open hand vrs closed

[Black Jack II]

Closed fist vrs Open hand strikes-

It's a topic of debate you see on a number of occasions. It is my view that under the initial shock reaction of a sudden fight, due to the body's response to its unaccustomed stress, confusion and anxiety, that most people, including trained open hand strikers or people who train in styles which mostly use open hand techniques, will revert to a melee of closed fist blows.

You can see a lot of this instinctive reaction in the form of the countless reality vids on youtube and its ilk and I do think it applies to martial artists as well because no matter what you actually experiance in terms of standard school based training, most of it comes down to the body's natural center of reaction and for a lot of normal people that is sheer out punching in times of stress.

I do believe that after a fighter has created either some brief physical control or some pyschological space in his head after the initial onslaught, if he is still standing that is, that more and better striking methods can be used. I also think strikes can be better gauged on what specific technique to be used if selected in a pre-emptive fashion.

Either way there are always many exceptions to anything, but for people who train contextually, and those who may not work in a high stress enviroment what focus do you put on closed vrs open hand strikes and the viewpoint above??:)

[WinterPalm]

I would imagine that in whichever way you train, that is what will come out when you are suddenly attacked. I find that there are certain upward angles that are more conducive to the striking surface of the palm of the hand or knife ridge. Knuckles have a good piercing element to them which changes the striking definately.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think that ppl tend to go to the fist unless they have trained to use open hand techniques to the point that the training has become internalized and reactionary. i don't think just having trained is enough. it has to be at a certain level. although i don't know if i would say its an instinct to use fists. i would say more of a socialized response. i would think environment dictates it given that from a very young age the paradigm of fighting is punching. although the fist makes a terrible club. too many little things in it to break. palm striking is much safer for the striker in regards to protecting the hand from structural damage. thats why guys who punch really hard (boxers, kick boxers, thai fighters, etc. ) wrap their hands. keeps it all compact so the bones and ligaments and what not stay where they are supposed to.

[SevenStar]

Not just that, but the bones of the hand are fragile. hand vs skull - hand usually loses. That's why target choice is important. body shots are great with a fist. the nose and cheek areas are good too.

[xcakid]

I have the unfortuante experience of getting into a fight a few times since I started martial arts. I recall on 2 occasions where I did not use a fully closed fist to start my attack.

One instance was a bar fight. Started by my loud mouth ex-GF.....long story and not pertinent to this thread. Anyways, the opponent hand his right hand in a choke hold aroung my neck. Spouting of expletives and description of what he was going to do to me. As he was ready to punch me with the other hand, I hit him with a leopard fist on the throat. Peeled off his hand guiding him to the floor kicking him in the ribs. Continued to drop down and pummel him. That is the most ever violent encounter I have ever been. Earned me a chauffered ride dntn for that, courtesy of the OC Sherriffs Dept. :(

The other instance, not sure how it started, but I do recall poking him in the eyes 3 stooges style then running to my car and speeding off. I remember that one cause I still laugh about it to this day :D Bet the guy wasn't expecting that. Don't quite recall how it started, but it was at a restaurant. I don't believe I paid for the tab either. No punches were exchanged. Just words. When he got to an agressive stand I just did a quick poke in the eyes and ran off.

So I guess as black jack II said, "most of it comes down to the body's natural center of reaction."

[PangQuan]

finger jab to eyes?

i hope you have a video before you get your @ss creamed out for not supplying documented proof that this type of technique is real.

j/k of course :p

[Black Jack II]

i would say more of a socialized response.

Nice point. That is what I am trying to kinda get at. I think its a ingrained western social response.


although the fist makes a terrible club.

I agree that the palm can be much more stable but I think the fist gets a worse reputation in this regard than it should. Using proper training a closed fist can still be a very good tool to headhunt with in a few regards.

A lot of it has to do with regarding how you work the bag, not using wraps as much to handicap yourself, next would be the position of your own head when striking. Keeping your head slightly lower than your opponents tends to help striking alignment and its a old bare knuckle boxing method, so instead of using downward angles which can cause a lot of damage on the attackers skull, the strikes are coming from a crunched position of power often upward.

I am not saying you rise when you punch though, you bleed out some power this way, how I was taught was to act like a weight is kinda pressing down on your head. Plus good old genetics is a key to, some guys can punch others in the head all day long and nothing, some guys do it once and there goes the hand, then of course chosing to hit the right targets on the head if you can.

The jaw, nose, eye, temple, ear, freakin neck.

[Oso]

almost all of our (my school only, not necessarily PL in general) contact drills are fist oriented.

K. Brazier has said to me that most [basic] mantis striking is fist as well and that those practicing other things first are not right. {that's a definite paraphrase, K. if you read this please correct if necessary}

In the mantis i've seen through PL (Master Shi, John S. and K. Brazier) I've not seen too much striking that is not directed to basic, generally accepted 'good' targets: head, neck, solar plexus, ribs over liver and spleen (not to attack the organs...there's not much meat over the ribs in those spots), Tband on the legs, knees if you're being nasty and ankle sweeps.

i teach straight, round/hook, uppercut and hammer strikes first. There is some palm heel to face and some side chopping to neck. The side chopping tends to become forearm to side of neck at anything but long range...but that will work for you. The hammer strikes are very contextual in that it takes more precise relationships between you and your opponent to have one be available...i.e. you need to be higher in elevation than your opponent. I do think that some of the fan che type movements can deliver a hella strong hammer to the neck/shoulder/collarbone area but the time needed to execute means it's lower %.
I don't teach hammers for use in a sport (san shou) context though.

in SD scenarios, I do teach the palm strike to the ear though...oh, and one technique where you slap the eyes with the palm, but it could also be done with a fist.

and, the basic reason I've moved to this is that i agree with the stipulations posed in your post.

[Black Jack II]

Bet the guy wasn't expecting that.

Nice, in both those situations you were able to go pre-emptive, in which case you chose which tools to use. The one thing with pre-emptive as you showcase is that it can land you in trouble if viewed wrong.

Still its a very important concept.

The hammer strikes are very contextual-Oso

Hammers were used a lot in boxing in the old days, helped the fighters save there hands after so many rounds. They called them choppers and then later in the 20's some underground or small circuit fighters nicknamed them sluggers after the baseball bat.

[Oso]

The jaw, nose, eye, temple, ear, freakin neck.

yep.

when we work drills with round/hook punches the target is always the ear.

given that most of the time you don't hit 'exactly' where you are aiming, i think that this is a good general target to aim for. a little low and behind gets the base of the skull, high and ahead of the ear is the temple and low and ahead of the ear is the jaw joint.

and, since eye poking was brought up (20 lashes for you, friend ;) ) you don't have to actually poke the eyeball itself to get someone to close the eye or lose vision short term... a fist to the eyeball works just fine

[Oso]

Hammers were used a lot in boxing in the old days, helped the fighters save there hands after so many rounds. They called them choppers and then later in the 20's some underground or small circuit fighters nicknamed them sluggers after the baseball bat.

curious. was there an 'illegal' target for them? they are illegal in pro/am boxing these days aren't they?


'choppers' is also interesting in that the most common CMA term for any hammer type strike is 'pi' or 'chopping' whether it's a fist or a palm type 'judo chop!' :D

[Black Jack II]

given that most of the time you don't hit 'exactly' where you are aiming, i think that this is a good general target to aim for.

Oso. I heard a boxing quote once that said aim for the throat if you want to hit him in the jaw.:D


curious. was there an 'illegal' target for them?

The strike from what I know, just like cma choppers was headhunting. I don't know of any illegal closed fist targets zones back then at all, there were rules concerning ranges of combat and which tools to be used that way, but not with closed hand strikes I believe.


'choppers' is also interesting in that the most common CMA term for any hammer type strike is 'pi' or 'chopping'

There is some very loose theory that hsing I boxing had some influence from old western bareknucklers or that the reverse was true. From what I understand is that Hsing I has some interesting movements similar to old bare knuckle in its stomping and so forth.

[Oso]

so they were aiming for the top of the head with a hammer?

gotta go...lunch break over...

[xcakid]

finger jab to eyes?

i hope you have a video before you get your @ss creamed out for not supplying documented proof that this type of technique is real.

j/k of course :p

I have proof of lineage:

Larry
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Curly
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Moe
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TCM TV Station
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XCAKID.

:D

[lkfmdc]

The fist vs. the open hand:

While the closed fist certainly has the capability of inflicting damage upon an opponent, there is also the very real possibility that striking with the closed fist may result in a broken hand. Examining the anatomy of the hand and with many anecdotes about hand injuries (certainly a common story in the world of Western boxing), some martial artists have proclaimed the closed hand an ineffective striking method for self defense. I embrace a somewhat different view on the role of the closed fist in the martial arts training.

First and foremost, learning to box (in this case the term “boxing” is used as a blanket term to describe the use the closed fist, not necessarily the Western sport variant) introduces the student to important martial arts concepts. The student becomes familiar with angles of attack, learns the importance of combinations, and develops a number of important tactics including evasion, intercepting, faking and feinting. All of these concepts can be applied to fighting with the open hand. In fact, as this book will show, San Da has open hand equivalents of almost all its closed fist techniques which can be used in a self defense situation.

Second, there is no question that, despite the risk of injury to the hand, in the modern world most attackers will use the closed fist. In the Western world in particular, the average attacker will in fact utilize at least to some degree a form of boxing. Thus, learning to box allows the student to understand one of the most common methods they will have defend against.

Finally, to a certain extent the idea that in a real self defense situation any and all methods available to the student should be used. A broken hand would be a small price to pay compared to survival.

Everyday training and a self defense situation are very different experiences. In a self defense situation, a single blow may provide the opportunity for escape. In training, the student of course performs the same strikes many times. For this reason, hand wraps and gloves are worn in training to prevent injury to the hand.

[No_Know]

I might have thought that they were both tools. Each with favorable aspects for certain situations.

Delivery, Training, Development, Panic, Reaction, Comprehension and skill might play into which gets used when.

A person might have preferences or beliefs as to which to use that moment. Some have no choice as they just Do (although training or lack there of will be indicated).

I might punch, but without comprehension might not compensate at all or properly for landing on a live subject or moving target or undetermined surface ressistance, or the such.

..............................................clos ed........................................open

reach/range......................longest................ .....................shortest

effect................................stun/shock................................stun/shock

surface.............................Focused (nuckles)......................localized dispersion

penetration......................shallow/deep.............................shallow

type.................................blow/press/push........................blow/press/push


Perhaps somesuch some might say.

I No_Know

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think also it depends who you are striking. if i need to keep my hoes in line and make sure they gimme my money i use an open hand (preferably the back of the open hand) to slap. you cant go around bruising your hoes with fists. thats just wrong.

Gotta keep that pimp hand strong.

[Black Jack II]

so they were aiming for the top of the head with a hammer

Not so much the top of the head. Think nose, eye, temple, general face area to inflict trauma.

As for closed hand vrs open hand, you can mess up your open hand as well. Anytime you are bashing someone with one of your extremities you could risk injury. With proper skeletal structure, using the bones that are stronger along a major axis, proper wrist alignment and so forth, a closed fist can offer some great service, in specific I think it offers better distance than a palm strike.

[Oso]

No_Know!!!! wuzzup?


Not so much the top of the head. Think nose, eye, temple, general face area to inflict trauma.

ok...check. that's why I say the hammer is dependant on positioning than the others...it's moving in a vertical way and needs a more horizontally oriented target. I still don't generally talk about hitting the face with it...base of neck and collarbone against a standing opponent.



Bruce:

'Biotch Slap' = Yang Zhang gotta make sure your waist jing is in good order though

:D


and, I know ya'll were all concerned about the rest of my work day but...everything is ok now...i'm home with a pint of 11% Russian Imperial Stout, some gorganzola and Ritz crackers...it's friday and all is well. :)

[SevenStar]

Nice, in both those situations you were able to go pre-emptive, in which case you chose which tools to use. The one thing with pre-emptive as you showcase is that it can land you in trouble if viewed wrong.

Still its a very important concept.

The hammer strikes are very contextual-Oso

Hammers were used a lot in boxing in the old days, helped the fighters save there hands after so many rounds. They called them choppers and then later in the 20's some underground or small circuit fighters nicknamed them sluggers after the baseball bat.


it was also called a bolo. fillipino boxers were notorious for them.

[SevenStar]

ok...check. that's why I say the hammer is dependant on positioning than the others...it's moving in a vertical way and needs a more horizontally oriented target. I still don't generally talk about hitting the face with it...base of neck and collarbone against a standing opponent.


not necessarily. a typical hammer is vertical. In my tang soo do days, we used something called a bottom fist - it was a horizontal hammer fist. great for striking the neck, cheek, etc.

the bolo I was referring to is diagonal - along the same path a diagonal elbow would be, or for FMA purposes, an angle one strike.

[The Willow Sword]

We are seeing that in the MMA realm that the open hand is prevailing in the initial confrontations. You have alot more versatility with open handed strikes and grabs than you do with a fist. The fist seems to be a finishing move anyway in the MMA realm. In the street fighting realm the fists seem to be the strike of choice,however i think it is the whole point behind most of the CMA in this world that the palm overcomes the fist(hence the Shaolin Bow). As for me personally, In Xingyi you have a relaxed opened hand and you also use fists for those crushing blows to the body(vital points etc etc). I find that in sparring my hands are open most of the time but my fingers are in close(i learned early on that a careless open hand can lead to jammed and even cracked fingers.)

SO i say Empty Hand prevails because it has more versatility whereas the fist can do only one thing.

Peace,TWS

[SevenStar]

curious. was there an 'illegal' target for them? they are illegal in pro/am boxing these days aren't they?


'choppers' is also interesting in that the most common CMA term for any hammer type strike is 'pi' or 'chopping' whether it's a fist or a palm type 'judo chop!' :D

like I mentioned above, it's an FMA #1 strike. Ceferino Garcia (The guy credited with inventing the punch) patterned it after the way he used his machette to chop down shrubs and such.

it had tremendous power and was very fast, resulting in many KOs. Garcia has over 100 wins on his record, though I don't know how many of his 67 KOs were from his bolo. He did use it to KO an opponent and win the title belt though.

[Black Jack II]

it was also called a bolo. fillipino boxers were notorious for them.

Seven,

Thats not technically the traditional bolo punch.

As you mentioned, Ceferino Garcia was said to have invented the bolo punch. The verison I have seen is a wide swinging uppercut like one is cutting cane, its based off the bolo knife and how it comes up from the ground. The other verison that most people call the bolo punch looks more like a really short overhand on a number one line.

Here is a pic of a bolo punch by Ceferino Garcia.

http://www.babao-arnis.com/cgarcia3.jpg

This boxer a cuban who also used the bolo to cut cane, also had a bolo punch named after him and it was different than Ceferino's. Looking through old papers it talks about him using it as an upper cut to the heart.

http://www.pixhost.com/PIXL/LEONARD/gavilan100.JPG

[Oso]

ok...semantics at play here i think.

the #1 as I learned it via Precas' 'Modern Arnis' would coincide with the way I teach to attack the neck/collerbone area with a 'pi' type strike via 'knife' hand or fist.

imo, a 'vertical' hammer has limited power and a plain old jab is stronger. however, if you get caught on the inside with your arms up...essentially you are 'hammering'...it's just not that strong.

so, i think we are talking the same here, Seven.

but it appears Black, has us by age and can reference a decade or more before us. ;D ( i know, that's not going to work but it's what fits )

as far as a 'bolo'...why isn't that just an 'upward' strike? call it an upper cut or what have you but a shot-from-lower-than-him-angling-upwards by any other name...is just the reciprocal angle of return from a #1 or #2????

or...any overhand hook that missed and return on the reciprocal with the other hand?

by the time I got to what Precas was teaching that strike would have been referred to as just 'upward cutting' or maybe an abinico type move up from a downward strike.

[rogue]

What, no one does wrist strikes? They're good for in close sneaky fun.

[Oso]

yea...but you have to have done a lot of pushups on the backs of your hands...


and, yes, I used to do lots, all, my pushups on the backs of my hands...about 1995-2000 or so...it is a mantis staple after all. :)

[rogue]

Naw, you don't have to do all that to get them working, just hit a bag or focus mitt. You don't do pushups on your elbows do you?:D

I've been using these in practice and I'm always a little surprised at how good they work against the right targets.

[Oso]

depends on your wrist strength...you are striking with the back of the hand near the wrist, right? while most of the strike should impact bone on bone, if you slip to far forward on the hand you need wrist strength to hold the hand in position and not bend too far in to the wrist press position.

also, the pushup I'm talking about starts on the backs of the hands and as you press up, roll to the knuckles and then as you relax downwards again, roll back to the wrist.

[Black Jack II]

There really are two different bolo punches, both are hookercut punches. A hookercut punch being a combination of two punches in a way to breed a different animal.

The FMA inspired Ceferino Garcia bolo punch some consider to be a gimmick style punch which works on circular motion and not full body displacement. Personally I don't like that style of punch as it seems to put my shoulder at a odd angle and it feels weak to me.

The "Kid" Gavilan bolo punch was a little later from the 40's and he learned the movement cutting cane in cuba but its a combo uppercut/hook punch which is a full body weight swing. I like this one a lot better but it looks a little goofy sometimes.

Macario Flores is another boxer from the 20's, even before Ceferino who had what some termed a bolo punch but its said he learned it from throwing the bolo and not cutting cane.

Here is a pic of some peeps cutting cane in Cuba. It looks like some are using the upswing and some are using the downswing at different times.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/q7885e/q7885e01.jpg

There are a number of different bolo knifes, but here is a military verison.

http://website.lineone.net/~hollis_wood/doughweb/weapons/collinsbolo.jpg


as far as a 'bolo'...why isn't that just an 'upward' strike

In the Gavilan method it is in a way, think a deep swinging uppercut/hook punch with a good deal of body swing behind it. Where a normal uppercut is more of a classical movement.

[Oso]

makes sense...in the work aspect of cutting cane one would certainly need to economize motion and work on one motion definitely flowing in to the other so as to not use more energy than needed.

i've done a lot of landscaping and other work requiring cutting including cutting survey lines...bushaxes are fun!

[SevenStar]

Seven,

Thats not technically the traditional bolo punch.

As you mentioned, Ceferino Garcia was said to have invented the bolo punch. The verison I have seen is a wide swinging uppercut like one is cutting cane, its based off the bolo knife and how it comes up from the ground. The other verison that most people call the bolo punch looks more like a really short overhand on a number one line.

Here is a pic of a bolo punch by Ceferino Garcia.

http://www.babao-arnis.com/cgarcia3.jpg

This boxer a cuban who also used the bolo to cut cane, also had a bolo punch named after him and it was different than Ceferino's. Looking through old papers it talks about him using it as an upper cut to the heart.

http://www.pixhost.com/PIXL/LEONARD/gavilan100.JPG

I know about that punch - that's not it. I may have the wrong guy. there are actually three punches with this name. there is the uppercut bolo, the downward I am referring to and the feint / jab that sugar ray leonard used

[Black Jack II]

there is the uppercut bolo

This is Kid Gavilans.


the downward I am referring to

This is the fma one and I believe its Ceferino Garcia. You see him showcasing the end result of it in this picture. Though he is old.


feint / jab that sugar ray leonard used

Not sure where he got this. Maybe its the one Macario Flores invented which was more jab based.

[rogue]

depends on your wrist strength...you are striking with the back of the hand near the wrist, right? while most of the strike should impact bone on bone, if you slip to far forward on the hand you need wrist strength to hold the hand in position and not bend too far in to the wrist press position.

also, the pushup I'm talking about starts on the backs of the hands and as you press up, roll to the knuckles and then as you relax downwards again, roll back to the wrist.

Horizontal strike hitting with the big bone on the thumb side, to the neck for example.

[Oso]

you mean a ridge hand? then we're talking about different things. :D

if I'm able to throw that type of strike, i'm morelikely to hit with the forearm i think...then clinch.

[rogue]

It's not a ridge hand, you hit with the radius and your palm is facing sort of up. I'll have to find either a picture or the Chinese name of the technique.:cool:

[Oso]

congratulations...you've completely lost me...wrist...big bone on the thumb side...but with your palm facing up?????

[LeeCasebolt]

We are seeing that in the MMA realm that the open hand is prevailing in the initial confrontations.

Where are we seeing this? Outside of the original Pancrase rules, and similar limited-rules structures where closed fists to the head are prohibited, I don't recall seeing the open hand as the prevalent striking method.