Wha Lum 3rd Form

[Donkwoon]

Yet another Wha Lum question, this time about 3rd form.

I have'nt learned it from my sifu yet but have been going over it from a vid so that I'll have a leg up on it when the time comes.

After the first hurricane kick, you drop down and then slide backwards on your rear end with your legs spread apart just like in Lo Han fist but then you go into "indian" style sitting instead of doing kicks from the ground like in Lo Han fist. Just wondering what folks here thought about this move and what it means or how it should really be done.

Also, after that you get up from sitting and jump into a double kick. Should you uncross your legs first or just jump after raising from "indian" sitting?

Just wondering.

[flem]

hi donkwoon.

what form are you learning now?

i assume that you are asking what the indian style posture can be used for???
They say that you train the forms and they just come out as you need them. i have found this to be true on many occasions, in fact, i personally believe that when they don't , they simply haven't been trained enough. along the same lines, i also feel strongly that this is the reason moves are repeated throughout one's style AND the reason that you find similar movements that are changed just a little, as well as having different movements leading up to and following them.

Although i only know of the two forms with that rear slide, in lohan, the feet are used to parry incoming attacks. once whan sparring, i used the drawing in of the feet in 3rd form to trap my my opponents leg. because he was directly above as i rose up, the pyramid shape of my arms prevented his counter, as i attacked with the clasped fingers. (didn't do the kick, i was pretty stunned at the revelation)

the kick is supposed to be done straight from the floor( no uncrossing of the feet)
i find that the second you contemplate how quick you need to be to pull it off- you have already blown it. if you just do it as if you have done it for years, it works.

[Donkwoon]

I've not attended any regular classes for several years now. I try to attend seminars at my sifu's kwoon twice a year if I can and so the order of learning is not exactly what you would expect in your avarage Wha Lum school (I think). Not to mention the mixing of styles.

I just learned Kwondo and this Winter/Spring I hope to finish up 36 hands.

I couldn't help but wonder about the nature of that move because of the absance of any kicks after the slide but your answer made sense. Thank you, that was a good response.

[Donkwoon]

That's interesting. I did not know that about Wah Lum's history. Is there a known reason as to why the Grandmaster was not taught the applications?

I guess some moves are just more practical then others and that's fine with me. Every now and then, I come across one that really get's me thinking and to be honest, I have learned quite a bit about the Wah Lum forms from watching folks from other styles explain their forms.

[Corwyn]

Unfortunately Wah Lum does not teach applications because it is a forms based system and the grand teacher was never taught the fighting aspect of the system. The teachers in the style are/were told to figure out the applications on their own. This was told to me and many senior teachers above me. Any applications were dreamed up... sorry! And I challenge to see any of your applications.



With all due respect, based on my 2 years in Wah Lum, visiting several other schools besides the one I train at, and having become friends with a few higher ranks who have trained with Master Chan at least once a year in the past 3-5 years, I would have to firmly disagree! :confused:


While none of the schools I've been to including mine is what I would consider particularly aggressive or puts the primary emphasis on sparing/fighting, EVERYTHING I've done in the system and in every class I've been to has addressed application!!! I am yet to meet any advanced student in my school to whom I could walk up and ask the application of a particular part of a form I am working on, as I have done many times, and not get a clear and immediate answer. It's also pretty amazing that a person I met through work who attends yet another school is given the same description for applications. :cool: Go figure.

I can not comment on 3rd form because while I've seen it once or twice hanging around watching the advanced class I do not know it.

c

[Yao Sing]

Wow, for a minute there I thought I stepped on a time warp and dropped back a few years.

A post by flem and yu shan claiming Wah Lum doesn't teach any applications. I thought this was cleared up a long time ago. Guess not.

It's just a jump to the left .....

[Yao Sing]

Oh, and welcome back flem. Now leave before you get totally frustrated with the crap that poses as discussion around here. :-)

donkwoon
The crossed leg sitting is a leg trap and the jump is done without uncrossing the legs. Hope that helps.

And for the record I learned the yong fa for that series from a little old chinese guy that hangs around the Temple claiming to be the Grandmaster. :-)

[spiralstair]

yu shun wrote:
And I challenge to see any of your applications.

Define see please. Do you mean like, you show me yours and I'll show you mine?

Do you mean, choreographed in a two person, practiced over and over manner?

Do you mean, you sit and decide if the app. fits your highly evolved definition of true Tang Lang?

Or do you mean, one to one, cross-style free flowing match that ends in a private agreement of whose apps. hurt more?

Or maybe it was just the same old resentments still motivating your world view.

[shuaichiao]

. Unfortunately Wah Lum does not teach applications because it is a forms based system and the grand teacher was never taught the fighting aspect of the system. The teachers in the style are/were told to figure out the applications on their own. This was told to me and many senior teachers above me. Any applications were dreamed up... sorry! And I challenge to see any of your applications.


Now that's funny! I learned Wah Lum from Chan Pui's Brother Nelson. I learned plenty of good applications from him. I also heard hundreds of stories about when he was learning in Hong Kong from the previous Sigung Chan Wan Ching. About how he was a gang leader in hong kong and they used to get in fights all the time and how when he was running the style they emphasised fighting way more than forms. I would agree that Chan Pui has changed the emphasis of the style to be more performance based but claiming that he and other senior members of the style never learned to fight is kind of ignorant and just plain wrong. It is however common for CMA masters not to teach students they don't particularly care for anything. They'll just string you along and take your money until you finally quit or if you're stupid enough to stick around long enough they will let you believe you've "learned the system" and send you on your way. SO maybe your problem was that master Chan just didn't like you.

[mantid1]

I try to stay off to stay off of the forums....but

I think it would not be a fair assessment to say that all wl schools do not teach fighting or apps.

I also think that it may be a little presumptuous the think the grandmaster of the system has no idea of how the fighting applications of the system work.

I am sure he has had as many "real life" scuffles as many of the insturctors out there. I see not bragging about them as a virtue.

I have been able to spend a little time with the Grand Master. Even though I am not his student he was very happy to answer ANY question on application out of any form that I had. Part of the reason may have been because I had a note book and wrote down all of the details he had given me. I am sure he wont waste his time teaching something he knows a student wont remember one hour after the class.

Forms are for training....other than developing some speed, cardio and timing they will not make you a better fighter in any system. Same with two person drills if not taught properly.

Most mantis systems are forms based. Some just take drills out of the form and I think it would be very hard to prove who develped the drills out of forms in any system, unless we knew the person and then it may be considered dreaming up forms or apps.

In his history book he describes his thoughts on fighting and I have to agree with his statements in the book 100% He basically states that he offered fighting classes and only 10% of the student base wants to train for it and less than that stay for an extended period of time after the cuts, breaks, dislocations and extra traning it takes to become a skilled fighter. He also stated that tournament sparring (at the time....70's) was to controled and was not close to what a real fight would be.

I am about to stop my fighting classes myself....less than 10% want to do it and a few of them are out at any given time due to injuries...its just not worth it. I will stick to the drills and self defense...much safer and better for business...but I will let the students know this is not "real fighting".

I cross train with as many different people from as many different styles as possible. I feel there is a lot of good things to learn out there from different instructors and styles. If I dwell on the negative...well...I would just become a negative person.

[Corwyn]

I didn't realize there was history here. I'm glad to hear I wasn't off base.

[Yao Sing]

Nice post mantid1.

Back to the apps, it doesn't HAVE to be a leg trap either. It's actually a pretty good way of getting your legs under you without having to shift your weight around too much. Just pull your legs in and launch.

Of course us larger Meiguo Ren will have a bit more trouble than the smaller and lighter Chinese guys.

Now in comparison to the same move in Lohan you'll see that Third Form has a more aggressive approach to dealing with this situation. Lohan is more defensive, concentrating on getting you back on your feet.

In both cases I see it as getting dumped on your butt after the kick followed by the Crotch Stomp and grab.

Now the double Toe Kicks are to the eyes while the hands are pushing the head down into the kicks. Done correctly you won't be forced backwards by the kick (a common explanation of why it won't work) and you will be able to land in Wu Dip Ma (you can stop wondering about the app for Wu Dip Ma now).

No doubt that's a tough one. I think a knee to the chin would be a better choice than toes to the eyes provided the range is correct. There are quite a few things that can be done with these moves. Keep in mind (talking to beginners here) you don't have to follow the sequence exactly.

[flem]

Thanks for the welcome for all who have.

YuShan, yushan, yushan. I told you long ago that MC taught me apps, it is funny how anything positive, or outside your idea of what does and does not go on in WL misses you.
Let me address the lack of visibility of apps though. I have, on many occasions, been in situations where i have "seen" an app, as in a counter and held back. i have also sparred people from different styles AND in the same light, held back. Why? I don't know if I will ever have to confront this person in a real life situation, or a person that knows them and share ideas of what i do.
I like what you all do alot. But as with everything else it has it's limitations. The first and main one that i see is being frozen into how a particular skill "has" to be done and especially why, i think this is really most limiting when you are confonted with another style. one other (and i have more) is that two person sets limit your thinking, not just making you a drone of sorts, but what about a three or four person situation, weapons, etc.?

peace

[Chop Socki]

No Corwyn, your response and the sharing of your experiences was quite on point, thanks for taking the time.

In most cases, sweeping generalizations are a sign that someone harbors ill will and has lost their ability to be accurate and reasonable. This case is no different; the belief that one can make broad statements about 'all schools' or 'all sifus' is patently rediculous. Wah Lum standardizes the material at lower levels, so that everyone can achieve a good foundation and master the fundamentals. At higher levels, the material can be tailored to a variety of things such as personal interest or body style. The emphasis you see in a class though, relies heavily on the interests of the person teaching it. In fact, I've taken classes at the same Wah Lum school that were drastically different from each other because they were taught by different people, and that's a common occurrance at the Temple.

Is it 'effective'? That's for each student to decide for themselves. No system contains magical 'universal truths', though I believe that all of them offer a path to enlightenment if they are pursued with sincerity and enthusiasm.

As for me? While a great deal more knowledge lies ahead of me than behind me, I have no complaints. In fact, this 'forms based system' has served me well fighting both nationally and internationally. Perhaps my oponents felt sorry for my lack of exposure to applications and took pity on me for suffering through years of training in a system where the Grandmaster knows only performance. :rolleyes:

Practice! Practice!

- CS

[sillyme136]

sum lo kuen is a great form ..especially with the jump splitz and falling down on the concrete with your forearm.. feelz good..haha..but anywayz thats a winning form ..when i used to compete i beat everybody..

[sillyme136]

Nice post mantid1.

Back to the apps, it doesn't HAVE to be a leg trap either. It's actually a pretty good way of getting your legs under you without having to shift your weight around too much. Just pull your legs in and launch.

Of course us larger Meiguo Ren will have a bit more trouble than the smaller and lighter Chinese guys.

Now in comparison to the same move in Lohan you'll see that Third Form has a more aggressive approach to dealing with this situation. Lohan is more defensive, concentrating on getting you back on your feet.

In both cases I see it as getting dumped on your butt after the kick followed by the Crotch Stomp and grab.

Now the double Toe Kicks are to the eyes while the hands are pushing the head down into the kicks. Done correctly you won't be forced backwards by the kick (a common explanation of why it won't work) and you will be able to land in Wu Dip Ma (you can stop wondering about the app for Wu Dip Ma now).

No doubt that's a tough one. I think a knee to the chin would be a better choice than toes to the eyes provided the range is correct. There are quite a few things that can be done with these moves. Keep in mind (talking to beginners here) you don't have to follow the sequence exactly.

to my personal opinion the wu dip ma, double toe kick ..those are just to get your leg strength and as for wu dip ma to get your knee flexible..but i could be wrong ..i'm not a mantis professional ..lolz but i just the love sum lo kuen.. one of my favorite forms