The time honored tradition of cross training.

[The Xia]

Based on talk from other threads I got the idea to start a new topic. I don't really get why some people think it's taboo for a traditionalist to cross train. Styles are created from other styles so what does that say? It says that the creator of that style practiced those other arts in order to put them into a new art. Also, many masters past and present practice multiple styles. These are facts. Cross training is a tradition in CMA and martial arts all over. So I say that cross training is a traditional martial arts practice. I want to know where this notion that cross training is some forbidden fruit that true traditionalists should avoid came from. Also, who came up with the belief that Bruce Lee and/or modern MMA invented cross training?

[SevenStar]

nobody said bruce lee invented cross training. the samurai were cross trained, technically. These days, when people mention cross training, it's the thought of training striking and grappling. In tma, you don't really see that due to the lack of grappling in cma in general (I'm not talking about chin na and shuai chiao, but ground grappling). you saw people training clf and lama pai, longfist and taiji, etc. multiple standup styles, which yes, is cross training. But, as stated that's not the general line thought of today when cross training is mentioned. boxing and wrestling is thought of as cross training. mantis and judo is thought of as cross training. karate and wing chun is not.

that said, CMA made it taboo on their own, I'm guessing. ever since the advent of the ufc, I've heard several tma say "we don't need to learn grappling," followed by some reason or excuse, ranging from they have grappling in their system to they won't be taken down.

[Black Jack II]

The Samurai really got into the crosstraining act after the battle of nagashino in 1575. They picked up the king of personal defense, firearms training after they were defeated by peasants with guns.

Crosstraining is so nothing new.

[The Xia]

nobody said bruce lee invented cross training.
I have heard some people say this many times.

the samurai were cross trained, technically. These days, when people mention cross training, it's the thought of training striking and grappling. In tma, you don't really see that due to the lack of grappling in cma in general (I'm not talking about chin na and shuai chiao, but ground grappling). you saw people training clf and lama pai, longfist and taiji, etc. multiple standup styles, which yes, is cross training. But, as stated that's not the general line thought of today when cross training is mentioned. boxing and wrestling is thought of as cross training. mantis and judo is thought of as cross training. karate and wing chun is not.

that said, CMA made it taboo on their own, I'm guessing. ever since the advent of the ufc, I've heard several tma say "we don't need to learn grappling," followed by some reason or excuse, ranging from they have grappling in their system to they won't be taken down.
Actually, there is ground grappling in Shuai Jiao. But this is all beside the point. I see no reason why cross training in styles that have similarities is wrong. In fact, I think it can help martial development. I also feel that cross training in styles with far different concepts and focus is good for the martial artist. It's all about doing what is right for you. This is what martial artists have been doing for years. I know what you mean on the excuses. But I think this has more to do with what I was talking about on that thread in the self defense forum. Modern so-called traditionalists vs. what is really traditional. However, one thing you mentioned I would say has some truth to it. There is grappling in CMA. The thing is that all too many people don't understand their own arts. This doesn't mean you should stay away from styles that have more of a grappling focus though.

[SevenStar]

I have heard some people say this many times.

there are idiots born daily...


But this is all beside the point. I see no reason why cross training in styles that have similarities is wrong.

who said it was wrong?


However, one thing you mentioned I would say has some truth to it. There is grappling in CMA. The thing is that all too many people don't understand their own arts. This doesn't mean you should stay away from styles that have more of a grappling focus though.

I trhink the main issue there is re-invention of the wheel. "it's in the forms", "you have to know your style well enough," etc. are fine, but with a grappling style all of that is more straightforward. It's right in your face. No hidden techniques, no combing thrugh forms.

[bodhitree]

What about non martial cross training. Tennis or basketball can help with wind and footwork. Hockey (need I say more, talk about randori), Football makes you tough, golf well, makes you, how you say, a, pansy? Kidding.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

People have been cross training TCMA forever. Find any teacher above 50-60 from China, and you'll see he did a dozen styles. The taboo of cross training is a recent tradition inherent to the small minds of weak skilled teachers who feared their students learning from someone who was 'better' than they were. They worried about losing their students and their income, so they tried to make people loyal to one style.

How absurd.

[SevenStar]

agreed....

[xcakid]

I totally believe in cross training. I practice Kung Fu and GUN fu. :D Cause a good martial arts always carries a gun.

[SPJ]

crossing training is not a taboo at all.

even in early 20th century, as guns and canon introduced into the Qing's new army led by Yuan Shi Kai, more and more of TCMA people were out of jobs--

if your teacher talked to the other teacher and agreed, then the student may go and learn a different style from a different teacher.

---

:)

[EarthDragon]

Our system of 8 step praying mantis is comprised of 18 styles. One of these styles teaches ground fighting for all those MMA that insist that kung fu has no ground fighting. Can you say cross train?????????

[SevenStar]

FWIW, several styles have some form of ground striking or "grappling" be it in forms or elsewhere. The issue is how much you train it. judo has strikes, but how many judoka are known for striking? How many 8 step guys are known for having awesome ground grappling skill?

[EarthDragon]

seven star, Not sure how to answer your question... but I will try
so honestly how many 8 step guys do you know? how many have you touched hands with or rolled around with?do you have any experience with 8 step? my point. follows

We have 360 ground fighting techniques, these are to be used from a fallen position. again real life of a fight is probable that it will go to the ground so every TCMA has this. in the year 2007 or in the year 1587 a fight is a fight. every martial art has to have certain apsects to stand the test of time if they dont and are insufficant they would have died many years ago.
I trained and sparred with a fighter in 2 seperate UFC's that used our ground fighting skills and he won both of his bouts.
So I would have to say that it depends on what you are training for... my point is you can focus on 1 certain aspect of your given style. i.e stand up fighting, ground fighting, etc etc or you can focus on healing, herbs, internal, meditation etc etc but that doesnt mean that for instance xing yi doesnt have other parts to make it a whole.

I share a school with a nihon goshin aikido instructor.. does aikido have a ton of kicks and strikes?????? most would say no this shows the lack of understanding and typical stereotyping that is prevelant in the martial arts today..

[David Jamieson]

I've learned Karate, Kickboxing, Boxing, Fencing, Kungfu, Wrestling and a dib of this and a dab of that.

Mixed all together and with continued practice, they are what I use to not only exercise, but to spar and if need be, that's what I would fight with too...unless I had a gun, in which case I would end any alteraction or kerfuffle more quickly. :p

[SevenStar]

seven star, Not sure how to answer your question... but I will try
so honestly how many 8 step guys do you know? how many have you touched hands with or rolled around with?do you have any experience with 8 step? my point. follows

We have 360 ground fighting techniques, these are to be used from a fallen position. again real life of a fight is probable that it will go to the ground so every TCMA has this. in the year 2007 or in the year 1587 a fight is a fight. every martial art has to have certain apsects to stand the test of time if they dont and are insufficant they would have died many years ago.
I trained and sparred with a fighter in 2 seperate UFC's that used our ground fighting skills and he won both of his bouts.
So I would have to say that it depends on what you are training for... my point is you can focus on 1 certain aspect of your given style. i.e stand up fighting, ground fighting, etc etc or you can focus on healing, herbs, internal, meditation etc etc but that doesnt mean that for instance xing yi doesnt have other parts to make it a whole.

I share a school with a nihon goshin aikido instructor.. does aikido have a ton of kicks and strikes?????? most would say no this shows the lack of understanding and typical stereotyping that is prevelant in the martial arts today..

joel sutton. two things there. first, those matches were in 1995. not to take anything away from joel,but ANY ground experience back then woulda put him light years ahead of the game. also,both of those matches ended due to strikes. none of that says anything at all about 8step grappling. since then, he has lost 4 fights,but I don't remember how many were tap outs respect goes to him for competing, but my question was how many mantis guys are known for ground grappling skill?

aikido does have strikes, but that isn't its strong point. I wouldn't go into aikido expecting to become a great striker, nor would I train muay thai to become a good grappler.

[Oso]

but my question was how many mantis guys are known for ground grappling skill?

none, ime. not from pure mantis training. mantis108 says the ditang stuff has it but I have yet to experience it and I doubt it would be grappling...more striking after you have thrown and/or trying to strike after being thrown. I'm finding that it's just not there...but, I certainly have not seen it all by a long shot...this is just my hunch.

there seems to be something there culturally about not fighting on the ground and an assumption that the throw ends the fight...which, with out the ability to recover from a throw could have been the truth.

imho, i think a lot of stuff i've learned can be extrapolated to the ground...but I see it because of my experience in wrestling and jujitsu.

but, that also doesn't make total sense IF the Mongolian wrestling->shuai chiao->kung fu link is a true straight link....

i just have yet to meet any pure kung fu guys who have any grappling skill who haven't crosstrained.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I caught some criticism/praise for saying I planned on cross-training, or even considering leaving my current school (the Do). I've been around to different schools over the past month to see what other dudes do on a daily basis, even a BJJ school for a month. I'm checking out a wushu guy that teaches "real" Shaolin Chuan. I told some dudes that in my school, and they asked, "why cross-train...you don't get enough here?"

I just said, there's lots of versions of what's truly "shaolin" out there....or what's "truly" effective.....I guess I want to experience it all. Strangely enough, (and if you've ever read anything I've written, I'm a skeptic of the Do), Shaolin Chuan isn't much different from what the Do does.....:eek:

Some dudes on this forum ribbed me for it--more for the "real shaolin" thing than the "truly effective" thing. I think there's a kind of "gang mentality" in CMA. That's why many Shaolin guys (there are a lot of em, on here at least) are kind of preachy and tend to look down on cross-training. Then again, most Masters have looked around and done their fair share of cross-training, in order to pick up tips......b/c no one Master knows everything.....just like you cross-train in collegiate studies. You get science from a science teacher (centerline theory from a centerline style), and art from an art teacher (circularity from a more circular style like Taoist/crane arts).

[Adventure427]

Interesting topic for me to find here as i was just discussing this with my sifu. (kind of)

I'll just speak of my prior experience. I train in 2 arts now but thats besides the point. As others have said, alot of masters typically have trained in several styles and thats how newer styles are created. Nihon Goshin Aikido for example is based off of aikido, jujitsu, judo, karate.....(and i think yawara is how you say it) Master Morita trained in all these arts and took what he felt complimented his 'style' to create this one...

And i feel thats what its all about. I used to practice mostly boxing/kickboxing/grappling/jujitsu (some from reading it, and trying it on real people/resistant opponents, and some from real trainning...before i could afford much trainning)...(oh yeah, and a kung fu (real trainning) that was a mix of hung gar, toy gar, and fut gar)...

So all in all....in a real situation...i would resort (naturally) to what i'm most comfortable with, and what i trained most in. Which would be a mix of boxing/hung gar/grapping. And definantly a few of the aikido techniques too.

I finally found two arts that i realllly like and plan to stick with for a long period of time, (NGA/8step) hopefully master both of them (now that i can afford it) But i will probably always resort to some of the older stuff i used to practice too.

We are all making our own art constantly based on what we choose to put into our own practice. We make the art our own.

[The Xia]

Interesting topic for me to find here as i was just discussing this with my sifu. (kind of)

I'll just speak of my prior experience. I train in 2 arts now but thats besides the point. As others have said, alot of masters typically have trained in several styles and thats how newer styles are created. Nihon Goshin Aikido for example is based off of aikido, jujitsu, judo, karate.....(and i think yawara is how you say it) Master Morita trained in all these arts and took what he felt complimented his 'style' to create this one...

And i feel thats what its all about. I used to practice mostly boxing/kickboxing/grappling/jujitsu (some from reading it, and trying it on real people/resistant opponents, and some from real trainning...before i could afford much trainning)...(oh yeah, and a kung fu (real trainning) that was a mix of hung gar, toy gar, and fut gar)...

So all in all....in a real situation...i would resort (naturally) to what i'm most comfortable with, and what i trained most in. Which would be a mix of boxing/hung gar/grapping. And definantly a few of the aikido techniques too.

I finally found two arts that i realllly like and plan to stick with for a long period of time, (NGA/8step) hopefully master both of them (now that i can afford it) But i will probably always resort to some of the older stuff i used to practice too.

We are all making our own art constantly based on what we choose to put into our own practice. We make the art our own.
I think this is where some people who criticize the concept of different styles miss the point. Conforming to a style is how it begins. Later on it becomes the style that conforms to you. For example, in your case it becomes not merely 8 Step Mantis, but your 8 Step Mantis.

[Shossain]

A few of my own thoughts on this thread.. can't comment on what others are saying on different styles and why people say or do what and what is right or what is not so right as I am not experienced enough to talk about all these things..

Why cross training? for practicing art or for fighting at the ring or fighting at the street or for achieving various skills.. if it is practicing art it does not matter if someone cross trains or not.. if it is for fighting at the ring one has to be abide by specific rules in that ring and need to train for that where cross training may or may not help.. if it is for fighting at the road then a big question? if anything at all will work or not as one already suggested that if there is a gun that will be used first and no training would work against that unless someone rally learns how to avoid or catch bullets.. and to do that one really need to achieve the skill of doing that which may not leave much time to cross train other things.. so, may be, at the end of the day, it is the skill that is more important than whether cross training or not or if cross training is required or not..

It is more likely that one can achieve highest level of skills on a few things and not a lot of things.. this is mostly because to achieve highest level of skills one need to practice more and more of that thing and not many other things.. and unless skills are achieved cross training on all the styles and arts invented and presented so far may not help at all as one may not stand even a few moments to apply any of those.. moreover, skills beyond some limit needs more intensive training and time leaving far less time for practicing too many different styles.. but if achieved any additional skill level beyond certain limit can make significant difference.. like achieving superior speed, accuracy, power and timing.. all together.. someone may become invincible with any specific style and without any cross training as one with such skill level may win without the other getting any chance to apply anything.. one may say that I am living in a fantasy world.. but as I feel.. that is a real possibility..

Saying all these.. I don't see any problem with cross training.. and I don't see any problem with someone talking against it too.. more important is what one want to achieve and how to do that.. in my opinion it is possible to be a master without cross training and winning against people doing cross training..

About Bruce Lee.. my opinion is that.. many people may have cross trained many different arts or styles even at ancient times.. but may be he is the one who has brought forward and presented an art itself as MMA.. many may say that it does not have this and that or lacks here and there.. may be they are right.. but that may be because of his early demise.. may be he would have filled those gaps if stayed alive for some more time.. who knows..

[Shaolin Wookie]

in my opinion it is possible to be a master without cross training and winning against people doing cross training..



Very true. I'd wager some of the best masters would be those that kept to their bread and butter.

But at the same time, if you really enjoy MA, and not just one particular MA, dabbling here and there gives you a wider scope of MA appreciation. Plus, it really shows you how much many MA's have in common, and it opens up options in the forms/drills you already practice. It kind of broadens the horizon, so to speak.

[mambi]

Question. So how long should one practice on art before training in another. ? 6 months of J.J then 4 months of Kempo followed by etc..Kempo instructor would say achieve brown belt before attempting anything else.. So where would the line be drawn ? Old question: when practicing new style: Praying Mantis . cross train with forms known from previous style and modify the form itself to suit the new style ? . Cross training is an unlimited view ,and to me the only way.You would also read that in the day of the Samurai some fell into Zen Practice tea ceremony and even poetry and so on.. Did Chinese style suffer the same sissyfication? . So many questions so pass the bottle.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would say: keep each style it's own style. Do your Longfist the way your Longfist teacher says, and don't mix in some kempo. Power distribution does change between styles, so to maximize it, you have to keep to structural basics. But then play with them in your own way, to make them natural for you. They might actually blend, who knows? You'll learn something. But usually, cross-training really improves your knowledge of fighting theory, whcih will really open up what you already know. You'll see why certain things in Longfist are the way they art, and how they like/unlike Kempo, for instance. And you'll often find....hey, I already knew that....I just didn't know I did....I just do it slightly different.