Chinese influence on Japanese MA

[The Xia]

We all know about the connection between Southern Kung Fu and Karate but what about Jujitsu? I heard that Chin na is one of Jujitsu's roots. Any information on this?

[PangQuan]

lol ouch :eek:

[The Xia]

lol ouch :eek:
What? :confused:

[MasterKiller]

Shin Shin jiu-jitsu traces itself back to Shaolin Temple, but I don't know how accurate that story is.

[Black Jack II]

I would be skeptical of any real chinese influence without some serious backup. Joint locking is just one small aspect of some jui-jitsu systems.

[PangQuan]

i just think i heard all the BJJ'ers pop a blood vessle

[kal]

Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu is said to have been founded by a doctor called Akiyama who learned some techniques in China around the early 1600s.

Also, the ninjutsu crowd of Dr Hatsumi claim that some of their styles came from China. e.g. Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto Ryu Koppojutsu. But I have no idea how genuine these claims and lineages are,

[lkfmdc]

all martial arts from everywhere in the world trace their lineage back to one caveman named Ughh, as a direct descendent of Ughh, I thus own all martial arts, send me my royalty checks

[FlyingCrane]

In my opinion, the roots of Japanese Judo and Jujutsu are in the Chinese/Mongolian Shuai Chiao system.

Shuai Chiao is extremely old, like 5000 years old, and has numerous throws and locks ect. that are found in Japanese Judo and Jujutsu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y&mode=related&search=

[lkfmdc]

In my opinion,

As long as we qualify the statement as opinion, fine, BUT....





Shuai Chiao is extremely old, like 5000 years old, and has numerous throws and locks ect. that are found in Japanese Judo and Jujutsu.



At last count, there are around 500 forms of wrestling around the world, from different cultures, climates, time periods and affiliated with even different religions. Many never had any chance to cross polinate with other styles, YET share many of the same movements ie throws and locks....

Because all human beings have arms, legs, a head and joints arranged in the same way, the same techniques will be developed over time. It's that simple. There is only what works and what doesn't

[SevenStar]

there is NO verifiable link between chin na and jujutsu. They say gempin taught one different technique to three japanese physicians, but there is nothing solid to back it up. the japanese say that it is their own invention. Some say it came from shuai chiao. Other will tell you that shuai chiao is way more similar to sumo than to jujutsu...

[SevenStar]

i just think i heard all the BJJ'ers pop a blood vessle

not really. A bjj guy wouldn't care, as long as it works. they can make their bjj work. can the cma make his chin na work with the same effectiveness today in a live situation? that's what they would care about.

Heck, they say thai came from CMA. but then some say it came from silat and others say it came from the cambodia. Some say burma. In the end, who cares? We have something today that works.

However, ever notice how cma tends to try and take credit for everything? I bet someone here could trace african stick fighting and headbutting arts back to china...

[unkokusai]

In my opinion,



How does the answer to a question about history start with "In my opinion"?

[SevenStar]

you know we made up most of our history anyway...

[xcakid]

all martial arts from everywhere in the world trace their lineage back to one caveman named Ughh, as a direct descendent of Ughh, I thus own all martial arts, send me my royalty checks
:D LOL :D

You're wrong. His cousin arrughh invented it. Started with his club form. Ughh just took it to the next level. Since ughh did not have a club he copied the movement using his arms.

:D LOL :D

[PangQuan]

not really. A bjj guy wouldn't care, as long as it works. they can make their bjj work. can the cma make his chin na work with the same effectiveness today in a live situation? that's what they would care about.

Heck, they say thai came from CMA. but then some say it came from silat and others say it came from the cambodia. Some say burma. In the end, who cares? We have something today that works.

However, ever notice how cma tends to try and take credit for everything? I bet someone here could trace african stick fighting and headbutting arts back to china...

Ya, it was pretty much more of a joke with a few specific people in mind.

im actually suprised this hasnt escelated into a CMA vs. BJJ thread yet....that was kind of the premis behind my atempt at humor, which i guess i suck at :D

[PangQuan]

honestly, im not super worried about history of any art i practice.

its nice to know and a cool off time hobby to read about, but unless you can actually trace what your looking for to a certain degree of accuracy, then its not even worth talking about.

IMO

i totally know what your talking about. the vast majority of MMA/BJJ practitioners are only concerned with reality. which is a very good thing.

[Mr Punch]

Use the search function.

As Seven said, there's no evidence at all to say that jujutsu or sumo (or rather the old combat version sumai) came from Chinese arts. This doesn't mean they didn't or at least weren't influenced by them.

The oldest written Japanese history (the Koshiki I think) mentions a grappling sport that could be sumo/ai, and does not say anything about its origins being Chinese - in fact I think it actually says it's 'local'. At that point there was no history of animosity between the two people's and the book mentions many aspects of Japanese culture as having come from China, so there'd be no reason to hide it. In fact, in that period Chinese culture was still respected and even admired so if there had have been any connection I would have thought it would have been mentioned. The impression I got from battling through modern Japanese translations and the English is that they were folk wrestling styles: that is indigenous.

Of course, since the early settlers in Japan came from Mongolia, China and Korea there's a fair chance that their fighting arts came from one or more of those countries too, but when we are talking about such ancient history it pretty much comes down to what LKFMDC says about ol' Ugh there, and to jump to any simplistic conclusion like 'jujutsu comes from chin-na' would be facetious and disingenous.

BTW, there's at leats one famous koryu jujutsu style that was supposedly invented after a famous samurai studied spiders fighting. Now, if we're looking for something to **** off the MMAers who ridicule Fuers whose arts come from mimicing animals, that'd be it! :D