Video: Fajin Exercises of the Pre-Heaven Power Method

[swimgrad]

The following video demonstrates the Fajin training exercises adopted in the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association of Skokie, Illinois:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

[Liokault]

Bull**** for the weak of mind

[hunt1]

You must be kidding. Look at the stance of the fajing dummies. Takes no special skills of any kind to send anyone in those stances into the wall.

[Water-quan]

Hmmm.. compliance, again.

[cjurakpt]

also, it helps to know a little bit about neuromuscular physiology: notice how he gives a quick tug before he pushes? that is essentially giving a quick stretch to the biceps muscles, which will generate a reflexive recoil (pulling back against the force); when that happens, he goes with it, adding his strength to the person's pull back, which sends them flying...

[Water-quan]

also, it helps to know a little bit about neuromuscular physiology: notice how he gives a quick tug before he pushes? that is essentially giving a quick stretch to the biceps muscles, which will generate a reflexive recoil (pulling back against the force); when that happens, he goes with it, adding his strength to the person's pull back, which sends them flying...


Well, I wonder...

[ramszman]

This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin. The power is generated from the feet so there is very little movement in the body unless taking a step. The students that are flying backwards are not acting but are responding to the fajin. The first action in many of these exercises is to uproot your partner quickly and then to create the structure for them to rebound off of. So you will see the students go onto their heels because they are being uprooted. The students stand rather stiffly so that you can see the power generated and they do not get hurt. If they were to relax they would still be uprooted but instead of their arms taking the fajin their chest would. That would not be a practical exercise if you were to break your partner's ribs on an exercise. I can tell you that I have studied internal martial arts for over 2 decades and with some very reputable masters and I have never seen/felt what Master Lin has demonstrated. While some of my former instructors could use fajin from certain postures or after preparing themselves, Master Lin can use fajin from any posture at any time. Not only that but he has a very systematic way of teaching how to use fajin in this manner. Videos can be deceiving. Especially in trying to determine how much power is generated and from where. In this case one needs to feel it to really believe it. Even after feeling it, it boggles the mind that it can be done with such ease.

[Water-quan]

Well, if it's real then it's real - and if it really is one of those things that you have to feel to understand,t hen fair enough. Personally, if I hear excuses being made then i doubt.

Vidoes of top ranked Yiquan people genuinely fajinging people look different - there's clearly much more of a push involved, and it clearly also relies on direction and off balancing. Can someone touch your arm and knock you back? Well, even my kid can push me if he catches me off balance and pushes just right during push hands.... and he has a problem with keeping his guard too stiff, so I can push his whole body by pushing his arms.... but, I doubt the video - really, as honest explorers of what is the real truth then we have to be critical, and good for the guy for putting it out there, but people will, rightly, be critical until he demonstrates on more unwilling partners... It's a matter of the "next step" where CMA stylists demonstrate against good level opponents from other arts - boxing, JJ, Muay Thai etc... like san shou will fight Muay Thai and so on... Then we can really see, and there won't be any need for any excuse - and no room for any doubt.

I spar with all kinds of people, and it is perfectly possible to use techniques of pushing and touching hands/push hands fighting even good fighters. Actually, pushing is so frowned upon that a lot of systems are taken aback when you do it - but the good stylists whot hink about their art soon adapt, and when they start resisting, it's a whole different story.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It works, or it doesn't.. and until it is tested in fair combat, you simply don't know.. stories aren't your own experiences, and knowledge is born of experience..

The clip leaves room for doubt, based on my own direct experiences.. neutralizing the "Fa Jing", as demonstrated, would be no real challenge.. now, if the purpose of the clip is to demonstrate the skills of the person pushing, it would have more validity if the opponents offered some dynamic interplay.. the pusher telegraphs his intentions such that a neutralizing response should be not so difficult.. if the opponent presents a consistent and substantial level of Peng, you don't even need Fa Jing.. the pusher's movements are abrupt and threatening, which alerts the opponent of the nature of the situation.. good technique is smooth, natural, and almost unobservable.. the clip has the appearance of mostly external attributes.. but, as i said, until i have my own direct experience with the pusher, it is only my "opinion", which is subject to change based on new or better evidence..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

LOL, after viewing again, it occurs to me the the Uke's feet are parallel.. no support available.. further diminishing the credibility of the "Fa Jing"..

Be well..

[Water-quan]

This is one of the top rated push hands experts in China and the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

[hunt1]

I am not trying to denegrate your sifus skill he may have great skill but this demo does not show what many think of as fajing. There are different types.

He is showing body connection and usage of the body, For a fajing demo you do not unbalance your dummy before issuing power.

For a proper demo the body structures of those in the vid should be reversed. The sifu should be in a shoulder width upright stance the dummy should have good body structure and be allowed to use a forward bracing stance. The dummy should also be using a thick blocking shield,I prefer Thai training bags but a chicago phone book would suffice. The sifu's arm should be perfectly straight with the palm flat on the target. No step should be taken at all,none,did I mention no stepping? Power should issue without the palm ever moving off the target . To recap equal distance upright horse ,arm straight,palm flat, palm stays flat,no stepping dummy in a bracing stance at the least then bang target should look like the targets in the vid. real fajin the target doenst fly back but would be dropped . For demo flying back is ok,dont want anyone to get hurt.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a "sensitive" player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..

Be well...

[Water-quan]

Greetings..

Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a "sensitive" player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..

Be well...

That's really good open, honest approach - exactly what we need - the courage to say, yes I like this, I don't like that.

[chrisfreel]

Well, I'm also a student at this school, so maybe I can add a few comments...

Uprooting is simply part of the motion for some of the variations. The whole movement is a single circle, so it's actually more to practice this. But there's also some variations which don't include this; it's not a dependency. There are many styles which make use of this practice. See Chen-style Tai Chi, which often applies force in one direction for sending you in another.

hunt1 wrote:
"For a proper demo the body structures of those in the vid should be reversed. The sifu should be in a shoulder width upright stance the dummy should have good body structure and be allowed to use a forward bracing stance. The dummy should also be using a thick blocking shield,I prefer Thai training bags but a chicago phone book would suffice. The sifu's arm should be perfectly straight with the palm flat on the target. No step should be taken at all,none,did I mention no stepping? Power should issue without the palm ever moving off the target . To recap equal distance upright horse ,arm straight,palm flat, palm stays flat,no stepping dummy in a bracing stance at the least then bang target should look like the targets in the vid. real fajin the target doenst fly back but would be dropped . For demo flying back is ok,dont want anyone to get hurt."

I'd be interested in seeing an example of how this would look. I'm not sure why the teacher woudl exhibit what I consider might be bad structure when performing fajin, but maybe I'm not getting what you're suggesting. And this was a coorperative partner exercise, so resistence is the opposite of what we're going here. It's more like the person being thrown is live weight to practice against. If they resist, how do you measure how much progress you've made... it's dependent on how much they resist, and how good they are.

Thanks for the comments...
Chris

[Baqualin]

Greetings..

Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a "sensitive" player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..

Be well...

I agree.....more like wrestling (especially the clips of actual competition in the ring) than true push hands. Elbows were up to high alot, which opened up vital areas for attack.

Regarding Master Lin I think it would be best to feel before coming to a conclusion

Maybe a discussion on what true Fajin is and how to apply would be appropriate.
Peace

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Baqualin: i agree, as i have stated previously, my opinion is subject to change base on new or revised evidence.. i would be honored to cross hands with Sifu Lin..

As for Fa Jing, much of my Chen training utilized a very external expression of the "internal" principle of Fa Jing.. it has only been in the last 5-6 years that i have found teachers that truly understand AND can teach "Fa Jing".. and i say this only because i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. their skills at listening, sticking and adhering put them present as their opponents attempt to issue what they believe is Fa Jing.. the result is both hilarious and profound.. the opponent's "Fa Jing" is manifested in reverse, they blast themselves backward or sideways or even up.. When they decide to issue their own "Fa Jing", it is very subtle.. it perfectly finds the "insubstantial" element of the opponent's attack, and at the moment the opponent feels strongest, their weakness is exploited..

Last week at push practice i had manipulated a pretty good advantage, i had my teacher's arm pinned across his chest, i was substantial on his upper arm, near the shoulder and perpendicular to the line between his heels.. as i attempted to issue some Jing to unbalance him it felf like he sneezed a tiny sneeze.. next thing i know, he's holding me up by my wrist with that impish smile .. now, i'm no slouch at pushing, several gold medals from international competitions, quite a bit of full-contact back in the '60s-'70s.. and more recently, a bit of MT, NHB, grappling, and such.. and none of this stuff even affects my teachers.. it's so humbling.. but, the exhibitions of amazing "fa Jing" like in the clip, is just the tiny tip of an enormous iceberg.. and, to add insult to injury, my teachers say, when you get grasp on this.. maybe you start on the good stuff..:(

I'm certainly not suggesting that i have the "goods", but i am fortunate to have a couple of sources.. and i deeply respect their patience with an old dog like me..

Be well...

[Water-quan]

Greetings..

i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. ...

Why is that, Bob?

[Knifefighter]

This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin.

Complete and utter B.S.

If you really believe the cr@p he is selling you, let me send you some literature on some swamp land I have for sale.

One would have to be completely clueless not to see the "opponents" jumping up and back... this cr@p is completely fake and is exactly what gives MA's a bad rep.

This demonstration is complete and utter phoniness. Can you say "Mc Dojo cult"?

If his students believe this junk, they are as brainwashed as the students of the "aikido chi blast master" who got destroyed by the Karate/BJJ guy several weeks ago:

Same bu11sh1t, different country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&NR

And what happens when phonies like this get called out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk




.

[John Many Jars]

I think I would have laughed at the first vid more if I hadn't seen the second.

That was really sad. The "aikido chi blast master" looked kind of old...

[imperialtaichi]

...brainwashed as the students of the "aikido chi blast master" who got destroyed by the Karate/BJJ guy several weeks ago:

Same bu11sh1t, different country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&NR

And what happens when phonies like this get called out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk




I am not going to put my opinion on someone I have not cross hands with, but Knifefighter had illustrated a good point here.

Very often, students "worship" their teacher so much that they respond according to what they belief is supposed to happen. Even the teacher himself/herself may get delusions on the level of skills because he/she may actually be brainwashed by the students into thinking what he/she is more powerful than what is real.

In the two examples Knifefighter had given, the teacher can do his magic on the students because the students think it is real; and the teacher thinks he can really do his stuff because it worked on his students. If he did not think it was real, he would not have stepped into the match with the Karate dude trying to defeat him with his techniques.

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

[Water-quan]

I am not going to put my opinion on someone I have not cross hands with, but Knifefighter had illustrated a good point here.

Very often, students "worship" their teacher so much that they respond according to what they belief is supposed to happen. Even the teacher himself/herself may get delusions on the level of skills because he/she may actually be brainwashed by the students into thinking what he/she is more powerful than what is real.

In the two examples Knifefighter had given, the teacher can do his magic on the students because the students think it is real; and the teacher thinks he can really do his stuff because it worked on his students. If he did not think it was real, he would not have stepped into the match with the Karate dude trying to defeat him with his techniques.

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

Thank you for saying this.

[Justaguy]

I'm looking at what he's doing with his hands before he throws his students, and in a lot of the throws Master Lin seems to be repositioning his hands so that thier hands are grabbing him in a way that is structurally unsound. This is something that would be easy to explain in person, but not so much in typing, but... when I studied Aikido I learned a similar technique where you cut under someone grabbing you's hands and up in a circular motion like he's doing. When you get under them they're uprooted in way that when they push against you, they're essentially knocking themselves down. The teacher would do similarly impressive throws. I tried it at a party against a friend who was a weight lifter and everyone was suitably impressed - which is silly because since you're using the other guy's strength against him the bigger they are the easier it is.

Which is only to say that it is a technique that I've seen work in the past. Although to his credit, he's doing it a lot better than I've seen anyone else ever do.

Of course, without experiencing it for yourself, you really can't say what's going on at all.

[brucereiter]

It is therefore, important to cross-check with reality by crossing hands with different people and different schools, and not be fallen into the trap of self delusion.

Cheers,
John

hi john,

words of wisdom:-)

best,

bruce

[Knifefighter]

I'm looking at what he's doing with his hands before he throws his students, and in a lot of the throws Master Lin seems to be repositioning his hands so that thier hands are grabbing him in a way that is structurally unsound.

It has nothing to do with what the fake instructor is doing and everything to do with the students helping him out.


Although to his credit, he's doing it a lot better than I've seen anyone else ever do.

Watch the second clip posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

And the clip I posted on the competition thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RLWYQbNuI

Those are much more realistic and skilled demonstrations of setups, offbalancing, throwing and pushing.





.

[unkokusai]

This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin. The power is generated from the feet so there is very little movement in the body unless taking a step. The students that are flying backwards are not acting but are responding to the fajin. The first action in many of these exercises is to uproot your partner quickly and then to create the structure for them to rebound off of. So you will see the students go onto their heels because they are being uprooted. The students stand rather stiffly so that you can see the power generated and they do not get hurt. If they were to relax they would still be uprooted but instead of their arms taking the fajin their chest would. That would not be a practical exercise if you were to break your partner's ribs on an exercise. I can tell you that I have studied internal martial arts for over 2 decades and with some very reputable masters and I have never seen/felt what Master Lin has demonstrated. While some of my former instructors could use fajin from certain postures or after preparing themselves, Master Lin can use fajin from any posture at any time. Not only that but he has a very systematic way of teaching how to use fajin in this manner. Videos can be deceiving. Especially in trying to determine how much power is generated and from where. In this case one needs to feel it to really believe it. Even after feeling it, it boggles the mind that it can be done with such ease.


*Yoda voice*


You, **** full of are. Yes, yes, full of!

[chrisfreel]

Watch the second clip posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

And the clip I posted on the competition thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RLWYQbNuI

Those are much more realistic and skilled demonstrations of setups, offbalancing, throwing and pushing.
.


I watched both clips. In the first, it looked like people with no resistance were letting the instructor show them some point. The instructor was talking throughout, not fighting with them. Not sure what you're trying to point out... there was nothing wrong with it, but I'm not sure there was internal power being used, just some offbalancing and pushing. Of course any skilled instructor can do this. I didn't see the whiplash-like effect I expected from what I'm used to from the first movement, but whatever.

In the second, it looked like many other push hands competitions I've seen.

I think what you're missing is that the video only purports to show what comes before these steps. How do you develop internal power to begin with? Forget using something in a fight... if you don't have it to begin with, what's the point? You just end up compensating by other skills.

These clips are fine... they just don't show the same thing.

[Knifefighter]

I watched both clips. In the first, it looked like people with no resistance were letting the instructor show them some point.

The difference is, they were not jumping back and assisting the instructor to give the illusion that they were flying through the air from his fajing. Additionally, this was a more realistic demonstration of how you set people up to throw or push them.


but I'm not sure there was internal power being used, just some offbalancing and pushing. Of course any skilled instructor can do this.

Offbalancing and setting up is exactly what happens when you throw someone, take them down or push then. "Internal power" is the B.S. that instructors use to brainwash their student into thinking there is another, "better" way to do this.


I didn't see the whiplash-like effect I expected from what I'm used to from the first movement, but whatever.

The whiplash effect comes only from a good set-up... or from students who are helping the instructor.


Of course any skilled instructor can do this.

And skilled is the key word. Skill is setting up the opponent. Non-skilled hors3sh!1 is telling your students all they have to is develop internal power to do this.


You just end up compensating by other skills.

Those "other skills" are the only ones there are. Believing otherwise is why so many TMA practitioners end up with cr@p in terms of applicable skills

[imperialtaichi]

"Internal power" is the B.S. that instructors use to brainwash their student into thinking there is another, "better" way to do this.



Ah, thats interesting. How do you define "Internal"?

When a Tennis coach tells his student to "imagine your arm extended all the way to the edge of the court": is that external or internal? When a boxing coach tells the boxer to "imagine the glove exploding inside the target" what do you call it?

My point is, there are many "better" ways to do things; that's the difference between a good teacher/coach and an ordinary one who only knows how to follow the rest of the crowd. The line between external and internal is often blurry. Sometimes the ways may look weird, but until one has experience with it, it may not be as B.S. as it looks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LpTbVNcxY

Would you call this internal or external?

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

Ah, thats interesting. How do you define "Internal"?

There is no differentiation between "internal" and "external". Your mind works with your body. The opponent offering feedback and intent are also integral to this process.


When a Tennis coach tells his student to "imagine your arm extended all the way to the edge of the court": is that external or internal? When a boxing coach tells the boxer to "imagine the glove exploding inside the target" what do you call it?

Those are ways to help a student learn basic movements. However, the high skill is developed in the doing of the actual activity against a real opponent who is also working to beat you. This is where the real skills of strategy, tactics, set-ups and finishes occur

[chrisfreel]

The difference is, they were not jumping back and assisting the instructor to give the illusion that they were flying through the air from his fajing. Additionally, this was a more realistic demonstration of how you set people up to throw or push them.

Setting people up is not difficult, especially if they are just standing there letting you demonstrate anything you want. Sound familiar? I think it's the same criticism you had of the original video. The difference is, no one claimed there was resistance being overcome in the first one. It was a basic skills exercise.


Offbalancing and setting up is exactly what happens when you throw someone, take them down or push then. "Internal power" is the B.S. that instructors use to brainwash their student into thinking there is another, "better" way to do this.

I'm sorry, but you're posting on an internal arts forum and you don't think there's such a thing as internal power? That's, uh, interesting.



The whiplash effect comes only from a good set-up... or from students who are helping the instructor.

:rolleyes:


And skilled is the key word. Skill is setting up the opponent. Non-skilled hors3sh!1 is telling your students all they have to is develop internal power to do this.

No one said that power generation is the whole story.


Those "other skills" are the only ones there are. Believing otherwise is why so many TMA practitioners end up with cr@p in terms of applicable skills

That's one opinion. Another is that they don't really train very hard, or their instruction sucks, etc. But you have bad examples in any art, so what? It doesn't mean there aren't methods to improve certain skills. How good was your punch the first time you hit a bag? Could better body mechanics improve it? Why is it so hard to believe that you might get further improvements from even better body mechanics?

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LpTbVNcxY

Would you call this internal or external?

I would call it the same bullcr@p on a different video from someone elso who does't actually spar his stuff against anyone who has a clue.

[Knifefighter]

Setting people up is not difficult, especially if they are just standing there letting you demonstrate anything you want. Sound familiar? I think it's the same criticism you had of the original video. The difference is, no one claimed there was resistance being overcome in the first one. It was a basic skills exercise.

Setting someone up is very difficult if they are skilled. It is the key to any high level fighting, both in terms of doing it and stopping in from a defensive standpoint.

You are right... the "opponents" are not resisting and actual resistance would definitely be more realistic in terms of showing the applications. However, this still shows a more realistic approach than not demonstrating any setups and having the students jumping back and exaggerating the pushes.


I'm sorry, but you're posting on an internal arts forum and you don't think there's such a thing as internal power? That's, uh, interesting.

I don't differentiate between internal and external. As I said in the other post, you can't separate one from the other in terms of application of technique.


Why is it so hard to believe that you might get further improvements from even better body mechanics?

You'll get no argument from me there. Body mechanics can always be improved. Having people pretend that they are being forced back is no way to do this, however.

[imperialtaichi]

I would call it the same bullcr@p on a different video from someone elso who does't actually spar his stuff against anyone who has a clue.



You see, this is where you get things wrong. You cannot call something B.S. just because you are not familiar with it.

I try to cross hands with people as much as I can. And I always tell my students to test their skills against others too, so we can fine tune if what we are doing is working.

A big part of my training came from bruises. I don't just cross hands with other Tai Chi guys, but also Wing Chun, Bagua, Karate, Bak Mei, Aikido, Shaolin, BJJ etc. just to name a few. One of my best student is a Karate black belt instructor who mixes what I teach him with his own techniques and he is a very accomplished fighter. So I would not call myself "someone else who does't actually spar his stuff against anyone who has a clue." Being medically trained and worked in Hospital emergencies, as well as involving myself in pub fights (in my foolish younger days) I have seen first hand the reality of fights and injuries so I would think I do have a clue :)

Cheers,
John

[Water-quan]

I'm sorry, but you're posting on an internal arts forum and you don't think there's such a thing as internal power? That's, uh, interesting.




Well, how are you ever going to expand knowledge without listening to people with different viewpoints? I totally reject the superstitious notion of internal power as well. No wonder CMA is in such a state.

[imperialtaichi]

Well, how are you ever going to expand knowledge without listening to people with different viewpoints? I totally reject the superstitious notion of internal power as well. No wonder CMA is in such a state.



Hello Water-quan,

You may find this weird... although I consider myself an internal guy, I am totally open to people who do not believe in internal power. I have one student who is a Western trained medical doctor who absolutely does not believe in the notion of Qi or internal power; yet he continues to train with us because he finds the training useful. Some of the things he can explain through western terms, some he cannot.

My perception of what is internal and what is external is getting blurry; as long as something works, who cares what you call it. But of course, just like everything else, test it, test it, and test it more.

We have all seen "Internal Dudes" who fail miserably when it comes to the crunch; We have also seen "External Techniques" that looks good in the gym yet would not stand a chance unless the opponent is cooperative. What works, and what doesn't, really depends. The proof is in the pudding.

Cheers,
John

[Water-quan]

That's cool John. I call what I do internal method training. For me, internal means proceeding via intuition, and external means copying the form of another.

[cjurakpt]

Whoever came up with / progpageated the dichotemous terminology of internal / external in TCMA has done the arts a great disservice, as it has lead to much pointless discussion regarding what is one and what is the other;

my understanding is that Sun Lu Tang gives a good historical account in the foreward to his xing yi book, including the rationale for this (seems like the "internal" folk wanted to feel special about what they were doing; I think that it also allows for people who can't fight their way out of a paper bag to couch their "internal" training as something "other" that is justifiable for its own sake, regardless of application to fighting; and it also allows for a greater degree of entrainment between students and instructors, as it is predicated on the notion of agreement - "ok, now don't resist me while I do this or you will get hurt")

anyway, the distinction, to me, sets one up for an "either / or" type of thinking which either remains as such or, for some who actually realize it, recombined later on at "higher" levels; I think that a much more productive way of working would be to qualify the various types of methods used to train in different styles in terms of where one places attention, how one coordinates movement, and what exactly the desired outcome is (either doing something to an opponent, or experiencing a certain type of sensation while one is moving); of course, this is already done, but to do it without the labels;

for example, one of the things that would be helpful is to appropriately describe those so-called "indescribeable" internal phennonmenon from a western perspective; many say it can't be done: I not only disagree, I find it ludicrous, given that the current knowledge-state of human anatomical / physiological / biomechanical function is light-years ahead of what the "ancient" Chinese "knew", and what they ultimately had to resort to describing using metaphorical terms (e.g. - it seems to me that "qi" is essentially a metaphorical description of all the functional interrelationships of diffferent body systems with each other and the surrounding environment that occur during the process of living; it's not very esoteric or mystical, and so a lot less possible to use it to mystify one's students or yo use a a catch-all when you run out of "western terms", but it makes sense...); if you can't describe it from a "western perspective", don't blame the equipment - go out and educate yourself a bit more about how the body works, including from a so-called "non-linear" perspective...it may not get it all yet, but it's a lot more rigorous than defaulting to terms like "qi" and "internal" when you run out of things to say (this is especially for those of you have experienced stuff that you personally can't understand - don't presume to project this profound state of befuddlement onto anyone else...)

anyway, to sum up, and to paraphrase the Python boys "let's not go to 'internal / external'; it is a silly place"

[imperialtaichi]

if you can't describe it from a "western perspective", don't blame the equipment - go out and educate yourself a bit more about how the body works, including from a so-called "non-linear" perspective...it may not get it all yet, but it's a lot more rigorous than defaulting to terms like "qi" and "internal" when you run out of things to say (this is especially for those of you have experienced stuff that you personally can't understand - don't presume to project this profound state of befuddlement onto anyone else...)



Hello Cjurakpt,

yeah, in medical terms, when there is something we do not know, we tell the patients it is "ideopathic" :). Most of them seems to be happy with the explanation.

I don't think we hold all the answers in "western perspective" yet. People's been brewing beers for hundreds of years before we fully understood how the sugar turns into alcohol.

So the next time we are stuck without a good scientific explanation, remember the "wisdom of Beer" ;)

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

You see, this is where you get things wrong. You cannot call something B.S. just because you are not familiar with it.

I don't just cross hands with other Tai Chi guys, but also Wing Chun, Bagua, Karate, Bak Mei, Aikido, Shaolin, BJJ etc. just to name a few.

I’m surprised that someone who states that he regularly works with a variety of disciplines in fully resisting environments cannot see the difference between the B.S. videos and the more realistic ones.

That last video is B.S. To do some of what is being advocated there would be to violate the laws of physics. I’ve been around the block enough times to know B.S. when I see it. If this isn't evidence enough of horsehockey, all one has to do is browse though other videos from that guy to see he is doing the same old "opponents are helping him out" junk.

Don't you find it strange that guys like this have a whole cataloge with clips of themsevles doing technques with their "opponents" not resisting and flying around, but don't have a single clip of them sparring in more realistic environments? People who actually work against resisting opponents in realistic environments usually post clips of this type of stuff along with their technical clips. People who only do the "pretend" stuff only have this to demonstrate.

I am not necessarily calling it all B.S. Just the stuff that is. As I already stated, I thought the two clips I alluded to in previous posts had merit. There were huge differences between those two clips and the others. Most people with a significant background in working with realistic applications should be able to see this.

[cjurakpt]

yeah, in medical terms, when there is something we do not know, we tell the patients it is "ideopathic" :). Most of them seems to be happy with the explanation.

as a medical professional myself, I have never used that term once, for the simple reason that I reject the premise; everything has a reason; it's just a question of figuring out what it is; if I "train" my patients correctly, they won't be happy with it either


I don't think we hold all the answers in "western perspective" yet. People's been brewing beers for hundreds of years before we fully understood how the sugar turns into alcohol.

I never said that "western perspective" hold all the answers - just enough of them that we don't need to default to vague metaphorical, highly subjective terms like "qi" and "internal" in order to explain the so called "inexplicable" phennomemna that many people claim to have experienced in their study of various disciplines

I don't get the beer analogy in terms of how it pertains to my point, except that it seems to imply thathistorically people have done things without knowing why it actually works; I don't deny it, but to me it doesn't justify not questioning constantly until you do know


So the next time we are stuck without a good scientific explanation, remember the "wisdom of Beer" ;)
I think a better thing would be to keep questioning and studying and analyzing until you get one...

if we do anything other than this, we allow for an environment in which charlatans are able to propagate their BS unchecked

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Water-quan: Why is that, Bob?
Hi Water-quan, well.. my original Taiji mentor is a very famous external Master.. he is truly gifted in his art, in fact, i would conclude that he has a reasonable grasp of internal principles.. but, he expresses these principles from an external perspective.. My mentor's Taiji was an absolutely magnificent dance, filled with stunning external applications.. his mastery of the external was simply translated into his limited experience of the internal.. since his personal understanding of combat arts was so deep, it was easy to assume that we were getting the real thing.. we were able to make good showings at national and international tournaments, i was able to push with the best competitors and bring home medals.. but, i hadn't begun to do real Taiji, yet.. i was just a clever wrestler..

There wasn't any reliable local teachers that had a knowledgable depth of real internal arts.. we all read the classics, we did our best to interpret them, and we got a few things right.. but, in stroke of good luck, two teachers emerged.. one from China, Master Wong.. another, from the states, who wishes to remain anonymous for the time being.. it took me a while to get over my ego since i had enjoyed a great local reputation.. but, once i touched hands with these guys, i had to face the evidence, they had the real deal.. So, after a healthy serving of "humble Pie", i began my new journey.. i guess the first 12 years weren't wasted, i had good mechanics and good techniques.. but, as i add to that with some real stuff its easy to look back see the folly and false arrogance i had carried so long.. it is a blessing to let go of that aspect of who i was..

You had to ask, huh?

Be Well..

[hunt1]

Chrisfreel - You misunderstand a bit. If you can perform fa jing you dont need any special stance just stand in a natural fashion.

There are 3 main types of ging or geng push hands /chi sao develops listening ging. Most though talk about issuing force which many call Fa -ging. The funny thing is is that every person on earth performs perfect fa jing all the time. Babies to old men perform it. You no doubt either live with or have a master of fa ging on your street. I speak of the most obvious master of fa-gign, the dog! Watch a dog the next time you see one get wet the way they shke off the water is perfect fa ging. It is so perfect that it is the model for one of the most popular metheds of fa-gin, dog shake water. Have you ever watched a snake strike on animal show? There you have another example of fa -ging and another popular methed . When you sneeze try to keep your eyes open,you cant because this is natural fa-ging.

All we are trying to do when learning how to perform fa-ging is mentally call up on command what we do naturally. Since it is natural all you need to use to perform it is natural body structure.

Can it be performed while fighting ? Yes and no. The real secret is how to train your body in a natural fashion. If you have the right training then some fa jing ability will be a natural result

[Water-quan]

Greetings..


Hi Water-quan, well.. my original Taiji mentor is a very famous external Master.. he is truly gifted in his art, in fact, i would conclude that he has a reasonable grasp of internal principles.. but, he expresses these principles from an external perspective.. My mentor's Taiji was an absolutely magnificent dance, filled with stunning external applications.. his mastery of the external was simply translated into his limited experience of the internal.. since his personal understanding of combat arts was so deep, it was easy to assume that we were getting the real thing.. we were able to make good showings at national and international tournaments, i was able to push with the best competitors and bring home medals.. but, i hadn't begun to do real Taiji, yet.. i was just a clever wrestler..

There wasn't any reliable local teachers that had a knowledgable depth of real internal arts.. we all read the classics, we did our best to interpret them, and we got a few things right.. but, in stroke of good luck, two teachers emerged.. one from China, Master Wong.. another, from the states, who wishes to remain anonymous for the time being.. it took me a while to get over my ego since i had enjoyed a great local reputation.. but, once i touched hands with these guys, i had to face the evidence, they had the real deal.. So, after a healthy serving of "humble Pie", i began my new journey.. i guess the first 12 years weren't wasted, i had good mechanics and good techniques.. but, as i add to that with some real stuff its easy to look back see the folly and false arrogance i had carried so long.. it is a blessing to let go of that aspect of who i was..

You had to ask, huh?

Be Well..

Thanks Bob - no, that's interesting. Cool that you found what you were searchign for - like the Bible says, seek and ye shall find...
There's a lot of wisdom in that!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There is internal and there is external.. the differences are observable AND interchangable.. mostly, however, we entertain ourselves with semantics and egos.. while the lessons go unlearned..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Cjurakpt,

Sorry, my post is meant to be a tongue in cheek, wasn't meant to be serious. I very much agree with what you are saying.

My beer analogy is this: there is a scientific reason behind the process of fermentation; but people still managed to brew beer even they did not know of the science behind it, by following an empirical formula given to them by the people before them. Same as, science today may not be able to explain everything (as a medical professional yourself you should know), but we can still develop our skills even we may not fully understand why it works. We just follow the recipe for now, until science catches up and take it to a higher level.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

I’m surprised that someone who states that he regularly works with a variety of disciplines in fully resisting environments cannot see the difference between the B.S. videos and the more realistic ones.




I crossed hand with this WC person once, he was impressed with my power, so I showed him how I developed it, but he insisted I was B.Sing him and must have some secret weight training technique not sharing. The problem is, when the person's mind is closed, not matter what you do, it is still closed.

I know how easy it is to fall into the trap of compliance; that's why I ALWAYS advocate testing yourself against others. And if my students reckon my methods work when they cross hands with others, why is it B.S.?

All this arguing had be going around for years. It is going nowhere, it is futile. Pretty boring really....

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

I know how easy it is to fall into the trap of compliance; that's why I ALWAYS advocate testing yourself against others. And if my students reckon my methods work when they cross hands with others, why is it B.S.?

I'm not saying your stuff is necessarily B.S.

What is is B.S. are those videos.

Unless that is you, of course... in which case, simply post a video of you working against someone who is somewhat skilled from another style... say a judoka or wrestler.

If that is not you and you and your students are regularly going against resisting opponents from other styles, then you are fine. However, if this is the case, I am still surprised you cannot tell the difference in clips in terms of potential for realistic application.

[Knifefighter]

Speaking of pushing and internal arts... tell a collegiate wrestler that his goal is to push someone away rather than take him down and he will be pushing the best "internal masters" around with ease in no time.

Why? Because he has already developed all the skills he needs to a much higher level simply by working wrestling techniques and wrestling full force in his years going against other wrestlers.

[Knifefighter]

I crossed hand with this WC person once, he was impressed with my power, so I showed him how I developed it, but he insisted I was B.Sing him and must have some secret weight training technique not sharing. The problem is, when the person's mind is closed, not matter what you do, it is still closed.


Once? With a WC guy?

Cross hands with a collegiate level wrestler, BB judoka or BJJer, or semi-pro/pro MMA fighter. If you are able to "impress" them, I guarantee you they will be open to whatever it is you are doing.

As competitive athletes, we are interested in application and results and are almost always open to something that is going to give us an advantage. The key is that you have to make your stuff work against us in the first place.

[imperialtaichi]

Speaking of pushing and internal arts... tell a collegiate wrestler that his goal is to push someone away rather than take him down and he will be pushing the best "internal masters" around with ease in no time.



I have plenty of respect for wrestlers and their abilities. Just like there are good wrestlers and bad wrestlers, there are good "internal masters" and bad "internal masters". It is not determined by whether external is better or internal is better, it is about who is better trained.

If there is one single method, whether it'd be internal or external, that's better than everything else in every single situation then there would be only one style of martial arts in the world.

If you want good "pushing", you might as well look up a sumo called "Asashoryu" on you tube.

Cheers,
John

[Knifefighter]

It is not determined by whether external is better or internal is better, it is about who is better trained.

Exactly... and the person who is better trained is the result of using valid techniques, strategies, tactics, and principles against resisting, skilled opponents... not having stooges flying through the air because they are assisting the instructor in his "fajing".

Sumo wrestlers are indeed masters of pushing. Internal pushing "masters" would do well to take a lesson or two from them.

As a matter of fact, a great way for an internal master to demonstrate the effectiveness of his fajing would be to use it agaisnt a pro sumo wrestler. Of course, we know that will never happen.

[imperialtaichi]

Once? With a WC guy?



I play with WC guys all the time. But I have only cross hands with this particular guy once. In fact, if all goes well, I'll be visiting a couple of WC masters in Guangzhou at the end of the year. It should be fun.




Cross hands with a collegiate level wrestler, BB judoka or BJJer, or semi-pro/pro MMA fighter. If you are able to "impress" them, I guarantee you they will be open to whatever it is you are doing.

As competitive athletes, we are interested in application and results and are almost always open to something that is going to give us an advantage. The key is that you have to make your stuff work against us in the first place.



Yes, that's why ALL my Tai Chi students have previous martial arts background. WC, Karate (including couple of black belt instructors), Judo, Xing Yi, Tai Chi etc. I usually DON'T teach raw beginners (I don't have the patience). Usually I tell my student to cross hands with me first and discuss what they want to develop. If they find there is something that I can offer, then I'll train them. If not, then there are other teachers who can help them. Totally free to choose.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Sumo wrestlers are indeed masters of pushing. Internal pushing "masters" would do well to take a lesson or two from them.



I save all the best Asashoryu clips from Youtube :). I would not mind playing with him or his trainer if I ever get a chance.

If you study his moves/methods, he does a lot of softening, emptying redirecting and spiral throws. That's why some say Asashoryu is the best sumo for the past 100 yrs.

Hmmm... we should start a sumo thread somewhere.....

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

Re cjurakpt's posts.
Different paradigms can coexist because they can explain different things.
A linear developmental path can miss some things that can be explained by
chi and prana paradigms. Its a time for great cross cultural achievements in many fields and both western and eastern paradigms have their limits IMO of course. I am not talking about chi blasts and fakery.

Re- imperialtaichi- I dont have the slightest idea re the wc guy who was surprised by your power. Good wing chun has fajing too.Different lineages have different terms for it... in mine "bau ja geng" explosive rather than pushing power is a cantonese term that is often used.

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

Re- imperialtaichi- I dont have the slightest idea re the wc guy who was surprised by your power. Good wing chun has fajing too.Different lineages have different terms for it... in mine "bau ja geng" explosive rather than pushing power is a cantonese term that is often used.



Yes, there are many different Jing in WC. I had the fortune of being hit by Master Tsui Seung Tin of HK Wingchun some years ago. By focusing his power differently, he can either make it feel like I was hit by a brick, or by a bullet. I also had the fortune of crossing hands with late HK Master Wong Seung Leung as well. He was tremendousely powerful, yet totally different to TST. Master Wong didn't hit me though. :)

Cheers,
John

[longbow911]

So many posts on the subject of fajin stimulated by Sifu Lin's short video! I know this practitioner and feeling is believing. I know from experience that he posesses the real deal and believes he has the technique refined to the point that he can bring the gift to others. Next time you're in the Chicago area please confirm for yourself by stopping by and experiencing this phenomena firsthand. He's a miracle of self-realization.

[Water-quan]

So many posts on the subject of fajin stimulated by Sifu Lin's short video! I know this practitioner and feeling is believing. I know from experience that he posesses the real deal and believes he has the technique refined to the point that he can bring the gift to others. Next time you're in the Chicago area please confirm for yourself by stopping by and experiencing this phenomena firsthand. He's a miracle of self-realization.

I will.........

[ramszman]

So many posts on the subject of fajin stimulated by Sifu Lin's short video! I know this practitioner and feeling is believing. I know from experience that he posesses the real deal and believes he has the technique refined to the point that he can bring the gift to others. Next time you're in the Chicago area please confirm for yourself by stopping by and experiencing this phenomena firsthand. He's a miracle of self-realization.

I agree. Feeling is believing.