aikido is fake?

[phoenixrising]

How many of you ever took a belt test this difficult? (just curious)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI

[Merryprankster]

That difficult?

No.

I can safely say that none of my belts were ever earned by having three people run headlong at me, full tilt and completely off balance, who threw themselves or fell as soon as I touched them with my fingers.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i didnt see a reasonable attack but i did see a lot of compliant 'attackers'. i did aikido for a few years and personally feel it is a good art conceptually. what it stands for is great. it has some great maneuvers. however, i have not seen a realistic training dojo ever. i would love to see it. but seriously if he yelled hajime at 3 ppl that knew how to fight as opposed to 3 aikido practitioners (who really only learn to defend) he would not have 3 guys blindly running at him attempting to ... tackle? it doesnt even create a realistic replication of 3 ppl that don't know how to fight. if you had 3 average untrained schumcks off the street odds are even they wouldnt attack so poorly. i dunno. anyway, 3 ppl that knew how to fight would not go in like that full tilt which means they dont have the momentum aikido needs for throwing or countering them. and the only branch i have seen that can even do anything remotely close to defending a jab is kokikai aikido. i like the spin that marayama (sp) sensei put on the style. but even still i have not seen a realistic example in training or in the real world. i would say if you are thinking of doing aikido you should study bagua instead. i see similar principals but bagua (from what i have seen and experienced) is a more direct and efficient way of doing it. it does less of the unnecessary stepping and direction changes for the same end result. i actually recently got into a conversation with an aikidoka that was telling me that it was the perfect art. and when i tried to ask about its defense against a jab or non compliant attacker he said aikido isnt about violence its about talking your way out of aggression. than said i have too much of a western mindset to understand. to which i said but in real life some ppl are just a$$holes and won't be talked down. they want to fight and they will so what then? and he kept saying aikido isnt about fighting. so we went in circles. but yeah thats my opinion for what its worth. maybe i do have a western mindset if that means i am looking for something with practicle application. dont get me wrong i like theory and philosophy of martial art too but if thats what i am looking for i would just go and read a book about aikido and save the money it takes to sign up for a dojo and the time it takes to train. that is if all i want is the rhetoric. i also doubt this guy had a strong handle on the idea of bushido and the warrior mentality. he is probably just another dirty hippy that thinks he knows the secrets of the universe.

[Samurai Jack]

Did either of you actually watch the entire video? The earlier stuff with Stephen Seagal demonstrating techniques during a class are just that; classroom instruction. The belt tests are at the end of the video.

So if you can find the time to sit through all the admittedly silly "headlong", "off balance", "dirty hippies", and have the patience to see what was being referenced (i.e. the belt tests), maybe you could answer the following questions rephrased for clarity:

Have you ever had to randori (i.e. pressure test) with three people or more at once? If so, what was it like?

For extra credit you could also reveal whether you receive classroom instruction before you attempt a technique, or do you just try whatever random activity you can think of when you (spar, roll, randori etc.) and call it (insert your favorite martial art here)?

[Merryprankster]

Samurai Jack - Oops.

I'll sit through till the end. Thanks for the heads up.

As far as the first one, I've had to randori multiple attacker situations, but never for a belt test. It's hard *shrug* pure and simple. You have to very quickly define short goals. Emphasis is always on making space to escape, or using one person as a shield while you try to find a hole to go through. At least it was for me.

As far as the second question, I don't understand it. Not trying to be a jerk.

As to "Aikido being fake," it's like anything else. Train hard and realistically and it'll work. An Aikido guy showed up at a BJJ tournament, wristlock threw a dude I know who is very good, and eventually won his match by being "unthrowable/untakedownable" for the rest of the period.

[Merryprankster]

OK - got to the end. And yes, that's exactly what sparring 3 people who are intent on dragging you down and overbearing you looks/feels like.

[Mr Punch]

As to "Aikido being fake," it's like anything else. Train hard and realistically and it'll work. An Aikido guy showed up at a BJJ tournament, wristlock threw a dude I know who is very good, and eventually won his match by being "unthrowable/untakedownable" for the rest of the period.Not disregarding the first two sentences of this quote but what the guy did is already touted as being complete fantasy across most of the internet, including most of the BJJ guys you'll talk to:

1) Wristlock throws are frequently ridiculed, and

2) Being 'unthrowable/untakedownable' (BTW, why were you using inversion marks? - seems like he really was for the duration of that match! :) ) is of course complete nonsense.

I've used pure aiki footwork to completely avoid people shooting on me in the grappling sparring in my MMA class, and I've even managed to take them down (in a messy heap but) on my terms (in aiki, this was in one case my kneeling and having some degree of control of him... I then couldn't finish him as it was early in my days in MMA and I didn't know what to do, though since then I managed to pull off a dunno wtf you'd call it, where you have them on their back and push their elbow into their jaw, rolling them and pinning them onto their side, which is a standard aiki finish to kotegaeshi). Of course I had pretty much the whole mat space in which to prance about so it wouldn't have worked in a ring or probably the street.

I'm not dissing you, just the paradigms that everybody takes as scripture.

Couple of BTWs: strange question - do you think he won 'fairly'?

And what wristlock throw did he use?

[xcakid]

My 1st Black test in Shaolin Kempo was somewhat similar. We had to spar with 2 people which included take downs(sweeps,throws). No not 3 but two was enough. This was after a 3 mile run, 50 or so push ups, 50 or so sit ups. Then doing all forms from white to black. Then doing defensive technics from white to black. Then doing weapons forms. Then doing knife and clubs defensive technics from white to black. Then one on one sparring then two on one sparring. We had very little rest cause we rotated. A group of us were doing forms while another group would do defensive technics and the other would do weapons forms all at the same time. Then rotate. It was 3+hrs of pure torture all we had were brief water breaks and small breaks to get you sparring gear on or off or to get your weapons. I ended up with a jammed thumb and 2 cracked floating ribs on the left side. When you are sparring tired, control is hard to come by. :o

[Samurai Jack]

Merry Prankster:

My second question was a result of my being a little miffed at the presumptions being made. I'm sorry about that. I've seen aikido misrepresented here several times in the last six months or so, which ticks me off, because the posters often have no idea what they are seeing or commenting on.

It's akin to someone saying, "Those Brazilian Ju Jitsu guys have incredible kicks, but if you take them down, they're totally out of their element."

Yes, it has been that incorrect on most occasions.

I don't mind people discussing aikido's weak points as long as they do it accurately. It's not cool to spread misinformation.

All of that said, I am curious about BJJ's training methods, as there are no legitimate schools (recognized by any BJJ organizing body) in my city.

Do you typically get instruction in technique before you start rolling? The way it is discussed around here, it often seems that you learn the techniques by trail and error while being pummeled by senior students. LOL

[Samurai Jack]

Mr. Punch:

How have you adjusted your own training to shore up aikido's weaknesses, and what are those weaknesses in your opinion?

I was recently reprimanded for doing randori with a few senior students on our own time "because (I) wasn't ready." However, I easily handled every one of my partners creatively and effectively, while *they* seemed a little hesitant and confused when it was their turn. I have done judo, boxing, and kungfu for years before coming to aikido though, and was really comfortable doing full-speed randori. Sometimes I think we are discouraged from testing ourselves for too long, but judging from most of my peers, I'd agree that they "weren't ready". I do know aikido "works" though. I use it often in my job actually.

I'm just curious about your thoughts, as you are the senior most aikidoka on this board.

[Charles T Rose]

http://www.nwmaacademy.com/

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch:

How have you adjusted your own training to shore up aikido's weaknesses, and what are those weaknesses in your opinion?I quit training! :D

Erm, well, I'm currently looking for a good dojo, and not very actively for various private reasons.

If I was back in the UK, my old sensei there was always open to new methods and ways of training and injecting more realism into things, and we had a lot of LEOs and doormen, and trainers of both...

I'll get back to this to answer it more fully tomorrow: it's late here now.


I was recently reprimanded for doing randori with a few senior students on our own time "because (I) wasn't ready." However, I easily handled every one of my partners creatively and effectively, while *they* seemed a little hesitant and confused when it was their turn. ...I'd agree that they "weren't ready". I do know aikido "works" though. What grade are you at and what does that entail in your org (what did you have to do for your last grading? In my school in the UK, everybody does randori, although of course nobody really tries to nail the lower grades. The one-on-one jiyuu-geiko is often more useful I tend to think as you can go to town on your partner a bit more, but that does need a higher level of skill I think.

Why did you think your kohai weren't ready? Was it just that they were hesitant? That may be because they were worried about getting hurt or hurting you. Aiki's so sweet! :rolleyes:


I'm just curious about your thoughts, as you are the senior most aikidoka on this board.Aw shucks, am I really? I would doubt that very much: I gave up grading after shodan for various reasons to do with differences in training practice, and haven't regularly been in a dojo for about 5 years. A couple of lurkers outrank me I think, in knowledge and grade, though haven't seen them around for ages.

[Mr Punch]

http://www.nwmaacademy.com/I missed the point.

[Samurai Jack]

Ah, the link is to a dojo in my 'hood for BJJ. Thank you Charles. Do you happen to train there? Can you answer the question concerning the training method?

[Samurai Jack]

Yes, randori is still a very weird topic to me in my dojo. I have to admit that when I began training we did a lot of what I consider to be randori (from my judo background), namely freestyle live practice. We did this with Sensei's blessing between classes, and recieved formal instruction for a while during a few classes.

Apparently this is not what my Sensei considers randori, however. To him that means multiple attackers, and a differnet set of conditions. i realize that this isn't how everyone in the world views it, but it is how he views it. We do very little live testing anymore. I miss it. I've been told to stop. I don't know if it's because he didn't want people to get hurt or not, but Sensei has made it clear that he dosen't feel we're ready.

I feel my seniors were nervous, and that they didn't know how to do thier thing in a live, full speed setting. Not a big surprise as we don't do it anymore.

:(

[Samurai Jack]

Oh, and I'm ranked at San Kyu. I'll be testing for Ni Kyu in May. I've been training for over four years.

I've been told we'll do more randori after Shodan.

[SevenStar]

All of that said, I am curious about BJJ's training methods, as there are no legitimate schools (recognized by any BJJ organizing body) in my city.

Do you typically get instruction in technique before you start rolling? The way it is discussed around here, it often seems that you learn the techniques by trail and error while being pummeled by senior students. LOL


you learn as you go. Yeah, you will roll before you have a handle on any techniques, but IMO, there's reason for it. Matter of factly, there was an article written about it by roy harris some years back -I'll see if I can find it. In a nutshell though, when you first start rolling, you have zero hope or chance of beating someone who has been rolling longer than you. The purpose is to teach you to use your attributes and to stay alive. you develp fighting spirit. You learn to use your strength when you need it. you learn to deal with constantly getting beaten. you are drilling techniques in class but are not yet in a position to be able to apply them. As time goes on, you learn techniques and you temper yourself to learn how to relax, use your strength when necessary, etc. I guess in a sense, you could liken it to boot camp. you are pushed to your limit and your fighting instinct is brought out and developed. Your continued training teaches you how to use it.

[SevenStar]

http://www.onthemat.com/articles/Progression_in_Brazilian_JiuJitsu_10_13_2005.html

"White belts are expected to rely on speed, power, strength and explosiveness. For that is all they know. However, once a person dons the "blue belt", the world of Jiu Jitsu suddenly changes."

[phoenixrising]

Merry,

The original question was 'have you ever taken a belt test this difficult.' While the attacks may or may not be realistic, do you think you could remain on your feet in that situation? Do you think it would be easy? Do you think this kind of test is without value and has no relationship to combative efficiency? Are there no parralels?

[Knifefighter]

The problem with aikido is that the theory is completely different from the reality.
As you can see from that video, the theory of being able to stay on your feet and fight off three attackers is completely disproven as soon as the three attackers fight with full intent.

[Knifefighter]

Merry,

The original question was 'have you ever taken a belt test this difficult.' While the attacks may or may not be realistic, do you think you could remain on your feet in that situation? Do you think it would be easy? Do you think this kind of test is without value and has no relationship to combative efficiency? Are there no parralels?

Training in being attacked by three attackers absolultely has benefit, as long as they are not complying and are attacking with intent. Training the way aikido does with less that full speed and intent for most of the time, has much less benefit.

You can see by that video how different "alive" vs. compliant attacks by multiple opponents change what happens... unless one can avoid and escape very quickly, the fight will usually end up in a clinch and then on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Do you typically get instruction in technique before you start rolling? The way it is discussed around here, it often seems that you learn the techniques by trail and error while being pummeled by senior students. LOL

Depending on the school, beginners generally get somewhere between a week and a month of pure technique, principle and strategy work before they begin rolling. After that first introductory period, rolling live and learning technique go hand in hand. It’s pretty much the same in any competitive combat grapping system- BJJ, Sambo, Judo and wrestling all start live sparring relatively soon.

[Merryprankster]

The original question was 'have you ever taken a belt test this difficult.' While the attacks may or may not be realistic, do you think you could remain on your feet in that situation? Do you think it would be easy? Do you think this kind of test is without value and has no relationship to combative efficiency? Are there no parralels?


Many things to answer. I will start with the above. I already said my belt tests were not of a multiple opponent nature, but that I had done "multiple opponent" training. The attacks at the END of the video, as I stated, are a pretty accurate representation of what 3 on 1 looks like - big mess.

Could I remain on my feet? Unlikely for the whole time. Thanks to my BJJ training though, unless I were in a situation where I were with people with a significant amount of ground experience, I could regain my feet. I also have significant wrestling and Judo experience, so while I don't think I could remain on my feet, I think I would definitely make a pretty good accounting...now ask me how I'd do against 3 people trying to hit me :D.

Would this be easy? I don't think so. But much of this depends on the length of the test. Easy in the sense that it would be easy for me to execute skill/technique? Of course not - I'd have three people hanging on me!!! But a five minute test is different from, say, a 60 minute test, which I have gone through (purple belt test at Lloyd's is 3 minutes with everybody who is there. 20 people showed up. You do the math.) I've also had the joy (sarcasm) and privelege (no sarcasm) of being on the mat with Lloyd Irvin and Rhadi Ferguson setting the ground rules as constant movement for 50 minutes straight. And I do mean constant. As in, they kicked you off and sent you home if you didn't. No pauses, no stalling....moving from one position into another. I was exhausted, my partner was exhausted, and at the end, we were simply trading ankle locks and tapping....

Does this type of test have value? If and only if the people being tested are training hard in an environment that includes frequent, regular, full speed sparring. Otherwise, it's just fluff.

Does this bear any relationship to real life? As much as any training can.

The other questions/comments: Samurai Jack - no harm, no foul. I get you. And yes, we do get instruction, but it's more akin to the way boxers and wrestlers might approach things. In boxing, I learned the four basic punches and I was in good enough shape that after a couple of weeks, my coach felt comfortable with me sparring full speed (after a couple of times of jab sparring etc). In wrestling, similar occurs.

Basically, you just get your butt stomped and if your ego can't handle it, you're toast. There's one thing about every high-ranking guy in BJJ or every wrestler on a team....regardless of their personal flaws, every single one of them stayed. I've seen guys who simply couldn't take having their asses handed to them day in and day out, and just disappeared.

And the aikido guy - I don't know what wristlock throw he used. I got this second hand from the guy who got beat. How do I feel about it...well, I feel the same about it as I do about stalling in BJJ in general. I take full advantage of the rules, but avoiding engagement should be a passivity penalty. Refs are very slow to call passivity type stuff in BJJ. I think the tolerance should be a little bit less. Actively avoiding engagement (ie, defending only, without mounting a counterattack, over and over and over) should be penalized for the sake of sport. It would be equivalent to a team scoring one basket in basketball, recovering possesion, then doing absolutely nothing to try and score, while keeping the ball from the opponent. We have rules in place to keep that from happening on purpose.

While I certainly agree that this sort of passivity can be effective, that's not really the point of a competition, IMO. But this is a fault of the rules, vice a fault of the aikidoka.

[Shaolinlueb]

i never ever want to have to go through my black belt test again. but i look back on it and it was hard. full contact, blood, sweat, some tears. was it as tough as seagels? i looked at the first minute or so and yes it was as hard or harder.

[phoenixrising]

Here is 4 pages of clips (there are some short ones of competition) of tomiki/shodokan aikido, which uses randori and competition as part of the training (the founder of this style was a judoka). They incorporate resistance training- do the anti-aikidoists out there like this better? http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=shodokan%20aikido&search_sort=video_avg_rating&search_category=0

NOTE: I am not an aikidoka at the moment so I am not trying to convince anyone of its effectiveness- I'm trying to figure that out too. I practiced it briefly (a month or two) eight years ago and thought it was really cool- the way it teaches you to use your body as one thing, the flow of it, the way I was able to make my partner go completely horizontal (like superman flying) in a circle around me using no force/effort. I am researching it now and considering getting back into it (I live in LA now and there are tons of great teachers of it, all styles here) but am interested in self defense so trying to figure out if its good for that or not (many of its practitioners strongly say it is), might even do it even if it isn't cos its so cool and supplement with something else (judo?)

[Knifefighter]

Here is 4 pages of clips (there are some short ones of competition) of tomiki/shodokan aikido, which uses randori and competition as part of the training (the founder of this style was a judoka). They incorporate resistance training- do the anti-aikidoists out there like this better? http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=shodokan%20aikido&search_sort=video_avg_rating&search_category=0

Notice how the competition clips look very little like the demo clips, but much more like judo or Sambo, which is what happens when both people are going live.

On a side note, what is up with the almost total disregard for what I am guessing is supposed to be a blade by both participants in most of the competition clips?

[SevenStar]

Here is 4 pages of clips (there are some short ones of competition) of tomiki/shodokan aikido, which uses randori and competition as part of the training (the founder of this style was a judoka). They incorporate resistance training- do the anti-aikidoists out there like this better? http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=shodokan%20aikido&search_sort=video_avg_rating&search_category=0

NOTE: I am not an aikidoka at the moment so I am not trying to convince anyone of its effectiveness- I'm trying to figure that out too. I practiced it briefly (a month or two) eight years ago and thought it was really cool- the way it teaches you to use your body as one thing, the flow of it, the way I was able to make my partner go completely horizontal (like superman flying) in a circle around me using no force/effort. I am researching it now and considering getting back into it (I live in LA now and there are tons of great teachers of it, all styles here) but am interested in self defense so trying to figure out if its good for that or not (many of its practitioners strongly say it is), might even do it even if it isn't cos its so cool and supplement with something else (judo?)


isn't it odd how this looks like judo shiai? nobody is just effortlessly flying all over the place. THAT is how things look when done with resistance, unlike the demos where guys just go flying.

I'm going to look at the ruleset for these though - it looks like it's supposed to be self defense scenarios - like one is arracking with a blade and the other is defending. If that is the case though, why do they not respect the blade, and why don't the attackers use it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUp5u7_kUQM&mode=related&search=

He's CHASING the guy with the blade...

EDIT: looks like KF beat me to it. Ah well, great minds think alike.

[PangQuan]

ya, looks like its simulating a knife there. and if thats the case the knife wielder fell ya, but he got at least 3 inches of steel in his enemy.

who really won?

[Mr Punch]

We do very little live testing anymore. I miss it. I've been told to stop. I don't know if it's because he didn't want people to get hurt or not, but Sensei has made it clear that he dosen't feel we're ready.

I feel my seniors were nervous, and that they didn't know how to do thier thing in a live, full speed setting. Not a big surprise as we don't do it anymore.

:(You see, that's a d@mn shame. In my school (this refers to the dojo I went to in the UK, last time regularly over 7 years ago) you do randori from the start pretty much, like I said, plus jiyu-geiko most classes. But, the HQ of our org pretty much banned it, in favour of ki exercises (read 'group wank') and minimal touch (read 'flying monkey') crap.

My shodan grade was the last straw before my sensei capitulated to the HQ's grading syllabus. And in that grading I actually stopped my uke in randori several times and asked for attacks instead of overbalanced scooby-doo rushes. I even dismissed a couple of them for crap attacks and for throwing themselves! This was how my sensei taught me and what used to be common in aiki schools in the fifties and sixties if you read around (before Ueshiba's son changed the meanign of 'aiki' into it's more harmonious claptrap). The boss agreed and chewed out the uke for being useless, but after my grading they got wetter and wetter.

In the grading there were three types of randori: with proscribed attacks, ordered attacks and random attacks. The nage would know what the proscribed attacks were: the shihan shouted 'Tsuki' or something and everyone would run in and punch, and keep punching. But that's when it becaome like keystone cops and I'd have to berate people for lining up, or waiting their turn or whatever. The ordered attacks were when the shihan got high grades in other arts to go and do something more 'specialized', eg, the shotokan karate geezer would come and do roundhouse kicks or whatever.

Those first two formats were supposed to be for the nage to show a different tech each time. Basic positional awareness was supposed to be shown (so if I let someone get behind me it was supposed to be bad) but it was an unrealistic scenario designed for pressure testing, speed and crispness of delivery and variation of techs under pressure.

The variation was not so important: the crispness and speed of you extrication from the situation was more important. One time for example, the uke were coming in with straight punches mostly (though there were a few haymakers) and I just did straight-through iriminage (looks like a boxing parry, slip and palm to the face, following through for head control and a throw, sometimes you turn around the back of uke, take his angle and cut in under his shoulder-blade with your free hand while the palm-strike hand cuts down through his posture - you don't see this move in MMA, I've narrowly missed pulling it off a few times in full-contact sparring when it just confuses people and gives you good positioning behind them, but you do see it a lot in WW2 and modern army combatative manuals and some JJJ schools) and that was OK, because it was fast and finished quickly and more importantly, gave me plenty of initiative against reluctant 'attackers', and got me out of the centre quickly so I was in a position to run away! The last guy I took more control, slowed down the tech halfway (a couple of the other guys had pretty much thrown themselves) so he couldn't breakfall when he wanted to, got rear head control and sank down with close control to a kneel with his arm barred across my knee when he finally went to the ground (BTW, I've pulled that off in full contact before).

The freestyle randori in my grading was just striking and kicking format, nobody was trying to tackle or take me down. Back then I couldn't have dealt with it anyway if anyone was half competant, but I did ask why people couldn't do that. Of cousre the answer is that nobody uses attacking grappling in aikido anymore.

I also did weapons randori, which was even less realistic. The first would be everyone coming in with one attack only. Then with repeating identical attacks (completely meaningless!), and then finally with random attacks, but again nobody wanted to hurt you so they were mostly wet. OTOH, I hit people full-on (body shots, and pretty sharp raps on the head) with my jo when it was their turn, and the top-brass thanked me for it! :D That's what I was expecting, and especially for the big guy going for godan, I didn't want to sell him short (he was from a more hardcore satellite school too).

Anyway, I always tested my aiki against people from other disciplines right from the start which is how I shored up my training. In the dojo as I said, we had many LEOs, doormen and trainers of both and my sensei often let them take over the classes to let more realism come in. So although we did our share of straight stab knife attacks, we also did a lot of someone coming in with a flailing decoy arm/punch and various knife holds cutting from all angles (we often didn't know which hand the knife was in, and often did practice when the sensei wouldn't tell us it was knife day and the high grades would hide the knives in their gi). We would often be black and blue from the wooden knife. And the fancy takedowns went out the window to be replaced with lots of simple arm wraps and things that looked like those Tomiki (Shodokan) clips but with more respect for the 'knife'.

When they got too fairylike, I left. That's why I didn't ever grade over shodan. The weapons grading was separate in our org, and they invented another (IMO pointless, extraneous and not even aikido conceptually) jo kata and tried to make us all learn it, and I refused, and never went to the HQ classes. I still trained with the satellite school and my sensei until I came here...

Then here it's the same: it's getting wetter and wetter. I went to a direct student of Ueshiba's dojo for six months at first, and while he was still solid (for 70-odd!) his rokudan dojocho had watered everything down. So now I sometimes teach basics to my fu-bro and sometimes put the odd things into my MMA and fu training but I don't regularly go to a dojo anymore. If anyone knows of an old-skool hardcore dojo in Tokyo/South Saitama (pref non-Yoshinkan - they have their own problems!) please let me know!


Training in being attacked by three attackers absolultely has benefit, as long as they are not complying and are attacking with intent. Training the way aikido does with less that full speed and intent for most of the time, has much less benefit.

You can see by that video how different "alive" vs. compliant attacks by multiple opponents change what happens... unless one can avoid and escape very quickly, the fight will usually end up in a clinch and then on the ground.Yep, the randori I was taught was mostly about getting out of the way. Not so much throws, locks or striking combos, though we did those too, but escaping strategies. If you 'deal with' the first 'attacker' you are supposed to be in a position where you can run away without getting surrounded or stopped. The exercise then continues, because you go until the sensei wants you to ( :D ) or until your inextricably buried, but if you are in that position hopefully you have narrowed their effective angle of approach. The 'dealing with' usually involves pulling off half a throw or a body check and getting away.


isn't it odd how this looks like judo shiai? nobody is just effortlessly flying all over the place. THAT is how things look when done with resistance, unlike the demos where guys just go flying.Well, it's aiki! Aiki used for real doesn't look pretty. Same as any art I reckon. But don't forget, people train flying all over the place for reasons of safety and learning the dynamics of the throw, just like in judo. If I'm stuck on something, a throw or a takedown, I will still ask my MMA teacher or my aiki teacher or my kungfu teacher to demonstrate it on me, then I feel it, receive it and understand how to do it better. That's what uke means right?


I'm going to look at the ruleset for these though - it looks like it's supposed to be self defense scenarios - like one is arracking with a blade and the other is defending. If that is the case though, why do they not respect the blade, and why don't the attackers use it?
Well, I can't speak for shodokan as I've never done it other than a couple pof seminars but all I can say is that it must have been hippified along with the rest of aiki. I saw a Tomiki grading and comp a few years back where they would automatically lose for half of those positions, and the attacker would automatically lose for not coming in properly (and multi-angle attacks were allowed in the high grades, not just the staright stab).

[Stranger]

(pref non-Yoshinkan - they have their own problems

Is this a topic that can be discussed? I was just wondering if you meant technical problems with their aikido, politcal problems with the organization, or something else?

[Mr Punch]

Technically. I like Yoshinkan from what I've experienced, but whereas aikikai has its probs with people flying and not learning enough about balance, basic body mechanics, punching etc, Yoshinkan is a bit too cookie cutter: very one-two-three kind of mechanical feel I think, among other things.