Question For lkfmdc On Traditional Chinese Styles

[FlyingCrane]

At last count, there are around 500 forms of wrestling around the world, from different cultures, climates, time periods and affiliated with even different religions. Many never had any chance to cross polinate with other styles, YET share many of the same movements ie throws and locks....

Because all human beings have arms, legs, a head and joints arranged in the same way, the same techniques will be developed over time. It's that simple. There is only what works and what doesn't


lkfmdc,
I started a new thread based on the comments that you posted to me here because they bring up some other things that I have been looking at.

You make some very good points here. Perhaps I am still somewhat brainwashed by my early induction into Chinese martail arts. We literally had it pounded into our heads that the root of all Japanese, Okinawin, and Korean fighting styes was to be found in the "superior" Chinese systems.

Although I am starting to try and widen my perspectives on this, when I look at, for example, good Shuai Chiao, and then look at good Jujutsu or good Hapkido, etc., even when I step back from my perhaps somewhat "brainwashed" perspective that I got from my early Chinese martial arts instructors, I must say that the Shuai Chiao system and techniques as a whole, seem far more complete, comprehensive, and, quite frankly, more effective than the Jujutsu or Hapkido systems. I have also noticed this when looking objectively at, let's say as another example, good Tiger Claw Kung Fu, good Shotokan Karate, and good Tae Kwon Do. There are similaraties in all three systems, but the Tiger Claw system seems again to be more complete, comprehensive, and more effective.

You have mentioned that your early background was in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, among other things. You have also mentioned that your background in various Chinese styles is extensive, under several different teachers. Looking back on it all now, as someone who is now more into the MMA world, do you see major flaws in the idea that traditional Chinese styles are generally superior to other fighting styles?

[SevenStar]

shuai chiao has no ground work. jujutsu does. they both have striking and locking. Why does SC seem superior to you? shuai chiao has what, 40 throws? Judo has 67. including the ground stuff, there are 99 techniques. that doesn't include the strikes.

the thing about good karate is that it is hard to come by. One of the better fighters I know was born and raised in kumamoto. pure karate guy, but it doesn't look like the karate we are used to seeing. He sidesteps a lot and is very fluid.

[PangQuan]

so then SC has bout 300 more throws than Judo?

just curious, i dont know either.

[MasterKiller]

I think perhaps there are 400 or more variations of SC throws, but Judo could say the same.

There are a billion ways to throw people, depending on all the factors of the situation, but there are only so many principles invovled in those billion throws.

[PangQuan]

ah... i was wondering how many differnt ways there really are to throw people.


thats a crazy amount of throws to remember

[bodhitree]

I think perhaps there are 400 or more variations of SC throws, but Judo could say the same.




Exactly, ippon seoi from a sleeve grip, ippon seoi from a lapel grip, drop ippon from a sleeve grip, drop i......

[bodhitree]

There are more than 61 different categories (some share the same principle) of throws in SC:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2550/scprinciplehg6.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scprinciplehg6.jpg)


Dude, that's a menu:(

[lkfmdc]

In short, NO, there is nothing "special" about Chinese martial art. If you look hard enough and find the right stuff, you can find the same qualities in arts as diverse as Japanese, Korean, French, Filipino, Russian, Brazilian, Native North American, African, etc...

There is only the "good" and the "bad", there is only what works and what doesn't.....

But it is also a matter of "flavor"

I'll disagree with 7 Star for a minute, neither Shuai Jiao nor Judo is better, and even listing what kind of techniques or how many techniques and such doesn't get you any closer to the heart of the matter

Shuai Jiao has as many throws as Judo. There are more throws in Judo than the Kodokan officially recognizes as well. The real difference is that the throws most commony trained and used in Chang lineage Shuai Jiao is different than in Kodokan Judo.... but Chan Tai San's mongolian Shuai Jiao (in his Lama) had different "go to" throws than the Chan lineage

Shuai Jiao doesn't have "ne waza" like Judo, it works to a different end, neither better nor worse.... read that again - neither better nor worse.

Shuai Jiao has one assumption, Judo has another

An intelligent fighter should study both assumptions, and get what they can from it....

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo (oh wow, watch this turn into a flame war)... but it is different because Carlos and Helio had different assumptions than Count Koma.

I've learned Mongolian Shuai Jiao from Chan Tai San, Chang lineage Shuai Jiao from Jeng Hsin Ping, Judo from Mark Tripp and John Saylor, some sambo, some greco from Randy Couture (but tailered especially for MMA), my curriculum at NY San Da is not identical to any of these .... it is an amalgamation. But someone who studied with the same people might have a different amalgamation!!!

This is going towad another thread entirely, which is CHOICES....

I've created a curriculum, a system if you will, from various influences. I had to make choices... what to teach, how to teach, when to teach... it isn't always, in fact it is SELDOM about "right vs wrong"... it is about larger things than that

[ingchao]

And then Knifefighter says........................

[SifuAbel]

squeak squeak squeak

[Royal Dragon]

lkfmdc,
So basically you have developed your own style based on the compilation of your influances?

[lkfmdc]

lkfmdc,
So basically you have developed your own style based on the compilation of your influances?

If you think your teacher teaches exactly the same stuff, exactly the same way, his teacher did you are kidding yourself. If your teacher ever studied anything else (chances are he did) then that will have an influence on what he teaches you. That's reality...

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not saying theaches the same way, but if someone were to be teaching me Sun style Bagua, I'd expect to be getting the Sun style Bagua system, not a mix of Sun style Bagua and Northern Mantis, plus abit of Hung Gar taught all as the same thing.

If he offered courses in Bauga, then mantis or Hung Gar seperately, that's different, and if he got some good teaching ideas from his Hung Gar teacher, and applied them to the way he teaches his Bagua, that is fine too, so long as he's not claiming to teach me Sun Style Bagua specifically, but really teaching a hybred style of his own.

*HOW* you teach, is different that *What* you teach. When I teach (when I actually do teach), I rarely teach the same way twice. In fact, I don't allways teach the same way inside of the same class. My teaching style changes depending on my mood, or the goals of my students, and even thier own personalities.

*What* I teach is generally the same things, in the same general order though.

[FlyingCrane]

Thanks for your last response lkfmdc. Again, you made many interesting and good points.

I am trying to wrap my head around accepting the fact that, perhaps, even after all of these years of my being so sure, perhaps even the more esoteric Chinese styles are not the "Be all and end all" of all fighting arts after all. It's a very tough pill for me to try and swallow though.

Being that you were such a close disciple of the late Chan Tai San, I would imagine that you were exposed to, and taught some of the deeper, more internal aspects of Lama Pai. Weren't there aspects of this deeper, internal energy training that gave instruction in the use of internal energy in fighting that went beyond what most other more external oriented styles teach? Or, again, looking back on it from where you stand now, do you feel that perhaps these kinds of internal teachings are over-rated when it comes to actual fighting in reality?

[lkfmdc]

"internal" isn't about bloxing up chickes with Chi blasts are 30 yards.....

I suggest you read the intro to Sun Lu Tang's book, a great history of the term "internal", what it is, what it isn't, why the term came about, etc

Internal is about understanding body mechanics and making the most of that knowledge. You can see similar "internal" in many things if the person has skill and is high level

[FlyingCrane]

"internal" isn't about bloxing up chickes with Chi blasts are 30 yards.....

I suggest you read the intro to Sun Lu Tang's book, a great history of the term "internal", what it is, what it isn't, why the term came about, etc

Internal is about understanding body mechanics and making the most of that knowledge. You can see similar "internal" in many things if the person has skill and is high level

I realize that "internal" isn't about shooting chi blasts for 30 yards. But that does not negate the fact that some high level internal martial artists have developed an internal energy that is, for lack of a better word, "psychic" in nature, and goes way beyond body mechanics. I understand the "body mechanics" side of internal, but there are sides to internal training that do go well beyond this. I have been hit by it, and it's like getting an electric shock that knocks you on your ass.

I have a friend in Tiger Claw, someone I've known for years who has no reason to deceive me. I have seen him just lightly place, and leave his hand on a ceramic roof tile. And without raising his hand back up again, the tile cracked. Of course, those reading this who did not see this have every right to say "Yeah, sure, whatever!", and that's fine. I can't really blame anyone for saying this if they didn't see it, or didn't know and trust the person that they saw do it. But I KNOW he did it, because I saw it, and I do know and trust him. And this points to something well beyond just body mechanics, although I do realize that they are a large part of certain types of internal training as well. The kind of ability that my friend displayed has more to do with mind intent, and developing a strong current of internal energy through meditation.

I know that there are many stories and claims about this type of internal energy training that are highly exaggerated, if not completely fabricated. But again, in my experience, that doesn't negate the fact that there is a reality side to this kind of energy training as well. Are you saying that you don't feel that there is any reality to this type of energy training?

[Royal Dragon]

Internal is a rather specific TYPE of body mechancis really. There is a small number of systems that use these. It's like and expansion, contraction motion of the core body similar to an accordian.

It can be soft, or hard, relaxed, or tension. It can be done with coiling and twisting Like Bagua, or more direct like Hsing I.

In the clip below, watch how the master's spin moves, and and watch how his hips move in conjunciton with his spine, and limbs. Notice how the back never arches, and the tailbone is tucked through the entire motion. One thing moves, everything moves the expanding, contracting motion defines. That is what is meant by internal body mechanics. It is a desively different method of movement and power generation comapred to the external styles.

You see this in other styles besides the big three as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxByDCdC64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTy00zNttWk

[FlyingCrane]

Thanks for the clips Royal Dragon. They certainly show a good example of the "body state" type of internal training that you and lkfmdc are describing. I am aware of this type of training, and certainly see it's merit, and martial strength.

However, no one seems to be addressing the type of internal training that has more to do with mind intent, and pure energy flow, as I mentioned in my last response to lkfmdc.

Again, as I stated before, although many have exaggerated and even falsified claims of this kind of internal power, that does not negate the reality of it's existance.

Are there others here who have either experienced, or trained in this more mind orientated, meditative type of internal energy training?

[lkfmdc]

However, no one seems to be addressing the type of internal training that has more to do with mind intent, and pure energy flow, as I mentioned in my last response to lkfmdc.



Mind intent (Yi) exists in all skilled execution of technique. There is nothing "internal" about it. Boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, jiu jitsu, etc all have "Yi"... but we've hit a road block because, honestly, I don't know how to explain "Yi" to you over the internet. I can show it to you, but I can't describe it.

Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of "internal" in anything that is not staged or pre arranged....

[Becca]

Becuase what he's looking for isn't Yi? I've seen it many times, every time I work with an advance student or black belt in fact. But it doesn't look like what Hollywood makes it out to be.

Yi is the difference between a pretty spin kick that is useless, and an amazing one that hits were you want it, as hard as you want it to, every time.

[Golden Arms]

I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.

[SevenStar]

examples? many of the energies I have learned about in cma also exist in muay thai, boxing and bjj.

[Golden Arms]

I am not talking about energies. I dont know if I should even bother to get into this stuff on this forum, but if nobody else can come up with legit examples I will.

[YouKnowWho]

I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.
There are many moves that CMA has taken it's training to the extreme. Such as:

- Head locking
- Elbow cracking
- Tearing
- Combing hair
- Scooping
- Robbing
- Sticky
- Twisting
- ...

It's the training methods (not the sole form) that make CMA unique from other foreign arts.

A simple example is to put a heavy steel ball in a hole and trying to use your foot to "scoop" it out of that hole. If you have spent enough years with that steel ball, you can almost scoop anybody's foot off the ground. A CMA master had spent years on that training. During the Chinese culture revolution he was sent to farm land for hard labor. Some workers there tried to be bossy on him, without saying a word, he swept his leg toward a fence pole and broke that fence pole in half. Those workers left him along since then.

Just like the Muay Thai guys kick on banana trees. Every arts have their special training methods and that make different arts unique.

[lkfmdc]

I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere.


Great, NAME SOMETHING....

I've got a 2nd Dan in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from a direct student of Hwang Kee. I have the same rank in Hapkido. I have a black belt in Shotokan. I boxed starting around 6. I've done Judo, Sambo, Greco Roman and Filipino martial arts all to some extent. You probably already know my CMA background

What exists in CMA that I can not find some place else?

[lkfmdc]

I dont know if I should even bother to get into this stuff on this forum




Wow, there was a quick retreat....

[Black Jack II]

I dont agree with LKFMDC that there is nothing in CMA that cannot be found elsewhere. From what I have seen, there are some martial arts around the world that have taken certain things to levels the others really rarely touch on. Chinese is just one of these.

I don't think its intent is to be elitist but this statement is just not true without any emprical proof. There are vast systems of martial combat and physical culture out there and to think that one holds sway over a certain principle without exhausting all the research is not wise.


I realize that "internal" isn't about shooting chi blasts for 30 yards. But that does not negate the fact that some high level internal martial artists have developed an internal energy that is, for lack of a better word, "psychic" in nature, and goes way beyond body mechanics

Not to be to gruff, but this is nonsense. Randi has been waiting for people to prove this for years, its all bogus.

[lkfmdc]

- Head locking


You need to find some catch wrestling



- Elbow cracking
- Tearing
- Combing hair
- Scooping


You need to find some Sambo






It's the training methods (not the sole form) that make CMA unique from other foreign arts.



You need to get out more.... and we should also mention how cultural and historical stuff skews views here... after years of Japanese oppression, no Chinese wants to see anything of value, much less Japanese influence....

[Golden Arms]

My post wasnt meant to come off elitist, or as quick retreat. I dont see the emphasis on finger training for example in many other arts up to the level of some CMA practitioners I have known personally. Another example is the stress on herbal use combined with training techniques to preserve the health of the area being trained, or affect things having to do with that area.

I am aware that other systems do similar things, but that is not what I implied. What I implied is that they do not all specialize up to the same levels in some areas. There are tons of examples, just like BJJ focuses differently on some aspects of fighting much more in depth than you are likely to find other styles around the world focusing on some of those specific aspects, Sambo as well. Boxing might be argued to take some of its skills to a pinnacle height that other arts dont often approach. This seems like common sense to me, do you still disagree though?

[Black Jack II]

There are tons of examples, just like BJJ focuses differently on some aspects of fighting much more in depth than you are likely to find other styles around the world focusing on some of those specific aspects, Sambo as well. Boxing might be argued to take some of its skills to a pinnacle height that other arts dont often approach. This seems like common sense to me, do you still disagree though?

I agree with this very much. Some arts tend to focus on certain ranges and tools which may make them outshine others in that category. It just seemed that before you were proclaiming the old line about cma having special secrets because it is so advanced....;)

My point is that the human body only moves in so many ways, and its a big world with a lot of combative thought out there, so its smart to expect some crossover.

[Golden Arms]

There is crossover, but you cant master it all before you die. Most people dont have the body conditioning of a bando or thai camp guy, most people dont have the fingers of a good Hung/SPM/Bagua person that actually does the training for 10+ years regularly, most people dont have the knife skills of a Kali/FMA person, etc. So, yes, CMA do have some things others dont really have at that level, as do most arts in their respects. I know some TKD guys can use their feet like hands, its all in how you specialize and what you learn.

[FlyingCrane]

Related, you may however want to ask yourself why you never see a clear manifestation of your conception of "internal" in anything that is not staged or pre arranged....

lkfmdc: Again, you make a very good point here. This is actually what I've been trying to get around to in this discussion. And that is, even if it is a fact that this more "psychic" (for lack of a better word) type of internal power exists, is there any real practical value to it when it comes to live combat in the real world? From your comments here, I gather that your answer would be no.

I would imagine that with your background in studying high level CMA for many years in Chinatown, that you have seen more than your share of "strange and bizarre" displays and demonstrations of Chi power, etc. Yet in the final analysis, are you saying that there really isn't any practical fighting value in developing any of these skills?

Black Jack II: I appreciate your honest opinions on this also. You mentioned that Randi has been waiting for people to prove this (by "this", I assume that you mean this type of "psychic" internal power) for years.

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Randi? I am not familiar with who this is.

Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book "The Magus of Java" by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.

Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?

[Becca]

Related to all of this, I assume that most people here are familiar with the book "The Magus of Java" by Kosta Danaos. This is supposedly the story of a Sifu named John Chang who lives in Java, and is a high level Taoist with amazing Chi Gung abilities.

Is it thought, or has it been proven that the claims in this book are suspect, or fraudulent also?

I have learned to take much in books like that with a grain, or 20, of salt. Chi Gung is not magical, mystical, or anything else. The only "internal" element of it is in developing the strong mind. The chi manipulation is the same; this is only one way, the chinese way, of empowering the spirit, or life energy. the rest is is preparring the bones, muscle and other tissue to handle great stress. You use all 3 effectively, you get Chi Gung.

What most people think of Chi Gung is a misunderstanding of what they see, because they don't understand it. It is, of lack of a better way of saying it, using mind over mater to unlock your body's truest abilities. Chi Gung is what it is called in Chinese martial arts. It "looks" a certain way because of the fraimwork used to teach it. Just as you write with a certain flair because that is how you were taught it.

[FlyingCrane]

Interesting points Becca.

Just as an FYI...Kosta Daneos doesn't make Chi Gung out to be mystical or magical in his book. But he does report seeing as well as experiencing extrodinary things while studying Chi Gung with John Chang in Java. Things that would be considered, at least by western standards, to be quite beyond the ordinary.

For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the "test" that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu's Chi Gung curriculum.

The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one's mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.

Of course, this whole story may or may not be true. But if it is true, it certainly points to the possibility of developing a very different kind of internal energy. However, even if one did develop this, it may be extremely difficult to apply it in any usefull way in a real world combat situation. I believe that lkfmdc was trying to make this point in one of his responses on this thread.

[lkfmdc]

For example, in one situation, he (the student and author) learns to actually move small objects, such as a pack of cigarettes, across a table without actually ever touching them. In fact, this is the "test" that he has to pass to show his Sifu that he is ready to move from level 2 to level 3 in his Sifu's Chi Gung curriculum.

The way that he supposedly moved the pack of cigarettes differs from pure telekinesis, since with that, one is supposedly moving an object just with one's mind, by thought alone. In the case of Kosta Daneos, he reports that he moved the pack of cigarettes by placing his open palm near them, and then, by focusing on and amplifying his Chi flow through his palm, he sent the pack of cigarettes sliding several inches across the table.

Of course, this whole story may or may not be true.



It is truly depressing to see someone believe that sort of stuff :eek:

real simple, if he can really move a pack of cigarettes with "chi" or whatever, he could be a MILLION DOLLARS richer... the old James Rhandi test....

Do you know why no "chi kung master" has ever claimed that million dollars? Because their tricks are just that, tricks, like every pro magician uses

[Black Jack II]

Here is his website, he has been at this for ever, and no one has proven they can do anything which they state. Including qi qong masters and fraud psychic criminals like Brown.

The simple reason being that its all bullsh!t.

http://www.randi.org/

[PangQuan]

does the have to yell "HADOKEN" to make the qi flow from his hands?

[FlyingCrane]

Do you know why no "chi kung master" has ever claimed that million dollars? Because their tricks are just that, tricks, like every pro magician uses

lkfmdc, I know that my aquaintence with you was brief, but during the short time that I knew you, you relayed several stories to me in which you yourself had apparently experienced some very unusual phenomenon of this nature down in Chinatown. At the time that you were telling me these stories, which was back in the early nineties, you seemed to very much believe that you had experienced this stuff for real first hand.

What happened that changed your opinion into now believing that such things are all bull$hit?

[lkfmdc]

According to established western conception of anatomy and diagnosis, there is no reason why accupuncture should do what it does, but it does. But it's a HUGE JUMP from the chi and meridians in accupuncture practice to pushing a cigarette box across a table with Chi

Similarly, I've felt hot and cold energy in people's hands, whether a result of "chi", of manipulation of circulation or even hypnotic suggestion, I've felt it. Yet never seen that transfer to any applicable combat skill

[Royal Dragon]

If it exists at all, it is a side effect of the training, not the reason.

[FlyingCrane]

lkfmdc, the stories about chi, etc., and your personal experiences with it that you shared with me back in the 90's we're far more in-depth, and esoteric than what you're describing here now.

I realize that this may not be the place to discuss these things. And I don't wish to open up things that you may not be comfortable discussing, esp. in an open forum like this.

Please understand that my motives for asking you about these things are based on very in-depth soul searching on my part with regards to trying to understand the possible reality behind esoteric practices in the martial arts and elsewhere.

You can private message me if you want me to just drop this, and I will respect your request, and just drop it. If you are OK with me getting into exactly what I remember you and I discussing back in the 90's with regards to the more esoteric side of Kung Fu training, then let me know, and I will explain what I remember you and I discussing, and hopefully you will have some helpful commentary on how you view these things now.

Thanks.