorry sir, this is my last post for you. I am just not interested to discuss the topic of Wing Chun - development of a martial art with you simply because

1, you deny what the ancient Chinese ancestors has practiced and thier tradition. and always love to twisted words to make yourself THE GOD of all knowing eventhough you have no clue on what is going on. I am not saying the Chinese ancestors are perfect. But, to study somehting one needs to know what it is instead of playing GOD thinking one knows it all where one has zero idea about the subject.

2, you keep bring up the term result or fighting however they are empty because they are not measureable objectively as in scientific study, and you also deny to take any challenge in providing any basic scientifically measurable data such as heart beat rythm on how a certain practice will or will not improve one's body condition which directly or indirectly influence the perfomance of a person who practice the art.

BTW. the more you post, the more you shown the disrespect of Chinese tradition. I hope you are not a Racism with superiority complex toward Chinese culture.

I rest my post here and nolonger read this time wasting post, whoever interested in technical discussion could contact me in other thread.

this is because my intention as in my posts are to present whatever details could be investigate and discuss. Not "I am right you are wrong" type of double standard ego non sense.

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 01:05 PM

Where did this come from? :eek:
I don't always agree with Terence, but to make this type of comment is absurd.

Hendrik. You should seriously consider retracting this slanderous comment.

Thank you for your advise and certainly you can view it that way.

However, for me, it is not sladerous because I express my true gut feeling after reading his posts. I cant deny my feeling and not intended to.

Perhaps, it is a culture different stuffs since we all raise in a different culture.

I am sure some will agree with you and some will agree with me. so, let this be not the point of discussion.

if you like to have a specific example:

"just like I do with the ______ crowd and their "history". And that's because I think that if something is said often enough, especially if it goes unchallenged, it sometimes begins to become "accepted" as mainstream."-----

I dont know about western culture, but, doing this in public in an unrelated thread, is
in Chinese culture is similar to call some one ba$tArd****.

NO traditional Chinese would like to have others question them about thier ancestors exist.

Challenge what? how much has he knows? is he a police to question all Chinese Cultural and mind set?

read the above posts, see how much he knows about Chinese tradition art? almost zero. So, what to challenge? if the person who wrote this is not base on EGO and Superiority complex of thinking I am right you are wrong type of assumption. what is it?

This type of stuffs usually get one's own sifu in trouble if it is happen in the Oriental.

This is exactly the type which is dislike by the older chinese even up to today,

Same old same old of when some westerners went to china in 1900;
first, in the name of science deny all of Chinese medicine practice...
then, deny all about the history of chinese, cut the almost 5 thousand years of history into half because for those westerners, what the chinese said is not possible.... and the down play continous.

Just to share with you, one of my old Qigong sifu told me how sad he feel about those practice and down play, he told me "cant people look at things in a different perspective instead of destroy these precious treasure of the ancestors due to they have no knowledge about what is going on?" see, western medicine cant heal High Blood Pressure but control with drug, Qigong could heal in many cases and atleas have a hope to heal and cured. That is one proof of the result. but in the old time, TCM and Qigong got right away kick out...

We are living in 2007, I hope everyone learn to have a better communication.

t_niehoff

02-24-2007, 02:37 PM

Hendrik, it is not a matter of a "different perspective" or different culture -- not all perspectives are valid. It is a question of what is true. The ancient chinese perspective is simply wrong about how the world, the human body, etc. work. Perhaps traditional chinese wouldn't question these things; that still doesn't make their view correct. The Mayans may have believed that the world was on the back of a giant tortoise; that is their perspective. They may not have questioned such things either. But they were wrong. We know more today than the Mayan's did, and we know more today than the ancient chinese.

Nor do I adhere to a code of conduct for a culture that is dead. We aren't living in the 18th century and this isn't China. Get over it. The world has moved on and so should you.

You keep wanting to bring Robert into this. And I keep telling you, there is no authority in WCK. If Robert believes this stuff (which IMO he doesn't), he is wrong. If Desmond Tutu believes it, he is wrong. If it is written in a kuit, the kuit is wrong. I don't care who believes the world really exists on the back of a tortoise or who believes the traditional chinese paradigm -- they are wrong. That is not how the world or the human body works. The traditional chinese training doesn't produce good results.

We know better today how to train for any athletic activity. The level of athletes today proves it, scientific studies prove it (go buy and read "Motor Control and Learning"; they've done thousands of scientific studies to figure this stuff out), etc. *All* combative athletes that can fight at decent skill level or above follow the more modern training model (which is based in reality). Kano, when he applied that model to traditional japanese jiujitsu, dominated all the traditional guys. The evidence is overwhelming. You can't find one person who uses your model and has decent fighting skills. What does that say?

You keep wanting to make it personal -- bringing in my ego, what I can or cannot do, calling me names, etc. None of that matters. I'm sorry, but the world isn't on the back of a tortoise.

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 03:12 PM

Matrix

02-24-2007, 03:47 PM

However, for me, it is not sladerous because I express my true gut feeling after reading his posts. I cant deny my feeling and not intended to. .
Hendrik,
Slander has nothing to do with how you feel, it is based on facts. It also has nothing to do with how many people agree with you. Group-think rarely produces enlightened behaviour.

History is full of examples where one group of people abused another group. This is a sad characteristic of the human race. We can all be accused of being gulity of the sins of our forefathers. If we continue to focus on what has happened in the past, we cannot move foward. The past cannot be changed. Let's learn from it, but not use it as a weapon to fuel anger or justify present day prejudice. Otherwise we will be locked into a vicious cycle.

Like you, I do not need someone else's approval to justify my beliefs. Stop trying to use force to change a mind that so inflexible. It is really a waste of time, IMO. I will paraphrase a quote that I often like to use; "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who do not believe, no amount of proof will suffice."

On a more pleasant note, we can now see the Lunar New Year celebrated openly by many different peoples in countries which used to offer that same culture nothing but disdain in the past. Things can change if we open ourselves to them. True, the change seems painfully slow at times, but it does happen.

leejunfan

02-24-2007, 03:49 PM

Guys..... just drop this tiresome arguement. Niether one of you is going to convince the other.... and in the grand scheme..... this thread will have absolutely NO IMPACT on kung fu/wing chun/martial arts as a whole. It's not even the beginning of a blip on the radar ;)

byond1

02-24-2007, 06:36 PM

My comments follow below with ++++

Part 1

Just some thoughts for technical discussion:

Please do not read this post if you are not interested in technical and only technical discussion. For IMHO, this post might be political incorrect because it is about digging up what is the truth.

+++Those who cant handle the fire need to get out of the Kitchen. The fire of truth burns and consumes all who challenge it.

You dont have to agree with me.
f we are talking Traditional Chinese Martial art, then,
we first has to know what is an external art and what is an internal art. we need to actually trained with experience teacher before we can make any type of comment which reflex the reality. Otherwise, it is a mind spining seculation not what reality is about.

++++True. And hopefully in your above statement you were not assumeing what i have or havnt trained. As i am probably one of the only people here posting who has legitamelty trained the Basic Sup Yee Zhuang methods. :)

Mind speculation has little to do with the truth, of cource only someone with "Grounded Vision" or "Clear Vision" can percieve the truth. Speculation on what someone does or doesnt mean is also worthless, and serves nothing more than casting the Eye of Judgment and causing stryfe and feeds the ego. Reality isnt about trying to proove others are not Percieving Reality. And what hope does one have with words to convey that which cant be conveyed with words??.

Your example of Yin and Yang IMHO, is off the mark totally, IMHO, because one cannnot be awake and sleeping in the same time disregard how one can reason logically or thinking reasonablely.

+++As" true reality" isnt based on Dual states , like your analogy of sleeping and awake, that is a spinning mind speculation, IMO.
"True Reality" is actually only "1". Yin and Yang are the same substance, just as electrisitiy has 2 states of Positive and Negative, of only 1 substance. Those who have clear vision, and have walked it experiance it. This requires a Wholistic view, though, not one of Demarcation and segmenting. Once who experiances isnt always one who can put it into words. But does that matter? As words are not the truth.

Most of us, eventhought see lots of Taiji or whatever so called internal art on TV or DVD...ect the truth is how many including those in China has activated the 8 special medirians and doing the set with that type of standard?

+++You tread on dangerous ground in terms of words. Who defines what is internal?? Who is the judge? Who chooses the judge ? Who states 8 special meridians = Intenal ? Who states just Du and Ren activated with Dan Tien build up = internal? Who states Internal is about Breath? Who states Internal is about Chi?? Who states its none of these? or all of these?? Who states its about Posture for the internal?? Who is right ? Who is wrong ? And who is set up as Judge?? Many classics. And many conflicts about what is or isnt Internal or external. Whats the referance point? Who deciedes the referance point? Who is sets the criterion? Do we talk TCM standard?? or MA standard? if Ma, what kind Wudang, southern Siu lum, Northern shaolin, Hakka, Emie ?

If not, then one doesnt know what is internal training. That clear. However, how many of us willing to accept this facts? NOPE, mimic posture is not by default internal art at all.

+++lost you. Not sure why this was mentioned. Who says mimicing a posture is internal?? Who states Internal is just about posture?? That doesnt make any sence.

Thus, I have heard.
So, that is another layer of depth one needs to enter to know internal. Until the special 8 medirians is activate, one just could imagine what is that about.
so, if we are using this type of standard, look at the WCner of the past 60 years. HOw many have this type of understanding?

+++How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??

Wing chun is not an internal style. -------

Again, if one is talking about Traditional Chinese Martial art, then one needs to first define what is an internal art of TRaditional Chinese Martial art, what is the process of the training, otherwise, there is no discussion can be proceed.

+++True. BUt who defines?? Who is the chosen to define for ""ALL TRADITIONAL CHINESE MA"" ? Experiance leads differant people to differant perceptions and diffeant training. Hence we have thousands of variations of the Chinese MA as well as thousands of training methods. If there was only 1 correct perception,or 1 correct training method, we would only have 1 Chinese MA in existance.

Its not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang.-------

It is not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang but it has the components of Emie 12 Zhuang, that is a fact by evidents which we know today.

+++Component- and since the component was removed from the Emie"system" and fused with other components removed from the Crane "System" is has been fused and used to create a New "System" which is neither of the orignal 2.

WCK could be practised like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang or It could be practised like Weng Chun County White Crane. or it can be practised like it should, in the middle. -----

So, how is WCK practice like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang is like? what kind of result will it yield?
So, HOw is WCK practive like Weng Chun County White Crane is like? what kind of result will it yield?
So, what is middle? what kind of result will it yield?
Until these are all clear, there is no meaning for the speculation because it really has no meaning in the TRaditional Chinese Martial art experience sense, May be in arguement shake make sense. But in training and the process of training what is that means?

+++Again, if you personaly havnt trained Emie 12 jong from the current or the last lineage holder or a diciple, nor personaly trained Yong chun Coutny White crane , you wouldnt be able to answer the above questions, and the above is more arguement for arguement sake. Simply reading a book, or knowing someone that trains it, isnt first hand experiance. And if you do train them, like i do, am i qualified?? How far have i traveled in the approaches?? My answer would be differant than Grandmaster Fu's. What kind of results?? Depends are where you are in the training, and how deep you go.

Many differant results. As there are many differant branchs with diffearnt training methods just of Yong Chun White Crane. So all of the above is still speculation. And your statement does apply, as in perhaps the above makes sence in an arguement - word sence, but are the questions being asked by someone who doesnt have the answers - So are the right questions being asked?

I dont say this to be contrary - as you know i have great respect for you, but to me its just as much speculation as anyone else. And either one trains and than will gradualy come to understand or one is simply talking.

Focusing on 1 and not both, would be counter intuitive to Why WCK was created.----

This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.

+++I agree. See above. And my statments are made based on Real time experiance with both as well as 20 years in WCK. That is what i have been doing for the last 2 years. Experianceing and learning about White Crane and Emie systems and training basics so i can understand the differance between them both and WCK . Im also starting to make regular trips to learn the entire 12 jong system, while im visiting my YKS sifu. But the question should be also asked of yourself and everyone. Have you studied both formaly?? Have you learned Emie from Grandmaster Fu or a Student? Or someone who went to a seminar once?? or from a book?? if not, its mind spectulation.

byond1

02-24-2007, 06:37 PM

part 2

True,

However, the second one practice whatever style which is based on Emei 12 Jong in a hard/external way. there no longer has the benifit of the Emei 12 jong. Because Emei 12 Jong based art is internal and solid internal and only can yield result with Internal training. Go Emei way has to go internal. meaning is one practice the move in the external or hard way. The SNAKE DIE. snake has to go soft and internal if it is taking advantage/benifit from the Emei 12 zhuang's snake slide pupal moves.

+++This sounds based on speculation. WCK can be done like Emie but than its not WCK, as WCK isnt emie. It onlly contains elements of Emie.

And whats interesting is, it is not clear, how internal the Oldest version of WCK was, as its unclear what "The" exact original system looked like. The Writings of Yik kam may point to an Internal WCK, but that isnt pointed to in Cho Gar system proper, YKS, Kulo, Cheung Bo or Lo Kwai family. The core older systems all stressed Tendon Devlopement via twisiting and releasing. YKS had 2 teachers. We know one of them was on the RedBoats and possibly both of them. They didnt pass down an exclusivly Internal system. Instead a style that had attributes of both methods of training. So it seems that since more systems do not preserve an entirely Internal WCK its likely that it has never been so. Now, perhaps one person or a few people specialized in using the Emie system components.

Leung Jan and known Doctor didnt pass down WCK as an internal system. In Foshan his student Lo Kwai still has relatives to this day preserving Leungs teachings from that era. He to passed down supplemental Hei Gung forms similar to the form from Wai yuk Sang. As did Pan Nam. As does certain branchs of Cho Gar. As does Fut Sau WCK.

what is a middle path in term of Mind/Body/Qi? until one could define that we dont know what is it but just word without meaning.

+++All internet discusions have no meaning and are only words. And mostly used to feed ego. And definitions of words have differant meaning from person to person. So by whos standard do we define this words you listed? Mind/Body/Chi are differant Phases of condensation of One, that are a micro cosmic version of the Macrocosm.
The words i use to desribe it is Spirit, Soul, and Body. Mind falls within Soul, and has 2 phases. The Spiritual Soul/Mind and the Body Soul/mind. the first is the Higher mind. The second is the ego false mind. Chi is part of the Body layer. And has several aspects including a Formative propery/Blue Print.

IMHHHHO,

it is not a middle path. it is Snake powered Crane potential.
Snake powered because the process of training capable to cultivate a snake like power.
Crane potential because the application potential is core on center line, five elements concept of white crane of Fujian.

So, it is an internal cultivation art using the center potential. Look at the SLT/SNT is that is the set presenting and expressing? the issue today is that one still can identify the Crane potential however the snake powered has fade away much more servely and become no clear.

++++The crane has faded from modern WCK. Hence most people who use H.K WCK as a referance point for comparison with crane systems, dont see the link, as the crane elements have been streamlined out.
When you take older systems, such as Cho, YKS, Kulo, the crane influence is Obvious.
And your personal idea of the Snake may or may not exist anymore and May or may not have ever been part of the ancestral system. You havnt defined it clearly, nor explained how others can train it so they can learn from experiance. I may understand your meaning but may not. The mechanics of Emie are differant to how i pracise my WCK.

But the Use of the Snake boxing component is still prevelant in YKS, Cheung Bo, and Yiu Choi/Yiu Kay branchs. Its a core component that has been trained since the late 1800s. Fok Cho Chuen specialized in the Sai Ying Sau method for example. This is totaly differant to your idea of Snake engine. Snake hand and spiraling energy is a core component of most old School WCK.

Programing the muscles is a valid part of the Sup Yee San SIk training in YKS and Kulo WCK. -------

That is fine, and WCK has been going Throught multi Localization Evolution due to multi-lineage and 150 years atleast. So, some might like it to be Kyokushin style and some will like it to be BJJ style. Nothing wrong with it. everyone is right. however, how to turn on the SLT/SNT engine? that become a question.

+++I agree the Engine needs to be turned on> But there are alot more things that need to be understood before we can clearly see the ancestral method WCk used to do this. And Tendon Changing and muscle programing isnt proven to be a Localized evolution. And actually contrary to that, is the Internal training seems to be a localized evolution of the system that only a few focused on.

During this programing Yik Gang is trained.-----

Could Yi Gang turn on the SLT/SNT Engine? NOPE, If Yi Gang training could turn it on then one doesnt need supplement such as the kidney Qi return to its origine.. IMHO.Yi Gang is not Snake slide pulpa move, not to mention Yi Gang has many version. So which version of Yi Gang? That needs to be solved.

++++Yik Gang has never been supposed to turn on the engine. Its a method of body conditioning. If Yik gang wasnt important WCK wouldnt include Hei Gung that ALSO works Tendon Devlopment - as thats how much importance we place on it.

Nothing needs to be solved about Yik kang. It is well preserved in the YKS system as passed down by Sum Nung.

Once a framework has been ingrained, you gradualy shift the training twords Yee and Chi. ------

How to cultivate Yee and Chi? the process, without that again, it is mind speculation which has no meaning but lots of words.

+++Everything in every thread ever posted is lots of words and nothing else. The process of cultivation Possibly is Localized evolution that only 1 or 2 branchs focused on, as most older branchs do not include that type of training.

This follows the framework that White Crane trains. From external to internal. Both being part of the big picture and needed for the proper development, IMO------

So, what is the training of White Crane? what is the different between the eating crane, the older post 1800 crane, the humming crane....etc. Which is internal which is external? even Crane, Yes, Crane has evolved into Hard or soft system after 1800.

So, which is which?

+++Which?? Of cource the branchs that are most related to Wing Chun. The Yong Chun County White Crane system. 2 Main branchs. Pang/Siu and Lee Kong. They both move from External to Internal.

The later systems have a wide variation base ranging from Hard to soft, from long range to short range.

The temple of the body must be strengthened. Tendons need to be changed. Skeletal system must learn to align and muslces must allow to settle and relax. This gives a Framework for the Chi To be built up in, that can handle the higher voltage and energy.-------

Great idea but how?

+++?!?! Via proper training? Which can only be passed down by someone else who has trained it.

The most screw up today IMHHHHHO is that we are comparing posture not the Process of training. and the key about INternal and external is in the Process of training not in the posture.

+++Who is doing this??

and

we have lost the training Process, but evolve with different type of application from Karate Side Kick adding into CK in the 60's to BJJ application added in the 90's. But we lost the training process or the body/mind/breathing conditioning core part of the art since early 1900. IMHO

+++That remains to be seen, as the ancestral systems dont support this, and its seems more like a Localized evolution.

Localized EVolution is a must and right. However, do we still do WCK? that is a quesition we could search into.

+++Yes. And many cross over the line of demarcation and , imo , no longer do WCK, but do JKD.

IMHO, lets face it in the past 60 years, WCK is importing lots of great application and evolve great in the applications of the art. However, do we still have the process for training that we could trace to answer the question either it is external or internal? That we all know and have to admit, today, WCK is an external art in general.

+++Depends of referance point. To me, yes we still have the training. My idea of training is intact in Kulo, Lo Kwai, Cheung Bo, MGW, and YKS families. But my idea of training are differant to yours. I agree we need to be more "Natural". I agree we need to make sure to keep Chi, Breath and Mind work. But that isnt the entire scope of the WCK process, its only a part of it.

B

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 07:20 PM

Hendrik,
Slander has nothing to do with how you feel, it is based on facts. It also has nothing to do with how many people agree with you. Group-think rarely produces enlightened behaviour.

History is full of examples where one group of people abused another group. This is a sad characteristic of the human race. We can all be accused of being gulity of the sins of our forefathers. If we continue to focus on what has happened in the past, we cannot move foward. The past cannot be changed. Let's learn from it, but not use it as a weapon to fuel anger or justify present day prejudice. Otherwise we will be locked into a vicious cycle.

Like you, I do not need someone else's approval to justify my beliefs. Stop trying to use force to change a mind that so inflexible. It is really a waste of time, IMO. I will paraphrase a quote that I often like to use; "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who do not believe, no amount of proof will suffice."

On a more pleasant note, we can now see the Lunar New Year celebrated openly by many different peoples in countries which used to offer that same culture nothing but disdain in the past. Things can change if we open ourselves to them. True, the change seems painfully slow at times, but it does happen.

Matrix,

Thank you for your excellent caring post.

See, I am dont intend to change anyone or convince anyone or ...

What I am trying is to communicate as much as I can about the stuffs from the past which we today has missed. Those things could be good bad perfect imperfect. I am just playing a messenger so that those who is interest could have a direction to search into.

peace

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 08:21 PM

++++True. And hopefully in your above statement you were not assumeing what i have or havnt trained. As i am probably one of the only people here posting who has legitamelty trained the Basic Sup Yee Zhuang methods. :) --------

what do you mean by basic sup yee zhuang methods? Does GM Fu help you to activate your medirians

+++You tread on dangerous ground in terms of words. Who defines what is internal?? Who is the judge? Who chooses the judge ? Who states 8 special meridians = Intenal ? Who states just Du and Ren activated with Dan Tien build up = internal? Who states Internal is about Breath? Who states Internal is about Chi?? Who states its none of these? or all of these?? Who states its about Posture for the internal?? Who is right ? Who is wrong ? And who is set up as Judge?? Many classics.-------

since you have train in Emei 12 zhuang, if my memory serve, all of your above question had been answered by late Dr. Chow's writing, Dr Chow is the lineage holder of Emei 12 zhuang, . IMHO, I dont see any dangerous ground at all since Dr. Chow writing deal with even advance mind/body/qi activation and handling then these basic of the basic.

+++How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??....

I dont say this to be contrary - as you know i have great respect for you, but to me its just as much speculation as anyone else. And either one trains and than will gradualy come to understand or one is simply talking.

Well, there migh be three answer on how would one know. IMHO,

1, there are plenty of books/writing on the 8 special channel which is not popular or known in the west. So, those who could read the classical chinese be able to learn about these stuffs, what it is likely, what it is not likely, and have a clear picture what is happening. ( while we in the west have no clue about them but speculate or and resist the technology with our clueless logical speculation)

2, one has a sifu who is experience and know about those stuffs so one could learn about them.

3, one has attained the activation.

So, those who are in the above 3 catagory will know even thier clarity are different. but those have no clue will not know. IMHO.

as for which one of the above or none of the above is me.

That I hope somedays when you attain your Emei 12 zhuang level 3 (there are many level....) training then do an assesment on me and tell the public my original face.

See, I dont expect you to respect me. I am happy that you see what reality is somedays. may be I am just a buls****er. hahaha

BTW. I am using biofeedback machine, so, no ancestors will know what the heck is that. hahahaha :D (joking)

This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.

+++I agree. See above. And my statments are made based on Real time experiance with both as well as 20 years in WCK.

That is what i have been doing for the last 2 years. Experianceing and learning about White Crane and Emie systems and training basics so i can understand the differance between them both and WCK .

Im also starting to make regular trips to learn the entire 12 jong system, while im visiting my YKS sifu. ----------------

IMHO, thus, I have heard, years doesnt mean much but STATE of the attainment is the key.

as the WCK saying said " learning has no senior or junior, whoever has mastering the subject is the teacher."

I could learn from you too if your attain STATE is more advance then me.

But the question should be also asked of yourself and everyone.

Have you studied both formaly?? Have you learned Emie from Grandmaster Fu or a Student? Or someone who went to a seminar once?? or from a book??

if not, its mind spectulation.------

Good question and great idea and excellent challenge.
Thank you. I am certainly very happy from your question, that shows me your wings are grow now.

am I the person who is first to give out the direction about Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane fusion ... based on my mind speculation? :D

or you have known them before me? In that case, that is great.

but you see, I dont go for the path of name droping, State attainment is my preference. One could learn from Miu Shun himself, but if one doestn realized and attain the state. It doesnt mean much at all. IMHHHHO.

as if I do mind speculation? may be and always.

but it is simple to get to the facts, anyone (you could be one of them since you know emeil 12 zhuang now. ) who has equal or more advance state then me will be able to read my state via my posting . an I welcome for them to critics me based on my writing. I might be full of it. hahahaha.

as for writing and instruction, well, how many version of Emei writing do you think there is beside Gm Fu's seminal or book? I happen to have collect a few version from Gm Fu's sifu generations.... which is not translate into englished yet.

as formal training, isnt that anyone who formaly study WCK from the ancient tradition by default has the key elements of its parents?

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 08:25 PM

+++But my idea of training are differant to yours. I agree we need to be more "Natural". I agree we need to make sure to keep Chi, Breath and Mind work. But that isnt the entire scope of the WCK process, its only a part of it.

B

Thanks for sharing.

Just to clarify what I am saying about Natural.

Thus, I have heard, Natural is about
it is about return to Natural state or let go let God or Dao Mimic Nature, instead of more "Natural", for in that state the mind/qi/breathing/body take care of itself.
it is also called "alchemy the Shen to return to the emptiness."

peace

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 08:26 PM

seems that my reply being trunkate. missing a big part of them......:mad:

Matrix

02-24-2007, 08:26 PM

What I am trying is to communicate as much as I can about the stuffs from the past which we today has missed. Those things could be good bad perfect imperfect. I am just playing a messenger so that those who is interest could have a direction to search into.Hendrik,
I can see what you are trying to communicate, and appreciate that. Just remember that communication is a two way street. The other person must be open to receiving what you are sending. They have their own agenda.

Unfortunately, some already have made up their minds about how things are in their view of the world. Nothing you can say will change that. I agree with you that there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost, but you must share them those who are open to them. As the idiom says "retain when it comes, send away when it goes".

Peace,
Bill

Matrix

02-24-2007, 08:31 PM

you guys are like a merry go round.... going round and round...... and getting NO WHERE!Yeah, but if you can make it go round fast enough it makes you dizzy. :p

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 09:28 PM

Hendrik,
I can see what you are trying to communicate, and appreciate that. Just remember that communication is a two way street. The other person must be open to receiving what you are sending. They have their own agenda.

Unfortunately, some already have made up their minds about how things are in their view of the world. Nothing you can say will change that. I agree with you that there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost, but you must share them those who are open to them. As the idiom says "retain when it comes, send away when it goes".

Peace,
Bill

You are right.

and to be real honest, IMHO, lots of ancient training is not as effective as what we can do today if we use the biofeedback technology..... so, I am not advocate the all ancient is good either.

With
the biofeedback technology today, it is very good to help preserve lots of things.
That is Because now we could, by reading the data from the biofeedback machine compare that with the ancient writing of the mind/body states which needs to Enter into different condition or applications.

IE: when one sees one's HRV or heart beat variation rythm reflex one's dan dien breathing....etc. One knows the state and knows one got it right and know the result is surfacing...... in the old time this stuffs is almost cant be communicate and people spend decades just to making clear what the sifu is describing about.....

That part needs to be acknowlegde and explore somedays after we all know about what is the ancient try to do..... That is a big field with lots of excitement in it.

peace

Matrix

02-24-2007, 10:02 PM

and to be real honest, IMHO, lots of ancient training is not as effective as what we can do today if we use the biofeedback technology..... so, I am not advocate the all ancient is good either.

True. What we think is leading-edge today will seem primative in the future. What we must remember is that what we have today was built on the sacrifices of those who came before us. For that reason we should be respectful, IMO.
Keep in mind that technological innovation does not necessarily lead to improved quality of life. Some may argue that some technology has only served to detach us from our true humanity. I feel my life is better today because of my Wing Chun training. I am thankful for that gift.

Hendrik

02-24-2007, 10:42 PM

True. What we think is leading-edge today will seem primative in the future. What we must remember is that what we have today was built on the sacrifices of those who came before us. For that reason we should be respectful, IMO.
Keep in mind that technological innovation does not necessarily lead to improved quality of life. Some may argue that some technology has only served to detach us from our true humanity. I feel my life is better today because of my Wing Chun training. I am thankful for that gift.

I fully agree with you.

peace

Hendrik

02-25-2007, 08:21 AM

See the tranditional Chinese internal way of WCK From GM TST lineage's WCK development.

Enjoy

" Originally Posted by 7106 View Post
Hi Murray,

I have some things I would like you to ask Sigung on my behalf.

There are several small questions, all related.

I’ll use language that I think will work from me to you.

I remember you mentioned elsewhere on the forum that Sigung achieved Nim Lik in the first two years of training, but had to hone his skill at applying it over his whole training, which is roughly fourteen years, plus the training since then (another 35 years or so).

Could you ask Sigung to remember all the way back to the beginning of his training, when he first began to feel different about how he was physically performing the moves of SLT.

My questions are all based during that time.

When Sigung came to Sydney I asked to feel his arm when he is applying Nim Lik, and it feels like something is moving under the skin of his forearm.

Is ‘Jin Sung’ the same thing as ‘Nim Lik’ or are they different (I assume they are different)? Is ‘Jin Sung’ stage two and ‘Nim Lik’ stage three? Is what I felt under Sigungs skin ‘Jin Sung’ or ‘Nim Lik’?

Does Sigung remember when he was building up this ability to concentrate and ‘move chi around his body’ and so forth, whether or not he was able initially to move it only through one part of the body before another – so maybe one limb before another, or arms before legs, or the spine before the limbs? Basically did he find it more difficult to move it into one region of the body over another?....

Hi Pat, currently I'm on a break from training for Chinese New Year.

I'll do my best to answer these questions, as we discuss this sort of thing a lot.
As for asking Sigung these particular questions... it would seriously be easier to ask Sifu simply because he can speak English and they're your questions so you know what you mean. My Cantonese is certainly not good enough to ask things like this so it'd need to be translated through a Sisuk so you'd be getting back a third-hand answer.

First of all, Jin Sung is not Nim Lik.
Also I did not mean to say you lift Jin Sung through your spine. Re-reading my post I can see how it could be read that way so I'm sorry.
It is chi channeling up the spine. Jin Sung will help this.
It is chi you felt in Sigung's arm.

I know chi is a hard to believe concept in the west. Maybe you could think of it as a physical thought. Or the physical reaction your thought has in your body.

As for where can it start? It has to start at the bottom and move up the spine. Once it reaches the top, you then sink it down through relaxing your muscles. At first you can only do small sections of the body. Ultimately the sinking and lifting should happen simultaneously and it should spread throughout your entire body.
Once you can sink it down your body, like you said you can put it in any direction you want, forwards, up, down, back etc.
The long pole is the hardest thing in Wing Chun because you are actually raising one half of the body while sinking the other half to make a movement.

As for control when you are learning... You can get glimpses of the state but if you are not relaxed and focussed enough you lose it the next moment and then can spend a long time searching for it again.
When you get it, it's constant.
Sigung says it is easier at first to gain control in the upper part of the body before learning to sink it further down but of course it depends on the person.

As for a strong feeling at the top of the spine... "

http://forums.wingchun.com.au/art/2304-focusing-spirit-2.html

Hendrik

02-25-2007, 10:53 AM

In the above post,

I called the SLT art the Snake powered Crane Potential. IMHO, that is what arrive after both a long time and effort of observation and investigation.

Why not called it a MIDDLE PATH?

so why is it not called middle path or combination of hard and soft or combination of internal or external.

That is IMHO because middle path, combination of hard and soft or combination of internal or external sounds good and sound deep but actually carefully examine it. It is very generalized , it is logical sound, but what actually the term tell us? IMHO, very superficial.

Snake powered Crane potential

As for Snake powered Crane potential, the following are how the structure could be investigate both in big picture and details.

1, Snake powered Crane potential is the uniqueness of WCK. as Bnice and others has mentioned, Emei 12 zhuang is not WCK and White Crane from fujian is not WCK. and WCK is not them.

Snake powered Crane potential makes WCK very unique and attractive.

application and core body-- the chinese way of mind set

So, to further investigate what is snake powered crane potential means. we could start to investigate via either application point of view or via "core body" point of view, but both will close the loop or big picture supporting each other disregard of where one starts. that is similar to a circle could be start from anywhere of the circle and always return to the same point as soon as it is a circle. Why do we have to us both the Application and Core Body view here? that is because the Chinese design is based on Core Body (tee) and Application (yoong) to describe the basic essencial components of an object, phenomenon...etc. So, we need to understand it via how those in the past think instead of apply our today's logic which doesnt lead us to see clearly what were they doing.

What is Potential means ?

Ok,

So, say start with Application,

the term "Potential" as in Sun Tzu the art of war described is about the potential of both Potential energy and Kinetic energy, one is in a static form and the other is in a dynamic form.

What is a crane potential?

In today's langugage, the Crane potential could be view as

a, The Centering/balancing or static potential is such as manifest when one is focus on center lining, elbow centering....etc. and

b, flow/transform or dynamic potential is such as manifest when one is doing chain punch, transform from tan to bong natually , adaptively disolve two arms with one.

The centering principle above is a core component of White Crane from Fujian namely the proper centering. Also, the flow/ transform principle above is another core component of white crane namely the five elements transformation principle.

one could found the above two core of applications within the SLT/SNT.

what is needed to power the crane potential in the SLT/SNT way?

Now,
to power the a and b, one could do it in different way. one could do it in a hard way with lots of body muscle action, external way with discrete but fast action, with soft way using resonance as string of a guitar, internal way with continous adaptive action.

and, looking at the SLT/SNT we see, a characteristic of Soft way using resonance and details continous adaptive action is an optimal way of handling the set.

So, that lead to how the Core body needs to be condition.

snake slides worm moves, the uniqueness of the Emei 12 zhuang

and,
if we examine the Emei 12 zhuang, we could find, the core of this art satisfied the above two needs. namely, via the Emei 12 zhuang's "snake slides worm moves", meaning the conditioning is done similar to a snake slides and a worm moves.
and often it is said snake arm worm finger. via this type of gradually softly and waving resonance, one condition one's full body.

Not to mention, this type of training/conditioning make able for one to transport the resonance waving power to the finger tip without tensing the arm or finger and still preserve the awareness or sensing of the same arm or finger. That--- is where Biu Jee power comes from. and, with the worm moves one could have a perfect handling in small details.

Now, in a deeper level, due to the travel of the qi in the Mai or medirians is a type of resonance in today's language. one is not only using the snake slide worm moves to power the explicit movement but also using the medirians transportation to power the inner resonance. This level of training needs the preparation traning of INtention, breathing, and Qi transport body to enter the "door" into the State.

majority of people doesnt aware of this level of art exist and is possible. indeed it is a key to implementing the concept "comes recieve....using silence to lead the action." we could only now trace this inner tradition of WCK to very few people such as GM TST's teaching.

Thus, with this type of power it is an optimal fit to power the crane potential applications naturally.

?

why only internal path will work

NOw, what we need to know is that this type of snake slides worm moves power could only be train from internal art conditioning as in the emei 12 zhuang classical writing said, " one must not applied any muscular force at all to any part of the body ".

That is implying any use of muscle tension or local forcing/tensing will not attain the result of the training. That is also the key of why it has to be internal art training and not the external one. not to mention, a tension body block the development of resonance power.

why is the parents needed?

The parents are needed because the parents could help one to see clearly and aids the process of developing the Potential and Power. So, is it really needed? yes, in our time, now, as an example we have lost the fool prove way of generate the short power. if we forcing the muscle trying to generate the short power, that end up jamming up the power and become rigid or discrete which is no longer the original vision of details continous adaptive flow of power which power up the SLT/SNT, eventhough it is great for demontration but could not be issued at will at any time for demanding applications. The generation of the short power must be simple, nature, and at ease lead by intention not tensing.

conclusion, imho

As a conclusion,IMHO, here above I post a brief on my view of SLT/SNT from the big picture and small details, what it is, what is its uniqueness, what is the key ingredient or components, where and which part of the mother art these keys are from. hopefully that could serve as a brief direction for anyone's who is interested in doing further research or self improvement.

and NOpe, just go study some white crane and some emei 12 zhuang is not going to get to become a master. One needs to be attaining the states to know what it is instead of name droping and term droping and thinking one knows it all.

not to mention, for example, just to get to be able to handle the "large character Zhuang "of the 12 zhuang needs a long time and depth of internal Zhen Qi training, it is about using Yee to lead the Qi to move the coins hang on a string. how long do one think one needs to develop this type of power? how many of us knows the details of training and the states of the process?

So, IMHO, often we in the west are just too naive of thinking joing a school means know it all. because we think mimic some postures and that's all. NOpe that is not all. it is about internal alchemy. it takes 100 days and 2 hours everyday to practice some state. and then another 100 days if the state is not attaint and then another 100days. and then another 100 days. it is not as simply as it looks. I am not trying to discourage but to show what is reality and why we dont have result today training the internal art--- most of us (me especiallY) doesnt have the patient and discipline.

however, doing the SLT/SNT properly will lead one to the insight. and that is the important thing, it is WCK not white crane or Emei 12 zhuang anyway. those are excellent aids not but WCK.

one example is checked out the GM TST group. They have insight and actually activating the first two special medirians.... So, it is not as some speculate on how my tread on dangerous ground in terms of words and Who defines what is internal?. Those who has practiced chinese internal art knows, those who has reached the state knows. it is basics stuffs but lots of people was not expose to these.

http://forums.wingchun.com.au/art/23...-spirit-2.html

in the past 60 years or so we have do a great job in promoting WCK and now, IMHO, is the time to probe deep into what is what and progress even further.

saying these above, imho, moral issue become imporant , as the spider man movie said " great power comes with great responsibility". to be able to fight is not a bad thing, knowing how to manange oneself to not fight and not provoke fighting to show personal superiority is something needs to look deep into. otherwise , by the name of righteousness serving ego boosting will become a problem.

enjoy

byond1

02-25-2007, 03:56 PM

what do you mean by basic sup yee zhuang methods? Does GM Fu help you to activate your medirians

+++No. I told you about it in one of the last emails i sent you. I have never met Grandmaster. I only know the First set, and so that is Basic. But at least i have that to train as a foundation.

You tread on dangerous ground in terms of words. Who defines what is internal?? Who is the judge? Who chooses the judge ? Who states 8 special meridians = Intenal ? Who states just Du and Ren activated with Dan Tien build up = internal? Who states Internal is about Breath? Who states Internal is about Chi?? Who states its none of these? or all of these?? Who states its about Posture for the internal?? Who is right ? Who is wrong ? And who is set up as Judge?? Many classics.-------B

since you have train in Emei 12 zhuang, if my memory serve, all of your above question had been answered by late Dr. Chow's writing, Dr Chow is the lineage holder of Emei 12 zhuang, . IMHO, I dont see any dangerous ground at all since Dr. Chow writing deal with even advance mind/body/qi activation and handling then these basic of the basic.

+++You miss my point my friend. WHat makes his view correct?? What makes Others views correct?? Who is there to judge who is correct?? Its dangerous because "WOrds" do not convey truth. Only experiance will.

How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??....B

Well, there migh be three answer on how would one know. IMHO,

1, there are plenty of books/writing on the 8 special channel which is not popular or known in the west. So, those who could read the classical chinese be able to learn about these stuffs, what it is likely, what it is not likely, and have a clear picture what is happening. ( while we in the west have no clue about them but speculate or and resist the technology with our clueless logical speculation)

+++Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.

2, one has a sifu who is experience and know about those stuffs so one could learn about them.
3, one has attained the activation.

+++I agree with both of these. BUt even #2, doesnt do much unless you take what you are taught and actually train it, so you get your own experiance.

So, those who are in the above 3 catagory will know even thier clarity are different. but those have no clue will not know. IMHO.

+++True. And if someone hasnt learned from a master who has experianced the proper training, than passed down the proper training, and than train it, and experiance it,that is the only path to truth, in my opinion, anything else There is nothing but Mind speculation. Anyone can read a book.

as for which one of the above or none of the above is me.
That I hope somedays when you attain your Emei 12 zhuang level 3 (there are many level....) training then do an assesment on me and tell the public my original face.

+++Yes. Many levels. ANd im still working on level 1, so dont hold your breath waiting for me:)

See, I dont expect you to respect me. I am happy that you see what reality is somedays. may be I am just a buls****er. hahaha

+++I know you dont expect that. I state the fact though as it is true that i have great respect for you. This last ost isnt to be contrary, but to truly question ourselves and be a catalyst for growth. When we stop questioning ourselves and our perceptions, we can fall back into loosing our Clear Vision. I have experianced Completly clear states, but cant maintain it during the day, so i have a superficial development currently. So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves.

This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.

I agree. See above. And my statments are made based on Real time experiance with both as well as 20 years in WCK.
That is what i have been doing for the last 2 years. Experianceing and learning about White Crane and Emie systems and training basics so i can understand the differance between them both and WCK .
m also starting to make regular trips to learn the entire 12 jong system, while im visiting my YKS sifu. ----------------

IMHO, thus, I have heard, years doesnt mean much but STATE of the attainment is the key.
as the WCK saying said " learning has no senior or junior, whoever has mastering the subject is the teacher."
I could learn from you too if your attain STATE is more advance then me

+++I agree. And I wasnt name dropping. I was answering your statement of "Experiance on the parent systems" - That doesnt mean i was implying simply since i go to a school im a master, or have attainment, that is a negative view of my statement, and perhaps you should look into your own mind as to why you assumed that or think something like that when you have never met me nor experianced my level.

I cant judge my own attainment, as im only a student, and not qualified. But simply do my best. I hear many talking about what is what in WCK and yet very few have actually gone and trained. Just like when you are questioned on Knowledge of Shaolin, and Chan, and you mention your former Sifu. Is that name dropping ?? Or simply answering the question.

.

byond1

02-25-2007, 03:56 PM

But the question should be also asked of yourself and everyone.
Have you studied both formaly?? Have you learned Emie from Grandmaster Fu or a Student? Or someone who went to a seminar once?? or from a book??
if not, its mind spectulation.------B

Good question and great idea and excellent challenge.
Thank you. I am certainly very happy from your question, that shows me your wings are grow now.

+++A Respectfull Challenge. With Tones of Positive Joy and love. We need to scrutnize our thoughts. Mind Speculation is the root of many many problems in life. Its easy to intellectualize things, but as we know, this isnt truth. Truth is b-Yond. My question comes from if we are going to say WCK is "something" - we need to have supportive real time experiance.

For example - Yik Kam family writings may point to Emie 12 jong. Chows book supports the link. Cho Hong Choi Sifu, may have seen the link. Hendrik may have seen the link. HS than does research, on several diffearnt levels including Kuen Kuit, Medical, and comes to a very likely senario in his mind that WCKs snake ancestor is from Ermie Mountain. BUT - If HS hasnt trained the Emie - Experianced it and gotten some attainment - he has nothing validating the writings of Chow and Yik kam. Than its only speculation and scholastic nonsence. Than has the WCK SLT been trained using the Emie?? What is attained and does it validate the other info??

I dont question the strong link of WCK to Emie Mountain. BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true. Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path.

I dont have an answer currently to how "Internal" WCK was and should be. And still believe in Middle path, which incidently isnt any more generalized than the terms "Internal" and "External" or Soft and Hard - which can be defined 100 differant ways.

am I the person who is first to give out the direction about Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane fusion ... based on my mind speculation?

or you have known them before me? In that case, that is great.

+++LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part;) . Mind speculation isnt bad unto itself. Its simply not truth. It can be a valid starting point, which than needs to be validated with experianced and training, as many times Mind Speculation crumbles under the weight of truth.

I actually have known about White Crane being the parent of WCK 8 years before i met you -ruffly 13 years ago. As an artist and musician i have always seen and felt the mechanics as well as Asthetic connection. I have also known that WCK contained a Snake Boxing system for just as long, and have had a strong opinion that it was from Emie moutain for at least 5 years, as that is my Systems oral tradition.

I had never heard of the Emie 12 Zhuang prior to you. BUt that changes nothing. Mind speculation is mind speculation. Experiance and attainment are Experiance and attainment.

but you see, I dont go for the path of name droping, State attainment is my preference. One could learn from Miu Shun himself, but if one doestn realized and attain the state. It doesnt mean much at all. IMHHHHO.

+++Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation. People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation

as if I do mind speculation? may be and always.
but it is simple to get to the facts, anyone (you could be one of them since you know emeil 12 zhuang now. ) who has equal or more advance state then me will be able to read my state via my posting . an I welcome for them to critics me based on my writing. I might be full of it. hahahaha.

++++Anyone seeking to interpret ones experiance and attainment via a posting on a forum is someone seeking Ego rubbing from Judging others and is trapped in Mind Speculation mode. Words to not convey the truth of someones thoughts and experiance. They can only point in the general direction. And even than- not always. I also wouldnt say i "Know Emie 12 Posts" I would say " I know Basic Emie training and do my best to train it everyday". I will take the rest of my life to "Know it"

as for writing and instruction, well, how many version of Emei writing do you think there is beside Gm Fu's seminal or book? I happen to have collect a few version from Gm Fu's sifu generations.... which is not translate into englished yet.

+++Ive never thought about it. Training is more important to me currently. The only books i know of are the one from Chow and Fu , as well as Fus chinese material not translated yet.

as formal training, isnt that anyone who formaly study WCK from the ancient tradition by default has the key elements of its parents?

+++Yes IF its from the Ancestral Tradition.

B

Hendrik

02-25-2007, 05:10 PM

+++No. I told you about it in one of the last emails i sent you. I have never met Grandmaster. I only know the First set, and so that is Basic. But at least i have that to train as a foundation.

Thanks for sharing.

----------------

since you have train in Emei 12 zhuang, if my memory serve, all of your above question had been answered by late Dr. Chow's writing, Dr Chow is the lineage holder of Emei 12 zhuang, . IMHO, I dont see any dangerous ground at all since Dr. Chow writing deal with even advance mind/body/qi activation and handling then these basic of the basic.

+++You miss my point my friend. WHat makes his view correct?? What makes Others views correct?? Who is there to judge who is correct?? Its dangerous because "WOrds" do not convey truth. Only experiance will. -------

Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.

IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible.

----------------------

How would one know that 8 special need to be activated, if one hasnt activated them? As they would be just speculating or taking someone elses word for it. So you have done this??....B

Well, there migh be three answer on how would one know. IMHO,

1, there are plenty of books/writing on the 8 special channel which is not popular or known in the west. So, those who could read the classical chinese be able to learn about these stuffs, what it is likely, what it is not likely, and have a clear picture what is happening. ( while we in the west have no clue about them but speculate or and resist the technology with our clueless logical speculation)

+++Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.

That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.

-------------------------

2, one has a sifu who is experience and know about those stuffs so one could learn about them.
3, one has attained the activation.

+++I agree with both of these. BUt even #2, doesnt do much unless you take what you are taught and actually train it, so you get your own experiance.

Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me.

------------------

as for which one of the above or none of the above is me.
That I hope somedays when you attain your Emei 12 zhuang level 3 (there are many level....) training then do an assesment on me and tell the public my original face.

+++Yes. Many levels. ANd im still working on level 1, so dont hold your breath waiting for me:)

I have plenty of time. even after I die people still can dig out this forum and critics me. hahahaha

See, I dont expect you to respect me. I am happy that you see what reality is somedays. may be I am just a buls****er. hahaha

+++This last ost isnt to be contrary, but to truly question ourselves and be a catalyst for growth. When we stop questioning ourselves and our perceptions, we can fall back into loosing our Clear Vision. I have experianced Completly clear states, but cant maintain it during the day, so i have a superficial development currently.

So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----

I like to elaborate some more here.

If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.

IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.

It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.

IMHO, until One have attain the state one has NO clear vision at all or to be honest it is a totally blind. Thus, it is said, Sifu is the one who lead one into the door.

with all these seems logical and sound great thinking this is a dead trap.

Get a proper and good sifu and following his instruction, stop asking all the question with mind speculation. Otherwise, dont practice, it is going to do more harm then good with all the smart and logical thinking. IMHO. and that is what I have learn from reading late Dr. Chow's and others ancient writing.

ofcorse people dont have to listern to what I said above but if you are on the path to internal. Choose a proper and good sifu, follow his instruction, stop playing smart a$$ until you have your own state attain then and only then do what you like. otherwise, why create trouble for oneself.

Thus, in going inward, a good sifu is everything.

dont believe me? think. why Christ and all the saint and mystics teachers LOVE and Forgive instead of scrutinize youself?

-----------------------

++++Just like when you are questioned on Knowledge of Shaolin, and Chan, and you mention your former Sifu. Is that name dropping ?? Or simply answering the question.

Oh, I must be a bad influence. hahaha.

OK, I give you an answer.
If I have already have the state then I am answering the question.
If I dont have that state then I am name droping.

is that a good answer? hahaha

so, have you attain the state yet? hahaha

Hendrik

02-25-2007, 05:50 PM

For example - Yik Kam family writings may point to Emie 12 jong. Chows book supports the link. Cho Hong Choi Sifu, may have seen the link. Hendrik may have seen the link. HS than does research, on several diffearnt levels including Kuen Kuit, Medical, and comes to a very likely senario in his mind that WCKs snake ancestor is from Ermie Mountain.

BUT - If HS hasnt trained the Emie - Experianced it and gotten some attainment - he has nothing validating the writings of Chow and Yik kam.

Than its only speculation and scholastic nonsence. Than has the WCK SLT been trained using the Emie?? What is attained and does it validate the other info?? -------------B

sure you are right.

and sure everything is based on if the respected HS dont know anything, right? :D

well ask Jim about the scholastic nonsense Hendrik has speculate when he show what hendrik share with him to GM Fu last year. hahaha.

and make sure dont follow hendrik's speculation because what if hendrik is totally wrong and bsing everyone.

follow with your own risk. dont tell me I dont warn you here. hahaha

----------------------------

I dont question the strong link of WCK to Emie Mountain.

BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true.

Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path. -----

sure, you are right logically.

The question is how can one know what is what before having an attainment? I dont question, I go with my sifu's teaching and always posting with Thus, I have heard. hahaha

I dont have an answer currently to how "Internal" WCK was and should be. And still believe in Middle path, which incidently isnt any more generalized than the terms "Internal" and "External" or Soft and Hard - which can be defined 100 differant ways.----- B

What is a middle path? please define in detail until then I have no idea what do you mean.

as for what is Snake powered Crane potential definition with specifics is up in the forum for reading.

As for hard, soft, internal, and external.. well ask Dr. Chow or others who is pioner in the internal art. they set the reference certainly not me.

--------------------------

am I the person who is first to give out the direction about Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane fusion ... based on my mind speculation?

or you have known them before me? In that case, that is great.

+++LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part;) . Mind speculation isnt bad unto itself. Its simply not truth. It can be a valid starting point, which than needs to be validated with experianced and training, as many times Mind Speculation crumbles under the weight of truth. ------B

You see, I am sure love to have my ego boost, but then why do you have to follow my mind speculation ? I might be totally wrong and misleading.

doesnt make sense to follow some one's speculation right? hahaha

I actually have known about White Crane being the parent of WCK 8 years before i met you -ruffly 13 years ago. As an artist and musician i have always seen and felt the mechanics as well as Asthetic connection. I have also known that WCK contained a Snake Boxing system for just as long, and have had a strong opinion that it was from Emie moutain for at least 5 years, as that is my Systems oral tradition.

I had never heard of the Emie 12 Zhuang prior to you. BUt that changes nothing. Mind speculation is mind speculation. Experiance and attainment are Experiance and attainment. ---------B

as I mention above, follow my mind speculation with your own risk? hahaha

sure, with the same logic as yours, if hendrik
study emei 12 zhuang formally with top name but his dan dien is not heat up and Could not handle/activate the Ren Du Mai, then hendrik has zero right?

to the worse , if hendrik have not experience the basic Qi accumulation which is common to all Chinese internal art, and start to make lots of speculation about others right or wrong based on hendrik's self righteous view, that is even misleading right?

so, here again dont follow hendrik's bad habit. hahaha

but you see, I dont go for the path of name droping, State attainment is my preference. One could learn from Miu Shun himself, but if one doestn realized and attain the state. It doesnt mean much at all. IMHHHHO.

+++Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation.

People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation---

True.
and also Depend on who is the audiance.

----------------------

as if I do mind speculation? may be and always.
but it is simple to get to the facts, anyone (you could be one of them since you know emeil 12 zhuang now. ) who has equal or more advance state then me will be able to read my state via my posting . an I welcome for them to critics me based on my writing. I might be full of it. hahahaha.

++++Anyone seeking to interpret ones experiance and attainment via a posting on a forum is someone seeking Ego rubbing from Judging others and is trapped in Mind Speculation mode. Words to not convey the truth of someones thoughts and experiance. They can only point in the general direction. And even than- not always. I also wouldnt say i "Know Emie 12 Posts" I would say " I know Basic Emie training and do my best to train it everyday". I will take the rest of my life to "Know it"-----

Good point,

we are not directing this post about wCK to "I know" post right?

seriously,

what is the basic Emie training ? if you could start another threat and share with us here who has no chance to learn it, it will be great to open everyone's view that will contribute alots.

t_niehoff

02-26-2007, 07:25 AM

Hendrik,
I can see what you are trying to communicate, and appreciate that. Just remember that communication is a two way street. The other person must be open to receiving what you are sending. They have their own agenda.

We *all* have our own ideas, agendas, etc. And we can all communicate them (some better than others). I don't think this is a "communication" issue.

Unfortunately, some already have made up their minds about how things are in their view of the world. Nothing you can say will change that. I agree with you that there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost, but you must share them those who are open to them. As the idiom says "retain when it comes, send away when it goes".

Peace,
Bill

Having an open mind doesn't mean we haven't reached tentative conclusions about things. I don't think Bigfoot exists but if someone were to produce one, my mind would change rather quickly! On the other hand, I also beleive the world isn't flat and I think the evidence for my conclusion is overwhelming. :) It is fine to say "there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost" -- but where is the evidence of that? Anyone can say that. If they are truths, there will be evidence to prove that truth. And proof we can see with our own eyes, not stories, legends, noncombative demonstrations, etc. If these are indeed "ancient truths" let's see them in action. Why is that such a heavy burden? It's not IMO if they are true.

A very simple fact: Our fighting skill level will depend, regardless of our fighting method or martial art, on our training method. Poor training methods will necessarily result in poor development; superior training methods will result in superior results. So instead of trying to guess or theorize what training methods work or don't work, we can tell very easily by looking to results. How many people in the world practice the TCMAs? Millions? How many that haven't adopted the more modern methods of training (who are traditionally trained) can handle themselves with decent level fighters? None. (If anyone believes otherwise, let's see it). Does this support the view that there are "ancient truths" out there?

What it really comes down to is that there are people, who for various reasons, believe things without evidence or in spite of evidence. How can any of us know whether something is true or not? By looking to the evidence. All I am asking Hendrik for is to provide evidence that his claims have merit -- not stories, not theories, not kuit, not argument, not chinese mindsets, etc. Evidence that his traditional model of training works and has produced significant development in fighting skill. In other words, results. Because if they were true, we would expect to see results. The fact that he can't provide any proof of results despite my repeated requests (if he could, don't you think he would?), indicates that he has no evidence to support his claims.

Matrix

02-26-2007, 09:39 PM

We *all* have our own ideas, agendas, etc. And we can all communicate them (some better than others). I don't think this is a "communication" issue. Of course we do. Just don't bring up the swimming analogy any more and I'll be happy. :D

Having an open mind doesn't mean we haven't reached tentative conclusions about things. I don't think Bigfoot exists but if someone were to produce one, my mind would change rather quickly!
No, it does not. However we need to suspend our disbelief long enough to listen, and consider what is being said. Pt's much easier said than done. Too often we tend to be thinking about our counter-position before the person has had a chance to communicate their full position. This seems to be especially true the more we think we "know" someone, since we can jump to conclusions much easier based on our preconceptions.

On the other hand, I also beleive the world isn't flat and I think the evidence for my conclusion is overwhelming. :) It is fine to say "there are some ancient truths that are at risk of being lost" -- but where is the evidence of that? I guess they've been lost. ;)
What I mean is that many so called modern advances have tended to distance us from our connection with our true nature. When I say "ancient truths" I not referring to fighting methods, but rather to the more basic concept of life-force, although there's potentially a connection there as well. The "evidence" seems to indicate that we are all separate entities, that are born, live and die. Is that the full meaning of life? Or is there more to it than that? Are we connected to each other and our environment at a level that is beyond our current ability to perceive? Is there more than we can measure with our scientific devices, or does it simply not exist because we cannot measure it? I'm open to the idea that there is more, while I cannot prove it to you with scientific evidence. I call it faith. You may call it foolishness. I think that in some ways ancient peoples were more connected with their environment. We may have lost this truth, this ability to live in harmony. However, Ancient peoples could also be very brutual and savage, but I'm not sure that we've progressed as much as we'd like to think on that score either.

Unfortunately I have many questions, and very few answers. But I'm sure that you will set me straight - flat earth and Bigfoot not withstanding. ;)

t_niehoff

02-27-2007, 07:01 AM

Of course we do. Just don't bring up the swimming analogy any more and I'll be happy. :D

It's all about making you happy. ;)

No, it does not. However we need to suspend our disbelief long enough to listen, and consider what is being said. Pt's much easier said than done. Too often we tend to be thinking about our counter-position before the person has had a chance to communicate their full position. This seems to be especially true the more we think we "know" someone, since we can jump to conclusions much easier based on our preconceptions.

An open mind doesn't mean we "suspend our disbelief" -- if anything we should remain skeptical and disbelieving. That way, we will require evidence to convince us. This is part of critical thinking. As there is no reliable evidence of Bigfoot, I conclude there is no such creature. I remain doubtful and skeptical until someone can provide sufficient reliable evidence to convince me otherwise. And the same is true for any claim.

I guess they've been lost. ;)

Or they never existed in the first place. People love to romaticize the past.

What I mean is that many so called modern advances have tended to distance us from our connection with our true nature. When I say "ancient truths" I not referring to fighting methods, but rather to the more basic concept of life-force, although there's potentially a connection there as well. The "evidence" seems to indicate that we are all separate entities, that are born, live and die. Is that the full meaning of life? Or is there more to it than that? Are we connected to each other and our environment at a level that is beyond our current ability to perceive? Is there more than we can measure with our scientific devices, or does it simply not exist because we cannot measure it? I'm open to the idea that there is more, while I cannot prove it to you with scientific evidence. I call it faith. You may call it foolishness.

People can believe -- and convince themselves and others -- of all kinds of things on "faith". And your faith can be different than someone else's. But how do we know if any of it is true? Evidence. I'm open to just about any idea -- if someone can back it up with evidence. But I don't leave my mind so open that my sense falls out! When we base our views of the world not on things we know to be true (via evidence) but on ideas we want or hope to be true (faith), we are living in a false fantasy world. If we base important decisions in our lives (medical, health, fighting, etc.) on a fantasy, we will not be making wise decisions (but potentially very harmful ones).

I think that in some ways ancient peoples were more connected with their environment. We may have lost this truth, this ability to live in harmony. However, Ancient peoples could also be very brutual and savage, but I'm not sure that we've progressed as much as we'd like to think on that score either.

You can believe whatever you like -- that doesn't mean there is any truth to it. Maybe you don't care if what you believe is true or not. I do. I will agree with you that our modern world has tended to insulate us against the environment to a greater degree (why we are more comfortable today). How this leads to the notion of "ancient truths" escapes me.

Unfortunately I have many questions, and very few answers. But I'm sure that you will set me straight - flat earth and Bigfoot not withstanding. ;)

My view is that everyone needs to find their own answers and is responsible for finding their own answers, and that takes work -- hard work. Real answers, true answers, to questions don't come from theories, beliefs, stories, noncombative demos, etc. These are not answers, these are not truths. In fact, they get in the way of real truth and the work needed to find those truths. Yip Man said "go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you." Exactly -- let evidence (results) guide you, not beliefs in things you want to be true. Many truths aren't pleasant and comforting. Many truths are counter-intuitive. I talk about sparring/fighting with quality people because that's the only way to *see* the truth for ourselves. By doing that (what we are allegedly training for) we can see if our theories hold water, how effective our training methods really are, etc. If Hendrik's notions produce results, then we should see results; if they don't produce results, then we should expect not to see results. I haven't seen any results.

I have also read fairly extensively on the subject of motor skill development. There has been tons of research into this field in the past 100 years -- including sport/athletic development. This stuff is available to anyone who puts in the work. We have a much better idea of how the human body learns, develops, etc. than did the "ancient chinese" or the "ancient europeans" for that matter. Those finding do not support Hendrik's views. But that's not surprising since Hendrik's views are based on a worldview that is essentally false.

So, while Hendrik can go on expounding on his theories and stories, the fact is that he can provide no evidence to support them (can't show they really work) and that those theories are contradicted by scientific research. In that light, how open do you think I should be to his theories?

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 08:40 AM

So, while Hendrik can go on expounding on his theories and stories, the fact is that he can provide no evidence to support them (can't show they really work) and that those theories are contradicted by scientific research. In that light, how open do you think I should be to his theories?------

Here is the third time I CHALLENGE YOU

at ANY TIME ANY PLACE

to bring your MMA candidate or ANY ONE IN WCK who is neutral, Bring your team of Scientist, Bring your Biofeedback machine, and I coach the candidate with the activation of DU and REN Mai, Ancient Chinese method, and then Let the Scientist taking data with the Biofeedback Machine and See what is improve what is not. What is better Handle what is not?

AND Ofcorse you need to sign NDA because technology is not free.

See, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.

In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.

Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.

If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.

leejunfan

02-27-2007, 11:19 AM

Hendrik.....

Here's a challenge I am posing on YOU.

Couch a fighter to a championship with your methods ;)

See, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.

In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.

Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.

If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.

The "measurable data" you are refering to is measured everyday in the ring, cage, Law Enforcement, security and more. They are actually OUT IN THE FIELD testing this stuff in real time. Not hooking up to "modern technology" like that friggen retarded show "Fight Science" and seeing who has the stronger kick, punch or whatever. Who do they get to represent Kung Fu????? a Wushu forms champion.... OH.... MY..... LORD! Yeah.... they're biased :rolleyes: Might as well get a Ballet dancer.

Like one VERY wise Sifu said to me once..... "People talk talk talk.... the one still standing says anything he wants."

t_niehoff

02-27-2007, 11:21 AM

Here is the third time I CHALLENGE YOU

at ANY TIME ANY PLACE

to bring your MMA candidate or ANY ONE IN WCK who is neutral, Bring your team of Scientist, Bring your Biofeedback machine, and I coach the candidate with the activation of DU and REN Mai, Ancient Chinese method, and then Let the Scientist taking data with the Biofeedback Machine and See what is improve what is not. What is better Handle what is not?

AND Ofcorse you need to sign NDA because technology is not free.

Improve exactly what? His fighting skills? A scientisit with a biofeedback machine can't see that.

I'll tell you what, I'll be visiting Robert in LA (along with Alan, Dave, etc.) in June 2008 -- why don't you come and we'll take you to Eddie Millis' camp where you can show us how well this training works? We'll videotape it and put it up on the web so you can show the world how well it works. Deal?

See, Terence, Talk is cheap and making claim is also cheap when it become a tool for shake of arguement and debating in a word only realm where no REALITY connected to it.

Hendrik, you are the one making the claims -- that this "lost technology" works (that Bigfoot exists). So you need to provide the evidence. Yes, talk is cheap and that's all you are providing. Let's see some results.

In fact, I dont even care for if it is ancient or chinese or modern or name droping. That is the reason I propose to use MODERN TECHNOLOGY to take a measurable, observable data.

Talk is Cheap without MEASURABLE DATA.

If you intend to continous to make claims. Make sure you have measureable DATA before you even speak.

Exactly Hendrik -- so where is your measurable data? If you say this stuff produces good fighting skills, let's see those fighting skills for ourselves. Let's see how good of results they produce?. My claim is that it is all nonsense. And since we can't find anyone in the world who uses your "ancient chinese technology" that has significant fighting skills, it would seem the evidence is on my side. ;)

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 11:41 AM

Here's a challenge I am posing on YOU.

Couch a fighter to a championship with your methods ;) ------------

I take your challenge here and settle it here.

in fighting Championship case, I am a Kyokushin; and the method I use will be, Mas Oyama's method which has proved itself to generate so many world class fighters.
So, there is no need for me to prove anything which has been proven many and many time in the past 40 years.

and how is your method stand up compare with Mas Oyama's the Kyokushin way for passed 40years? or have you even join one K1 type of KO Open? if not what is your measurement?

The "measurable data" you are refering to is measured everyday in the ring, cage, Law Enforcement, security and more. They are actually OUT IN THE FIELD testing this stuff in real time. Not hooking up to "modern technology" like that friggen retarded show "Fight Science" and seeing who has the stronger kick, punch or whatever. Who do they get to represent Kung Fu????? a Wushu forms champion.... OH.... MY..... LORD! Yeah.... they're biased :rolleyes: Might as well get a Ballet dancer. ---------

The measurable data I am refering and define, In case , missed it for any reason :D, is Heart Rate, Heart Beat Rythm Vairation, EEG. Those are scientifically proven to show one's mind and body condition under different condition.

That is mesaurabale, justified able data which shows one's basic body/mind condition.

and if we cant even handle it in static condition, how can we have handling in dynamics?

Your suggestion needs to base on your Basic condition handling, how can you know if your training works to progress futher into fighting...etc? if you dont know your basic condition handling measurement data?

For example, disregard of how great a car driver you are, but you drive a crappy car, how could you race with those who has posrche or BMW engine? even worse if you have no idea about how to rate or what is a car's engine.

So, the Modern Technology can tell you what is your car and its engine is about.

BTW:

you think those peak peformers who train with heart rate monitor ... are stupid? hahahaha

Like one VERY wise Sifu said to me once..... "People talk talk talk.... the one still standing says anything he wants." -----

Seems to be a great advise for you.

Doesnt that applied to you alots? :D

chusauli

02-27-2007, 11:42 AM

As a person who has grown up in 2 cultures, I see things differently.

1) I think critical thinking is very important, no matter where you come from. If you don't agree, just agree to disagree. Don't insist on your POV.

2) I believe in Qi, as I am a Chinese Medicine practitioner and martial artist. But Qi is not like the Jedi Force. The cultivation of Qi in the pathways of the 8 extra channels is valuable to health and cultivation, and is a good martial artist's training.

3) Although science is a wonderful paradigm, it is fairly young and is just one worldview. Science likes to decry other worldviews as "wrong" , but this is mostly due to ethnocentricity and ignorance.

4) Chinese medicine is based on the Chinese metaphysical paradigm and takes another world view. Chinese medicine is very practical and has benefits to all people. Even animals like horses, cats and dogs (who probably have their own worldview) get benefit from acupuncture and herbals.

5) People talking in forums are expressing from their own beliefs and worldviews, and freedom of speech is protected in the USA.

6) When the ego gets involved, tempers will flare.

7) Guys, lighten up. Everyone is just having a chat.

8) The Yik Kam Wing Chun Siu Lien Tao system as preserved from Cho Hung Choi and Hendrik Santo is a legitimate system and has Kuen Kuit which stems from the 1800's and a proven lineage. Since it is so rare, its a good opportunity to see what our ancestors left us. It has its roots on the Red Boat Opera, and basically sees the parents as Fujian White Crane and Emei (correct pinyin spelling) 12 Zhuang. The Emei 12 Zhuang stanzas in some ways are almost identical to the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao stanzas. That is verifiable and written fact.

9) Fighting ability is relative to person. Study hard and realistically, you will have skill, but that has little to do with arguing or denying relevant points of discussion here. Many times, its not the size of the dog that matters, but the size of the fight in the dog that matters.

10) What is there to really argue over? You think you got problems? I've got many patients with Cancer, Lupus and Parkinson's. Try being in their situation.

Just my $0.02 regarding this thread.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD
chusauli@hotmail.com

leejunfan

02-27-2007, 01:25 PM

Robert,

Great post!

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 03:41 PM

Improve exactly what? His fighting skills? A scientisit with a biofeedback machine can't see that. --------

Unless you dont read my post there is no reason to ask these question above.

I'll tell you what, I'll be visiting Robert in LA (along with Alan, Dave, etc.) in June 2008 -- why don't you come and we'll take you to Eddie Millis' camp where you can show us how well this training works? We'll videotape it and put it up on the web so you can show the world how well it works. Deal? -----

1, Robert has just post his experience.
So, I dont see there is a need to show anything to you. Ask your sifu about chinese Qi if you are still learn WCK. I rest my case.

2. doing a scheduling for more then a year for me who live in the Silicon Valley means that is not serious and not going to make it. so why even bother ask?

3, it seems that you no longer doing WCK. So, why are you here in this WCK forum?

4, up to now, your tactic is always, you dont have result.... so I am not going to read you post any more.

Thanks for sharing and nope our path is different.

Good luck

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 03:56 PM

Ok,

we have discuss lots about the activation of Ren and Du medirians.

Now, I would like to share what is it. so when one does SLT/SNT one will know what Nature means.

Honestly, This type of practice has its risk if not being doing it right. One needs an experience sifu to coach and make correction if anything is side track.

However, in my decades of research I have found a western reserach proven teaching which is fit to the most basic begineer step of activation of the Ren and Du medirian. Which could let us to have some entry level experience and benifit safely.

The teaching here is the basic of the handling of Ren and Du Mai.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780553374438

http://www.energybreath.com/Pages/vibrance1.html

pay attention to the breathing and to the spine handling.

Neigong and Qigong needed both handling. Those who do Nim Lik will benifit alots because the spine is not a fix stuff. Thus, Dai Gong needs to be naturally adapting to the spine's movements.

in fact, even when one is doing the heaven character zhuang of emei 12 zhuang. the instruction of the teaching above also applied.

-----------------

ABOUT THIS BOOK

Conscious Breathing draws on more than twenty years of research and practice to present a simple yet comprehensive program that can be used every day to improve energy, mental clarity, and physical health.

As the essential life-force of the body, the breath influences how we feel on every level.

But many traditional breathing programs are limited by esoteric or cultlike elements. Pioneering therapist Gay Hendricks has refined the most important practices into a mainstream healing tool that can provide dramatic benefits--ranging from lowered blood pressure and pain reduction to elimination of depression and anxiety--in as little as ten minutes a day.

At the core of the book are eight key breathing exercises, fully illustrated, with step-by-step instructions, plus the "short form" ten-minute breathing program. Additional chapters provide breathing techniques for special concerns, including: Breathing to aid in trauma release and recovery from addictions. Treatment of asthma and other respiratory problems. .......... Improved concentration and stamina in sports.

------------------------------------------

Hope that this information help you to make good progress in you SLT/SNT training.

Have an excellent basic body/mind/breathing and a Good kind heart and the rest will manifest naturally.

Enjoy

byond1

02-27-2007, 08:02 PM

My comments follow with ++++

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sure you are right.

and sure everything is based on if the respected HS dont know anything, right?

well ask Jim about the scholastic nonsense Hendrik has speculate when he show what hendrik share with him to GM Fu last year. hahaha.

and make sure dont follow hendrik's speculation because what if hendrik is totally wrong and bsing everyone.

follow with your own risk. dont tell me I dont warn you here. hahaha

+++Now you are getting defensive. Your slipping from your "State". Keep things Clear. This isnt about Emie 12 jong and white crane being the parents of WCK. As that is something i accept. This is about how WCK should be trained, and how much comes from each parent. Beyond that, you have stated something. It was "WCK is meant to be Internal". Now i simple asked if you had actually trained the Emie 12 jong, learned it from a teacher, as well as applied those teachings to WCK, and had personaly validated your speculation with real time training and experiance. I have asked nothing unreasonable.

I dont care what Jim has to say about it. What i care about is if you have validated your mind speculation with realtime experiance. If you have, than it shouldnt be a problem for you to say, "yes i have trained it and thats why i have tried to share it" or you could say "yes im speculating but i "think" im right." - Because my real time training and experiance doesnt support your speculation. So, if your training in real time and experiance does support it, than perhaps you training is deeper and perhaps i need to renovate and would try your approach. But i wont play with my training without care and caution. Hence all i asked was if you had experianced it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"BUt when we say WCK needs to be practised a certain way or was practised a certain way by the ancestors, we need Experiance to know if thats true.

Than once you have attainment, you can help lead others down the proper path"-BS

sure, you are right logically.

The question is how can one know what is what before having an attainment? I dont question, I go with my sifu's teaching and always posting with Thus, I have heard. hahaha

+++So before you had attainment how did you "See" your sifus' teachings were correct?? What state where you in that you could verify his State?? You couldnt so you went on faith like me?

My sifus life mirrors mine. He practised a differant version of WCK, that was from HK. Things didnt make complete sence. He met Sum Nung, and saw and felt and had all the questions he had - nswered , and so changed systems. I have had the exact same experiance. I started the training via faith in his realtime experiance. He shared enough with me, that i saw the truth, and gave it a chance. I trained it. And have now developed, and have validated the teachings.

And there are numerous layers of "state". I have some attainment but its limited. As i see you are in. Slipping in and out. Not maintaining always. As the truth state, ego wouldnt exist.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is a middle path? please define in detail until then I have no idea what do you mean.

as for what is Snake powered Crane potential definition with specifics is up in the forum for reading.

As for hard, soft, internal, and external.. well ask Dr. Chow or others who is pioner in the internal art. they set the reference certainly not me.

+++You miss my point. Dr.Chow has 1 opinion of probably 10,000 on internal training. Is Wudang correct? Is Ermie correct? is Chan seng feng correct? Is esoteric buddhism correct? Taoism correct? TCM correct? All correct? None correct?

And i already explain "Middle path" -
its a core concept from the Iching. I would think you were familiar with it. Its avoiding extremes. Applied to training. Nothing more, nothing less. Doubtfull my words could convey the truth to you or anyone. Perhaps you need to try training it with a Sifu who follows it. The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking.

--------------------------

LOL. Ok i can stroke your ego, were friends. Yes - You shared the Emie "12 zhaung" White Crane fusion with me. And it was , i would say mind specluation on yours and Cho Hong Choi sifus part . Mind speculation isnt bad unto itself. Its simply not truth. It can be a valid starting point, which than needs to be validated with experianced and training, as many times Mind Speculation crumbles under the weight of truth. ------B

You see, I am sure love to have my ego boost, but then why do you have to follow my mind speculation ? I might be totally wrong and misleading.

doesnt make sense to follow some one's speculation right? hahaha

+++The answer to your question is in the above post. First i dont have to follow anything. I have already followed a path that has proven itself to me. You, have posted and made a statement. WCK is meant to be practised Internal. You than defined Internal as Activating the 8 special merridians and Breath and Chi work. I see nothing wrong with your speculation, as that is frequiently the starting point, your speculation may be from a point of clairity. I am willing to try something, if you actually trained it and know for a fact your speculation was correct. If not i wont gamble with my art.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as I mention above, follow my mind speculation with your own risk? hahaha

+++Thanks for answering my question. Now i know to tread carefully.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sure, with the same logic as yours, if hendrik
study emei 12 zhuang formally with top name but his dan dien is not heat up and Could not handle/activate the Ren Du Mai, then hendrik has zero right?

+++Your experiance would either mean 1) You didnt train properly or long enough or 2)the teachings are not valid.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to the worse , if hendrik have not experience the basic Qi accumulation which is common to all Chinese internal art, and start to make lots of speculation about others right or wrong based on hendrik's self righteous view, that is even misleading right?
so, here again dont follow hendrik's bad habit. hahaha

+++Thanks for the help. Things are much clearer.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name dropping is pointless. But if someone asks - So you know WCK , who did you learn from ? and you say. From Sifu "" . Thats called polite conversation.
People also want to know why one is qualified to make statements. ITs normal - in all parts of life, we have to give our referances. True Name Dropping is ego based and more mind speculation---BS

True.
and also Depend on who is the audiance.

+++True to a point.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good point,

we are not directing this post about wCK to "I know" post right?

+++I dont know. Thats what my entire several posts were attempting to figure out. Instead of assuming i asked you. As "i know" only comes from attainment from correct practise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.

IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible.

+++I definatly view myself as a beginer. But that has little to do, with asking your teacher if they actually have trained what they are trying to teach. Why would i want to learn from a swim instructor who has never been in the Water? Why is asking viewed as negative? This isnt the 1700s. We are allowed to question respectfully.

0----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

byond1

02-27-2007, 08:03 PM

Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.-BS

That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.

+++Any how does one know they have attainement and not "lost in illusion" - The mind can be a terrible thing to taste. How many classics were written by those in Attaiment state?? How can the reader know which classic was written by an author in the attainment state?? Especialy if the reader is Not Attained but trying to find the classic that will provide the proper training that if followed properly will lead to the attainment state.?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me.

+++So what would that do for your attainment?? Just because you saw someone demo - you wouldnt simply than have attainment. And you cant "See" what is going on inside and Internal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----BS

I like to elaborate some more here.
If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.
IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.
It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.

+++Im not sure what culture you grew up in, but in America if you dont question you get manipulated.
You simply choose to see the negative of the act of questioning. I dont. I see the positive. Those who dont want you to question are those who dont have the answers. or are scared of others having the answers.

There is a distinct differance in the use of the Upper mind to calculate things and to process data, than to be lost in the thought stream.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMHO, until One have attain the state one has NO clear vision at all or to be honest it is a totally blind. Thus, it is said, Sifu is the one who lead one into the door.

+++differant levels to the state. SOme may have 1 eye open. As the saying goes in the land of the blind, the 1 eyed man is king.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

with all these seems logical and sound great thinking this is a dead trap.
Get a proper and good sifu and following his instruction, stop asking all the question with mind speculation. Otherwise, dont practice, it is going to do more harm then good with all the smart and logical thinking. IMHO. and that is what I have learn from reading late Dr. Chow's and others ancient writing.

+++I already have studied with several good Sifu and continue to, and they disagree with your ideas complelty.
I myself am still open minded and havnt closed my mind to other possibilities about Training. And again i dont disagree nor question Emie mountain Snake boxing and Yong Chun County White crane as being the parents of WCK. But my expereriance in training doesnt support WCK being an Internal system. In stead its a hybred approach.

So dont ask questions?? If i dont ask how can i find a Sifu who follows your idea of the correct internal path?? What if most Sifu follow the path my Teachers do? There by your own statement would suggest that they are not a "Good Sifu" becasue they dont follow the Internal path you suggest is "good".

I would be carefull about mind specultion without actually having the experiance to substantiate. This can also be harmfull, because if we lead someone down a path that may or may not be legitamate, we are responsible for hurting them and will suffer the karma. WCK isnt Tai Chi nor should be practised like Tai Chi. Mixing arts is dangerous as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ofcorse people dont have to listern to what I said above but if you are on the path to internal. Choose a proper and good sifu, follow his instruction, stop playing smart a$$ until you have your own state attain then and only then do what you like. otherwise, why create trouble for oneself. Thus, in going inward, a good sifu is everything.dont believe me? think. why Christ and all the saint and mystics teachers LOVE and Forgive instead of scrutinize youself?

+++The mystic teachers were not MA teachers. Im not on the path of internal training with my WCK. I practised Basic Ermie and WCK. My WCK is practised with the training that YKS and Sum Nung standaradized. My results are wonderfull. If you percieve me "Playing a smart ass" than you really have less attainment than i thought, as that is left field from my true intent in posting.

1)Enjoying conversation with fellow WCKers

2)Growth via the process of discusion and analysis

3)Possibly learning new training methods, from someone who has TRIED THEM OUT AND ATTAINED Clear States and is able to maintain them all the time. If not The person is in no position to teach anything.

-----------------------

Oh, I must be a bad influence. hahaha.

OK, I give you an answer.
If I have already have the state then I am answering the question.
If I dont have that state then I am name droping.

is that a good answer? hahaha

+++Yes. Its a really great answer and makes the most sence of any words yet put down in this thread.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so, have you attain the state yet? hahaha

+++As i have honestly mentioned, i have attained certain levels of the state, but cant maintain it all the time. Hence the attainment isnt deep enough.

Brian

Matrix

02-27-2007, 09:15 PM

It's all about making you happy. ;)Finally!! Something we both agree on. :D

An open mind doesn't mean we "suspend our disbelief" -- if anything we should remain skeptical and disbelieving.
I think I'm seeing where we're having a disconnect. If you remain skeptical you kill the idea before you've had a chance to really think about it as objectively as possible. Skepticism and disbelief tend to be based on old paradigms, so different points of view are quickly killed before they have a chance.

People love to romaticize the past. They also love to romanticize the future and sometimes even the present.

And your faith can be different than someone else's. But how do we know if any of it is true?The fact that we have different ideas of faith is irrelavent. There is more than one path. Feel free to label it whatever you like, it changes nothing.

Anyways, we've had this discussion before, a little while back. So I'm going to drop it here. Good luck with your hard evidence, and don't hurt Hendrik too badly when you meet his challenge. Be merciful. ;)

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 10:33 PM

To cut things short, here I cut away all personal stuffs and get direct to the technical.

+++You miss my point. Dr.Chow has 1 opinion of probably 10,000 on internal training. Is Wudang correct? Is Ermie correct? is Chan seng feng correct? Is esoteric buddhism correct? Taoism correct? TCM correct? All correct? None correct?-----

I dont miss your point.

There is NO contradiction and NO confusion in Chinese internal training.

There are 3 keys which applied to ALL Chinese Internal art.

all cultivator in the Chinese Internal art know these three are the basic, process and these are also the ultimate Goal.

Eventhought different styles has its own uniqueness however the 3 keys applied to all.

And i already explain "Middle path" - its a core concept from the Iching.----------

Nope you didnt explain.

Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.

Look at the Hexagon combination, there is no such thing in the Hexagon as 5 and 5 combination. Check it out.

and the best state in IChing hexagram is Ch'ien or Modesty

http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex15.html

even in this hexagram, there is only one Yang (nine) and other five are Yin (six) So what is Middle path?

I would think you were familiar with it. Its avoiding extremes.-----------

I am familiar with Iching however not familiar with your view on IChing.

what is extreme? what is not extreme? Look at the best Hexagram isnt it has only one Yang and 5 Yin? isnt this an extreme?

Not to mention the
Ch'ien or The Creative is an all Yang
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex1.html

and K'un or The Receptive are all Yin.
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex2.html

see for yourself, what is middle path?

Applied to training. Nothing more, nothing less.---------

Again, the combination of Hexagon :
9 and 1 = 10
8 and 2 =10
7 and 3 = 10
6 and 4 = 10.

all equal to 10
So, which is nothing more nothing less?

Doubtfull my words could convey the truth to you or anyone. Perhaps you need to try training it with a Sifu who follows it. -----

I take you as we are from different culture and Challenging me is a part of your believe . So, it is ok to make all the assumption as you speculate.

The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking. ----

This is a very generalization where not even entering the door. This is the most dangerous assumption made be it in the east or west.

+++The answer to your question is in the above post. First i dont have to follow anything. I have already followed a path that has proven itself to me.

You, have posted and made a statement.
WCK is meant to be practised Internal. You than defined Internal as Activating the 8 special merridians and Breath and Chi work.

I see nothing wrong with your speculation, as that is frequiently the starting point, your speculation may be from a point of clairity. I am willing to try something, if you actually trained it and know for a fact your speculation was correct. If not i wont gamble with my art. ------------- B

You sure dont have to follow anything or proven anything.

I am also dont have to prove anything. and what I post here is just the basic of Chinese Internal training basic. one could call that speculation, ONe could take it, one could dump it, that is totally fine with me. Different people different stroke.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great idea.
I certainly miss your point.

IMHO, your point is certainly different then mine, See, I look at myself as just a beginer who isnot in the position to question that to Dr. Chow. I am just in the position of trying to learn as much from him if possible. --HS

+++I definatly view myself as a beginer. But that has little to do, with asking your teacher if they actually have trained what they are trying to teach. Why would i want to learn from a swim instructor who has never been in the Water? Why is asking viewed as negative? This isnt the 1700s. We are allowed to question respectfully.------------

we are sure from different culture. and my Chinese Internal art sifu including the late Cho Hong Choy or Cho WCK arent swim instructor. at least all the sifus I have met rather I am shut up and train 2 hours a day until if I reach a certain state. otherwise I have no idea how to even ask question. Thus, the Chinese called it Xua Wen or Learning to Ask question. ONe needs to learn before could ask sensible questions.

and also, what is questioning respectfully have different interpretation.
So, we have different experience.

Hendrik

02-27-2007, 11:37 PM

Again, conflicting information. Many differant classics with many differant views. Which is correct?? Only experiance will work out for one, what is what not "Words" or reading a book.-BS

That depend on if the person has the state and internal attainment. Nothing is fixed.-- HS

+++Any how does one know they have attainement and not "lost in illusion" - The mind can be a terrible thing to taste. How many classics were written by those in Attaiment state?? How can the reader know which classic was written by an author in the attainment state?? Especialy if the reader is Not Attained but trying to find the classic that will provide the proper training that if followed properly will lead to the attainment state.?-----

That is the reason one need an experience sifu. In my experience, and only mine, be it my sifu from TaiChi, NeiGong,..... all teaches me the three essential basic. Then they teaches the uniqueness of their style.

There is nothing ambiguity. There is nothing left to mind speculate.

Everything is clear and non contraditory.

The different is say Shao Lin Yi Ying Ying start the training with activating the Lung Medirians. The emei 12 zhuang Start with the little Yang medirian... the motion might be different but everything follow the three keys of Chinese internal cultivation.

Sure. but then how many really will activate thier medirians?
if all does then how come the art can be lost? hahaha..
I am satisfied if I could see a sifu demo for me. ------HS

+++So what would that do for your attainment?? Just because you saw someone demo - you wouldnt simply than have attainment. And you cant "See" what is going on inside and Internal.

at least one have seen the real thing once.

that way, one would not mislead oneself , not mislead others from book learning mind speculation.

without going through this step how is one going to truely learn?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we must always scrutinize in a postive manner ourselves. -----BS

I like to elaborate some more here.
If I may comment this is a totally wrong attitude and wrong mind set for internal traiining. It doesnt work in real internal art practice. this is a dead trap in internal training and meditation.
IMHO all these above introduce doubt. and once Doubt is introduce into one's mind, one is in trouble especially those who train in advance Internal art. beside the mind has no idea what is going on with the realm of AWARENESS which is beyond it. So, this is a dead trap, trap by one's own mind.
It is said, buddha is here kill the buddha, Demon is here kill the demon with the sword of wisdom. practitional got into trouble alots when one has this type of mind set.

+++Im not sure what culture you grew up in, but in America if you dont question you get manipulated.
You simply choose to see the negative of the act of questioning. I dont. I see the positive. Those who dont want you to question are those who dont have the answers. or are scared of others having the answers.

There is a distinct differance in the use of the Upper mind to calculate things and to process data, than to be lost in the thought stream. ---B

The reason I purposely elaborate here is because

as it said,
creating karma and cultivating internal is a totally opposite path.

Mind is an instrument of creation, one could use the mind to create karma whether it is good or bad.

internal Cultivation is the path to return to the origin or infinite, or Let Go Let God. So there is not cultural different be it in the west or in the east. Same.

The AWARENESS could KNOW but the mind cannot percieve this path, one needs to evoke the AWARENESS. Until then one better off following the sifu. otherwise, dont train.

INternal Cultivation is to release every thoughts, good or bad, lower or UPPER , only when the mind is quiet then the path surface.

if one is so concern about "you dont question you get manipulated. " and calculation, then one cannot train the internal path because training internal path is about Let Go Let God, or DAo mimic the Natural or as in the Emei 12 zhuang clasical said " one spontaneously following the Nature.."

even in EEG, if one cannot let go one's thought and quiet down the mind, one's is not going to get into Alfa state or any deep awareness state. without going to Alfa state one is not going to experience what one doesnt aware of in the beta state.

further more,
the basic of internal training is similar be it east, west, or now using modern technology.

Thus, today, one cannot lie about one's internal training. hook one up with the meter and one will see how far one could go. you want to check basic Dan Dien breathing? hook up the HRV. you want to check quiet mind state? hook up the EEG. you want to know if one is loose enough? hook up the temperature sensing.....

IMHO I rather talk measurement with modern machine then formal training because until one could measure the data, even if one learn from Damo of Shao Lin himself , it doesnt mean a thing. one might have no clue about attainment.

WCK isnt Tai Chi nor should be practised like Tai Chi. Mixing arts is dangerous as well.----

WCK is not Tai Chi but they share the 3 keys of all Chinese internal art.

Taichi also activate the 8 medirians but with different sequence. Where WCK first activate the Ren and Du. Look at GM TST's teaching. That is the teaching of activating the Ren and Du. These are all facts. you sure dont have to take it. But it is facts.

just some thoughts.

Hendrik

02-28-2007, 12:35 AM

I would be busy at work. so, would not be able to reply post for next few weeks.

best Regards

shaolin_allan

02-28-2007, 03:55 PM

as I have said before in other posts, many styles include aspects of internal and external styles. Many blocks in both northern and southern are meant to redirect and deflect force away from yourself. In many so called 'external' styles in their advanced stages begin to develop good internal aspects such as aikido. It's all about the style,location,and sifu. Everyone is different, and everyone concentrates more on different aspects as they teach. Just know what you want in an art and go find it.

byond1

03-01-2007, 09:46 PM

To cut things short, here I cut away all personal stuffs and get direct to the technical.

+++Personal is important, if it relates to ones experiance, in whatever one is talking about, or is trying to express to others.-

I dont miss your point.
There is NO contradiction and NO confusion in Chinese internal training.
There are 3 keys which applied to ALL Chinese Internal art.
all cultivator in the Chinese Internal art know these three are the basic, process and these are also the ultimate Goal.
Eventhought different styles has its own uniqueness however the 3 keys applied to all.

+++Okay. I disagree. I have read many classics, from a very wide range of Chinese Internal and External Arts. If everyone used the exact same 3 keys or core information, there wouldnt be a need for so many variations and differant system approachs to Training.

My study of Man's esoteric history and truth, has proven to me that, there is a common system to all ancient man, that is imbeded in the ancient Numeric Alphabet systems, With only miner cultural differances. It took me directly learning and experiancing Esoteric Taoism, Hermetics, Gnostism (true Christiantiy), Chaldean Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Egyptian Kabala, Shugendo, Yamabushi, Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism, Theosophy of Blavatsky and Emie mountain, to understand the Common system. This system is the Operating system and hand book for the Human "Machine", and also includes mans true history and evolution, which includes the various Root races and sub race development.

"Internal" Kung Fu has parts of this system. But its extremly fragmented, imo. And each C.M.A system has differant components intact. But most dont contain all of the parts as a whole. Emie Mountain is one that probably does contain all the components, but you would have to be an actualy Monk to be trasmited the entire system. And to say there is a common core concept across all Chinese Internal Arts is just not true, IMO. But im willing to learn more, and let go of my current perception, if there is enough supporting evidence.

I wouldnt call any of the above "Internal" but "Spiritual" systems of evolution for man to evolve into what he should be or "Is". Man is a microcosm of the Macrocosm. All of creation is within the Human Body as is the entire process of creation. All other root races that man is related to are contained within the various stages of the birth cycle. As such There is only 1 in truth - Micro and Macro are only 1. Yin, Yang and the Son/Man are only 1.
And in training for spiritual development, we move from the many, and gradualy "Hack away" fragmentation, until we get back to the most simple and core of everything, which "Sung" is a very important component of.
Man contains the 3 pure ones/Holy trinity, which contains Body, Soul, and Spirit as the major "demarcations" (which really are not). The soul has 2 aspects. The Upper and the Lower. If the Upper is evolved and unions with the Spirit/Shen, that is the "Marriage of the bride groom" - jesus spoke about or Internal Sexual alchemy talks about. This is the Male and Female energies becoming 1.

I dont agree currently that WCK has Emie's entire spiritual system imbeded in it. I think it has parts that were Fused with White Crane. If one wants the 9 level Ladder they need the Complete Emie System, Not WCK. IF one practise WCK as Emie, you are doing a localized evolution WCK method.

Nope you didnt explain.

+++Its ok not to understand my answer. That doesnt mean, you were not given an answer.

Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.

+++I disagree. Harmony and Balance are never in extreme unbalanced states, which is what one would have to be in, to not follow the Middle path (which is my paraphrasing of the idea). Therefore Harmony and Change with perfect balance still only ends up with 1 whole. And than...nothing. You think Heaven and Earth are 2?? Im sorry, they are not. They are parts of a Whole that are not meant to be pulled apart with disregard to the entire context. Just as the Iching also maps the DNA - The context, and how every thing relates and interpenetrates is of importance.

Look at the Hexagon combination, there is no such thing in the Hexagon as 5 and 5 combination. Check it out.
and the best state in IChing hexagram is Ch'ien or Modesty
ttp://littlestcat.com/iching/hex15.html
even in this hexagram, there is only one Yang (nine) and other five are Yin (six) So what is Middle path?

+++Your ideas of Seperation, and Dichotomy is something i dont agree with it. That is the same thing LIbnitz did to the IChing when he created the Binary system, from his perception evidently it was logical. You are looking at broken down frozen pieces of something that is Perfected, and Balanced and flows lilke water. So 5 grams of salt in that small splash from the Ocean, and so there is no middle/Harmony to The Ocean. ?!?!??? No middle in the center of a Huricane??

I am familiar with Iching however not familiar with your view on IChing.

+++Thats obvious, but im not familar with using the term Internal to represent spiritual training. I suppose its "Logical".

what is extreme? what is not extreme? Look at the best Hexagram isnt it has only one Yang and 5 Yin? isnt this an extreme?
Not to mention the
Ch'ien or The Creative is an all Yang
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex1.html
and K'un or The Receptive are all Yin.
http://littlestcat.com/iching/hex2.html
see for yourself, what is middle path?

+++I cant give you the perception to see byond your limited dichotomy of something that isnt meant to be Dichotomied. No! no extremes. Its all 1. Its a Huge macrocosmic "Ocean" that you cant force into your little compartments. Again, what you are saying is right in a "Logic" Sence. But makes no sence when you look at the Tao with "Shin Shin Shin Gan"

I take you as we are from different culture and Challenging me is a part of your believe . So, it is ok to make all the assumption as you speculate.

+++Well i take it from your culture or you personaly view anyone who asks a question as " challenging you" IE something Negative. Thats an assumtion and speculation on your part.
To me, Questioning is very healthy and positive. When one is ignorant, one asks. And If one says "i know the truth - Here it is" - Than you can expect that, if your audiance is Westerners, you should give your referances, if you expect to me taken seriously with the end result of people accepting your help and mentoring.

And there is no negative intent in anything within this thread. i was just seeing what would come about in conversation with some Catalyst added to the mix, instead of repeating the same info . Nothing more.

The training would include Tendon training, along side breath, and Chi Work, as well as Programing in the initial stages or what you refer to as Soaking. ----BS

This is a very generalization where not even entering the door. This is the most dangerous assumption made be it in the east or west.

+++You assume , that is the entire scope of what i am refering to? You assume im in a place where im allowed, by my teachers ,to spill out my entire training for the entertainment of someone trying to prove the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo?? and or spiritual training that is common to most ancient cultures. Those are a few things that need to be trained, with none of the training explained, and no order to the items listed.

You sure dont have to follow anything or proven anything.

I am also dont have to prove anything. and what I post here is just the basic of Chinese Internal training basic. one could call that speculation, ONe could take it, one could dump it, that is totally fine with me. Different people different stroke.

+++You dont have to prove anything. If you want people to actually try the training, that you are suggesting, it is not unreasonable to explain to people, your own training and experiance, and validate you have trained what you are suggesting is the "Truth about training".
People wont gamble with their WCK training, especialy altering it in a major way, without knowing the person, knows what they are actually talking about. This shouldnt be insulting. This is simply fact. Im surprised you were not more sensitive to it, living in the West as long as you have.

IMO, you have helped pioneer WCK research, and have helped surface alot of rare treasures. BUt that is the Roots and History of WCK. Now we are talking what is or isnt trained. This is very very serious and b-Yond a Hobby of mine. I dont take our system lightly. There is so much localized evolution, i think currently its unclear what ISNT Localized evolution. You say Internal is the truth about WCk training. Or is it? Perhaps that is a localized evolution, as Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal and all focused on Yik Gang.

B

byond1

03-01-2007, 10:04 PM

we are sure from different culture. and my Chinese Internal art sifu including the late Cho Hong Choy or Cho WCK arent swim instructor. at least all the sifus I have met rather I am shut up and train 2 hours a day until if I reach a certain state. otherwise I have no idea how to even ask question. Thus, the Chinese called it Xua Wen or Learning to Ask question. ONe needs to learn before could ask sensible questions.

and also, what is questioning respectfully have different interpretation.
So, we have different experience.

+++Yes. Plus i dont have alot of the Cultural condition most have. I dont have to conform to orthodox society. I also dont have exoteric religion conditioning like most so, hence i have a differant perception of things than most Herd type people.
I never mentioned CHC was a swiming instructor. That statement was made to clairify something. And that is, if you go to learn how to swim, would you learn from someone who had never been in the water??? So i asked you if you had ever been in the water.
And you have finnaly answered my question, when you mention Xua Wen. If that was mentioned initialy, i wouldnt have had anymore questions.

That is the reason one need an experience sifu. In my experience, and only mine, be it my sifu from TaiChi, NeiGong,..... all teaches me the three essential basic. Then they teaches the uniqueness of their style.
There is nothing ambiguity. There is nothing left to mind speculate.
Everything is clear and non contraditory.
The different is say Shao Lin Yi Ying Ying start the training with activating the Lung Medirians. The emei 12 zhuang Start with the little Yang medirian... the motion might be different but everything follow the three keys of Chinese internal cultivation.

+++I wish that were true, but i think as i mentioned the information is fragmented, as i mentioned earlier.

at least one have seen the real thing once.
that way, one would not mislead oneself , not mislead others from book learning mind speculation.
without going through this step how is one going to truely learn?

+++But in internal training we cant see what i going on inside.

The reason I purposely elaborate here is because
as it said,
creating karma and cultivating internal is a totally opposite path.
Mind is an instrument of creation, one could use the mind to create karma whether it is good or bad.
internal Cultivation is the path to return to the origin or infinite, or Let Go Let God. So there is not cultural different be it in the west or in the east. Same.

+++That is spiritual training, and im very acclamated to it. I didnt know that was what you were implying "Internal" is. Again, WCK isnt meant to be spiritual system. Ermie is though..

The AWARENESS could KNOW but the mind cannot percieve this path, one needs to evoke the AWARENESS. Until then one better off following the sifu. otherwise, dont train.
INternal Cultivation is to release every thoughts, good or bad, lower or UPPER , only when the mind is quiet then the path surface.
if one is so concern about "you dont question you get manipulated. " and calculation, then one cannot train the internal path because training internal path is about Let Go Let God, or DAo mimic the Natural or as in the Emei 12 zhuang clasical said " one spontaneously following the Nature.."
even in EEG, if one cannot let go one's thought and quiet down the mind, one's is not going to get into Alfa state or any deep awareness state. without going to Alfa state one is not going to experience what one doesnt aware of in the beta state.

+++Yes so i agree that in the methods you have listed, but i call that Spiritual. And didnt know that was what you are saying "Internal" is.

WCK is not Tai Chi but they share the 3 keys of all Chinese internal art.

Taichi also activate the 8 medirians but with different sequence. Where WCK first activate the Ren and Du. Look at GM TST's teaching. That is the teaching of activating the Ren and Du. These are all facts. you sure dont have to take it. But it is facts.

+++So what are you refering to as the 3 keys of Internal Training?

B

Hendrik

03-02-2007, 01:53 AM

+++Okay. I disagree. I have read many classics, from a very wide range of Chinese Internal and External Arts. If everyone used the exact same 3 keys, there wouldnt be a need for so many variations and systems. ------B

The 3 keys applied to all that is certain.

Many variations and systems is because it doesnt have to be one and only one way to get to the same destination.

My study of Man's esoteric history and truth, has proven to me that, there is a common system to all ancient man, that is imbeded in the ancient Numeric Alphabet systems, With only miner cultural differances. It took me directly learning and experiancing Esoteric Taoism, Hermetics, Gnostism (true Christiantiy), Chaldean Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Egyptian Kabala, Shugendo, Yamabushi, Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism, Theosophy of Blavatsky and Emie mountain. This system is the Operating system and hand book for the Human "Machine", and also includes mans true history and evolution, which includes the various Root races and sub race development. --------B

I am presenting the fact in the Chinese Internal art training. and Chinese Internal art training is based on 3 keys.

"Internal" Kung Fu has parts of this system. But its extremly fragmented, imo. And each C.M.A system has differant components intact. But most dont contain all of the parts as a whole. Emie Mountain is one that probably does contain all the components, but you would have to be a actualy Monk to be trasmited the entire system. And to say there is a common core concept across all Chinese Internal Arts is just not true, IMO.---------

YOu are entitle for your opinion.

The fact is in Chinese Internal TRaining is it core on 3 keys. Until one knows what is that 3 keys, one didnt know Chinese Internal Training because one cannot start the training to produce result. That is certain.

I wouldnt call any of the above "Internal" but "Spiritual" systems of evolution for man to evolve into what he should be or "Is". -------- B

There is a different between internal and spiritual if we talk about Chinese Internal art.

So, until one know what is the 3 core key/domain. It is better to limit the discussion in the domain of Internal training.

Man is a microcosm of the Macrocosm. All of creation is within the Human Body as is the entire process of creation. All other root races that man is related to are contained within the various stages of the birth cycle. As such There is only 1 in truth. And we move from the many, and gradualy "Hack away" fragmentation, until we get back to the most simple and core of everything. Man contains the 3 pure ones/Holy trinity, which contains Body, Soul, and Spirit as the major demarcations. The soul has 2 aspects. The Upper and the Lower. If the Upper is evolved and unions with the Spiriti/Shen, that is the "Marriage of the bride groom". This is the Male and Female energies becoming 1. But starts with refining Jing to Qi, and than Qi to Shen. ------- B

Great theory,

however,
how to cultivate the Jing to Qi? Notice I use the word cultivate
How to transcent Qi to Shen? Notice I use the word transcent.
How to return Shen to emptiness? Notice I use the word return

These three states/level are based on the 3 keys mention above, and one must have the process of training/cultivating. instead of just theoritical reasoning or phylosophical thinking.

Until one has the process which could implement the cultivate the Jing to Qi, Transcent qi to shen, and return the shen to emptiness and produce result, ONe doesnt know the facts of Chinese internal training.

I dont agree currently that WCK has Emie's spiritual system imbeded in it. I think it has parts that were Fused with White Crane. If one wants the 9 level Ladder they need the Complete Emie System, Not WCK. -------

As I mention above, Chinese Internal is different then Spiritual. and it is better to limit the discussion in Chinese Internal art.

Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.

+++Incorrect. Harmony and Balance are never in extreme unbalanced states, which is what one would have to be in, to not follow the Middle path (which is my paraphrasing of the idea). Therefore Harmony and Change with perfect balance still only ends up with 1 whole. And than...nothing.------

I am just stating what is the fact as Iching shows,

you could have your own intepretation on Iching.

In fact Change is based on Imbalance.

again, non of the hexagan combination has a 5+ 5 state. Thus, your idea of perfect balance doesnt exist in the teaching of Iching.

Look at the Hexagon combination, there is no such thing in the Hexagon as 5 and 5 combination. Check it out.
and the best state in IChing hexagram is Ch'ien or Modesty
ttp://littlestcat.com/iching/hex15.html
even in this hexagram, there is only one Yang (nine) and other five are Yin (six) So what is Middle path?

+++Your ideas of Seperation, and Dichotomy is something i dont agree with it. -------

You certainly could have your own idea.

what I show above is not my idea, it is a basic 101 when one study Iching in a traditional chinese way.

that is the entire scope of what i am refering to?
You assume im in a place where im allowed, by my teachers ,to spill out my entire training for the entertainment of someone trying to prove me wrong as well as the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo?? Those are a few things that need to be trained, with none of the training explained, and no order. ------

I dont assume,
I am not interest to prove you wrong.
your information become an evident by itself.

If and I said If, you are wrong. that doesnt mean YKS and Sung Num are wrong. Please do not make the link. You are not YKS or Sung Num.

I have help Rene to translate the abstract part of Late GM Sung Num's Kidney Qi return to its origin article in WCK.com. So, dont assume I am trying to prove you wrong as well as the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo.

+++You dont have to prove anything. If you want people to actually try training, that you are suggesting, it is not unresonable to explain to people, your own training and experiance, and validate you have trained what you are suggesting is the "Truth about training". -----B

1, I dont care if people try to training what I am posting or not.

2, I am just address it is a fact that Chinese Internal art all based on 3 universal core key/concept/principle. anyone doesnt know that have no idea how to enter into the path.

3, If I am not explain what is going on in chinese Internal art training why do I post this far?

Hendrik

03-02-2007, 02:00 AM

People wont gamble with their WCK training, especialy altering it in a major way, without knowing the person, knows what they are actually talking about. This shouldnt be insulting. This is simply fact. Im surprised you were not more sensitive to it, living in the West as long as you have.-------B

As I have addressed, there are 3 core keys which is common to all Chinese Internal art training; which shows the clear direction of the Chinese Internal art cultivation. as i have explain to you in the previous post, the variantion is some such as Yee JIng Jing or Yee Gang start the activation with Lung Medirian, Emei 12 zhuang starts with little Yang Medirian...etc each have its own pro and cons. But all is heading toward the 3 core and using the 3 core.

As I have propose and presented using the Biofeedback measurement to measure the result of the training, from EEG to HRV to Body Temperature, these are the safest way and effective way to train in chinese internal art. That provide clarity.

As I also have proposed and presented the mapping of the content of Chinese Internal art with present research result and study of breathing....etc, which trying to let one experience what is the basic Chinese Internal art such as the activation of Ren and Du medirians is about.

how could that being "not more sensitive to it, living in the West as long as you have."

if one rather belief in what one belief instead of the core of the practice and the scientific measurement, there is nothing I could change thier mind.

Who ask you to gamble? what is altering?

perhaps it is you who have fear of losing if you face the reality of what Chinese Internal Training tradition is about? and perhaps it is you or others who have altering the training ?

arent those a possibility too?

Now we are talking what is or isnt training. This is very very serious and b-Yond a Hobby of mine. I dont take our system lightly. ------------

Brian, if I am not serious and I am careless. I wont post this far.

Yes, there is 3 keys which is common to all Chinese Internal Training. and most dont know about it because they have never get the training.

Yes, with these 3 keys one could handle the EEG, HRV, and temperature sensing of Biofeedback measurement. and most will fail because they have all kind of mind-speculating theory but their training doesnt work ever.

Yes, as I post in WCK.com on the activation of Ren and Du, the teaching of Gay Hendricks infact have common ground with the Ren and Du handling in the Emei 12 zhuang or all Ren Du activation traning or Chinese Internal art. and most never know there is no east or west or Emei or Standford University but Natural is the common ground.

Finally, Yes, I am deadly serious because I am the guine pig to find a way out so that the "Unseen able" "easy to be Bul****-able, mislead-able " basic internal training could be monitor and safely learn because life is too short and precious.

There is so much localized evolution, i think currently its unclear what ISNT Localized evolution. You say Internal is the truth about WCk training. Or is it? Perhaps that is a localized evolution, as Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal. ------

Get a EEG, HRV, and Temperature sensing Machine, hook it up and take the data while one practice. That will show what is the reality what work what not work. it got to be that solid.

Read the DR. Gay Hendricks research on spine and breathing which is proven scienticially. Read the GM Sung Num's article on why the Kidney Qi return to origine is introduce into his teaching.
Observe for yourself if those elbow in the centerline or clamping knees are Natural for human that aids the body? or it is an opposite.

in additional,
Perhaps Localization Evolution is true, or perhap Localization Evolution is just a fany term I am using to give face . instead to challenge others " sadly you have lost your ancestor's art" ?

Think, If one cant even give an instruction on how to attain a glimse of what Nature breathing or spine handling, how could one being effective in using thier body? does one need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that? no absolutely no.

if one cant even activate the Ren and Du how can one activate SLT/SNT?
Look at GM TST, look at his teaching what is that if that is not helping others to cultivate the Ren and Du and activate the SNT......?

From GM SN's article to GM TST accross lineages isnt it these evidents tell you something?

as for "Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal. " that is an speculation uses alots for arguement shake. Do we know what happen with them?

Peace

byond1

03-02-2007, 02:23 AM

The 3 keys applied to all that is certain.
Many variations and systems is because there is no one and only one way to get to a destination.

+++I agree differant paths to same destination. BUT - How can you make a blanket statement - in "ALL Chinese Internal MA train the exact same core 3" when that would mean you have studied all Chinese internal MA and have some form of direct experiance in all of them, and i would find that imposible.

I am presenting the fact in the Chinese Internal art training. and Chinese Internal art training is based on 3 keys.

+++Shen, Qi, and JIng are part of the Spiritual process that is found in all the differant systems i posted in my last Post. And are a piece of the overall spiritual system.

YOu are entitle for your opinion.

The fact is in Chinese Internal TRaining is it core on 3 keys. Until one knows what is that 3 keys, one didnt know Chinese Internal Training because one cannot start the training to produce result. That is certain.

+++Well the training i practise is Spiritual based, and includes transforming my JIng which has been retained for almost 3 years, into Chi. The process starts with activating the fire in my lower cauldren, which creats a "Steaming Process". Itrs part of Esoteric Taoism which is the core system i practise. And i wouldnt simply call it Internal.

There is a different between internal and spiritual if we talk about Chinese Internal art.

+++You might be right, i dont know. I dont know Chinese Internal Art. I only know Taoist esoteric Alchemy

So, until one know what is the 3 core key/domain. It is better to limit the discussion in the domain of Internal training.

Great theory,

however,
how to cultivate the Jing to Qi? Notice I use the word cultivate

+++A journey of 1000 miles begins with 1 step.

How to transcent Qi to Shen? Notice I use the word transcent.
How to return Shen to emptiness? Notice I use the word return

+++Thats because this process is reversing creation. Spirit or awarness goes back to that which cant be spoken of.

These three states/level are based on the 3 keys mention above, and one must have the process of training/cultivating. instead of just theoritical reasoning or phylosophical thinking.

+++I agree.

Until one has the process which could implement the cultivate the Jing to Qi, Transcent qi to shen, and return the shen to emptiness and produce result, ONe doesnt know the facts of Chinese internal training.

+++ I didnt know that was what you were speaking about, as it wasnt made clear in the early posts. This process is Taoist, imo. And im not sure how it can be said that ALL chinese internal arts uses the process.

As I mention above, Chinese Internal is different then Spiritual. and it is better to limit the discussion in Chinese Internal art.

+++Perhaps we shouldnt even discuss this on a forum. Its a horrible format.

Iching has no concept on Middle path. But harmony, and Harmony is not Middle Path.

I am just stating what is the fact as Iching shows,
you could have your own intepretation on Iching.
In fact Change is based on Imbalance.
again, non of the hexagan combination has a 5+ 5 state. Thus, your idea of perfect balance doesnt exist in the teaching of Iching.

+++Interesting. WHat im stating is the concept found in everysingle ancient culture including Chinese, and includes the Iching.
Simply view fragments of the whole as Imbalance or Balance is incorrect. There is only 1 whole, with change like water, which i have stated numerous times. BUt that doesnt make it 2 or 3 or 5. Thats illusion created by logic speculation like LIbnetz.

You certainly could have your own idea.

what I show above is not my idea, it is a basic 101 when one study Iching in a traditional chinese way.

+++what i share is common to all ancient cultures, and is 101 of what the Macro is. Patterned Chaos doesnt mean 2 or 3. There is still only 1.

I dont assume,
I am not interest to prove you wrong.
your information become an evident by itself.
If and I said If, you are wrong. that doesnt mean YKS and Sung Num are wrong. Please do not make the link. You are not YKS or Sung Num.

+++ There is a link made by your statement. You said WCK is an internal system, and those who dont have it are Localized evolution, so that means that WWB,LYT and DFMK passed down localized Evol. or their students evolved it IE Fok Bo, Fung siu, or YKS. So me not being YKS is irelavant- and had no purpose in being stated.
Your statement suggests that the methods passed down are Localized evol. Plain and simple.

I have help Rene to translate the abstract part of Late GM Sung Num's Kidney Qi return to its origin article in WCK.com. So, dont assume I am trying to prove you wrong as well as the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo.

+++Actually you suggested YKS WCK was missing a component that Wai Yuk and Sum were trying to put back.

1, I dont care if people try to training what I am posting or not.

+++Wow i totaly misinterpreted why you do what you do. I thought you wanted to help people, by following an internal path. And so thats why you post info in hopes people will try it.

2, I am just address it is a fact that Chinese Internal art all based on 3 universal core key/concept/principle. anyone doesnt know that have no idea how to enter into the path.
3, If I am not explain what is going on in chinese Internal art training why do I post this far?

+++See above.
And thanks for sharing.

B

Hendrik

03-02-2007, 02:35 AM

at least one have seen the real thing once.
that way, one would not mislead oneself , not mislead others from book learning mind speculation.
without going through this step how is one going to truely learn?

+++But in internal training we cant see what i going on inside.

That is the reason I am proposing Biofeedback measurement with modern machines.

The reason I purposely elaborate here is because
as it said,
creating karma and cultivating internal is a totally opposite path.
Mind is an instrument of creation, one could use the mind to create karma whether it is good or bad.
internal Cultivation is the path to return to the origin or infinite, or Let Go Let God. So there is not cultural different be it in the west or in the east. Same.

+++That is spiritual training, and im very acclamated to it. I didnt know that was what you were implying "Internal" is. Again, WCK isnt meant to be spiritual system. Ermie is though..

It is not.
one couldnt even get one's Dan Dien heat up or lower the reading of beta brain wave with eeg machine if one cannot "switch off" one's thinking mind to a big degree.

You dont have to take my word .
Hook up with EEG, the it will tell you.

The AWARENESS could KNOW but the mind cannot percieve this path, one needs to evoke the AWARENESS. Until then one better off following the sifu. otherwise, dont train.
INternal Cultivation is to release every thoughts, good or bad, lower or UPPER , only when the mind is quiet then the path surface.
if one is so concern about "you dont question you get manipulated. " and calculation, then one cannot train the internal path because training internal path is about Let Go Let God, or DAo mimic the Natural or as in the Emei 12 zhuang clasical said " one spontaneously following the Nature.."
even in EEG, if one cannot let go one's thought and quiet down the mind, one's is not going to get into Alfa state or any deep awareness state. without going to Alfa state one is not going to experience what one doesnt aware of in the beta state.

+++Yes so i agree that in the methods you have listed, but i call that Spiritual. And didnt know that was what you are saying "Internal" is.

again, it doesnt have to go that deep into spiritual. EEG will tell, it is only about quieting one's mind. Try it.

WCK is not Tai Chi but they share the 3 keys of all Chinese internal art.

Taichi also activate the 8 medirians but with different sequence. Where WCK first activate the Ren and Du. Look at GM TST's teaching. That is the teaching of activating the Ren and Du. These are all facts. you sure dont have to take it. But it is facts.

+++So what are you refering to as the 3 keys of Internal Training?

Loose, Quiet, and Natural.

in all case, in all time, by all means, at all level,
One must never ever leave or travel away from Loose, Quiet, and Natural.

and at the begining level, the loose, quiet, and natural is about

The physical body needs to be preserved in the Loose Condition.
The Mind has to be Quiet and intention naturally present.
The Breathing has to be Natural.

and

via these 3 basic core, Qi will surface.

Then, one uses the Yee to lead the Qi and using the Qi to transport the body. and every school, every style has thier path for serving thier intended purpose.
Such as some will strengthen thier liver some kidney some lung.... to begin with.

and

keeping refine and raise to another level, and there is no end of it

because Chinese internal training is a never ending journey travelling with Loose, Quiet, and Natural towards the ultimate Loose, Quiet, and Natural. where Loos, quiet, and natural applied to more and more action every time one's kungfu goes deeper.

didnt the Wingchunkuen Kuit said, Using silence to lead the action? Silence is Quiet mind.

one has to have a sifu to travel this path, book reading doesnt work well that is a fact.

This post is getting too long and might get other bored, Thus, this is the last post from me for this topic.

Sorry everyone for bored you all.

Hendrik

03-02-2007, 02:48 AM

1, I dont care if people try to training what I am posting or not.

+++Wow i totaly misinterpreted why you do what you do. I thought you wanted to help people, by following an internal path. And so thats why you post info in hopes people will try it.

If I have an intention of helping others then i have ego. I can only help myself and present what is going on in my journey. if others could make use of it great if not it is also great.

For there is no string attach, nothing needs to be credit, no ego to be boost, and not title to be proved. my job is just sharing.

Let Go let God.

goodbye

Hendrik

03-03-2007, 10:46 AM

Since I have some free time here I reply the following because there are some important concept needs to be discussed and close this discussion.

I am presenting the fact in the Chinese Internal art training. and Chinese Internal art training is based on 3 keys.---HS

+++Shen, Qi, and JIng are part of the Spiritual process that is found in all the differant systems i posted in my last Post. And are a piece of the overall spiritual system.

How many of us keep repeating Shen, Qi, and Jing? How many of us make claim about it is a part of Spiritual process? but what is Jing Qi Shen? how to cultivate them? how one knows one have it?

Those are the question otherwise, it is wishfull thinking.

The traditional chinese internal art comes with a process which lead one to cultivate and attain a tangible handling of Jing, Qi, Shen, for example, with the first step of leading AWARE of what is Qi. one got to be able to see what it is to be able to handle what it is.

So, It is un acceptable to just qouting Jing, Qi, Shen.

But one must also provide the process of how one could know what is Jing Qi Shen and the cultivation process of jing qi Shen.

A common case: disregard of what is the style, what is the school, what is the lineages, what is the teaching.

The process as the following must be presented

what is the process of transform Jing to Qi. what is the process of transcent Qi to Shen, what is the process of returning Shen to emptiness.

otherwise, it falls into what the chinese's biggest weakness in the past 150 years.

Ideas without methodology to manifest or as the Chinese called it EMpty idea or all talk no action plan, the chinese also called it " The heavenly horse travel in the sky" which means things are out of the blue such as could one find a flying pig. the concept or idea or philosophy of flying pig could be very sound and real but is there a such thing as flying pig?

In the path of internal, IMHO, major major of presentation is flying pig. just ask those who claim to be expert in internal art, so, what is the theory behind surfacing the Qi and how to do that and have you have it?

if not, what to talk? how can one prove one's idea is even implemenatable if one doesnt present a process of implementation?

Thus, think one could clasified the subject into spiritual, or whatever catagory...etc however, without a specific methodology presentation of the process of cultivation, it doesnt mean much.

-------------------------

YOu are entitle for your opinion.

The fact is in Chinese Internal TRaining is it core on 3 keys. Until one knows what is that 3 keys, one didnt know Chinese Internal Training because one cannot start the training to produce result. That is certain.

+++Well the training i practise is Spiritual based, and includes transforming my JIng which has been retained for almost 3 years, into Chi. The process starts with activating the fire in my lower cauldren, which creats a "Steaming Process". Itrs part of Esoteric Taoism which is the core system i practise. And i wouldnt simply call it Internal.----

your process still doesnt tell about what is the ingradient of activating the fire...etc ?

how to activating the fire?
how do you know the fire is activate?
what is a Steaming Process?
How do you know there is steaming?

and also, Traditional Chinese Medicine has thousand's of years of history record of teaching the patient to heal their illness such as stomach problem, lung problem, liver problem via Internal training and there is no need to have spiritual or Religion link with that. The patient heal and cured.

according to the practice of Zhen Qi in TCM in China today, it only takes 2 weeks to surface the Qi, another 40 days or so to accumulate the Qi. and the healing result surface range from 2 weeks to 100 days. This is a fact and scientific study facts.

So, I would like to say, internal training is not about religion or mystesism. it is about technology. and what I am presenting is about the basic key of the technology. instead of getting into IChing, Daoism....etc which is free to be intepreate similar to flying pig.

and belive it or not, using the EEG brainware and HRV measurement, within 5 minute one will be able to tell does one has the basic training to even just surface the Qi. not to mention advance stuffs.

------------------------------

Great theory,

however,
how to cultivate the Jing to Qi? Notice I use the word cultivate

+++A journey of 1000 miles begins with 1 step.

Yes, great attitude however which direction to start and how big a step need to take? so back to the same old question. how to cultivate the Jing to Qi? or how to transform the Jing to qi? with what?

How to transcent Qi to Shen? Notice I use the word transcent.
How to return Shen to emptiness? Notice I use the word return

+++Thats because this process is reversing creation. Spirit or awarness goes back to that which cant be spoken of.

How to know if it is awareness but not the mind spinning ? what is reversing creation? is it a reversing or it is let go let god?

YOu see, we all could talk about spirit or awareness.

but a few minute of EEG will tell if one can tame the beta wave or not. if one doesnt have he handling of tame the beta wave. Forget about spirit or awareness. Obviously one doesnt know. if one know, one can handle the beta wave, disregard of how much control one has , strong or weak, stable or unstable, but one could influence beta surely and repeatable that is certain.

It is at this level , IMHO, then we could discuss about internal training . without this measurable capability and knowingly the handling of different mind/body parameters, there is not meaning in discussing internal.

--------------------

Until one has the process which could implement the cultivate the Jing to Qi, Transcent qi to shen, and return the shen to emptiness and produce result, ONe doesnt know the facts of Chinese internal training.

+++ I didnt know that was what you were speaking about, as it wasnt made clear in the early posts. This process is Taoist, imo. And im not sure how it can be said that ALL chinese internal arts uses the process.

These stuffs are basic of the basic of Chinese Internal training be it in Traditional Chinese Medicine or Confusius or Daoism or Internal Chinese martial art training.

Every step of the above could be done in different way or name differently due to different method from different style or lineage but these are basic stuffs which if one have a formal training one knows.

Without knowing these how could one know about internal training?

-----------------------------------

As I mention above, Chinese Internal is different then Spiritual. and it is better to limit the discussion in Chinese Internal art.

+++Perhaps we shouldnt even discuss this on a forum. Its a horrible format.

It is not.

This must be make clear to the western public because the distortion of the Chinese Internal Training presented to the Western public actually damaging the Chinese Internal Training teaching and also put the Western public into disadvantage of misleading them to think Chinese internal training is Voodo.

NOpe, Chinese Internal training is not JEdi Qi blow. Chinese Internal training is about the training on one's breath, mind, and body handling.

Today, we dont have to call it Internal anymore, in the ancient time, it was called internal because it cannot be seen. Now, we got biofeedback machine, we could read eeg, HRV, skin temperature.

and thus, things got to be clear on what is what. only with clear direction and process and knowing what is talking about then one could train and get result. It is not religios believe. it is technology.

and I push so far because why settle for less when the technology could deliver?
why always concluded with religious and spiritual type of wishfull thinking when those thinking actually offer no solution but more ambiguity? IMHO

--------------------------------

Hendrik

03-03-2007, 10:47 AM

I am just stating what is the fact as Iching shows,
you could have your own intepretation on Iching.
In fact Change is based on Imbalance.
again, non of the hexagan combination has a 5+ 5 state. Thus, your idea of perfect balance doesnt exist in the teaching of Iching.

+++Interesting. WHat im stating is the concept found in everysingle ancient culture including Chinese, and includes the Iching.
Simply view fragments of the whole as Imbalance or Balance is incorrect. There is only 1 whole, with change like water, which i have stated numerous times. BUt that doesnt make it 2 or 3 or 5. Thats illusion created by logic speculation like LIbnetz.

you see,

let's face it, there is an open secret about studying the Chinese classical of the ancient Chinese which most dont know because they never really study Chinese Classical in the traditional Chinese classical way.

The secret is:
The Chinese classic such as Iching or Sun TZU define thier term very specifically WITHIN the classic it self.

That is the reason I am using the IChing's detail writing on hexagon within Iching to verify the Iching's concept instead of Libnetz or even other classical.

Thus there is no speculation but the Iching define itself what it is, as it is.

----------------------------

I dont assume,
I am not interest to prove you wrong.
your information become an evident by itself.
If and I said If, you are wrong. that doesnt mean YKS and Sung Num are wrong. Please do not make the link. You are not YKS or Sung Num.

+++ There is a link made by your statement. You said WCK is an internal system, and those who dont have it are Localized evolution, so that means that WWB,LYT and DFMK passed down localized Evol. or their students evolved it IE Fok Bo, Fung siu, or YKS. So me not being YKS is irelavant- and had no purpose in being stated.
Your statement suggests that the methods passed down are Localized evol. Plain and simple.

I have help Rene to translate the abstract part of Late GM Sung Num's Kidney Qi return to its origin article in WCK.com. So, dont assume I am trying to prove you wrong as well as the traditions that have been passed down by YKS sijo.

+++Actually you suggested YKS WCK was missing a component that Wai Yuk and Sum were trying to put back.

I dont suggest I just relay what GM SN's view.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=662

There are two terms in chinese one must be aware of 1, Sau Kuen means closing the form set. 2, Sau Kung means close the conditioning.

Now, read this, (or even best if one could read the Original Chinese version in the following website.)

" According to Mr. Sung Num, the Kidney Qi return to its origin method is the "closing " training of Wing Chun Kuen. After one complete the training of Wing Chun's sets or woodern dummy ...etc, one must practice the Kidney Qi return to its origin practice. The intention is to store the energy into one's body via the Kidney Qi return to its origin method. This is the meaning of "Closing" Kung. Thus, we who is practicing Wing Chun Kuen has to be aware of this and must cultivate this method."

The key term here is Sao Kung or keep the Kung or "closing" kung.

See, it is not Sao Kuen but Sao Kung is used.

anyone train in the Chinese Internal art knows, "closing " kung is very very very important because in today's word, When one train a Kung, one is entering an alter STATE. and Closing is about return to the daily STATE from the alter State.

without proper Closing often the energy could deplete or out of control which need special leading back to the daily STATE.

Now,

if WCK which Late GM SN is studying and teaching, is not an internal art to begin with, why GM SN bother to introduce a "closing " method and to address. " Thus, we who is practicing Wing Chun Kuen has to be aware of this and must cultivate this method."?

You see, there is no secret, things are written with 20/20 clearlity.

So you tell me. what type of art is late GM SN's art?

mantis108

03-03-2007, 02:16 PM

Interesting debate I think it's a brilliant stroke from byond1 that tweaked the Christian theology to harmonize with Yijing concepts; while at the same time, connect the binary language and the use of computer operation model, which Hendrik holds in high esteem, to tackle Hendrik's position. I think your rebutal would have killed 2 birds with one stone. However, I don't believe that Christian theology has much to do with Chinese worldview, unless of course we can presume Jesus did study in India. Other than that all that's said and done is but speculative and theoretical as best IMHO.

Now, there is a good point about dichotomy is not necessarily a "correct" POV and usage of Yijing even though it has been regarded as "othodox" because of the Jusuits' translation of mainly Song dynasty Zhu Xi's work (around 1130 CE), which according to some scholar on the subject believe that his school of rationalism being the mainstream in later dynasty pretty much altered the development of Yijing. Dichotomy is an important pillar of his study of Yi but it's not the only way nor is it the othodox way as compare to older traditions. So... Also the use of the hexagram to explain thing in this case is not very grounded (seems a bit superficial). This weakens the arguement significantly.

I believe Hendrix is on the right track but the arguement using Yijing would need to tighten up quite a bit since I believe Zhu Xi's brand of Yi doesn't hold a lot of water as compare to other's work (ie Zhao Kangzhe or other Daoist scholar's work) . Don't get me wrong, you can make a very compelling arguement with Yijing study in this matter but you will have to work a lot hard to bring that point across IMHO.

BTW

Lian Jing Hua Qi
Lian Qi Hua Shen
Lian Shen Huan Xu

is known as San Hua Ju Ding (3 blossoms gather at the summit). It is mainly a Daoist meditation process and is not necessarily "palatable" or accessible for all.

just some thoughts

Mantis108

And now back to the normal programing. :D

Hendrik

03-03-2007, 04:32 PM

Interesting debate ------

I am not into debating

I am doing my best to communicate on what I know about the Chinese mind set. philosophical debate doesnt excite me at all.

Dichotomy is an important pillar of his study of Yi but it's not the only way nor is it the othodox way as compare to older traditions. So... Also the use of the hexagram to explain thing in this case is not very grounded (seems a bit superficial). --------

Again, no matter what those are, those are one of the ways the Chinese have gone through. So, if you know a better way, share with us. The bottom line is to share with the western friends what is it about be it superficial or deep.

and if one is not using the hexagram as it is then one missed the Su (numerologic theory in ancient China) of the Iching or the five elements concept. and how can a study of Iching doesnt involve Su? IMHO, deep has to start with superficial, only when the superficial is understood, then one could move on.

I believe Hendrix is on the right track but the arguement using Yijing would need to tighten up quite a bit since I believe Zhu Xi's brand of Yi doesn't hold a lot of water as compare to other's work (ie Zhao Kangzhe or other Daoist scholar's work) .-------

Zhu Xi does influence China for passed 800 years right? :D it still exist because it is easy to learn. if it doesnt hold water it will be vanished long time ago. so, it does hold some amont of chinese mind set water.
weak or strong, there is almost a thousand year of chinese culture in it. right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

as for Zhao KangZhe's insight, Certainly he is more advance and whole. however, how many in China and in the history of china could understand Zhao's wonderful spontaneous view? not to mention to introduce them to our western friends?

BTW. isnt it Zhao Kang jie is also a greatest master of Su in Chinese history?

in additional,
I am purposely brought up the Concept of Su here so that our western friend will know there are more to it then just plain philosophy. How to use Su in Chinese culture be it in Sun Tzu to Traditional medicine is a something needed to be looked into.

if you have a better deeper view, please share. So that integrate, we could give our western friend a better view.

Lian Jing Hua Qi
Lian Qi Hua Shen
Lian Shen Huan Xu

is known as San Hua Ju Ding (3 blossoms gather at the summit). It is mainly a Daoist meditation process and is not necessarily "palatable" or accessible for all. ------

What does this above means? that is my question to everyone include myself. what is the process? how to do it ? with what? if we from the Chinese tradition have no idea about the process of cultivation. Then,

Dropping term doesnt mean much at all and to the worst is going to confuse our western friends even more.

Term dropping and inteprate the term as one like has become a problem that distorted what is the true meaning behind the term.

and

Lian Jing Hua Qi
Lian Qi Hua Shen
Lian Shen Huan Xu

is not mainly a Daoist meditation process but it has influence even the practicing the Taijichuan set or SLT set ..ect . and what is the particular detail of the influence in the process of training is what I am interested in. Not the term.

as we have discussed about the activation of the 8 special medirians in other forum. without knowing the activation process, knowing the term and terms means nothing. and debating about term is just mind speculation which has nothing to do with the subject often.

IMHO,
There is no end to all we could discuss as we know these are big topic even often unknow within the Chinese.

So, To get to the bottom line of this type of discussion. IMHO
any one who claim to know about Qigong or Daoist or Neigong could heat up thier Dan Dien at will? if not then what to discuss? if we dont know tthe basic and superficail stuffs.

I see, it is a reality issue which is very difficult to solve, because we all have ego of thinking we are right.

peace

mantis108

03-03-2007, 10:31 PM

Dichotomy is an important pillar of his study of Yi but it's not the only way nor is it the othodox way as compare to older traditions. So... Also the use of the hexagram to explain thing in this case is not very grounded (seems a bit superficial). --------

Again, no matter what those are, those are one of the ways the Chinese have gone through. So, if you know a better way, share with us. The bottom line is to share with the western friends what is it about be it superficial or deep.

and if one is not using the hexagram as it is then one missed the Su (numerologic theory in ancient China) of the Iching or the five elements concept. and how can a study of Iching doesnt involve Su? IMHO, deep has to start with superficial, only when the superficial is understood, then one could move on.

All I am saying is that if you intend to use the Hexagram to illustrate an ideal, a concept, etc., you will need to provide more information. Perferrably state the type of Yi or which school of thought that you are using because there are different system of Yi available. Most common one would be Zhou Yi (the classic of change of Zhou dynasty) but Zhou Yi is usually more for divinations. Shao Kangjie's (sorry I didn't check my spelling in the last post) Xiantian Yi deals more with philosophy and metaphysics even though it retains the function of divinations. While it is true that Shu (mathematics), Xiang (phenomina or images), and Li (reasons) are the "Holy Trinity" of Yijing, not all schools have the same emphasis or focus. This is why there are Xiang Shu Xue Pai (mathematics and images school) and Li Xue Pai (philosophical school) in the study of Yi. It would not do the reader much good if there is no clarification or reference are given. Yijing, especially the Hexagrams, is very much subject to interpretation. So...

I believe Hendrix is on the right track but the arguement using Yijing would need to tighten up quite a bit since I believe Zhu Xi's brand of Yi doesn't hold a lot of water as compare to other's work (ie Zhao Kangzhe or other Daoist scholar's work) .-------

Zhu Xi does influence China for passed 800 years right? :D it still exist because it is easy to learn. if it doesnt hold water it will be vanished long time ago. so, it does hold some amont of chinese mind set water.
weak or strong, there is almost a thousand year of chinese culture in it. right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

Zhu Xi or Zhu Zi had a very different idea about Shao Kangjie's Xiantian Yi, which is remarkably reminiscent of Daoist philosophy in many ways. The thing is Zhu Zi's perspective and work in Yijing is like a steam engine as oppose to Shao's, which is more like a rocket engine. The difference between the two is almost like heaven and earth.

as for Zhao KangZhe's insight, Certainly he is more advance and whole. however, how many in China and in the history of china could understand Zhao's wonderful spontaneous view? not to mention to introduce them to our western friends?

Be that difficult as it may, that's doesn't mean that we just give up on trying, right?

BTW. isnt it Zhao Kang jie is also a greatest master of Su in Chinese history?

here's a link on wikipedia. It's not very well written but it's a start.

Shao Kangjie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shao_Yong)

in additional,
I am purposely brought up the Concept of Su here so that our western friend will know there are more to it then just plain philosophy. How to use Su in Chinese culture be it in Sun Tzu to Traditional medicine is a something needed to be looked into.

if you have a better deeper view, please share. So that integrate, we could give our western friend a better view.

Well, thank you for attempting that. But Shu in Yijing is a huge topic such as position on "Tian Di Zhi Shu" - natural numbers (equivalent of number theory, set theory, etc), Xiang Shu related to sexagesimal numeral system, Gua Shu somewhat related to Binary system, musical scale conversion related to 5 phases, Nine palaces matrix, etc. There's a lot to cover, my friend. Thet's why there is a need to be clear on these things.

Lian Jing Hua Qi
Lian Qi Hua Shen
Lian Shen Huan Xu

is known as San Hua Ju Ding (3 blossoms gather at the summit). It is mainly a Daoist meditation process and is not necessarily "palatable" or accessible for all. ------

What does this above means? that is my question to everyone include myself. what is the process? how to do it ? with what? if we from the Chinese tradition have no idea about the process of cultivation. Then,

Dropping term doesnt mean much at all and to the worst is going to confuse our western friends even more.

Term dropping and inteprate the term as one like has become a problem that distorted what is the true meaning behind the term.

You posted the English in previous post of yours already. I just post the Mandarin Pinyin that's all. I do hear you about dropping the term but I was just lazy to type things out. So...

and

Lian Jing Hua Qi
Lian Qi Hua Shen
Lian Shen Huan Xu

is not mainly a Daoist meditation process but it has influence even the practicing the Taijichuan set or SLT set ..ect . and what is the particular detail of the influence in the process of training is what I am interested in. Not the term.

as we have discussed about the activation of the 8 special medirians in other forum. without knowing the activation process, knowing the term and terms means nothing. and debating about term is just mind speculation which has nothing to do with the subject often.

My take is that there are myriad of ways to come to the same places. When the pupil is ready, the master will appear. We are just chatting here (at least from my side) So...

IMHO,
There is no end to all we could discuss as we know these are big topic even often unknow within the Chinese.

So, To get to the bottom line of this type of discussion. IMHO
any one who claim to know about Qigong or Daoist or Neigong could heat up thier Dan Dien at will? if not then what to discuss? if we dont know tthe basic and superficail stuffs.

I see, it is a reality issue which is very difficult to solve, because we all have ego of thinking we are right.

Well, internal cultivation is not a contest of singularity IHMO. There's no need to have a winner with the best way of doing things. Best we can do is to provide as much information as we can or willing to. The rest is just blowing in the wind. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

peace[/QUOTE]

Hendrik

03-04-2007, 12:47 AM

Well, internal cultivation is not a contest of singularity IHMO. There's no need to have a winner with the best way of doing things. Best we can do is to provide as much information as we can or willing to. The rest is just blowing in the wind. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for sharing.

You certainly has lots of great stuff to offer and share about Yiching.

I agree with you 120%.

it is a difficult topic which needs years and decades of cultivation.

Best Regards

Jim Roselando

03-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Hendrik/Brian,

Cool discussion

Brian wrote:

It took me directly learning and experiancing Esoteric Taoism, Hermetics, Gnostism (true Christiantiy), Chaldean Kabala, Hebrew Kabala, Egyptian Kabala, Shugendo, Yamabushi, Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism, Theosophy of Blavatsky and Emie mountain.

Its really amazing that you were able to experience/directly learning so many of Ancient Mystery Schools teaching. Did you join the Lodge or are you reading Masonic (lodge) lore? Each one is a lifetime of study, and training, if one can even gain access to this stuff. Who are you teachers in the above list?

Man is a microcosm of the Macrocosm. All of creation is within the Human Body as is the entire process of creation. This is the Male and Female energies becoming 1

Anthropose/Androgynous/Elohim (in Hebrew). The problem with Masonic info. is that its fun to read but just that. Try to find someone to teach you how to go thru the process is almost impossible. Almost! ;)

byond1

03-06-2007, 08:41 PM

As I have addressed, there are 3 core keys which is common to all Chinese Internal art training; which shows the clear direction of the Chinese Internal art cultivation. as i have explain to you in the previous post, the variantion is some such as Yee JIng Jing or Yee Gang start the activation with Lung Medirian, Emei 12 zhuang starts with little Yang Medirian...etc each have its own pro and cons. But all is heading toward the 3 core and using the 3 core.

+++I would think some CIA share these common training idea, but i dont believe its across the board. And as i mentioned, CIA are a fragment of the more complete systems that are found in all ancient cultures.

As I have propose and presented using the Biofeedback measurement to measure the result of the training, from EEG to HRV to Body Temperature, these are the safest way and effective way to train in chinese internal art. That provide clarity.
As I also have proposed and presented the mapping of the content of Chinese Internal art with present research result and study of breathing....etc, which trying to let one experience what is the basic Chinese Internal art such as the activation of Ren and Du medirians is about.

+++Good ideas, but not accesable to everyone. Im poor and cant afford equipment.

how could that being "not more sensitive to it, living in the West as long as you have."

+++You missused and manipulated the context of my statement. my statement was in referance to your dislike for Western methods of discusion and questioniing, as you expressed it seemed my way was negative and challenging, and that was nowhere near my intent .

if one rather belief in what one belief instead of the core of the practice and the scientific measurement, there is nothing I could change thier mind.

+++I think the quantifiable method is excelent but not open to everyone due to differant economic backgrounds.

Who ask you to gamble? what is altering?

+++Who?? Altering??? Simple. When YKS passed down to Sum Nung what he was taught as WCK, and its training, Sum Nung passed it down to several students. Who than passed it down to the next generation very carefully. Cho Chuen passed down WCK to Poon Yu village. Who are any of us, to question the methods that have been passed down??? Who are you or I to alter what is our traditions? That prove themselves Via training. You suggesting WCK is an Internal system, means, most WCK branchs would have to alter the training to become what you are saying WCK is meant to be, when there is nothing substantiating, what you are saying, IMO.

perhaps it is you who have fear of losing if you face the reality of what Chinese Internal Training tradition is about? and perhaps it is you or others who have altering the training ?arent those a possibility too?

+++?!?! If you read anything i have written you would know i have repeatedly said that
1) WCK may have ancestraly been internal and than was evolved to loose that quality or
2)WCK ancestraly Wasnt internal and evolved by a few to be practised that way.

And im sorry, but there is no face to loose.

Brian, if I am not serious and I am careless. I wont post this far.
Yes, there is 3 keys which is common to all Chinese Internal Training. and most dont know about it because they have never get the training.
Yes, with these 3 keys one could handle the EEG, HRV, and temperature sensing of Biofeedback measurement. and most will fail because they have all kind of mind-speculating theory but their training doesnt work ever.

+++I understand your standpoint, but my lineage has produced results since the 1900s

Yes, as I post in WCK.com on the activation of Ren and Du, the teaching of Gay Hendricks infact have common ground with the Ren and Du handling in the Emei 12 zhuang or all Ren Du activation traning or Chinese Internal art. and most never know there is no east or west or Emei or Standford University but Natural is the common ground.

+++Im going to by the book and check it out.

There is so much localized evolution, i think currently its unclear what ISNT Localized evolution. You say Internal is the truth about WCk training. Or is it? Perhaps that is a localized evolution, as Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal. ------

in additional,
Perhaps Localization Evolution is true, or perhap Localization Evolution is just a fany term I am using to give face . instead to challenge others " sadly you have lost your ancestor's art" ?

+++I actually think its both. I always thought you said it to try and be "Smart" but its a fact that is true that things evolve with individual interpretation. And add to that instead of Lossing your ancestors art, you can add "Corrupting your ancestors art by adding in non WCK material"

Think, If one cant even give an instruction on how to attain a glimse of what Nature breathing or spine handling, how could one being effective in using thier body? does one need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that? no absolutely no.
if one cant even activate the Ren and Du how can one activate SLT/SNT?
Look at GM TST, look at his teaching what is that if that is not helping others to cultivate the Ren and Du and activate the SNT......?
From GM SN's article to GM TST accross lineages isnt it these evidents tell you something?

+++ It tells me that WCK is a hybred system. Not an internal system like Tai Chi or Hsing Yi.

as for "Wong Wah Bo, Dai Fa min Kam and Leung yee Tai , didnt include what you are describing as Internal. " that is an speculation uses alots for arguement shake. Do we know what happen with them?

+++Speculation based on alot of evidence. Way more evidence than there is suggesting WCK is an internal system. Our ancestors carefully passed down the art. Examine:

Leung Jan > Lo Kwai > Chao Family

Leung Jan > Wong Wah Sam > Fung Chun

Fok Bo Chuen > Yuen Kay Shan > Sum Nung > KWP, LDC, LCY, ect
Fung Siu Ching

Cho Dak Sang > Cho Chuen > Poon Yu

If we look at all of these systems we can see common ground in the training. None of them are internal. They contain elements that are internal. Huge differance. Most have Suplimental Hei Gung forms as well.

The softer approachs tend to have Tai chi theory mixed in

But in internal training we cant see what i going on inside.BS

That is the reason I am proposing Biofeedback measurement with modern machines.

+++Makes sence and a great idea, but not open to everyone.

It is not.
one couldnt even get one's Dan Dien heat up or lower the reading of beta brain wave with eeg machine if one cannot "switch off" one's thinking mind to a big degree. You dont have to take my word .
Hook up with EEG, the it will tell you.

+++I agree with switching off ones mind. But that is a part of spiritual training found across all ancient cultures. Emie is a very pure system preserving the ancestral operating system for the human organism.

So what are you refering to as the 3 keys of Internal Training? BS

Loose, Quiet, and Natural.
in all case, in all time, by all means, at all level,
One must never ever leave or travel away from Loose, Quiet, and Natural.
and at the begining level, the loose, quiet, and natural is about
The physical body needs to be preserved in the Loose Condition.
The Mind has to be Quiet and intention naturally present.
The Breathing has to be Natural.and
via these 3 basic core, Qi will surface.
hen, one uses the Yee to lead the Qi and using the Qi to transport the body. and every school, every style has thier path for serving thier intended purpose.
Such as some will strengthen thier liver some kidney some lung.... to begin with.
and keeping refine and raise to another level, and there is no end of it
because Chinese internal training is a never ending journey travelling with Loose, Quiet, and Natural towards the ultimate Loose, Quiet, and Natural. where Loos, quiet, and natural applied to more and more action every time one's kungfu goes deeper.didnt the Wingchunkuen Kuit said, Using silence to lead the action? Silence is Quiet mind.one has to have a sifu to travel this path, book reading doesnt work well that is a fact.
This post is getting too long and might get other bored, Thus, this is the last post from me for this topic.Sorry everyone for bored you all.

+++Interesting opinion

you see,
let's face it, there is an open secret about studying the Chinese classical of the ancient Chinese which most dont know because they never really study Chinese Classical in the traditional Chinese classical way.

+++Sure. Its great to study Classical chinese without the Limitations of just "That" method of thinking.

byond1

03-06-2007, 08:46 PM

The secret is:
The Chinese classic such as Iching or Sun TZU define thier term very specifically WITHIN the classic it self.
That is the reason I am using the IChing's detail writing on hexagon within Iching to verify the Iching's concept instead of Libnetz or even other classical.
Thus there is no speculation but the Iching define itself what it is, as it is.

+++I disagree. What you are saying goes against everything taught within the Iching, as well as Taoism. What you are saying is in alighnment with LIbnetz though. Thats why i find it odd you would use a western minded dichotomy method to explain something that cant be segmented.

Actually you suggested YKS WCK was missing a component that Wai Yuk and Sum were trying to put back.BS

dont suggest I just relay what GM SN's view.

+++I disagree. I responded to this at WCKuen.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mantis - Interesting debate I think it's a brilliant stroke from byond1 that tweaked the Christian theology to harmonize with Yijing concepts

+++Well modern research points to Buddhist missionaries settling in the Dead sea area. This influenced the Kabala probably. Jesus also traveled to Tibet and through Asian minor. It is documented, in various cultures. Even the Muslims preserve Jesus traveling, meeting teachers from all faiths interacting with them. If one studies Gnostisim, it is plain to see, that its the exact same system preserved in Egypt, Hebrew Kabala, Chaldean Kabala, Taoism, esoteric Buddhism, Yamabushi, Emie , Hermetics, ect.

I do enjoy spirited debate, and simply enjoy talking with people, thats how i learn.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim - i would be carefull with Masonic information. They still have the symbolism, but have lost most of the Keys. And is a shell of what it was.

I dont practise all of the systems, but all of the system preserve the same information, with differant cultural flavorings. I study esoteric Taoism, with some focus on several versions of Kabala and have started investigating the Gnostic system only about 5 years ago. I taught my self the written hebrew language and learned from a Hesidic Rabi how to use it and interpret it, in relation to the Kabala. I have also studied 5 languages and compared their code systems to that of the Hebrew. As well as personaly studied the books from the various systems for almost 20 years. I obviously dont talk about it much as it has nothing to do with WCK.

I have compared what i have learned and practised with teachers and students from the systems i havnt directly practised myself. Much like WCKers do when they travel and meet others, from differant lineages.
Who, what and where byond that isnt important, for this discusion.

If you are interested in learning this information, i would keep focusing on Emie, as its an incredible system of Alchemy, and contains the whole book of knowledge in my opinion.
Also for book reading check out anything by Blavatsky, as she shares parts of the esoteric buddhist system from Tibat, which was never shared before

Ultimatewingchun

03-06-2007, 09:16 PM

"Well modern research points to Buddhist misionaries settleing in the Dead sea area. This influenced the Kabala probably. Jesus also traveled to Tibet and through Asian minor. It is documented, in various cultures. Even the Muslims preserve Jesus traveling, meeting teachers from all faiths interacting with them. If one studies Gnostisim, it is plain to see, that its the exact same system preserved in Egypt, Hebrew Kabala, Chaldean Kabala, Taoism, esoteric Buddhism, Yamabushi, Emie , Hermetics, etc."

***YOU and I are clearly on the same page, beyond1.

I spent 16 years as a member of the United Lodge of Theosophists here in NYC...and about 13 of those years as one of the speakers at their lectures, study classes, and cable television programs.

Theosophy

Gnostic/Mystical Christianity

Kabalist Judaism

Mahayana Buddhism

Bhagavad Gita Hinduism

Sufism within Islam

Taoism

Hermetic Philosophy

Plato's philosophy

Alchemy

Rosicrucianism

The Grail legends

Esoteric Astrology

.....IT'S ALL THE SAME TEACHINGS.

Furthermore...I believe that true kung fu (when esoterically understood) is yet another branch that hangs on this spiritual tree....

It doesn't hang as high as the others just mentioned - but it is on the tree nonetheless.

byond1

03-06-2007, 09:27 PM

Are you serious?? Thats great Vic!!! I wish i knew that sooner!!! I love the Theosophical system, and when i first encountered it, i realised i wasnt alone in my beliefs , that there was 1 common system that was a operating system for man, that also contained his entire system.

I have always wanted to visit the lodge in NYC.

And you added some good ones as well, with the Grail legends, and Rosicrusion systems!!! Excellent!!!

Pythagorias as well

Do you have a favorite author?? Blavatsky is my favorite. She also got a great sence of humor.

Brian

AndrewS

03-06-2007, 10:55 PM

'We place no faith in virgin or pigeon; our method is science, our aim is religion"

Andrew

Ultimatewingchun

03-07-2007, 07:19 AM

Andrew:

Theosophy is a synthesis of religion, philosophy, and science.

Albert Einstein kept a copy of Helena Blavatsky's 1,400 page book, THE SECRET DOCTRINE, on his desk at all times.

Check out the United Lodge of Theosophists branch in L.A. if you ever get a chance.

.......................

Yeah, Brian...Blavatsky is an awesome writer.

Hendrik

03-07-2007, 07:23 PM

As I have propose and presented using the Biofeedback measurement to measure the result of the training, from EEG to HRV to Body Temperature, these are the safest way and effective way to train in chinese internal art. That provide clarity.
As I also have proposed and presented the mapping of the content of Chinese Internal art with present research result and study of breathing....etc, which trying to let one experience what is the basic Chinese Internal art such as the activation of Ren and Du medirians is about. --HS

+++Good ideas, but not accesable to everyone. Im poor and cant afford equipment. --B

The HRV machine is around $300. a Good EEG is around $1500. if one could not afford it a school or club could certainly effort to buy them and time sharing. one only needs to measure them once a few week or months to see the progress. or spend the first few day to make sure one is practiced correctly to begin with.

For anyone who is serious and like to know one's direction and level of cultivation in internal and mind.

HRV and EEG measurements are a must.

otherwise, how could one justified do one really have it or even have one truely enter the gate way of the practice. I have seen those who have spend 20 years in meditation but still have no handling on thier EEG....... 20 years of internal training but still have no handling on thier HRV.

Poor or rich doesnt matter. compare with time, renting a machine is the most a few dollars.
compare with those in ancient china where one must walk a few hundred miles to visit a teacher this is very cheap.

Which is more precious? spending a few dollors or spending 20 years and found out one never enter the gate way of the training...

t_niehoff

03-07-2007, 07:42 PM

Which is more precious? spending a few dollors or spending 20 years and found out one never enter the gate way of the training...

The price of an HRV machine: $300. The price of deluding yourself that it will lead to developing skill in WCK: priceless.

Hendrik, get yourself down to the local MMA school, mix it up with some good guys there, and see what all your theories are really worth.

Hendrik

03-07-2007, 10:21 PM

The price of an HRV machine: $300. The price of deluding yourself that it will lead to developing skill in WCK: priceless.

Hendrik, get yourself down to the local MMA school, mix it up with some good guys there, and see what all your theories are really worth.

It is always best to give you lot of love so energy is not wasted.

unkokusai

03-08-2007, 01:45 AM

Tom and the scientologists are gonna show up here any minute...

:rolleyes:

t_niehoff

03-08-2007, 05:59 AM

Tom and the scientologists are gonna show up here any minute...
:rolleyes:

LOL! Yeah, Tom is probably a TCMA/WCK practitioner too -- it seems to attract people who have given themselves over to magical thinking.

t_niehoff

03-08-2007, 06:03 AM

It is always best to give you lot of love so energy is not wasted.

Hendrik, I love you too, man! But seriously, you need an intervention and some tough love. :) I'll be in LA in June, 2008, visiting Robert and meeting up with Alan so why don't you visit too?

Ultimatewingchun

03-08-2007, 07:24 AM

"Furthermore...I believe that true kung fu (when esoterically understood) is yet another branch that hangs on this spiritual tree....

It doesn't hang as high as the others just mentioned - but it is on the tree nonetheless."

***WOULD like to expand on that a bit further, Brian...

Here's one example of how wing chun can go beyond mere combat application and into the realm of the spiritual...or to be more precise...how it can take us to an intermediate level between the two realms, namely, to the intuitional mind (and therefore one step beyond the "rational", "analytical" mind)...

because intuition begins at the "feeling" level, and as such, can travel faster and more accurately - when engaged properly - then can the analytical conscious mind of "reasoning"....no matter how quickly that reasoning can translate into skillful bodily action....intuition based on feeling can travel faster.

And it can come from higher levels of chi sao development, concentration and breathing exercises, and meditation.

I don't endorse blindfolded chi sao, because it inevitably becomes another wing chun parlor trick that proves nothing about one's fighting abilities while becoming just one more excuse to OVER CHI SAO - and therefore to the detriment of one's overall training regimen (ie.- not enough of other things like hard sparring, condtioning, bag work, etc.)

But chi sao can lead to a point where you rely less-and-less on your eyes and your conscious mind to watch what it is your arm/hand is contacting and doing, and thereby frees up the eyes and "mind" to watch elsewhere.

But in addition, it can be taken to a higher level in one's everyday life.

Too often we're in a rush to do this or that - creating not only stress and anxiety within ourselves - but also the very act of rushing often creates mistakes in what it is we're trying to do at the moment.

And so we drop one of the books we're quickly trying to put on the shelf...we hurt our fingers when quickly opening or closing a door...we mis-speak when trying to explain something to someone too quickly, etc.

Much can be learned and gained at such times by closing the eyes and just let one's body take over...in other words....don't visually watch what you are doing...just inwardly give your body/lower mind the command to "do it"....and then get out of the way.

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 08:13 AM

Hendrik, I love you too, man! But seriously, you need an intervention and some tough love. :) I'll be in LA in June, 2008, visiting Robert and meeting up with Alan so why don't you visit too?

I have reply you on wck.com

To Cut it short,

june 2008?
That just show me you are not serious.

NOt to mention, I dont think you willing to Sign NDA.

if you are serious?
since I have 3 times challenge you with anytime and any place publicly in this and other forum,

I careless if you fly into San Jose this second.

why not tomorrow you and Robert and Alan fly into San Jose? if you are serious.
I have both machine at home.

I am sure Robert and Alan or anyone who is serious in thier body conditioning will love what it is,
Because they could actually measure the effectiveness of thier Siu Lien Tau Training, under pressure condition handling technics, mind/body handling , or alter State (ie. switching from flight and fly to calm , ect ect....) result and use it to shape thier training to support thier need.

Isnt you are one of the guy advocating everything has to be scientific and critical thinking...etc? if so why all the alabi and nonsense reasoning when Scientific measurement is actually available to measure the effectiveness of the training?

The only reason I could think of is that you purposely intend to down play WCK by all means.

Thus, beside giving you lots of love, I have told Robert, there is no communication needed between you and me here on.

I choose to not associate with those who has no faith in WCK. and who down play WCK, and Down play WCK's ancestors or Sifus from all lineages.

I make myself clear openly in this forum. Here on you walk your path and I walk mine.

Good luck and so long with lot of love. It is not that you are a bad person but since we dont walk the same path there is no need to waste energy.

This will my last post in KFO replying you on this matter.

Knifefighter

03-08-2007, 02:53 PM

Isnt you are one of the guy advocating everything has to be scientific and critical thinking...etc? if so why all the alabi and nonsense reasoning when Scientific measurement is actually available to measure the effectiveness of the training?

Measuring something doesn't make it scientific... and measuring someone's stress responses doesn't tell whether or not they can fight... all it let's you know is whether or not someone can control his autonomic nervous system responses. Doesn't have anything to do with fighting.

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 03:21 PM

Measuring something doesn't make it scientific... and measuring someone's stress responses doesn't tell whether or not they can fight... all it let's you know is whether or not someone can control his autonomic nervous system responses. Doesn't have anything to do with fighting.

Please dont take me serious,
Just some crazy thoughts of mine in this free after noon. :D

1, so what is scientific if not it is about measurable, verifiable, repeatable? tell us here.

2, is HRV stress response? is EEG stress response or STATE? get that clear before reply.

3, if you cant even know your STATE how the heck you talk about fight?

Same with if you dont even know you are doing the right thing to shift gear or can you even shift gear. what is the point to talk about racing the car?

4, some people here talk about can one perform under pressure condition.

and then when we now know one's STATE could be measured. NOw, you are saying "Doesn't have anything to do with fighting."

Tell me how do you know if your training could perform under presssure and how much pressure? we are NOt even need to mention real time fighting yet.

Certainly for some, eventhough they claim to be tough, but just cant take any pressure. IE: got beaten by other style once and fear for the rest of thier life about that style. that is a sign of cant take pressure and zero will power. What kind of training is that? look at the before and after the event.

if you dont even have any idea of whether your training could let you switch to the Zone as you like it when needed.

What to talk about fighting? you have no idea if your training is effective or not at all; and if it cant be measure and repeat that is flying blind faith, not scientific.

5, How to measure fight?

a 3 year old can beat the 6month old baby, the 16 years old can beat the 3 years old so?

a 6feet 200ib everyday training with 3 hours MMA guy could beat an amature training 2 hours,3 times per week WCner, so?
what is the reference?
what is this type of pure physcal based fighting got much do with ART and Handling of the enginee? if you are born strong you win.

So, how do you measure fighting? how to scientifically measure fighting? Tell me that?

go down to the local mma school and fight some guy who is smaller then one or less physically fit and make a claim?

So how is the pentagon measure the chance of winning a war if it is not starting with the measurement of Technology?

t_niehoff

03-08-2007, 03:28 PM

I have reply you on wck.com

Why reply on wck.com when the discussion is here?!

Isnt you are one of the guy advocating everything has to be scientific and critical thinking...etc? if so why all the alabi and nonsense reasoning when Scientific measurement is actually available to measure the effectiveness of the training?
.

How clear can I make this: BECAUSE WHAT YOU WANT TO MEASURE IS NOT FIGHTING WITH WCK SKILL. Who cares if you can alter the brain waves if you still suck at WCK? We test what we are trying to develop. In martial arts, we are trying to develop our fighting skills. Maybe what you do lowers blood pressure. Great. But that's not *martial* art. If you or anyone else can't show that what you are talking about develops significant gains in fighting skill (using WCK), then your other measurements have no significance.

How do you measure fighting? Easy -- they do in in every combative sport (judo, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, MT, etc.) -- by seeing what level of opponent you can consistently hold your own against. Like in any athletic activity, you measure your performance. How can we tell how good a tennis player is? By his brainwaves? LOL! No, by how well he plays in relation to other tennis players.

The only reason I could think of is that you purposely intend to down play WCK by all means.

No, I love WCK; I don't love the nonsense associated with it. Magical thinking is not a part of WCK, but it does seem to be very prevalent in many of the art's practitioners.

Thus, beside giving you lots of love, I have told Robert, there is no communication needed between you and me here on.

I choose to not associate with those who has no faith in WCK. and who down play WCK, and Down play WCK's ancestors or Sifus from all lineages.

You can choose to do whatever you like. I practice WCK as a fighting method, as a *martial art*. Who has the more "faith" -- the guy going down night after night, mixing it up with MMAists 20 years his junior, trying to make his WCK work, putting in the work and taking the punishment, etc. or the guy hooked up to the brainwave machine, practicing qi gong, sure that he has the answers to how to make WCK work, etc.? If you have faith in WCK, then visit a MMA gym and put your faith on the line.

I make myself clear openly in this forum. Here on you walk your path and I walk mine.
.

Hendrik, I have always walked my own path and will continue to do so.

Good luck and so long with lot of love. It is not that you are a bad person but since we dont walk the same path there is no need to waste energy.

This will my last post in KFO replying you on this matter.

The old I'll-take-my-ball-and-go-home approach. OK. When people can't present evidence to support their views, they usually do one of two things -- begin with the adhominem attacks or refuse to engage in further discussion (both are just tactics to avoid having to face the same hard, unanswerable questions).

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 04:10 PM

Why reply on wck.com when the discussion is here?! -----

You ask the same question in WCK and that have been replied but you ask it here again. What is the point?

How clear can I make this: BECAUSE WHAT YOU WANT TO MEASURE IS NOT FIGHTING WITH WCK SKILL.

Who cares if you can alter the brain waves if you still suck at WCK? ------ T

Are you a WCner?

Are you still do WCK?

Do you do SLT, CK, BJ?

if yes dont you want to know what is those training do for you?

If you no longer train in WCK, what is the point even in this forum?

We test what we are trying to develop. -----T

Sure, what is your SLT develop? how to test that? how effective is your development?

Tell us here how often and how long do you practice SLT ?

In martial arts, we are trying to develop our fighting skills. Maybe what you do lowers blood pressure. --------T

There is no contradiction of condition one to have lower blood pressure and better shape. Because healty body and and better shape always aids one's physical activity.

Great. But that's not *martial* art. ------T

Sure, then by a m16.

If you or anyone else can't show that what you are talking about develops significant gains in fighting skill (using WCK), then your other measurements have no significance. -----T

that you dont know.
and you have no idea because you always start everything with "if" speculation and negative projection. without knowing what is going on and knowing what I am talking about.

How do you measure fighting? Easy -- they do in in every combative sport (judo, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, MT, etc.) -- by seeing what level of opponent you can consistently hold your own against. ----- T

As for fighting, I experience first hand what is fighting because I have paticipate in Kyokushin Ko open. thus, I know what it takes to KO others and what it takes to condition one's body to not get KO.

speaking of fighting,
could one got beat a weak 10 year old or a weak 70 year old, and claim oneself as the best fighter.

Again, are you a WCner?

the topic of this threat is Wing Chun - Development of a martial art. NOT Terence believe MMA, BJJ.

Like in any athletic activity, you measure your performance. How can we tell how good a tennis player is? By his brainwaves? LOL! No, by how well he plays in relation to other tennis players. ------T

if your brainwaves and your heart rythm is totally screw up similar to a person in anxiety state. how the heck you could even do thinking right? not to mention playing tennis?

and HOW THE HECK YOU know you ARE NOT IN A NEVOUS ANXIETY STATE AND/ OR HOW DO YOur training could aid you to get out of that state, if your state cannot be measured and verified and repeat?

No, I love WCK; I don't love the nonsense associated with it. Magical thinking is not a part of WCK, but it does seem to be very prevalent in many of the art's practitioners.-------- T

Is it NONSENSE or you dont have any SCIENTIFIC sense?

Is it MAGICAL Thinking or it is you who have blind mind set?

Again? Do you still do WCK? if yes, Do you Do SLT? if yes, tell me how effective is your SLT training?

if not, then what do you discuss about? you have no experience? and What is WCK? you dont know.

You can choose to do whatever you like. ------T

Sure, otherwise, I would not post what I post.

I practice WCK as a fighting method, as a *martial art*. ----T

Excellent. why not?

Who has the more "faith" -- the guy going down night after night, mixing it up with MMAists 20 years his junior, trying to make his WCK work, putting in the work and taking the punishment, etc.

or the guy hooked up to the brainwave machine, practicing qi gong, sure that he has the answers to how to make WCK work, etc.? If you have faith in WCK, then visit a MMA gym and put your faith on the line. ------T

Faith in what? WCK? MMA? read your own post and find out.

if I were This person, I will quit WCK because this person have clearly lost to MMA as indicate in your post above and keep program himself and others to justified MMA is the only standard.

as for hooked up to the brainwave machine, Heart rate variation rythm, search into TRaditional Chinese internal art, That is to find out what SLT training Can and/or Cannot do to in a scientific way. Dont any WCners would like to find out if the SLT training is effective in condition one or not?

If you are a WCNer dont you like to know if you are wasting your time or not in the SLT training?

So, one guy above is no longer have faith in WCK and the other one is trying to find out how effective those set training are.

if you still do SLT and have no idea if it help you. what is the point?
if you no longer do SLT, the core of WCK. why do you even discuss here?

Hendrik, I have always walked my own path and will continue to do so. ------T

That Sure is respectatble.

The old I'll-take-my-ball-and-go-home approach. OK. When people can't present evidence to support their views, they usually do one of two things -- begin with the adhominem attacks or refuse to engage in further discussion (both are just tactics to avoid having to face the same hard, unanswerable questions).------T

that is your speculation.

WE today could know what SLT training could or could not do for us with Modern Technology. That is a fact that everyone could buy a machine and check it out for themself and make any kind of modification and or adjustment needed to get better result.

That is my message to the public and you somehow could not comprehend.

May be you got shock so serious from the MMA that you have forgotten if there is no SLT training in WCK, there is no WCK.

Knifefighter

03-08-2007, 04:48 PM

1, so what is scientific if not it is about measurable, verifiable, repeatable? tell us here.
These are only parts of the scientific method. Using only parts without using the whole does not make it scientific.

is HRV stress response? is EEG stress response or STATE? get that clear before reply..
Actually, what you need to get straight are if these have anything to do with fighting? If they do, then you have to determine what levels are the most beneficial to fighting. Lowering (or raising) may have either a beneficial or detrimental effect on fighting.

It may be that what the ancient CMA practioners thought of as the optimal state for fighting actually was not. We really don't have any hard data on what this ideal state is, although most sports scientists believe it is somewhere between being completely stressed out and completely relaxed and probably varies between activities.

Same with if you dont even know you are doing the right thing to shift gear or can you even shift gear. what is the point to talk about racing the car?.

The first thing to do would be to determine, using the scientific method, the optimal gear to be in... no just to assume the highest or lowest gear is the best.

and then when we now know one's STATE could be measured. NOw, you are saying "Doesn't have anything to do with fighting." .
Measuring someone's state when he is in a relaxed setting doens't have anything to do with his state when he is fighting.

However, if you are proposing a method for measuring these states while he is fighting, now you are getting somewhere. At least then you can start to use the scientific method to begin to determine the ideal fighting state.

if you dont even have any idea of whether your training could let you switch to the Zone as you like it when needed.
The problem is you don't know what the ideal zone is and whether or not it is the same for everyone.

What to talk about fighting? you have no idea if your training is effective or not at all; and if it cant be measure and repeat that is flying blind faith, not scientific.
Effectiveness is measured against others. Without others, there is no fighting.

How to measure fight?
There are many ways to design experiments to determine this.

if you are born strong you win.
Again, it would be easy to design experiments to determine this.

So, how do you measure fighting? how to scientifically measure fighting? Tell me that?
The same ways one would design any experiment. You could do ramdomized, controlled group studies, data mining, or any number of other experimental designs.

anerlich

03-08-2007, 05:05 PM

Please dont take me serious,

As if :rolleyes:

Actually, the Scientology reference isn't a bad one. The E meter is a biofeedback machine too, and I'm betting it's about as efficacious in context as Hendrik's machines are in his.

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 06:53 PM

These are only parts of the scientific method. Using only parts without using the whole does not make it scientific.-------

measurement and repeatable are scientific method. measurement and repeatable has no parts or whole. measurement and repeatable is measurement and repeatable.

The question is could one measure and is it repeatable?

Actually, what you need to get straight are if these have anything to do with fighting? If they do, then you have to determine what levels are the most beneficial to fighting. Lowering (or raising) may have either a beneficial or detrimental effect on fighting. -----

Do you do SLT ? if yes, could you tell us what SLT have anything to do with fighting in a scientific way?
if not then why do you practice SLT?

It may be that what the ancient CMA practioners thought of as the optimal state for fighting actually was not. We really don't have any hard data on what this ideal state is, although most sports scientists believe it is somewhere between being completely stressed out and completely relaxed and probably varies between activities. ------

since you want to go scientific, why do you do SLT without any hard data?
isnt that flying blind faith?

The first thing to do would be to determine, using the scientific method, the optimal gear to be in... no just to assume the highest or lowest gear is the best.-----

until one could measure the element how could one determine? what is the scientific method without first start with measure-able?

Measuring someone's state when he is in a relaxed setting doens't have anything to do with his state when he is fighting.
However, if you are proposing a method for measuring these states while he is fighting, now you are getting somewhere. At least then you can start to use the scientific method to begin to determine the ideal fighting state.-------

as soon as one could measure one's state, ofcause one could take as much data in various states as needed to observe what is one's training and progress do.

The problem is you don't know what the ideal zone is and whether or not it is the same for everyone. ------

It doesnt matter.
it is about using the measurement capability to aids how one could train and to make one better and progress. It is about how one could excell oneself.

now, if one doesnt have data at all. so do one know what is one doing?

Effectiveness is measured against others. Without others, there is no fighting.------

and how to measure that scientific ly? what is the criterion?

Wrong without others there is still fighting. fighting within yourself. Dont believe me? observe yourself and your EEG. That drain lots of your energy.

There are many ways to design experiments to determine this.------

Sure, and present as many as possible so everyone benifit.

By shooting down my proposal of things are measureable now is not going to promote scientific but blind faith.

Again, it would be easy to design experiments to determine this.

The same ways one would design any experiment. You could do ramdomized, controlled group studies, data mining, or any number of other experimental designs.-------

see, it is always easy to be generalized and speak without speaking anything.
If you have an excellent idea share it. if not, we all could sit and critics others on anything. too thin, too tall, too short , too fat, too.... what solution one offer? none.

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 06:58 PM

As if :rolleyes:

Actually, the Scientology reference isn't a bad one. The E meter is a biofeedback machine too, and I'm betting it's about as efficacious in context as Hendrik's machines are in his.

E meter can do some general job if you could screen out its dependent factors which make the reading not stable. and have a difficulties to take measurement in motion.

HRV and EEG are much much more stable and much much more specific then E meter and different type of machine is for different monitoring.

you are wrong on effectiveness, you could hold the E meter sensor hard or if it is a hot sweaty day to influence the Emeter.

BTW, E meter is only measure the Resistance changes of your body. the HRV and EEG direction measure the specific.

I know that because I have test drive them all.

you could build an Emeter if you like to

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/homer-emeter.gif

anyone, anyone who claim they could do Dan Dien breathing, hook them up with HVR let them get to thier best position, post, even laying down whatever they claim they could get into the Dan Dien breathing state. and read the HVR, there the truth will show.

Thus, it is worthed to hook one up after one train in so called internal art or meditation or esoteric this and that qi.... see for oneself does one can even do the basic?

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 07:34 PM

Dont you intend your SLT training for conditioning.....

we now have the following HRV technology to see if SLT training is possible as it claim.

until one could monitor and break the neural circuitry cycle, one is often trap in one's old sub-conscious habit of leads to a depletion of one's energy and clouds one's judgment...
fighting ability is limited by oneself in a big way...

Thus, the ancestor said, Using silence to lead the action, could one get into the silence to do re-programing? otherwise, one is one's own limit....

"The Cycle of Perception–Reprogramming Neural Circuitry

Your perceptions underlie how you think and feel about the person or issue that you are dealing with. The resulting thoughts and emotions, but especially the emotions, cause numerous physiological changes in the body. These changes can be measured in the nervous system, hormonal system, heart and blood pressure. These changes, in turn, feed back and affect what is called the neural circuitry of the brain. The state of your neural circuitry, in turn, affects your perception. Your neural circuitry consists of neural pathways in the brain and body, pathways that are developed and reinforced to the degree that we use them. Whether you "learn" a healthy response or a stressful reaction, you are "hard-wiring" this pattern into your system through repetition.

Here’s an illustration of how the cycle works. If you get frustrated because traffic was unusually heavy on the way to work, that feeling causes the sympathetic nervous system to increase your heart rate and instruct the adrenal glands to secrete adrenaline and other hormones into the blood stream. These changes then affect the neural circuits in the brain. You are then more sensitive to the next stressful situation and more likely to have a negative reaction. If you repeat this pattern, the neural pathways in the brain are reinforced and your emotional response becomes automatic so that you can get stuck in repeating, inefficient thought loops such as worry and anxiety. This then leads to a depletion of your energy and clouds your judgment. Freeze-Frame allows you to break the cycle, and with practice you can begin to retrain and reprogram the neural circuitry so that you are not the victim of your own thought loops and inappropriate self-defeating emotional reactions, but can build new intelligence into your system"

http://www.futurehealth.org/Freezeframe.htm

Thus, I propose, the next phase of WCK development is about knowing the HEART.

Since as the Kuen kuit said, Punch is issue from the Heart. as figthing starts from the Heart.
Know thy HVR to break your pattern in SLT training.

it takes only $250 to start the new journey for better training and better daily living. Nope we dont need fighting for fighting is often cause be our own unwanted pattern. and if that unwanted pattern remove, one is free.

anerlich

03-08-2007, 07:59 PM

If you get frustrated because traffic was unusually heavy on the way to work,

Yeah right, I really want to be commuting when a sizable proportion of my fellow travellers are wired up to these "more reliable" E-Meters (which is all they are). There'll be crashes all over the place, but everyone will be crashing very CALMLY.

Why not forget about all this stuff and just use the tried and tested tinfoil beanie?

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 08:18 PM

Yeah right, I really want to be commuting when a sizable proportion of my fellow travellers are wired up to these "more reliable" E-Meters (which is all they are). There'll be crashes all over the place, but everyone will be crashing very CALMLY.

Why not forget about all this stuff and just use the tried and tested tinfoil beanie?

Those who has broken thier negative projection pattern dont have to wired up after 1 hour.

Those who always have negative projection and rather holding it are the one needs to wired up all day long.

Which group you rather belongs to?

byond1

03-08-2007, 08:38 PM

Hendrik

I think your idea to use the modern equipment is a great idea. And i more than willing to try it. But Suggesting $300 or $1500 ,for a country where most middle class americans live pay check to pay check, is not looking at the realistic struggles that most of us go through. I manage a department that offers tech support of cox communications. With paying my rent, food, car insurance, car payment, and gas for 1 month, allows me to save $150 per month, it would take me a very long time to save $1500 for a piece of medical equipment. By the time i saved it, most probably my car would need repairs, and the money would have to be diverted.

You have to remember most of us have to struggle, very hard for very little.

"The Cycle of Perception–Reprogramming Neural Circuitry

I agree with this completly. Good stuff.

Brian

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 10:00 PM

Brian,

I think your idea to use the modern equipment is a great idea. ---------

I search for decades to see what is a good way to benifit the general public's training; so that everyone has a chance to progress and understand what the ancestors said in the kuen kuit, even if one doesnt have top sifu similar to the ancient time to coach one everyday.

Now, we got to have these modern equipment, these are excellent aids.

If you follow the Gay Hendricks breathwork teaching and using the HRV and EEG.
after a year or so of formal training (sure you still need direction from an experience sifu) and then you read the kuen kuit, and you migh right a way say " a ha" so this what the ancestors are talking about. and you might find so the SLT and Emei 12 Zhuang is giving the same instructions. however you mght not realized of these until the modern equipment help you to aware of your own body and mind.

There and after then, you will have no more doubt disregard of if 1000000 people tell you otherwise. because you know.

See, nature is nature. doesnt matter if one realized what is the nature from reading an ancient kuen kuit or reading the reading of an HRV meter.

the modern equipments are good training aids.

They are event good for Buddhist monks to check thier own progress on thier meditation skill. I know top meditators use these machine to teach thier students.

And i more than willing to try it.
But Suggesting $300 or $1500 ,for a country where most middle class americans live pay check to pay check, is not looking at the realistic struggles that most of us go through. I manage a department that offers tech support of cox communications. With paying my rent, food, car insurance, car payment, and gas for 1 month, allows me to save $150 per month, it would take me a very long time to save $1500 for a piece of medical equipment. By the time i saved it, most probably my car would need repairs, and the money would have to be diverted. --------

Why so many negative and poverty thinking?

your world is fill with abundance if you think so, your world is fill with poverty if you think so.

if God or Buddha will grand you what you think. Then, why use the mind to think poverty, lack, and negative? since ask and one is given, you ask for negative and lack and poverty. you are given exactly what you asking for.

It is very scientific, if you direct your car to north it wont go to south.

Is this the way SLT teach one to use the Yee or intention? NOPE. if you keep thinking you will lost you will lost because you ask for lost and given lost.

As it was said in kuen kuit, he who is afraid of being beaten will be beaten. if one keep thinking about Beaten every day, then one is manifest being beaten. Why not thinking peace with ease and win and happy and helping others?

So, it is about ask and it is given.
how do you use your Yee or intention?
how do you manifest ?

if you dont know how, then you cant do SLT or SNT, SLT is about cut down all the little and negative noise and manifest as you like it with focus and sharp intention.

if you keep thinking what you dont want what you dont want will keep show up because you keep thinking it. That simple.

Thus, you need the EEG to see could you handle the noise of the mind? and only after you could handle the noise of your mind, you could activate the 8 special medirians. Everything is scientific and govern by the law of cause and effect. Nothing misterious and all those Iching speculation doesnt work because until one sees the original face, one doesnt know. not to mention, if one dont even know how to use one's mind, then how could one sees the original face?

You have to remember most of us have to struggle, very hard for very little. -----

You could just ask " Hendrik I would love to try it but I am not capable now, could you help? I might even send you my set. big deal? "

or there might be some WCK lover willing to help and put a set in his school so that others can come and rent it for a few hours with a few dollars?

There are lots of alternative, why think struggle and very hard and very little? why not think ease, peace, abundance.... and helping each others? your life, your choice not others.

NOw, if I dont share with you there is a possibility of using the modern equipments as aids to attain the state suppose to attain in SLT then that is the real trouble and real struggle for one doesnt have a single hope to know what is what. so what is good to train the SLT/SNT for a life time and dont know what it can do?

BTW, how could one attain the advance SLT attaiment if one has already limiting oneself with one's own intention at the begining. If the eagle think it can fly then it cant fly. That simple.

Doesnt it said, Kuen Choong Sum Fatt? or punch issue from heart? so, if your heart think it is not capable, you dont have the punch already.

This is about the handling of Yee. the open secret of SLT/SNT but most of us cant do it because we are not discipline enough to intend different and break the Neural Circuitry.

This is a part of Internal tRaining of SLT where we (myself include) not aware of until being show by experience sifu.

Yes, SLT is internal. HRV is internal. Yee training via EEG is internal and we are so lucky to be born in this era that we could get hold of these modern equipment to aids us.

"The Cycle of Perception–Reprogramming Neural Circuitry
I agree with this completly. Good stuff. --------B

what to agree or dis-agree, those are useless.

The point is if there is a way, there is a hope. do it and check it out to see if it work.

and stop thinking negative, struggle, little, lack, figthing....

instead,

think positive, ease, big, abundance, peace...

it is called praise the spring instead of praise the winter , isnt it?

peace

Hendrik

03-08-2007, 10:09 PM

Brian,

I think your idea to use the modern equipment is a great idea. ---------

I search for decades to see what is a good way to benifit the general public's training; so that everyone has a chance to progress and understand what the ancestors said in the kuen kuit, even if one doesnt have top sifu similar to the ancient time to coach one everyday.

Now, we got to have these modern equipment, these are excellent aids.

If you follow the Gay Hendricks breathwork teaching and using the HRV and EEG.
after a year or so of formal training (sure you still need direction from an experience sifu) and then you read the kuen kuit, and you migh right a way say " a ha" so this what the ancestors are talking about. and you might find so the SLT and Emei 12 Zhuang is giving the same instructions. however you are not realized them until the modern equipment help you to aware of your own body and mind.

There and after then, you will have no more doubt disregard of if 1000000 people tell you otherwise. because you know.

See, nature is nature. the modern equipments are good training aids.

They are event good for Buddhist monks to check thier own progress on thier meditation skill.

And i more than willing to try it.
But Suggesting $300 or $1500 ,for a country where most middle class americans live pay check to pay check, is not looking at the realistic struggles that most of us go through. I manage a department that offers tech support of cox communications. With paying my rent, food, car insurance, car payment, and gas for 1 month, allows me to save $150 per month, it would take me a very long time to save $1500 for a piece of medical equipment. By the time i saved it, most probably my car would need repairs, and the money would have to be diverted. --------

Why so many negative and poverty thinking?

your world is fill with abundance if you think so, your world is fill with poverty if you think so.

if God or Buddha will grand you what you think. Then, why use the mind to think poverty, lack, and negative? since ask and one is given, you ask for negative and lack and poverty. you are given exactly what you asking for.

It is very scientific, if you direct your car to north it wont go to south.

Is this the way SLT teach one to use the Yee or intention? NOPE. if you keep thinking you will lost you will lost because you ask for lost and given lost.

As it was said in kuen kuit, he who is afraid of being beaten will be beaten. if one keep thinking about Beaten every day, then one is manifest being beaten. Why not thinking peace with ease and win and happy and helping others?

So, it is about ask and it is given.
how do you use your Yee or intention?
how do you manifest ?

if you dont know how, then you cant do SLT or SNT, SLT is about cut down all the little and negative noise and manifest as you like it with focus and sharp intention.

if you keep thinking what you dont want what you dont want will keep show up because you keep thinking it. That simple.

Thus, you need the EEG to see could you handle the noise of the mind? and only after you could handle the noise of your mind, you could activate the 8 special medirians. Everything is scientific and govern by the law of cause and effect. Nothing misterious and all those Iching speculation doesnt work because until one sees the original face, one doesnt know. not to mention, if one dont even know how to use one's mind, then how could one sees the original face?

You have to remember most of us have to struggle, very hard for very little. -----

You could just ask " Hendrik I would love to try it but I am not capable now, could you help? I might even send you my set. big deal? "

or there might be some WCK lover willing to help and put a set in his school so that others can come and rent it for a few hours with a few dollars?

There are lots of alternative, why think struggle and very hard and very little? why not think ease, peace, abundance.... and people love to help others? if the father of the USA such as Washington think like you then we dont have the USA.

NOw, if I dont share with you there is a possibility of using the modern equipments as aids to attain the state suppose to attain in SLT then that is the real trouble and real struggle for one doesnt have a single hope to know what is what. so what is good to train the SLT/SNT for a life time and dont know what it can do?

BTW, how could one attain the advance SLT attaiment if one has already limiting oneself with one's own intention at the begining.

if the eagle think it cant fly then it cant fly. That simple.

Human doesnt have wings but they think they could fly, thus they have boing 747. Got it?

Doesnt it said, Kuen Choong Sum Fatt? or punch issue from heart? so, if your heart think it is not capable, you dont have the punch already.

This is about the handling of Yee. the open secret of SLT/SNT but most of us cant do it because we are not discipline enough to intend different and break the Neural Circuitry.

This is a part of Internal tRaining of SLT where we (myself include) not aware of until being show by experience sifu.

Yes, SLT is internal. HRV is internal. Yee training via EEG is internal and we are so lucky to be born in this era that we could get hold of these modern equipment to aids us.

"The Cycle of Perception–Reprogramming Neural Circuitry
I agree with this completly. Good stuff. --------B

what to agree or dis-agree, those are useless.

The point is if there is a way, there is a hope. do it and check it out to see if it work.

and stop thinking negative, struggle, little, lack, figthing....

instead,

think positive, ease, big, abundance, peace...

it is called praise the spring instead of praise the winter , isnt it?

Spring is warm, abundance, ease to grow, and love.
Winter is cold.....

You manifest spring or winter as you like it.

and the first secret of Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit is HOW to use one's Yee or Intention.

simple right? but how many of us will believe it is so simple?

peace

t_niehoff

03-09-2007, 07:46 AM

Are you a WCner? Are you still do WCK? Do you do SLT, CK, BJ? if yes dont you want to know what is those training do for you?

You avoid the issue. The question is does the training we do make us better fighters using the WCK method. If you can't answer that question, and with evidence, than all you are doing is speculating, intellectualizing what you believe will develop skills. Regardless of what you train, how you train, etc., you need to see the results to know whether or not that training is working, how well it is working, etc. No one can know if they are developing better fighting skills unless they fight -- it's impossible.

FWIW, the forms are for teaching/learning, they are not training. No one can develop fighting skills from a form or linked set.

If you no longer train in WCK, what is the point even in this forum?

I do train WCK. But you don't. Doing forms, the traditional drills, etc. is not training -- that is the learning process. This is why people can do those things forever and not develop fighting skills: they mistake the learning for training. Training requires you actually use your method, it's tools, etc.

Sure, what is your SLT develop? how to test that? how effective is your development? Tell us here how often and how long do you practice SLT ?

I could develop a form for tennis or for basketball or for boxing -- practicing that form forever would never develop me as a good tennis player or basketball player or boxer. Once again, you are assuming how often and how long someone practices the SLT has anything to do with skill development. But you can't provide evidence of that. You can't show that this increases someone's fighting skills. And that's because it doesn't.

In fact, your assumption is completely wrong in my view. The more you practice a form (model) the worse your WCK will be! The forms provide a "model" or example of the movement, technique, tactic, whatever. However, WCK is an open skill (like any fighting method) so it's movements, etc. need to be adapted to the moment. For example, there is no "correct" model for a forehand in tennis since in play we will constanntly need to alter/adapt that model for the situation. We are taught a model as a beginner to give us a place to start our practice, but we move beyond that model. If we remain stuck in that model we can never develop good tennis. Both tennis and WCK (and any fighting method) are open skills.

There is no contradiction of condition one to have lower blood pressure and better shape. Because healty body and and better shape always aids one's physical activity.

Of course being in better physical condition will aid any physical activity we do, but there is more to developing WCK as a martial art than getting in better shape. You also need to show that your training develops those things.

Great. But that's not *martial* art. ------T

Sure, then by a m16.

Hendrik, if you want to practice some health development activity devoid of any *martial* aspect, then why concern yourself with martial arts in the first place? Do yoga or something along those lines. Why take up swimming if you don't want to get into the water? You keep saying (above) that I am not doing WCK. No, you are the one not *doing* WCK. WCK is a martial art, a fighting method.

that you dont know. and you have no idea because you always start everything with "if" speculation and negative projection. without knowing what is going on and knowing what I am talking about.

Anyone can make claims. How can we know if a claim is true or not, except by evidence? So I am asking for evidence. Asking for proof (evidence) of a claim is not a "negative projection". The evidence I am concerned with is something that shows your training methods will develop our WCK fighting skills. Brain waves, etc. doesn't show that.

As for fighting, I experience first hand what is fighting because I have paticipate in Kyokushin Ko open. thus, I know what it takes to KO others and what it takes to condition one's body to not get KO.

Knowing how to box or fight with karate doesn't mean a person knows how to make their WCK work or how to train it to work.

speaking of fighting,
could one got beat a weak 10 year old or a weak 70 year old, and claim oneself as the best fighter.

This sort of question shows that you see martial art and WCK as different than other sorts of athletic activity. This is magical thinking. Would you ask that question of a tennis or basketball player or a boxer? Of course not. We measure our skill by the quality (level of skill) of the opposition.

Again, are you a WCner? the topic of this threat is Wing Chun - Development of a martial art. NOT Terence believe MMA, BJJ.

And what you don't want to accept is that all martial arts, like all open skill athletic activities, abide by the same developmental process. Boxing, BJJ, and WCK are different methods of fighting, use different strategies, tactics, tools, etc. but as we are human beings, we learn and develop open motor skills the same way.

if your brainwaves and your heart rythm is totally screw up similar to a person in anxiety state. how the heck you could even do thinking right? not to mention playing tennis?

A person can be calm and relaxed and still not have any skill playing tennis. But by playing lots of tennis (which you must do to become good), you will become familiar with playing the game and naturally relax and be calm. You are going about it ass-backwards.

and HOW THE HECK YOU know you ARE NOT IN A NEVOUS ANXIETY STATE AND/ OR HOW DO YOur training could aid you to get out of that state, if your state cannot be measured and verified and repeat?

A person knows if they are anxious or nervous by "feeling" it. Familiarity with the situation is what makes us able to relax and be calm. Look at any good athlete -- they are relaxed, smooth, etc. and that comes from doing the activity, from being well-acquainted with the stresses, etc.

Is it NONSENSE or you dont have any SCIENTIFIC sense? Is it MAGICAL Thinking or it is you who have blind mind set?

One thing magical thinkers love to do is say they are being scientific! If you or anyone says this or that way of training produces results, just show the results. If someone produced a Bigfoot, I'd believe in Bigfoot. So it's easy -- just show that what you say produces significant gains in fighting skill (using WCK). Simple.

Again? Do you still do WCK? if yes, Do you Do SLT? if yes, tell me how effective is your SLT training?

if not, then what do you discuss about? you have no experience? and What is WCK? you dont know.

You can keep saying I don't know WCK -- which I guess means that you do, since you can say what WCK is. But this is just words. Anyone, you or me included, can say we know what WCK is, or how WCK should be done, or how it should be practiced, etc. but that is all words, claims. The proof is in the *doing* . If you can't make your WCK work against decent level fighters, if you can't do it, how can you say you *know* it? So as I said, I'll be in LA in June 2008 ti visit Robert -- we can both go mix it up with some MMAists and see who "knows".

If you are a WCNer dont you like to know if you are wasting your time or not in the SLT training? So, one guy above is no longer have faith in WCK and the other one is trying to find out how effective those set training are. if you still do SLT and have no idea if it help you. what is the point?
if you no longer do SLT, the core of WCK. why do you even discuss here?

The only way to evaluate any training method is via the results you obtain. So, if someone is not fighting, they can't possibly know whether they are getting results (that their WCK fighting skills are improving) or not. You call SLT the core of WCK -- how do you *know*?

WE today could know what SLT training could or could not do for us with Modern Technology. That is a fact that everyone could buy a machine and check it out for themself and make any kind of modification and or adjustment needed to get better result.

That is my message to the public and you somehow could not comprehend.

May be you got shock so serious from the MMA that you have forgotten if there is no SLT training in WCK, there is no WCK.

I understand your message, but your message is wrong. That technology can't tell us if we are developing better fighting skills. If that were the case, we wouldn't need boxing or MT or BJJ or MMA matches anymore: we could just hook everyone up to an EEG! LOL! You can only see that by fighting with quality opponents.

In WCK (or any martial art) a person's "understanding" is limited by and determined by their level of skill -- fighting skill using that method. You may believe that you "understand" that "there is no WCK without SLT training" but your understanding is limited and determined by what you can do.

Hendrik

03-09-2007, 09:05 AM

You avoid the issue. ------ T

You dont get it.

and I approve for the way you think. That is fine.
I dont think any further discussion is needed after this final reply of mine.

The question is does the training we do make us better fighters using the WCK method. ----- T

Who is we? Your WCK is not other's wck.

Does you WCK method makes you a better fighter? You tell me.
if you cant answer that by yourself.
Ask your WCK sifu.

If you can't answer that question, and with evidence, than all you are doing is speculating, intellectualizing what you believe will develop skills. Regardless of what you train, how you train, etc., -------T

Can you answer your question yourself before post to others?

as for me, how can scientifically using modern technology to be able to measure and examine the real data of ONE's mind/body state is speculating, intellectualizing?

you didnt get what I was proposing to the public ---- using modern technology to measure one's state thus one could monitor and know one's effectiveness in training.

And after so many reply to you, you didnt get it. and might never will.
So, let it be.

you need to see the results to know whether or not that training is working, how well it is working, etc. No one can know if they are developing better fighting skills unless they fight -- it's impossible. ---------T

Sure, result is the way, and doesnt be able to measure scientifically is the path way to examine result? be it partial or full?

FWIW, the forms are for teaching/learning, they are not training. No one can develop fighting skills from a form or linked set. -----T

NOT TRAINING? NOT developing ....? That is your view, ok.

I do train WCK. But you don't. ----- T

YOu dont know about me.

Doing forms, the traditional drills, etc. is not training -- that is the learning process. ----- T

whatever your view is that is great for you.

So, do you still do SLT? if not do you still practice WCK? Why avoid this question?

This is why people can do those things forever and not develop fighting skills: they mistake the learning for training. Training requires you actually use your method, it's tools, etc. ------T

YOu have no idea what you are talking about. if fact you dont even know what is WCK based on the evident of your post above.

Body conditioning and application training go together in Traditional Chinese martial art.

Application is just a partial part same with body conditioning, They both support each others. There is very clear.

Stop think other mistake this and that and you are going to be the savior of the world policing and correcting others. In fact, you dont know WCK. it is an evident base on your posts.

a question for you is ,

do you really would like to help WCK

or

due to your defeated by MMA you have lost faith in WCK;
but feeling quilty to jump boat.
So, you generate all type of problems of WCK to subsconciously support/prepare you to jump boat someday? with a reason WCK is not as good as MMA?

You see, if I were you. If I think MMA is better why do I have to spend my life mooning and wine-ing about WCK ? wasting my own energy and create energy waste for others. I just jump boat. who cares?

if you love, WCK, I suggest you go back and learn more from your WCK sifu before you even post again. because you dont know much about WCK. That is certain.

I could develop a form for tennis or for basketball or for boxing -- practicing that form forever would never develop me as a good tennis player or basketball player or boxer. ------T

sure, you could develop anything you like.

But that is not WCK.
and you have not much idea what technology is embeded in WCK. That is certain.

Once again, you are assuming how often and how long someone practices the SLT has anything to do with skill development.-------T

I dont assume,

you great sigung late GM Yip Man do SLT/SNT for a life time.
and you sifu has post his view on SLT/SNT training.

Why dont you check it out know what is going on before you post?

But you can't provide evidence of that. You can't show that this increases someone's fighting skills. And that's because it doesn't. ------ T

the person you need to address this issue is your great sigung late GM Yip Man and your sisuk gung GM TST.

My question for you is still, do you practice SLT/SNT or do you even practice WCK according to Gm Yip's teaching or tradition. if not, then what WCK are you practice?

In fact, your assumption is completely wrong in my view. --------T

Who assume?

and sure in your view beside MMA what is right?

The more you practice a form (model) the worse your WCK will be! ------T

Tell that to Gm Yip Man, he did that for a life time. and tell that to your sifu too.

The forms provide a "model" or example of the movement, technique, tactic, whatever. However, WCK is an open skill (like any fighting method) so it's movements, etc. need to be adapted to the moment. -----T

what is WCK is not up to you to define.

with you dont know your EEG data how the heck do you kow you could adapted to the moment?

See, who is speculating here? you dont know what is WCK, then you dont have measrue data to show you could switch to this moment at will.

so, what to discuss?

For example, there is no "correct" model for a forehand in tennis since in play we will constanntly need to alter/adapt that model for the situation. ------T

You dont even have basic data for your own body interm of heart beat, brain wave. what to talk about alter/adapt for the situation?

That is similar to you couldnt even proof you know how to shift gear,

and you start trying to advice the racers on how getting into this or that gear for the situation.

you see, what you do is no different then watchin football on TV with a beer and thinking how you would play in the field.

We are taught a model as a beginner to give us a place to start our practice, but we move beyond that model. If we remain stuck in that model we can never develop good tennis. Both tennis and WCK (and any fighting method) are open skills. ------T

Terence, this all are BS mental Mu$terBation.

what model? what to talk about model?

if you cant proof your ability with HRV and EEG data that you could shift mental and physical state. What to talk about model? what to talk about move beyond that model? what to move? what is beyond? you dont even have basic ability---- the ability of shifting state.

Thus, without using the modern equipement how the heck you even know if you have the basic handling?

Of course being in better physical condition will aid any physical activity we do, but there is more to developing WCK as a martial art than getting in better shape. You also need to show that your training develops those things. ------

measurement with modern equipment on mental and physical state is beyond better physical conditioning.

it be able to tell if one or one's training could lead one to altering body and mind state and how effective is one or one's training.

if you dont have that hard data, then what to talk about martial art? you might not even started you training yet contrary to your speculation.

so, do you still do SLT? do your SLT train you to be able to switch states? some's such as GM TST's does how about yours? Check it out with the EEG and HRV.
before that why speculate?

Hendrik, if you want to practice some health development activity devoid of any *martial* aspect, then why concern yourself with martial arts in the first place? ---------

my path is clearly posted in this threat. it is you not comprehen what I am proposing.

Do yoga or something along those lines. Why take up swimming if you don't want to get into the water? You keep saying (above) that I am not doing WCK. No, you are the one not *doing* WCK. WCK is a martial art, a fighting method. ----- T

If I were you, i would not make a fool of myself trying to be expert on something I have no idea with and keeping push in with my own speculation.

you dont know me, you have no idea what I am doing. So, why even commenting?

Anyone can make claims. How can we know if a claim is true or not, except by evidence? So I am asking for evidence. Asking for proof (evidence) of a claim is not a "negative projection". The evidence I am concerned with is something that shows your training methods will develop our WCK fighting skills. Brain waves, etc. doesn't show that.--------T

hahaha, you have no idea, if you cant turn on and turn off certain Brain wave, you cant switch to this moment. that simple.

and that also show you have no idea what you are talking about.

in the same token, if you cant shift your HRV then you dont have much handling on your physical state either.

Knowing how to box or fight with karate doesn't mean a person knows how to make their WCK work or how to train it to work. -----T

Sure, until you are in GM Yip Man level than we talk what is what. for now, you still need to go learn from your sifu.

Knifefighter

03-09-2007, 10:28 AM

If I ever want to start a cult where I brainwash all my converts, Hendrick will be the first one I try to get to join.

Hendrik

03-09-2007, 10:45 AM

If I ever want to start a cult where I brainwash all my converts, Hendrick will be the first one I try to get to join.

Cult leader takes away his/her followers rigth and freedom by control them via brain wash.

Hendrik shows scientific measurement and give the right and freedom of everyone back to them. So that everyone can measure and make thier own decision for thier own and set themself free.

If you couldnt even get that straight. you have no idea what is brainwash and cult is. hahaha :D

and thanks no thanks, I am not intereset to have followers or join anyone. i walk my own path and dont expect you walk mine.

Knifefighter

03-09-2007, 10:52 AM

Hendrik shows scientific measurement and give the right and freedom of everyone back to them.

Sure, until you are in GM Yip Man level than we talk what is what.

Speaking of being at YM's level and scientific measurement... what observable, objective evidence do you have that Yip Man was at a high level in terms of fighting?

leejunfan

03-09-2007, 10:55 AM

Speaking of being at YM's level and scientific measurement... what observable, objective evidence do you have that Yip Man was at a high level in terms of fighting?

OUCH!!! :eek: That's gonna rattle some cages :p

Hendrik

03-09-2007, 11:09 AM

Speaking of being at YM's level and scientific measurement... what observable, objective evidence do you have that Yip Man was at a high level in terms of fighting?

there are certain signature in physical action and posture that is associate with mental /physical states.

so, after one measure one's state and capability to handle them, one knows those signature.

and when one find that and even much more then one is capable is in GM YM's video. one knows GM Yip Man is much more then one in the level of attainment.

NOw, if you never measure you own state and dont have a sifu to coach you. and you dont even know the signature. then you are hopeless. why even bother to ask such a question about GM YM?

Those who know how to paint know how is other painters' level by just take a look.

and
if you dont even know about low level state switching, why even ask about Gm Yip's fighting?

you love mental speculation isnt it?

Knifefighter

03-09-2007, 11:24 AM

and when one find that and even much more then one is capable is in GM YM's video.

You've seen a video of Yip Man fighting?

t_niehoff

03-09-2007, 01:25 PM

If I were you, i would not make a fool of myself trying to be expert on something I have no idea with and keeping push in with my own speculation.

Example of the pot calling the kettle "black".

Hendrik, you keep talking as if you were some authority on WCK, as if you had "the answers." But you don't, and you can't unless you do the work. That work is getting out and using your WCK to fight/spar with decent people. A person can practice WCK for their entire life and never move beyond beginner unless they do the work. In fact, until you do that work, not only don't you have the "answers", you don't even understand the questions! That work is the real gung fu; that work is what makes what we do a martial art. Those questions and answers don't come from your sifu -- they can't. Those questions and answers come from your doing the work, the sparring/fighting with WCK. That work, the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu. When you do that work, you get results/feedback so there is no specualtion. You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers.

As I said, I'll be in LA in June, 2008, to visit Robert. I'll be more than happy to get together with you then.

Hendrik

03-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Example of the pot calling the kettle "black".

Hendrik, you keep talking as if you were some authority on WCK, as if you had "the answers." But you don't, and you can't unless you do the work. That work is getting out and using your WCK to fight/spar with decent people. A person can practice WCK for their entire life and never move beyond beginner unless they do the work. In fact, until you do that work, not only don't you have the "answers", you don't even understand the questions! That work is the real gung fu; that work is what makes what we do a martial art. Those questions and answers don't come from your sifu -- they can't. Those questions and answers come from your doing the work, the sparring/fighting with WCK.

That work, the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu.

When you do that work, you get results/feedback so there is no specualtion. You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers.

As I said, I'll be in LA in June, 2008, to visit Robert. I'll be more than happy to get together with you then.

1,

I have answered your June 2008 deal a few time both in WCK.com and here. I dont think it is neccesary to waste more energy since you simple dont read and comprehend.

2, I am proposing using modern technology to do measurement and it could be done. That is a fact. so, there is no such thing as authority or not authority issue. any one could buy a $250 machine and try for themself.
as if you like, get a machine and test for yourself.

3, you could define your WCK anyway you like. such as " the sparring/fighting, the application, is my sifu." and that is respectable since anyone is entitle to thier Localization Evolution.

however, similar to all the Traditional Chinese martial art practitioners, I dont have to buy your idea and what you post is certainly not what Traditional Chinese WCK is about.

Simply put, the ancient chinese in 1850 or before DONT create something which has application (tee) and no "body" (yong). ofcause you could call your WCK as Terence WCK but that is not a representation of WCK from the Red Boat.

4, as for, "You know. Speculation is when you don't do the work, but believe you have the answers." great. HRV and EEG machines are availble for everyone. Take a look at your own data. why speculate?

5, I have told Robert, there is no need for a communication between you and me here on because we simple living and speaking in different dimention.

You go your way, I walk mine. So long. This is the last post I will response to you. Thank you and lots of love.

peace and I rest this case.

t_niehoff

03-09-2007, 02:54 PM

How would Yip Man have done with Ramon Dekkers? ;) Fantasy vs. Reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3R4xtjl5b4

anerlich

03-09-2007, 09:12 PM

Those who has broken thier negative projection pattern dont have to wired up after 1 hour.

Those who always have negative projection and rather holding it are the one needs to wired up all day long.

Which group you rather belongs to?

This is a classic example of a false dichotomy.

Not all of us have "negative projection patterns". What you are discusiing sounds like "engrams" which the sicentologists would have us use the E Meter for. You keep bringing me back to this. Your methods have about as much chance of achivieing your purported aims as does the E Meter with those of Scientology.

Of course Scientology's main purpose is to gain followers; you have stated that that is not your aim. Just as well, I think you'd be as incompetent at that as you are at making your "case" here.

Being critical of your invalid arguments and unsubstantiated opinions stated as facts does not mean one is "negative". Only that one is sensible.

Matrix

03-10-2007, 10:16 AM

How would Yip Man have done with Ramon Dekkers? ;) Fantasy vs. Reality.Terence,
I'm just curious how you think you would do against Dekkers?

t_niehoff

03-10-2007, 03:11 PM

Terence,
I'm just curious how you think you would do against Dekkers?

I'd get killed of course! (But I'd jump at the chance though). I know very well what my skill level is and what I am capable of -- from experience. To beat someone like a Dekkers you need to train like a Dekkers: you need to train until you are a world-class athlete, you need to have his level of fighting experience, etc. regardless of your martial art. Yip was never at that level. No WCK fighter (yet) has ever been at that level.

Matrix

03-10-2007, 08:26 PM

To beat someone like a Dekkers you need to train like a Dekkers: you need to train until you are a world-class athlete, you need to have his level of fighting experience, etc. regardless of your martial art.

The problem as I see it is that your average joe does not have the time to train like Dekkers. World class athletes tend to be full-time athletes.
Even if they had the time they still might never get to that level since they don't have the great natural ability or body-mechanics.

But the biggest issue, IMO, is the toll that level of training takes on your body. That type of training can cause a lot of long-term damage to the body. When I was in my 20's I trained hard in kickboxing. Over time I did damage to my hip-flexors and rotator cuff that still flair up more than 25 years later. The body only has a limited ability to heal itself, so some damage will remain for a life time, and some damage will evolve to chronic conditions such as arthritis. Have you ever noticed how few old-time Muay Thai fighters seem to be around? And how many guys want to end up like Ali after a career of head shots, etc?

When you're young you think you are indestructable. Further down the road you realize you're not, and count your blessings that nobody ever really tested your man-of-steel delusions. ;)

t_niehoff

03-11-2007, 07:10 AM

The problem as I see it is that your average joe does not have the time to train like Dekkers. World class athletes tend to be full-time athletes.
Even if they had the time they still might never get to that level since they don't have the great natural ability or body-mechanics.

So what is your point? This is true in any athletic field. Most people never reach world class level in any sport. That doesn't change what people need to do to develop skill at that sport, however.

The real problem is that many people approach WCK as somehow different than other forms of athletics -- it's not. If the "average Joe" wants to be a decent level boxer or wrestler (which may be the best they can hope to attain), for example, they need to train a certain way. Most people will appreciate that. Yet, they'll believe they can train differently and develop skill in WCK.

But the biggest issue, IMO, is the toll that level of training takes on your body. That type of training can cause a lot of long-term damage to the body. When I was in my 20's I trained hard in kickboxing. Over time I did damage to my hip-flexors and rotator cuff that still flair up more than 25 years later. The body only has a limited ability to heal itself, so some damage will remain for a life time, and some damage will evolve to chronic conditions such as arthritis. Have you ever noticed how few old-time Muay Thai fighters seem to be around? And how many guys want to end up like Ali after a career of head shots, etc?

The nature of fighting, and what we need to do to prepare for it, doesn't change because we don't like it. If a person wants to develop fighting skills, they simply need to do certain things. If they don't want to do those things, for whatever reason, that is their perogative, but then they need to accept they won't develop the skills. If someone wants to be a good on the ground, they need to roll, a lot, and with good grapplers. And it will take its toll. But there is no other way to develop those skills. It's magical thinking to believe otherwise (as there is no evidence to support that view). It's the same for stand up.

When you're young you think you are indestructable. Further down the road you realize you're not, and count your blessings that nobody ever really tested your man-of-steel delusions. ;)

People who train to be fighters have no delusions -- they learn the costs rather quickly. The only people with the delusions arethose that think fighting skill can be earned any other way.

Matrix

03-11-2007, 10:58 AM

So what is your point? This is true in any athletic field. Most people never reach world class level in any sport. That doesn't change what people need to do to develop skill at that sport, however.My point is that this level of training is not sustainable over the long-term. You will pay a price for treating your body like that.

The real problem is that many people approach WCK as somehow different than other forms of athletics -- it's not. ......... Yet, they'll believe they can train differently and develop skill in WCK. I would say that you may have to train differently if you want to maintain your training as a life-long experience. As you get older your body does not recover as well as it used to, but that doesn't mean you have to sit down to rocking chair for exercise.

People who train to be fighters have no delusions -- they learn the costs rather quickly. The only people with the delusions arethose that think fighting skill can be earned any other way.They really don't see the long-term costs until much later, but by then the damage is done. They have this ego-trip thing going where "no pain, no gain " is the mantra. The simple truth is that there is cause and effect, and over time the series of traumas to your body will take it's toll.

t_niehoff

03-11-2007, 11:23 AM

My point is that this level of training is not sustainable over the long-term. You will pay a price for treating your body like that.

No one can maintain a world class level forever -- age catches up with us all. There is a kuit in WCK that says "Lien Kuen But Lien Gung, Dao Lao Yat Cheung Hung" (roughly - if you practice martial arts without partaking in the training, you will have nothing when you're old). Jack Dempsey was able to knock out two muggers when he was in his 70s: that ability is residual. He developed it in his youth, when he was partaking in "the training."

Contact athletic activities carry a price. If you don't want to pay that price, then take up golf or knitting.

I would say that you may have to train differently if you want to maintain your training as a life-long experience. As you get older your body does not recover as well as it used to, but that doesn't mean you have to sit down to rocking chair for exercise.

But the demands of the activity -- in this case fighting -- doesn't change because we get older. Your training, whoever you are or whatever your situation, needs to meet those demands or it will not be effective. There isn't some form of training that works for old people or lazy people; the only sort of training that works is what the athletes are doing. We know how fighters train. Don't train that way and you won't develop into a fighter. People have told me that they just can't train like that (translation: they don't want to). The answer is, of course, then don't. Maybe, for you, the costs are too high. Fine. My point is just don't kid yoruself that there is some other "less costly" way -- there isn't.

They really don't see the long-term costs until much later, but by then the damage is done. They have this ego-trip thing going where "no pain, no gain " is the mantra. The simple truth is that there is cause and effect, and over time the series of traumas to your body will take it's toll.

It's no ego trip -- fighters fight because they enjoy it. Because they enjoy it, they train to get better at it, to do it better, to increase the challenge, and enjoy it more. Why do people play american football? Same reason. Want to play american football, then train like a football player. Will you get injuries? You bet. Will it take its toll on your body? You bet. Then why do they do it? Because they enjoy playing the game. Is there some way to train to be a good football player without the punishment, without training like football players do? No. Football doesn't change becasue we get older. Regardless of your age, if you are going to get out on that field and play football, you need to train the same way -- as the demands on you will be the same.

Matrix

03-11-2007, 01:31 PM

Jack Dempsey was able to knock out two muggers when he was in his 70s: that ability is residual. He developed it in his youth, when he was partaking in "the training.".Well, I bet those 2 muggers were a couple of scrubs. I'm willing to bet that's what you would say if some WCK guy did the same thing. Besides, there are stories of little old ladies fending off muggers. This is a nothing more than an interesting anecdote.

Contact athletic activities carry a price. If you don't want to pay that price, then take up golf or knitting.What an absurd comment. Your "my way or the highway" attitude really shows through here. There are many shades of gray, and yet you only seem to see black and white.

But the demands of the activity -- in this case fighting -- doesn't change because we get older. Your training, whoever you are or whatever your situation, needs to meet those demands or it will not be effective.You are starting with the assumption that any form of training does not meet your criteria will not meet the demands. That is just your opinion.

My point is just don't kid yoruself that there is some other "less costly" way -- there isn't..So you keep saying.

Regardless of your age, if you are going to get out on that field and play football, you need to train the same way -- as the demands on you will be the same.How many 50 year old football players are there in the NFL? ..... Approximately? How about ZERO. I guess they're all too busy taking knitting lessons. Same goes for the NBA, NHL and MLB. Even golfers reach a stage where they cannot make the cut of the PGA tour. Train all you want, whatever way you want, you cannot measure up day-in and day-out at that level. Age is the great equalizer. Nobody escapes, unless they die young and that's not a very appealing alternative. Having said that, you can train in a way that maintains optimum physical fitness and skill.

Vajramusti

03-11-2007, 03:00 PM

FWIW- without comment or debate from me....
Bas Ruten- a MMA icon.. currentlya Pride commentator- in the past- 3 times undefeated King of Pancrase, undefeated UFC heavyweight champ, etc etc... in an interview for "Fight magazine" -(sticking out ina sidewalk rack--))..

"And me? I kind of made the decision that it is over. I already have a pain in my knee all the time...and they can't fix it. So I decided I'm going to spare my knees for the kids, and hopefully my grandkids, cause right now I can't walk upstairs
it is so painful. I'm 41 years old.What's it going to be like when I.m 60?I don't
want to risk it.""

No Bas, no mas...

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

03-11-2007, 03:13 PM

But the biggest issue, IMO, is the toll that level of training takes on your body. That type of training can cause a lot of long-term damage to the body. When I was in my 20's I trained hard in kickboxing. Over time I did damage to my hip-flexors and rotator cuff that still flair up more than 25 years later. The body only has a limited ability to heal itself, so some damage will remain for a life time, and some damage will evolve to chronic conditions such as arthritis.

Have you ever noticed how few old-time Muay Thai fighters seem to be around? And how many guys want to end up like Ali after a career of head shots, etc?

Matrix,

1, in my knowledge around 26 years old is a retirement age for Muay Thai figters.

2, I have paid my price too for what I have done when I was young. However, now, I know there might be one way to have a second chance for the body to heal or promote the body to heal and recover or even boosting the energy....
And that is entering into the Third State.

It is called the Third State because this is the state the ancient get in touch with different natural phenomenon.

Today we know, the begining of internal training is about Getting into the Third State. and When we enter into the Third State, the body/mind will change.

There, WCK training process from SLT/SNT training to blind fold SLT and blind fold Chisau training will make sense. Thus, Entering into the Third State is a Key of WCK.

The EEG machine is a must to get into the Third State. The ancient have a difficult time to get there because they cant detect as well as we today on the basic we need to detect. Thus, certain part of WCK art could not be effectively transmit to the next generation.

The Third State could be analogy to selecting or Tuning the RADIO to a certain radio station. it is about entering into a state which resonance of mind/body/breathing.

The reason we got stuck in general is because we have unknowingly place road bock in to our SLT/SNT and that preventing the Resonance or entering into the Third State.

for example, elbow in the center line, or clamping knees are road block for those who have not experience and be able to to enter into the Third State at will.

So, what is the Third STate?
let's start with brain wave, Entering the Third State, one will show an Alfa brain wave which is between 7hz to 10 hz.

Within this state, we will and certainly will know automatically what is Nature in term of body handling and breathing means.

Have you asked why is WCK training is doing Blind folded training be it practicing SLT or Chi SAu?

A secret of blind fold training be it in SLT or Chi Sau is that. with ease, closing one's eyes lead one naturally entering into alfa or the Third State much easer way compare with eyes open.

This again, is a supporting fact that support the three keys of internal training as I describe in this thread a few days ago ---- Loose, Quiet, and Nature.

So, until one could enter into the Third State, SLT/SNT training doesnt really start.
ON the other hand,
There sure still benifit in doing the SLT/SNT training even without entering into the third state. however, it is not possible to descrip the Third State without entering into it. and now, with the modern technology, we can easily identify the entering.

In a nut shell, IMHO, using the HRV we could know if our breathing/ physical has some handling. with the EEG we know forsure if we enter into Alfa.

With both, HRV and EEG we know whether we have started the training according to the old ancestors or not.

Some are asking me about how will the HRV and EEG data related to the real life stress condition/or under pressure?
my answer is, imho, blind fold oneself up facing one opponent, doing both the blind fold Chi Sau and control Sparing . that will be a good intermiddiate step to examine how is one's HRV and EEG data or state? and ofcause, if one is not up to that yet, just do blind fold SLT, and see for yourself what is the data show.

Thus, this is no longer about clam and relax. it is about entering into the Third State --- A state between Sleep/DReam and Awaken/Thinking, and alter state training.
different then, As in Sleep/Dream we forgot about who we are, as in Awaken/Thinking we forgot about what Nature is about.

There we will expereince what is Nature and Flow is about which we never could think or speculate. or The 8 special medirains will activate in this tate.

AS I mention above, This is a new begining, a back to the future, we now have the technology to know what is the ancient training is about.

Hope that this Third STate information is used for peace and love and living with happiness.

Just some sharing in this quiet spring sunday afternoon in Aptos, seascape resolt california. The world has changed....
I also met an MD who works with peak performance athletics. and yes, they use the Biofeedback and EEG as a part of training...

http://www.thepeacefulwarriormovie.com/

t_niehoff

03-12-2007, 06:04 AM

Well, I bet those 2 muggers were a couple of scrubs. I'm willing to bet that's what you would say if some WCK guy did the same thing. Besides, there are stories of little old ladies fending off muggers. This is a nothing more than an interesting anecdote.

Yes, it is an interesting anecdote, and I agree anecdotes by themselves prove nothing. But if we look at any athlete and what it takes to develop higher (decent) levels of skill and retain those skills into older age, we see the same things.

What an absurd comment. Your "my way or the highway" attitude really shows through here. There are many shades of gray, and yet you only seem to see black and white.

You are starting with the assumption that any form of training does not meet your criteria will not meet the demands. That is just your opinion.

My pointing out what any athlete must do to develop skill is not "my way" -- it's the way things work. The evidence is there; look at any decent level athlete, look at the scientific studies, etc. We know that this way works (and is the only way that works) and can develop skills to any -- including world class -- level. On the other hand, we have people who believe (and want to believe) and say that there is another way to develop significant fighting skills. Yet they cannot provide any evidence to support their view (other than assertions that it will work or stories that can't be proven). That is magical thinking.

So you keep saying.

How many 50 year old football players are there in the NFL? ..... Approximately? How about ZERO. I guess they're all too busy taking knitting lessons. Same goes for the NBA, NHL and MLB. Even golfers reach a stage where they cannot make the cut of the PGA tour. Train all you want, whatever way you want, you cannot measure up day-in and day-out at that level. Age is the great equalizer. Nobody escapes, unless they die young and that's not a very appealing alternative. Having said that, you can train in a way that maintains optimum physical fitness and skill.

You are hung up on age. Sure age diminishes our physical abilities. Helio at 90 is not the same Helio at thrity-five. But how many 90 year-olds can match his skill level? None. Dan Inosanto took up BJJ at 60. He didn't "train another way", but trained just like everyone else. Why? Because there is no other way to develop grappling skill. He earned his BB at 70. Do you need to be in great shape to be a BJJ BB? You f*cking bet. Does it take its toll on your body? You bet. But if a person wants to develop ground/grappling skills that is what you must do, regardless of your age, gender, physical abilities, etc.

As anyone who fights can tell you, when you lay off the sparring, your skills decline. The longer they lay off, the greater the decline. Continuing to spar/roll/fight as we get older is the only way to retain our skills -- and even develop some new ones. No sparring means no fighting skills, regardless of the art, regardless of a peson's age.

For anyone who disagrees, I just say: show me someone, anyone, who has developed significant (decent level) fighting abilities by another way of training and can step up and prove those abilities/skills. The whole world would be interested, from fighters to scientisits!

You assert that "you can train in a way that maintains optimum physical fitness and skill" -- and you're right: if you train like a fighter. If you don't train like a fighter, you can never develop any significant WCK fighting skill. Being "in condition" for fighting is very different (and more than mere) physical fitness. But for all those that believe there is "another way" to fighting skill -- the world awaits the evidence. The truth is as near as the closest MMA gym. Go down to one and mix it up with those guys. Take your camcorder. Show the world what level of skill your "other way of training" produces.

BTW, Joy, I attended a Bas Rutten seminar a couple of years ago and had the privledge to spar a bit with him (and I got schooled). He still trains. He stills spars. Your quotation refers to fighting competitively -- from which he retired. Everyone retires from competitive fighting at some point, just like they retire from competition in any sport, because it does take its toll. Even BJJ BBs retire from competing in sport grappling events for the same reasns. But they don't stop rolling (fighting) -- and for two reasons. They know (from expereince) that laying off the sparring will cause their skills to decline (even more than age) and they enjoy it.

Knifefighter

03-12-2007, 10:28 AM

You are hung up on age. Sure age diminishes our physical abilities. Helio at 90 is not the same Helio at thrity-five. But how many 90 year-olds can match his skill level? None. Dan Inosanto took up BJJ at 60. He didn't "train another way", but trained just like everyone else. Why? Because there is no other way to develop grappling skill. He earned his BB at 70. Do you need to be in great shape to be a BJJ BB? You f*cking bet. Does it take its toll on your body? You bet. But if a person wants to develop ground/grappling skills that is what you must do, regardless of your age, gender, physical abilities, etc.

BTW, Joy, I attended a Bas Rutten seminar a couple of years ago and had the privledge to spar a bit with him (and I got schooled). He still trains. He stills spars. Your quotation refers to fighting competitively -- from which he retired. Everyone retires from competitive fighting at some point, just like they retire from competition in any sport, because it does take its toll. Even BJJ BBs retire from competing in sport grappling events for the same reasns. But they don't stop rolling (fighting) -- and for two reasons. They know (from expereince) that laying off the sparring will cause their skills to decline (even more than age) and they enjoy it.

Exactly…
Once again Terrence makes complete sense.

BTW, While I haven't seen him in a several years, the last time I trained with Helio (I think he was about 86 then) he was still going pretty hard and giving 20 year old BJJ guys a hard time (he has an amazing array of chokes).

Gene Lebell is in is late 70's, I believe. He still trains hard, something he has been doing his entire life.

Carl Gotch, who is in his 80's, is the epitome of hard training for his entire life

I'm betting any one of these guys could probably make mince meat out of 99% of the kung fu "masters" out there, whatever their age.

Matrix

03-12-2007, 05:26 PM

Yes, it is an interesting anecdote, and I agree anecdotes by themselves prove nothing. But if we look at any athlete and what it takes to develop higher (decent) levels of skill and retain those skills into older age, we see the same things.In other words, anecdotal evidence is fine as long as it supports your point of view. Again, I say it proves nothing.

My pointing out what any athlete must do to develop skill is not "my way" -- it's the way things work. The evidence is there; look at any decent level athlete, look at the scientific studies, etc. Can you please sight some specific studies and evidence? I am certainly open to looking at any evidence you can point out.

You are hung up on age. Sure age diminishes our physical abilities. .I'm not "hung up" on age, but rather use it to illustrate my point. It's an inevitable and very common outcome for everyone. So it applies broadly. We will all age. Not only will skills diminish, but your ability to handle intense training over the long-term due to increased time to recover from injury. Even Helio and Insanto (both whom have my utmost respect) cannot keep up with trained 20 year olds and 30 year olds day-in and day-out.

Helio at 90 is not the same Helio at thrity-five. But how many 90 year-olds can match his skill level? None. Dan Inosanto took up BJJ at 60. He didn't "train another way", but trained just like everyone else. .Again, these are one-off examples. For every Helio Gracie there is a Mohammad Ali. Not very scientific, is it....

As anyone who fights can tell you, when you lay off the sparring, your skills decline. The longer they lay off, the greater the decline. .So how does this jive with your Jack Dempsey story? In his case in an earlier post, you said that he was able to use the skills developed in his youth, and now you're saying something quite different.

BTW, Joy, I attended a Bas Rutten seminar a couple of years ago and had the privledge to spar a bit with him (and I got schooled). He still trains. He stills spars. ....... But they don't stop rolling (fighting) -- and for two reasons. So, are sparring, rolling and fighting all equivalent?
You seem to use the words interchangeably.
And I guess it's OK to take your game down a notch, even though the fighting game hasn't changed. Because that's the problem. You will slow down a step as the world around you continues to pick up the pace. You might not like it, but that changes nothing. The best you can hope for is that you're the unrivaled in the 90-year old class, and you can probably kick some 70-year old @ss as well. ;)

Knifefighter

03-12-2007, 05:37 PM

Can you please sight some specific studies and evidence? I am certainly open to looking at any evidence you can point out.

There are a many, many studies in the exercise science literature showing the importance of specificity of training and how important that is for developing physical performance capabilities. Specific adaptations to imposed demands is a cornerstone of all scientific training programs.

For every Helio Gracie there is a Mohammad Ali.
And for every 80-year-old healthy kung fu guy, there is another one with bum knees, a bad back and arthritic hips.

Matrix

03-12-2007, 05:42 PM

And for every 80-year-old healthy kung fu guy, there is another one with bum knees, a bad back and arthritic hips. I agree 100%. Like I said, no one escapes. Not even Kwai Chang Caine. ;)

Knifefighter

03-12-2007, 06:15 PM

I agree 100%. Like I said, no one escapes. Not even Kwai Chang Caine. ;)

One of the advantages of grappling is that it lets you train realtively harder than you can with striking as you age. Notice the above examples were all of grapplers, while the example you gave was of a striker. BJJ and submission grappling tourneys regularly have 40, 50 and 60-year-olds competing, something that is much less common in striking competitions.

Matrix

03-12-2007, 07:35 PM

One of the advantages of grappling is that it lets you train realtively harder than you can with striking as you age. Interesting point. :cool:

t_niehoff

03-12-2007, 08:18 PM

In other words, anecdotal evidence is fine as long as it supports your point of view. Again, I say it proves nothing.

I said that *my* anecdote doesn't prove anything -- just that it provides a point of departure for discussion.

Can you please sight some specific studies and evidence? I am certainly open to looking at any evidence you can point out.

Try reading 'Motor Control and Learning: A Behavioral Emphasis' by Schmidt, Richard A.; Lee -- it's a good place to start.

I'm not "hung up" on age, but rather use it to illustrate my point. It's an inevitable and very common outcome for everyone. So it applies broadly. We will all age. Not only will skills diminish, but your ability to handle intense training over the long-term due to increased time to recover from injury. Even Helio and Insanto (both whom have my utmost respect) cannot keep up with trained 20 year olds and 30 year olds day-in and day-out.

Again, these are one-off examples. For every Helio Gracie there is a Mohammad Ali. Not very scientific, is it....

You just don't seem to get the point -- if you want the skill, there is no other way. That's the price. If you think the price is too high, then don't pay it. But understand that means you'll never get the skill. It's an individual choice.

So how does this jive with your Jack Dempsey story? In his case in an earlier post, you said that he was able to use the skills developed in his youth, and now you're saying something quite different.

Skill doesn't just stop the minute you end training, but it does decline steadily. Dempsey, even though he had stopped training, had so much developed skill (was at such a high level) that even though he had wuit many years before, he was still at a much higher level than the guys who mugged him. Contrast that with someone who never had the skills in the first place. Also, it points out the advantage to doing these sorts of things in your youth -- I sure wish I had begun BJJ 20 years ago.

So, are sparring, rolling and fighting all equivalent?
You seem to use the words interchangeably.
And I guess it's OK to take your game down a notch, even though the fighting game hasn't changed. Because that's the problem. You will slow down a step as the world around you continues to pick up the pace. You might not like it, but that changes nothing. The best you can hope for is that you're the unrivaled in the 90-year old class, and you can probably kick some 70-year old @ss as well. ;)

I do it all as best I can. :)

But you still don't get it. People who fight do it because they like it. Like running marathons -- people do it for fun. [If you think about it, it's stupid (from a cost-benefit standpoint) to practice a martial art and put in all that time and effort to be able to "protect yourself" when you can just buy a gun or take a few measures and most likely never get into a fight.] Even if you are a world class marathoner, you are going to slow down over time. The miles will take its toll on your body, etc. But if you like to run marathons, you must do the training, put in the miles. Are there 70 year old marathoners? Sure. And how do they train? Just like anyone else that wants to run a marathon. There isn't some other way. And there isn't some way of developing or maintaining fighting (WCK) skills except by training like a fighter. Fighters enjoy training like that. Dan and Helio like getting out on the mat and rolling.

If someone wants to be a nonmartial WCK practitioner, that's fine with me. Do the forms, do the drills, play chi sao, etc. That's fine and dandy. My point is we know today, from expereince and from science, what it takes to develop significant functional fighting skills in any martial art, including WCK. If anyone wants those skills, they need to do that work.

Vajramusti

03-12-2007, 10:51 PM

Like many threads this one too goes all over the place with some folks practically repeating their same old posts-just restated here and there.
No sense in debating with the ideologues who IMHO are not really doing much wing chun if any..
So ..some judgment calls a few repeated a few not-
1.The fast spreading of wing chun has created a very uneven wing chun world.

2. Using the lowest common denominators as examples-is hardly worthy of discussion.

3. Some of the easy generalizations about wing chunners being only theoreticians
is often based on ones opinion and incomplete sampling.

4. Do folks have to prove anything to some of the frequent posters? Not really. They will post the same old same old posts.. There are wing chun folks in each generation who have really fought. Contact work in good wing chun is more prevalent than what appears to be the case if forums were the real world.
In some arts the skill development curve is upward longer than in many sports.

5.Wing Chun is not the only way to fight. For some folks who have been deep into wing chun its a **** good system. If someone wants to do MMA, JKD, MT, or something else- thats their business and good luck. One does sometimes what they have to do.

6. We can repeat anecdotes and counter with anecdotes. Sure. longevity of boxers skills may be in some cases shorter than grapplers... but X of Iowa one of the greatest collegiate wrestlers ever has artificial knees. many choices of poison- head, knees... in sporting activity.

7. Good teaching is important-because it can also guide good practice. Vladimir Klitchko recently knocked out Ray Austin another big guy in two round with 3 left hooks. He didnt have left hooks before... he had the standard early European
pushing left jab followed bya right.Emmanuel Sewards careful teaching and coaching turned Klitchko around. One has to learn what to train and then experiment using it.

So...good night to all.

joy chaudhuri

Matrix

03-13-2007, 05:24 AM

...... Like running marathons -- people do it for fun. [If you think about it, it's stupid (from a cost-benefit standpoint) to practice a martial art and put in all that time and effort to be able to "protect yourself" when you can just buy a gun or take a few measures and most likely never get into a fight.] Even if you are a world class marathoner, you are going to slow down over time. The miles will take its toll on your body, etc. But if you like to run marathons, you must do the training, put in the miles. Are there 70 year old marathoners? Sure. And how do they train? Just like anyone else that wants to run a marathon. There isn't some other way. So Terence. Just how many marathons have you run?
I've run 8 marathons including 2 Boston Marathons with a personal best time of 2:36. Not world-class, but better than average. I can tell you from personal experience that you learn that more training and harder training does not work in the long term. In fact training harder can diminish performance. Like you said, the miles take their toll. But even then not all miles are the same. Your body benefits tremendously from slow miles, just concentrating on body mechanics and relaxation. You might think that running is just putting one foot in front of the other in rapid succession, but it's a little more complicated than that. Slow and steady wins the race, because life is much more like a marathon than the 100 metres, IMO.

Knifefighter

03-13-2007, 07:17 AM

So Terence. Just how many marathons have you run?
I've run 8 marathons including 2 Boston Marathons with a personal best time of 2:36. Not world-class, but better than average. I can tell you from personal experience that you learn that more training and harder training does not work in the long term.

Tell that to the Kenyans who dominate at the marathon distance by putting in 120 to 150 miles per week.

It is well-known what it takes to do well at marathons and everyone who wants to meet their potential does it... lots of miles with a bit of interval and/or lactate threshold work.

Terrence is right about marathon training... or any other training for that matter.

In fact training harder can diminish performance. Like you said, the miles take their toll. But even then not all miles are the same. .
There are specific training protocols and hard training is part of that. Because the marathon is not run at a particularly hard pace (compared to something like the 3,000 meters), training is more volume oriented than intensity oriented.

Your body benefits tremendously from slow miles, just concentrating on body mechanics and relaxation. You might think that running is just putting one foot in front of the other in rapid succession, but it's a little more complicated than that. Slow and steady wins the race, because life is much more like a marathon than the 100 metres, IMO.

Life may be like a marathon, but fighting is more like running between 200 and 5,000 meters than it is like running a marathon. Because of this, one must train at much higher intensities if one wants to be a good fighter...

Once again, specificity of training is the key to any human performance activity.

Slow and easy wins the race
Not if the race is 800 meters.

One problem with TMA teachings is those who are teaching it know little of the principles of human performance and pass down that lack of knowledge to their students.

Knifefighter

03-13-2007, 09:26 AM

1.The fast spreading of wing chun has created a very uneven wing chun world.

BJJ has spread much faster and wider that WC, yet it has not resulted in uneveness. If anything, BJJ has become a much more even playing field since this has happened.

2. Using the lowest common denominators as examples-is hardly worthy of discussion.

I agree. I think the highest common denominators should be used. Let's take Cro-cop from the kickboxing world, Minotauro from the BJJ world, Fedor from the Sambo world, Klitchko from boxing, and Karelin from wrestling. I think most people would agree that any of these guys could be a threat against almost anyone in the world.

Whom would we take from the WC world?

3. Some of the easy generalizations about wing chunners being only theoreticians is often based on ones opinion and incomplete sampling.

The same reasoning of opinion and incomplete sampling applies to your quote #1 above.

4. Do folks have to prove anything to some of the frequent posters? Not really. They will post the same old same old posts..

Many current BJJer's were non-believers and thought the same old thoughts about not being able to be taken down and worked on the ground until they were shown otherwise. Prove the point and most "modern" fighters will change their thinking.

In some arts the skill development curve is upward longer than in many sports.

Sound fundamental principles will prevent one system having a longer learning curve than another. This is the reason that is doesnt' take longer to get better at BJJ vs. wrestling vs. boxing vs. Muay Thai vs. Sambo vs. Judo... none of these has a steeper learning curve than any of the others because each has sound fundamentals.

t_niehoff

03-13-2007, 09:57 AM

To answer Bill, I've latched onto Dale's post:

Tell that to the Kenyans who dominate at the marathon distance by putting in 120 to 150 miles per week.

It is well-known what it takes to do well at marathons and everyone who wants to meet their potential does it... lots of miles with a bit of interval and/or lactate threshold work.

Terrence is right about marathon training... or any other training for that matter.

I ran two marathons, and some years ago. I have limited time for any athletic activity -- so I have to prioritize, streamline, etc. what I do, so while I still run, I only do it to keep my cardio fitness base (30 minutes, 4 x week). This has, in part, led me to focus on optimized training.

The point that I'm trying to make is that if we want to develop an ability or skill, there are certain things that we absolutely need to do. To run marathons, you must put in the miles. You can't develop into a marathoner by not running! Similarly, you can't develop realistic fighting (WCK) skills by training unrealistically (not sparring). Bill keeps pointing out the costs of doing that -- and he's right, there can be costs. But there is no way to develop the skills without that sort of training. Just because he doesn't like the possible costs doesn't mean there is another way of developing those skills. I know many people want to believe there is, and many people say there is, but that is bull sh1t. And the truth is as close as your nearest MMA gym (go and spar decent fighters and you'll see if your training works).

There are specific training protocols and hard training is part of that. Because the marathon is not run at a particularly hard pace (compared to something like the 3,000 meters), training is more volume oriented than intensity oriented.

Life may be like a marathon, but fighting is more like running between 200 and 5,000 meters than it is like running a marathon. Because of this, one must train at much higher intensities if one wants to be a good fighter...

Once again, specificity of training is the key to any human performance activity.

This underscores one of my pet peeves with the theoretical nonfighters -- they approach things from theory rather than starting with "the fight". What I mean is they start with how they want the fight to be rather than how it actually will be. Hendrik talks about breathing being important, for example. Of course, it is. But how do we best prepare and develop our respiration for fighting -- which is going to be highly anaerobic? Not by practicing at a pace that doesn't work and develop our anaerobic capabilities. This is why a person can run marathons and get "winded" after 30 seconds of high intensity sparring.

One problem with TMA teachings is those who are teaching it know little of the principles of human performance and pass down that lack of knowledge to their students.

And I think that its because they are not really doing their TMAs -- they are not fighting with them. If they were, they'd see for themselves and very quickly anything "lacking" in their views. All they do is practice unrealistically, and theorize how it will work.

t_niehoff

03-13-2007, 10:49 AM

Like many threads this one too goes all over the place with some folks practically repeating their same old posts-just restated here and there.
No sense in debating with the ideologues who IMHO are not really doing much wing chun if any..

You may want to look in the mirror.

A person isn't "Doing WCK" unless they are fighting with it. The forms, chi sao, the drills, etc. is not "doing" WCK; it's the prep work to "do" WCK.

So how much time have you spent sparring with your WCK (and against decent level fighters)? Because that's the amount of time you've spent "doing WCK".

But you're right -- it is pointless for people who are "doing WCK" (fighting with it) to debate with those who aren't "doing WCK" but nevertheless believe they have the answers.

4. Do folks have to prove anything to some of the frequent posters? Not really. They will post the same old same old posts.. There are wing chun folks in each generation who have really fought. Contact work in good wing chun is more prevalent than what appears to be the case if forums were the real world.
In some arts the skill development curve is upward longer than in many sports.

Of course there have been real WCK practitioners (people who "do WCK", i.e., fight) in every generation. It's just that they are the exceptions, not the rule. The vast majority never train realistically and never really "do WCK" -- but they do go out and "teach". And they pass on "the art" of nonmartial WCK to other nonfighters, who add to "the art", making WCK less and less viable.

And, just because there were people in WCK in the past who fought, doesn't say anything about their skill levels. I posted the link to the tai ji v. white crane "fight" -- here's a great example of TMA's fighting (yes, Virginia, some did fight). But they were not very good by today's standard (maybe they were good by their day and culturre's standard).

In Japan, the traditional JJ folks also had fighters from every generation. But when Kano changed the training model (to train realistically), they all lost. Today, those arts still exist but we never see their practitioners winning any grappling competitions. You can say the same things about traditional JJJ as you can about the TCMAs, including WCK.

5.Wing Chun is not the only way to fight. For some folks who have been deep into wing chun its a **** good system. If someone wants to do MMA, JKD, MT, or something else- thats their business and good luck. One does sometimes what they have to do.

And this statement could just as easily have come from a traditional JJJ practitioner.

Lots of people have "ideas" of what "good WCK" is, how to best train, etc. But as Kano showed, that "debate" can only take place in the "realm of results".

Vajramusti

03-13-2007, 07:56 PM

I agree. I think the highest common denominators should be used. Let's take Cro-cop from the kickboxing world, Minotauro from the BJJ world, Fedor from the Sambo world, Klitchko from boxing, and Karelin from wrestling. I think most people would agree that any of these guys could be a threat against almost anyone in the world.

Whom would we take from the WC world?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrence!

If one believes his posts , he has by far the most fighting experience among frequent posters, I think.

joy chaudhuri

Knifefighter

03-13-2007, 08:41 PM

Whom would we take from the WC world?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrence!

OK, that one was a good one. :)

couch

03-13-2007, 09:47 PM

BJJ has spread much faster and wider that WC, yet it has not resulted in uneveness. If anything, BJJ has become a much more even playing field since this has happened.

My 2 cents:

The success of BJJ, IMO, is twofold: the early times of MMA and the pressure testing. The only thing that I would like to add is: there is still a lot of crappy BJJ out there that doesn't pressure-test/train a lot of takedowns/train cardio/etc.

There's not much point to compare it to WC. We have crappy everything martial art. And crappy WC, too!

The best we can do is train hard, to the best of our ability and pass this on to our students in hopes that they carry the torch. Will some get lazy and become arm-chair sifus? Of course. But when I'm hanging out with Yip Man and Royce Gracie (I can't remember who made that story up, but I remember it's entertainment value), I'll be happy that I did my best.

And all the best to you,
Kenton Sefcik

Matrix

03-14-2007, 04:40 AM

Tell that to the Kenyans who dominate at the marathon distance by putting in 120 to 150 miles per week..Kenya is a great middle and long distance running nation, but let's not confuse group results with individual. An individual runner does not remain at the top of the heap for a very long time. In the case of a lot of these runners, they know that their ability to win prize money exists for a relatively short window of opportunity, so they pound it for all it's worth. This is not a life-long strategy.

It is well-known what it takes to do well at marathons and everyone who wants to meet their potential does it... lots of miles with a bit of interval and/or lactate threshold work."Lots of miles" are done a relatively slow pace. My personal experience has told me that for a majority of the miles you should run slower, rather than faster.

Anyways, this is just getting silly. As Joy has so keenly noted, Terence is obviously the class of the field here, so I will take my humble self back to the shadows where I belong.

Peace,

tbone

03-14-2007, 06:51 AM

Anyways, this is just getting silly. As Joy has so keenly noted, Terence is obviously the class of the field here, so I will take my humble self back to the shadows where I belong.

Peace,Any independently verifiable evidence for this comment? You know, Youtube video or something?

Knifefighter

03-14-2007, 01:32 PM

The only thing that I would like to add is: there is still a lot of crappy BJJ out there that doesn't pressure-test/train a lot of takedowns/train cardio/etc.
BJJ has never been known for great takedown training. While the more progressive BJJ schools have added more takedown training, BJJ is basically a groundfighting style and that is where the bulk of the training occurs.

BJJ practitioners who want to be good with takedowns generally cross train in judo and/or wrestling.

As far as pressure testing, which schools don't do this? Every BJJ school I have ever heard of includes full intensity sparring. As a matter of fact, sparring is so integral to the training that BJJ without sparring would not be BJJ.

As far as cardio, that is hit with the sparring.

leejunfan

03-14-2007, 06:40 PM

11 pages and still going strong with the same old nonsense.

madness........

Liddel

03-14-2007, 08:18 PM

The rusults from the "Phrase of the week" competition are in. The winner is....

Any independently verifiable evidence for this...

same old nonsense....

But we still keep coming back.
Fool me once, shame on you !
Fool me twice, shame on me !
:D

Hendrik

03-14-2007, 08:58 PM

since internal art is about loose the body, quiet the mind, and natural in the breathing.

In my research, I found Gay Hendricks breath work teaching is very close to the ancient technology of natural in breathing.

I also find Lester Levenson's release technics teaching is very close to ancient zen technology to reach quiet the mind traing which could help one to be able to handle our fear and all sort of pressure..

http://www.releasetechnique.com/Lester_Levenson/listen_to_lester_levenson.htm

I purposely choose these two western gentlemen's teaching because it will be a great benifit for all of us be able to have a taste of what the ancient chinese talking about via the presentation of our western friends with the western way; and also see that these stuffs is not that difficult. and we all can do it.

In the ancient sense, without the above basic, the
training of SLT could not begin. one simply has no foundation to know what to do. IMHO

and; once one have a basic understanding of Loosen the body, quiet the mind, and natural in breathing. then, training in SLT is a special journey every time one train in it. one often will fuse and merge with the SLT and forgot about time when one is observing the body's tension change, or aware of the thoughts/feeling raise and fade away, and tune the breathing...

every time one train in SLT with this way, one gets oneself to be closer and closer to flowing naturally and living in this moment. that is the begining of internal training, that is the true training which will aid oneself in every second of one's living. one could relate and use what one train every instant. that make the training very benificial in all ways of one's living.

Try this Yik Kam way of training, you surely will not be disappointed on your progress and outcome of the train, be it it is to prepare yourself to be able to use your wck or living a great daily life. and you will find your surronding more and more friendly and loving kind also.

Edmund

03-14-2007, 09:28 PM

Any independently verifiable evidence for this comment? You know, Youtube video or something?

Will an EEG print-out suffice?

couch

03-14-2007, 09:57 PM

since internal art is about loose the body, quiet the mind, and natural in the breathing.

In my research, I found Gay Hendricks breath work teaching is very close to the ancient technology of natural in breathing.

............................................

Guy.

I don't know how you do it. They bash you, go round in circles and you come back for more.

Good perseverance!!!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Hendrik

03-14-2007, 10:30 PM

Guy.

I don't know how you do it. They bash you, go round in circles and you come back for more.

Good perseverance!!!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

It is about presenting information that will help others.

It is not about perseverance or bashing.

if the sun is round, just said it is round. That's all.

as for those believe in the sun is square or triangle, let them present what they love, for the deeper they seek somedays they will concluded the sun is round.

It is just a matter of time,

China was in chaos and loosing its pride in 1850 era.

Fighting could not help them, a bullet will kill any best fighter,
but internal training do help those who knows the dao to live harmoniously even when china is in turbulance and povety. ....

That is not about perseverance but live according to Dao and dont give a hood about what others think. they know to follow the path.

BTW, what is good to teach everyone how to fight where fight never occur ? instead of telling the truth about something practice in the ancient that could help one live happier, healtier, stronger, better, and more peaceful? The bottom line is about are we get better and progress everyday, instead of who could beat who which is meaningless beside boosting the ego.

on the other hand, if one doesnt have a will of steel, how far could one go in his kungfu? how long could one last? no one could avoid defeat but could one continous on disregard of what is the outcome due to one's faith and confident? without that type of will training, one has already lost before one started.

as the story of shao lin, Damo sit in the cave of Shao lin for nine years waiting for those who truely intend to learn Zen and dont give a hood to a$$ kissing the Liang Emperor to got the emperor approval. isnt that what we need to learn if we are practicing Kung fu? IMHO

hope that those who would like to find thier security and confident to live a good life found them while training in wck.

spring always return every year.

just some thoughts

t_niehoff

03-15-2007, 05:42 AM

Any independently verifiable evidence for this comment? You know, Youtube video or something?

Ha ha.

I've never claimed anything about my skill level being extraordinary. No one who really does WCK, fights, will: they will know better. All I am saying is that if we are approaching WCK as a martial art -- a fighting method -- then everything we do needs to be justified by results, and not by theory or unrealistic practice. Justified by results. What results am I talking about? Results in the development of our fighting (with WCK) skills. And how can you measure this except by fighting with skilled people? Maybe, just maybe, your chi sao "skills" will not work in fighting. There is a very easy way to find out.

I've tried not to use myself or my training as an example; instead, I've said to look at how those that can really fight well train. And they all, regardless of their martial art, do the same sorts of things -- just as all athletes do. Want independently verifiable evidence? There it is. And I've asked for evidence (that we can see for ourselves, and not stories) of anyone who trains differently -- where realistic sparring isn't the core of their training -- who has developed significant fighting skills. So far no one has produced any evidence that any other "way" of training produces significant gains in fighting skills.

Does this go round-and-round? Is the horse dead? Oh, yeah. It's sort of like the "debate" betwen creationists and evolutionary biologists -- the "debate" rages. It's just one side has evidence and the other has "belief".

Oh, BTW, no one -- in their right mind -- would even question the effectiveness of the training methods of BJJ, boxing, MT, sambo, judo, wrestling, etc. and for a very simple reason: the evidence of how well that method of training works is out there for all to see. Contrast that with the TMAs.

leejunfan

03-15-2007, 07:17 AM

YAWN!!!!!

Give us something new...... pretty please people :cool:

Like..... putting a fork in this repetitive thread maybe ;)

tbone

03-15-2007, 08:21 AM

Hey Terence,

It seems like you got the humor in my post despite my not using the smilies. That's all that was meant by my post... humor.

You are preaching to the choir. How do I "know", because I cross-train and I see the same evidence that you or anyone else can see. It's all right there in the results.

Knifefighter

03-15-2007, 09:27 AM

YAWN!!!!!Give us something new...... pretty please people :cool:

OK, here’s something new. It’s a way you can use a more scientific approach to determining how effective your training is towards being able to apply it in a fighting environment (as compared to Hendrick’s measurements, which are measurements of physiological responses, rather than fighting).

Video yourself and/or your students in all of their various training modes. Next record yourself and/or them while going full-contact, without stopping and starting over if the encounter goes to the clinch or to the ground.

After you have done this, analyze the movements from both sessions and break them down into percentages in which the sparring/fighting looks like the training movements. This will give you an effective measure of the percentage of effectiveness of your training.

This would be a great way to show substantiation of the effeciveness of your training and shut up the naysayers.... However, I'm betting you would find the percentage of transfer between training and fighting would be quite low.

Hendrik

03-15-2007, 01:06 PM

OK, here’s something new. It’s a way you can use a more scientific approach to determining how effective your training is towards being able to apply it in a fighting environment (as compared to Hendrick’s measurements, which are measurements of physiological responses, rather than fighting).

Video yourself and/or your students in all of their various training modes. Next record yourself and/or them while going full-contact, without stopping and starting over if the encounter goes to the clinch or to the ground.

After you have done this, analyze the movements from both sessions and break them down into percentages in which the sparring/fighting looks like the training movements. This will give you an effective measure of the percentage of effectiveness of your training.

This would be a great way to show substantiation of the effeciveness of your training and shut up the naysayers.... However, I'm betting you would find the percentage of transfer between training and fighting would be quite low.

one never step on the same current flow of water twice. every instant one's opponents changes.

how could one use the past to predict the future beside create lots of fear based prediction?

could one enter into the state at will ? Chance is one doesnt even aware of how to handle oneself in mind and body.

if not the rest doesnt matter. doesnt mean they are not important, but one doesnt have the tikect to enter. so what use ?

The ancient chinese said, how could one mark the location on board the boat where one drop the sword into the lake; and expect to find the sword after the boat coasting in shallow water of the lake?

Knifefighter

03-15-2007, 02:59 PM

one never step on the same current flow of water twice. every instant one's opponents changes.

how could one use the past to predict the future beside create lots of fear based prediction?

could one enter into the state at will ? Chance is one doesnt even aware of how to handle oneself in mind and body.

if not the rest doesnt matter. doesnt mean they are not important, but one doesnt have the tikect to enter. so what use ?

The ancient chinese said, how could one mark the location on board the boat where one drop the sword into the lake; and expect to find the sword after the boat coasting in shallow water of the lake?

Part of science is measuring many data points. From there statistical analysis is used to help weed out random variation. This helps to control for the variations in "one's opponents changes".

Your method measures physiological states which may or may not have anything to do with fighting ability. My method measures fighting which is closely related to fighting ability.

The ticket to enter is not entering into the state. The ticket to enter is in the doing (in the case of fighting, it is fighting). I doubt you have the ticket to enter, although you like to believe you do.

drleungjohn

03-15-2007, 09:54 PM

While I agree with both Hendrik and Knifefighter(Dale ?)

The thing is your training "should" look like it comes out in fighting-and since video is a decent way to record and document things it's a viable solution

Does your training come out in your fighting and free sparring?

Do we see Pak da or Lop da in your fighting?
Do we see angle and vector in your attacks and defense?

Can we be honest,even alone in fornt of the tv when we watch?

Hendrik

03-15-2007, 11:02 PM

Your method measures physiological states which may or may not have anything to do with fighting ability. -------

Nope, it is a matter of direct or indirect. it is not a matter of may or may not have to do.

One got to know one's car engine before one race.

My method measures fighting which is closely related to fighting ability. -----

sure, that is your believe.

however, do you, could you even do exactly the same Sparing twice? how about tape yourself doing the set, and see for yourself could you even do the same set exactly twice?

If not, what is the reality tell you?

The ticket to enter is not entering into the state. The ticket to enter is in the doing (in the case of fighting, it is fighting). I doubt you have the ticket to enter, although you like to believe you do.---------

IMHO
you could have all kind of doubt to speculate but that is your thinking not about reality.

1, could you switch state? yes or no? if not then how could you handle pressure and preserve the awareness under pressure?

do you react or response? if you could not switch state then you are reacting. if you are reacting then what is the point of using the video tape? for no matter what you think while watching the video you couldnt do most in real time because your reaction is going to prevent you from responding the way you would like anyway.

if you think you could then use the biofeedback mechine to verify your response handling ability.

2, in 1970's, while I was involve in the Kyokushin and SEA Loitoi. at that time people has already use filming trying to understand thier oponents and break the opponents technics. particulary studying Thai boxing match thinking they could prepare to defeat Thai Boxer that way, and who were those who could take advantages of the filming. only those who have excellent handling or those who have develop great awareness of thier motion, or those who capable to switch state on mind and body.

so back to square one, what is your engine performance? know that before talking about racing.

believe?
I had paticipate in kyokushin open, have saw people use the filming as aids, and I am using HRV and EEG for training.

So, in my experience, until one could switch state, video taping is not going to help much.

Since I have experience both I know. How about you? have you try HRV and EEG?