Xingyiquan in recent Inside Kung Fu - Question

[CD Lee]

In the recent Inside Kung Fu magazine, they had a good Xingyi article. In one of the pictures, the practitioner is hitting an opponent up into the chin, but I noticed that his fist is contacting the guys chin with the LAST TWO knuckles. Is this actually correct technique?

The reason I ask, is that the little knuckle is very weak, and is the most common bone break from fighting acording to my doctor (found that out from hitting a '64 Dodge...real tough guy huh?).

This fracture is known as the Boxers Fracture, due to number of boxers that used to get this break before gloves were used

[CD Lee]

Let me clarify...the last two knuckles meaning the pinky and the one next to it.

[Mojo]

As a general rule, Hsing-I uses the two middle knuckles. The ones between the index and pinky knuckles.
The pinky knuckle is not a good one to hit with.

[DarkKnight]

Striking w/ the last two or three knuckles is commomn in kung fu. It is very prevalent in systems that use the verticle fist like wing chun, snake style and many others.

[CD Lee]

Would not using the last two small knuckles be very bad for injuring the hand while striking?

I am open to the technique, but it seems like it would cause injuries in a real fight. Maybe you only contact a soft target area in the event that you use this fist.

So back to the chin shot...I guess the pinky knuckle is actually in the soft part of the chin, with the chin bone being at the middle knuckle where the power and shock will be transfered the most?

[GeneChing]

Our internal power special is on stands now - lots of xingyi (and bagua)

http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kunmag20novi.html

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[Waidan]

Getting all your critical Xingyi information from Jet Li, or perhaps Bruce Willis, is a good idea.

hehe ;)

[dedalus]

Taiji's snap punch uses those last two knuckles (in fact it seems like there's a taiji attack for almost every hard prominence on the body!). Generally the punch is a sternum punch, so I dont know how it would sit on the chin, but perhaps the fa-jing recoil also protects the knuckles. A boxer would be more likely to drive through.

I bet Sam Wiley would know about this one :D

[Crimson Phoenix]

Good comment, dedalus...I want to add that in fujian white crane there also is a punch with an upward wipping motion of the wrist that strikes with these last two knuckles, and like in the taiji punch previously described it strikes the solar plexus, at the very base of the sternum where it's all tender and not protected by muscles.
This punch can also be used to hit the chin FROM UNDER with the same whipping motion that prevents a drive through and that makes the teeth hit each others real hard (ouch).
You can also attack the areas between the pubis and the leg, where the femoral artery passes, eventhough this place is better attacked with a phoenix eye fist or a spear hand...
This punch definitely exists, but as everybody stated it is not to be used on any target, rather on specific ones.

Good training!!
Phoenix

[les paul]

If I'm not mistaken that was a Beng Chuan. I don't normally buy martial art magizines, but at the local super market, I looked through the magizine and saw the the article.

I'm not sure about oher styles of Xingyiquan, but the Beng quan I learned had three ways to strike with the fist (in Beng Quan)

1) The last two knuckles(alrady talked about)

2) The mass of the fist(already talked about when someone mentioned the middle two knuckles)

3) the upper two knuckles(index and middle) performed in the exact oppisite as no# 1, you snap your wrist downward into the target. You also use the same application with the lead hand for going up and over the defense to clear, except you pull/push downward with the lead hand then strike with the other hand. (or the same hand for that matter i.e. lead hand once it has cleared the defense)

[TaoBoxer]

If he is hitting the person in the face it is too high for beng chuan.

Internal Arts have a striking method where the fist is employed in various ways, depending on the reaction you wish to produce.

If you want to lift the person up, you can hit with a vertical fist with the top 2 knucles, pushing slightly down. As they fight the downward action, you roll your fist up and the last surface you're "hitting" with is the last knuckle.

[[Censored]]

Would not using the last two small knuckles be very bad for injuring the hand while striking?

Striking any hard surface with any part of your hand is extremely dangerous. Unless, of course, you've done it a million times before.

[Sam Wiley]

Actually, I DO know about this one...and from personal experience! :D

I do not advise using a fist that strikes with the last two knuckles to strike hard parts of the body or hard objects. I have twice struck hard objects (the first time an automobile and the second a refrigerator) in a fit of rage, and both times broken parts of my hand. Striking the van, I used the punch from the end of the thirds of the Taiji form, only driving instead of snapping, and broke several of the bones in the little finger side of my hand. It swelled up and although my jow took that and the horrible bruising away, the intense pain and grinding bones took months to heal. The second time, I struck an old metal refrigerator with that same hand, but with a roundhouse punch. I left my fist's imprint in the side of the thing, but broke my pinkie knuckle.

I learned several things from these two encounters with inanimate objects. First, I'm never going to do it again. Second, I am quite capable of moving 1000 lbs (literally) with a single punch. (The van actually rocked forward, and if it were in Neutral, may have rolled.) Third, the only thing I accomplished by expressing anger in such a way was breaking my hand, nothing at all positive about that, unless you count the realization that I'm not going through that again.

I have hit objects before with fa-jing, with my hand rebounding off the stone or whatever with no damage or scrapes. So it is possible to strike hard objects with fa-jing without sustaining damage. However, these times I meant to drive my hand right through, as if I were trying to drive my hand right through a person.

I have also chipped bones in my hand doing Bagua post striking exercises. And I wasn't even trying to hit hard! I just hit at a wrong angle.

In any case, I learned the hard way Yang Lu-chan's lesson about how the only men Taiji cannot defeat are made of iron, stone and wood.

On the upside, my right hand has fused back together fairly well, and I am of the opinion that, after testing the structure through striking, my right hand is actually now more stable. It actually feels more solid now.

But still, don't use those knuckles for striking hard parts of the bod. You can get injured.

*********

[bamboo_ leaf]

I was under the impression that in TC it’s not about how much power you can generate but how you can use a smaller power to control uproot a larger power.

Wouldn’t this also apply to the punch with the fist turning up slightly after initial impact (last 2 knuckles) making a very small circle to redirect the initial resistance to the punch using this to uproot and penetrate into the opponent’s body?

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I was under the impression Taiji was about winning in battle, and to that end all energies, from gross to subtle, need to be trained.

(I mean no offence Bamboo Leaf, this is just mischief ;) )

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Sam Wiley]

Bamboo Leaf,
Yes and no. You see, turning or snapping the fist is for direction of energy, and used on, for instance, the solar plexus, you can direct the shockwave into the heart using this upturning fist. However, you cannot transfer energy into inanimate objects the same way you do people, and thus the broken bones. I suppose that you could use this fist to anywhere on the head, which is fairly hard, since the head will move and the shock to your hand will not be so bad, but you can also strike those same places with your palm, which is what I recommend, since it's much more difficult to injure your heel palm than your knuckles. Structurally, it's just more sound. I get what you're saying, though.

In any case, I personally believe that we should train to strike with good pure physical strength as well. My reason for believing this is that although sheer physical strength does not prove skill, as the Classics say, until the internal skill is perfected we still may need it. Now, when I'm 80 and no longer need to use pure brute strength because I'm that good, I may say different.

*********

[bamboo_ leaf]

Depends, some like myself are really trying to understand the use and function of TC as dictated by TC classics based on the interpretation one chooses to follow.

Others might be more concerned with immediate effectiveness in the martial sense.

As to useing the last 2 knuckles i belive Wing Chun also uses this approch. :)

fall time

bamboo leaf

[brassmonkey]

"My reason for believing this is that although sheer physical strength does not prove skill, as the Classics say, until the internal skill is perfected we still may need it"

What translation is this from?

[HuangKaiVun]

In a real fight, a punch can land anywhere.

No matter how hard one practices his knuckle punches, it's all for naught if an opponent MOVES - which he will.

Just punch.

[GeneChing]

Jet Li was only the cover story to rope in the uninitiated (and coattail on the movie.) You'll find coverage of xingyi and bagua by masters and authors: Wang Shi Qing, Fukui Yang, Frank Allen, Wayne Carisi, Bob Feldman, Tao Jianyun, Bill Lewitt. Jet only makes some passing comments on the arts...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[Waidan]

Sorry Gene, actually I meant it as a joke. You guys put out a good product :)

[GeneChing]

Does that mean I should cancel my appointment with Willis? :confused:

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[TaoBoxer]

Hitting people and hitting boards or bricks is TOTALLY different. People are basically just big bags of water. You can send a wave of kinetic energy though that fluid that will totally raise hell with all the soft tissues. You can fracture solid organs this way, such as kidneys, liver, spleen, etc. Internal arts excell at this, but do not have a corner on the market by any means.

PS... Thankyou for the kind words, Gene.

[Waidan]

I've thought about that quite a lot. It's strange that some styles put so much emphasis on practicing board & brick breaking techniques. The best way to hit a piece of wood isn't going to be the best way to hit a human body. Hard to imagine two more dissimilar targets, really.

[Longquan]

This is the way I practice both armed and unarmed techniques. Unsupported fluid-filled bags make great targets for unarmed striking and armed cutting practice. Just passing through...

Longuan
longquan88@hotmail.com

[phipsi229]

The explanation my Shrfu gave me on why we hit with the last two knuckles in Hsing-I was bone alignment through the hand, wrist and forearm. Try this - make a fist and place it flat against a wall. The 4th and 5th metacarpals (the last two bones in the hand) line up almost directly with the ulna and radius in the arm. When striking with the last two knuckles, the force is absorbed through the length of the bones in the hand and arm rather than being applied across an angle, making your punch stronger and decreasing the chance of breaking a bone. Palm strikes are also very effective because the force of the blow is borne by the ulna and radius which are much stronger than the bones of the hand.

It is true that a break in the fifth metacarpal is called a boxer break because boxers were more likely to break their hands than the average joe. I do not know if this can be explained by poor technique, poor conditioning, or the fact that boxers pound people in the head more often and more frequent breaks occur simply due to more opportunities.

We practice our knuckle pushups using the last 2 or 3 knuckles to improve the bone strength. Hsing-I is my first experience in a striking art, so I have no idea how other arts punch. We do some punches using the first two knuckles, but they are not as common.

"Lord, what fools these mortals be."