Tiny students

[Mr Punch]

Just had someone start who's no taller than 5', whose forearm is less than my handspan and whose wrist is about the same as three of my fingers.

Normally I start students on SLT, punching mitts (there are no walls in Japan robust enough to put wall bags on!) and the heavy bag, and breaking down each move from SLT into a two person drill and a bag drill. Lots of repetition, then, by the time they're up to the second section of SLT if it's going smoothly I get them on turning drills and stepping drills etc.

This woman asked me if she could do wing chun and it would be useful for SD... There is no realistic way I could expect her to do a full speed and strength standing pak sao drill for eg without turning or stepping (of course I don't recommend doing pak or any other strike/deflection without putting your hips into it anyway, but as a drill to get the basics of working out how the impact relates to your stance...).

Any tips please gentlemen (ladies? I remember there used to be some round here!)?

[AndrewS]

For some of her basics, put her up on a step so she's roughly the same height as her partners, and can learn to handle force coming straight at her. If you don't do that she'll get everyone who works with her leaning over, and she may develop a backwards lean (if she's not under signficant pressure) which will be to the detriment of her stance. Mix that with her on the floor so she translates the mechanics from being on the same level, to being where she usually is, and focus on getting her to feel how to lever under people and use a lower center of gravity with a nice erect posture. Add to that some female self-defense specific standing hold defenses (clumsy masher stuff like the side grab) as a starting point (defending a single is probably not a priority with her), and focus on aggression, elbows, and finding room to get away fast.

There's a bunch of awareness and psychological stuff which is useful too.

Andrew

[Lindley]

Mr. Punch,

I have had this (type of) student. I put her through our standard program. The bouncing around during two person exercises will be the experience from which she will draw from to understand how she must use her advantages. Make sure your other students are not malicious, but purposeful with her. Don't worry, if she is determined she will find the way to make the Kung Fu work for her body type. As a beginner, she must be patient and you nor your students must not feel obligated to make special arrangements for her. I agree it would be a good idea that she plays exercises on a horse or from some seated position where she can focus on the hand positions first.

Remember that the Kung Fu becomes dynamic over time. In a static case, yes, she might be very vulnerable to force and power. But over time, as you have mentioned angling and hips (which done properly needs time to develop), she will gain some ability to handle this. Like the Yin and Yang, we must experience the opposite action to understand the action (cannot learn to relax without understanding tension).

Good luck....

[Buddha_Fist]

Create a special Oompa Loompa class! ;)

[Mr Punch]

For some of her basics, put her up on a step so she's roughly the same height as her partners, and can learn to handle force coming straight at her. If you don't do that she'll get everyone who works with her leaning over, and she may develop a backwards lean (if she's not under signficant pressure) which will be to the detriment of her stance. I don't know if that's a good idea... The other students should be able to adapt by using a lower stance, and when she gets a bit more useful, they'll need to know how to react with a small opponent anyway. And while I'll have to make sure she7s not developing a backwards leaning stance (she shouldn't do anyway if she's following what I show her, because that would mean she would be easy to use downward sinking force on to overbalance which'd be easy to note) she'll have to get used to keeping a proper stance against taller opponents from day one, no?
Mix that with her on the floor so she translates the mechanics from being on the same level, to being where she usually is, and focus on getting her to feel how to lever under people and use a lower center of gravity with a nice erect posture. Of course the levering under people and elbows and whatnot are all good advice... so you'd recommend starting her on footwork exercises earlier than 'standard sized'(!) students?

[Mr Punch]

Lindley, I already answered her with the point she's going to need a lot more patience than most. But specifically in order to train the floor-hip-elbow connectivity you need in slt I usually do static drills first, and the things you mention need turning...

For example, a simple pak against a punch strong enough to learn the energies involved for her will put her in serious danger of breaking her wrist. Of course, as I said I don't recommend a static standing pak for anyone when a turn is much safer, but to learn basic forces I always show one first.

It'll be especially interesting when she gets to play with my three bros who're 195, 197 and 199cm or so!

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Mr. Punch,
I saw this and thought I'd post.
We have a few women who train with us and 2 of them are twins about 18 years old. They don't weigh much more than I'd say 110 lbs, but they are a little taller than 5 feet. Either way, these 2 girls can punch hard. They've been with us for a few years and keep up with the guys. No special treatment, and they'll actually say something if they think you're pulling punches.

The one thing I've noticed about women training, is that there is essentially no ego involved. They accept that they won't be stronger than any of the guys, so they focus on structure, balance, technique, timing ....

Actually the other day I went home with a bunch of bruises on my chest from their tiny fists of fury :p

BTW, we did have 2 guys with us who were 6 foot 6" and 6 foot 7" and that's a challenge for most people.

J

[Mr Punch]

Either way, these 2 girls can punch hard. They've been with us for a few years and keep up with the guys. No special treatment, and they'll actually say something if they think you're pulling punches.Thanks for the input Jeff.

There's no danger of my giving her special treatment... if you can't hack it she can't hack it: I did say she's going to need more patience and it might not be for her.

I remember many years ago when I was shodan at aikido and in my lineup there was a nikkyu woman of about 5' who got very offended and insulting of me when I didn't throw her full speed and strength. I retorted that it was because I didn't know her, she was small, nikkyus in many schools can't take the breakfalls of nikkyus in our school (renowned for harder practice) and furthermore we were practicing what was essentially a higher-than-nikkyu-level tech on a very crowded mat. She wasn't happy, but I'm afraid to say, women who automatically assume I'm being sexist are being sexist and will get short shrift!

Anyway, maybe she'll be able to punch as hard as the big boys in the next couple of years, but the fact remains, I very much doubt she can take the punishment or the same training as I took when I started... and as I'm currently dishing out to our other beginner, who's a 6'4" weightlifting taekwondo dan-grade with experience in full-contact competition and a budding career in stunts.

And I agree with women's focus being more exacting, I've taught a lot of women in aikido, just not WC. (I've met women in MA with huge egos though, but that's another digression!)

I'm not concerned with the PC aspects at all: I was looking for physical pointers for training her.

You're basically saying that your twins were taught in the same way from scratch as any other beginners?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey,

"You're basically saying that your twins were taught in the same way from scratch as any other beginners? "

Yup. Basically you treat them as any other beginner. You wouldn't go all out on someone just starting because there would be no point to it. Just try and stay a little bit above their level (whatever that is, for whatever drill)

As far as being male or female, if you decide to pressure test their stance for example, you'll increase or decrease the amount of pressure you're giving them based on how well they respond to you. Right?

The way I see it, is that we don't have an on or off button, but more like a dimmer switch. We give enough light that's needed, if you need a lot, then turn it all the way on. Otherwise it's a waste of energy.

J

[AndrewS]

I don't know if that's a good idea... The other students should be able to adapt by using a lower stance, and when she gets a bit more useful, they'll need to know how to react with a small opponent anyway. And while I'll have to make sure she7s not developing a backwards leaning stance (she shouldn't do anyway if she's following what I show her, because that would mean she would be easy to use downward sinking force on to overbalance which'd be easy to note) she'll have to get used to keeping a proper stance against taller opponents from day one, no?

5' vs. 6' is not reasonably compensated for by lowering the stance. Someone winds up developing bad habits out of it. If/when she gets to poon sao, it will essentially change the entire dynamic. Put her up on blocks and she'll better feel when people are leaning on her when she's not at the same height and learn to deal with it.


Of course the levering under people and elbows and whatnot are all good advice... so you'd recommend starting her on footwork exercises earlier than 'standard sized'(!) students?

Much footwork, early, and a lot of work on developing useable weapons.

From a pragmatic standpoint, for self-defense someone that size should learn stick and knife work.

Andrew

[Liddel]

..... a simple pak against a punch strong enough to learn the energies involved for her will put her in serious danger of breaking her wrist. Of course, as I said I don't recommend a static standing pak for anyone when a turn is much safer, but to learn basic forces I always show one first.


If you threw her in the deep end she'd be more likely to break a finger because of incorrect timing and contact position rather than her wrist IMO.

IME with 'tiny people', you should expose her to actions like Pak Sao etc from touching positions / drills first. This will build confidence and more important in this case strength in actions. Strength from structure and momentum of horse / body.
Yu Ma Lik.

Introduce Pak Sao to her at the chi sao / poon sao and lop sao levels, this combined with an accomodating partner and footwork would ease her into it much more and let her "find her own groove" with regard to performing the actions.

Only then adding realistic force, means she can add power to a skill already forged in her natural action bag. Rather than adding skill to force.

Teaching her this way IMO will get quicker and more sound results in regards to her actions contact position and timing / tempo, for non contact position senarios.

Of course as you already mentioned, youd have to intoduce stepping and turning drills and chi sao earlier to her than other students....
Just my under rated kiwi dollars worth ;)

[Sekabin]

I honestly don't think there'll be a problem. I've had some experience of teaching a girl with very thin wrists (though she was a little taller). It all comes down to the teacher, and the training partners being reasonable--i.e. giving reasonable force. If the partner is trying to kill her with all of their might then there could be a problem (but more likely that she'd get hurt from being punched rather than breaking her wrist). True enough she might sprain her wrist from incorrect positioning when she's doing a pak sau, but that could happen with anyone.

She won't lean back provided the partner isn't trying to punch through her head each time.

I'm not so sure it's necessary to teach her turning first. I think it will take some more time before she's able to practically use her kung fu, but with time she could be strong (though I haven't seen her of course... I could be wrong!).

Anyway, it's always the short ones you've got to worry about, they can be the most scary! :D

[Master Rob]

There is just something about this thread that creeps me out...

[Sekabin]

From a pragmatic standpoint, for self-defense someone that size should learn stick and knife work.

Andrew, carrying a knife is not practical in Japan. Or are you referring only to knife 'defenses'?

[Buddha_Fist]

Andrew, carrying a knife is not practical in Japan. Or are you referring only to knife 'defenses'?

Do you mean with "not practical" not allowed by law? If so, then go with pepperspray (I assume guns are also not allowed... ;) sigh...).

Fact is, a really tiny person will most likely be knocked out in no time by the street savy average joe. Period.

Of course, it's always better to at least try to do something - but be realistic with that something that you are already going to invest time in.

[Sekabin]

Do you mean with "not practical" not allowed by law? If so, then go with pepperspray (I assume guns are also not allowed... ;) sigh...).


Not practical as in you don't want to f**k with the Japanese police. Japan is not the USA. But I'm sure you know that.

[Buddha_Fist]

Not practical as in you don't want to f**k with the Japanese police. Japan is not the USA. But I'm sure you know that.


Robocop? :D

[AndrewS]

Sek,

not knife defenses, how to fight with a knife.

The best equalizer for large vs. small- thumbs.

Andrew

[Mr Punch]

The way I see it, is that we don't have an on or off button, but more like a dimmer switch. We give enough light that's needed, if you need a lot, then turn it all the way on. Otherwise it's a waste of energy.This bit is especially nicely put, and I agree with your post.


5' vs. 6' is not reasonably compensated for by lowering the stance. Someone winds up developing bad habits out of it. If/when she gets to poon sao, it will essentially change the entire dynamic. Put her up on blocks and she'll better feel when people are leaning on her when she's not at the same height and learn to deal with it.I see your point but I'm afraid I still don't agree. The fact is there is that difference in height and a 'normal' level sao (as in to the level it is in SLT - one's own solar plexus or one's own nose or throat or whatever) is not going to work against someone a foot taller than you, and the sooner she realizes that and we can find a workable alternative using similar dynamics the better.

As for the people 'beating on her' the way people naturally fight much smaller people is different, and the drill work should reflect that from scratch. If the bigger students develop bad habits I'll check them, but they should be 'fighting' naturally.


Much footwork, early, and a lot of work on developing useable weapons.

From a pragmatic standpoint, for self-defense someone that size should learn stick and knife work.

AndrewWith you with the footwork. I usually introduce it as early as possible anyway.

As Sek pointed out knifework is pointless (! :D ) in Japan. Simply, for a developed nation Japan has the worst human rights (that is, the concept is just that). The police and criminal law are ridiculous.

Apart from which, I don't know any!


If you threw her in the deep end she'd be more likely to break a finger because of incorrect timing and contact position rather than her wrist IMO. She really is tiny. Japanese people have a different bone structure to westerners apart from a just a smaller frame, and I've literally never met a tinier person. Even with the resiliance of the human body blah blah blah, something has a strong chance of breaking anyway! :eek:


you should expose her to actions like Pak Sao etc from touching positions / drills first. I like this. Good point.


Introduce Pak Sao to her at the chi sao / poon sao and lop sao levels, this combined with an accomodating partner and footwork would ease her into it much more and let her "find her own groove" with regard to performing the actions...Teaching her this way IMO will get quicker and more sound results in regards to her actions contact position and timing / tempo, for non contact position senarios.

That's good too.

I'm also going to start her on the moving dan chi sao pretty much as soon as she gets the basic gist of the static one.


I honestly don't think there'll be a problem. Wait till you meet her mate! I can't wait to see you two, or her and D training together!
It all comes down to the teacher, and the training partners being reasonable--i.e. giving reasonable force.Well, you know who's teaching her and you know I measure my force carefully. I'm more worried about you!:p


She won't lean back provided the partner isn't trying to punch through her head each time.Probably true. Plus, I'm inclined to teach her more boxing style covering with the wing chun. The slipping and bobbing would be useful for getting her out of the way.


I'm not so sure it's necessary to teach her turning first.S showed her the 'correct' position of a tan and the rooting concept (she's done Shaolin and Tai Chi so rooting isn't so foreign to her) and lightly knocked her arm to check it out. Her whole body lifted off the ground and she flew back a foot or so. I highly doubt she's much over 35 kgs.


Anyway, it's always the short ones you've got to worry about, they can be the most scary! :DEr no. I know your sifu, and mine, are much shorter than us but I don't agree with this at all!


go with peppersprayI'm not sure but I don't think that's legal either. Sigh. What I do know and I can teach are various ways of using any hand-held device (mobile etc) effectively as a striking implement.
Fact is, a really tiny person will most likely be knocked out in no time by the street savy average joe. Period.

Of course, it's always better to at least try to do something - but be realistic with that something that you are already going to invest time in.This is true. I'm going to tell her ways of getting the hell out of situations, and positional/evasion drills more than any emphasis on going to toe -o-toe with anyone.


Sek,

not knife defenses, how to fight with a knife.
I'd like to I don't know how I'm afraid to say. Plus as Sek said, it isn't an option.

[Liddel]

She really is tiny. Japanese people have a different bone structure to westerners apart from a just a smaller frame, and I've literally never met a tinier person. Even with the resiliance of the human body blah blah blah, something has a strong chance of breaking anyway! :eek:


Fair enough, i guess i didnt think she was REALLY small from what you posted but she sounds SMALL now !

What about making her very mobile through stance work then just teach her how to have very heavy hands (for her size).

Then her game plan in fighting can be to avoid shots, staying on the outside, only to close the gap to give the VT blast, if shes that small her punches will be at most peoples groin height and big or small, its a sensitive area for us all :p

Good luck with teaching her, it'll be a learning experience for you both ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have taught people that were 4'9" and 90 pounds. I have known a few sifu that were in a hurry to teach. I guess there is nothing wrong with that, but some tend to start these people into physical contact training way too soon. Possibly you are getting in too much of a rush with her? A regimen of physical conditioning to strengthen her and then Sil Lim until she can do it slow and fast and perfectly. Then start working her with the Chi Sao. A little light bag work maybe while she is learning the Sil Lim form in order to help develop her hands. She can't do any good working and training with others until she is proficient and knows what she is doing anyway.

Po

[Merryprankster]

I am not a WC guy but it occurs to me that you'll want to get her working on getting in close as quickly as you can.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have sat and talked with people during early training and have been told by women that the stance and fighting moves are perfectly designed for women. If they fight they will almost automatically take these positions, even if never introduced to WC. Men on the other hand have told me that it is just about the most clumsy positions they have ever tried to use. Especially when punching and blocking. Blocking seems to come much easier than punching. The virtical punch is a very clumsy move until you have developed it somewhat. This is why the wooden man and the punching pads. They can just whomp away at it without injuring themselves or any one else.
I have at times tried to join in at a kwoon, but am not excepted because of my background in WC. I would be a student and most sifu will not take me in. I have gone and watched however, and I have seen that a lot of the students are not really proficient in the punch or any of the hand techniques for that matter. I was watching a young woman throwing a finger stab from her right stance. The hand and arm was stiffened before the move and her fingers were just slightly bent backwards. Had she struck an opponent with this and had hit forehead or other boney structure her fingers would have folded backwards and injured her. Then her opponent would literally beat her down. I wanted to stop her and show her the proper way but I did not dare do that. In watching her sifu, he did it the exact same way.