Make a living as a techer?

[Tadzio]

Hey guys..
I was wondering...can one make a living as a teacher in US? And I am talking about the three major internal (XY,BG and TJ).
We all know that this styles are not comercial and there are not to many forms or fancy movements (wich is one of the reasons why I like them!). Plus, the internal training is based is a system of unique body mechanics, that is achieved only through very hard practice and billions of repetitions of the same movement, over and over.
I often see guys that teach the orthodox and traditional stuff, only with a couple of students, and the others ( Arghh!) with a lot of them...do you yah to corrupt yourself in order to survive as a sucesful teacher?
Your toughts on this one gentleman, please.

T.

[Daelomin]

Come to Finland to teach... please. Il be your student. I have been looking for a Hsing-i teacher here, but there aren't any. It gets pretty cold in the winters here but it's nice in the summers.

[brassmonkey]

With training in China you should be able to make some good money in the right city if you were only of Chinese descent you would make a killing. Alot of people just want to come to class and learn some forms so teach them some forms and take theyre money, give them what they want as long as you stay true to the principles of your system I don't see this as corrupting. You'll always have a few serious students and you can tailor your teaching specifically for them.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I have found that teaching tradtional CMA is very hard to make a full time living at. I have seen many kung fu schools come and go, but yet seen many tae kwon do fluirsh. Part of the reason is that the general public has heard of tae kwon do and some one they know has had their child or freind involved with it, however most people dont understand the difference so they tend to go with the mainstream arts. It is true that you CAN make a cma school work but it is much harder then mcdojo's for kung fu is a way of life and mainstream schools are a good workout. I would suggest if you plan to open a school dont quit your day job and teach for the love of teaching and the art but dont plan to retire from it

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Zhin]

1. Spend time in china.
2. Get a secret chinese name.
3. Go somewhere and get a few students. Doesn't matter how many. Make sure they pay cash.
4. Create a Non-profit organization, called "Foundation for the Furthering of Tadzio Hsing-i". That way any and all expenses can be made tax free. Need to fly back to china? Tax Free! Want to go to a seminar? Tax Free! Going to a competition? Tax Free!
5. Have the students start paying the "foundation". That way they get a tax write off.

[gazza99]

Im new at this whole teaching thing, but a few of my friends have been teaching for many years. It seems that its especially difficult to make a living teaching an internal art. Its not as easy to learn, not as well known as many Mcdojo arts, it takes a bit more dedication, and the flashy uniforms, tournaments etc. dont accompany it as much (if at all) as they do in many other arts.

It is my personal belief that if you teach internal arts you do it for the love of internal arts itself and for your own growth, and not for monetary purposes.

If you take on to many students you have to compromise the quality of instruction (personal attention is decreased). Also if you just have a few students and you want/need to make $$$ you would have to charge them bookoo bucks.

This presents a problem since its hard to pay the rent for a place to train, insurance, equipment etc.... without charging a decent amount or having many students to support it. Luckily I have found a way around this, and can offer a few more suggestions if your not interested in making much, but only in producing a few well trainined people.

I am in the Air Force, I contracted with the base gym to allow me to use their facilites and for them to purchase ALL the equipment I desired in return for a small portion of the students monthy fee. I only charge $40 per month (enough to make it worth my time), and the Air Force takes only $5, so its not a bad deal! Plus the Air Force is of course Insured. I only take a few students at a time, and It forces me to train at least 4 hours a week more than i normally would at home! Its always fun to go over the basics and re-discover things you overlooked the first time around!

If your not in the military you can utilize other public gyms/space to teach, the YMCA is a good place they might even pay you and set it up!! Teaching in the park is always fun (if the weather is good),or if you have a decent size yard! Sometimes librarys will have rec. rooms you can use for free, just hunt around and you may find some free space, communtity builidings might offer you a room provided you phrase your request correctly.

Basically what im getting to is that to make any decent amount of money you might need to compromise your art, and your students ability, neither of which I will do for $$$. But if the students only want to learn some forms, and just some half As@ applications then fine, but dont fool them into thinking they are good at defending themselves.

If anyone else has made a great deal of money teaching the internal arts without compromising it, most likely they have spent decades building a reputation and students flock to them with mad cash, if anyone here has made mad cash without compromising anything PLEEAAASEEE tell me how you did it!!! I am human, and I wouldnt mind making $$ on my hobby, but thus far ive given up that idea.
hope that helps!!!
Kind regards
Gary Romel

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Xebsball]

Tadzio Hsing-I family style boxing. :D
I like that.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Paul Skrypichayko]

In Canada and the US, you can make money on the three arts. Being trained in China is a great asset, but the main thing is your business sense.

Some people have made very good money in different ways.
-private instruction for high paying clients
-large classes
-set up a "franchise" system
-police/military training
-video tapes/books/magazines
-seminars and workshops

Taiji is very well known and in high demand. 99% of people do not know about what is good quality and what is garbage.

Some masters know how to read what the public wants. Some people like to think that they will become invincible fighters, others like to think that they can "become one with the universe" and like to talk about energy, spiritualism, etc. Typical hippy people, love the mystery and mysticism, hehe. Some masters run out of material to teach, so they make stuff up, or teach very slowly. It's up to you how you approach it.

To save money, take the other members advice. Also, there are some clubs that have 100 + members, and been around for over 20 years. They only use public parks and a very cheap community centre for training. Look for advantages like this, look for people to sponsor you and your club financially

[razakdigital]

Hey, let me tell you its a great business to be in. Pa Kua and Hsing-I are fast growing arts now in the US. Everybody is on the bandwagon now...I equate it to being a preacher or a pimp...everybody is a player in the game...I've seen over the few years of this art how all of sudden all of these experts are poping up and have schools now...

on a positive note since the demand is so high and if you get your skill level up u should have no problem in the future...

[Daniel Madar]

This has to be my least favorite example of "making a business" out of bagua. This group makes me ill.

Merciless is Mercy.

[razakdigital]

you are funny cat Daniel...why do did you make your comment? enlightnen me

[count]

Maybe I can expound a bit for Daniel.

http://www.ayba.org/Bagua/S_Qinglongbaiwei.jpg

When I asked why their traditional Chinese teacher allows this I was told he has to CHANGE things for Americans.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


http://kabooom.com/af.gif

[Mojo]

LOL at that photo !
They should call that move 'Big moon reaching for toilet paper'

[Daniel Madar]

Man, I can't wait to get out to NY and meet up with you, BT and MS.

:)

I suggest you go to www.ayba.org (http://www.ayba.org) and read it for yourself.

:)

Merciless is Mercy.

[razakdigital]

I wanted to be sure on what you guys were talking about. I've been to that website before and I wanted everyone else's opinion.

I like Mojo's comment 'Big moon reaching for toilet paper'

Mojo couldn't be more right!!!

[shaolinboxer]

"Inner Mastery Training is the product of ten years of research by Dr. Michael Guen in response to requests to make sacred wisdom available to the public. A psychologist, teacher and healer, he is also formal lineage holder of a rare and sacred warrior-medicine tradition that until recently was hidden in China’s Imperial Palace. Integrating eastern and western disciplines, physical movement and self-inquiry, he addresses patriarchal delusions inherent in conventional ways and offers tools to update them with the consciousness of the modern woman’s era."

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Daniel Madar]

I was going to post that, but my vague attempts at diplomacy prevented it.

Merciless is Mercy.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Count, ouch.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[count]

These two in the picture are probably doing as instructed. It is not appropriate for bagua. When I asked why, the teachers brother said he had to change some things for Americans. Why would something be different for an American than another. If I go to a teacher I expect the real deal. Not some altered hybrid. This is a minor point. A more interesting discussion would be about the different emphasis for females than males in the schools teaching.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


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[Tadzio]

Guys, thatnks for the opinions about my question. As expected, you have very different pints of view, and I am happy I can hear from all of you.
Seeu around.

T.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't do Bagua, (I was taught the Sun style form one a long time ago), But from what"I" know of internal arts (Mostly Chao family Taji Quan), the arching of the back and extension of the posterior CHOKES Chi flow. That and the posture just looks plain ****y!!!

Royal Dragon


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[fiercest tiger]

i think if you can prove to the public that the style is good for health, fighting, culture, healing, internal health etc then they will come.

market it right, go do demo's at tourneys or lion dance shows.

or you can jump on the band wagon with the dim mak bunch...where is gary? just kidding mate! :D

hisng yi would be better than bagua for fighting!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Royal Dragon]

Only because it has a faster learning curve!!!!


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[HuangKaiVun]

I will be starting a kung fu school myself at some point.

Because I am a kung fu man, I know only one way to function: ADJUST while still knowing exactly WHAT I AM.

[Justin]

Hello,

First, I will note that this is my first comment on the board. I check in from time to time because of the information that some of you provide and I thank you for that. However, my attention was drawn to this discussion because there seems to be some information provided that is out of context. I can attest to many things in my own life that I take out of context due to making decisions based on little information. So here it goes. Having had contact with Dr. Guen I can truly state that he is one of the nicest and honorable people I know. He was a close disciple of Gong Baozai and has a strong love for his practice and the betterment of people. This brings me to my next point. The website in question merely touches on the discussion of character, which is something that is missing at times within the context of martial training. Character is something that we all can use. Dr. Guen’s purpose for the AYBA website (www.ayba.org (http://www.ayba.org)) was to stress life empowerment and character, not the martial. This however does not mean that Dr. Guen cannot hold his own. From experience he is very adept and strong in the internal principles. His purpose in life is to reach people and provide tools for those people to better themselves. He has in no way left out those individuals such as myself that enjoy the martial practice and he is always willing to impart information. I know that some of you claim to have contacted him or a classmate of his and that he supposedly changed the system to fit Americans. This statement is in regards to a teaching approach not postures. Also, concerning the cult statement if you read the site carefully it dismisses the idea of occult type practices and teacher worship. Dr. Guen’s martial background is extensive and I am sure that he would be willing to talk with any of you about that. His website does have email links, write him. I also know that he has video for sale that shows examples of the baguaquan system as taught by Gong Baozai if anyone is interested. This is not a plug. I wish all of you the best in your training and lives. Again thank you for your input and information.

Justin Bouse


AYBA (http://www.ayba.org)

[gazza99]

Good to see you here, however you come on to defend conjecture and hearsay about someone, yet you yourself beleive what comes through the grapevine and insist on not clarifing with the source. Why is that? You insist people here clarify information heard at the source, yet you fail to follow your own advice?

I understand you do not want to play politics of any kind, well neither do I. So let me set the record straight for you if your reading.

I told the individual(at the pub) I was discussing martial arts with that I only knew of Mike Sotto through you (he was suprised I knew who Mike was), I told him that I thought highly of Mike and his school. He then asked me what art I did, and what art you did, eventually he asked if I liked Bagua or Muay thai best, I said I thought Bagua was better.
So if he ASSUmed that your impression of Mike was not good that is his faulty logic, and not mine. I did nothing but give praise to Mike and his style. But I will NOT cow down and change my opinions because he is Mikes student. I would rather do Baguazhang and Taijiquan that is that,and I have a right to my own observations and conclutions. Im sorry if that hurt anyones self image or feelings.

However I did at no time give him the impression that you gave Mike the "thumbs down" as you put it. If Mikes ego is that fragile then so be it, its not of my concern. You should not be so afraid of upsetting him that you cannot try and clarify such an issue with me or anyone else.

There are very few people in this state with the knowledge you and I (and Chris M.) have. Hopefully you will resolve whatever issue is lurking in your mind (or Mikes) and see your way into being reasonable again. I will be off to war soon, so get in touch if you like. I have moved but my cell is still the same, and my website has updated info.
Kind Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Justin]

Gary,

First, I wish you the best with the current situation that you face overseas. Second, I find it interesting that you confront me here. Anyway, It is true that I cannot be sure of what was said. Because, I was not there. This however is something that you and I can discuss privately. I will tell you that I am not holding a grudge in this situation. I will contact you via your email.

Justin

[count]

Welcome to the forums. My comment about Dr. Guen changing things for Americans really had nothing to do with teaching methods at all. It was about the material and it's direct lineage connection to Gong Bao Tien. It was more of inquiry of whether this was a reflection on Gong Bao Zhai's teaching. Again, it is not my intention to put down any martial artists here. The picture I posted of some students of his holding this posture was not intended to show bad form. On the contrary, some external systems intentionally make their postures this way. But it is incorrect for bagua and from this website, that is what he is supposed to be teaching. Anyway, Since the quote I used about "changing things for Americans" came from another student of Gong Bao Zhai and not from him directly, I am willing to give Dr. Guen the benefit of the doubt. I hope he will correct his students along the way and best of luck in his teaching in America. Is he your teacher now? :)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


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[Chris McKinley]

Hi Justin,

Good to hear from you on the forum. Long time, no see. Hope things are going well. I look forward to hearing your opinions in here more often ;).

[Daniel Madar]

Argh.

Holding tongue.

Editing

[Justin]

Hello,
I wanted to post this response for a close friend. It has been difficult getting approved by this forum since they are converting their system to a new one. See below.
Justin Bouse

It is not surprising to read such a scathing dialog in regard to the AYBA web site. Your words reflect the general state of the world -- that is a disconnection from our fellow human beings (and therefore ourselves), especially when what we see threatens our belief systems. The adamant insistence that the photo reflects an incorrect practice of Baguaquan reveals a separatist mentality all too often found today.

If one can look beyond the form, in this case the posture commented upon, and instead to the principle of natural body alignment, then one can be more
accepting of differences between people. The act of suspending judgment while looking deeper can lead to a reconnection with humanity.

Signed, The woman in the photo

[Daniel Madar]

It's not the photos that I have a problem with, personally.

What I have a problem with is the attempt to turn a vibrant martial tradition into a new age health trend. In particular the whole "women's bagua" thing drives me nuts. My teacher is a woman, and if you want to tell her that she's been practicing wrong somehow, I'm sure she'd be delighted to disabuse you of the notion.

Bagua is not a method for connecting to human beings or improving the world. The theoretically "underpinnings" of bagua were put into place after the martial aspects, a trend that Dr. Guen is attempting to expand on. In psychological terms this is often called "projecting" and it is the tendency to see objects the way you want them to be, rather than the way you are. Specifically giving them traits that you hope to or fear to possess.

As for the form, I have no comments. I have seen many things in bagua I've been surprised by, so I don't feel qualified to make comments in that regard.

Merciless is Mercy.

[CD Lee]

Hey Tadzio...good to see you on the forum.

MA schools are notorious for not haveing a lot of business sense. Thats why so many CMA places go out of business after two years.

I would seriously contact schools that have been in business for 10 years or more in USA. These schools know how to run a martial arts business. I am NOT talking about the warehouse, McKarate places that have 200 students. I am talking about well known Kung Fu schools.

For example, there is one in Texas that has been in business 28 years, and they still have very small classes, teaching internal styles. No fanfare, but somebody knows how to keep the thing running.

This is what I would do. You obviously would have to build some trust and relationship with these people or they will not open up to you. However, if they know you are sincere, and are teaching to the benefit of the styles, I am sure they would be happy to help you

[RAF]

"connecting to humanity" is meaningless on an objective operational level. Such call are tied to your the persons own internal unconscious conflicts.

Daryl Sharp: Chicken Little: The Inside Story
Christopher Lasch: Culture of Narcissism
http://www.bookworld.com/innercity/innercity/book80/index.html

Even pyschologists are not immune from complexes.

;)

[count]

Please feel free to e-mail me if you would like to discuss this before your membership is approved. In the meantime, please read the entire thread and see what's being discussed. I think you will find Neither myself or Daniel said anything "scathing" at all. Only to question certain teaching and marketing methods which is what the thread is about. I think I have already apologized more than once in this thread for posting the picture so I won't apologize again but be assured I am the furthest thing from a separatist you will find and am completely open to hearing your point of view. My e-mail is in my profile.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


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[Nexus]

The most successful CMA teachers I know do healing sessions during the day and public qi gong/taijiquan classes during the nights and/or on the weekends.

If you have massage skills/energy healing techniques/accupuncture/accupressure/medical qi gong etc, there is probably a good market there for you.

- Nexus

[EARTH DRAGON]

Ok wait I just checked out this ayba site and I have to say It made me laugh!, I dont usually pick on people trying to teach martial arts but this is gone a little to far.......

first off his bagua symbol is wrong the placement of the 8 triagrams in realation to the family is wrong, either it was printed wrong on the website or the person doesnt know the correct placement.

second this was written there
Inner Mastery Training is the product of ten years of research by Dr. Michael Guen in response to requests to make sacred wisdom available to the public. A psychologist, teacher and healer, he is also formal lineage holder of a rare and sacred warrior-medicine tradition that until recently was hidden in China’s Imperial Palace. Integrating eastern and western disciplines, physical movement and self-inquiry, he addresses patriarchal delusions inherent in conventional ways and offers tools to update them with the consciousness of the modern woman’s era.


what is that supposed to mean? Im not sure what ancient warrior medicine has to do with womas lib in the modern women's era. what is this? help us someone what has the internet come to ?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[taijiquan_student]

I looked at the pictures on the site, and I was confused. Why is everybody puffing out their chest and sticking out their butt? That goes against all internal principles, and if your back is that bent(from sticking out your chest) your qi will never circulate properly. I don't know what to think really. No direspect meant to the woman in the picture, but what was all that about connecting with our fellow human being's stuff? I do daoist practice, I'm spiritual(if you want to use that word), but it doesn't take much to just look at the HISTORY of an art. Yin Fu was the Emperess's head body guard, Yang Lu Chan taught the military. They(the original practitioners) trained for martial ability, because that is what Bagua(or any internal art) was really created for. All the spiritual and health benefits are a by-product of right training.
Justin Bouse-- I don't mean to be disrespectful to your art or anything. I'm actually genuinely interested as to why you use those mechanics of putting the chest and the rearend out. This goes against what I have heard, but maybe you have a reason.(?)
Respectfully,
--T.S.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Rockwood]

There are many, many methods of Ba Gua that have not been shown to the American public. So don't knock postures you don't understand till you've tried them. Its not whats happening on the outside that counts, they are called "internal" for a reason.

I cannot vouch for the people on the particular website in question, but Gong Bao Zhai's bagua is quite effective in usage and correct in priciple. It may look different from what you've seen, but recognize that as Americans we've only scratched the surface of the variety within the internal martial arts.

-Jessy

[EARTH DRAGON]

hang on now, I realize that as you said we have not scatched the surface thing but in all my years as a martial artist you cannot say that even though we havent seen everything you cannot possiblly tell me that those postures have anything to do with anykind of bagua.
I have seen some things that make me laugh on the internet but I do not see people trying to defend such things.
If whats on the inside that counts then they have nothing but bad backs.
I would not attempt to try that posture to understand anything about that which does not resemble ba gua in the slightest which those forms represent.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Braden]

Assuming those photos as representative of the practice...

Yes, there is alot of bagua we have not seen. Nonetheless, all bagua should have some common principles which we are capable of understanding. In particular the 'old masters' have passed along the 'classics' which indicate the parameters one should strive for in correct practice. When something shares neither these common principles nor follows the parameters of the classics, should it still be called bagua? This is not to detract from the value of the practice.

[HuangKaiVun]

I want to know what's so technically terrible about the photo demonstrated, especially from the bagua guys.

[count]

I thought we were going to leave the postures alone for the more interesting topic but...

It is required in bagua for both power issuing and chi circulation that the kua be unrestricted to naturally open and close. It is also required that the 6 harmonies be balanced. Shoulders - hips, elbows - knees, wrists - ankles. Does that answer your question? I still say the more interesting topic is why the difference in the teaching for a woman?

The bagua on the site is correct though. Maybe Earth Dragon would clarify on another thread? ;)

Rockwell,
Where can I get more information on the fighting abilities of Gong Bao Zhai or what methods of bagua have been hidden from us in the states? If you don't know where I can see the facts, please tell us what you know. I actually believe there is as much available to us in the US than there is in China or Taiwan and from what I have heard, Gong Bao Zhai was not well known for fighting and most of his students emphasis the spiritual, physical or internal aspect of bagua and not the martial side. Maybe I totally misunderstand? Please clarify. :confused:

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this. I am only saying if a person is going to teach, charge money, promote a system and compete in an open marketplace that they would be successful to be honest and call it what it is.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

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[Braden]

HKV - If you check out the photos on the site... the gua are consistently closed (especially on the 'nonactive' arm); the shoulders are consistently askew from one another with the active one usually raised; the active elbow is consistently locked; the butt always sticks out and curves the spine; harder to see, but also there is no spiralling or curving, and the weight is too far forward, it also looks like they're very tense although that one could be chopped up to photography.

Not that any of this is necessarily bad; it's just not what I would call bagua, based upon the universal requirements for practice as laid out in the classics.

[Braden]

Earth Dragon - There are two common arrangements of the eight trigrams, called pre-heaven (also pre-natal, pre-birth, Fu Xi's arrangement) and post-heaven (also post-natal, post-birth, King Wen's arrangement). The bagua on the site is the correct layout for a post-heaven arrangement.

They have different meanings; with pre-heaven describing the balanced order of primal energies in the universe, and post-heaven describing the cycles of change of energies in life. A common way they would be used differently is, for example, that pre-heaven could describe genetic disorders, and post-heaven describe aquired disorders.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't know enough about the different lineages of bagua to know if this is bagua or not, which is why I asked.

But if you guys say that it isn't, it isn't.

From what I see, the moves demonstrated by the posters look a lot more like my linear Seng Men style than what I've seen thus far of Bagua. I'm not crazy about the moves myself, but there's some interesting stuff that I can see the practitioners aspiring to.

The thing that caught my eye was the low horse stances with the feet pointing straight forward. That kind of foot posture has a lot of flexible mobile power in it, especially when applied to a plum-flower pole situation.

Do the Bagua lineages have footwork like this?

[Rockwood]

Hi Gang!

First off, I want to emphasize: I HATE POLITICS!
I am concerned with one thing, learning about martial arts. I will learn from anyone anywhere. I will even try things that are totally opposed to what I have learned or seen before. I will even learn from someone who is a sworn enemy or a convicted felon, or even a republican :)!

Call me crazy, but I never judge martial arts from pictures, only from hand to hand touch. There is NO other way to judge. There are old guys I've met whose alignment looked way off. On contact I got hammered. There are young guys with perfect posture that wouldn't last ten seconds in a fight. Looks tell me nothing. Of course if you are a really great practitioner with wide range of experience, perhaps visual clues would give you some idea of someone's skill. But I think we all agree that touch is the ultimate judge.

When I was in Taiwan I got to meet Mr. He Jing Han. There are people here who are familiar with him. He learned from Gong Bao Zhai. He is a real nice guy in person. As I train in a style totally outside of his, I know NOTHING of the politics, I just respect the guy for his skills, and friendly attitude to a foreign student.

When I saw his method of bagua practice my jaw dropped. They practice with the kua totally closed, and only open it to hit. And hit hard. They lean at a 45 degree angle and lift up their steps real high and circle real fast. This is totally against the way I learned it. But I think it is arrogant to claim that it is against the "Old masters" principles. Its just another way of attaining the skills. Believe me they have extremely strong and flexible waists, and they can open and close their kua way better than I could. In other words, there are many different ways to train these skills. If it works, I refuse to write it off.

I've been beat up by people in many other styles. Thus I have learned that every martial art has something powerful, and that the diversity of methods is endless. The goal is fighting skill not pretty moves. Although Gong Bao Zhai's method is not for me, I can see that it works quite well for others.

As far as the AYBA or whatever, I don't know them or their teacher, so I can't speak on them. My only point is, don't believe what you read, don't believe what you see, don't believe what you hear, only believe what you feel. Preferably a palm strike smashing you in the face. :)

-Jess

Count-
I really hope that I haven't offended you, I have a great amout of respect for the Wu Tang system of martial arts. The stuff really works! I was lucky enough to meet Mr. Yang and Bob Figler in Ohio, those guys really know the real deal, and they were very kind in showing me some of their system. Again, even though it was different from what I know it was obviously correct in every way. In my martial arts journey, my assumptions have been challenged many times. I do believe that the more we learn about other's methods, the better perspective we have on our own. ˇ

[gazza99]

Just wanted to clear up some things that were in my previous post for the record.

"If Mikes ego is that fragile then so be it, its not of my concern. You should not be so afraid of upsetting him that you cannot try and clarify such an issue with me or anyone else"

After posting this letter to get Justins attention the matter was cleared up, and it was a simple miscommunication. Nobody harbors any hard feeling, and Mikes ego is not fragile at all, that was not the case. He was accually much more dismissive of the hearsay than I speculated. So of course nobodys "self image or feelings" were hurt by anything passed through the grapevine.
regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[count]

Absolutely no offense taken. It's only a discussion. I agree with you that photos are not the best thing to judge from because of time and dimension constrains, however, He jing Hans bagua looks quite different and shows great bagua principles. God knows there are enough old photos of me that may have been taken at an in-opportune time I'd rather not even be seen. :D I think you have made an excellent point that what is being discussed has no reflection on what Gong Bao Zhai taught or learned from Gong Bao Tien. Every teacher has their own method of transmitting their knowledge and every student has a limited ability to understand what is important.

If you liked what Mr. Wu Tang (Tony Yang) was showing, you should make a trip down here for a visit. We don't have the kind of commercial school being discussed here. Just a good group of dedicated men AND women training hard and sweating bagua. :))

Count

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[Rockwood]

Count-

Master Tsou is way up on my list of people to visit, and I am long overdue for a trip down south!

I would be really excited to check his stuff out. I am going to try and make it down to Hollywood in January, how far are you guys from there?

Its funny how different bagua can look when its all going in pretty much in the same direction. Er, circling that is...Theres so many ways to train the skills, its truly inexhaustable.

As far as seperate training for women.. Hmmm, even I can't defend that!

I think over the next couple of decades a lot of info about different styles is going to emerge, especially as connections with the mainland increase and translation gets easier. We have to work hard, make friends and usher in this new golden age of internal martial arts.

Of course the world might just go to hell in a handbasket, but thats always an option....

Take care,
Jess


b

[count]

Jess,
We are about 20 minutes from Hollywood, just the other side of Pasadena. Give me a hollar and I'll get you there.

Count

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[r.(shaolin)]

"I still say the more interesting topic is why the difference in the teaching for a woman?"

First of all, the idea that some things should be taught differently to woman is not a new one. Its been around in the CMA's long before the 'women's/new ag e movement'
For an example in my school's Lohan Shaolin tradition, the horse stance is done differently by male than by females. This is largely because the hip structure and to some degree to the fact that body mass distribution is different in wom en. Its not a hard fast rule because not all women are as effected or may prefer one over the other. Another example is in seated breathing postures the hand and foot positions are not identical, this has to do with the differences in male and fema le internal energy patterns. Other male/female issues include,
weapons, forms, etc. ,

[count]

...and seated breathing postures pertain to martial arts because...? Actually, I have heard of a few instances where girls were told differently than guys to hold the left hand on top of the right on the dan tien, and some styles of martial arts such as baji are considered hard on the uterus and a risk in case of pregnancy. I know some weapons are considered somewhat feminine. But none of this effects the methods they are taught. Pertains more to medicine than martial arts. I think it has to be considered what it is exactly you are studying? Is this accurate or an "old wives tale"? Does any of this warrant a separate system of teaching?Ï

Count

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[r.(shaolin)]

>But none of this effects the methods they are taught.<

It would appear that in some of the older systems the differences of male and female physiology has effected what and how some aspects of these system are taught. It is the relationship between mar tial effectiveness and the health effects on the long term practitioner that make the older systems and their methods interesting.
Many of these older systems have had the benefit of a history of long empirical observations.

Like I said a case in poi nt i s th e difference between the typical female and male pelvises, which when one looks carefully, is significant. . . . When talking about aliment, lines of force and power, etc. - all issues that can't ignore physiology.

>Is this accurate or a n "ol d wives tale"?<

Whether one talks about physiology, or unique issues and circumstance of women's self-defense, I believe its anything but "old wives tales".

>Does any of this warrant a separate system of teaching? <

Well if not a separate system maybe at least a system that acknowledges these differences .
ie. some very good anti-rape systems that have been developed over recent years. These acknowledge women's unique requirements and physiology..

[RAF]

Here is an interesting piece I came across on another board. It was a question about fear and machismo in the martial arts but led to an interesting turn on men and women. As you might know, Zheng Man Qing felt that about the only appropriate sports for women was taijiquan. He based this on his extensive knowledge of TCM.

This is simply food for thought:

By Frank on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 07:06 am:
Luke

Why? does one have to be macho to study
martial arts in this day and age.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jung at Heart on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 09:30 am:
Fear, Frank, fear.

Courage = ability to act in the face of fear.
Fearless = pyschosis
entitlement = unearned privilege
machismo = action through aggressiveness


We never eliminate fear but we come to understand its effect upon on us. To eliminate fear is to suppress it into the unconscious where it emerges as fearless machismo.

Often times the martial arts is used to repress fear rather than to understand it.

Taiji is even worse. Too many enter in an attempt to deal with their own aggressiveness. What happens is that they suppress it rather than accept it as a part of their make-up. They walk around with a superficial sense of peace and acceptance but in private are aggressive, mean, and sometimes physically violent with their loved ones.

Remember most masters of old fought and killed with their taiji. They did not start out in taiji with the intent of eliminating their aggressionl They started out with the intent of refining the aggression so it would be more efficient for surviving (i.e. killing). It is through their aggression and refinement of the aggression that they took on a sense of balance. However, their fear was always made conscious. That is why they did not go around killing indiscrminately and yet retained the ability to take on challenges.

They did not become passive and acceptance of evil. Their aggression was well refined, well understood, and always under check.

That is why any taiji player (wtih no martial arts background) who takes on taiji to discover enlightment should immediately go to the hard styles and fight or at least sweat through a very physically demanding regime of training. Its also why men and women should be in separate classes. Men bonding with men through the martial arts is a process of coming to terms with their own aggression. Women who enter taiji in this pseudo wanting-to-connnect attitude is their own unconscious way of trying to deal with their own aggression by projecting it on to other males. This process of projection releases them from ownership of their own aggression and uses males as scapegoats for what they fear most in themselves.

Many of the so-called "I treat women as equals" have no understanding of how this unconscious process runs through them and sublimates their own aggression onto their mates. Men and women are not equal in the way they deal and project fear. The so-called soft men are the actual exploiters of women because for them, women carry their sense of relatedness. They are teh worse abusers of women because unconsciously they fear them. Fear them because fo the power they have given women over them.

Fear is at the core of it all and we project it everywhere. Once we came out of the womb (Garden of Eden) everything was set in motion.

Taiji is the worst abuser of fear. We take push hands which is one aspect of the training and blow it far out of proportion. Friendly push hands, no one wins, self-development. Take Zheng Man Qing the biggest proponent of the peace love happiness taiji (its actually his students who projected this onto him). In his younger days he EARNED the right to enlightment and refinement by fighting and taking on challenges. His own master Yang Cheng Fu threw him around a couple of times, knocking him out. Imagine how the new age female or male would feel if they ask their "Guru" (master) a question and he slapped them around or lord forbid, knock them out. Law suits would fly, feeling would be crushed but that is traditinal taiji.

Remember we often project what we want onto others and deny those aspects we hate most in ourselves (and no I am not projecting my aggression onto taiji. The objective record of aggression is there otherwise it would have never been used as a martial art. It would have remained a so-called qi gong)

Today so many of the the taiji players take up the practice without earning their stripes as martial artists. They unconsciously feel entitled to the martial arts aspects and when it doesn't happen, they mystify it and claim supernormal powers.

Two birds with one stone. That is why taiji is dead as a martial art. The evolutionary process has been set in motion. Nude taiji tapes, elderly being exploited about the magical properties of taiji (no one tells them of consistency and sweat).

Look for bagua to go next and maybe Xing Yi (although I doubt its appeal).

As we denude taiji, look for more aggressive behavior outside of the training hall and more feigned politeness within the training hall. Also more mysticism is on its way too.

Fear is instinctual and inheritant. You don't eleiminate fear. You come to understand it, make it conscious and manage it. You don't condemn it for it serves a useful purpose in the right circumstances i.e. killing when in danger.

Fear like laughter, hunger is a basic drive and it is with us forever.

Every great taiji master of the past EARNED their right to enlightenment through the refinement of their fear by training and fighting with taiji. Survival was the bottom line. It would be better if we labled 90% of all taiji as qi gong (which is simply a by=product of the martial arts training of taiji) and stop the extinction of authentic taiji.

That is why Al Huang, Embrace the Tiger, Return to the Mountain is the most honorable and respectable taiji player. Who intentionally removed quan from the taiji and makes no bones about what hsi taiji is about MOVEMENT and FUN. The problem is that we use Taiji and taijiquan interchangeably.

We should refer to the new age qi gong taiji as TAICHI or better yet TAICHEE and the martial arts taiji as taiji or TAIJIQUAN.

Today, the tail wags the dog.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Dances with Tigers on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 08:05 pm:
Oh please. Get the shovel. Another idiot speaks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Deuceswild on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:19 am:
Good post Jung


Deuce


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Frank on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 04:39 pm:
Jung

Excellent piece...as for you dances with tigers,,
why don't you go and do just that.....prat

frank butcher


__________________________________________________

I have a hard time understanding how Zheng Man Qing could reconcile the traditional training with his stance on women. Probably very few men were up to traditional training.

Many are called but few are chosen (make it to the higher levels)
:(

[Braden]

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.

"Fearless = pyschosis"

I love to handle snakes and my father goes ashen at the mere mention of them. Is the psychosis mine?

"We never eliminate fear but we come to understand its effect upon on us."

Children are generally afraid of the dark. I certainly was. Now I'm as at home in utter darkness, so long as I'm in familiar surroundings, as I am in the light. Am I abnormal?

"To eliminate fear is to suppress it into the unconscious where it emerges as fearless machismo."

Being able to walk around my room in the dark when going to the bathroom, so as not to wake up my girlfriend, is "psychotic action through aggressiveness" (his definition of 'fearless machismo')?

"However, their fear was always made conscious. That is why they did not go around killing indiscrminately and yet retained the ability to take on challenges."

Note - central to his argument is the idea that it is fear primarily that stops us from 'going around killing indiscriminantly'. What a morbid (and I would suggest, entirely inaccurate) interpretation of humanity!

"That is why any taiji player (wtih no martial arts background) who takes on taiji to discover enlightment should immediately go to the hard styles and fight or at least sweat through a very physically demanding regime of training."

This is opposed to taijiquan, whose training is not physically demanding? Very clealy, the author has no experience with legitimate taijiquan.

"Men bonding with men through the martial arts is a process of coming to terms with their own aggression. Women who enter taiji in this pseudo wanting-to-connnect attitude is their own unconscious way of trying to deal with their own aggression by projecting it on to other males."

All men entering martial arts are doing it to come to terms with their own aggression? Strange... I did it because I wanted to explore new varieties of movement and I enjoy the martial context for physical expression. All women who enter martial arts are trying to project aggression onto other males? I can see why the poster likes Jung. Someone should tell him sometimes a rose is just a rose.

"Many of the so-called 'I treat women as equals' have no understanding of how this unconscious process runs through them and sublimates their own aggression onto their mates."

Of course he means 'subconscious' and not 'unconscious' here and elsewhere. And as always I am consistently amused by people who are so convinced as to the universality of their neurosis that they diagnosis any who do not exhibit it with mental sickness. The same affliction Freud suffered from!

"The so-called soft men are the actual exploiters of women because for them, women carry their sense of relatedness. They are teh worse abusers of women because unconsciously they fear them."

So let me get this straight... because I personally do not act with machismo (read: action through aggresiveness) I fear women? Because I treat them as equals, in truth I think they are less then me. And the only people who truly think they are equals are those who treat them as inferiors? Dear me... what a confusing world this fellow must live in.

"Friendly push hands, no one wins, self-development."

Another statement showing the author's complete ignorance of the methods of taijiquan. As I'm sure we all know, push hands is 'non-competitive' NOT because of the pseudo-psychobabble reasons proposed here, but rather because this is what is required for internal development as a beginner. Invest in loss.

"Remember we often project what we want onto others and deny those aspects we hate most in ourselves..."

If that post is a representative sample... NO KIDDING! ;)

"That is why taiji is dead as a martial art."

Is it? How strange... I'll have to inform all of the sincerely excellent fighters and hard-working martial artists I know who are dedicated to taijiquan. No doubt it will come as quite a surprise...

I could go on... but I'm sure I have too long allready.

[RAF]

Well, I guess the AYBA doesn't have anything over Jung.

We don't want a case of indigestion here, how about Zheng Man Qing's ideas?

Any contradictions?

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Today so many of the the taiji players take up the practice without earning their stripes as martial artists. They unconsciously feel entitled to the martial arts aspects and when it doesn't happen, they mystify it and claim supernormal powers. Two birds with one stone. That is why taiji is dead as a martial art. The evolutionary process has been set in motion. Nude taiji tapes, elderly being exploited about the magical properties of taiji (no one tells them of consistency and sweat).

Look for bagua to go next and maybe Xing Yi (although I doubt its appeal). [/quote]

What a crock :D This don't sound like any of the martial artists I know. I must be traveling in small circles. (oh ya, that's what sifu says I need to do for bagua) Hey, who's exploiting these elderly people anyway. I think I'll kick their A$! Anyone know where I could find a class in Nude Tai CHEE? :D :D :D

Count

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[RAF]

Hey Count, nice post. Just about at the same time as mine.

One of the Kungfu Brothers bought the nude taiji, nude yoga and nude stretch tapes. They are a hoot! They must have pulled some hookers off the street for a bit of cash. The taiji is hilarious.

One of the teaching students I knew got a call from a nudist club that once a month rents a raquet ball court and does their thing. They asked her if she could teach a nude taiji class. She gave it some thought and then turned it down.


Now, when could we get together and see if we could recruit someone for nude baji. ;)

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> nude baji [/quote] :D

Hey, did Cheng Man Ching Do any other martial arts besides Tai Chi Chuan? I really don't know much about him except stories.

Count

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[RAF]

http://www.chengmanching.com/forumrules.html

I've always had some reservations about ZMQ. He had the reputation of a fighter in his earlier life and if you read his books with some attention to detail, he even advocated stance training of sorts.

I have never seen his sword form or two man sword fight done in public. Playing his short form and push surely couldn't be enough for fighting effectiveness.

Yet there is something sensible about him.

He seems full of contradictions yet at times, one of the most sensible teachers.

I've given up and will listen to what others observe. :confused:

[RAF]

Mysterious Transmission
Over the years, and admittedly only because of Gong Baozai's masterful blend of severity and compassion, did something eventually snap inside Michael. One day he simply let go and fully embraced the surrender required of discipleship. As a result he was rewarded with a direct, bodily perception of this invaluable revelation about the utter necessity to allow oneself a clear channel of communication to the master's spirit. A deep inner serenity ensued as Michael intuitively knew he was incontrovertibly now a member of this great orthodox Baguaquan family lineage. He understood the deeper reason why Baguaquan is called a “mysterious transmission.” It wasn't only that the design of the methodology—which intricately blends martial art, medicine and mysticism into a single unified discipline—was sophisticated and profound. Even more fundamentally, “mysterious transmission.” connotes the quality of intimate human relationship between master and disciple, one that—depending upon the success of their chemistry—ultimately determines how far a disciple can go in plumbing the depths of Change.

It is Michael's firm belief that Baguaquan must have originally been an outcrop of Chinese medicine, martial arts and spirituality as it was researched and developed in ancient Daoist temples. Though there is no historical evidence for this, his belief is based on his experience with Gong Baozai, who insisted on presenting the system in terms of esoteric and moral principles that extend far beyond the domain of mere physical training, remedial healing, and hand-to-hand combat. Gong Baozai taught that physical mastery in combat as well as the practice of medicine are merely demonstrations of the practice, signifying a natural command one has gained over one's physical existence. In fact, they are a byproduct of a much broader and extensive self-inquiry.

It makes sense to Michael that this particular system had not been disseminated publicly but was always passed down through private channels. It also makes sense why the art—with its emphasis on the study of human nature and character beyond the sheer physical and energetic—has not caught the interest of present-day martial artists, including those who practice other versions of Bagua. The demand for introspection and self-sacrifice is simply too great while not offering immediate or compelling enough rewards. Current-day martial art practices, in general, set their sights far below the limits of full human potential. To aim for extraordinary self-awareness and self-mastery that borders on “saintliness” and “prophetic capability” is another kind of pursuit all together. Given the anecdotes about the early masters of Baguaquan, it is not much of a leap to assume their level of mastery bordered along the highest human attainment possible. For genuine mastery of life requires balanced development in all aspects of an individual, aspects not typically considered within the curriculum of martial or healing arts.

The message represented by the system of Baguaquan handed down by Gong Baozai is that orthodox martial art systems originally encompassed life in its totality, and taught the art of lightness, fluidity and resolution through exercise of intelligence and perspective rather than physical confrontation. In original, complete martial art practice, as was perhaps practiced in ancient temples by spiritual adepts, apprehending deeper mysteries required the letting go of worldly attachments, material and otherwise. In place of abandoned habits and patterns, there had to be available new repertoires of thinking and acting for one to latch onto in substitute of the old. This is where orthodox systems of life practice come in. By nature, they were never intended to be rigid, linear doctrines that forced one into a mold. Original systems, such as Baguaquan, Michael believes, were exceedingly high in their ideal of human attainment. They were arts of promoting utter lightness and flexibility because they fully acknowledged and embraced paradox within the fabric of life and reality. Baguaquan—with its central theme of Change—is premier in preparing one to cope with inevitable paradox by teaching one how, at all costs, to keep an inquiry open. Over his twenty-four years of discipleship, Michael can remember only a handful of times that Gong Baozai ever demonstrated a martial technique all the way to the point of delivering a finishing strike —so was the master's state of mind and being geared toward setting up a situation and preparing for the opponent's next change.

Revival of a dying tradition: Women's Baguaquan
The most difficult part of learning Baguaquan was for Michael to let go of his preoccupation with physical strength and superiority. For years, higher concepts from the system such as “principle above strength” and “prophetic capability” remained just words to him. Alone in the U.S. with no one to engage in discussion or to practice with, Michael experienced this unfulfilled potential within himself in restless frustration. Volumes of notes on esoteric dimensions of the system lay dormant in boxes. He could grasp them somewhat intellectually but was not able to bring anything forth through physical practice into real life. It was understandable to him why, for all of Gong Baozai's efforts with one student after another, the art was continuing to die. It was simply not taking hold in people's lives. Receptivity in Asia seemed even less than in western countries where eastern ideas were at least more fertile. Few had the appreciation, fewer had the perseverance, and even fewer felt the inner mission to try to revive it. Revival—or at least preservation of the essential wisdom and mysticism of this dying practice—indeed became Michael's primary underlying motivation for starting to teach a sixth generation in the San Francisco Bay Area.

The desire to dabble in higher aspects of the art he could not yet fully understand actually provided direction as how to instruct his students. One idea that came to mind in 1989 was to revive a lost women's dimension of traditional Baguaquan practice. This idea was motivated by what Gong Baozai taught about the relationship between men's and women's training. First, this particular system of Baguaquan has retained the rudiments of a rare women's form of martial art practice. Second, at advanced stages of development, men naturally shift the emphasis of their practice toward women's principles of softness, fluidity and intelligence. To get clear on what the women's principles were and what a woman's way of practice looked like in real life, Michael rallied the participation of a large community of women in Northern California. He engaged them, taught them, and watched what they did with their training and relationships over a several-year period, all the while compiling copious data. From this raw, basic, and at times treacherous research, Women's Baguaquan was formed, a revival of a sacred warrior-medicine dimension of the original Baguaquan practice designed exclusively to honor a woman's physiology and temperament. There are currently women instructors who took part in this early process. In them, the seeds of a new beginning for women's life practice in the world has been planted. They have their own story to tell and will do so when the time is ripe.

New Women's Lineage
It is Michael's vision that an independent women's warrior-medicine lineage needs to be formed in the world, unlike any that has ever existed. Based on a nearly lost science of Chinese medicine that honors a woman's unique physiology and temperament, Women's Baguaquan is suitable for the task. The world is in dire need of contemporary female masters to serve as role models and guides. But if they are to competently fulfill their leadership roles in the world, women first need to undergo specialized discipline and training. Unlike women's lineages of the past, this modern lineage must be free of the delusions of patriarchy yet, at the same time, patiently embrace patriarchy's shortcomings. To qualify as a higher path, this new women's warrior-medicine practice must refuse to promote women who remain either secretly vengeful against or in favor of patriarchy, lest patriarchal delusions of retaliation and greed continue to be propagated—and the world will not heal.

AYBA History.

__________________________________________________


It seems that both Jung and AYBA are different sides of the same coin? Both implicitly address the daoist principle of Yin/Yang/Female/Male dichotomy but come to somewhat different conclusions.

Is there enough flexibility in bagua, taiji and other traditional arts to adapt them to the present social structure and needs? Has the Yin/Yang/Female/Male dichotomy outlived its operational and explanatory value?

Where does one draw the line between traditional training and today's need for change?

Are the traditional training of bagua, taiji simply outdated?

Is the AYBA/ZMQ the wave of the future or will our traditional ways simply guarantee the extinction of the art?

Perhaps the AYBA/ZMQ/ provides us an insight into the direction of the future of martial arts.

The truth is that only a minority of a minority play martial arts and women are even less interested.

We train women in baji/pi gua/ba gua/praying mantis/taijiquan but very few, including men, go to into its depths. :(

[Braden]

I don't think that female/male : yin/yang ever held explicit validity. Of course the two dichotomies are linked in the sense of primal energies: receptive/creative; but the further implication that literally women are yin and men are yang has never, I think, been a given.

Genetically speaking, women are not the 'yin creatures' our society usually percieves them to be. With a genetic predisposition for higher pain tolerance, greater lower body strength, better hand-eye coordination, etc there's no reason they can't be as 'yang' as any man.

In terms of societal conditioning, of course this is often not the case. But shouldn't such a 'profound' and 'introspective' art as bagua be able to strip away presuppositions and show you who you really are?

Even according to the most classical thought, people are attributed 'yin' and 'yang' much more so by factors such as age, diet, and general disposition than of gender. As always with classical thought, this makes much more sense to me than the popularly touted simplification thereof.

In regards to such a few people sincerely investigating such arts as these - I see no reason to believe why the present state is any different than how it has always been. The image of classical 'kungfu' China where everyone and their dog had mastered at least one 'gung' and legendary fights between kungfu masters resulted in the flattening of entire cities is clearly a fantastical one. Much is made of the urgent and real need for self-defense value in classical China, which drove the quality of kungfu training; however, I'm not sure how much validity this has - is you had a real and urgent need for self-defense, would you take up a strict regime of circlewalking? I certainly wouldn't. A more likely candidate for the 'driving up of kungfu quality' would be the concept of mountain hermits; and indeed this is a prevalent one in martial history. However, with the way society is progressing, almost all of us have the ability to, functionally, live as a 'mountain hermit' - it just looks on the surface to be much different. The legends are filled with stories of the 'old masters' and what remarkable feats the accomplished. But considering the vast number of practitioners - to have 10 or 20 'great masters' in hundreds and sometimes thousands of years isn't particularly remarkable. And how immortal were these great masters? Since bagua is relatively new, we can still look upon them without too much interference from the mists of time. We know Fu Chen Sung tripped and fell over his own feet while publically demonstrating bagua. We have Sun Lu Tang's daughter to dispell many of the myths about him. This is not to demean, in any way, these great masters - they are truly something to aspire to. But it is to mortalize them - to make them something to truly aspire to, rather than a lofty ideal to dream of. There are 'great masters' alive today, which later generations will revere. Someone reading this has probably trained with one. There are truly excellent practitioners - and (this is truly amazing when you think about it) they are in every corner of the world! And yes, most people.. suck. But there's no reason to believe more people such now than did in the past.

[Justin]

There has been discussion on your message board regarding the idea of women training differently from men.

I have trained exclusively in Baguaquan with my teacher Dr. Michael
Guen. From his teacher, Master Gong Baozai, he received some rare secrets to women's training. Within a large community of women over the last few years we have taken these secrets and begun to revive a lost feminine dimension of internal Chinese martial arts. Some of the discoveries we have made are revolutionary in nature, discoveries that even traditional female teachers teaching the old-style male way are not likely to be able to identify with. No matter how skilled or expert I may become, if I am not able to claim my unique feminine qualities as a modern woman, I don't feel I will ever become completely fulfilled as a human being.
>
I love Baguaquan because it is opening and freeing. The posture is deliberately held a certain way to access deeper levels - on the physical and beyond.
>
>The woman in the photo

[Justin]

To the Count,

I would like to address your belief that Gong Baozai changed Gong Baotian's system. First, I am aware your understanding of Bagua has come via your teacher Jason Tsou, who is a student of the late Liu Yin Chiao. I am a student of Dr. Michael Guen and have studied extensively with him. During the time we have spent together he shared with me quite a bit of his personal experience over the twenty-four years he knew and studied with Gong Baozai.
First, I have to note that Dr. Guen has studied other internal styles besides Baguaquan. For many years he was intensively involved in Yang style Taijiquan under the direct Yang family lineage, which specializes in Taiji repelling power. He has also practiced Xingyiquan, Qigong, and meditation, as well as various other styles. I myself have a 20+ year background in the Chinese Martial Arts. This has enabled me to talk extensively on the internal arts level with Dr. Guen, including the nature of the basic Baguaquan body posture that has been the target of criticism. Dr. Guen is very aware of the discrepancy and together with his lineage brother He Jinghan has conducted much inquiry on the matter of posture over the last ten years.
Secondly, I find Master Liu Yin Chiao’s history as a student of Gong Baotian very interesting. Dr. Guen once related to me some confidential information he learned while in Taiwan. Liu Yin Chiao's main exposure to Gong Baotian was during a visit Gong Baotian made to Liu's home town of Yantai, which is close to Gong Baotian's home village of Qingshan in Shandong Province. Gong Baotian liked Liu Yin Chiao and agreed to take him on as a disciple. Liu Yin Chiao only trained with Gong Baotian for a total of two years. I know that some will say that because he already had martial knowledge it was easy for him to learn this system. However, I have to point out that the system of Gong Baotian is so extensive that it could not be learned in its entirety in two years. Many years of association and communication is needed with a teacher to gain insight into even the simplest principles of Baguaquan.
Gong Baozai was from the same village as Gong Baotian. Gong Baozai studied with Gong Baotian from age seven. He also learned with other family members of Gong Baotian and this continued for decades. Gong Baozai’s only formal teacher was Gong Baotian and his relatives. Knowing the immense respect he carried for his teacher and his lineage it is unlikely that he changed anything.
My third point is that after both Liu Yin Chiao and Gong Baozai were in Taiwan, Liu Yin Chiao frequently in the early years sought out Gong Baozai for further instruction. Gong Baozai had no problem with doing this because Liu Yin Chiao was a younger lineage brother. However, Liu Yin Chiao had a hard time publicly admitting his deficiencies. He sought instruction from Gong Baozai to fill in the gaps missing in his training with Gong Baotian. Over the years Dr. Guen also witnessed many members of Wu Tan who would visit Gong Baozai to learn Baguaquan, only to leave frustrated at discovering that the things they had learned were merely bits and pieces of the real system.
Finally, This is in no way meant to demean Master Liu Yin Chiao. Liu Yin Chiao knew what he knew and had much knowledge in a many areas of Chinese boxing. However, this statement is meant to shed light on the history of the complete system taught to Gong Baozai by Gong Baotian. I respect the faith that you have in your lineage and hope you realize that there are many ways that Baguaquan has been interpreted and taught, and much has to do with how much the master chose to share. In Gong Baotian's lineage being a formal lineage disciple means only that. There is no guarantee to what extent that they learned or how well the material has been mastered. Given the benefits I have myself received from learning under Dr. Guen it is my belief that Master Gong Baozai did not change what he was taught.

Respectfully,
Justin Bouse

[RAF]

"My third point is that after both Liu Yin Chiao and Gong Baozai were in Taiwan, Liu Yin
Chiao frequently in the early years sought out Gong Baozai for further instruction. Gong
Baozai had no problem with doing this because Liu Yin Chiao was a younger lineage brother. However, Liu Yin Chiao had a hard time publicly admitting his deficiencies. He sought instruction from Gong Baozai to fill in the gaps missing in his training with Gong Baotian. Over the years Dr. Guen also witnessed many members of Wu Tan who would visit Gong Baozai to learn Baguaquan, only to leave frustrated at discovering that the things they had learned were merely bits and pieces of the real system.

Finally, This is in no way meant to demean Master Liu Yin Chiao. Liu Yin Chiao knew what he knew and had much knowledge in a many areas of Chinese boxing."


No, Justin, this is exactly meant to demean the late Liu Yun Qiao. This is a fist within a velvet glove. Much of what you state hides behind a veil of innuendo. You or for that matter the late Gong Bao Zai would not have anyway of knowing what Liu Yun Qiao knew or didn't know regarding bagua. As I stated elsewhere, I know what my teacher heard when Liu and Gong Bao Zai met in the late 1970s and it doesn't corroborate what you or others claim.

The reverse of the story is as likely feasible, knowing Liu's personality (from my teacher who spent 8 solid years with him). In order for others to keep face, it was not uncommon for Liu to state that he did not know or remember something, especially if he felt he was being tested or peppered with a thousand technical questions. People often mistake this as his not knowing but it might have been quite the opposite. His response of "nali, nali" could have easily been made to save the face of your own GM but I wouldn't want to conclude this since I was not there.

It is a pretty bold and dishonest statement to say that Liu had a difficult time admitting his "deficiencies" publicly. Liu was a very humble man who more likely went in the other direction of not admitting the extent of his knowledge. Do you think that he never met other bagua masters and compared notes? Do you know the risk who took in undertaking training with Gong Bao Tian? Do you really think the Warlord/sponsor, Zhang Xiang Wu would pay for false or incomplete teaching? Please, there is no way to prove your points or mine. Keep your beliefs, criticize the system if you wish, but please stop the innuendo about Liu's incomplete knowledge of bagua. You, your master or GM would not and could not know the extent of what Liu learned or taught.

The odd thing is none of the criticism comes to light until his death. Its funny but in 1992 or so there was an issue in the Pa Kua Journal featuring Gong Bao Zai and Liu Yun Qiao. These criticisms could have been put forth publicly at that time. If your Grandmaster or others did not address these issues then, why has it now become an issue? Assuming for a moment your GM's stories were correct and he did not make them public, then where do you or any of his students find the audacity to make such claims? You contradict your own GM's teachings.

Are there disciples of Liu Yun Qiao disparaging your system? Is this some kind of marketing strategy as your system takes hold in the United States?

Why didn't your teacher write this out in your websites history?

Now, I don't know what you or your system teaches or knows other than what appears on your website. Perhaps you are right but I am not interested in getting into a flame war. People know by way of the websites what your system offers publicly and have some idea of what Liu offered publicly. But note that he considered bagua an art more complex and higher than baji and held its secrets more closely. One should be careful who they judge as knowing bagua and making disparaging remarks publicly.

So the public will choose. As your system begins to become public, you will soon experience students making claims about what they learned or didn't learn from Gong Bao Zai and innuendo will also abound.

I hope you are much kinder to your Grandmaster than you were to Liu Yun Qiao. In the end, none of us really know what the extent and knowledge of each respective master.

Everything now rests on belief and faith.

[Braden]

Shoe - other foot.

Other foot - shoe.

[count]

Slow down there lad. You are really off base and quite wrong. First of all, I have never said, nor do I have the belief that Gong Bao Zhai changed anything he learned from Gong Bao Tien. I do have a belief the Gong Bao Zhai would have only been about 13 years old when Gong Bao Tien died. Am I wrong? Also, I have never said anything at all about Dr. Guen's knowledge of internal or any of his postures in his photo's. I have only questioned some of his teaching methods. But since I have never studied from him, I really don't know his methods except for what has been pictured on his website. Enough said about that!

You are also (obviously defensive of your sifu) incorrect about the history of Liu Yun Qaio. In the past a student would either be recommended to a teacher or be family. For Gong Bao Tien to take a student at all would require a great recommendation, considerable skills and alot of money or whatever Gong Bao Tien liked to buy with his money. Liu Yun Qaio had all three and I'm quite sure he didn't part with them for nothing. As far as Liu Yun Quao requesting additional lessons from Gong Bao Zhai, It's unlikely but I do know where you get that idea. I also know where you get the idea that students at Wu Tang in Taiwan only got bits and pieces of the bagua Liu Yun Qaio taught. All the people who learned bagua from Liu Yun Quao either left Taiwan or do not teach so it is unlikely you will find anyone who can say what Grandmaster Liu taught in Taiwan.

If you are truly interested in actual history, real conversations about Yin style bagua or anything at all about my background (actually you can get that from my profile), I would invite you to join my private forum. I set it up originally to avoid these public arguments but so far there have been no arguments at all over there. Only the beginnings of some good topics about bagua. don't feel like you would get bombarded over there either. Most of the members have studied from Gong Bao Zhai's lineage. He Jing Han and several of his students are also members. I'm sure you'll find several people you already know there. Go to This webpage (http://privacyplease.net/cgi-bin/gongboard/UltraBoard.cgi) and join. Once I add you as a member you can view the topics and post if you want to. If you want to argue or disagree over there, that's fine too. I won't hold it against you.

PS, I just noticed the reply from RAF, I shall have to look at it in depth before further comment. ;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


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[This message was edited by count on 11-01-01 at 06:24 PM.]