failed awareness vid

[Black Jack II]

This is a pretty shocking video of street crime. Despite the fact that the victim is elderly it showcases that the best form of self defense is awareness and that criminal violence is not some outdated punch-block mythology.

Notice the ruse setup before he goes off. Take what you can from it.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cae7d25e9f&o=1

P.S. I wonder if the victim was black and the attacker was white would this be filed under the liberal hate crime outlook??

[David Jamieson]

are you trying to get a gig as an internet shock jock or something?

so what do you suggest? ma training in modern tactical operations for the elderly?
or are you trying to invoke hatred towards black inner city youth?
or perhaps you have the need more cops agenda.

this stuff happens and it happens because some people are scumbags.
It's not gonna stop because we can watch it on tv now.

It is a fruitless thing to show.

Be the change in the world that you want to see. That's all you, or I can do.

[Black Jack II]

It is a fruitless thing to show.

No, for people who don't have there heads in the sand and don't want to talk about absurd martial art fluff all day, or poser garage bands, its a very accurate thing to talk about.

It's a realistic topic about rbsd, not some punch-drunk post about chi vampirism or if bruce lee was a good fighter...:rolleyes:


ma training in modern tactical operations for the elderly?

I mentioned already that this is an elderly person, that does not detract from what this showcases, it happens to all ages.


or are you trying to invoke hatred towards black inner city youth?

nope, this is what it is.


It's not gonna stop because we can watch it on tv now.

No, but it can showcase aspects of martial training, awareness is one of the least talked about aspects of the martial arts, often due to ego based ideals about what one teaches, this is a martial art forum and it fits.


Be the change in the world that you want to see. That's all you, or I can do

I hate when people write cosmetic junk like this in the hopes that it will some how come out sounding cosmic and profound instead.

[EarthDragon]

black jack the vid you posted is disgusting and distrubing. I suggest locking this thread and not showcasing it to the public to generate a topic of conversation.

there are better ways to get your point across ands spark up converation about your interest than to attach that type of file.

[Black Jack II]

black jack the vid you posted is disgusting and distrubing. I suggest locking this thread and not showcasing it to the public to generate a topic of conversation

Your kidding right?

You really need some thicker skin mr. my shifu for life, if you plan on teaching self defense in any actual context.This is a perfect example of my point, I never stated it's not supposed to be disgusting or distrubing, but it is not OT like a lot of the posts here so I don't see why it would be locked.

It's not the video of us army soliders getting sniped, it is a martial based post, with a actual non-lethal street attack.

[Knifefighter]

black jack the vid you posted is disgusting and distrubing. I suggest locking this thread and not showcasing it to the public to generate a topic of conversation.

there are better ways to get your point across ands spark up converation about your interest than to attach that type of file.

I disagree. I think it is important to be aware of this kind of thing and the repercussions.

Based on her body language, I'm pretty sure that woman was aware of what was going to happen to her. The problem was, she was cornered and had no way out. Before that, I doubt she had a chance to be "aware", as I don't think her accoster made his appearance when she would have had the option to escape.

Some good SD training could have helped her out tremendously.

[rogue]

A very disturbing video, but it does show what real bad guys are like. They are predators that will go after those they consider weak or easy prey. And that doesn't mean just old people. It's good to sometimes see that the real world isn't only dimwitted teens throwing hooks and submission fighters.

[EarthDragon]

Black jack, please refrain from comments like I need thicker skin. The video is not about me so me having thicker skin doesnt make any sense in this case.

My point was you posted a video of an 80 year old lady who was brutally attacked by a 20-30 year old black man tying to make a point about situational awarness?

I have taught many seminars about rape prevention and situational awareness and you dont need to show a video of a woman actually getting raped to get your point across.

knife,
I didnt say it was'nt important to be aware we just didnt need a graphic video of it to discuss it thats all.

[Donkwoon]

I think that Black Jack did the right thing in posting this. I think more people, not less, should see it. If one vid makes one group or race or whatever look bad then too bad. We should discuss these things. Other wise what is this forum for?

All things, providing they're on topic, should be up for review and discussion. Does anyone here think that censorship would be a good thing?

[Knifefighter]

knife,
I didnt say it was'nt important to be aware we just didnt need a graphic video of it to discuss it thats all.

I disagree. Seeing how these things actaully happen is extremely important in terms of teaching people both to be aware, as well to the specific physical things they can do to protect themselves.

Too many "self-defense" instructors, as well as the people they are teaching, have no idea of how an actual assault goes down. It is very important to know this from a technical standpoint. It helps both the instructors and the students to see these types of things.

[rogue]

I have taught many seminars about rape prevention and situational awareness and you dont need to show a video of a woman actually getting raped to get your point across.

I've been involved in SD seminars too, and many times the participants are having a great old time. They are keeping what can happen past arms reach as a coping mechanism and sometimes need to see or hear what can really happen to them to bring things into focus.

[rogue]

knife,
I didnt say it was'nt important to be aware we just didnt need a graphic video of it to discuss it thats all.

Were we discussing it before the video?

[David Jamieson]

No, for people who don't have there heads in the sand and don't want to talk about absurd martial art fluff all day, or poser garage bands, its a very accurate thing to talk about.

It's a realistic topic about rbsd, not some punch-drunk post about chi vampirism or if bruce lee was a good fighter...:rolleyes:



I mentioned already that this is an elderly person, that does not detract from what this showcases, it happens to all ages.

?

nope, this is what it is.



No, but it can showcase aspects of martial training, awareness is one of the least talked about aspects of the martial arts, often due to ego based ideals about what one teaches, this is a martial art forum and it fits.



I hate when people write cosmetic junk like this in the hopes that it will some how come out sounding cosmic and profound instead.

hahahahaha, personal attacks?

ok.

you are a little *** and a ***** as well and i would pwn you and your flabby yet skinny douchebagness of a body with my superior martial stylings, but you are gutless and weak and hide like kip dynamite behind a keyboard trying to get attention in a ho like way, because you are only that.

there you go. now go learn how to be a real man you little trollop or I'll tell your mommy you been wasting a lot of time trolling and postuing snuff films.

rbsd my arse. you git, you have no freaking idea what rbsd really is.
post crap, then leave it and posture like it means something. It's snuff and you are a dirt bag for putting it here. why don't you just go **** in someones lap? Maybe that would get you the attention you crave.

:p

is that what you were looking for BJ2? I know you are capable of understanding a good dump rant like that. You probably get a lot of it.lol

[SifuAbel]

What a moronic subject. Just what in the HELL did you expect this old lady to do? She would have been assaulted the same way in any other place.

Yeah, they go down like this. Some dude spots the weakest mark they can find and assaults them. If the old lady was you and he still went that way. You need some roids. Change your look, do something. 'CAUSE SMELL LIKE FOOD.

What are you going to do? Teach her the OODA loop. Have her hum at the wall and attack the bullet man? The woman couldn't even get up a frikkin ramp.

You fools that see this as some sort wake up call need deep psychotherapy.

[Donkwoon]

What about that car that drove right by? I wonder if they saw what was going on?

[David Jamieson]

psychotherapy?

I think what they need is a punch in the face because they've never had one.

Had blow job 2 ever experienced any sort of thing close to the physical pain that this woman has had the bad fortune of having to endure, he wouldn't even consider thinking that this is a valid video tiopic of discussion.

people who dig on this stuff are sick little ****s, period.

These are the same little punk ass douchebags who have never had what they really need. IE: a good beating from their daddy to humble their silly little asses.

[SifuAbel]

use the color commands, makes for cleaner cursing withg no funky italic stuff.

****

[Donkwoon]

This is not good. Why are folks trying to shut this disscusion down? I don't think anyone here is "getting off" on this. If this is not a valid topic for a kung fu forum then please just state why.

[SifuAbel]

Because its a retarded example, first off.

You can talk about this all you want. But for the love of pete, don't post exploitive clips of people whom can NEVER meet the criteria of SD.

[David Jamieson]

it's snuff.

the clip was posted here before, we discussed, many of us found it distatseful, basically snuff and what value does it have?

are we all going to be determined to go out and start classes for octogenarians to defend themselves against predatory crack addicts?

Please, by all means, if anyone has a single thing to contribute that will bring value to dumping a snuff vid into the forum, then go right ahead.

[David Jamieson]

Or, you can think of it this way, if someone dropped a clip in here of US soldiers getting blown up by an ied, would they be lacking awareness? would there be value to the discussion of them getting some rbsd training in awareness?


if you can't draw the common sense from the idea that this has little or no redeeming value to anyones understanding of martial arts, then I would have to surmise that there is need for more practice and more trips around the sun.

[Donkwoon]

To me it's not about what the old woman could do. It's more about the fact that ther're are folks that do live with ther're heads buried in the sand and although it may be painfull to look at stuff like that, it may be better for them in the long run.

If someone who is on the fence about quitting martial arts sees that and then instead of quitting trains even harder, is it still a snuff film?

[SifuAbel]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

[Black Jack II]

it's snuff.

It's not snuff you skinny momma's boy. It's a real video of a real situation. Don't you freedom hating Canadians know the difference?


I think what they need is a punch in the face because they've never had one.

What you don't know could fill a book Kung Lik a D!ck. You have always been one of the most asine tards on this board. Always trying to sound like your not some out of shape inarticulate white guy pretending to be the mysterious wise asian from the mountain.

LOL@ the toolbag wanting to sound like a comic strip from the 40's.

Go back to your poser band in the hopes of being young again.:p




But for the love of pete, don't post exploitive clips of people whom can NEVER meet the criteria of SD.

It's not the person its the situation. Big difference and I stated that going in.

[David Jamieson]

To me it's not about what the old woman could do. It's more about the fact that ther're are folks that do live with ther're heads buried in the sand and although it may be painfull to look at stuff like that, it may be better for them in the long run.

If someone who is on the fence about quitting martial arts sees that and then instead of quitting trains even harder, is it still a snuff film?

Yes, it's still snuff.

People that are on the fence about quitting martial arts need to find it within themselves to either continue or drop off. I fail to see the value of your hypothetical.

are you saying we should actively use snuff to motivate people to train in martial arts?

[SifuAbel]

It doesn't matter. Posting a disgusting clip that only casually makes a point is lazy and gross. Find a different one if you must.

[David Jamieson]

It's not snuff you skinny momma's boy. It's a real video of a real situation. Don't you freedom hating Canadians know the difference?



What you don't know could fill a book Kung Lik a D!ck. You have always been one of the most asine tards on this board. Always trying to sound like your not some out of shape inarticulate white guy pretending to be the mysterious wise asian from the mountain.

LOL@ the toolbag wanting to sound like a comic strip from the 40's.

Go back to your poser band in the hopes of being young again.:p



.

It's not the person its the situation. Big difference and I stated that going in.

Lol. you are a little insecure creep who can't handle the brilliant light of my pure awesomeness. I'd feel pity for you if I wasn't actually so indifferent to you and your ilk. You're little more than a troll, with no talent and no balls to match.

I'd slap that cock outta yer mouth for you if you weren't a cowering mouthy little p.o.s hiding in your little mastubatory fantasy world of thinking you actually are someone.

My rock stylings will destroy you and your pitiful **** through a kazoo thing that you try to use to get into the ranks of american idol.

bwahahahaha.

[Black Jack II]

Posting a disgusting clip that only casually makes a point is lazy and gross

Some here don't see it that way. Because of technology like youtube people who have not experianced personal assualts can start to get just a bit closer to its starkness. Think of it as just another learning tool for your students.

Personally I think its clips like these that showcase why certain teachers don't want them shown.

[Knifefighter]

What are you going to do? Teach her the OODA loop. Have her hum at the wall and attack the bullet man?

I'm sure she couldn't do much with the B.S. kung fu stuff that is your perspective.

However, someone who knows what they are doing could easily give her some very effective tools that would have led to a much better outcome than what happened in that situation.

[rogue]

Yeah, like pull a 9 as soon as she heard the footsteps behind her and do a little Glock Fu on his ass during the interview. If she was stronger I'd say use a .45 and do a Kimber kata for him.;)

[David Jamieson]

I'm sure she couldn't do much with the B.S. kung fu stuff that is your perspective.

However, someone who knows what they are doing could easily give her some very effective tools that would have led to a much better outcome than what happened in that situation.

Here we go.

as for watching crap and thinking that brings you closer to understanding, then I would have to say that you do not live in the real world blow job 2. by your reckoning, watching superman will teach us that we can fly if only we went to a different world in a crystal spaceship. :rolleyes:

oh, and kf, you're practically an octogenarian, what would you share down at the seniors home that would drastically change the reality that when you are old, you are weak? That is what the mechanism of respect is for, and when it is lacking in the sociopaths and psychopaths, it is given as a religious or legal directive.

you offer little and I am pretty much 100% certain none of you in favour of pondering snuff clips volunteer your time at the seniors residences to ensure that these things do not happen to them.

worthless trolling, more and more. Thankfully, the kungfu mind will always prevail. It will match, then better and you will fade away, tired of being belittled for your foolishness.

hardeeharhar.:D

[Golden Arms]

Knife, I disagree...I dont think there is anything she could have done unless she had a gun strapped to her walker with an apache style system for aiming where the pilot looks. Seriously, no matter if she trained BJJ, stick fighting and had a stick, situational awareness for 50 years, all those would have done for her would be to let her know she was in trouble. Do you honestly think that lady likely had the mindset, and ability even with lifelong training, to do much to that guy if she was in the state that she is barely making it up a ramp with a walker?

[Knifefighter]

are you saying we should actively use snuff to motivate people to train in martial arts?

No, we should use real life situations to show exactly what happens and what a person can do to defend themselves in that situation.

[Knifefighter]

Do you honestly think that lady likely had the mindset, and ability even with lifelong training, to do much to that guy if she was in the state that she is barely making it up a ramp with a walker?

Yep... she sure could.

[Knifefighter]

Thankfully, the kungfu mind will always prevail. It will match, then better and you will fade away, tired of being belittled for your foolishness.


Bwajhajajhajaaa... I could have her kicking your kungfu mind @$$ in short order.

[David Jamieson]

Knife, I disagree...I dont think there is anything she could have done unless she had a gun strapped to her walker with an apache style system for aiming where the pilot looks. Seriously, no matter if she trained BJJ, stick fighting and had a stick, situational awareness for 50 years, all those would have done for her would be to let her know she was in trouble. Do you honestly think that lady likely had the mindset, and ability even with lifelong training, to do much to that guy if she was in the state that she is barely making it up a ramp with a walker?

Knife has shown before that he cannot answer questions like yours GA because that would just make to much sense and burn his purpose for being here which is to only troll the kf players.

[David Jamieson]

Bwajhajajhajaaa... I could have her kicking your kungfu mind @$$ in short order.

sure you could. I've got mopre kungfu in the tip of my cock than can be found in your whole aging and decrepit body.

let's compare fitness in ten years when I am your age now. If you are still alive and not dead from heart failure or kidney failure or liver shutdown, then perhaps you will finally be convinced of the value of the holistic approach of traditional chinese martial arts.

when I am 63, and you are surely dead, or incapacitated by a series of strokes brought on by poor diet, improper exercise and flagging health that you never really took care of, others will be even more amazed.

when I am 93, I expect Ill be into Bagua by that point, I will tell tales of these days when we had to laboriously type stuff out on the internet as a form of entertainment. or maybe not. lol

[cjurakpt]

while I don't disagree with BJ II's overall premise, that it's important to see what things look like "for real" in order to be able to realistically prepare for them, this particular situation, IMHO, does not fit the criteria as a useful scenario, for several reasons:
1) the woman is clearly "frail elderly", and, having worked with that population, believe me, they are in no shape either physically or psychologically to be trained for any sort of physical defense techniques; also, escape is obviously not an option for the same reason

2) she strikes me as economicaly disadvanteged, even possibly homeless: why else would someone her age, in her obviously diminshed physical condition, be pushing a cart that looks like it has al her stuff in it up onto a loading dock, alone? if she homeless, then is already in constant survival mode, and probably lives her life avoiding people like her attacker anyway - this day, her luck ran out;

3) even if she had good OODA skills, she's dealing with a mentally derainged individual, and for people like that, who don't respond to the "normal" cues most everyone else does, attempts at redirection, etc. could actually cause an escalation; I say he is unstable, because his motive is obviously violence as opposed to robbery

all in all, I don't think BJ II's intention was to gratuitously foist a snuff film on us, but I think his choice of material was not the most educationally relevant; and while KF has made some thoughtful constructive comments, I obviously beg to differ with his optimism in this particular case, with all due respect to his general perspective;

as for those of you who object to the content, well, go around your neighborhood and form a watch, volunteer at an elderly center, do visits to elderly shut-ins, whatever: maybe put your justifiable sense of outrage to good use...

oh, and finally - DJ (who in particular seems to be really wacked out on the paint fumes lately) and BJ II: you guys need to rent a hotel room and work things out one way or the other...

[Knifefighter]

let's compare fitness in ten years when I am your age now. If you are still alive and not dead from heart failure or kidney failure or liver shutdown, then perhaps you will finally be convinced of the value of the holistic approach of traditional chinese martial arts.

Bwhahahahaha.... Do you know who you are talking to? A strength and conditioning specialist who has trained two to three times per day for the last 30 years.

I've had an open challenge for the last 20 years for anyone who could do the same workouts that I do. So far, the longest someone has lasted is the first hour.

And you are the flabby-out of shape middle aged guy on the crappy rock videos, right?

[David Jamieson]

Bwhahahahaha.... Do you know who you are talking to? A strength and conditioning specialist who has trained two to three times per day for the last 30 years.

I've had an open challenge for the last 20 years for anyone who could do the same workouts that I do. So far, the longest someone has lasted is the first hour.

And you are the flabby-out of shape middle aged guy on the crappy rock videos, right?

sure you are. you are a munchkin with a personality disorder and insecurity complex who cannot come to terms with the fact that not only is he not a hasbeen, he's a never was.

specialist my arse. in what? eating donuts and talking crap on kungfu forums? getting your picture taken with others does not make you them. pffft, open challenge, hows that working out for you? lol.

you and your ilk are a joke dude. at least im not afraid to put me out there and be me. I KNOW that some people are just gonna hate me, but I can accept that and what's more, the numbers are even when I get the love.


mmmmm sweet love.

and chris, i don't know why everyone gets a scrunch on when I go off on someone for being an asshat. I don't pop in to your gangbangs when someone punks on yoru school because I am 100% certain you are more than capable of dealing with the mealymouths that punk on you.

dale, you're one of the only 50 year old punks I know. hahahaha, except for iggy, buyt he's for real. so deflate that chest buddy, I'm not, nor will I ever be impressed and I don't give two ****s at a rolling donut what you think about me. :p

truly. :) <----yes mon, I am smug.

[Knifefighter]

1) the woman is clearly "frail elderly", and, having worked with that population, believe me, they are in no shape either physically or psychologically to be trained for any sort of physical defense techniques; also, escape is obviously not an option for the same reason

I disagree... with just some basic training she could easily rip a blade into that guy's eye before he even knew what was happening. I've been witness to an older woman (who had no training at all) with a knife taking on three guys in their 20's.

It doesn't take much training with a blade to make someone pretty lethal, no matter what their physical capacities.



even if she had good OODA skills, she's dealing with a mentally derainged individual, and for people like that, who don't respond to the "normal" cues most everyone else does, attempts at redirection, etc. could actually cause an escalation; I say he is unstable, because his motive is obviously violence as opposed to robbery

She has the perfect natural cues to disrupt his OODA loop. She is elderly and supposedly helpless. Once she is out of that mode, he will instantly be behind.

[David Jamieson]

I disagree... with just some basic training she could easily rip a blade into that guy's eye before he even knew what was happening. I've been witness to an older woman (who had no training at all) with a knife taking on three guys in their 20's.

It doesn't take much training with a blade to make someone pretty lethal, no matter what their physical capacities.




She has the perfect natural cues to disrupt his OODA loop. She is elderly and supposedly helpless. Once she is out of that mode, he will instantly be behind.


wow, you got issues dude. seriously, if you're not on drugs, maybe you might wanna consider getting on some.

[Knifefighter]

sure you are. you are a munchkin with a personality disorder and insecurity complex who cannot come to terms with the fact that not only is he not a hasbeen, he's a never was.

BwhwhaHAHAHAAH!!! This is coming from the 40-year-old-f@rt who is pretending to be a crappy punk rocker. BwhwhaHAHAHAAH!!!

[cjurakpt]

I disagree... with just some basic training she could easily rip a blade into that guy's eye before he even knew what was happening. I've been witness to an older woman (who had no training at all) with a knife taking on three guys in their 20's.

ok, let's assume that physically she is capable of even doing that (I am not saying she is, just assuming), I don't think that psychologically it's even possible to get her to the point that she would be willing to actually kill someone (last I heard, that was the assumption when you take out a knife - be ready to kill someone): I would argue that the woman you describe above is not a reasonable example, since she does not fit the psychological profile of a potential victim; for the typical, frail elderly person, they are fearful of movement in general - now you want them to become a killer? also, i don't hink she would be capable of continuous attacks, so unless she got the first shot just right (and I don't think that basic training is going to be enough for her to do that), I don't think sh'ed get a second...
anyway, I'm not saying it isn't possible, it just strikes me as highly improbable; unless you have some specific evidence to the contrary...


It doesn't take much training with a blade to make someone pretty lethal, no matter what their physical capacities.
while there are certainly many senior citizens in good shape (my dad, at 75, teaches tennis almost everyday and just cracked a rib skiiing this week), there are many who are just a slip away from becoming nursing home residents; most have poor balance, decreased reaction time, diminished vision, etc. etc. putting a knife into their hands will not help too much if they lack basic hysical sparameters needed to effetively wield it


She has the perfect natural cues to disrupt his OODA loop. She is elderly and supposedly helpless. Once she is out of that mode, he will instantly be behind.
again, if she appears helpless, but really isn't, fine; but if someone actually is helpless, no amount of OODA is going to help them after a certain point

anyway, we can just agree to disagree - if you have an opportunity to actually work with someone in their 70's + who fits the profile of the woman in question and they are able to effectively fend off an attack with a blade, I would certainly concede you your point (I won't even ask for a video ;) )...

[cjurakpt]

and chris, i don't know why everyone gets a scrunch on when I go off on someone for being an asshat. I don't pop in to your gangbangs when someone punks on yoru school because I am 100% certain you are more than capable of dealing with the mealymouths that punk on you.

DJ, I don't really care what you do, I'm not criticising you - I'm just commenting that you write some totally wigged out sh!t now and again (which I find amusing, but not particularly compelling in terms of your ability to make an argument), and seem a bit off the wall - but hey, whatever, it's a free internet, be yourself and be proud of it!

[David Jamieson]

BwhwhaHAHAHAAH!!! This is coming from the 40-year-old-f@rt who is pretending to be a crappy punk rocker. BwhwhaHAHAHAAH!!!


do i detect envy?

it's ok to be tone deaf knife, lots of people are. that's why there are musicians. and that really is me playing dude. Im not pretending. that there is a cranked fender wailing.

ps. keith richards is nearly 20 years my senior. as is Ozzy, Iggy, and pretty much every rock band that you like. so i'll keep rocking and to be honest, you're too old to learn the guitar, you just won't be able to grasp it now that you are past the prime time to pick one up and groove.

[David Jamieson]

DJ, I don't really care what you do, I'm not criticising you - I'm just commenting that you write some totally wigged out sh!t now and again (which I find amusing, but not particularly compelling in terms of your ability to make an argument), and seem a bit off the wall - but hey, whatever, it's a free internet, be yourself and be proud of it!

thanks, I am. sometimes, I gotta read it again myself. :p If it's particularly sardonic and evil, I might adjust, it depends on how much vitriol needs to be returned to sender. :)

you see, if someone gives you something that you do not want and did not ask for, then it is not wrong to return it fully.

[Knifefighter]

do i detect envy?it's ok to be tone deaf knife, lots of people are. that's why there are musicians. and that really is me playing dude. Im not pretending. that there is a cranked fender wailing.
.

Envy? Of a tone-deaf wannabe, never-was pretend rocker? Bwhahahahaha...

[David Jamieson]

Envy? Of a tone-deaf wannabe, never-was pretend rocker? Bwhahahahaha...


Clearly, you want a battle of wits to happen, but I feel a little weary of fighting someone who is unarmed. :D

Besides, I'm just having fun. My day job pays too good to throw it all away on gigging.

what can you do besides...uh, whatever it is you do? I paint too! and cook! wickedly tasty stuff. I spend a lot of time actually enjoying life. heck, even chastising you ****s is a kick for the hot few minutes it takes from my porn surfing. :D

[SifuAbel]

I'm sure she couldn't do much with the B.S. kung fu stuff that is your perspective.

However, someone who knows what they are doing could easily give her some very effective tools that would have led to a much better outcome than what happened in that situation.

Such as?..... pulling a rabbit out of your ass. Please, spare me the "MMA would have saved her" speech. Its patheic that you are going this way.
No video, didn't happen. thats the mantra here. Show me the same condition of woman fending off that gorilla and you'll have sometihing there.

A knife? The better to slit your own throat with in that situation.

[rogue]

putting a knife into their hands will not help too much if they lack basic hysical sparameters needed to effetively wield it.

There is at least one very simple two handed method of using a knife that even this lady could have used against that thug. It takes about 5 minutes to learn and train and works darn well.
As far as helping her gain the mindset to use the knife seeing what a real thug will do to you can help a little with that.

[Oso]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/02/22/seniors.mugged.ap/index.html

[rogue]

Thanks Oso, good article. Don't screw with US seniors, especially when they want to get back to the buffet on the ship.


SAN JOSE, Costa Rica (AP) -- A tour group of U.S. senior citizens fought off a band of muggers in eastern Costa Rica, sending two of the assailants fleeing and killing a third, police said Thursday.

One of the tourists -- a retired U.S. serviceman whom officials estimated was in his 70s -- allegedly put Warner Segura in a headlock and broke his clavicle after the 20-year-old and two other men armed with a knife and gun held up their tour bus Wednesday, said Luis Hernandez, the police chief of Limon, 80 miles east of San Jose.

The Americans had arrived in Limon on the Carnival Cruise Lines ship Carnival Liberty.

"It was a group of 12 senior citizens from the United States who were going to spend a few hours in the area, but their tour bus entered a dangerous sector known as Cieneguita", Hernandez said.

The tourists drove Segura to the local Red Cross branch, but he was declared dead, Hernandez said. He declined to give the names or hometowns of the tourists.

The Red Cross also treated one of the tourists for an anxiety attack, Hernandez said.

Costa Rican authorities said they did not plan to file charges against the tourists, who left on their cruise ship after the incident.

"They were in their right to defend themselves after being held up," Hernandez said.

Hernandez said Segura had previous charges against him for assaults.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Knifefighter]

Such as?..... pulling a rabbit out of your ass. Please, spare me the "MMA would have saved her" speech. Its patheic that you are going this way.
No video, didn't happen. thats the mantra here. Show me the same condition of woman fending off that gorilla and you'll have sometihing there.

Of course the kung fu guys wouldn't know what to have the lady do... they think she would have to jump around and pretend to be a bug like they do... only in slow motion like all the old kung fu people do.

No video, but Oso provided the link to the incident that just happened. 12 unarmed old f@rts vs. three armed robbers. One 70- something guy trained in wrestling/judo/BJJ kills one of the robbers with a sweet choke.

Too bad there is no video. It would be very instructional to see the specific tactics of 12 oldsters vs. three young guys who were armed. Of course the PC, tree hugging dweebs would be crying about snuff films and the horribleness of it all.




A knife? The better to slit your own throat with in that situation.

Really? You think you could take out an old lady who had been trained with a blade? She'd gut you before you even knew what happened.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best defense for the elderly is to hold their left arm, croak, and hit the ground.

Then, to keep the mugger from rummaging through pockets, **** your pants, if you haven't already....

[Black Jack II]

First off,

I never stated to not take notice of the elderly woman in the clip. It's just the base situation which is the more important part to take notice of. I honestly believe that certain kinds of people on this forum don't like these types of clips because it brings out the limitations of what they do to the forefront.

It's hard to sound like a knowit all thousand year old fortune cookie when reality can be broadcasted right in your face.:rolleyes:

As for SD and the elderly, there are TONS of encounters of them defending themselves in a number of different contexts. Here are two examples.

http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=5933859

http://www.wlwt.com/news/4702890/detail.html

As for DJ....LMAO, all that jittery guy ever says is undefined cr@p to sound like grand master po, the guy has a major asian fever syndrome, well that and he likes to talks a lot about c@cks and blowjobs a lot.

[Golden Arms]

I agree that some training could put the average senior in a safer place. I dont agree that this lady could hold someone off with a knife...He had a backpack, he could just swing it hard at her hands, displace her weight and then kick or ram her against the wall before she could reorient, then use the knife on her if he wanted. You SERIOUSLY think otherwise? If so maybe you need to deal with some young angry people that are motivated to get money no matter what and see the difference in intent and ethics vs. the average senior woman with a walker.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best defense for the elderly is to hold their left arm, croak, and hit the ground.

Then, to keep the mugger from rummaging through pockets, **** your pants, if you haven't already....

I repeat.......

[Knifefighter]

I agree that some training could put the average senior in a safer place. I dont agree that this lady could hold someone off with a knife...He had a backpack, he could just swing it hard at her hands, displace her weight and then kick or ram her against the wall before she could reorient, then use the knife on her if he wanted. You SERIOUSLY think otherwise?
You have no idea how a knife should be used for SD in a situation like that. It's not about "holding him off".

He wouldn't hit her with his backpack. He would do exactly what he did on that clip because he would never know she had a blade until after he had been stabbed.


If so maybe you need to deal with some young angry people that are motivated to get money no matter what and see the difference in intent and ethics vs. the average senior woman with a walker.

That's exactly the reason that people should see these types of videos... victims need to have the same intent.

[Golden Arms]

I suppose you are never wrong, and that she uses that walker for fun, not to keep her balance, so she could let go of it to draw a knife easily. :rolleyes: Go on thinking you are a god that can call every situation in life, it doesnt really affect me.

[Black Jack II]

He wouldn't hit her with his backpack. He would do exactly what he did on that clip because he would never know she had a blade until after he had been stabbed.

This is a good point that I think people are passing over. It's not about mano a mano at this point.

btw, is that a walker or a grocery cart, looks like a grocery cart and she is going into a building.

[Golden Arms]

Again, is it realistic to expect a person that uses two hands to support herself as she walks, while on a ramp, to take a hand off and draw a concealed weapon, not to mention all the other factors? If you answer yes, to use KF's logic, would you then consider this a HIGH PERCENTAGE technique?

[Black Jack II]

Again, is it realistic to expect a person that uses two hands to support herself as she walks, while on a ramp, to take a hand off and draw a concealed weapon,

First, we don't know that at all, but if she did need two hands it still has some merit. My point is a bit different than Knifes, I was trying to talk about the setup stage of the attack, which is easily seen on the vid.


would you then consider this a HIGH PERCENTAGE technique?

Not sure I follow, you mean deploying the blade and waiting to respond?

[Golden Arms]

Blackjack, I dont disagree necessarily with your point, but I do disagree with anyone that thinks she could have done much different other than not being there on that day at that time under those circumstances. Look at the cart when it falls, its a walker with a basket in it for putting stuff in there. And percentage wise, I am talking about a person that is old and using walking assistance, being able to pull a knife without it being seen until its too late for the assailant successfully, while under adrenaline dump, on slanted ground, with the weight of the cart/walker pushing back against her body at the same time. I personally wouldnt want to be her in that situation, even if I was packing a sawed off shotgun, given her likely attributes and lack thereof.

[SifuAbel]

Gee, kF, why don't you just call us all *****s. Is that your answer for everything, bug hopping? Give it a rest, dippy. Your humanity meter is dropping faster than your sperm count. The last thing anyone wants to read here is your, stick up the bum, westren male, wank-a-thon, "i'm superior"(in your dreams), verbal diareah.

This horse**** about giving the old lady a blade is dream land RSBD Bull****.

I don't care if she was once a frikkin zorro with a knife. THAT lady is not going to benefit from anything other than an escort. That guy was WAY bigger, faster, stronger, obviously younger, wearing heavy clothing. The two handed method would only serve to make he fall off her walker. You fail at logic. F.

As for the old folks in the bus, thats another story entirely. That 70 year old guy is the reason they turned the tide. You can't compare the two. There are plenty of healthy older people out there. But THAT old lady ISN'T one of them.

LOL @ carrying a concealed weapon. She probably couldn't find her house keys with a flashlight and both hands much less whip out a blade ala ninja. LMAO!!

[Black Jack II]

LOL @ carrying a concealed weapon. She probably could find her house keys with a flashlight and both hands much less whip out a blade ala ninja. LMAO!!

LOL. Ok that is a tad funny.

But back to what this was supposed to be about. Take the old lady out and put yourself in. I was trying to draw attention to the ruse tactic used by the skell at the attacks opening.

[SifuAbel]

First and foremost, if I were there instead of the old lady I'd be up that ramp and through the door before that guy can even walk up to me.

Secondly, I wouldn't allow him to have the higher ground.

Third, I wouldn't allow him to gain distance on me.

Fouthly, that kind of coward doesn't pick on grown men , obviously. :rolleyes:

And finally, that punch would have been answered. :cool:

[Black Jack II]

The senior self defense courses I have seen have never addressed using folders as a means of protection. Not saying this is wrong at all, as someone pointed out before that not all seniors are even close to being in the same category.

If the old lady here did have some sort of training, model mugging or whatever, maybe she would of been able to detect the setup in time or learned to trust her gut instinct enough to attempt to get through that door to safety. Plus she may of gotten some wound management out of her training, covering the vitals when down, to protect her head from stomps and so forth, which is seen on this vid.

Saying that you would not of been in that situation kinda defeats the purpose of the clip.

[SifuAbel]

No way. No way possible. She was stuck and HE knew it. His speed and mobility factor preempt most any setup awarness. It doesn't matter where she goes. He was probably stalking her for a while. The only thing that could have saved her is to spot him stalking her WAY before the incident. call a cop, etc. And that is IF she was even able to see him.

[Black Jack II]

His speed and mobility factor preempt most any setup awarness.

In this I tend to agree, taking judgement of what we don't see in the video, the front of the location where she was walking and so forth.


It doesn't matter where she goes. He was probably stalking her for a while.

100&#37; agree.


The only thing that could have saved her is to spot him stalking her WAY before the incident

Don't rush into such a standard statement. We don't live in a world were everything tends to be absolute.

Also, just so we are in line, my point is about people seeing the "ruse" or "setup" that the punk is using on the old lady. It's a great example captured on film of a thug using those type of tactics before the pre-emptive. That alone is important for someone's students to see besides the frank violence of the act.

[SifuAbel]

theres no audio, we don't know what he said, or if there was a ruse at all. Or if he even needed a ruse.

[Black Jack II]

theres no audio, we don't know what he said, or if there was a ruse at all. Or if he even needed a ruse.

I used the term "ruse" to stipulate the setup and I think it clearly shows a setup to help take the lady off guard before his strike.

Now since there is no audio, I can't say 100&#37; for sure on what he said at all, but if you look at the perps body language you see him trying to district her before the attack.

[SifuAbel]

Oh lord, distract from what? He didn't need one. :rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

its like a tiger stalking a monkey in a glass bubble....there wasnt really anything that woman could have done.

other than not be there in the first....

[Black Jack II]

Oh lord, distract from what? He didn't need one

That does not matter, distractions and setups are a stock in trade of street assualts and you can see him doing something here at the start up phase.

It's clear to anyone who takes the time to research the topic.

[SifuAbel]

No, present ANOTHER video that better illustrates this.

This one is just sick.

[Black Jack II]

No, present ANOTHER video that better illustrates this.

This one showcases it pretty clear, the reason why certain people are not wanting to see it is because of the clear revulsion factor, this is a good learning tool on what violence looks like, some just are looking at it from a more emotional standpoint and can't see past that.


This one is just sick.

Well of course it is. It's a old lady getting mugged.

[SifuAbel]

This one isn't showcasing anything. Its sick. You are mistaking a lesson with violence voyeurism.
find one with audio at least.

[Black Jack II]

You are mistaking a lesson with violence voyeurism

Again, like the start of this whole thread, others and I do not see it that way. One could say you are mistaking this just as voyeurism and not as a lesson.

Those kinds of sentances go both ways. Does no one good. I am working on one with audio.

[SifuAbel]

One could say you are mistaking this just as voyeurism and not as a lesson.


Yes a voyeur would say that. :rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

Sifu Abel you are not really helping, just let it lay. If it was an amazing example, the thread would have filled up with curious people. Instead its just become what it is ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

She could go XXX Vin Diesel style, and mount rocket launchers in her walker, but the backblast would probably send her fragile-osteoperosis-frame into the nearest brick wall, killing her, or the detonation of the projectile just might singe her with the blast.......

[Oso]

was that first clip in NY?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/10/elderly.robbed.ap/index.html

[Black Jack II]

Wow, good find.

I think it was.

[Oso]

what a fvcker. hope somebody catches him.

there were vids...the 101 year old woman was feisty...possibly a candidate for some training of some sort. the 85 year old was a more classically styled 'victim'.

but, even so, irrelevent of her temperment...the 101 year old still needs a walker to get around it's doubtful she could fend off an attacker.

[Oso]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/14/mugging.outrage.ap/index.html

[Black Jack II]

John Brown, 45, said the mugger must have been on drugs, because no rational person would do such a thing

It does not need much of a excuse, just another predator a$$hole whose own parents were more concerned about other things than raising a proper member of society.

[Black Jack II]

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1174904749/Thug_Attacks_a_77_Year_Old_Korean_War_Veteran

Here is another one.

[Oso]

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/03/29/dnt.ca.naked.intruder.kcal

[Oso]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/28/elderly.mugging.ap/index.html

[rogue]

"I am so sorry for what happened," Rhodes said as he was led out of a police station, the New York Post reported Saturday.

Yeah, sorry they caught him.

[SifuAbel]

Do you guys have a gray fetish, or something? Videos and stories of 80+ers having awareness failures is the height of redundancy.

Find us video of people below 55 to make your points from now on.

The 82 year old 1944 Miss America story is an exception to the rule, not the constancy. She was smart enough to stay in her truck and fire her gun. Outside her truck, no gun would have saved her.

As per the old lady in the hall way,
I mean really, what 101 year old is going to have ANY chance. She isn't strong enough to stop it. She isn't fast enough to avoid it, physically or probably mentally. She's just strong enough to survive it. She isn't going to whip out blades like Zorro. You'll be lucky to even reach 101, much less be martially functional.

[Water Dragon]

I too, feel this is an innapropriate video on this board.

This lady couldn't hold a stance, do a form, squat her bodyweight, or even do a pushup. Let's not even get into things like throwing a punch or kick, going to the ground. This lady probably couldn't even get a knife or gun out honestly.

The argument for awareness in the senior community is valid, but how many elderly people visit these boards? This video belongs on the news where the people who need to this will see it. On a board like this, it is nothing more than a shock video.