Martial icons and archetypes. [Archive]

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The Xia

03-07-2007, 02:37 PM

Something that Gene said on one of my other threads made me think about this. He stated that one of the reasons Shaolin monks are placed on a pedestal is because they are iconic. He said that there really aren't many martial icons out there. Ninjas, Samurai, and Shaolin monks are pretty much the order of the day. I'd agree that these are perhaps the most well known icons but I'm trying to think of others and breaking down those three icons. In a sense, these icons can be described as archetypes. They embody certain philosophies and represent a way of life. I think that many people today are disappointed with Shaolin monks because they don't necessarily fit on the pedestal that people create. It is also important to remember that in the past Shaolin monks, or any of those icons, did not always fit the bill either. What are some of your thoughts on this topic? What other martial icons/archetypes can you think of? I'll start out. I'll break down the Samurai icon into the fiercely independent ronin and the loyal vassal. Another icon I'll throw in there is the Yamabushi and the Wudang priest.

The Xia

03-08-2007, 01:10 PM

No one has anything to say?

PangQuan

03-08-2007, 01:17 PM

are we only speaking in asian martial arts context?

what about the roman gladiator or the europian knight?

you can see the roman gladiator all over the world from condoms to food

SPJ

03-08-2007, 06:58 PM

there are many legends in each dynasty. too numberous to start.

anyhoo, there is shaolin in the north, there is wudang in the south.

shaolin famous stories starting from the 13 staff monks or gun zhen that saved king of Tang or Tang Wang Li Si Ming.

Li was the first emperor of Tang Dynasty. Shaolin was allowed to practice MA. and Shaolin was on the pedestal.--

--

--

--

:)

SPJ

03-08-2007, 07:01 PM

Shaolin is the Chan/zen sect buddhism starting from Bodhidharma or Da Mo.

Shaolin is a cultural and religious icon already.

--

:)

Oso

03-08-2007, 08:03 PM

No one has anything to say?

nope.

:D

but, seriously, I never really bought in to any icon. I generally had teachers and other martial figures in my real life that I could look up to and model after. As I've aged and looked back, I realize they had their faults as anyone does but that makes what was good about them all the better...even if some of the bad turned out to be really bad.

I suppose icons can be ok to draw inspiration from for some people and that's good if they can get someplace new from that inspiration.

EarthDragon

03-08-2007, 08:22 PM

as SPJ posted definatly Da Mo........... from him there became many.

bodhitree

03-09-2007, 05:31 AM

as SPJ posted definatly Da Mo........... from him there became many.

I would have called him stewart smalley, but, thats just me;)

Sifu Darkfist

03-09-2007, 06:23 AM

The Brothers in life and death Zhang Fei, Liu Bei, Guan Yu might have fictional as well as historical qualities, but embody the true archetype for which i find myself attempting to live up to.

Benevolence, Loyality, Honesty, selfless love, and a determined warrior spirit.

SPJ

03-09-2007, 08:45 AM

yes. this is the fav tale of all time.

the king, the minister and the general working together.

they "banded" together in the peach garden. or Tao Yuan San Jie Yi.

they are the best examples of many things as pointed out.

Yi especially.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYrIu4Rntg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR0W5kB-8qw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BCaooja01Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obn6YVKVVX0&mode=related&search=

3rd visit to the straw house.

:)

Samurai Jack

03-09-2007, 09:43 AM

There's the peasant-hero who uses everyday life as his training. For example "Coal" Ma of Ba Gua Zhang developed incredible striking power by hitting his sacks of coal while he waited for customers to come by. His competitors at the lei tai would often parade around with banners that had poetic referances to thier skills such as "Eagle swift, mountian firm", or "Quick as the rushing wind." Ma thought such things were silly, but on the insistance of the promoters he came up with a banner of his own. It read, "I hit you once and you are dead." Supposedly he lived up to that statement on numerous occassions.

"Demon Leg" Chen had no formal wushu training. In fact he was a lowly concrete mixer. He would mix concrete with his legs for hours every day. In old China, concrete mixers would have to step into a vat of liquid concrete and stir it with thier bare feet to keep it from setting. Chen did this menial job for years, and as a result, his feet became extremly rough and calloused, and his legs were so muscular that it is said that the circumfrence of one of his thighs was greater than that of his waist. His family thought his legs were so deformed that they named him "Demon Leg" as a joke. He was teased about it mercilessly. One day a horse went mad in a crowded marketplace near a construction site, and after injuring several people it charged straight for Chen. Quick as a flash "Demon Leg" kicked the horse squarely in the jaw and killed it on the spot. After that a wushu teacher accepted him as a disciple, and the derisive name "Demon Leg" became his badge of honor.

mantis108

03-09-2007, 12:35 PM

Northern Shaolin, that is Henan Shaolin, would not have enjoyed the global fame and fortune that it has today if not for the long list of legendary Southern/Fujian Shaolin heroes who are immortalized by all kinds of pop culture and modern media (ie movies and internet). The rise of Southern Shaolin fame has a lot to do with secret society such as the Hongmen - former organization of present day crime syndicate, the triads. There are theories about the connection of Hongmen and Southern Shaolin and the intimate relationship between the Red Boats (pop culture) and Southern Shaolin martial arts (ie Yong Chun).

The phenomenon of secret society is based upon the concept of "behavioural social contract" which are ingrained in Chinese mindset largely thanks to martial novels through out the ages. The grand dady of these behavioural social contract (BSC) is the "Oath of the Peach Garden" which is the pack made between Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei. This is a dramatization based on real life and times of these 3 sworn brothren during the 3 kingdom period. This is echoed by the legend of the "water margin" which expanded the pack from 3 members to 108 including women. Hongmen largely identified with the heroes of this pack of 108 model.

The characteristics of BSC is that it blurs the line between family life and career life. It also perpetuates the syndicate elitist culture in political entrepreneurial community of ancient China. It's all about the clan's political fortune. This in turn institutionalized syndicate elitism in TCMA even until today. This is what is behind the adage "Tian Xia Gong Fu Chu Shaolin" (the world's Kung Fu/martial arts comes of Shaolin temple).

Icons are always more than meet the eyes.

Mantis108

GeneChing

03-09-2007, 01:51 PM

I was thinking of the term icon in a more general sense, as a representation or a symbolic figure, when I made my ninjas, monks and samurai comment. Certainly you could use it to apply to specific heroes like Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei, sort of in the same sense that you might say Britney is a pop icon, but that's not how I intended the comment. Besides, I'd argue that while Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei are well known to sinologists and Chinese, most Americans don't have a clue who they are. That being said, I'd venture that Samurai Jack's peasant-hero is also too secular. I'm thinking more of icons that general public know. BTW, this is a tangent to the Monk Fetish (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45289) thread, which has gone a little sour (or perhaps obtuse is a better word).

Sad to say that the more I think about it, the more Rex Kwon Do rises as an American icon for the martial arts. There's this persistent view of martial arts as nerdy and as second class in America. It's even more pronounced in kung fu. I'd attribute that to two factors: 1. the easily caricatured and ubiquitous kung fu movie and 2. the word kung fu. 'Fu' just sounds funny. It's a funny sounding word if you speak English, akin to foo foo or phooey.

SPJ

03-09-2007, 08:07 PM

yes. there are different levels of brother/sisterhood across the society.

1. "oath of the peach garden" etc is like a bond by blood. that one would die for your bro if needed to. this would exist in the military, police or underworld societies etc.

2. loose bonds would be from the same hometown, college, same or similar professions etc. we would help "brothers" from the same town, school etc. we are not required to, but we may like to.

sort of extended family--

:)

The Xia

03-11-2007, 11:43 AM

are we only speaking in asian martial arts context?

what about the roman gladiator or the europian knight?

you can see the roman gladiator all over the world from condoms to food
I mean in a context of styles that people still practice today. The armed combat of Roman gladiators and European Knights isn't really a common practice outside of role-play Renaissance fair stuff and some reconstructionalists if I'm not mistaken.

Sad to say that the more I think about it, the more Rex Kwon Do rises as an American icon for the martial arts. There's this persistent view of martial arts as nerdy and as second class in America. It's even more pronounced in kung fu. I'd attribute that to two factors: 1. the easily caricatured and ubiquitous kung fu movie and 2. the word kung fu. 'Fu' just sounds funny. It's a funny sounding word if you speak English, akin to foo foo or phooey.
Yeah I think that mcdojos have given martial arts a bad rep. If you are over a certain age and say you practice martial arts, many people look down on that.
Samurai Jack,
I think that's a good archetype you have identified. The peasant martial hero is certainly something you can find in Wuxia novels, Hong Kong movies, and legends. Although it's not really something that's in American pop-culture, it's certainly has deep roots in Asian culture.
Another one I thought of is the Karate strongman. I'd say it's relatively modern and very Japanese. I think Choki Motobu and Mas Oyama fit this archetype I'm talking about. You can also see this archetype in Japanese movies (like many of Sonny Chiba's), comics, and video games.

The Xia

03-11-2007, 12:20 PM

but, seriously, I never really bought in to any icon. I generally had teachers and other martial figures in my real life that I could look up to and model after. As I've aged and looked back, I realize they had their faults as anyone does but that makes what was good about them all the better...even if some of the bad turned out to be really bad.

I suppose icons can be ok to draw inspiration from for some people and that's good if they can get someplace new from that inspiration.
It's true that even icons are human beings too. But deeper then that, I think even the archetypes themselves have a lot more to them then what often meets the eye. I agree that icons can be good if people draw inspiration from them to become good martial artists. Plenty of good martial artists were inspired by the silver screen for example. I think it becomes a problem when the icon doesn't inspire people to train hard, but to act in a different way merely to feel cool. Unfortunately, I think the Shaolin monk icon tends to do this a lot (probably because the mysticism associated with this icon seems to attract a certain type). When the Shaolin monk icon inspires someone to act differently so he feels cool (as opposed to inspiring someone to train hard), I think that person will likely come off as a nerdy basket case. The more people that become like this, the more it feeds into the bad rep that martial arts have and the growth of the Rex Kwan Do icon that Gene mentioned.

The Xia

03-11-2007, 08:14 PM

ttt.......

brothernumber9

03-12-2007, 08:12 AM

The Xia

03-12-2007, 08:35 PM

How about the one icon/archetype that is embodied by a single person? The samurai, and ninja, and shaolin monk are all clearly identifiable perpetuated at least in image and association to martial arts.

But this conversation is incomplete without including Bruce Lee. Primarily in one of three images. 1) No shirt or wife beater, black pants 2)black "kung fu" outfit with white cuffs 3) Yellow jump suit with the black stripe. And all with nunchuks, or as it is said in the icon/archetype proper, "numbchuks".
Good observation. I think many people have gotten into martial arts because of him. There are also loads of people that want to be like him. But people want to be more like the Bruce Lee of legend then the real Bruce Lee. The legendary Bruce Lee is the icon. But as many of us are aware, the real Bruce Lee differs from the icon. But the same can be said for other icons. Although this case is different because those other icons encompass many people where this icon is a reflection of an individual. The icon of Bruce Lee still fits into a certain kind of hero archetype. Bruce Lee’s onscreen characters were mostly calm and collected heroes who enjoyed what they did. Bruce’s characters are part of the same category as James Bond.

bodhitree

03-13-2007, 06:11 AM

The taichi hippy, the "I'm a westerner who's got an easterner trapped inside of me", the I just switched from TMA to MMA so I'm tough I need to act overly masculine but really inside I just like touching men:eek: , the I'm an old sweaty guy but I love my once a week karate,

GeneChing

03-13-2007, 09:33 AM

Speaking of the little dragon, check out what's opening the 25th SF Asian American Film Festival (http://www.asianamericanfilmfestival.org/2007/films-events/film-detail/?i=42):

Finishing the Game
credits:
Director: Justin Lin
Producers: Jullie Asato, Sal Gatdula, Justin Lin
Writers: Josh Diamond, Justin Lin
Cast: Roger Fan, Sung Kang, Dustin Nguyen, McCaleb Burnett
USA 2007 | 88 mins | 35mm | English

IN PERSON: Justin Lin, Sung Kang, Dustin Nguyen, Roger Fan, Leonardo Nam, McCaleb Burnett, Julie Asato, Mousa Kraish, MC Hammer, Yul Kwon (MC)

In 1973, Bruce Lee died suddenly at the age of 32, leaving behind footage intended for his dream project THE GAME OF DEATH. Not one to miss an opportunity for profit, Hollywood executives cast stand-ins to double as Lee in a rewritten script which took advantage of 12 minutes of Lee’s real footage, including his now immortal fight with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in his iconic yellow-and-black jumpsuit.

Following his groundbreaking indie hit BETTER LUCK TOMORROW (Opening Night, SFIAAFF ’02) as well as studio ventures ANNAPOLIS and THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS: TOKYO DRIFT, director Justin Lin returns to his roots with FINISHING THE GAME, a rollicking comedy spoof about this egregiously exploitative search for Bruce Lee’s stand-in. Documentarians capture the absurd, hilarious and sometimes disturbingly true-to-life (but decidedly fictional) audition process as a motley assortment of candidates vie for the role: a former-TV-star-turned door-to-door salesman, a Bruce Lee knockoff named Breeze Loo and some guys who don’t even look Chinese, much less like Lee.

FINISHING THE GAME turns out to be less about Bruce Lee than it is a lampoon of Hollywood in the 1970s, poking fun at the behind-the-scenes farces and the racism—both blatant and subtle—ingrained in the industry. Lin reunites many of his cast from BETTER LUCK TOMORROW (Sung Kang, Roger Fan, Parry Shen) and populates the film with cameos by friends gained along the way, such as Leonardo Nam and Brian Tee (from TOKYO DRIFT), Dustin Nguyen (21 JUMP STREET), MTV’s Suchin Pak, James Franco and even MC Hammer. Telling the story of the struggles faced by Asian American actors of the time, Lin has ingeniously created a vehicle for some of today’s counterparts to showcase their impressive comedic talents. If that's not an example of an icon, I don't know what is.

As for the tai chi hippie, I see that as a permutation of Rex Kwon Do. I think Rex is more universal, an echo of something that happened following the 70's wave in the wake of Enter the Dragon. Remember Hai Karate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnU9zT87j4) cologne? There's a classic example of using the icon to market. Just look at this vintage Hai Karate vid (Regis and Bishop? :rolleyes: ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKenJMjHsVc). But I can't think of a pop media example of a tai chi hippie, so I don't think that one is totally established yet. There's the wholesome tai chi yoga chick, which is a new icon, but I think the yoga far outweighs the tai chi.

Samurai Jack

03-13-2007, 04:36 PM

Gene, I think you just hit on a great idea for the mag: Wholesome tai-chi yoga chicks! You could feature a different model every month wearing some kinda sporty mid-riff baring outfit and stretching and doing tai-cheeeee.

Centerfold anyone?

GeneChing

03-14-2007, 09:58 AM

...I'm sure they'd get choked out by bald tattooed MMA dudes.

The Xia

03-14-2007, 08:43 PM

...I'm sure they'd get choked out by bald tattooed MMA dudes.
ROTFLMAO! :D

But I can't think of a pop media example of a tai chi hippie, so I don't think that one is totally established yet.
How's about David Carradine/Kwai Chang Caine? I put the two together because I think the character became associated with the man (same thing happens to many actors, including Bruce Lee whom we discussed). Don't think that Kwai Chang Caine is associated with Carradine? Then look at the Yellow Pages commercials lol. Anyway, he is definitely part of the Shaolin Monk iconography but he does seem to reach into the tai chi hippie category. Maybe it's just me, but I get that vibe from him. Ditto for the new (not ten years ago) Steven Seagal.

Jimbo

03-14-2007, 09:07 PM

I think since late 2000, the flying Chinese swordswomen/men, who float better than astronauts on the space shuttle.

Few people I encounter anymore (below 30-something) seem too familiar with Bruce Lee other than the done-to-death movie cat-cries. But a lot of people seem to imitate Mr. Miyagi when they want to pretend they know martial arts. In the '70s and '80s if certain morons drove past an Asian on the street they'd yell, "Hey, Bruce!" or do a Bruce Lee cry...or, "Aaah, Grasshoppa!" Now it's, "Hey, Jet Li!" And of course, Ninjas have become a household image.

Being a media-driven society, people tend to associate martial arts with movies and video games more than, say, the actual Japanese samurai; or the Chinese villagers, military men, and caravan escorters who trained CMA.

But I really think the new icon is the shaved-headed, tatooed MMA fighter. It seems to have eclipsed boxing in popularity, by far. And watching competitive sports (as a whole) on TV and PPV is going to attract a lot more interest worldwide than training martial arts, IMO, or reading about historical figures. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, only what the trend seems to be.

SPJ

03-14-2007, 10:04 PM

no body really believes in gravity defying of walking on the walls and flying from roof top to roof top.

these are exerggerations from Wu xia novels.

--

however, the values of Xia and Yi are more important than anything else.

so Zhang Zi yi has the green cloud sword and yet her journey in the Wu Lin will be shortlived if without Yi and Xin/trust/giving words and keeping the promises etc.

--

icons of Wu Dang, Shaolin or even the movies of "crounching tigers and hidden dragons" etc

they are still about Xia Yi and Xin.

--

:)

GeneChing

11-26-2008, 10:23 AM

...and it sure didn't deserve it's own thread. Way to OT.

Sooooo, speaking of Britney (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=744386&postcount=13)...

Kevin Federline ended their marriage, Britney Spears tells Rolling Stone (http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/11/25/2008-11-25_kevin_federline_ended_their_marriage_bri.html)
By JO PIAZZA
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 1:22 PM

She's back and she's spilling the beans. No subject seems off-limits for Britney Spears as she begins the publicity tour for her new album "Circus" - not even her nasty split from ex-husband Kevin Federline.

For the first time since the pop singer filed for divorce in 2006, Britney is finally revealing that it was Kevin, not her, who was responsible for the demise for their marriage.

"I didn't think my husband was gonna leave me," she says in the latest issue of Rolling Stone magazine as she explains how her life didn't exactly turn out as she had planned.

And in a new fly-on-the-wall documentary for MTV "Britney: For the Record," airing Sunday night, Britney admits that her marriage to Federline was a mistake.

"I think I married for all the wrong reasons," Spears says in the teary interview. "Instead of following my heart and, like, doing something that made me really happy ... I just did it because ... for just, like, the idea of everything."

And she says things started to go south when Kevin started working on his own projects, including a rap album.

"That's when things got weird," she says.

But the new and improved Britney, with the help of a militant team of minders headed by her father Jamie Spears, seems to be moving on from that turbulent time in her life. She is even dipping her toes back into the dating pool for the first time since her controversial relationship with paparazzo Adnan Ghalib.

She has been on at least two dates recently, the singer says in Rolling Stone - both chaperoned by her staff.

Unfortunately it sounds like both guys struck out on date one.

The first was what Brit calls a "an older version of Harry Potter, but skinnier."

It was so bad that the singer ordered dessert first to get the date over with.

The second date was with a much older guy who was into martial arts.

"We're trying to ask him questions, like, "Ok, you're into martial arts, so what kind of martial arts are you into?" And he was like, 'Oh, all kinds.' But you know how silly we are, so we were just cracking up," Brit explains to the mag.

The new, post-breakdown Britney Spears seems to have finally gotten herself together. She looks happy and healthy and even wholesome, posing in jeans and a T-shirt on the mag's cover.

She admits that now she only sees Federline, who she refers to as "my babies' daddy," when the two are trading off the kids.

And Britney thinks her sons are picking up bad behavior from her ex. "It's weird cause they're starting to learn words like stupid and Preston says the F-word sometimes," Britney says.

Even though Britney seems candid in both interviews, both Rolling Stone and MTV have revealed that her father and managers rarely left her alone during the interview process and asked to vet questions beforehand.

We'll be seeing a lot more of Britney in the next couple of weeks. She is heading to Europe for the weekend to promote her new single "Womanizer." But she will return to the States on Dec. 2 when she will perform on "Good Morning America" on her 27th birthday.

uki

11-26-2008, 10:29 AM

some icons are walking around obsoletely in society... at any moment someone in your local supermarket, bank, gas station, or mall might be a simple ascended master, nonchalantly minding it's own business stirring up an energy flux... smiling the entire time at the chaos of it's passing. :D

Yum Cha

11-26-2008, 03:08 PM

Chuck Norris is approaching icon status I reckon.

Bruce Lee (look at da mOOOOn)

Kwai Chang Cane (why was he always walking barefoot when he had those shoes hanging from his swag?)

and perhaps blind "Master Po? (Grasshopper, you are puzzled?)
or his alter ego, Mister Miagie from Karate Kid?

Lucas

11-26-2008, 03:18 PM

Uki is a necromancer.

Ray Pina

11-26-2008, 07:07 PM

Lucas

11-26-2008, 07:37 PM

Awesome topic.

I think the gladiator is up there. How about the cowboy? And the indian?

The vietcong? The vietcong might be a stretch. But cowboys and indians were just as important to my childhood as Ninjas. Samurei's didn;t seem that exotic because I grew up in the Issin-Ryu tradition.

Oh, and Jedi's. I still want to be a Jedi.

I think every thing you mentioned, yes to one extent or another. I suppose it pretty much depends on where you are really and what you've come into contact with.

For me all of them pretty much. The vietcong not big, but a bit just from my parents generation being involved in that time period, movies etc...when i think of modern gorilla warfare, the vietcong do definately flash through my head. Tons of imagery we assimilate over our lives you know?

TenTigers

11-26-2008, 07:55 PM

The Biker-the modern version of the Cowboy, the Pirate, the American Indian.
The Biker rode an Iron Horse, had his own rules,valued brotherhood, honor, loyalty,Respect.
Of course the icon of the American Outlaw Biker are the Hells Angels.
Not going into the alleged criminal element, just the image.
Many clubs started out as a brotherhood of like-minded individuals, who shared a common bond-the love of motorcycles.

The other version is The loner on two-wheels.
"Then came Bronson" or "Renegade," or a dozen movies about the lone biker (usually a Viet Nam Vet) who came to the small town to find the corrupt sherriff, roughneck townies, and the pretty girl who works at the diner....

The Loner hero is another-played by everyone from Stallone, to Norris.

brothernumber9

11-26-2008, 08:03 PM

How 'bout Bruce F'n Lee. The "Elvis" of martial arts icons.

Hong Kong Fooey would come in second, followed closely by the original pink power ranger (but only barely nudging out Steve Chase).

Lucas

11-26-2008, 08:07 PM

the knight. lancelot, etc..

supermans an icon for sure and hes not even real. then you get into things that are mythical and it opens up a whole new bag. like dragons.

Lucas

11-26-2008, 08:08 PM

TenTigers

11-27-2008, 10:05 AM

easy rider
Different type of Biker. Captain America (Peter Fonda)embraced the freedom of the road, individuality,no ties, not part of the establishment, but at the same time a pot smoking youth, seeking his sense of self, while his friend, Billy(Dennis Hopper)was the paranoid, extremist, thrill-seeking,pill-popping, running away from himself. They weren't quite Hippies, and actually looked at the Hippies as being too extreme-in the sense that they were too comfortable in their own frredom.
East Rider was right at the peak of the Hippie era, and represented the awakening of the youth to the realization that all is not well and good if you just tune in, turn on, and drop out. That there is something more out there. Somewhere between the 9-5ers and the Hippies lied the answer. Balance.
Which brings us back to the middle path and Buddhism,Shaolin, and Gung-Fu.
(I think Peter Fonda's role-had he lived, would eventually been drawn to Martial Arts. Probably Tai-Chi)

taai gihk yahn

11-27-2008, 04:08 PM

Barney the Purple Dinosaur

bawang

11-27-2008, 04:42 PM

supreme grandmaster of almightniess colonel sanders

i think guan yu was a big kung fu archetype from way back. he was so famous general yue fei wanted to be like him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqseCRFx7k0

yenhoi

11-27-2008, 05:47 PM

We have modern peasant heroes/everyman-types: Cindarella Man/Rocky, Randy Couture, Early '90 Gracies... etc

:eek:

bakxierboxer

11-27-2008, 08:55 PM

(I think Peter Fonda's role-had he lived....

???????
You found an obituary somewhere?

TenTigers

11-27-2008, 10:46 PM

no, silly! I meant his character, Captain America. He was shot off his bike at the end.

bakxierboxer

11-27-2008, 11:07 PM

no, silly! I meant his character, Captain America. He was shot off his bike at the end.

???
Enh! I was an original "anti-hippie" and didn't watch that flic until sometime in the last 15 years... and, even then, I could only stand about 15 minutes of it. (at most)

I guess it was "fortunate" that character got killed off, otherwise there would've been a sequel. :rolleyes:

TenTigers

11-27-2008, 11:27 PM

SimonM

11-28-2008, 06:46 AM

Most films don't need sequels. They just make them anyway.

For example: X-Men 3

bakxierboxer

11-28-2008, 10:05 PM

yep. Some films don't need a sequel. Like, "Deliverance." Who wants to see Ned Beatty going back to his job, walkin in all bowlegged, and sitting on a rubber donut.
Funny thing, you didn't really see Ned Beatty in any films for quite awhile, until Superman. It must suk being typecasted.

A bit of a turn-about from his first inclination to be a member(?) of the clergy.
His early literacy is open to question, since he changed his mind and decided to become a "thespian".

Ray Pina

11-29-2008, 09:50 PM

sanjuro_ronin

12-01-2008, 09:38 AM

OK. SO of all these "types" which is the ideal?

I'd have to say for a man my age it should be, what was his name, Kwan Yin? Obi-Wan's master?

Centered. Determined in his ways.

Later in life, Yoda seems more ideal. At peace with what is. Not trying to force change.

Actually, the problem with Yoda was has reluctence to accept that the dark side MUST exist in harmony with the light side, and in that, even he was flawed and "short sighted".

GeneChing

01-23-2019, 09:36 AM

Follow the link to see the vid. Vimeo isn't embedding properly here. :(

Mountain Monks on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/311714692)

The Yamabushi in northern Japan practice a once forbidden ancient religion. While their tradition is at risk of disappearing, it offers a way for those seeking a different path in Japan‘s society.

Walking barefoot through rivers, meditating under waterfalls and spending the nights on mountaintops - that is the way of the Yamabushi. They walk into the forest to die and be born again.

Their teachings of Shugendō 修験道 were first established 1400 years ago and peaked in popularity during the 17th century, when Yamabushi visited around 90 percent of all villages in northern Japan. The monks were said to have magical powers and served as advisors to samurai and warlords.

In the late 19th century, when Japan opened itself to the west and moved from a feudal state towards industrialization, their religion was forbidden. Only the monks of Yamagata prefecture in northern Japan practiced the tradition in secret. Their isolation near the three holy mountains of Dewa helped them to save their customs.

Today, their religion is not forbidden anymore, but there aren't many left who practice it either. Some schools have opened their doors to allow women and foreigners. They offer private courses to help maintain their sacred places:
yamabushido.jp/

I don't remember saying this, but it does sound like me. And the mention of Yamabushi is what made me post this here.

Something that Gene said on one of my other threads made me think about this. He stated that one of the reasons Shaolin monks are placed on a pedestal is because they are iconic. He said that there really aren't many martial icons out there. Ninjas, Samurai, and Shaolin monks are pretty much the order of the day. I'd agree that these are perhaps the most well known icons but I'm trying to think of others and breaking down those three icons. In a sense, these icons can be described as archetypes. They embody certain philosophies and represent a way of life. I think that many people today are disappointed with Shaolin monks because they don't necessarily fit on the pedestal that people create. It is also important to remember that in the past Shaolin monks, or any of those icons, did not always fit the bill either. What are some of your thoughts on this topic? What other martial icons/archetypes can you think of? I'll start out. I'll break down the Samurai icon into the fiercely independent ronin and the loyal vassal. Another icon I'll throw in there is the Yamabushi and the Wudang priest.