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View Full Version : Herbalists - Identify this herbal formula!!



Royal Dragon
03-02-2007, 08:20 PM
1. Frankincense
2. Myrr
3. Pseudoginseng
4. Carthamus
5. Coptis
6. Eucommiae
7. Dipsaci Aspri
8. Drynaria
9. Achyranthis
10. Ginger root

There are no amounts given, or weight measurements, just the list of herbs. The notes say it is for training, but not specifically what kind of training, or if it is a liniment, or to be taken internally.

Anyone got any ideas what this formula does?

SanHeChuan
03-02-2007, 09:19 PM
It summons the DEMON!:eek:

NJM
03-02-2007, 09:29 PM
It sounds like some sort of resperatory purgative formula, which would remove stagnation in the lungs or something of that sort. It may also promote general qi circulation into the extremities.

David Jamieson
03-02-2007, 10:22 PM
This is likely a jow formula

1. Frankincense - typical ingredient to dit da jow acts as a binder more than anything.
2. Myrr - again, a typical ingredient with similar use as the Frankincense
3. Pseudoginseng - raises heat
4. Carthamus - not really much of anything, this is safflower oil I would guess a vehicle for the herbs as an alternative to alcohol.
5. Coptis - said to relieve inflammation, but of the stomach
6. Eucommiae - used for tonification of Yang energy and as an analgesic
7. Dipsaci Aspri - I think you mean "Dipsaci Aspirin" which thins the blood and breaks up blood stasis
8. Drynaria - key in tcm to healing damaged bone and ligaments
9. Achyranthis - supposed to strengthen tendon and bones
10. Ginger root - raises heat has other qualities.

as for weights and measures, well, I guess that would depend on what you want. Not a very useful formula unless it has weights and measures though. some of these ingredients are inert and others you would want to measure the quantities carefully.

anyway, it is very likely a dit da jow formula.

MonkeyKingUSA
03-02-2007, 10:53 PM
Royal Dragon,
Carthamus, aka Safflower (Mandarin Hong Hua which means, "red flower") activates the blood, disperses blood coagulations and relieves pain. It effects the heart and liver meridians. I doubt DJ's theory that the oil is used as a substitute for alcohol. Normally, the leaves of the plant are used in DDJ formulas.
Coptis (Huang Lian) is a rhizome (underground root) and can be used to heal the skin.
Richard A. Tolson

David Jamieson
03-02-2007, 10:57 PM
not saying it's a substitute for alcohol. saying that it is a vehicle for the jow itself as opposed to alcohol.

this formula looks like it would have more of a plaster consistency than a liniment for instance because of the safflower and the frankincense and myrrh which are highly resinous.

definitely would be goopy. :)

Samurai Jack
03-03-2007, 12:02 AM
Sorta. The Myrrh reduces inflammation on it's own. Western medicine concurs. One of my Jow formulas use all of these ingredients and a few more. The Frankincense and myrrh dissolve into the alcohol quite seamlessly over time. It isn't oily or thick.

If you used a gallon of vodka to two ounces of everything you listed, plus two ounces of bitter orange peel and astragalus root, you'd make my basic bruise liniment. You can also add menthol crystals if you insist on that "patent medicine" feel; I don't like it, so I don't.

I'd use Korean Ginseng though instead of the pseudo, and just use as much as you can afford (it can be pretty expensive). Leave everything for three months before using. After a year, strain everything but the ginseng roots which can be left in indefinately (it's why you can get away with less too).

Chinese herbalists aren't quite as exacting as you'd think. Normally they just throw a few handfuls of everything into a jar.

Royal Dragon
03-03-2007, 07:25 AM
I have seen pseudoginseng in formulas for injuries to be used topically because it reduces inflamation.

Here is what my materia medica sayes

"Reduces swelling and alleviates pain: The herb of choice for traumatic injury. Used for swelling and pain due to falls, fractures contusions and sprains"

Korean Ginseng is a TOTALLY different herb, and cannot be used as a substitute in any way, shape or form. Korean Ginseng is an adaptogentic tonic and has NONE of the properties of Pseudoginseng. It is more of an over all health tonic. It won't function in a jow.

By substituteing Korean Ginseng, you have removed one of the most important herbs in your jow...and replaced it with something useless for your purposes. In addition too that, you are wasteing good, and expensive Panax Ginseng, when you could be reaping the bennifits by making tea out of it and drinking it prior to practice.

David Jamieson
03-03-2007, 07:46 AM
I've found that canadian or american ginseng is preferable when drinking it as tea before or during practice. It doesn't raise as much yang and actually has cooling (yin) qualities to it.

The heavy panax ginseng is better for pre-cold season and for older dudes to increase yang energy and keep the johnson a little stiffer and the eyes a litter sharper. :)

Oso
03-03-2007, 07:49 AM
bring on the panax then....

Royal Dragon
03-03-2007, 08:15 AM
Siberian ginseng (although it's not actually ginseng) is an even hotter tonic than the Panax ginseng...but it does not seem to do as much. it's weird, for me I get more over all athletic abillity from the Panax, but the siberian is more stimulateing, to the point of causeing some dizznyness of i drink too much. It seems more like a caffiene substitue than a real Ginseng.

Siberin Ginseng seems to have me bouncing off the walls more, where as the Panax does not seem to do that, but gives more "on demand" strength, endurnace and remarkably, better flexibillty.

The Panax Ginseng (true ginseng) is good for stance work, and Long Fist forms, the Siberian gives a hyperness that is good for a lot of fast paced kicking and such. Good for TKD people.

David Jamieson
03-03-2007, 08:17 AM
I mean much older.

Like "need viagra" age. :)

dude, you're still in your thirties right? You don't need panax internally.
Start using it when you are approaching your senior years.
My training partner tells me that young chinese men don't consume it but older ones do. For the reasons I stated.

he's also told me that tere is a weird belief that if you consume to much you don't actually die but go into a state of stasis and people think you are dead. Now, me being the non superstitious type don't really buy into that, but there are qualities to ginseng that do slow the aging process and the trade off is a rigidity within the organs. not a dryness, just a stiffening and slowing. weird stuff.

Royal Dragon
03-03-2007, 09:16 AM
The American Ginseng does not do anything for me though. It's more cooling, and better after practice to help with recovery. The Panax stuff is really strong, and really improves the Kung Fu for the day.

When I was young, I would use the Panax and bell Pollen before practice, and then the American and Royal Jelly to help recover after.

I stopped this when I stopped training 100% 6 days a week, except for a short time yearslater when i injured my back. I did it again at that time to help heal.

Now i reallly don't use herbs unless i am sick. I just don't have that competitive need to out do my peers anymore, so ulltra peek performance isn't the goal of my training. That makes most herbal formulas not nessasary anymore.

Although the last girl I was with told me She hadn't been rocked for 4 hours straight like that since she was 19 (I am 39), so i guess some of that stuff is still in my system after all these years. :D

Samurai Jack
03-05-2007, 01:34 AM
Well you learn something new every day. My herbalist told me not to bother with the pseudo ginseng since it wasn't as strong. Could be he dosen't know what I'm using it for... could also be that he wanted to sell me the more expensive stuff. :D

Thanks for the tip RD.

Royal Dragon
03-05-2007, 07:41 AM
Ur Welcome!!

Most likely he did not know what you were useing it for. If you were taking it as a tonic, he is right.

herb ox
03-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Ahhh... the smell of herbs and debate in the air!

Just to add to the mix (and clarify a bit)

Frankensense and Myrrh - A potent blood invigorating pair (Mo Yao and Ru Xiang) not for binding anything at all - just breaking up stasis.

Dipsaci Asperi - Xu Duan - a Yang tonic, Xu Duan translates to "connect what is broken", referring to its near miraculous ability to heal bone and ligament injuries.

Radix Pseudoginseng - San Qi - also a potent blood invigorator, may be used internally or externally to stop bleeding and to remove stasis (like a bruise). There's no relation at all to the tonifying functions of other ginsengs - this herb is specifically used for healing and invigorating blood... don't substitute it or else you lose one of the most important Dit Da herbs in your formula.

Carthamus - Hong Hua is a flower, not an oil (although I know what you're talking about, DJ) in this formula and is also for tonifying and invigorating the blood. Usually it is paired with Tao Ren (semen persicae) to powerfully break up blood stasis... given Tao Ren's absence, I'd say this formula is to be taken internally. This is further reinforced by the presence of ginger root (sheng/gan jiang) which is used mostly in formulas to 'warm the middle' - i.e. offset the coldness of the other herbs on the stomach and further invigorate.

Seems like a good formula to me to encourage healing, strengthen bone and reduce soreness after training.... if you take it to a Chinese herbalist, he/she should be able to prescribe the dosages appropriate to your constituion.

good luck!

herb ox

cha kuen
03-14-2007, 03:58 PM
sorry, can't help you unless u type the chinese names.. pin yin.

=/

Royal Dragon
03-19-2007, 09:30 PM
What does the Coptis do in this formula?

PlumDragon
03-20-2007, 07:44 AM
Topically, Coptis clears Damp-Heat. It also has some anticoagulant (read break blood stasis) and coronary dilatory effect (read blood invigorator). it shows anti-infalmmitory effect in labs, probably due to its ability to invigorate blood and clear heat.

EDIT: Coptis is rather expensive compared to the other berberines (the common "huangs") and can be somewhat easily substituted for.

Royal Dragon
03-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Interesting. We wil have to see in 12-18 months what we have. Till then it's soaking in home made rice wine, tripple distilled in my freezer to be roughly 50% alcohal (Best guess)

Po Chi Lam
04-09-2007, 09:45 PM
I agree mainly with herb ox above that this is a jow formula and his indications are right on. To clarify on the coptis, there are several types of jows, some are cooling for acute problems and some should be warming for more chronic conditions. The coptis is there to provide a cooling energy to the formula. Honestly, this does not seem like a very targeted formula because of the mix of warming and cooling herbs especially the ginger. Even though it is common to see combinations of cooling and warming herbs in herbal formulas, this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula. I think there are better formulas on the market than this one.

Royal Dragon
04-11-2007, 07:38 AM
this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula.

Reply]
Could you expand on that thought a bit?

Becca
04-13-2007, 02:09 PM
This is likely a jow formula

4. Carthamus - not really much of anything, this is safflower oil I would guess a vehicle for the herbs as an alternative to alcohol.
5. Coptis - said to relieve inflammation, but of the stomach

... both are used in homeopathic healing for skin rashes/leishions and also blisters.

As for the rest of it: I'd bet it's external. Have you tried it in equal parts as an infusion?

Royal Dragon
04-13-2007, 02:15 PM
I have it soaking in my Rice wine as we speak.

Becca
04-13-2007, 02:37 PM
I have it soaking in my Rice wine as we speak.

Not much into jaws myself.... I was thinking it sounds like a nice hot-soak recipe and could be made with a few hours of bioling in water then thickened with aloe. Very good for battered skin on the hands and feet, I think. My herbal intrests tend to run mor along the holistic. Everything listed would make a fantastic hot soak for bum joints or rough, broken skin.

Po Chi Lam
04-13-2007, 03:58 PM
this one does not seem to focus on the stage of the injury or even have the best ingredients for a jow formula.

Reply]
Could you expand on that thought a bit?

Sure I can expand on my thoughts, assuming this is a formula for external application after an injury there are different stages of the healing process. The first stage is the acute inflammation with the typical redness, swelling, loss of function, pain, and heat. In this stage of the injury cool and cold herbs should be emphasized (i.e. da huang, zhi zi, pu gong yin) in addition to the herbs that move blood and tonify the kidney (like in the formula now). Coptis is in the formula now and is cold but should be more in a higher dosage if used alone or should be used in combination with the herbs I mentioned above. The cool and cold herbs also have to be in this formula to offset the warming properties of the blood moving and kidney tonifying herbs. The second stage is the healing phase when tonification and mild blood moving should be emphasized. For this part the formula is okay, personally I would just remove the ginger root (I don't really know why it is there in the first place. It is actually a skin irritant and can be used in cold moxabustion to blister the skin. The ginger root in this formula actually makes me think it may have been for internal use originally.) I would reduce or remove the coptis at this point.

This is just my opinion from my experience in TCM school working with a lot of orthopedic problems. Basically I am just saying one jow does not fit all. I am also lucky that I have the school's herbal dispensary to use. By the way, you don't have to soak the herbs in alcohol for a long time, I usually powder it for my patients and have them mix it with vodka type alcohol and apply like a plaster.

Royal Dragon
04-13-2007, 04:50 PM
So if I understand you correctly, you are saying this is more to heal an injury, more so than something like an Iron Hand formula?

Po Chi Lam
04-13-2007, 07:11 PM
The formula can be used as a Iron Palm formula. I would use the cooling formula immediately after the training to control the inflammation. Since iron palm training causes minor injuries each time you train and then the body heals stronger, you want to tonify in between training. This formula has some good tonification herbs. To tonify strongly you should take internal herbs to make the bones, muscles, skin and tendons stronger. Unfortunately the herbs that tonify well are also very warming so you should see an herbalist to see if you can take the tonifying herbs or one better suited for your constitution.

Royal Dragon
04-13-2007, 07:35 PM
Interesting, this formula comes with a companion that is taken internally.

herb ox
04-14-2007, 01:20 AM
Po Chi Lam - your understanding of die da is most impressive. I hope you will continue to bring tha' wisdom... seen? Welcome to the forum.

By the way, nice to see Becca and Royal Dragon representin' in the TCM forum.

peace

'ox

Royal Dragon
04-14-2007, 03:01 PM
It's nice to be here!!!! :D

PlumDragon
04-15-2007, 10:28 AM
The formula can be used as a Iron Palm formula.
Each group/person will do their training a bit differently and if it works for you or your group, all the power to you--theres more than 1 way to skin a cat and I feel its important to be open to the fact that others will go about things differently and still obtain good results.

Nevertheless, while this formula probably works decently for basic tendon/bone trauma or limb knocking exercises, I wouldnt feel very comfortable using it for iron hand training. Other than the 4 kidney/liver tonics, theres not a whole lot in the way of representative iron hand herbs.

Royal Dragon
04-15-2007, 11:22 AM
What herbs are good for Iron hand?