View Full Version : Old Shaolin Traditions
ittokaos
02-22-2007, 06:58 PM
I have been a researcher of Shaolin for a year or so now and one thing is for sure:
everyone has their own version of shaolin traditions.
If you were to buy books and books(as I have) and search many different websites(me as well) there will still be many variations on what is shaolin and what is not. Many lineages. True shaolin gong fu. Fake shaolin gong fu.
It tends to get exhausting.
Unfortunately, for all my research there have been questions that are unanswered.(even though the answers may be real/fake/traditional/legend/etc...)
My current questions are the following:
1) Dragon and Tiger brands on the forearms. Real? Fake? Currently not practiced?
2)The dots you would normally see on the foreheads of fictional shaolin monks: where do they come from and for what reason are they put there to begin with?
3)What styles were actually studied at the temples? Five animals? Bak Mei? Dog Fist? Bagua?
4)Legend of Bak Mei as a traitor: True?
5)How many different temples have there been? Names? Locations?
6)Any info on the Order of Shaolin in Oregon? (anyone trained there/spoke with "monks")
Any and all assistance will be appreciated. Thanks!
WF:confused:
Most of the information you seek is here on this forum. You can use the search button and find it all out there. We've all been here for a really long time, and most of these have been discussed. As for answers to your questions... Please keep up your hard work in your search. As for #6 - there aren't any monks there as far as I know...from Real Shaolin that is. My suggestion is to do your research on this forum on that subject also. Come up with your own opinions, and you'll have the answers you seek!
~Jason
K.Brazier
02-22-2007, 08:07 PM
2)The dots you would normally see on the foreheads of fictional shaolin monks: where do they come from and for what reason are they put there to begin with?
They are from cylindrical cones of burning incense.
Done during meditation.
Lay folk, frineds of mine, had them done on the inner forearm.
Kevin
http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/
Sal Canzonieri
02-22-2007, 10:13 PM
I have been a researcher of Shaolin for a year or so now and one thing is for sure:
everyone has their own version of shaolin traditions.
If you were to buy books and books(as I have) and search many different websites(me as well) there will still be many variations on what is shaolin and what is not. Many lineages. True shaolin gong fu. Fake shaolin gong fu.
It tends to get exhausting.
Unfortunately, for all my research there have been questions that are unanswered.(even though the answers may be real/fake/traditional/legend/etc...)
My current questions are the following:
1) Dragon and Tiger brands on the forearms. Real? Fake? Currently not practiced?
2)The dots you would normally see on the foreheads of fictional shaolin monks: where do they come from and for what reason are they put there to begin with?
3)What styles were actually studied at the temples? Five animals? Bak Mei? Dog Fist? Bagua?
4)Legend of Bak Mei as a traitor: True?
5)How many different temples have there been? Names? Locations?
6)Any info on the Order of Shaolin in Oregon? (anyone trained there/spoke with "monks")
Any and all assistance will be appreciated. Thanks!
WF:confused:
1) Dragon / Tiger brands and the Double Dragon brands are from Southern KF gangster stuff, not part of northern Shaolin tradition.
2) I'll someone else answer that
3) What styles? Depends on the time period. Rou Quan is the oldest, pre-Tang dynasty. Staff fighting is next oldest. Tai Tzu Chang Quan is next oldest, then Luohan Quan, then after Ming and mostly in the Qing Dynasty, all the many many forms were developed.
4) Bak Mei legends are fake.
5) One only Shaolin temple, which was burned down many times. There have been other temples associated with Shaolin, but most temples are rivals with each other, they weren't really connected.
6) That Oregon school and their book is totally bull****.
Read my Shaolin history articles: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm
Shaolin Wookie
02-23-2007, 06:35 AM
6) That Oregon school and their book is totally bull****.
Read my Shaolin history articles: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm
Not to pick on you Sal, but this statement is just fortifies what the dude was talking about.....They're wrong, now read what I have to say.....:D
As for multiple temples, there were several, but they weren't really connected. They weren't "shaolin" per say, because they were...for lack of a better term...."undercover." At least, according to some traditions (Fujien)...and some were Taoist, some Buddhist.....so you can see why "Shaolin" might not be equally applicable. I think Shaolin really refers to Henan temple, whereas the other temples might have housed martial monks.....but not typically Shaolin Chan Buddhist monks....there's a huge, wide gamut of martial/religious specialty differences between temples. It's hard to lump them all together.
As for the Oregon school, I asked about them and their book a while back, and Gene pointed me here, to an old thread discussing them (very critical):
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32279&page=1
The post starter, Just a Guy, was involved in writing it. I think the book has some good information, but some of it is a crock of malarkey.....and the guys behind it are somewhat suspect (and a little overweight for Shaolin monks.....don't you agree? But if their kung-fu's good, who cares? I don't care if some white dudes in Oregon shave their heads, or don't--cuz they say that hints at fanatcism:rolleyes: -- and don orange robes, just like I don't care if the "imposters" in China do it either. You can buy a good one on martialartsmart.com, too, if you wish. Hell, you can play dress up like a ninja too, while you're at it.....:D Gene, can I get a free T-shirt for this plug?:D
I've been researching Shaolin for a while too. And I can tell you that you've drawn the right conclusions. Everyone has their own story. The monks at the temple right now are "tourist attractions" while on site, and while on tour, but they also do more traditional sets, and so aren't fake. And yet...most fight like the average kickboxer, so their shaolinishness is suspect, too. And, the religious aspect (just as important as the martial arts) is almost always missing.......whole Communist puppet theorem.
In order to truly embrace Shaolin, you kind of have to embrace the "true" with the "fake". I guess the whole "imposter" thing is part of shaolin tradition......or didn't you see Return to the 36 Chambers?:D :D Shaolin encompasses fake monks, wushu (yup, the martial dancing), The various shaolin-do's :D :o , "true" shaolin, and everything else. You kind of have to embrace it all.
Shaolin Wookie
02-23-2007, 06:39 AM
In the end, everyone's an imposter, more or less. Or everyone's equally true. The knowledge was dispensed and dispersed, and unless the product of PRC endorsement and organization......very varied.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32279&page=1
The post starter, Just a Guy, was involved in writing it. I think the book has some good information, but some of it is a crock of malarkey.....and the guys behind it are somewhat suspect (and a little overweight for Shaolin monks.....don't you agree? But if their kung-fu's good, who cares? I don't care if some white dudes in Oregon shave their heads, or don't--cuz they say that hints at fanatcism:rolleyes: -- and don orange robes, just like I don't care if the "imposters" in China do it either. You can buy a good one on martialartsmart.com, too, if you wish. Hell, you can play dress up like a ninja too, while you're at it.....:D Gene, can I get a free T-shirt for this plug?:D
Hey now....Yes, Oregon does have it's share of nutcases, but so does Washington, and so does California. Some of them have even moved out of here and moved onto other places to start their schools; ie. Stockton. :cool: :D!
And as for bringing back up that old thread...I was trying to be nice and impartial to it all and let this person do their OWN research. ;)
~Jason
Shaolin Wookie
02-23-2007, 10:00 AM
Hahaha......I still like that book:o , despite it all.
David Jamieson
02-24-2007, 08:52 AM
1) Dragon and Tiger brands on the forearms. Real? Fake? Currently not practiced?
this was made up for a television series and has no actuality to it, it was symbolic of the strength and determination taht was required to be shown. It is not documented that real shaolin monks did this and there is no evidence supporting it
2)The dots you would normally see on the foreheads of fictional shaolin monks: where do they come from and for what reason are they put there to begin with?
the dots are a symbol of celibacy and are a buddhist tradition not just a shaolin tradition. It is still practiced today and in some temples you will find monks with the burns and in some temples they simply paint them on
3)What styles were actually studied at the temples? Five animals? Bak Mei? Dog Fist? Bagua? during the 300 year period that was the qing dynasty, many underground rebels hid in the ubiquitos temples. the martial arts they brought with them were taken care of, intigrated into practice sand so on. the original styles were dhyana (ch'an or zen) exercises that were blended with martial practice and the side effect was fighting arts that were curiously powerful due to the infusion of meditative practice and focus. Otherwise, many styles were preserved in teh shaolin temple and then spread out from it all through 2 dynasties, namely and mostly the last two being the ming and theqing
4)Legend of Bak Mei as a traitor: True? only a legend, unknown and ultimately, not really much more important than say a superman comic is
5)How many different temples have there been? Names? Locations? there is and always has been only 1 shaolin temple and that is the one that is still there in henan. while shaolin methods may have been adopted in the diaspora during the times of rebellion, there has only been an exchange and not a growth of shaolin temples spreading out like tentacles. there are many buddhist temples and some of them adopted Ch'an and martial arts practices, this doesn't make them shaolin temples, it makes them buddhist temples that become temples that adopted zen and martial practice
6)Any info on the Order of Shaolin in Oregon? (anyone trained there/spoke with "monks") this is a made up thing, there is still one order of shaolin monks and the still live in teh henan temple, the monks in america are those that have either defected from the touring wushu performances that started in the 80's, people who refer to themselves as "shaolin" are everywhere, but because they say so, doesn't make it so. practicing shaolin methods is one thing, actually becoming a shaolin monk is something that is actually not that common and there are not that many of the "real" shaolin monks. even those who school themselves in wushu or the outside curriculum of the shaolin temple are not actually shaolin monks. There are many lay disciples and associates and there are thousands who go to study, but shaolin is first and foremost a religious buddhist temple and for the study of buddhism, martial arts is just a way to stay fit and helps with the vigorous meditative practice that is demanded by the ch'an discipline. You can pay all the homage you like to shaolin, but there really aren't many bonafide shaolin monks at all in the world now. there are revivalists, but even they are not the same thing as the original intent. nowadays, shaolin has become a mere tool of marketing to masses of people who want to emulate an ideal. It is difficult to say if the actual shaolin order will ever exist as it once did.
please note that this is my understanding of the way of things after many years of also being interested in the topic. there are views that would contradict my own, and they are equally as valid. :)
Shaolin Wookie
02-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Actually DJ, that was pretty much on spot.
ittokaos
02-24-2007, 03:24 PM
Allow me to take this time to thank all of you who had answers to my questions.
They were as I had expected for some and others were entirely different than what I expected.
I went ahead and(pretty much) read all the info on the link you guys put up.
I actually picked up the Shaolin Grandmaster's Text and it was a pretty valuable read. I only paid around $25 for it on amazon. Anyway I found it to be a bit more of a valuable resource as other books I have read on the subject.
After reading the former thread on the subject I found it pretty messed up that there were so many that were upset because of what they thought the book was about without having read it. Kinda like the Christian's feedback on the DaVinci Code. But I am getting off topic.
Anyway, back on topic, I still had a few questions. Or perhaps elaborations on certain responses to my ?s.
1) the brands: does anyone know where I could find an image of them other than the ones on KungFu
2)thanks for the dot info!
3)Thanks for the info on styles....I guess everystyle that was pretty good was at one time studied/taught at the temple....Right?/Wrong?
4)I figured as much
5)Undercover shaolin? Which temples/locations/styles practiced?
6)Anyone actually meet/train/learn with these guys or is it pure speculation that they are crap at this point?
Once again thanks for the info and I look forward to hearing back.
WF
Just for info:
I have read it and took it back the next day and got my $$$ back...
And, my opinion still stands as I said on the book.
Have a great day and enjoy your studies.
Gong Hay Fat Choy!!!
~Jason
Sal Canzonieri
02-24-2007, 05:56 PM
From what I had heard, the Oregon people had a different name for their school way back when and all their students left and they were sued for fraud by the students.
I think that was mentioned in that previous thread about that book by someone.
i'll try to explain some things in a little more detail. hopefully this helps:
1) the tiger and dragon are old buddhist symbols in china representing wisdom and compassion. (prajna-karuna) the legend is known in the west from the kungfu series tv show, but as i have learned from a monk currently ordained in southern shaolin temple, it was actually practiced but has been inactive for about 360 years. also it is partially legend in that it was not practiced at songshan shaolin temple but at the southern temple in fujian province. which is standing again in fuqing county.
2) the dots are burned from the incense cones and is practiced in all traditions of chinese buddhism for monastics. although it is inactive at shaolin. there is always a set of three. sometimes more like six, nine, or more. but always in threes. the three represent the triple refuge a buddhist takes when being ordained. namely refuge in the buddha, dharma (his teaching), and sangha (community of monastics)
3) many styles were practiced at shaolin. shaolin is an umbrella term for styles that developed there and became known as shaolin wugong (martial arts). the temple is like a university for martial arts. to know the styles look for the name "songshan shaolin". although the styles are different characteristically they all make up shaolin wugong. so they are not actually seperate. just keep "songshan" and "wugong" in mind. other styles are usually from chinese martial arts outside of shaolin which have nothing to do with buddhist wugong.
4) dont know about bak mei.
5) how many shaolin temples? only the one at songshan and the southern one in fujian province. other temples in henan practice the shaolin tradition such as fawang temple (dharma king- one of the names for buddha), fengxue temple (wind hole), baima temple (white horse- the first temple in china), kongxiang temple (empty appearance). most of these temples are in surrounding areas such as near luoyang city, dengfeng city, etc. in henan province. there have been other temples or training centers that offer shaolin studies but they are not officially shaolin sites. in fact, many have run into troubles for using the name.
6) i had a brief discussion with one of the authors of the book in oregon. but basically, anyone associated with shaolin knows this book to be filled with fantasy. many things are made up such as wearing different colored pants or even shoes or not associated with a different animal style at a certain rank. but the worse part is that no affiliation or lineage is provided and in the back of the book there is a picture of a white guy with an afro doing a jump kick with his arm cleverly covering his entire face so you cant see him. this is their "shaolin monk". they said they decided not to publish their lineage or anything else because they want people to focus on the content of the book. but obviously lineage is what validates your claims. they simply couldnt provide it. and that content is only found in their book coming from their masters who they refuse to tell about....
many people try to capitalize on the shaolin name or tradition. the best thing is to check their association and lineage whether it comes from the temple in china or not. many use the name without consulting the temple.
i hope this helps explain some details of shaolin. thank you for your effort. :)
ittokaos
02-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Thank you all for clearifying some of my questions...
Unfortunatly(or fortunately..depends on your pov) I have several more ?s.
1)I see in various images of shaolin monks wearing various robes in many styles and colors. Is there any significance to these robes or is it a matter of preference?
2)What styles are currently being practiced at the temple? Are they traditional temple styles or is it like northern shaolin? The prev style ? was not fully answered. What I meant to ask is what styles (long fist,southern mantis, bak mei, wing chun, northern mantis, five animals, lohan, eagle claw, dog fist, taichiquan,hsing yi, baguazhang,liuhebafa,etc...)were actually taught/practiced at the temples? How long ago did they stop practicing these styles(please forgive me for not being clearer earlier.)
3)I understand that at the time of graduation/masterhood the monks are to leave the temple for 3yrs. Is that info correct and if so what would qualify as a test/diploma for grad? Brands? Dashanmen? Written exam? certificate?
4)How long would monks have to live at the temple untill they are eligable for grad? Is it relative? Is it a set period of time?
Once again allow me to thank any and all individuals who saw fit to aid me with these questions.
Thank you for your time
WF
1) the robes of shaolin monks are based on the rules for monastic wear set up by the buddha. usually they were made with cast-away cloth, or sometimes from a corpse. nowadays monastics dont need to do that and it would be rather strange, honestly. rather the laity often supply monastics with new sets of robes. the colors are usually autumn colors such as orange, red, yellow, and brown. the color represents the turning of the leaves in autumn just before they fell. which is a symbol of detachment or renunciation. nowadays though, especially in shaolin you'll see all types of robes with fancy material and color. this is a modern thing. some robes are even made with only one sleeve. originally, in india when a pupil would be in the presence of a master they would remove their sleeve to uncover their right shoulder which was a sign of respect. most buddhist sutras start with someone approaching the buddha, removing their sleeve to uncover their right shoulder, kneeling on one knee and joining their palms- which was the formal way to make requests or ask questions to the buddha.
2) most styles of china are based on aspects from shaolin or even have history there. but most were not actually practiced or taught at the temple but developed elsewhere, sometimes based off of shaolin arts. such as "bak siu lam" in cantonese which means northern shaolin. this style was created in the south, hence the cantonese title. but was based on what the creator had learned from the temple in the north, hence the honorary title of northern shaolin. however, there is no real evidence of it having been practiced or taught in the temple, though it is certainly related. similar events are the case for styles such as wingchun and hungga. styles such as baguazhang are daoist, having nothing to do with shaolin buddhist arts. the first style created in shaolin was rouquan which was an internal style much older than taijiquan. but later, an ex-general from henan, chen wangting created the first taijiquan style named after his family, chen style, from chen village (chenjiagou) in henan province. since it was very near shaolin at one time they had a crossing and shaolin has adopted chen style taijiquan, which is similar to many other styles in history. but at shaolin the taijiquan practiced there is following the chan philosophy, so it is known as chan style rather than chen. it is slightly different yet obviously from chen style taijiquan which was created and developed outside of shaolin in a non-buddhist foundation.
3) i'm not sure of any graduation or mastery. but it is very common for masters to send their disciples to travel to other temples to learn more about buddhism. even today. one of my masters has been ordained and lived in three different temples in henan and is currently outside of henan following his masters wish for him to travel more to learn about buddhism. there is no requirement for them to be sent or allowed to go. they just follow their master. yet in some temples it is common for a test to be passed in order for the monastics to open another temple or center elsewhere, for obvious reasons. but for travel and learning, there is no requirement.
4) again, not sure about any specific "graduation". but each person is different and so each person is taught differently and naturally they will progress differently as well. so time for anything is always relative. imagine a requirement of only three years but you have a slow learner. would three years be enough to pass him although he has not grasped the teachings?
hope this helps! :)
ittokaos
02-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the info!
LSF. As always you are a great help, if you have an email address where I could ask you personally that would be great.
Anyway, what is rouquan? I understand that it was the first shaolin style but what does it look like? Is it like taiji? Also, in regards to your input on the brands, why would they receive the brands? Graduation diploma? Just cause it looks cool?
On the subject of robes. What does blue represent?Iv'e seen many monks with multi layered robes(probably due to the cold weather)but they aren't wearing the warm colors they wear blue and white. Is it a modern thing? What about the long robes that you would see a master wear? Is it a master thing or is it a ceremonial robe that all monks can wear? The Sash/wrap(the one around the waist and the one around the chest): is it significant of something or is it meaningless?
As always any and all help is apprecated. I know i may be a bit of a pest with all these questions and I thank everyone for their time and patience in dealing with me.
Thanks
WF
GeneChing
02-26-2007, 06:38 PM
Here are the authentic Shaolin dragon & tiger forearm brands. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/95w-068ry.html) I'll address the other questions later, maybe, if someone else doesn't get to them first.
Shaolin Wookie
02-26-2007, 10:01 PM
We interrupt that short commercial break to bring you your regularly scheduled bickering......:D
Thanks for the info!
LSF. As always you are a great help, if you have an email address where I could ask you personally that would be great.
LFJ.... i'll pm it to you so bots dont capture it. :)
1) rouquan is an internal style done slow to medium pace with some explosiveness. its attributed to huike, the second chinese chan patriarch. better than trying to explain, i can show you a video i came across. this is a group of students from shaolin temple overseas. it is mistitled yijinjing which is actually a stationary qigong form. but it is really shaolin rouquan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pgDp--rohkk
2) about the brands. i only know the history and significance of the symbol. i was just told about its history at the southern shaolin temple in fujian province and that it has been inactive for at least 360 years. this was information from a monk currently belonging to that temple. the reasons could be many though. perhaps to show they were one of the few who were able to exit the temple. many monk impersonators could make all sorts of claims. but if they didnt have the brands one would quickly know they werent from the temple. similar to the incense burns on the head when taking vows. it helps distinguish the true monastics from the laity.
3) in regards to different color robes. blue represents universal compassion. usually you'll hear of disciples wearing blue while orange was reserved for the ordained. white robes are common in thailand for a period of time before one becomes a monk. it is a period of purity before entering the sangha. nowadays people will wear any color because they are made for fashion.
the length of the robes dont represent anything specific. but there is a robe that buttons in the front rather than crossing over. this is monastic wear that would be used when entering the town or doing other business outside the temple. it can also be considered a monk's work clothes. another common one you may see is the long black robes with very wide sleeves. this is called haiqing and is the practice robe for the laity. all layman are allowed to wear this for practice and ceremonies. traditionally all the monastic robes are to be worn exclusively by the ordained. the laity may not wear them. only the black haiqing. nowadays in shaolin students are always wearing the monastic robes for some reason. but in buddhist tradition, all other sects observe this rule and reserve the robes to the ordained only. the buddha made the rule that the one thing a monk is not allowed to give out is his robe and alms bowl.
the red piece over the robes that the abbot usually wears is called a kesa and is worn by high ranking or elder monks in the sangha. others can wear one that is brown or black in color, but it is only for those who have taken the precepts. if one has only taken refuge and not the precepts they should only wear the robe and not this outer piece. but generally that is for the laity because all monks must take the precepts as well as a number of other vows in order to be ordained. so they can wear it. the red one however, is reserved for high level monks and is considered offensive to the chinese sangha if one were to wear it not being an elder or in high level.
the sash keeps your pants up, as far as i know. in other traditions there is a belt made specifically for monastics. but it is worn on the under layer and not seen.
i hope that covers your questions.
on second look that video is a bit different than the way i learned it. the middle is different. it misses some spots and adds new ones i havent seen. but still, many pines trees in the forest. no two are exactly alike but they are still pine trees. thats rouquan. :)
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