Chasing techniques of pok kik

[swingfist]

Hi
I've been training for over fifteen years in a system that uses pok kik as it's core
training.
I can't find anything that resembles the continuous advancing side stance, it's movement is similar to choy lee fut as it was developed by a CLF master and was around Malaysia in the 60's or 70's, especially Ipoh where my sifu is from.
The style of pok kik has no forms just techniques specializing in kup choi, pow choi.
The interesting difference is yum, yueng, fon and fan choi chasing are done with the straight fist and with the thumb on top, not swinging and any number of combinations can be done when you master the side stance or double shifting stance.
It was used alot in full contact and i still use it when sparring.
Has anybody got any films of this as i'm thinking of doing something because i think it should be shown, or has anybody seen any as my sifu is the only person in U.K doing this

Thanks

[lkfmdc]

do you realize that "pok kik" / pak yihk is just "fighting" or "full contact fighting" in Cantonese? :confused:

[shinmyouken]

hi friend,

i guess we are cousins in this art though i don't practice it anymore

yum, yeung, fong, fan
pin, pao, kup
gwa, chou, sau

leung yee ma, bin fa mo ku'ng

these are the first 3 sequence of fists taught by my teacher with the associated footwork of leung yee ma.

i wrote a bit about pok kik or pok khek or bojiquan under memories of bojiquan here (http://taijistagmont.wordpress.com/) - click on Others - Bojiquan. You can find a picture of the founder of Pok Kik - Grandmaster Nip Chee Fei and my teacher Master Leong here also.

by side advancing i suppose you are referring to either the zigzag pattern of leung yee ma or bil po.

good to see pok kik alive and well somewhere else.

[swingfist]

It is so nice to hear from somebody else who has trained in this, why did you stop
training in these little known techniques.
I feel this style extremely important for combat that it should be shown more.
My sifu comes from Ipoh in Malaysia and trained under master pan poh ngean who
has been the full contact coach for years.
I hope to put something on DVD in the near future, as i love everything about the
side stance but takes alot of patience and hard training to get right.
I'd love to hear more of your experience and hope more people come forward and show it.

Take care

Swingfist

[Ben Gash]

Surely it's just the CLF darting step?

[swingfist]

The side stance or leung yee ma which means double shifting stance, it was
developed by the choy lee fut master nip chee fei.
Outside Malaysia I've not seen it done by any CLF people and I've been training
about 20 years.
Could you tell me more about the darting steps.
When I've seen CLF done with a side stance the main techniques are circular
i.e pow and kup choi, also with pow choi the fist is held in the normal way with
the thumb wrapped over and comes up with the inner knuckles facing you
horizontally whereas when we do pow choi and all the other side stance normal
punches the thumb is on top so you don't have to change positions when chasing
and pow comes up with a vertical fist.


And to ikfmdc pok kik is a stand alone style developed from CLF for full contact
fighting.

[Infrazael]

In my old school I was taught shifting via standing in a more "square" . . . you still have 1 feet forward but it's more square on towards your opponents, and that has been my preferred stance. I also like it to be able to check kicks as such. I like to use it to set up sau, pau, chop, etc . . . . some of our combinations are a mixture of setting up via different panther fists, then following with gwa-sau, gwa-pau, etc, also throwing in jabs, crosses, and various hooks and uppercuts (myself have basic boxing knowledge).

We also did quite a bit of side-to-side movement, and my Sifu always emphasizes on chasing the opponent.

I trained under Mak Hin Fai - Lee Koon Hung lineage.

Any way you can videotape what you're talking about and posting it onto Youtube? I would greatly appreciate it as I'm not too sure what your talking about.

[Ben Gash]

I'm assuming that by side stance you mean a side on horse stance, punching with the lead hand. In which case by far the most common technique in Choy Li Fut from this stance is Tsop Chui (stabbing fist).
Darting step is a method of darting frowards into a side on horse stance, using the front heel and hip to boost forwards. It's used extensively in Bak Sing CLF to chase people in square horse, and can be seen in the forms of every Hung Sing line.

[Infrazael]

I'm assuming that by side stance you mean a side on horse stance, punching with the lead hand. In which case by far the most common technique in Choy Li Fut from this stance is Tsop Chui (stabbing fist).
Darting step is a method of darting frowards into a side on horse stance, using the front heel and hip to boost forwards. It's used extensively in Bak Sing CLF to chase people in square horse, and can be seen in the forms of every Hung Sing line.

Side stance - yep - side horse. Chop Choy stance. :D

I think I know what your "darting step" is. I'm not the best guy with technique names, but I'm sure it's all over the combinations I've been taught and such.

[shinmyouken]

hi swingfist, sorry it has taken a while for me to reply. guess fate is funny as i keep coming back to taiji no matter how far i strayed from it. anyway, pok kek is good for fighting but for long term development i guess taiji offers something that i can't find in pok kek.

i'm afraid i don't know master pan but then apart from master nip's 1st disciple who is master choo, the 3rd disciple whom i only know the nickname master nip gave him which is Heavenly Flying Rat and my own teacher who is the 2nd disciple I am ignorant of the other disciples of Master Nip.

anyway, do keep up the good work in spreading the name of pok kik. i just posted about pok kik's pole form today on my blog - i don't know if you have learned it but hope you have since its such a nice and short form.

oh, one more thing about the leung yee ma. i am not sure if Master Nip developed it himself. i was told by my senior that Master Nip learned many styles of CMA - there was a brochure that lists what these styles are he learned but i am not able to locate a copy. anyway, you know the first thing you learn yum chui with leung yee ma? i saw the exact same technique in Lama White Crane. so its a possibility that Master Nip may have taken it from there - anyway its just my guess from putting two and two together.

i agree with you on the thumb positioning on pok kek fist - it allows us to use the fist to hit whether with a gwa, kup, sau, pek, chou or yum/yeung/fong/fa'an - i don't think i have seen any other styles use it this way either.

yeah, pok kek is basically the essentials of combat which Master Nip distilled out and proven by his disciples and grand disciples to work in full contact tournament. i trust your teacher have also taught you the "taunting song" which accompanies pin, pau, kup? - i can't repeat it here since i don't want the 4 schools mentioned to come after me :-) - those days of open challenges are gone but since its part of pok kek history i thought i would bring it up to your attention

[Pok Kek Vincent]

hi, i train pok kek with a friend once a week,
he learnt off master chooo in the late 80's..

it's a style of kung fu that doesn't worry too much about forms, the main stuff we work on is mind and body..

we do a lot of fore arm condistionsing wrist smashing blocks..

lots of reflex training.. techneques simliar to wing chuns sticky hands..


and we work alot on our balance..

lots of sparing..

would love to know any more information on this style...

[swingfist]

Hi pok kek vincent,
Where are you based in the world as I'd like to know who you're master was.
i'm going to try and get something on dvd at some point and want input from
other people so i can trace the history of this, as i think it's such an interesting
style not to mention very practicle
Can you let me know if you train the leung ye ma stance ( side stance ) chasing
with all the combinations

To Ben Gash the side stance is not a horse stance it's like a bow arrow stance but to the side but is slightly higher because of the fast moving forward, it's difficult to explain, also the feet are on the same line, back foot is pointing directly to the frontand you usually feel tension in the calf if it's right.

Shinmyouken can you let me know where i can find your blog as i'd like to know more about the pole form, i did learn one but would like to see if it's the same.
I'm learning tiger crane as there is only so much to learn in pok kik, with the tiger crane style they do a tai chi form called suaung yeung pei ho not sure on the spelling, not seen this done anywhere also, but when i spar i use the pok kik
more than any other, do you find this happens to you.

[ht pies]

hi swingfist, sorry it has taken a while for me to reply. guess fate is funny as i keep coming back to taiji no matter how far i strayed from it. anyway, pok kek is good for fighting but for long term development i guess taiji offers something that i can't find in pok kek.

i'm afraid i don't know master pan but then apart from master nip's 1st disciple who is master choo, the 3rd disciple whom i only know the nickname master nip gave him which is Heavenly Flying Rat and my own teacher who is the 2nd disciple I am ignorant of the other disciples of Master Nip.

anyway, do keep up the good work in spreading the name of pok kik. i just posted about pok kik's pole form today on my blog - i don't know if you have learned it but hope you have since its such a nice and short form.

oh, one more thing about the leung yee ma. i am not sure if Master Nip developed it himself. i was told by my senior that Master Nip learned many styles of CMA - there was a brochure that lists what these styles are he learned but i am not able to locate a copy. anyway, you know the first thing you learn yum chui with leung yee ma? i saw the exact same technique in Lama White Crane. so its a possibility that Master Nip may have taken it from there - anyway its just my guess from putting two and two together.

i agree with you on the thumb positioning on pok kek fist - it allows us to use the fist to hit whether with a gwa, kup, sau, pek, chou or yum/yeung/fong/fa'an - i don't think i have seen any other styles use it this way either.

yeah, pok kek is basically the essentials of combat which Master Nip distilled out and proven by his disciples and grand disciples to work in full contact tournament. i trust your teacher have also taught you the "taunting song" which accompanies pin, pau, kup? - i can't repeat it here since i don't want the 4 schools mentioned to come after me :-) - those days of open challenges are gone but since its part of pok kek history i thought i would bring it up to your attention

hi syk
what 4 schools?? and what's taunting song??
i have known & followed the ncf school for quite a while and also know his student who has inherited a couple of boxes(the rest were burnt by mrs nip)of his writings & ideas after he passed away in the early 90's.
I believe his top pk student would be the late 'bodyguard" tong yee ming.
with regard to pk, no one mention about pun lun chup, pun lun kup, pun lun sau etc and last but not least the mooi farr chup...
cheers

[nospam]

..sounds like an offshoot of Bak Sing CLF, especially when you consider Nip Chee Fei was a disciple of Tam Sam. Brutal, side fighting, offense oriented, a training emphasis on hard core fighting..a lot of the principles and methods taught by Tam Sam. Nip Chee Fei blended in Tai Chi Kuen and I would imagine some Maylasian flavor as well to 'create' the style that is called: poc khek.

It would be interesting to see footage of this style to compare.



nospam
:cool:

[mok]

From what you guys saying the leung yee ma stance bieng like bow & arrow but sideways, sounds like it's close to or similar to a lot of other southern lin wan kuen stepping.

We have a 7-strike lin wan sequence in Hung Ga's FHSYK for example that steps just like that, and I've seen it often in Lama-influenced arts, often with their "half-moon" stepping where they slide the stance forwards with the backleg at the same time.

As for tucking thumb on the outside of the hand rather than cupping it, that's pretty standard too, particularly when throwing sao choy's or charp choy. IMO Anyone who's hit a heavy bag or a block downwards on their thumb stuck under their fist should know better than to keep it there for those strikes.

It's a trivial matter and not a style-thing to switch the thumb around based on what your type or target is, it's really not some "signature" thing. But I also know of some other styles like a local Jow Ga school that makes it a point to always tuck the thumb on the side, even on straight jabs or crosses.

[ht pies]

pk is really simplified clf with a bit of tai chi flavour. there is still a ncf clf/tc school in ipoh. you should be able to get some vidoe tapes of contestants using pk in tournaments from those guys. also if you know them well, perhaps a video tape of ncf performing his 3 sets of tc forms and weapons, ncf's tc sword form is very good and is one the best that i have come across so far. good luck sf !

[cerebus]

Interesting topic. The last time I remember reading about "Pok Kek" was in old 70s and 80s issues of Inside Kung Fu reporting on the full-contact tourneys held in Malaysia. I'd be interested in seeing and learning more about this....

[Clear Bamboo]

May I offer some memories of Master Nip and his disciples? Two of Nip's top disciples had very similar names Wang Chin Chuan and Huang Chin Chuan. Wang was small of body and Huang was a big man. So to distinguish between the two, Wang was nicknamed "Little mouse" (Lo Shih Chai in Cantonese, which was the main Chinese dialect spoken in Ipoh) When Wang was good enough, he challenged and defeated a teacher of another school and established himself as a teacher.

When news of this reached Master Nip, he remarked, "Wah! So this little mouse is now flying in the sky?" (The mouse is a lowly animal but the dragon is majestic and flies in the sky, so you can see the reference.) So the name Fei Theen Loh Shih (Mouse that flies in the sky) was born. Wang was referred to by that name from then on in the whole town and he took pride in it.

Master Nip also had a lion dance troupe and the younger disciples did acrobatics and pyramids, standing in 4 tiers with the lightest on top. His wife, herself a martial artist, was sometimes quite dismissive of "such foolishness!". In any case, the students who trained with the bundles of rattan sticks will surely not forget that in a hurry.

When Master Nip was 60, his dialectic clan, a branch of Cantonese, gave him a birthday dinner. He performed a version of the Yang Tai-Chi short set except that he did the Lotus Leg extremely slow to the astonishment of all there. He had quite a sizable waist then, which made it even more remarkable.

[Clear Bamboo]

Yes, there were a few tourneys in those days. The "internal" ones were exciting. However, in the national full contact competitions open to all martial arts schools, the Poh Khek entrants did not fare so well. If my memory serves me, while they were full contact, hitting the side and back of the head was not allowed, which seriously limited the swinging blows. In fact, in one tournament in the finals, one opponent (Tae Kwan Do school) was knocked out but the one who delivered the blow was disqualified. You can imagine the uproar when the one unconscious was declared the winner. Ha! Ha!

[Clear Bamboo]

In the post on "Chasing techniques of pok Kik", yes the strikes taught by Master Nip were straight punches. The 4 strikes in order were, with clenched fists, palm up, palm down, thumb up and thumb down.

[chasincharpchui]

clearbamboo

are you from the Pik Lik Chi Fei Tai Kik School in Ipoh?

[Clear Bamboo]

Chasincharpchui.

Long time ago. Trained with Master Nip and a few of his senior disciples. Ipoh and Kampar. No more Pok Khek. Retired and have no school. Only teach a few students Tai-Chi privately now. I like name of charp chui, which is really what Pok Khik is about as it has no set routines. Do you remember bundles of rattan?
I came across this forum while surfing the net and thought I would help fill in a few missing pieces.

[TenTigers]

If I recall correctly, Pok Khek also had an emphasis on iron body training...?

[chasincharpchui]

Chasincharpchui.

Long time ago. Trained with Master Nip and a few of his senior disciples. Ipoh and Kampar. No more Pok Khek. Retired and have no school. Only teach a few students Tai-Chi privately now. I like name of charp chui, which is really what Pok Khik is about as it has no set routines. Do you remember bundles of rattan?
I came across this forum while surfing the net and thought I would help fill in a few missing pieces.

you might have the wrong person, i don't know anything to do with bundles rattan. lol

i myself am a student of buk sing.
And i'm very interested in the history of Nip Chee Fei Sifu, he would be my sisookjo. how he came to Malaysia, how he founded pok khik, and what he changed from the original teachins of his sifu, my sijo Tarm Sarm.

[Clear Bamboo]

Chasincharpchui.

My respects.
I am ignorant of Master Nip's early days. However, Ipoh was the centre of tin mining in those days. It was after World War 2 and the Communists turned to terrorism. In response. the government of the day fortified the smaller villages in the countryside. Movement was restricted.

Not so in Ipoh. It was the state capitol and a thriving trading centre. So young people flocked there for employment, education, fun and to make their fortunes. So it was also natural that triad gangs thrived there too. It is not like that now, but fighting between rival gangs were frequent then and killings did happen.

It was the right climate for the growth of kung fu schools as it was mainly a Chinese town. Judo, karate and other Japanese or Korean arts did not start until the late 1950's. Nip's earlier students were a rather rough bunch and many came to learn the tools of their trade (sic).

You will understand that it was a time when a student does not question too much. If the Master scolds, one is happy that he has been noticed. When one does not have a stable stance, the teacher will tell him that as he is lying flat on his back dazed looking up at the teacher. So understandably, I did not seek a lot of direct clarification. Ha! Ha!

However, we often sit at night over bowls of Sar Hor Fun (Famous Ipoh rice noodle soup), discussing the moves and trying not to get into fisticuffs over the applications. To be young was to need further education. Sigh!

We all agreed it came from other hard fighting arts, probably long fist because of the importance of Pow Chui or cannonball fist. At the same time, because he also taught Tai Chi (which while clearly Yang style had quite a few differences), he would have adopted this.

To be caught having a weapon was a hanging offence so the favourites with the triads were concealed weapons. I believe this had a lot to do with the evolution of the art. Rather nasty beginnings, which was why in later years, Master Nip preferred to work with younger pupils from secondary schools to teach better morals.

[Clear Bamboo]

If I recall correctly, Pok Khek also had an emphasis on iron body training...?

Sparring was full contact with no protective gear. Once one was finished with the concrete dumbbells and rattan bundles, every session was sparring. I think Iron Shirt was a natural result rather than a specific training. Ha! Ha! Iron Fist and Iron Wrist may be a better description.

Every morning, when I get up from bed, I remember the sparring. Ha! Ha!

[Brule]

That's how it should be. Iron shirt / Palm / etc.... should be a natural result of the training that is done. Sometimes it is taken apart from the training and focused on specifically, which is not bad by the way, but should be incorporated into the regular routine.

Clear bamboo,

Nice to hear some of the stories of old time training with the old school masters.

Peace