Flying Diagonally vs Wild Horse Parts Mane

[RandyBrown]

Would anyone like to share their thoughts on the differences in application for these moves? They are almost identical in end game but clearly different due to the choice of nomenclature, much like 'Strum the Pipa' and 'Raise Hands Upward'.

'Wild Horse Parts Mane' for us can have multiple applications. To name a few - block opposite arm, move to the outside, slip arm across chest and use chest to break the elbow. Another instance would be blocking the arm while closing the gap and leading to a leg trap/throw.

'Flying Diagonally' - in the long form this has a strange setup and not one that clearly shows it's intended use. I have seen the layout (written order of postures) of a Yang Fighting set and there it was used after a forward shoulder stroke attack. I don't have a version of the Yang Fighting Set so I'm basing my assumptions off the long form and basic fighting principles.

They both contain 'Split' and 'Pluck' energy so the use must be similar...so why the difference?

Any input is welcome, but I'm particularly interested in comments from those studying Michuan, or pre-Yang Chen Fu Yang Style. If unwilling to discuss openly you can PM me. If you're not interested in sharing this knowledge, perhaps you'd at least provide the sequence of postures leading/following this move in things you've studied other than YCF or Communist Taijiquan?

Thanks in advance. I look forward to responses.

Randy Brown

[ftgjr]

I'm not familiar with the style you mentioned but may be able to contribute some insight to your question.

Before studying Tai Chi, I trained in Aikido for a couple of years. When I started learning my Tai Chi form, I noticed that Diagonal flying was very similar to a technique called Heaven and Earth although not exactly the same.

In Aikido, the heaven and earth deals with a double wrist grab. As the opponent grabs, you step 45 degrees forward and split your hands (forward most hand down and the other up) Off-balancing and locking up your opponent simultaneously and then step through. You could also do the same move when pivoting from a staight on attack. I also found this technique to work without grabs. When I studied Wing Chun, I often used this technique to off-balance and trap opponents when we Chi Soa'd.

In Tai Chi, it is more of an absorb and project where you use a circular whipping motion to draw your opponent close to you. As you step back into your opponent, you spread your arms across and turn to push.

That's my best explaination of what it is, maybe someone else has a better one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXJB6-ONZaA

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Diagonal Flying is reactionary, short and abrupt.. the normal follow-up in Yang is Play Pipa which has limited connection to Diagonal Flying..

Parting the Wild Horses Mane, is progressively unfolding and has very fluid applications that vary with the opponent's various responses.. a bit like Single Whip..

An obvious difference is that Parting includes a shoulder bump (Kao).. and a more expanded waist involvement..

Be well...

[qiphlow]

Greetings..

Diagonal Flying is reactionary, short and abrupt.. the normal follow-up in Yang is Play Pipa which has limited connection to Diagonal Flying..

Parting the Wild Horses Mane, is progressively unfolding and has very fluid applications that vary with the opponent's various responses.. a bit like Single Whip..

An obvious difference is that Parting includes a shoulder bump (Kao).. and a more expanded waist involvement..

Be well...

thanks, bob

[Bugeisha]

I'm not familiar with the style you mentioned but may be able to contribute some insight to your question.

Before studying Tai Chi, I trained in Aikido for a couple of years. When I started learning my Tai Chi form, I noticed that Diagonal flying was very similar to a technique called Heaven and Earth although not exactly the same.

In Aikido, the heaven and earth deals with a double wrist grab. As the opponent grabs, you step 45 degrees forward and split your hands (forward most hand down and the other up) Off-balancing and locking up your opponent simultaneously and then step through. You could also do the same move when pivoting from a staight on attack. I also found this technique to work without grabs. When I studied Wing Chun, I often used this technique to off-balance and trap opponents when we Chi Soa'd.

In Tai Chi, it is more of an absorb and project where you use a circular whipping motion to draw your opponent close to you. As you step back into your opponent, you spread your arms across and turn to push.

That's my best explaination of what it is, maybe someone else has a better one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXJB6-ONZaA


As far as aikido waza goes, slant/diagonal flying looks more like kokyu ho to me.

http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_kokyu-ho.gif

Tenshin nage (heaven and earth throw) would be more like brush knee, although the hands and footwork are reversed.

[omarthefish]

RandyBrown,

About 6 months ago or so I had the same question. I actually reccoment chekcing out www.shenmendao.com to get a more in depth response.

TaiChiBob,

Similare conclusions to what I came up with except I would add the credo that ALL movements should really contain ALL 8 JIN and no movement should be reduced to kao or lie specifically....although I can't deny that I see a much clearer kao jin in diagonal flying and a much clearer lie jin in wild horse.

ftgjr,

nice clip!

that is a very standard application of Wild Horse. Nice to see it in an Aikido context. I have hear my Shifu and my most Senior Shixiong discussing how wonderfully they agree with the basic concepts of Aikido and watched them break down Aikido techniques with Taijiquan terminology and theory. Aikido may have a bad rep for application but the basic principles are absolutely inline with Taijiquan as I am learning it.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI8o_LQt8vo&mode=related&search=

:)

[Three Harmonies]

I see that app all the time where the player puts his arm under his opponents arm to take him over backwards. The problem is the person grabs your arm, and turns sharply away, you end up with a broken arm. Terrible idea. Liked some of the other ones though. Thanks SPJ.
Jake

[Plymouth Rocks]

Yeppers. Why not drop an elbow instead?

[RandyBrown]

Thanks for the great responses by all. Sorry for the delay in response but I've been rather busy.

Omar - that link leads to a down website, any ideas?


Appreciate the thoughts.

Best Regards.

[omarthefish]

lol.

I spelled it in Mandarin. It should be ShenmenTao.com.

http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/

The forum is not very active but there's a thread or two relavent to your question and I think the forum owner has some really good info.

[cjurakpt]

Intresting that this should come up - I asked my teacher about it years ago, because they just seemed too similar...

My understanding (yes, here I go again) of the name Wild Horse Parts Mane (Ye Ma Fan Jung) is not that it is you who are parting a horses mane yourself (as told to me by one Chinese teacher years ago, along with a rather funny pantomime of what it might look like to comb a horses mane), but rather refers to the chaotic manner in which a horse's mane flies around in different directions when the horse is running about in the wild - if you've ever seen wild horses doing their twisting, zig-zagging movements, throwing their heads around this way and that, it's easy to understand; the movement, done to the diagonals (and in the "advanced" version of our form, it is done with a series of zig-zaging cross steps) with the shoulders and head leaning in obliquely, seeks to emulate this chaotic, untamed nature, both to use in fighting, but also as part of the alchemical function of the form...at least this is how it has been communicated to me;

It is also my understanding that the reason for the similarity between the two moves is that Diagonal Flying is in fact a truncated version of WHPM and that it was inserted into the form by YLC as a means of simplifying the segue between Cloud Hands and Raising Up the Arms after he deleted the original moves in between the two; the reason for the supposed deletions? 1) he wanted to keep something hidden; 2) one of the moves in question was either too hard or too unseemly for the Mandarin nobility he was teaching to do (similar to many of the other things he changed / deleted for the same reason - e.g.: Arhat Pounding, the jumping kicks / low spinning sweeps, using a closed fist); if this seems implauseable, consider that one poster describes the entry into DF as a "strange set-up" and another mentioned that the move following has "limited connection" to it: these intuitive comments seem to support the suggestion that YLC's cutting-and-pasting didn't preserve the uninterrupted flow of the original melody, so to speak...

anyway, that's my version of it, for better or worse...