Shou Shu - real or another made-up melange?

[Syre]

I just came across this form called Shou Shu (see http://www.mooresshoushu.com/) which makes all kinds of claims:



<blockquote>Our mission is to carry on the traditions of the most complete fighting art in the world, Shou Shu. We teach a pure martial art which has not been altered from it's true fighting traditions. Shou Shu is the fighting art of the Mandarin warlords who have been the ruling class throughout China's history. It is a rare art mostly unheard of in the typical histories written on martial arts. There are several reasons for this. The first, it was only taught to the eldest son of a Mandarin warlord. In this way it's secrets were kept closely guarded. It is an extremely powerful and sophisticated system which was considered a true treasure to those who trained in it. For this reason it was closely guarded and still is. Secondly, to be called Shou Shu it must have all seven animal systems. There are actually seven systems taught. Each of these systems is a martial art in themselves. Each is based on one of the seven fighting beasts. These are the bear (xiong ) , the tiger (hu ) , the mongoose(you ), the white crane(ba he ), the praying mantis (tang , the cobra (fu) , and the imperial dragon (long ). When these seven systems are combined only then may it rightfully be called Shou Shu. There are many systems out there which teach one or two of these fighting beasts and go by another name.
</blockquote>




The question is, is this real or another bogus one? Here's some of its supposed history, from a forum on that site (http://mooresshoushu.com/board/viewthread.phtml?FID=6&TID=13):


<blockquote>When Da' Shifu was a boy, he lived in the bay near Chine Town (I can't remember which one right now). At that time the Chinese didn't have much in the way of police protection and they were targets for criminals. A man was sent from Chine by the name of Lu Chin (spelling?) This man was a Da' Shifu. Being a time of peril, it was decided that Lu Chin would teach the Chinese people in the area so that they could protect themselves from criminals. Da' Shifu's best friend was Jimmy Chin who was Lu Chin's Grandson. Da' Shifu was invited to study.

After WWII, Da' Shifu then went to Chine to complete his education. He studied in what he said was like a college. This was in the town of Tinsin, now called TianJian. Each of the masters specialized in an individual beast.

I doubt that Shou Shu has been evolved from any of the modern arts. I would think of the evolution of the martial arts a little differently. For the most part they all originated in Egypt. At that time they were probably very basic. Lots of wrestling. They were then further developed in India. Eventually they made their way to China. I'm sure that along the way there were many different schools of thought. Each of these broke off and formed their own art. Each evolving in their own way. This is why if you compare some of the things that you see in other arts to Shou Shu, you can see some similarities but they are very far removed.
</blockquote>





Hmm.. here's a picture of their chief master "Da Shifu" (the shifu? as in "Da Mayor"?) http://www.mooresshoushu.com/dashifu.shtml


I dunno... seems fishy, but maybe someone here knows one way or the other.

[jameswebsteruk]

Hmmm.

I dont really buy the idea that only the eldest son was ever taught the style. That means that out of one generation, only one person ever learnt the style? Then he taught it to his son?

Plus whats with the idea that all martial arts came from Egypt? Hell, every single country, however far back has a history of wars, and armies, standing or drafted, so this seems a bit of a sweeping statement.

The Egyptians have probably the oldest civilisation that we know of, but that doesnt follow that they therefore invented MA.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[JasBourne]

This guy bill himself as the "Imperial Dragon". Ummm, isn't that like a Klan title?

http://www.mooresshoushu.com/images/shifu/shun_shifu_clark.jpg

Anyway, I don't know about their kungfu, but they shure had a grrrreat time wif all da different spellins fer common CMA terms (sifu=shifu, kwoon=quan, etc) and they sure are frantically franchising the beejesus out of the whole thing!

[Raffi]

they also had a link to their 'fitness videos' based on Shoushu, which went to this website -

http://karaticise.com/

yikes! Me thinks the question has been answered...


-Raffi

[Shaolin36]

Heres an idea,
The people of this board are pretty educated in CMA/MA pretty well. So
1) If no one has heard of this guy that has to tell you his reputation.
2)Any long lost fighting art that has'nt been around long enough to go through hundreds/thousands of people testing this and becoming famous in some way related to the art (i.e. forms,weapons or fighting)proves that it may have once been, but it did not last in its entirety due to its lack of something somewhere.

Just some deductive reasoning thoughts!

Shaolin36

[lkfmdc]

Here's a real concrete way to go about this, what the heck is "Shou Shu"? In Mandarin one might assume it means "Hand Art" but not only does that sound darn goffy, it isn't correct Mandarin either really. It sure isn't Cantonese dialect.

And here it gets funny. I said this somewhere before (maybe here? maybe on mixedmartialarts.com) and someone, maybe a student of this guy, told me "it's Shanghaiese"

Well, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my wife is Shanghaiese and I can tell you that this is not Shanghaiese.

I always get a kick out of people who don't speak Asian languages naming systems. My personal favorite are people who mix Japanese and Chinese words together, after all those are both just Asian languages, they can be mixed together after all (that is sarcasm for those who don't realize)

Ever heard of the infamous art of Atemi Chi Do? Another guy names his method "the gangster school". And of coures there was "the school of the bisexual"

[Kung Lek]

say, does this have anything at all to do with that infamous "hamster" style I keep hearing about? hahahahahahahahahaha.

school of the bisexual? that's pretty rich Ross :D
Would love to watch the Chinese folk walk by that school averting their gazes madly! :)

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Lost_Disciple]

Started a similar thread on the Mantis forum after reading this one. I've gotten at least one reply that says the form filmed here: http://www.kungfuaerobics.com/ra/Shifu_volpendesta.mpg is a 7 star mantis broadsword form.

So either these guys are just doing a little bit of false advertizing- because 7 Star mantis is not a manchu style. Or else, they're not beyond blatant pilfering.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/4_3/images/gk1.jpg
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[GLW]

The current issue of MA PRO (I have NO idea how they got me on their mailing list nor even how I was given a subscription...I never paid for it....) has a guy writing about approaches to things and he relays a story about Sun Tzu...but refers to Sun as talking about the TSUBA of the sword and other such things that are PURE JAPANESE in origin...as opposed to Sun Tzu being the Grandfather of Chinese War Strategy...

go figure.

[Syre]

Where did you find that video on their site? I can see no link to it from anywhere.

[lkfmdc]

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The samurai of feudal Japan used to carry the "dai sho" or "dai ken (big sword) and sho ken (little sword)". Someone thought it would be cool to have the "house of Dai Sho" or "Dai Sho Kan". Sadly, in modern Japanese slang, "Dai Sho" can also mean bisexual :)

[blaktiger]

Just an FYI - Martial arts did originate in Ancient Egypt.

A set of instructions for what we would now call Kata were found on the walls of pyramids in the Valley of the Kings. It was mostly a grappling art. This theory was verified by The History Channel's documentary on Martial Arts, hosted by Wesley Snipes.

Since Greece occupied Egypt at some point in history, you can see how the progression of martial arts to China may have happened: Greece to India to China to Japan/Okinawa/Korea etc. Most likely the earliest form of chinese art, which we have kicked around for a bit on this board was Shui (sp) Chiao - a brutal grappling art visually similar to GR wrestling.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[Waidan]

Oh, well if Wesley Snipes says so...:)


Saying MA "originated" anywhere is silly. MA originated wherever one human wanted to kill another. Which, history tells us, is pretty much everywhere.

[kungfuyou]

Well, I used to be a student of Shou Shu, until I was informed of the fact that it is actually Chinese Kenpo. He puts it off as Kung Fu. That film is from one of their camps that they have twice a year were all the schools get together for a weekend outting at Master Moore's place in the foothills. You pay like $55 for all weekend. You bring clothes, sleeping bag and tent, and all you do all day long is practice. They break you up into your belt rankings and practice forms and technique. Only Moore's students are allowed to go. Family is invited, and food is provided.

Didn't really care for the style. One of the shifu's said that Moores' son was a black sash in Hung Ga and said all the stances were in practical and bad for your posture. As well as not practical for self Defense. They definitely promote compitition.

As far as weapons forms go. I asked one of the shifu's there and he said that weapon's are impractical, and they don't really teach them. Even though they have all of them in a room. He puts on workshops every once in a while. Takes traditional forms, and makes them practical for everyday use.

I took about 4 lessons and quite. They don't let you come and watch a class if your not a student. So if your interested, you have to pay $20 for 4 half hour lessons. Once you do that, they get you to sign a years contract, ranging from $85 a month, that includes something like 1 class a week, and one one hour private session with a shifu or black belt. He has about 4 or 5 schools in Northern Cali as far as I know.

That's all I know about it.

[neptunesfall]

I am the Grand Ultimate Mongoose.

[Lost_Disciple]

Syre
On the navigation bar on the right, at the bottom is a fist- that's a link to the video clips; almost 100 of 'em. Shifu Volpendesta is towards the bottom.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/4_3/images/gk1.jpg
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[thekuntawman]

i usually dont bad mouth people, and this time i am not bad mouth them.

the story is bull****, they are teaching kenpo with a fancy name. they teach people only how to kill and cripple, and they dont do tournaments unless they are death match. so i offered a death match division and the guy still decline because he didnt want his boys going to prison. (not a jake, its a real conversation we had).

unless you like to throw away your money, dont go and waste your time. :D

[Syre]

So is it Kenpo? Is it made up? Is it something else?

Is everyone agreed that it isn't a pure, complete MA from China?

What's up with the "college" where each master specialized in one beast? Was there any such place?

If it's not true, how can people get away with making all these claims?

[GLW]

Enough of the idea that MARTIAL ARTS originated from (fill in the blank)

EVERY place that has had man has had some method of martial activity.

Go back to cave dwellers. They fought and hunted.

First came the dance that was a re-enactment of the hunt or the re-enactment of the battle. Over time, these dances became stylized. They would then do them before a hunt or before a battle.

Then, over time, they began to notice that such things could be used to train the hunters and warriors in the tribe in how to hunt and fight. It is a natural progression and virtually EVERY community of man has done it.

First or last...who cares. It is HUMAN. Each culture takes what it has and makes it their own. Recorded human history goes back some 6000 years. People migrated...is it really that unusual to see ideas that are common or ideas that started in one place and ended up in many. To look for the oldest records of an item is the field of historians and archeologists. To cloud the issue with ethnic or cultural pride...a waste of time. Just my two cents worth...

On the topic here though....
Shou Shu....Shou Me.... Never heard of it in 25 years....

[bustr]

"A set of instructions for what we would now call Kata were found on the walls of pyramids in the Valley of the Kings. It was mostly a grappling art. This theory was verified by The History Channel's documentary on Martial Arts, hosted by Wesley Snipes."

The Pyramids? I've heard this before. I read about it in "War With Empty Hands" by Lennox Cramer but the only MA reference that I've been able to find from ancient Egypt is the famous tomb paintings at Beni-Hassan that show wrestlers. I haven't been able to find anything on the pyramid decorations that show MA. Do you know of any website that cover this?

[Syre]

see my new topic, "egyptian martial arts"

[jameswebsteruk]

I agree with Waidan, but it depends on how you define martial arts.

Humans have always wrestled, humans have always fought with and without tools. To claim that the Egyptians invented fighting or conflict is clearly ridiculous, but I doubt that is what you are saying.

If you are defining Martial Arts as predominantly Eastern, then maybe they have their roots in China, before that India, and possibly before that, Egypt. But I dont think it follows. Tribes of humans in China, for example, would have developed their own fighting skills, passed down through the generations thousands of years before the Shaolin temple was around, with its possible Indian connection.

People fight. Along the way some people might codify their skills in written form, or in paintings. Others dont, preferring oral and hands on teaching.

So, it is indeed possible that the earliest depiction of wrestling or fisticuffs is Egyptian, but that does not imply that it was invented by Egyptians.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[GLW]

Frank...

Great line at the bottom...Not many people remember that old Danny Kaye movie....The Court Jester....great one too....

[jameswebsteruk]

GLW,

Your right. I loved it as a kid, but only seen it twice. I just like the way it rhymes. And I thought that the main character was Bob Hope until I finally looked it up.

Frank

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[smogwax]

Hello All,
I have been studying Shou Shu for a little over 2 years now. I do not know cantonese or mandarin, but I do know that Da' Shifu (that is how we refer to our grand master) did train in China, I also know he trained with Ed Parker among others. As for history I can not say, I do know that what I have learned works and I can see the difference in our art from others, and some similarities. There is a post which links to a video file of one of our Shifu's (black belt or sifu to most) doing a mantis form. This form is an interpretation of a Brandon Li form, this is not a Shou Shu form but is done using Shou Shu motion. We have about 15 studios in the central valley of California. Our oldest school still open is in Lodi, which has been there for 25 years. I do not know about any "deathmatch" and I am not a black belt but I would be willing to work out with any one from the area to do a little light sparring. Of course, this would be for mutual learning purposes I do not wish to challenge anyone to prove anything. I enjoy my art and enjoy learning how I can more effectively use my art in all situations. My primary concern in training is the effectiveness of the training not necessarily the documented history. Most martial arts were handed down through training as opposed to books so this does not concern me. In reference to the Karaticise site, that is an aerobic work out not a martial art and does not apply to this forum. As I have said I am a student of Shou Shu I do not speak for Shou Shu but I am happy to share my experience.
Regards,
Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[soy]

should be called he-yuck fu..

Not to start a flame war or anything. But anyone who studies this fraudulant crap is getting totally ripped off. I'm not as concerned with the efectiveness of the art. But judging by the way it is priced, and the emphasis on belts.. This is not the real thing. Perhaps for some people this is their only option, but in any case. I'd suggest that you go elsewhere for training.

Etc etc..

and that karatisize stuff is absolute ass too. those people are:

Not breathing

Not aware of their limbs

Not even working up a sweat

Thus it is neither arobic, or does it have any relation to kung fu.

Morons. All of them.

Gah!

[This message was edited by soy on 10-30-01 at 11:13 AM.]

[smogwax]

I do not believe that there is an emphasis on belts. What makes you believe that? The cost of our studio is comparable to any other that allows you to go in and study 10 hours a day, so I do not have issue with the money.
As you choose to not concern yourself with the effectiveness of the art then I guess we agree to disagree, thank you for your point of view.
~regards

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

added after the fact:
Again Karaticise is aerobics not a martial art. Just like the many other aerobic programs offered by people paying rent for their studio space, plus all excercise is good in my opinion (being that I am a desk jockey during the day)

[This message was edited by smogwax on 10-30-01 at 11:42 AM.]

[shunshifuw]

Hello, this will be my first and last post to this forum. I am a busy man and as I am sure my post will be met with much discussion I would rather spend my spare time practicing my mongoose (something you will never have the opportunity to know or see ) than arguing what is to me a mute point. I cannot prove the validity of the art that I study and teach on a forum, nor can you disprove it. I will not spend the hours it would need to explain our history.Much of this history is not even known by our own students, why should we discuss it with you.

Soy, I notice that your profile does not tell us your city of residence.

Stealing is not a quality I would attribute to a martial artist. Please do not steal my pictures or plagiarize my website.

I have spent many years training in Shou Shu. In my early years, my curiosity got to me and I spent much time investigating other arts. I went to tournaments, demonstrations, attended classes and took it to the streets. I have now decided that this is a waste of my time. Now they come to me and I try to be as polite as possible but I show them the way. I can imagine how hard it is for people who have trained all of their lives to realize that they have wasted their time.

The secrets of Shou Shu are not seen unless you have Eyes for them. In investigating other arts it is obvious to me that most of the things that they do have origins in something useful and real. However they are ussually so diluted to be innefective. Most forms of kung fu have lost the why and the truth although it is there hidden. You , most likely do not know what you are looking at. It is not your fault, it has been lost in most arts.

I'm afraid that one cannot explain the sea to a well frog.

Although, typically, while looking at most forms of KF, I do see some degree of chi. Unfortunately, it is not focused. Herien lies the first of the basic flaws, there are more. But I am not your teacher.

We promote a video called Cardio Karaticise not to sell martial arts, you cannot learn it from a book or video. Even learning the exercise is not entirely possible from a video. We do it because the flowing focussed energy is of benfit to many. Especially those who need a workout which will not stress the back and joints. It does not look like much of a workout but that again is very decieving. Done somewhat properly it is one of the most intense on the market. I in know way see this as selling out. We do not and never will, sell our art on video. Nearly any art can be bought in that way and we refuse to do it.

Yes, we do some of the Kempo techniques, but as someone on this forum has already stated, the technique is not the art. The technique is the most basic level of learning. It is only a starting point.

As far as the question of price goes. Im not sure what the question is. Are we to low. If so I agree. If our students really paid for what they got in our studios not many could afford it. However, as we see the benefit it brings to people, especially families, we like to make it available to them. Excuse us for giving such a deal.

If my Da' shifu were to one day come to me and say that the history was all a lie. He got the art from a magic gumball machine or made it up. I would inly train harder in it. For then I would consider him more of a genius than I already do. It has saved my life and the lives of others too.

As far as the sword form goes. Brandon Lei (sp?) taught that to us. Really, as with most of that a bit to showy for our taste. The way he constantly says "Charisma, charisma " What has that got to do with fighting. I don't understand. Some of our shifu's have converted it to our motion. I saw that one of the posts noticed this. It is different, he has taken out the flashy BS.

We have had other Masters come to teach us also. We alwys find that they have litlle or nothing to teach. ASk a certain Swai Chou (sp?) master who was bested on his own terms at his own art by one of our junior black belts after a seminar on the topic.

Masters have flown from China and Japan to study from Da' Shifu. He is knowledgeable enough to corect them in their own arts and I have seen this.

I am sorry that you train without seeing. It is unfortunate that most of you will spend your life learning an art which has lost it's fighting ability over the years. I'm certain that at one time in history it was taught well, else it would not still exist.

Shou Shu has worked for me with extreme efficiency. I have been attacked on the street by multiple opponents ( 8 on 2 ) who had weapons and meant to do me great harm. They were hospitalized and I'm sure many have injuries which will never heal properly. I am sorry for that but my life was threatened. I am thankful for my abilities.
Now as I am sure I will be flamed repetetively, have at it and enjoy yourselves

Shun Shifu Phil Weaver
3061 W. Hwy 12
Burson, CA 95225
www.mooresshoushu.com (http://www.mooresshoushu.com)

Check out the first soft style kung fu based martial art aerobic program
http://www.karaticise.com

[MonkeySlap Too]

Okay,
I'm game. Who was the Shuai Chiao 'master'?

You know, that all sounds very impressive, but I've heard the same thing from a lot of groups that look and sound like yours.

However, that doesn't automatically discount you in my eyes. What is Shou Shu (sp?) similar to? Does it share principles with any of the main 'streams' of CMA? Is it Long Fist derived? Hakka style? Like Hebei arts? What is your Qigong like?

Just curious.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Syre]

Shifu Weaver,

I want to say that I certainly didn't mean to offend you or your school by starting this thread. You seem like a sincere and dedicated practitioner of your art.

I appreciate your idea of focusing the chi and of a soft style being very effective.

I just never heard of Shou Shu before, and the history on the web site and in your forum seemed vague to me. I think what made me sceptical and is making others here sceptical perhaps is this vagueness as to where the form originated and what the lineage was.

I know don't need to prove anything, but this is what I was curious about.

Thanks!

[gfhegel21]

The clips are embarassing.

What the hell are those people doing?

I'm sorry, but you've got to call a spade a spade: that website is crap. Maybe the website doesn't reflect the style, but we can only judge based on what they present. Maybe they can fight, but you would never know it from those clips. In fact, those clips suggest exactly the opposite.

[jameswebsteruk]

The following is not a flame, but a genuine desire for clarification on your statements.


>> Masters have flown from China and Japan to study from Da' Shifu. He is knowledgeable enough to corect them in their own arts and I have seen this. <<

Which masters? When? What styles? Any evidence to back up these claims? Would they agree, if asked, that they were "corrected in their own arts"?

>> It is unfortunate that most of you will spend your life learning an art which has lost it's fighting ability over the years. <<

Tell that to Wong Shun Leung, just one of many.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Where are the clips? I wanna see them.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[gfhegel21]

They are large in size.

Go here:
http://www.mooresshoushu.com/

Then click on the fist on the right.

[smogwax]

Hey, I read your last post and I do not believe that you indented any mischief so no worries.
There will always be people sitting back in their chairs and critiquing everything, think of all those couch football players that come out every Sunday and Monday night to tell all those professional what they are doing wrong. Heh heh, kind funny when I think about. Anyhow. History was never the focus of our training and nothing has ever been written down, but I am sure if you got the 500 or more (actually many more) shou shu black belts together to share everything that Da Shifu has told them and the things they have experienced that you could nail the history down. Personally I think Da Shifu enjoys teaching more than he does worrying about all of this "political" rhetoric. As for others who choose to speak negatively of these "demo" videos I say let them show theirs and we can have a true discourse on the positives and negatives of both sides. Otherwise, I will keep my eye open for people such as yourself Syre who are truly students seeking to learn as I am.
Regards,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[kungfuyou]

I don't know if it's just me or not, but I have a hard time believing what ONE man says, without any kind of proof to back it up. Not to say that Shou Shu is made up, but the fact that no one REALLY knows except for "Da Shifu", makes me too skeptical.
It's true, martial arts is more than just the history that's behind a particular style, but it's another thing to claim its validity and claim that its one thing, and it's actually something else. Not that Shou Shu is doing this. I'm sure it really is an effective art. But going to the few lessons that I did, some things taught didn't make sense to me. But I'm no "master" to contridict it and say it is ineffective. It just wasn't right for me.

Just some ramblings from someone who is learning something new. :D

[Braden]

Smog - what principles do you follow in your movement and practice to emphasize qi development?

[gfhegel21]

If you want to see videos of people who can fight, check the clips at www.sherdog.com (http://www.sherdog.com) or www.ufc.tv (http://www.ufc.tv) or the photos at www.dogbrothers.com (http://www.dogbrothers.com). Additionally, check out www.sanshou.org (http://www.sanshou.org) or
http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index.html
for info about the Chinese fighting arts.

All this "wave your arms in the air and the bad guy falls down dead" stuff is a joke as far as fighting goes.

If it's just for demonstration, check out the various clips on the web of wushu demonstration teams. They do the same thing, only a lot better.

[smogwax]

gfhegel21,
Thank You but I have seen most of those video's I was refering to video's of your school or of you not to general UFC fights on the web. Those are interesting but we have our own UFC fights here in California also, they make more sense live :)

kungfuyou,
Hmm, too bad you did not have the patience for Shou Shu. I have heard many people say that after a couple lessons they wanted to be able to know more. A lot of people at the Shamrock school in Lodi California have said similar things to me in passing. One thing is for sure is that Shou Shu takes time to master.

Braden,
We follow the motion princilpes of the 7 beasts we study (bear, tiger, mongoose, crane, mantis, cobra, dragon). We also break those down into individual beast but Shou Shu as a whole is the unique combination of all seven.

Regards,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[Braden]

Smog - could you elaborate please?

I also study an art which some call 'soft-style,' some say emphasizes qi development, and some say differs from the other comparable arts in related issues.

However, there are many specific and concrete ways in which this is true, which I could explain even to someone with no experience in it or similar arts. For example, there are certain postural requirements which we follow. Certain requirements also for movement. Also, certain ways in which we train different reflexes than other arts - which I could elaborate upon at length.

If you would like to hear about them, I will glady share my impressions. I am most certainly interested in the specifics that sets your art apart from others, and the specifics of practice that makes you think your art is 'soft style' or emphasizes qi.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shun Sifu Weaver said:
<<I would rather spend my spare time practicing my mongoose [something you will never have the opportunity to know or see ) >>

Well, after observing the vids, I think 'practicing the mongoose' refers to something that causes blindness and hairy palms. I don't think any of us want to watch.

Pretty basic stuff, not 'real' kung fu. Devoid of fundamental principles. Reminds of a lot of the pseudo-Shaolin schools I'd found around Chicago land.

But I could be wrong on some points - these are obvious demos meant to entertain, and they did say they were a combat school, so maybe this is all show.

I have to admire thier business model. Pretty good for commercial schools.

Without meeting them first hand, I'll reserve any observations beyond that.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[MonkeySlap Too]

I don't know what happened to my last post.

The quote from SSW was: I would rather spend my spare time practicing my mongoose (something you will never have the opportunity to know or see )

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Alvar]

Cardio Karatise Shou Shu...
"Only $100 for the complete series" :eek: :confused: :mad:

[smogwax]

Alvar,
Shou Shu is not Cardio Karaticise, they are two different things, you do know the difference between Martial Arts and an Aerobics Workout. and the cardio vid is only 30 bucks

MonkeySlap Too,
I highly doubt Shun Shifu Weaver will post here again. Then again if I ran a school I wouldn't either... *shrug*

Braden,
I think our art uses both Hard and Soft. Hard being the Direct Linear Re-enforcement of weapons, like a basic rams head punch (we all know that). I think of hard as using my motion to attack my target, when I think of soft I think of the target getting trapped within my motion. We also use stances and body alignment and reaction training. Each of our beasts have a different body motion or priciple they follow and we apply all of these together. Flow is a very big thing for us, the seemless trasition from one beast to another or the application of different beasts together, where they make sense. Please email mail me and we can discuss more further.

gfhegel21,
Do you study some form of martial art? If so what are you studying?

Disclaimer:
I am a dedicated student willing to share my own personal experience, I do not speak for shou shu.

Regards,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[This message was edited by smogwax on 11-01-01 at 02:49 PM.]

[gfhegel21]

Preface: my opinion on shoe shoe is based on comments here on this board and the Moore's shoe shoe web page (including the clips and forums). Perhaps there are super tough shoe shoe guys out there, but you certainly wouldn't know it from the web page.

The reason I pointed you to those clips because watching them is a good start toward understanding why those demos are a vast waste of time if you want to learn about fighting. Information about NHB and other full-contact events are useful because we can all watch them; you do not need to rely on anecdotal accounts of how so and so beat 8 people up with his shoe shoe kung fu.

I am not currently training, although I do not see how this is relevant. I trained for 5 or so years in Shi-Toh Ryu and Shotokan karate, a year of kickboxing (including some Muay Thai), 2.5 years Judo. I did a summer in a "NHB" type school (muay thai, silat, kali/escrima), with a sadistic instructor. When I finish my degree, I will resume Judo and add Muay Thai/Brazilian ju jutsu locally (there is a school nearby that teaches both in an integrated fashion, along with Kali/Eskrima/Arnis).

The reason why I do not think it is relevant is because people like you and your instructor have been seen here before. You talk about how powerful your style is and how it's the best at everything (and make no mistake, your instructor bagged on everybody else's style in his brief visit to this board). Yet where are the great fighters produced by your school? It doesn't take an expert to recognize that something is wrong with this picture ...

That leads to the next response: our style has too many lethal and illegal techniques to be allowed to compete. This topic has been covered again and again, although we can get into it again if you want (I will be back on the internet tomorrow). Although it's not been settled, many people seem to agree that if you can't win within the rules the a true NHB event, such as UFC or World Vale Tudo Championships allows, it's unlikely that adding back in your killing techniques is going to make the difference.

If your top guys could walk through the competition in a NHB style event, there would be a lot of money in it, both for an individual, and for the style as a whole (see Rorion Gracie for an example of what that sort of promotion can do for a style).

[smogwax]

gfhegel21,
Actually, we did not come here saying anything. Someone from this forum starting bagging on our studio with out knowing what they were talking about and I decided to sign up and defend something that I believe in. Shun Shifu Weaver felt the need to make a blanket statement telling all those who started the thread what he thought of them and any one who would attempt to judge our art. You don't want to here it, then you should not have started it. I believe it is irresponsible to put down any art in the first place.

NHB is good experience, But I do not train to compete I train to learn, I also spar to learn. I am not interested in making big money in fighting, I am a programmer and I make plenty of money at what I am doing with out showing that I can take a punch on a regular basis. There are many underground NHB fights one can attend and if one so chooses. An agent will pick you if you are good. Not interested, nothing to do with anything other than I am not interested. Maybe a fight once in a while for practice but that is all.

It matters if you train because that changes your perspective on other arts. I also go to school full time while working a web development job full time and I always find time to train and I always will that is my level of commitment.

What it comes down to is, if you do not train then I can not learn from you, so I am not interested in further debate.
Regards,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[Braden]

Smog - I was more looking for specifics. For example, you say you emphasize posture - but what posture? How specifically do you train it? My email is in my profile if you want to contact me privately.

Although in truth, I was less interested personally with your style and more interested with providing a rational means by which you and others can defend your claims. If you have legitimate martial or physical knowledge, then you should be able to share some of it, even across so limited a medium as this.

[smogwax]

Braden,

Thank You for your honesty, but I do not need to defend our training specifics as no one has brought up any except for your general topic to which you are not interested. Most have made bold comments based on personal bias; I do appreciate your even demeanor though. It is so easy to venture into self-righteousness on anonymous forums.

Train Hard,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[Braden]

smog - I don't have any opinions one way or another regarding your style. I think the history is blatantly fictional, which is the primary reason your martial art is being critiqued. However, the history really doesn't imply anything about the art.

I would just rather see a) People defend their arts with specifics, thus demonstrating that they do have some knowledge, and b) People critiquing with reference to these specifics. Such an approach, I believe, is always more enjoyable and productive both for the participants and the readers, than the approach we see here and most elsewhere.

[gfhegel21]

Whatever. If you're happy with it, then no one has any business trying to pull you down. I hope it turns out to be everything you believe it will be.

[friday]

regardless of what style that form is from it looks ok.

Never heard of Shou Shu but doesn't mean its not good.

If the big sifu has made up the history behind it then he is a fraud and a lier. I doubt anyone can check the validity of this style except perhaps a historian. If its real great if its not...i disrespect dishonesty. I would like to find out more information about this style from an independent source.

regards,

888

[smogwax]

Thank You All,

My only intention on this forum is to stop blatant bashing of my art, that is why I signed up and will not be posting once this thread dies. I do appreciate all of your time and effort.

On a side note: History has always been manipulated to the needs of the predominant people. Look at our own American history books and how they down played the plight of American Indians and slaves for years, only now is the government and school systems acknowledging that anything happen at all. Likewise my Grand Master was an American in China when the communist ousted all of the Americans and stopped martial training as best they could. All history we have now is underground word of mouth and temples. The Chinese government spent a large amount of money attempting to alter that history; luckily for all of us they did not succeed. We cannot at the same time deny the impact of such sweeping actions. I have spoken with some of the Old Timers and they know, go to golden gate park and speak with some of the elderly masters who were there, then you will know. At least you will know the history according to that master, they all intersect at points.

If any body knows of a credible source of Martial History I would be interested in reading it. Of course I would be looking for an unbiased history, (for example) a history by the Shaolin temple would be biased. The problem with martial history is the family nature of it all. I read my own family history book and this becomes evident to me. I can trace my name back hundreds of years into Prussia and beyond and all of my 15 generations of American history on both sides but have you ever heard of Frolkey? I can guarantee you that anyone who spells their name that way is my relative but if I showed you the history books would you think it was real, or would I have to be rich an successful in order to be able top trace my American lineage back to Salem. Hell, the government in Massachusetts only this week acknowledges the wrong they did to my maternal Great Grandmother. I have been telling people for years the story of my Great Grandmother and they all thought I was crazy. But after this weeks announcement about the wrongs done to innocent women in Salem, I have suddenly had people come to me and say “oh, you were serious,� History?? Interesting word but that is all to me.

Thank you for your time,

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[Alvar]

"you do know the difference between Martial Arts and an Aerobics Workout"

Sure, I do! ;)

[smogwax]

alvar,
Cool, me too ;)

Eric Ô¿Ô¬

[shoushu]

I don't do this style called 'Shou Shu', but thought this statement made here early in this thread needed some clarification:


Here's a real concrete way to go about this, what the heck is "Shou Shu"? In Mandarin one might assume it means "Hand Art" but not only does that sound darn goffy, it isn't correct Mandarin either really. It sure isn't Cantonese dialect.

I think the writer of these words should go back to study some more Chinese. Shoushu is the standard mandarin word for surgery. its not 'goofy' and it is absolutely correct mandarin.

Just something to think about.

[NorthernMantis]

How did this get by me?


>> Masters have flown from China and Japan to study from Da' Shifu. He is knowledgeable enough to corect them in their own arts and I have seen this. <<

What masters are those?

[Akuma]

Well my cousin does shou shu and says that he has found it to be much better/practical than the karate classes he was attending previously.

He also said that it's definitely not kenpo...but I dunno : /

[turbo76]

:)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by shoushu
I don't do this style called 'Shou Shu', but thought this statement made here early in this thread needed some clarification:

perhaps i'm reading this wrong. you don't do shoushu. but your username is 'shoushu.' and in your profile, under style practiced, it says 'shoushu.'

what am i missing here?


Just something to think about.

you ain't kidding.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

smogwax,

i feel for you. you seem like a decent guy. and it's only natural that you'd want to defend your choice of a martial art. can't blame you for that. besides, you aren't worried about the history. you're worried about the effectiveness of it. and none of us can really debate that without experiencing it. so power to you.

that said, master phil's contribution makes me very leery of this style and school. i'm sorry.


On a side note: History has always been manipulated to the needs of the predominant people.

are you okay with that? personally, i wouldn't be. a certain amount of distortion is to be expected. but the more deliberate that distortion becomes, the less it's to be accepted. the quotes on this site seem deliberately and directedly distorted to benefit da'shifu. and that makes it suspect to me.

again, i respect your need to defend your school. but i'm going to have to agree that something doesn't smell right.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Hello, this will be my first and last post to this forum. I am a busy man and as I am sure my post will be met with much discussion I would rather spend my spare time practicing my mongoose (something you will never have the opportunity to know or see ) than arguing what is to me a mute point.

1) excellent. disappearing afterward circumvents the pesky need to address any questions, comments, or concerns that might arise from these discussions. handy, that.

2) "something you will never have the opportunity to know or see" good grief. how old are you? this sounds precisely like, "i'm taking my ball and going home." why bother chiming in at all if you're going to say things like this and then bugger off?

3) it's a moot point.


I cannot prove the validity of the art that I study and teach on a forum, nor can you disprove it. I will not spend the hours it would need to explain our history.Much of this history is not even known by our own students, why should we discuss it with you.

you're right that you can't really convince anyone of the validity of your art over the internet. but that doesn't mean you can't substantiate history. history is argued over such media all the time. surely you're capable of citing sources, etc. over the internet.

"i will not spend the hours... " ah. here we go then. it's not that the medium makes it impossible. you just aren't willing. and that's fine. you don't really owe us anything. but call a spade a spade.

much of the history isn't even known to the students. so why should you tell us? i don't know, chief. no real reason, i suppose. but this whole veil of secrecy bit leaves you a lot of wiggle room when it comes to facts. even your own students aren't properly equipped to determine the validity of their style's history. that's seriously suspect. essentially, you're eliminating their chance to make fully informed decisions.


Soy, I notice that your profile does not tell us your city of residence.

mine does. what of it?


Stealing is not a quality I would attribute to a martial artist. Please do not steal my pictures or plagiarize my website.

it's not really stealing or plagiarizing if it's cited, is it. it wasn't presented as original material. it was attributed to you and your organization. hardly stealing.


I have spent many years training in Shou Shu. In my early years, my curiosity got to me and I spent much time investigating other arts. I went to tournaments, demonstrations, attended classes and took it to the streets. I have now decided that this is a waste of my time. Now they come to me and I try to be as polite as possible but I show them the way. I can imagine how hard it is for people who have trained all of their lives to realize that they have wasted their time.

"show them the way" have i mentioned lately how thoroughly fed up i am with analogies about 'ways', 'paths', 'roads', 'highways', and 'byways'?

"I can imagine how hard it is for people who have trained all of their lives to realize that they have wasted their time." beautiful. because that's precisely what you're doing. belief preservation. you defend your own beliefs and choices. we all do. now, we can't accurately say whether you've wasted your time. hell, even if your style wasn't worth anything, if you'd enjoyed the process, it still couldn't be described as a waste of time. but understand that you're involved in precisely the same process. you're not immune.


The secrets of Shou Shu are not seen unless you have Eyes for them. In investigating other arts it is obvious to me that most of the things that they do have origins in something useful and real. However they are ussually so diluted to be innefective. Most forms of kung fu have lost the why and the truth although it is there hidden. You , most likely do not know what you are looking at. It is not your fault, it has been lost in most arts.

here's another of those built-in safety buffers. like the history that not even your own students know. the secrets of X are only known to those who are ready. handily alleviates the need to actually back up any of your assertions. if we don't 'get' it (read: agree with you), it's only because we don't 'have eyes' for it.


I'm afraid that one cannot explain the sea to a well frog.

analogies. last bastion of a weak argument. we're not well frogs. we're reasoning human beings. don't blame us for your unwillingness to provide us with more information.


Yes, we do some of the Kempo techniques, but as someone on this forum has already stated, the technique is not the art. The technique is the most basic level of learning. It is only a starting point.

what that person said was that the principles make the art. then, when questioned further, he was unable (or unwilling) to go into further detail about the principles involved. so would you be willing to discuss, specifically, the difference?


If my Da' shifu were to one day come to me and say that the history was all a lie. He got the art from a magic gumball machine or made it up. I would inly train harder in it. For then I would consider him more of a genius than I already do. It has saved my life and the lives of others too.

a genius that willfully mislead you? you wouldn't resent that at all?


As far as the sword form goes. Brandon Lei (sp?) taught that to us. Really, as with most of that a bit to showy for our taste. The way he constantly says "Charisma, charisma " What has that got to do with fighting. I don't understand. Some of our shifu's have converted it to our motion. I saw that one of the posts noticed this. It is different, he has taken out the flashy BS.

could you go into further detail about this 'motion'?


We have had other Masters come to teach us also. We alwys find that they have litlle or nothing to teach. ASk a certain Swai Chou (sp?) master who was bested on his own terms at his own art by one of our junior black belts after a seminar on the topic.

that would be a whole lot easier if you had provided the name of said shuai chiao master. (and shouldn't you know how to spell these things? da'shifu knows enough to correct these masters on their own styles. but his second in command can't even spell them? that seems odd to me.)


Masters have flown from China and Japan to study from Da' Shifu. He is knowledgeable enough to corect them in their own arts and I have seen this.

again, i'd want to talk to the masters who've been 'corrected.' get their opinion of that. see whether anyone else considers them masters.


I am sorry that you train without seeing. It is unfortunate that most of you will spend your life learning an art which has lost it's fighting ability over the years. I'm certain that at one time in history it was taught well, else it would not still exist.

right. we disagree with you. therefore, we train without seeing. that follows.


Shou Shu has worked for me with extreme efficiency. I have been attacked on the street by multiple opponents ( 8 on 2 ) who had weapons and meant to do me great harm. They were hospitalized and I'm sure many have injuries which will never heal properly. I am sorry for that but my life was threatened. I am thankful for my abilities.

if that's true, then i'm glad for you. but i think that the history and presentation is the biggest issue here. if it's essentially modified kempo, then why not market it as such. why this stuff about mandarin princes?


stuart b.

[shaolin kungfu]

Can a shou shu practitioner please explain the prinicipals behind their art. I think Braden asked a while back and no one was willing to give a satisfactory answer(some nonsense about beasts is not satisfactory). So far, shou shu looks made up(which wouldn't be bad if they marketed it as a new style).

[Akuma]

the webpage (http://www.mooresshoushu.com/) for shou shu seems to be down as well...or not providing much information about the art.

[firepalm]

Me thinks that they smell of Temple Kung Fu, Shaolin Do & other such reputed 'Chinese' arts. Funny how Kenpo (Kempo) often seems to be a common thread!?!?!?!?!?:eek:

[joedoe]

The shoo shoo supporters keep dragging this one up don't they?

Da Shifu - hmmmm. I remember another poster talking about a Da Shifu as well. I remember thinking his story was kinda funny as well. Something about Da Shifu inheriting the art from an old Chinese guy who didn't speak English. It didn't matter that Da Shifu didn't speak Chinese either, he still managed to inherit the entire style.

Anyone else sensing piscatorial aromas?

[dezhen2001]

hehehe Da Shifu... i remember those days dude :D Those animal styles were mad game :cool:

whatever happened to him anyway?

dawood

[joedoe]

Dunno man. I can't even remember the name of the dude who brought it up. I am not even sure if I had a problem with the art itself, just the story that they gave about it being the only true war art surviving from Shaolin etc. etc. And the story about the old Chinese dude who taught Da Shifu was just too much.

[dezhen2001]

LOL! it was a guy called PJO who got on the wrong side of Wushu Chik :D

The story was basically the same as this one, frighteningly similar actually - i cant believe this thread was ttt! LMAO!

As for the skill, it was kempo and all the animals were very similar :D

the website is here (http://www.fareastfightingarts.com/) :cool:

dawood

[joedoe]

OMG I had forgotten how funny that was. Shaolin-WuTag triads taught by Da Mo!

Thanks for that Dez. I owe you one :)

[dezhen2001]

for some reason the url has been lodged in my brain (:() so i thuoght i may as well share it as its pretty funny! :D

dawood

[shaolin kungfu]

LOL at that website.

[Black Jack]

FYI- Actually the oldest civilization we know of is in with in Ireland. Though we don't really know that much if anything about the culture.

Newgrange is the oldest intact building in the world, older than Stonehenge and the pyramids of Egypt. It's north of dublin near Drogheda on a hill over looking the Boyne River Valley

[turbo76]

:)

[turbo76]

:)

[carly]

Silly McDojo.

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

No, I think he is calling your school silly :D

[turbo76]

:)

[Brad]

Da Shifu Sr.'s brother and son are members of the North American Grandmasters and Masters Council
It's a meaningless organization :confused:

[joedoe]

Well, I was going to say that, but didn't want to offend anyone else :)

[Brad]

Well, it's true :p Look at the website, they don't seem to do anything except say,"we're masters and grandmasters!" This is actually the first I've heard of this oprganization. It's basically like the "Sokeship Council" :D

[joedoe]

LOL!

What I want to know is what qualifies you for membership? Can you just call yourself Grandmaster and voila you can get membership? Even better - make up your own style.

In my experience true masters and grandmasters don't need to join an association to be recognised :)

[Akuma]

Thing is though that you guys haven't actually seen what they do?...they may well be decent school but you're just going by what you can/can't find on the internet.

And no I don't go to the school but really if ya going to pass judgement, shouldn't you actually visit the school and see what it's really like first?

[carly]

Everything they write on their site shows them to be what they are.
Chinese martial arts don't exist in a vacuum - it's a tight community.
Grandmasters know who they are, as do their students, and the students from other real schools who are aware of the kung fu community - no "grandmaster association" necessary.
It's bogus.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Akuma
Thing is though that you guys haven't actually seen what they do?...they may well be decent school but you're just going by what you can/can't find on the internet.

And no I don't go to the school but really if ya going to pass judgement, shouldn't you actually visit the school and see what it's really like first?

My argument is not with their art (even though I have to agree with Dez on this - all their animals looked the same) it is with the history of the art that they give. Have a look at the website Dez gave a link to and tell me that you don't have a problem with the story.

[SevenStar]

heh. I remember this style - check out this thread from a while back

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15280&highlight=shou+shu

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
LOL! it was a guy called PJO who got on the wrong side of Wushu Chik :D

The story was basically the same as this one, frighteningly similar actually - i cant believe this thread was ttt! LMAO!

As for the skill, it was kempo and all the animals were very similar :D

the website is here (http://www.fareastfightingarts.com/) :cool:

dawood

Is it just me, or did those animal forms look like various forms of ass?

I guess he was demo-ing mantis ass, cobra ass, tiger ass and crane ass.

I will give him some credit for the puter kapala he attempted in the mantis form though.

[dezhen2001]

what the heck is a "puter kapala"? :confused:

i cant believe this thread was brought back up LOL amazing! anything to not talk about the war! :D

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Is it just me, or did those animal forms look like various forms of ass?

I guess he was demo-ing mantis ass, cobra ass, tiger ass and crane ass.

I will give him some credit for the puter kapala he attempted in the mantis form though.

Can you describe a puter kapala for me? I have heard the term a few times but I don't know what it is. Thanks.

BTW I had another look at the clips and I think I have to agree with you. :)

[dezhen2001]

7* i must have totally missed that thread 1st time round :confused:

i d/l ALL the clips to watch today hehe :) good positioning for the kicks and control of the opponents (only) punching arm :cool:

dawood

[SevenStar]

puter kapala is a neck twisting takedown taught in various systems of silat and also seen in jkd.

check out the mantis clip - see the neck twist he does? basically, that's a puter kapala.

[SevenStar]

http://www.donrearic.com/bayou.html

the last two rows of pictures here has someone doing it with a knife.

[joedoe]

OK thanks. We have a similar technique in our school. I assumed you were talking about some sort of wrestling/BJJ move and I couldn't see where it was :)

[shaolin kungfu]

So what's everyones final verdict on shou shu?

[NorthernMantis]

When Da' Shifu was a boy,...

Enough said. It's that da shifu guys' school.

[SevenStar]

http://www.authenticbeladiri.com/s1.htm
http://www.orlandokuntao.com/master_frameset_handout.html

I'm trying to find a good one, but can't. Ah well. From the links I posted, you can get a good enough idea.

[joedoe]

Thanks 7*. I think I get the idea now.

[turbo76]

:)

[Brad]

Thing is though that you guys haven't actually seen what they do?...they may well be decent school but you're just going by what you can/can't find on the internet.
Who cares whether the school is good or not, my point is that organization seems to be a meaningless do nothing entity. I can start an organization and call it the Supreme Council of Grandmasters. Give me money, and I'll put your name on a website and give a certificate that says Grandmaster on it signed by other members of the "council". In the end what do you have? A piece of paper signed by a bunch of other guys who also bought pieces of paper. Or maybe they didn't pay anything, I don't know. Either way, you just end up with a bunch of guys sitting around putting signatures on worthless pieces of paper for each other, giving meaningless awards to each other(ie Grandmaster of the Year- this really happens :rolleyes: ), and hanging these worthless pieces of paper and awards on their walls to make prospective students think they have real credentials :D

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

So how come it is called Moore's Karate when it claims Chinese lineage?

[SevenStar]

I've got pics of myself with royce... to be a part of the network, you pay your dues and run a club. That doesn't legitimize your style though, it just means that when Royce was there for a seminar, he gave those guys a blue belt. He comes to see us twice a year and sent one of our guys to Denmark to teach BJJ to a thaiboxing school. Does that make us kung fu grandmasters? No, surely not.

[turbo76]

:)

[turbo76]

:)

[Serpent]

Hahaha! Priceless! Check this out:



Moore's Karate Instructors: Certified by Da'Shifu Albert Moore II.
Shun Shifu Tosh Cook, 2nd Degree Black Belt, Shifu Lloyd Pratt, 1st Degree Black Belt
Shifu Mark Bolen, 1st Degree Black Belt, Shifu Andre Messner, 1st Degree Black Belt


Moore's Karate Assistant Instructors: Certified by Shun Shifu Tosh Cook
She'Hing Shelly Hollenbeck, She'Hing Don Lopez
She'Hing Derrek Peckham, Shi'Hing Curlin Phipps
Shi'Hing Brian Gilmore


Karate instructors, certified by shifu's?

And what's the diff between a she-hing and shi-hing? Is that a bit like she-ra and he-man?

:D :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by turbo76
it just proves that Shou Shu is there and its real for those who seek it.

That's what the Moonies said too.

[SevenStar]

if you want to examine pictures, look at the banner at the top of those pages, at the guy punching. hand low, elbow flared...

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by turbo76
who the hell cares, its all fake, walk on.


it just proves that Shou Shu is there and its real for those who seek it.

Interesting quotes - it's all fake, but it's real for those who seek it. Sounds kinda religious to me. Sure it's not a cult? :D

[turbo76]

:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by turbo76
it just proves that Shou Shu is there and its real for those who seek it.

Sure, it's real, but real what? The schedule is more karate and jiu jutsu than shou shu, and it's billed as "Moore's shou shu karate"

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
if you want to examine pictures, look at the banner at the top of those pages, at the guy punching. hand low, elbow flared...

If you think that is good, check out the technique of the month.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by turbo76
email the Gracies and have them post HERE!

duh

better yet, I'll ask him. he comes here twice a year, but he's good friends with a few of our purple belts. Maybe I could get one of them to let me call him. LOL, they probably wouldn't want me bothering him over some forum BS, but who knows...

[Brad]

Ok, now I'll look the website. I'll concentrate on the little bit of history located on the main page of that site. Heck, I'll pick on the first sentence: "Shou Shu Karate is a traditional form of Chinese self-defense."

First of all, the most obvious knock against this that will raise the eyebrows of every CMA person who reads the forums...
Karate is Japanese. Now that that's out of the way, I can't think of any traditional teacher of a Chinese art that would call their art "karate", use a Japanese style belt system, and japanese style uniforms. And the idea of a Chinese master passing on his complete art to some white guy who doesn't even know the language or traditions is pretty rediculous. What's with the "She-hengs"? It just doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by turbo76
email the Gracies and have them post HERE!

duh

To what end?

[joedoe]

Not that it is inconceivable that a Chinese master would pass their art onto a white guy (I know of at least one), but they would at least expect the inheritor to know the language and customs and ask them to respect that.

If the art is karate, then call it karate. Making up some BS history is just silly.

[Serpent]

Yeah, well it's probably neither karate or kung fu, know what I mean?

[turbo76]

:)

[SevenStar]

"I agree that Shou Shu is the most effective and complete martial art in existence! I recently watched a sanctioned karate world tournament and I thought it was weak! It looked really cool and all, but the practioners didn't seem to understand the way their bodies should move in order to convey more power and speed. Also, I see a lot of moves from other martial arts that start with a windup of the weapon being used (arm or leg), which would give a competent shou shu practioner the opportunity to strike before the other person. Pay attention to your instructors and train hard, and you will develop into a skilled shou shu practioner! Goals that seemed unreachable years ago will suddenly be happening to you!"

"I recently watched a fighting competition on tv called *** were they fight in an octagon. I saw these guys laying on the floor most of the fight, they cant eye gouge hit in the groin or hit in deadly spots as shou shu practioners do. I realized what would these guys do if they were mass attacked, in a street fight we use all our weapons and our ready for 3 too 4 guys at the same time. Its an honor too have the knowledge of shou shu. theres nothing else like our art."

[joedoe]

Originally posted by turbo76
sorry, i have limited history of Shou Shu, email the Shou Shu instructors if you want detail, if you all would have been more polite to Shun Shifu Weaver, he might have answered all of your ?s.

Actually, no. He stated straight up that he was posting his one posting and then he was going to disappear because he was off to practice his mongoose (which we would be unfortunate enough to never see).

So Shun Shifu Weaver was never going to answer any questions.

[Brad]

Not that it is inconceivable that a Chinese master would pass their art onto a white guy (I know of at least one), but they would at least expect the inheritor to know the language and customs and ask them to respect that.
Exactly :-)

[Brad]

sorry, i have limited history of Shou Shu, email the Shou Shu instructors if you want detail, if you all would have been more polite to Shun Shifu Weaver, he might have answered all of your ?s.
Ok, some questions for you.
1.Do you care whether or not your school's history is a lie?
2.Did you bother to look into your school's background or the teacher's background?
3.Does it bother you that Shou Shu declares itself superior to all other martial arts, yet has to teach jujitsu and kickboxing in addition to Shou Shu?
4.Have you bothered to look into what any of these titles they use actually mean and whether they make any sense to Chinese people?

[joedoe]

The silence is deafening. :D

[Serpent]

And yet it says so much...

:)

[joedoe]

That he has gone to sleep because it is the middle of the night in the US? :D

[Serpent]

Or he's gone to train?















































Bwaahahahaahaaaa!

[joedoe]

Off to practice mongoose? :)

[Akuma]

Originally posted by joedoe
Off to practice mongoose? :)

sounds kinky--no wait, lol :p

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by turbo76
heres the Fresno/Clovis CA Shou Shu website

http://neweramartialarts.com/moores_karate/

well, that says "shou shu karate." but still maintains that it's a chinese art passed down through the mandarin ruling class. that doesn't make much sense.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

of course, like eight other people have already made that observation. and i'm just slow. slow like a kevin costner film.

i'll be weeping quietly in my office if anyone needs me.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by turbo76
it just proves that Shou Shu is there and its real for those who seek it.

that's just it, turbo. it doesn't prove that. i have pictures of me with dan inosanto too. that doesn't make me a JKD teacher.

besides, most of the criticism being leveled right now pertains to the style's history. it doesn't make any sense. it sounds manufactured. it's very easy for a person to create a 'highly secretive' art that's been 'passed down for generations.' and then, voila, they're the grandmaster of this system. the 'teacher of teachers.'

see how much better that is for marketing than simply being another kenpo teacher. or whatever is really the case?

does the possibility that this history is bogus bother you at all?

you can say (as several other shou shu students and teachers already have) that you don't care about the history as long as it works. phil even said that if he found out from dashifu that it was a falsified history, he not only wouldn't care, but he'd find dashifu's accomplishments that much more amazing.

but if it doesn't matter, why the false history in the first place? if it only matters whether the system works, why would a teacher create a backstory rather than sticking with the truth?

and the fact that phil said he'd admire dashifu all the more if he found out that the history was fake suggest to me that he's known as much for quite some time. and now he's telling his students how they should feel about it. covering tracks.

if the style works for you, then good. do your thing. but however indelicate our criticisms of the school might be, something's up. if you don't care, that's fine. but something is up.


stuart b.

[turbo76]

:)

[shaolin kungfu]

Al Moore could speak Chinese like i speak English.

I thought one of the websites said that he spoke no chinese. The history is obviously false. If the art is what it says it is(the greatest martial art in the world, capable of defeating any other), there would be no need for the falsified history.

[turbo76]

:)

[carly]

that some of this crappy kwoon's students read this thread and do a little thinking for themselves and some "comparison shopping" with other martial arts, and learn something that is what it says it is. Unbelievable.

[shaolin kungfu]

Perhaps the saddest thing is that some people actually buy into the schools BS.:(

[carly]

but it's like the Emperor's New Clothes - you have to wake up and face reality.

[shaolin kungfu]

The students of shou shu(at least the ones on here) refuse to see that their art is not what it claims to be.

[carly]

Some of them will think about what they have read here and begin to draw their own conclusions.
I doubt that asking their own teachers for more info will help.

[apoweyn]

turbo76,


Originally posted by turbo76
well from what i have learned, Shou Shu wasnt created in China. it came from China to America, but it came from India, Japan and Egypt too, maybe some other countries too.

ah, c'mon turbo. think about this. do some research. take some responsibility here.

the history says that it was handed down strictly through the mandarin ruling class. which is why none of us have heard of it before. now, not only did it exist outside of the mandarin ruling family. it existed outside of china. in fact, it didn't even originate there.

does that make any sense to you?

what's the reasoning now? why have none of us heard of this before now if it's passed through more countries than the average diplomat?

one possible answer: it went by different names in different countries. but then the next question was provided by you yourself. you said that shou shu features some of the same techniques as other arts. but that its performance is differentiated by 'shou shu movement.' if you could explain to us further about this movement, then perhaps we could recognize it in the arts of various countries and see for ourselves the thread that connects these various incarnations of shou shu.


from what i was told, Cobra and Mongoose came strickly from India, but one could say that Shou Shu in America is Moores American Shou Shu because Da Shifu has changed it some since he got it from China.

okay, let's try and keep this simple. can you provide one reference to shou shu not connected with the moore family? no? the moore family suggests that's because only they were taught the secret style, right? do you see how that gives them the opportunity to tell you virtually anything they want to?

and if shou shu changes from india to egypt to japan to china to the united states, what does it even mean to be a style? is there any connection whatsoever between 'american shou shu' and 'egyptian shou shu'?


also the "karate" term is used correctly because Shou Shu did go thro Japan too.

i was in korea once. didn't change my name to 'rhee.'

why is the term 'karate' more appropriate than 'kung fu' or... whatever the hell they called the martial art in egypt? don't you think it's possible that it's because what they're teaching actually is karate? and not some obscure and closely guarded mandarin family style?


from what i was told, it started in Egypt, then collected some info from India,(ex. Cobra, Mongoose) then went to Japan, then China, then finally America.

and have you ever heard of any other style going through that same process?


the terms Da Shifu, Shifu and all that was the language that Al Moore learned it in because he got it from China. Al Moore could speak Chinese like i speak English.

then why did he call it 'karate'? he spoke chinese. wouldn't it have made more sense, been more consistent, to stick with the terminology of one country? yes, it would've. but then, he couldn't have explained why the style looks so much like karate. c'mon turbo, there are too many inconsistencies for you not to at least ask some of these questions for yourself.


and proving that the history is true or not could never be proven to me cause i cant go back in time and see for my self so its not important to me. i could care less about the history, i mean its interseting, but i dont know if its a myth, all i care about is learning Shou Shu.

you've probably never been present for a complete circumnavigation of the globe either. and yet you accept that the earth is round, right? why? probably because this information 1) makes sense, 2) is corroborated by several independent sources and not through one biased source.

it's not a myth, turbo. myths were created by people who actually believed, who were trying to make sense of something they didn't understand.

this is a marketing ploy. designed to entice customers and provide a smokescreen. the saddest thing is that it's such a completely unnecessary smokescreen. if the school knows what it's doing, then it'll prosper. they don't need a 'secret' style. they need a solid curriculum disseminated by well-trained instructors. if they have that, then this story is unnecessary. if they don't, then this story is a manipulative ploy.


stuart b.

[Lao_Peng_You]

I have some general comments and questions regarding this "style" of martial art:

Why do these types of schools shroud themselves in secret and claim to be unbeatable?

I am familiar with a cultish Kung Fu organization claiming the unbeatable style etc. etc. Many chinese organizations have been isolationists as it pertains to other races, but not amongst themselves. Why is it important for more hybrid and racially open styles to hide themselves amongst themselves?

It is not uncommon for Kung Fu players of different styles to visit each other and cross hands in an intense yet friendly manner (by friendly I mean not to maim or kill). Does Shou Shu do this? Do they have tournaments? Can others join these tournaments?

What is the theory behind "beast" movements, and why is Shou Shu so different than let's say Norther Tiger? Why is a monkey unworthy of imitation? What are the general principles/strategies of Shou Shu? For example, what is a common way to gain advantage/position? What is the preferred distance for performing a technique?

[turbo76]

:)

[firepalm]

middle america white folk figures!

[shaolin kungfu]

It's easier to leave then make valid points.

Before you leave, please answer some questions...

1) what principles does your art operate on?
2) are the moore's the only lineage holders of shou shu?
3) Why don't you care about the history of your school? I would think the fact that a school lies to it's students would be a sign of its validity.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by turbo76
i dont care about the history. i compare what ive learned to every art i come across and i still choose Shou Shu over them all. im done posting here. if you have any ?'s email the Shou Shu schools. good luck to ya all.

why would we do that? they don't answer our questions anyway.

so you're gone, and i don't expect you'll answer this. but just for the sake of being thorough: precisely what other arts have you 'come across' and what constitutes a 'comparison'?


stuart b.

[shaolin kungfu]

I don't think we will be getting any answers from the secretive shou shu guys.

[joedoe]

It is funny you know - I can almost see the process the school has gone through to fabricate the story.

1) We teach kempo/karate but we want to differentiate ourselves. How do we do that? Make up a story and change our name.

2) What story? How about one about an ancient, secret art handed down solely to our master. Make it Chinese because it is harder to verify due to the destruction perpetrated during the Cultural Revolution. Make it more exotic by saying it came from Egypt & India first.

3) What name? Hmmm - karate means something like empty hand, so let's translate that into Chinese. Shou = hand, shu = art so Shou Shu = 'hand art'.

Once again, the silence is deafening.

[shaolin kungfu]

The shou shu guys ran away, no point in trying to talk to them.

[carly]

Let's hope that they talk among themselves and do some rational, independent thinking.

[shaolin kungfu]

but i doubt they will. They seemed pretty closed minded.

[carly]

moment we were witnessing, before the truth sinks in.
That's what con men rely upon, the denial of the victim who refuses to face the terrible truth that he has been played for a sucker.

[shaolin kungfu]

I hope, for their sake, that your right.

[Akuma]

I found something (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=361E66A4.5EE0%40lmco.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dtracy%2Bkenpo%2Bmoore%26hl%3Den%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D361E66A4.5EE0%2540lmco.com%26rnum%3D1) interesting here about sho shu...

It could be true and it would explain a lot of things.

[joedoe]

Bwahahahahaha :D :D :D

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

I thought you weren't coming back? :)

Seriously though, if the history doesn't matter to you then that is fine. It is good that you are happy with what you are learning, and ultimately that is all that matters.

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

I am not trying to be rude or confrontational, but are you seriously not bothered by the fact that the style's history as told to you by your teachers is probably made up? It doesn't make you question their honesty?

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

A Google search of Shou Shu only turns up links to Al Moore's school. Even the most obscure of styles at least shows up more than one reference on the internet.

Though you seem to discount it, there are actually a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum. I would be fairly confident that if there was no-one here that believed the story then there is a pretty good chance that it is bogus.

How much research outside of your school's resources have you done?

I dunno, as I said - if it really doesn't matter to you then don't worry about it. I just know that if I found out that the story being spun to me by my teacher was false, it would really call into question anything he tells me.

[turbo76]

:)

[Brad]

if the history doesn't matter to you then that is fine. It is good that you are happy with what you are learning, and ultimately that is all that matters.
But doesn't honesty and integrety count for anything? All the signs point to the "Da Sifu" being a liar, plain and simple. What he teaches may be pretty good, but personally I wouldn't want to be around something like that. In the martial arts, the students tend to look up to their teacher like a young child would a parent, or how a religious person would their priest. Now, if a teacher is dishonest enough to lie to the public about their background in order to gain more students, then odds are that lack of moral character is going to bleed through in other ways too. Usually this results in a cult like defence of their teacher no matter what, not wanting to believe they've been taken for suckers, or this man/woman that they look up to could be this dishonest. In the end they become liars too, whether they realize it or not.

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

I agree with you Brad, but if he won't be convinced that the story is inaccurate then all that really matters is that he is happy with what he is learning - don't you agree? I don't think we achieve anything by continuing to bash his school, all we can do is encourage him to research it for himself, and maybe help him out in the research. You and I are convinced that the story is inaccurate, but turbo76 is not and the only way he will be convinced is if he finds out for himself.

Now if he won't put in the effort to find out for himself, then there really isn't anything else we can do. And ultimately, is it really our place to convince him?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by turbo76
nah, wont judge him without prof. he used to teach and has help people save their own lives, i wont call him a lier if i dont know.

Proof goes 2 ways - we can try to prove that the claims are false, but you can also try and verify the tructh of the story. ;)

[turbo76]

:)

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

That is a bit of a cop out don't you think? So you are saying that we cannot learn anything from history because we weren't there?

[Brad]

That's understandable, but I was just pointing out one of my problems with frauds. Just because some of us can spot him for what he is, doesn't mean you would be able to. It's not like you were an expert in Chinese martial arts before you started. All I ask is that you don't automatically dismiss everyone's opinions, and that you make an effort to check it out yourself. My family's been there before, and that was after we'd been with the guy for 7 years! Of course in my case it was easier because it turned out some of the people my "karatefu" teacher had claimed he'd learned from extensively were still alive :D Got some interesting letters, lol ;-)

[Akuma]

If the guy was a Tracy BB(hypothetically speaking), it'd mean that he's a pretty decent martial artist anyway right?--and kenpo is a decent street effective MA from what I've read.

I guess my point is, as long as the stuff taught works then that's the most important thing. Plus, maybe he has friends that go there etc...and because he's convinced the style works he figures, ahh well who cares about the history as long as it works and the people there are good.

It is kind of dodgy though that they probably made up some story about it's origins or whatever but if that's the only problem with it and the ppl there do have integrity...then I sort of can see it from turbo76's point of view.

I'm not saying I agree with turbo76 but only that I can see his point of view.

[Brad]

not sure how one could know without being there, cant go back 20-30 years.
There are ways. In some cases there are old written manuals, you can find edvidence of styles from old stories, tracing geneaology, comparing oral histories of various people, etc. For example, Tai Tzu Chang Quan is a style that can be traced back to the old emperor from written documents and drawings (ask Royal Dragon about this, it's one of his favorite subjects ;-) ). There's also a lot of styles where the link is obvious just by watching someone practice the forms. There's all kinds of ways. For Shou Shu, the first step would be tracing this Moore guy's background independently(in other words, not just interviewing him and his students ;-)).

[turbo76]

:)

[shaolin kungfu]

But if it was kenpo, which is a well respected ma, there would be no need to lie. If moore was a black belt in kenpo, why doesn't he just say so? I think the fact that the history is made up, points to the effectiveness of the art. If the art was truly effective, and moore had created it, he would want to claim it as his own. I never heard helio gracie or bruce lee claim some messed up lineage.

[Brad]

but if that's the only problem with it and the ppl there do have integrity...
But how can someone say they have integrity if they willingly promote a lie? And, in my opinion, saying "I don't care whether he's a fraud or not, as long as I learn to kick ass!" is just as bad as making up the lies yourself. I feel that when you lie to people even if you give them the tools to defend themselves, you're still hurting them in other ways. There's potential for serious phychological damage when someone you trust turns out to be a fraud, especially among children and young teens. Adults might be able to handle it ok, but kids tend to take things like this kind of hard. And just saying,"what they don't know, can't hurt them" isn't a very good argument either as the chances of them finding out eventually are pretty high, and the longer they believe a lie, the harder it will hit if they find out the truth.

[turbo76]

:)

[Brad]

i know some people who have studied Ed Parkers Kenpo, its pretty good, but it doesnt flow like Shou Shu, and its got too much wasted motion.
Are those your observations or your teachers? How much experience do you have fighting experienced people from Ed Parkers Kempo? Do you really know if that "motion" was wasted or did it serve a purpose?

[turbo76]

:)

[shaolin kungfu]

There's no way all that crap about da mo didn't make you at least question it. The story(to anyone that has looked into it) is obviously false.

[joedoe]

turbo76, have you tried searching for any info on Shou Shu? Even an internet search?

Tell you what. Have you ever heard of Wu Chu Chuan (AKA Wuzuquan, Ngor Chor Kun, Five Ancestor's Fist)? Or maybe Seng Men? They are 2 lesser known styles of kung fu. I assure you if you do a google search you will find at least 1 site on each style.

Have a go. Please don't bury your head in the sand.

[shaolin kungfu]

Do you regularly spar against other experienced martial artists? Do you have any experience on which to base your statements of other arts inefficiency? Just because shou shu works on the average uneducated hack, doesn't mean it works against all other styles.

[Brad]

i dont think the history is made up, or he would say he created Shou Shu because you can tell its not Kenpo and id say that its a lot more effective than Kenpo and that would make him a bigger genius than Parker.
Like I said, what personal experience do you base this on(the superiority of Shou Shu I mean)? There's actually a very practical purpose for making up history, and that's to make money. People watch a lot of kungfu movies and are easily impressed by fantastical histories and legends. Atributing silly titles such as Da Sifu to tradition gives him a legitimate reason to put himself on a pedastal to feed his own ego.

[Brad]

well Shou Shu has worked for me, thats all that matters to me.
So you're saying that honesty, integrity, and the possibility of your teacher causing great phycological harm to cute, innocent, little children mean nothing to you? As long as you can fight good, that's all that matters? Surely, you have a concience.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Brad

But how can someone say they have integrity if they willingly promote a lie? And, in my opinion, saying "I don't care whether he's a fraud or not, as long as I learn to kick ass!" is just as bad as making up the lies yourself. I feel that when you lie to people even if you give them the tools to defend themselves, you're still hurting them in other ways. There's potential for serious phychological damage when someone you trust turns out to be a fraud, especially among children and young teens. Adults might be able to handle it ok, but kids tend to take things like this kind of hard. And just saying,"what they don't know, can't hurt them" isn't a very good argument either as the chances of them finding out eventually are pretty high, and the longer they believe a lie, the harder it will hit if they find out the truth.

That's a very good point. However, some instructors could have integrity but be thrown into this lie(if it is one) without realizing it is one, and honestly truly believe in the school and founding instructor. Not everyone there could be pushing the lie..hence why I say that it is possible for some teachers to have integrity at the school..

I do agree with your points in general though...

[dezhen2001]

theres too much pressure guys - **** i wouda been flattened by now :eek:

some good posts though - especially from joedoe :)

dawood

[shaolin kungfu]

what styles have you had experience with, sparring or training? Can you honestly say that shou shu is more effective than all other styles?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Akuma


That's a very good point. However, some instructors could have integrity but be thrown into this lie(if it is one) without realizing it is one, and honestly truly believe in the school and founding instructor. Not everyone there could be pushing the lie..hence why I say that it is possible for some teachers to have integrity at the school..

I do agree with your points in general though...

Despite what my signature says :), ignorance is a pretty poor excuse for helping prop up a lie. Shouldn't the instructors try to learn more about the art by themselves? I know I try to learn more about the history of Ngor Chor as much as I can.

To me, trying to find out about the history of my art enhances my enthusiasm and enjoyment of the art. Maybe I am just a wierdo :)

So far my research has turned up 2 slightly different versions of the art's history, however that doesn't mean I simply accepted the history told to me by my sihings. And my quest continues :).

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by turbo76
i dont think the history is made up, or he would say he created Shou Shu because you can tell its not Kenpo and id say that its a lot more effective than Kenpo and that would make him a bigger genius than Parker.


yeah, but you're saying that based on absolutely no direct experience with kenpo or any other art. just what you see in movies and books. that's your whole problem, turbo. you're not willing to do any independent thinking about this.

you say that the history is impossible for you to know, because you weren't there. only direct experience could make things clear for you. and yet, you're willing to write off the effectiveness of kenpo or any other art by stubbornly refusing to engage in direct experience. that's keeping yourself willfully ignorant. which is precisely what a dishonest school is counting on.

you don't care about the history. because what you're learning works. do yourself a favour and see whether it works against other people. YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE. one friend who does taekwondo isn't enough research. find others. try out your style. don't rely on anyone else's opinion. without that, you're just towing the party line.


stuart b.

[edited to apologize for being overly harsh. i'm not saying this because i enjoy bashing on you turbo. you seem like a decent guy. and many of us here genuinely think you're being taken for a ride.]

[turbo76]

:)

[apoweyn]

alright turbo. do whatever you want. (as if you need my permission.)

personally, i don't like having pertinent information withheld from me (which phil admitted to doing). and i certainly don't like being lied to (which may or may not be the case here).

regardless, it's your life.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

anybody else noticed that everytime some guy steps up as an authority on some obscure art we've never heard of before, he's always got prior experience in arts we have heard of before?

whether it's some obscure weapon system used by the navajo or the vikings or some closely-guarded family kung fu style, the guy always has several years of something far more recognizable under his belt.

if these arts preexisted that individual, you'd think that there would be at least a couple of teachers who knew only that obscure art. instead, we get people with enough background in other arts to be able to synthesize something and slap a new (and often nonsensical to native speakers) name on it.


stuart b.

[carly]

II. Information Control

1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying

2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think

3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

4. Spying on other members is encouraged
a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

III. Thought Control

1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as "Truth"
a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".

3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.

4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.
Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking


5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful

[firepalm]

Well Shou Shu was taught (per the first post) to the Mandarin ruling class (?). I've read that a few other styles have had such similar such distinguishments; Baji Quan, Yang Taiji, Hop Gar, etc... yet they didn't manage to remain such unheard secretive styles. Odd how Shou Shu was taught to generations of the Mandarin ruling class (blah, blah, blah...) & no info can be found on it till some 'middle America white guy' (with dubious Kenpo ties) comes along.

Mention was previously made of Ed Parker Jr. being able to answer questions on Moore & his Shou Shu. Come on this is the same guy that hung out with Olaf Simon & graded him Bahahahahhahahhahaha.

Like I said before "middle america white folk figures!":eek:

[shaolin kungfu]

The fact that the history is false points to the effectiveness of the art. If shou shu was truly effective, it would'nt need to lie about it's origins. BJJ is a brutally effective art and never and needed a lie to gain popularity. People recognized it for what it was. It has become a popular and well respected art, even without a long history. Same goes for JKD, and numerous other arts. If shou shu was effective, people would join because of that, and not because of some falsified history.

Just my thoughts.

[turbo76]

:)

[firepalm]

try working on your comebacks
:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by turbo76
o thank you God for all your good advice, any other advice theye Holy One.

er, who are you talking to?

[shaolin kungfu]

he's talking to me, for i am god. And he will be smoten for his sarcasm.:D

[Akuma]

Originally posted by joedoe


Despite what my signature says :), ignorance is a pretty poor excuse for helping prop up a lie. Shouldn't the instructors try to learn more about the art by themselves? I know I try to learn more about the history of Ngor Chor as much as I can.

To me, trying to find out about the history of my art enhances my enthusiasm and enjoyment of the art. Maybe I am just a wierdo :)

So far my research has turned up 2 slightly different versions of the art's history, however that doesn't mean I simply accepted the history told to me by my sihings. And my quest continues :).

yeah, that is true to a large degree...If it were me I would always be asking questions--but that's just my nature..some other ppl aren't like that and may be more naive, which is why I can imagine people unintentionally supporting a lie.

If someone hasn't done martial arts before and they see this amazing thing called shou shu and he's so impressed with the people there and the style and 'convinced' of its effectiveness, he may not have too many doubts that it is the most devestating martial art in existance.

It is as a result of not walking outside the box to see other perspectives that limit his understanding of what is 'really' out there.

[turbo76]

:)

[carly]

Hi. AS you must know, this is a pretty well-informed group of people who post here, and the overwhelming response to your schools's claims has been absolutely sceptical, from people from all different styles.
You say you know there's something fishy about your sifu's claims, yet you still enjoy what you're learning.
Fine, that's good. So what more do you want from this thread?

[Akuma]

Originally posted by turbo76
maybe you should reread my posts again and again and again and again, maybe youll get it. i dont have blind faith, duh

I'm not referring to you specifically. I was just giving an example of how someone could think in a situation like that. I'm not saying YOU thought like that.

Sorry if I seemed to directly implicate you in that post.

[turbo76]

:)

[carly]

What other martial arts are avilable to you in your area?

[firepalm]

Turbo is exhibiting similar responses & character traits as the 'blinders on' Temple KF supporters, when asked a direct question or confronted with evidence they almost never give a direct answer. Usually the most get is, 'well it's a really good workout, super effective (in their limited experience), the teacher is really wonderful, blah, blah, blah...

Long & short, it ain't true verfiable Chinese Martial Art style (Shou Shu, Temple, Shaolin Do, etc...)! :eek:

[smogwax]

I posted earlier in this thread defending Shou Shu. That was when Da Shifu Sr. was still alive and teaching. I do not however support Da Shifu Jr. or the other "new" masters of "shou shu" as they do not teach the same art any longer and I would not want to learn from them, they may be able to take me out in a heart beat but I would not personally call them master.

As to shou shu, Da Shifu Sr. taught a good art that had many roots.. and that is all there is to it. There are many other arts out there some work some don't and some are just good excercise. make your own choices and judge for yourself, I have.

I no longer pratice with the Moore's Family...but I still respect Ralph Moore Sr and his memory.

~smogwax

[Akuma]

Originally posted by smogwax
I posted earlier in this thread defending Shou Shu. That was when Da Shifu Sr. was still alive and teaching. I do not however support Da Shifu Jr. or the other "new" masters of "shou shu" as they do not teach the same art any longer and I would not want to learn from them, they may be able to take me out in a heart beat but I would not personally call them master.

As to shou shu, Da Shifu Sr. taught a good art that had many roots.. and that is all there is to it. There are many other arts out there some work some don't and some are just good excercise. make your own choices and judge for yourself, I have.

I no longer pratice with the Moore's Family...but I still respect Ralph Moore Sr and his memory.

~smogwax

If they aren't teaching the same art any longer, what are they teaching instead?--and what is wrong with what they teach that makes it so inferior to what your old teacher taught?

Also, were you guys doing much sparring back then?

And lastly, what martial art are you trying to learn instead of shou shu?

[smogwax]

So I do not know what they are teaching now, I do know they changed the beast forms to something else...

As to inferiority... I never said it was better or worse, I said I would not learn from them, mainly because I will not learn from someone I do not respect, furthermore the ability to kick butt does not define respect in and of itself, so they may be good now, but I will never know because I will not learn from them and they do not spar with other arts as far as I know, if someone outside the art who is a serious student of martial arts has an opprotunity to spar with them I am sure they can fill you in on the effectiveness, but it will not be me.

As to sparring there were many of us in the school who would seek out opprtunities to spar with each other and other schools.. you win a few you lose a few...

Currently I am not studying because I am recovering from knee surgery, in a couple months I will be back in training, I do not want to rush it though as knee injuries are very serious things, and as this is my 3rd surgury I would like to heal correctly this time :) If you have a recommendation as to a direction I am certainly willing to listen to your opinion...

[turbo76]

:)

[dezhen2001]

sounds like a modren day saga :)

dawood

[shaolin kungfu]

Or an old episode of "kung fu".:D

[dezhen2001]

those were the ogod old days - the brandon lee guest appearance one was funny :D

dawood

[smogwax]

Turbo,
I am not concerned with what is decided to be taught from here on out, I do know that I will not be learning it. As to details I do not want to gossip I just want people to know I am no longer supporting the current Moore's system, since someone read this thread and asked me about it. I felt it needed clarifing. My position is open and clear and I do not wish to bash any art, because I am not qualified to judge....
Regards,
~smogwax

[turbo76]

:)

[smogwax]

Like I said I do not want to gossip. What I know to be truth would be hear-say if I started raving all over the net so, Suffice it to say I would recommend to friends that they not go because I do not agree with the methods of the new Moore's.

[turbo76]

:)

[smogwax]

Which Moore's studio do you currently study at and how long have you been studing ?

[turbo76]

:)

[smogwax]

Then everything is the same for you since Da Shifu Jr. has always run things down there...

[shaolin kungfu]

What principles does shou shu opperate on? I don't think any one has given an answer to this.

[turbo76]

:)

[joedoe]

Southern? Northern? China or California?

[Serpent]

Imaginary or reality?

[dezhen2001]

without imaginary you cant have reality... the whole balance thing going on :cool:

bleh.

dawood

[Serpent]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
without imaginary you cant have reality... the whole balance thing going on :cool:

bleh.

dawood

Nice try, Dawood, but you know better than that! ;)

[joedoe]

You are all just a figment of my imagination.

Or am I just a figment of your imagination?

I can never remember. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
You are all just a figment of my imagination.

Or am I just a figment of your imagination?

I can never remember. :D

Actually, this entire board is just a figment of Ralek's imagination.

[dezhen2001]

Nice try, Dawood, but you know better than that! hence the "bleh." mate :)

dawood

[smogwax]

well said all :)

turbo,
There is no Northern or southern anymore there is only Da Shifu Jr. - Da Shifu Ralph and who ever else decides to follow the Moore's family system as it is...

I was at a camp with Da Shifu Jr. once (well more than once but the last was "the last"), I will never allow myself to be near that man again.

martial arts is a world wide thing not something any one family or art owns and anyone who claims to be the one and only is a fool and a braggart and will eventually find someone who is better than they are....

My Verdict:
Shou Shu - another made up melange.

I respect Da Shifu Al Moore Sr.'s memory because he had skill proven and I value the many lessons I had from him personally but that is no more and I will move on.

My advice is pick an art and study it to the fullest extent of your personal ability you can do no more and can only win from this effort.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by smogwax
...

I was at a camp with Da Shifu Jr. once (well more than once but the last was "the last"), I will never allow myself to be near that man again.

martial arts is a world wide thing not something any one family or art owns and anyone who claims to be the one and only is a fool and a braggart and will eventually find someone who is better than they are....

...


What happened? Did he touch you innapropriately? :D Just kidding.

You are right - MAs are a personal thing and no-one can claim to own it. I think the most important thing for MAists to learn is that there is always someone better than you.

[shaolin kungfu]

Thats probably what bothered me most about shou shu. They claimed to be better than everyone else. The importance of the history is debatable, but they certaintly can't say they are the greatest martial art in history.

[Serpent]

Even Musashi was eventually killed in a duel.

There is no greatest style or greatest fighter. Yum Yeong.

[smogwax]

joedoe.....

LMAO !!!

no it was his style of teaching and his overall angry demeanor... (ofcourse this is just my perception)

Yeah the whole best art/most effective thing is very personal I have decided and anything else is a marketing gimmick

anyway....

:)

Train Hard !!

[turbo76]

:)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Serpent
Even Musashi was eventually killed in a duel.

What's your source on that? All records I've read state that he died of illness, at the age of 61.

[smogwax]

Turbo,
Why? if you are having a positive experience then enjoy it. If you really want to know send me an email...
~eric

[kungfuyou]

Maybe the two of you can answer this for me, what PREVIOUS experience in MA does Da Shifu Ralph Moore have?? Like I stated in a earlier post, I had taken the "introductory" classes and had Shifu Clark work with me. He had mentioned Ralph Moore studying another art, do either of you know what this art is? How long he studied for in this art? What rank he achieved? (yes your honor, this line of questioning is leading somewhere)


A little of topic, but anyone know the thread that had a list of "how to avoid a bad martial arts school" or something to that effect? Had a list of TEN things to watch out for! I remembered when looking into this school, Moore's hit about 8 out of the 10 on that list!!!!! :eek:

[turbo76]

:)

[kungfuyou]

I bet they were. I'm sure that Shou Shu was not their first and ONLY art to study. I'm asking because Shifu Clark had told me what it was and what he thought of it and it struck me rather odd.

Again, can you name the art and to what degree he aquired?

[turbo76]

:)

[kungfuyou]

I was just asking what style did Da Shifu Ralph study and what rank did he achieve before studying Shou Shu! This was information that Shifu Clark had told me. Reason I'm asking is he said that this art (not shou shu) was less effective as shou shu, too many wasted movements, stances made you stand in a way that was not normal for the human body and would put you in a disadvantage in a fight. When he told me this, made me wonder what the he!! he was talking about.

[dezhen2001]

wasnt wing chun or xingyiquan or something was it? :confused::D

dawood

[kungfuyou]

Nope, but on the right track!!!

[dezhen2001]

JKD? :confused:

dawood

[kungfuyou]

Nope!!! turbo...can you answer?!

[smogwax]

Tracy Brothers Kenpo, and he did not reach black, You can ask any of the old Tracy Kenpo people... I did.. there are still a few of the original black belts around from the first Tracy bros schools right after they split from Ed Parker....

[kungfuyou]

That's quite different from what I was told!!! Why would I be told one thing, and now you different? More lies to validate Shou Shu???? Again, this doesn't make sense?!

[shaolin kungfu]

Nothing about shou shu makes sense.

[dezhen2001]

are ya gonna tell us, im confused now :confused::p

dawood

[kungfuyou]

LOL...ok ok ok...This is what I was told. When I was there for the "introductory lessons", I was told that Da Shifu Ralph Moore was a black sash in Hung Gar! I was told that Shou Shu doesn't waste movements or learn irregular stances that Hung Gar has you learn. Said that Hung Gar wasn't as nearly as effective for self defence as Shou Shu was, and with Shou Shu you would be able to generate more power!

Being that I had studied some Hung Gar, not much mind you, but some, that really didn't sit well with me!! I have seen a lot of good Hung Gar players before seeing Shou Shu and afterwards, and can't even fathom where or why someone would make that statement!!! None the less, I no longer take lessons at Moore's.

[dezhen2001]

hung gar has a black sash? :confused:
wouldnt have guessed that one anyway as i was thinking of other stuff :D

dawood