Leg mechanics

[AndrewS]

Something I posted on EF.

As a Wing Chun/Escrima guy who powerlifts and thinks about body mechanics a good bit, here's my take-

Leg rotation when the whole foot is on the ground (ankle is constrained, yes there's some play, no where near what there is when you live on your forefoot) should primarily come from the hip; to do otherwise will put lateral forces on your knees, something they aren't built to take.

Toe in emphasizes one kinetic chain, heel out another. Both tend to be going on to varying degrees in each leg at any given time.

Toe in comes with internal rotation of the femur, from the adductors and hip flexors, and re-inforces (by irradiation) oblique and transversus abdominus activation allowing greater force of isometric contraction by the abdominals, helping with stabizing the torso and/or developing power from the waist on the dragging up portion of the half step, shuffle, whatever you want to call it- essentially part of the process of 'sitting down on a punch'.

Heel out comes with external rotation of the femur, comes from the gluts and hamstrings, and re-inforces the action of the low back (quadratus lumborum, etc.), helping with stabilization and providing 'drive' with the expanding phaze of the step in question. See Louie Simmons' articles on squatting for a very clear and nice explanation of this (somewhere in there he mentions that old lightweights used to squat pidgeon-toed for the increased stability, but that doesn't work for bigger lifters- an interesting aside).

Both these mechanics can be 'hidden' inside and don't require really precise positions to use once learned.

Wing Chun shows the stabilization/turned in thing first in its character 2 stance, then gets explicit with the other mechanic in the preparatory exercises for long pole and pole work.

FWIW,

Andrew

[Knifefighter]

Toe in emphasizes one kinetic chain, heel out another. Both tend to be going on to varying degrees in each leg at any given time.

When you say toe-in vs. heel out, do you mean:
Toe-in = toes rotated inwards towards each other?
Heel out = heels rotated away from each other?

If so, they are both the same thing... internal rotation at the hip joint.

[AndrewS]

Dale,

the positions are a reference point for the lines of force used. If the foot was totally neutral and you had to catch a 20lb medicine ball, you'd (probably) set your abs and adduct- toe in. Throw the same ball and you'll post off the ground and squeeze your gluts and hammies, activating your posterior chain, foot doesn't have to change position. When you squat that's the idea behind 'tearing the floor apart with your feet' or pushing your knees out.

It's an agonist/anatagonist pair.


Make more sense?

Andrew

[Knifefighter]

Ok, now I see what you are talking about. Thanks for the clarification.

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun shows the stabilization/turned in thing first in its character 2 stance,





IMHO, a very general issue on WCner's Leg mechanism is in handling of both the inner and outer tighs. this is due to locking the knees...etc and which lead to dis-integrate of the body as a whole and dislocate the lower half of the body.

[Todai]

this is due to locking the knees...etc .

Just to clarrify, do you mean a rigidness in the knees while in the stance (ie locking the knees inward as you see in some people stance), or locking the knees straight (as in standing up...which im having trouble seeing)?


which lead to dis-integrate of the body as a whole and dislocate the lower half of the body.

In general is a goal in the early stages for a student, in order to focus on one aspect at a time? It seems the obvious answer is to avoid the "dis-integration" especially once to Chum Kiu, but are you advocating this before that stage?

[Hendrik]

Just to clarrify, do you mean a rigidness in the knees while in the stance (ie locking the knees inward as you see in some people stance), or locking the knees straight (as in standing up...which im having trouble seeing)?-------


IMHO,


in general, there are two types of extreme in doing YJKYM

1, is rigidly clamp the heck out of the knees.
2, is locking the knees with higher and wider stance trying to get more strenght.

both cause the tigh to bais in extreme and hold in some rigid state. not to mention those who import the Iron wire stance which turn into totally rigid or turn to the other extreme where people import the taiji stance which turn into a totally mess.






In general is a goal in the early stages for a student, in order to focus on one aspect at a time? -----


IMHO, to be real honest, there is no such thing as doing different stuffs in the early stages or later statges.

the same stuffs, only after more practice one could handle the whole leg better and better when the level is higher and higher




It seems the obvious answer is to avoid the "dis-integration" especially once to Chum Kiu, but are you advocating this before that stage?-------


if one could not understand and stand in integration the first few weeks of starting wck, then other stuffs are hopeless. IMHO.








IN an ancient way of describe this.

the following 4 vessels needs to be activate or handle in YJKYM for leg training. Otherwise, the leg is simply wont flow but stuck in some state of rigidness.



YIN STEPPING VESSEL (YIN QIAO MAI)
http://dharma.com.tw/x1chinese/D32Health/H519MagNChout.htm

YANG STEPPING VESSEL (YANG QIAO MAI)
http://dharma.com.tw/x1chinese/D32Health/H518MagYChout.htm

YIN LINKING VESSEL (YIN WEI MAI)
http://dharma.com.tw/x1chinese/D32Health/H521MagNwei.htm

YANG LINKING VESSEL (YANG WEI MAI)
http://dharma.com.tw/x1chinese/D32Health/H520MagYwei.htm


or

http://krsna.lamost.org/medi/classic/jingluo/jlflashset.htm

click on

阴維脉
阳维脉
阴蹺脉
阳蹺脉

on the left down ward conner to see animation.

These are the 4 lower gorup of special medirians which needs to be activate among other medirians. or one could view the activation as an Awareness of the movement of this part of the body.
Clik on

[t_niehoff]

Andrew,

This is how I view the "internal rotation" of the foot in YJKYM:

Do this experiment. Stand normally, feet under shoulders in parallel stance, shoulder width apart, weight 50-50, knees slightly bent, be erect (not slouching) but relaxed (let arms hang naturally) and with toes pointing straight ahead. OK, now keeping the feet on the ground, shift all your weight to one leg. Lift the other leg up off the ground slightly. What happens?

Nothing.

Now go back to that same starting posture, but this time rotate the feet (and knees) inward (45 degrees or so). Now keep both feet on the ground and shift your weight as before (so you are 100-0). Lift the other (nonweighted) leg off the ground slightly. What happens?

Your body will turn 45 degree inward to align with the foot naturally and without effort. That's because the internal rotation of the foot stretched and loaded (twisted) the hip tendons and your weight prevented the release. When you shifted the weight, you naturally untwisted.

This sort of loading/unloading is at the core of WCK mechanics in my view. It uses the natural "springyness" of the tendons/joints to generate and receive pressure/power. So, for example, when we receive pressure from an opponent, we let that load our hip using that mechanic; when he releases, we spring into him automatically.

[Mr Punch]

Good discussion. Explains a lot in more scientific terms than 'this feeling/that energy'. Thanks people.

[AndrewS]

Hendrik,

my understanding is that the meridians you're pointing out are the acupunctural meridians, not the 'musculotendinous' meridians which are slightly different and less talked about, at least according to a conversation with Mike Sigman years ago.

The term for a chain of muscles acting together that I've heard used is 'serape'.

Moreover, an excess internal focus on activation of certain parts of the body may be much less useful than visualization of an external force one is trying to exert -head held up by a string buys you better neck alignment than trying to focus on CV and GV, dealing with a dude trying to snap you down and drive your head out of position with his, and then keeping that feel in solo practice is probably best yet. I saw a nice motor learning tip (no reference) which implied that an external focus (task or kinasthetic sensation, drive your upper back and head into the bench) is much more successful at imparting a skill than an internal focus (squeeze your shoulder blades together).

Terence,

I see what you're saying, and agree that elasticity in the connective tissues plays a role in motion; as does finding favorable skeletal alignment (optimal leverages). The contribution of said connective tissue's elasticity is relatively small if I remember Siff's comments in Supertraining ( I think he addressed this there), while the optimum length of a muscle to generate maximal contraction (starling's law essentially <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank-Starling_law_of_the_heart>), the plyometric effect (rapid stretching of a muscle leading to rapid reflex contraction at greater force output than is usually possible), and the actually ability of a muscle complex to put out power seem much more substanstial variables.

Basically, if you want to hit someone with a lead shot you want that back knee lined up to aim at them. This will generate the winding you're talking about (if you stay more square) and put the glut in more stretched position than if the back leg was turned out (allowing the glut and ham to exert force more advantageously). Drop a tiny bit before you fire the lead shot and it will further stretch that pre-tensed glut, giving you that extra plyometric effect for a little more juice. Train that *ss to fire faster with depth jumps and high pulls or power cleans or speed squats and you up the limit speed for firing and increase your power.

If a major determinant of firing was connective tissue, then you should be able to drop a bar into the hands of someone quite weak in hang position and have them be able to fire a weight they couldn't otherwise move up to chest height.

Just some thoughts,

Andrew

[Hendrik]

Andrew,

Thanks for sharing!


my understanding is that the meridians you're pointing out are the acupunctural meridians, not the 'musculotendinous' meridians which are slightly different and less talked about, at least according to a conversation with Mike Sigman years ago.-----

Yap they are different then the 'musculotendinous" type

IMHO, these medirians are good guidance because when these part of the body is activate. they does have thier own pattern of motion reflecting these paths. This is not a mental stuffs but one actually will know and feel and see the motion.





The term for a chain of muscles acting together that I've heard used is 'serape'. ----

I have not heard about 'serape'. but there might be something related to. IMHO we need to investigate more into these area to demystify and able to explain things better.




Moreover, an excess internal focus on activation of certain parts of the body may be much less useful
than visualization of an external force one is trying to exert -head held up by a string buys you better neck alignment than trying to focus on CV and GV, dealing with a dude trying to snap you down and drive your head out of position with his, and then keeping that feel in solo practice is probably best yet. -----


1, the general Visualization be it external or internal, Thus I have heard is too Slow. and not usefull but easy to lost totality awareness in real time operation.


2, For those who have activate the "medirian" or Track or ( whatever we like to call them). There is no need to visualize or focus as ordinary usual sense.

just make an intent and the wave like resonance motion start. it is about ask and it is already given. or in the ancient term, " set the intention, and the spirit is already there. " it is just a natural flow.


So, this is another paradigm and for sure it is not about thinking or visualization but an Awareness/energy flow level of phenomenon. it is a mind and body travel deeper phenomenon cultivate via mind and body and awareness.


Thus, I have heard.
This is similar to the Chinese Dragon always follow its pearl. so, as soon as one "intend"/pearl, the dragon/body will do what it takes to follow that pearl. There no longer the usual visualization in the general sense.




I saw a nice motor learning tip (no reference) which implied that an external focus (task or kinasthetic sensation, drive your upper back and head into the bench) is much more successful at imparting a skill than an internal focus (squeeze your shoulder blades together).------

I agree,
external visualization and foucs is very important.



IMHO, for this specific thread, the bottom line is in general, often one has no sense for one's tight or lower body part after all the clamping or rotating.....etc. that causing problem of rigid and insensitve. So, what I have heard about these medirians stuffs is in a very basic sense, the differents medirains Awareness is to explore different parts of the body. so that we aware of their nature of flow.

The rest is words and model which IMHO I dont think it is important to call it medirians or anything as soon as one be able to activate that part of the body naturally.


peace

[t_niehoff]

Andrew, thanks for the link. As far as the "contribution of said connective tissue's elasticity is relatively small" -- I don't know about that. My arches (of the foot) play a huge role in everything I do and can absorb (load) huge amounts of force. Combine and coordinate all the body's "springs" so that they work together and IME it can be very powerful. That is, in a nutshell, what I view as a significant part of the essential "body mechanic" behind the YJKYM. Others, of course, will differ in their view.

BTW, Hendrik, Sum Nung, reknowned WCK fighter and TCM physician, didn't seem to have a problem with the clamping (he advocated maximum claimping of the knees - to one fist's distance) and rotating the foot. So if you want to talk about how things "traditionally" were done, maybe you should start there. :)

[Hendrik]

BTW, Hendrik, Sum Nung, reknowned WCK fighter and TCM physician, didn't seem to have a problem with the clamping (he advocated maximum claimping of the knees - to one fist's distance) and rotating the foot. So if you want to talk about how things "traditionally" were done, maybe you should start there. :)



You need to ask yourself why Sum Nung is doing Kidney Qi return to its origin Qigong ?

and also, you need to ask your sifu Robert Chu isnt it kidney Qi is related big time with legs?

and,

Kidney Qi only flow via the legs medirians and not the hands medirians?



See, one could ask all type of question just for shake of asking. Do your home work before you ask. that makes life clearly and save more energy for others.

For the ancient Chinese mastering means, "learn how to ask with sensible" or Xia Ween.

[t_niehoff]

You need to ask yourself why Sum Nung is doing Kidney Qi return to its origin Qigong ?

and also, you need to ask your sifu Robert Chu isnt it kidney Qi is related big time with legs?

and,

Kidney Qi only flow via the legs medirians and not the hands medirians?



See, one could ask all type of question just for shake of asking. Do your home work before you ask. that makes life clearly and save more energy for others.

For the ancient Chinese mastering means, "learn how to ask with sensible" or Xia Ween.

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"?

"Kidney qi flow" is nothing more than using the elasticity of the legs/hips -- which is why a person stands on K1, the balls of the feet: it engages the arches of the foot. As I understand it, this training came from Cheung Bo's teacher to balance out (for health reasons) various postural imbalances that people get from practicing WCK. That set also involves the upper body too. FWIW, I learned it from Robert and practice it as a warm up and cool down.

There is no such thing as qi, so it doesn't flow. Too bad the ancient chinese didn't understand how the body really works.

[Hendrik]

"Kidney qi flow" is nothing more than using the elasticity of the legs/hips -- which is why a person stands on K1, the balls of the feet: it engages the arches of the foot. As I understand it, this training came from Cheung Bo's teacher to balance out (for health reasons) various postural imbalances that people get from practicing WCK. That set also involves the upper body too.

FWIW, I learned it from Robert and practice it as a warm up and cool down.

There is no such thing as qi, so it doesn't flow. Too bad the ancient chinese didn't understand how the body really works.--------




Sure you are right!

same old same old. always speculate on things you have no idea.




BTW.

how could you learn from Robert where Robert believe in Qi (check his post in this forum a few weeks ago)

and you said "
There is no such thing as qi, so it doesn't flow. Too bad the ancient chinese didn't understand how the body really works." Dont you contradict the heck out of yourself?

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik, why not answer my question?

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"?

And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true.

Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No. Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence. And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. And they get away with it because they do not compete with other athletes (as they are theoretical nonfighters) -- since that model produces such poor results. You've yet to name a single person today who has used that model to achieve good fighting skill. Your silence reveals all. So you can't provide one iota of evidence -- in the example of a single person who practices the way you preach who has developed any significant skills.

But you keep harping on how this was the "traditional way" founded in TCM. Yet, in this, you are not even correct! Sum Nung, who was as traditional as they come and a physician in TCM, and Yip Man both practiced the SLT with clamped knees and inwardly rotated feet. Hell, in Yip's SLT his weight isn't even on K1!! So where are the traditional guys who practiced the SLT the way you say it should be done and is "traditional"? The only person you can point to is "Grandmaster Fu" who isn't a WCK practitioner!

So what we have is you saying practice the SLT your way and it will produce results -- even though you can't point to a single person that it has worked for, and you support your claim by saying it was the "traditional way" yet all the traditional guys don't practice the SLT the way you say to. You are living in a fantasy world of your own.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, why not answer my question? ---------


I have answer your question and more.

But I could not do comprehension for you.
similar to I could give you food but I could not eat for you.

You could always think there is no such thing as Tofu and no one could intelectually tell you what Tofu is unless you have eat it.






The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"? --------



ARe you from the lineage of YKS?

do you have the first hand infomation such as Rene has or Rene's sifu has and the indepth traditional /classical Chinese Martial art training?

if not both the above what to discuss?

BTW, Eating to much rice will kill one. So, is it reating rice wasnt "correct'?


If I were you, mind my own business is a better deal then always argue about something one has no idea about. Atleast that save energy.







And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true. ----------



Robert is practicing using Chi to heal and cure and help his patients.

So, is it a believe or it is a practice? until you got that clear, you could know what is real or not.







Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No.
Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence. --------


Does Terence knows everying about WCK? Yes.
Does Terence is a Omni GOD? Yes.
Does Terence know everything about CHinese mind set? Yes.

Ha ha ha

How ridiculus and childist are the above statements isnt it?






And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. -------


Sure, the government switch to Communism and trying to destroy the chinese culture with Culture Revolution too.

Does that make the government right?






Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. ------




if you believe in that, tell that to your sifu Robert.

I propose you might as well as STOP claming you are Robert's student.
For the above statement disgrace Robert, Hawkin, and GM YIp Man.


If you even have respect to any of them you wont make the above statement.




I know Robert and I know his art and I know his loyalty and respect to his sifu, Sigung, and the Traditional methods of training, Not to say Robert and me think all traditional is right ; however it is certainly not making such claim as you make.



Thus, I would like to propose, if you no longer train in WCK, leave this forum,

if you still think Robert is your ex sifu. Stop posting nonsense which will lead others to mis-understand Robert and create problem for Robert among others and other lineages.


I must said this. Stop to be a trouble creator for Robert.




This will be the last post I would answer you. You walk your path, I walk mine. you are a MMA person comes to this forum trying to down play WCK for whatever reason which I dont care.

And, I am not going to spend one second more.


Peace and so long.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik, why not answer my question? ---------


I have answer your question and more.


No, you still avoid ansering the question. Why do all the traditional guys clamp the knees and rotate the feet inward?



You could always think there is no such thing as Tofu and no one could intelectually tell you what Tofu is unless you have eat it.


But anyone could show me tofu -- I don't have to eat it. You claim your methods are traditional but they are not. You claim they produce results but can't provide any evidence of anyone who uses them that has developed good fighting skills.



The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT? Why did he do this? Answer that. Why not just throw that out of the SLT if it wasn't "correct"? --------

ARe you from the lineage of YKS?

do you have the first hand infomation such as Rene has or Rene's sifu has and the indepth traditional /classical Chinese Martial art training?

if not both the above what to discuss?


Why do I need to be from YKS lineage -- isn't this WCK? You - Hendrik - says that to clamp the knees and roate the feet inward is not correct, yet this is what all the traditional guys do.



If I were you, mind my own business is a better deal then always argue about something one has no idea about. Atleast that save energy.


This is a forum for views. You give your views, I'll give mine. :) If you say something produces results, I'll ask for evidence. If you say something is traditional, I'll ask for who did it that way.



And, whether Robert believes in chi or not does not make it real/true. ----------

Robert is practicing using Chi to heal and cure and help his patients.

So, is it a believe or it is a practice? until you got that clear, you could know what is real or not.


The practice and the explanation are two different things. Even if the practice has benefits, that doesn't make the explanation for that practice valid. Accupuncture may work, but that doesn't prove that qi exists. Qi is just the "best" explanation that they had at the time. We know more today. Just as the bark of some tree may be a remedy but the explanation is that it is the blessing of the wood nympth does not prove wood nympths exist.



Does Terence knows everying about WCK? Yes.
Does Terence is a Omni GOD? Yes.
Does Terence know everything about CHinese mind set? Yes.

Ha ha ha

How ridiculus and childist are the above statements isnt it?


I don't claim to know everything --but I do recognize BS when I hear it.



And this is why the Chinese government today, in training its athletes doesn't follow the ancient pardigm, but follows the modern one -- as that is the only way to compete with today's athletes. -------


Sure, the government switch to Communism and trying to destroy the chinese culture with Culture Revolution too.

Does that make the government right?


I think this reveals your real agenda -- cultural rpeservation. The chinese government, like any government, or any athlete for that matter, will use whatever works best to develop their athletes. They won't throw away some great way of trianing, something that would give them an edge, for the sake of destroying culture. Your view just doesn't hold water.



Only in the TCMAs do people still follow that nonsense as training. ------

if you believe in that, tell that to your sifu Robert.

I propose you might as well as STOP claming you are Robert's student.
For the above statement disgrace Robert, Hawkin, and GM YIp Man.


If you even have respect to any of them you wont make the above statement.


The fact that the world is round and not flat has nothing to do with respecting anyone, just as saying certain training methods aren't very effecitve has nothing to do with respecting anyone. Robert is my sifu -- that fact remains. I have told Robert that TCMAs are 90% nonsense. He knows how I feel. The mere fact that no one who follows that training can fight worth a **** proves it.




I know Robert and I know his art and I know his loyalty and respect to his sifu, Sigung, and the Traditional methods of training, Not to say Robert and me think all traditional is right ; however it is certainly not making such claim as you make.


You should not speak for Robert. Your crazy views are your own.



Thus, I would like to propose, if you no longer train in WCK, leave this forum,


I do practice WCK; you don't. For you WCK is a belief system; for me it is a martial art. I'll be visiting Robert in June, 2008 -- come see for yourself. :)



if you still think Robert is your ex sifu. Stop posting nonsense which will lead others to mis-understand Robert and create problem for Robert among others and other lineages.


I make it very clear that I speak for myself only -- unlike you who keeps trying to bring in others to support your crazy views. And, Robert surely doesn't need my help in creating problems with other lineages! ;)



I must said this. Stop to be a trouble creator for Robert.


I am creating no problems for Robert; all my opinions are my own. Just like my WCK is my own. Robert helped me to make *my* WCK functional, and for that I will always be grateful. We only make problems for others when we speak for others. You might want to consider that.




This will be the last post I would answer you. You walk your path, I walk mine. you are a MMA person comes to this forum trying to down play WCK for whatever reason which I dont care.

And, I am not going to spend one second more.


Peace and so long.

I am first and foremost a WCK practitioner, and I practice WCK as a martial art. On this forum, I talk about WCK. If you have proof that your way of training produces significant gains in fighitng skills, then provide the evidence. You can't because it doesn't work. If you say your way of performing the SLT is traditional, then explain why no one performs it as you do. You can't. All you have are empty words, and no evidence to back any of them up. Your views have no substance behind them. Of course you don't want to discuss things with me -- because I ask for evidence (of which you have none) and don't defer to your "status" (which in my view is that of just another theoretical nonfighter).

[Hendrik]

No, you still avoid ansering the question. Why do all the traditional guys clamp the knees and rotate the feet inward?



But anyone could show me tofu -- I don't have to eat it. You claim your methods are traditional but they are not. You claim they produce results but can't provide any evidence of anyone who uses them that has developed good fighting skills.



Why do I need to be from YKS lineage -- isn't this WCK? You - Hendrik - says that to clamp the knees and roate the feet inward is not correct, yet this is what all the traditional guys do.



This is a forum for views. You give your views, I'll give mine. :) If you say something produces results, I'll ask for evidence. If you say something is traditional, I'll ask for who did it that way.



The practice and the explanation are two different things. Even if the practice has benefits, that doesn't make the explanation for that practice valid. Accupuncture may work, but that doesn't prove that qi exists. Qi is just the "best" explanation that they had at the time. We know more today. Just as the bark of some tree may be a remedy but the explanation is that it is the blessing of the wood nympth does not prove wood nympths exist.



I don't claim to know everything --but I do recognize BS when I hear it.



I think this reveals your real agenda -- cultural rpeservation. The chinese government, like any government, or any athlete for that matter, will use whatever works best to develop their athletes. They won't throw away some great way of trianing, something that would give them an edge, for the sake of destroying culture. Your view just doesn't hold water.



The fact that the world is round and not flat has nothing to do with respecting anyone, just as saying certain training methods aren't very effecitve has nothing to do with respecting anyone. Robert is my sifu -- that fact remains. I have told Robert that TCMAs are 90&#37; nonsense. He knows how I feel. The mere fact that no one who follows that training can fight worth a **** proves it.




You should not speak for Robert. Your crazy views are your own.



I do practice WCK; you don't. For you WCK is a belief system; for me it is a martial art. I'll be visiting Robert in June, 2008 -- come see for yourself. :)



I make it very clear that I speak for myself only -- unlike you who keeps trying to bring in others to support your crazy views. And, Robert surely doesn't need my help in creating problems with other lineages! ;)



I am creating no problems for Robert; all my opinions are my own. Just like my WCK is my own. Robert helped me to make *my* WCK functional, and for that I will always be grateful. We only make problems for others when we speak for others. You might want to consider that.



I am first and foremost a WCK practitioner, and I practice WCK as a martial art. On this forum, I talk about WCK. If you have proof that your way of training produces significant gains in fighitng skills, then provide the evidence. You can't because it doesn't work. If you say your way of performing the SLT is traditional, then explain why no one performs it as you do. You can't. All you have are empty words, and no evidence to back any of them up. Your views have no substance behind them. Of course you don't want to discuss things with me -- because I ask for evidence (of which you have none) and don't defer to your "status" (which in my view is that of just another theoretical nonfighter).





1,

Excellent that you told the world who you are via your view.

As for you assumption about me, you dont know me and we have never met. So, feel free to speculate or twisting words.




2,
as for this meeting or that meeting in 2008 which you keep bring it up.

I have post a few weeks back for 3 times and more repeatly both in WCK.Com and KFO.com to asking you to visit california anytime soon if you are serious.

with your mid 2008 response,
Any serious business man knows what it is means to drag a meeting schedule for more then one year.

So, here on I address to the public that my offer for you is termninated today.
here on , Thanks but no thanks. No time for you.




Best Wishes on your path

[t_niehoff]

1,

Excellent that you told the world who you are via your view.

As for you assumption about me, you dont know me and we have never met. So, feel free to speculate or twisting words.


I am not speculating or twisting your words -- I am saying that you have presented no evidence to support any of your claims, that your way of training produces any significant gains in fighting (WCK) skill or that your way of performing SLT is traditional. You can refute me my providing the eivdence. If the evidence exists that should be an easy thing to do.



2,
as for this meeting or that meeting in 2008 which you keep bring it up.

I have post a few weeks back for 3 times and more repeatly both in WCK.Com and KFO.com to asking you to visit california anytime soon if you are serious.

with your mid 2008 response,
Any serious business man knows what it is means to drag a meeting schedule for more then one year.


I don't care what you post on wck.com -- we are having the discussion here on this forum; I'm sorry but I don't go searching the 'net for your replies. I am going to be in LA in June, 2008, since this is when Alan (from the UK) is going to be visiting Robert and he asked me to come then. As I want to meet with both he and Robert, I've set aside that time (I can kill two birds with one trip). I also hope to meet with Andrew, Dave, and some others then too (maybe even some of the HFY boys). This gives you plenty of time to make arrangements. My schedule is very demanding, and I need to plan far in advance. But, of course, you are always welcome to visit me (just give me advance notice). Or, just do yourself a very great favor, and go down to your local MMA gym and mix it up with some good people; see for yourself whether or not your views have any validity.



So, here on I address to the public that my offer for you is termninated today.
here on , Thanks but no thanks. No time for you.


Hendrik, I am not interested in anything you offer. And I'm not saying that to be mean or nasty -- just that I'm interested in WCK as a martial art, and I'm not going to get anything from someone who doesn't practice it as a martial art (excepts loads of theory). I'm interested in results that I can see.

[Hendrik]

Terence,

We are not in the same wave lenght and thus there is no need for any draining of energy.

Perhaps somedays our path will meet perhaps we will never meet.

However, never or less, I have nothing against you.


Best Wishes for your journey with love.

[t_niehoff]

And Hendrik, I have nothing personal against you -- I just don't accept anything on faith or theory. I question everything and I demand proof of claims. This includes constantly questioning myself and the things I do. The more I fight with WCK, the more my perception of WCK changes, as does my training. I am constantly evolving. If someone, anyone, can show me a better way, I will take and use it because what I am after is results, better performance with WCK. But -- and this is the big "but" -- they gotta really show those results.

You are, my friend, locked into a view that does not come from genuine experience using your WCK (fighting) but from a belief system (how you believe it should work). And because it is a belief system, and is not proved in or dependent upon reality (the fight), no one will ever be able to change your mind. It takes real courage to question your beloved views and put them to the test, to be willing to admit they are wrong if they don't produce results, to put your self-image of being sifu or inheritor or whatever aside -- but that is what it takes for real self-develoment, for real improvement in WCK.

[stricker]

ignoring squabbles and how far off topic from andrewS input this is but...


Did the ancient chinese have a true grasp of anatomy or physiology? No. Did they understand biomechanics? No. Did they understand how the nervous system really functions (about synapses, mylenin, etc.)? No. Or even about how diet effects atheltic performance? No. In terms of medicine, did they understand how the metabolism really works (like with energy production), about infectious disease, etc.? No. They were ignorant of all these things. They were ignorant of how the human body really works, and how to achieve athletic excellence.i almost cant believe your saying that. they must have known something to have come up with wing chun in the first place...

[t_niehoff]

ignoring squabbles and how far off topic from andrewS input this is but...

i almost cant believe your saying that. they must have known something to have come up with wing chun in the first place...

The japanese came up with jiujitsu (as a fighting method) too, that doesn't mean it was technically perfect or that their training methods were optimal. While it's technical basis remains, it has evolved quite a bit over time (Kano and then with BJJ). Those people still doing traditional JJJ haven't been able to compete successfully in a hundred years. People still keep doing it the old ways though. And you never see them at grappling events.

In the west, people came up with boxing, and it too has continued to evolve over time.

All viable fighitng methods have continued to evolve, and must continue, or else die.

Our ancestors certainly knew "something" but they also did not know a great deal. We have learned a lot more about how the body really works, how to better train athletes, how people learn better, what things work better in fighting, etc. Of course, we can ignore all that, believe that the old "masters" knew so much more that we today, that the legends are true, etc. and remain like the traditional JJJ guys, stuck in time.

How can we know whether some tradtional thing is viable today or not? Simple, it has to be justified by results. If the old guys were right, then it will work today in fighting good fighters.

[Knifefighter]

Terrence-

As someone who regularly applies his WC in full contact settings, how would you say your WC techniques and tactics differ from the one's that might be seen used MMA fights?

And how might they differ from what the theoretical non-fighters espouse WC should be?

[anerlich]

The fact remains that Sum Nung taught to clamp the knees and turn the feet in in the SLT. So is this not the "traditional way" of performing the SLT?

William Cheung (big T traditional WC) doesn't stand like that. Nor, IIRC, do HFY.

[t_niehoff]

William Cheung (big T traditional WC) doesn't stand like that. Nor, IIRC, do HFY.

No argument from me. Hendrik likes to point to certain people, like Sum and Yip, as examples of how the SLT should be practiced -- I was merely pointing out that even they didn't praactice the SLT as he advocates. FWIW, I doubt anyone ever did.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence-

As someone who regularly applies his WC in full contact settings, how would you say your WC techniques and tactics differ from the one's that might be seen used MMA fights?

And how might they differ from what the theoretical non-fighters espouse WC should be?

For me, WCK is essentially a fluid clinch fighting method (attached fighting but not body-locked) -- a form of dirty boxing, as it were. As such, it tends to be more stand-up grappling oriented with strikes thrown in. I don't think WCK is particularly effective on the outside (stand-up, free movement), and it doesn't offer much on the ground. WCK used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB since anything used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB.

[Knifefighter]

For me, WCK is essentially a fluid clinch fighting method (attached fighting but not body-locked) -- a form of dirty boxing, as it were. As such, it tends to be more stand-up grappling oriented with strikes thrown in. I don't think WCK is particularly effective on the outside (stand-up, free movement), and it doesn't offer much on the ground. WCK used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB since anything used in fighting will look like MMA/NHB.

Do you do any specific WCK training that would be different than what might be done in MMA/NHB/boxing/MT training?

[t_niehoff]

Do you do any specific WCK training that would be different than what might be done in MMA/NHB/boxing/MT training?

In my view, the "sportfighters" have developed the best way (so far) to train, so we have adopted their training model to WCK. The core of our training regimen is realistic sparring or situational (focusing on a slice of the fight) sparring using, of course, WCK tools. But I do use the classical WCK drills to teach. Once, however, the tools are learned and can be comfortably performed, they get put into sparring. (I should point out that the classical drills do not IME represent application -- how the tool will work in reality -- only that they permit repetition of the movement in an unrealistic environment).