Shaolin-Do numbers

[yutyeesam]

Hi. I was wondering if those of you seniors doing Shaolin-Do could tell me if this is an accurate protrayal of the number of SD schools in the country:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/schools/schoollocations.shtml

Also, how many people in the SD association? It has to be a huge number. What's an average headcount at a school?

I'm trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I'm trying to see if I am right. I don't count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.

Thanks,
123

[xcakid]

I'm trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I'm trying to see if I am right. I don't count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.

Thanks,
123



Are you talking franchise or chain Kung Fu schools? Not many.

In my experience, most black sashes after getting their sifu's blessing, will start their own KF Kwoon. They teach the same style. Master Tat Mau Wong is the only one I know of that has a few school under his name. Master Doc Fai Wong and Master Leung Shum all have schools under their own associations. Even then the curriculum may vary by schools.

However, if we are talking style, I believe Northern Shaolin Long Fist is the most taught in KF schools here in the US. That may not be quite accurate though.

[Flaca]

Hi. I was wondering if those of you seniors doing Shaolin-Do could tell me if this is an accurate protrayal of the number of SD schools in the country:
http://www.shaolin-do.com/schools/schoollocations.shtml

Also, how many people in the SD association? It has to be a huge number. What's an average headcount at a school?

I'm trying to determine what the largest Kung-Fu school is in America. My guess was SD, and I'm trying to see if I am right. I don't count Kempo, so Villari is out of the picture.

Thanks,
123
It varies by school. My area (Central TX) has maybe 600 students. There are some very large schools (eastern Tennessee, Atlanta, Kentucky, Denver, central TX) and lots of small schools (Tampa, DC, Ithaca). At a guess, there are probably 5000 SD students at any given time.

There are many SD schools that have no SD association members. Possibly 25% in my area are SD Association members. I am in the SDA, and some of my friends are, but not all.

[Judge Pen]

Yes, the SDA is a seperate organization of SD schools. The SDA website is fairly accurate, but there are a few schools that I know of that are not current from that site.

[BoulderDawg]

I wonder if you could count SD and CSC as being the same. If so then there are a goodish number of students under this banner. I've also wondered about independants. I've heard of Black Belts leaving SD and CSC and forming their own schools.

I do know that if you look at the web sites for SD and CSC they basically have the same forms but they have slightly different names. I was wondering if there is a legal reason for this.

[Judge Pen]

I do know that if you look at the web sites for SD and CSC they basically have the same forms but they have slightly different names. I was wondering if there is a legal reason for this.


No, I think its just a slightly different translation/interpretation of the name. I understand some names to be changed by some schools to bring them more in line with main-stream pronounciation (chuan instead of chien for example). And yes, I would include the CSC in that. Anything under GM Sin The's supervision.

[Judge Pen]

Yes that's a fairly accurate list of SD (including CSC banner) schools...I will get you a figure for the SDA (keep in mind not all students are SDA members)...you will have to contact CSC schools for a student count....KFJ could help you there....you will also have to contact the Mullins schools (Tenn.) for a head count there.....JP can help you out there.:)
BQ

We will need ATLs count too.

[yutyeesam]

What is CSC?

I imagine there are a lot more students than association members. Every SD school has over 500 students, would that be somewhat accurate to say?

-123

[Judge Pen]

What is CSC?

I imagine there are a lot more students than association members. Every SD school has over 500 students, would that be somewhat accurate to say?

-123

Chinese Shaolin Center. Its the organization operated by the Soards.

No, its not accurate. I would dare say that most SD students are in community centers, school gyms, etc. That was my first school: part time in an elementary school gym. The large schools, like Master Joe's, are probably the exception not the rule. My current teacher also teaches part time in a chuch fellowship hall.

[jason.]

Are you talking franchise or chain Kung Fu schools? Not many.

In my experience, most black sashes after getting their sifu's blessing, will start their own KF Kwoon. They teach the same style. Master Tat Mau Wong is the only one I know of that has a few school under his name. Master Doc Fai Wong and Master Leung Shum all have schools under their own associations. Even then the curriculum may vary by schools.

However, if we are talking style, I believe Northern Shaolin Long Fist is the most taught in KF schools here in the US. That may not be quite accurate though.

If you are thinking external this may be true of Northern Shaolin Long Fist ,

but if consider you are considering both external and internal I would say taiji, though that may not be accurate either.

[xcakid]

but if consider you are considering both external and internal I would say taiji, though that may not be accurate either.


I believe you are correct on that one. Cause just about any KF school will teach one form of Taiji or another(Wu/Chen/Yang) as well as Ken(m)po schools, but very rare do you see Xing Yi or Bagua. Heck there are even some Karate schools that will teach Taiji

[BoulderDawg]

I would say 500 would be an extreme high number for our school. I would say Denver/Boulder may have 100-300 active members at any time. I base this on who's there when I go. On occasion we've had up to 50 members for a class however this is rare and usually happens around Jan/Feb.

Of course members who's let their membership expire....That could go into the thousands.

[brucereiter]

We will need ATLs count too.

hi jp,

the atlanta chinese shaolin centers schools and clubs have about 500 that are "on the books" ... 400 people that are active.

best,

bruce

[Meat Shake]

SD is spreading out like a fat girl on a wooden mattress...
Not good.

[Baqualin]

SD is spreading out like a fat girl on a wooden mattress...
Not good.

Like it's a really big deal...I guess the world is coming to an end.:rolleyes:
BQ

[yutyeesam]

SD is spreading out like a fat girl on a wooden mattress...
Not good.

Actually, it is good. I bet Shaolin Do is reaching people who would've:

a. never even thought of doing Kung-Fu in the first place
b. people who are in places where there probably is very little to no CMA at all

Say what one will on the vailidity/authenticity. It can't be denied the fact that SD is effective with marketing and leadership. I think CMA school owners can learn something from SD's organizational model. If we have the art that we think is great guns, then we should learn from the way Sin The runs his organizations.

Yes there are successful CMA schools with high numbers. But SD has CMA schools with high numbers all across the country. I really doubt any single CMA school has been able to do this with this level of success.

-123

[xcakid]

Yes there are successful CMA schools with high numbers. But SD has CMA schools with high numbers all across the country. I really doubt any single CMA school has been able to do this with this level of success.

-123

Based on my experience with old school CMA masters that I have run across or studied under, which seems to be the concensus. They are less about business models or churning out intructors. They are more about teaching what they know and passing it on to a select few and not the masses. It dilutes the teaching less that way. Teach 5-10 properly and have them teach 5-10 people. Rather than teaching 100 who would then teach 1000 and the system gets diluted.


My old Sil Lum instructor taught out of a 4plex apartment. The 2 unit dnstairs was gutted out and the walls torn down to make one big area. The upstairs was where he lived. He had a bunch of students. I am sure some missed a monthly payment or two. Small one line blurb in yellow pages. He couldn't be happier. He just wanted to be able to teach and share his art. Did not care wether or not he had a bunch of schools. Sadly I left that school after a few years to try something else.

I taught at a large group, Villari and USSD. Although the art was great. The "business model" got in the way. The "growth plan" got in the way. The teachings got diluted. Its not all about numbers, quality tends to suffer. I understand that now.

I don't have experience with Shaolin-Do, and I sincerely hope that they don't go by way of Villari or USSD.

[BoulderDawg]

The business of Kung Fu. Just for the fun of it I've tried to guess revenue and profit for the CSC.

I'm guessing the Soards make a good living however I don't believe they are getting rich. As mentioned before I don't really know the active dues paying members in the Denver/Boulder area but I would guess 200. I'm also guessing (maybe a little on the high side here but I'm not sure)that after dues, festivals and weapons the average student pays $100 a month. That's around $240,000 in revenue for the year. After taxes and operating expenses and COGS that gets whittled down a lot. Several advantages here are that the only operating expenses are rent and utilities. Labor doesn't seem to be a big deal as they don't pay their instructors. Also it's my guess is they probably avoid taxes by running close to break even every year.

I have no idea what the franchise fees bring. I do know that some of those schools are tiny so it can't be a whole lot.

My guess is the Masters biggest money makers are putting on out of town festivals.

[kwaichang]

SD isnt spreading out that fast due to the politics of the sections and all. KC

[kungfujunky]

bd didnt you quit?

[BoulderDawg]

I'm still an active member.....I just haven't been since December. Plus I stay in touch.

[kungfujunky]

why not come back in then.

you just tested to black right?

pm me..id like to meet up

[sunfist]

Actually, it is good. I bet Shaolin Do is reaching people who would've:

a. never even thought of doing Kung-Fu in the first place
b. people who are in places where there probably is very little to no CMA at all

Say what one will on the vailidity/authenticity. It can't be denied the fact that SD is effective with marketing and leadership. I think CMA school owners can learn something from SD's organizational model. If we have the art that we think is great guns, then we should learn from the way Sin The runs his organizations.

Yes there are successful CMA schools with high numbers. But SD has CMA schools with high numbers all across the country. I really doubt any single CMA school has been able to do this with this level of success.

-123

SD is not a CMA.

















Ill show myself out :)

[Baqualin]

SD is not a CMA.

















Ill show myself out :)

Thats your opinion & you know what they say about that:)
OH...Good Bye:D

[tattooedmonk]

Thats your opinion & you know what they say about that:)
OH...Good Bye:DNICE.Have a great day!!!

[Lamassu]

Yay!! Another thread for Shaolin Do to dominate!! :D I'd like to thank meatshake and sunfist for providing their asinine opinions without bringing any real substance to the topic at hand. You guys are great! :p

[Leto]

CSC has no franchise fees, as far as I know. At least that's what my teacher said. it's not officially a franchise. Some of the smaller schools aren't breaking even, or just barely. They don't pay their assistant instructors, but i think they might give credit applicable towards memberships and classes, essentially letting them train for free. At least that's what we did at my former school for a while (until our teacher couldn't afford it anymore). The Soards have a lot more students than any of the other schools, though, and so are making a lot more just on memberships and inventory. The seminars make a lot of money, too, especially the ones in denver and boulder, where there will be close to a hundred students sometimes. I have no idea how much they take home at the end of the day. For most instructors, it's a labor of love. A lot of them need another source of income to make ends meet.

[BoulderDawg]

Well, if that's the way they make their living, I sincerely doubt they would allow you to put up a CSC banner outside of your school just out of the goodness of their hearts.:D I think it's a pretty safe bet they get something out of the schools.

Festivals are a big money maker however that was factored into the $100/month number. Testing is also a big money maker...although I would be willing to pay more monthly and do away with testing fees.

[Judge Pen]

I can't speak for anyone else, but there are no "franchise fees" or percentages in our end of the world.

[kungfujunky]

csc has no franchise costs.

[BoulderDawg]

csc has no franchise costs.

How would you know that for sure? I sure would not let them use my intellectual property(name) or say that I'm associated with CSC unless I got a little something.

[John Many Jars]

I seem to remember Master Sharon saying as much a year or so ago. They also said GMT doesn't collect franchise fees (from CSC). Just what they make from the grand master festivals.

[kungfujunky]

i know that because i have asked.

they make their money from testing and festivals.

[Leto]

I think the CSC instructors may sign some kind of contract. I know the official assistant instructors do, indicating that they will not do drugs or drink alcohol, will not be a member of another martial arts school, and some other stuff I don't remember now. In the Springs, our instructor got the paperwork and material for the assistant instructor contracts from them, so I know they use it in Denver/Boulder. The school owners/instructors need to attend the annual or bi-annual instructor training with the Soards, which is probably where they would sign such a thing. I don't know if the instructor contract might give the Soards the power to take a CSC school away from someone who breaks the rules. Probably not, but they of course have the power to strip someone of their rank and tell them that they legally can't call the school CSC anymore.

[Judge Pen]

I think the CSC instructors may sign some kind of contract. I know the official assistant instructors do, indicating that they will not drink alcohol.


That would disqualify me. :p

[godzillakungfu]

That would disqualify me. :p
Its taken out of context.

It has more to do with things in the past. Let's say it is more to do with an Instructor getting drunk with students than having a few at home.

There are no franchise fees, as in intellectual property, as BD is saying. If you combine what Leto and BD are saying you are on the right track.

I'll continue to lurk correcting what I can.

No, possible lawsuits for me thank you.:)

[Radhnoti]

No franchise fees for my old school in KY (3 yrs ago). GM Sin charged testing fees on a sliding scale that increased as you progressed. The only thing I found odd about THAT was it was cash only. I showed up for my first belt test with my check book and had to scramble to put together the cash to test.
We were encouraged to attend GM Sin's seminars and, once, to donate for a car. Nothing too scandalous in my opinion.
Hope everyone is doing well.

[Meat Shake]

"I'd like to thank meatshake and sunfist for providing their asinine opinions without bringing any real substance to the topic at hand. You guys are great!"

Read my other threads smart guy. I trained SD for two years before I decided my time would be better spent fighting.
Hooray for more kids and women getting fit, Im just tired of hearing about deadly tiger style and drunken kung fu...
Its like when someone tells me they have a blackbelt in TKD... Its just kind of a joke at this point.

[Baqualin]

"I'd like to thank meatshake and sunfist for providing their asinine opinions without bringing any real substance to the topic at hand. You guys are great!"

Read my other threads smart guy. I trained SD for two years before I decided my time would be better spent fighting.
Hooray for more kids and women getting fit, Im just tired of hearing about deadly tiger style and drunken kung fu...
Its like when someone tells me they have a blackbelt in TKD... Its just kind of a joke at this point.

Ok smarter guy...2 years means nothing other than SD might not be for you....doesn't make what you do better only better for you. You also seem typical of alot of people on these forums...if your not doing what I do, YOUR WRONG and that my friend is an asinine opinion. Your full of yourself.
Have a Nice Day:)
BQ

[Golden Tiger]

No franchise fees for my old school in KY (3 yrs ago). GM Sin charged testing fees on a sliding scale that increased as you progressed. The only thing I found odd about THAT was it was cash only. I showed up for my first belt test with my check book and had to scramble to put together the cash to test.
We were encouraged to attend GM Sin's seminars and, once, to donate for a car. Nothing too scandalous in my opinion.
Hope everyone is doing well.


I am doing fine Rad, thanks for asking:cool:

As far as the Ky area goes, there has never been a franchise fee. You were given a "franchise" area meaning that no other SD teachers could start a school within 20-30 miles but that was it. To be given the option to teach, you did have to agree to allow Master Sin to test your students and collect a test fee (was like $20 for ever then turned into the sliding scale Rad mentioned just a few years ago), and were asked to purchase the uniforms and equipment through the lex gym. I say asked because I always got mine through AWMA and no one ever said anything to me.

Teachers were also encouraged to get their students to attend the tournements and seminars and to join the SDA but it was never manditory. Heck, I joined it but only one or two of my students ever did.

The car donation was for his 60?? b-day I think. I wish people thought enough of me to buy me a freakin car! The one he had here that was used to visit the schools out and about was close to falling apart.

As for the cash only deal, there might be other reasons but the main one was that he would come in to test the students, then return to Cali. When he would try to cash the checks, EVERY time, there would be 4 or 5 that bounced. He would then have to send them to the gym, or to the students instructors and have to get someone to track down the money. Having taught in a few different towns than the one I lived in, it happened to me more times than I can count and I too went over to a cash only deal. Heck, now a lot of stores wont take checks anymore so I feel we were just ahead of the curve.

And since no one else has mentioned it, Liu Sing rocks:D

[brucereiter]

And since no one else has mentioned it, Liu Sing rocks:D

i am looking forward to seeing/learning it ... next year i guess ...

[Baqualin]

And since no one else has mentioned it, Liu Sing rocks:D

I'm still sore from it:D It was an awesome day:)
BQ

[BM2]

And since no one else has mentioned it, Liu Sing rocks:D[/QUOTE]

No pun intended? It is nice.

[BoulderDawg]

As for the cash only deal, there might be other reasons but the main one was that he would come in to test the students, then return to Cali. When he would try to cash the checks, EVERY time, there would be 4 or 5 that bounced. He would then have to send them to the gym, or to the students instructors and have to get someone to track down the money. Having taught in a few different towns than the one I lived in, it happened to me more times than I can count and I too went over to a cash only deal. Heck, now a lot of stores wont take checks anymore so I feel we were just ahead of the curve.


NSF checks have always been a fact of life and a part of doing business. However in the last 10 years I think this has become less of a problem. There is better tracking and communication. Also most people use debit cards these days instead of checks.

My question would be 4-5 bounced checked out of how many? Given the situation I would very surprised if I had that many out of 500 checks. The main reason is because of the business. Most students would not give you a NSF check. They would like to continue in the program but probably would not be allowed if they did not make the check good. Also it's just too expensive. I charge $35 for a bounced check. Put this with the bank charges and that runs into some serious money. I also run any NSF checks through twice so if it bounces twice.......

Personally I carry very little money. If a debit card or check is not good enough for you then we usually don't do business. A "cash only" basis sheds a bad light on your business no matter the reason. And if the business is large enough it will soon attract the attention of Uncle Sam.

[Golden Tiger]

If a debit card or check is not good enough for you then we usually don't do business. A "cash only" basis sheds a bad light on your business no matter the reason. And if the business is large enough it will soon attract the attention of Uncle Sam.

Then we probably wouldn't. I don't carry much if any cash these days myself unless I know that I will need it. And if someone knows months ahead of time that the need to have 30 or 40 dollars in cold hard cash, I don't see how that is a problem.

And when you consider that he travels to about 20 small towns through out Ky testing, the feasibility of carrying a CC machine kinda goes out the window.

[Golden Tiger]

No pun intended? It is nice

Actually, I didn't think of that until you mentioned it:p

I think what impressed me the most was watching him go thru it, if you notice the position of his strikes, they are generally dead on (pun intended) where they are supposed to be. It just reaffirms my confidence in Master Sin and the system.

I saw you a time or two BM2 but never got to say hello. Hope that you are doing well.

[Baqualin]

Actually, I didn't think of that until you mentioned it:p

I think what impressed me the most was watching him go thru it, if you notice the position of his strikes, they are generally dead on (pun intended) where they are supposed to be. It just reaffirms my confidence in Master Sin and the system.

I saw you a time or two BM2 but never got to say hello. Hope that you are doing well.

I'm sure you noticed in the first round demo, the speed & power he still has.:D
BQ

[godzillakungfu]

As for the cash only deal, there might be other reasons but the main one was that he would come in to test the students, then return to Cali. When he would try to cash the checks, EVERY time, there would be 4 or 5 that bounced. The West actually tries to take care of that by having the instructor, hosting the seminar, draw the total funds of their account.

So, if it was held in Los Angeles, that instructor would draw one check for all of his/her students. Each instructor of every state would do the same for his/her students. Then the hosting instructor would cut one check and give it to GMT. That way any problems, unfortunately, would fall back to the hosting instructor.

[BoulderDawg]

The West actually tries to take care of that by having the instructor, hosting the seminar, draw the total funds of their account.

So, if it was held in Los Angeles, that instructor would draw one check for all of his/her students. Each instructor of every state would do the same for his/her students. Then the hosting instructor would cut one check and give it to GMT. That way any problems, unfortunately, would fall back to the hosting instructor.

In any case the story sounded odd to me. I'm of the understanding that Sin test second black and above. Therefore going through 20 individual small towns in Kentucky to test one or two people at a time does not make a lot of sense.

However you're right. There should be an appearance charge that is paid by the school. Any transactions with the students should be handled by the school itself.

In any case I can only speak about the school I attended. As far as I know there has never been any problems with anyone at our school as far as giving the Masters a NSF check. I'm sure it has happened but was corrected ASAP. It's no big deal and I doubt it rarely happens here. "4 or 5 checks at a time"?...I'm amazed.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm of the understanding that Sin test second black and above.

Nope, when he is in town, just about every day he is traveling to the schools away from Lexington. The schools are scheduled and usually one of the students from the main gym drives him there. BQ can attest to this. Talk about some good one on one talk time.

Also, he tests all ranks here, from white up. During testing when he is not here, Master Bill or one of the other Masters do the testing.

[Baqualin]

Nope, when he is in town, just about every day he is traveling to the schools away from Lexington. The schools are scheduled and usually one of the students from the main gym drives him there. BQ can attest to this. Talk about some good one on one talk time.

Also, he tests all ranks here, from white up. During testing when he is not here, Master Bill or one of the other Masters do the testing.

That's exactly the way it is here.
BQ

[BM2]

NSF are mostly from students who have set a goal of quitting once they attain a certain belt level.
I recall when writting down everyone's name and what they were testing for that day, if someone did have a check, he wanted their instructor's name.

[kungfujunky]

in csc he tests only upper blacks at the denver festival. all other visits by him to csc locations he tests all levels.

we do have the bonus of getting forms from him on all of his visits. a lot of schools just see him for testing.

[Meat Shake]

Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight. If you condensed 3 belts material into one entire system, then yes, maybe there would be some people who actually could use something they learned...

[Lamassu]

Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight. If you condensed 3 belts material into one entire system, then yes, maybe there would be some people who actually could use something they learned...

Then why do you keep posting here? If you don't like Shaolin Do so much, then go to another web forum. Whether you like it or not Shaolin Do isn't going anywhere, so you might as well save yourself the pain of reading our posts, that really don't concern you since you are no longer a part of SD, and just go somewhere else. Personally, I'm getting tired of hearing all this macho, toughguy posturing from people who have no real insight into the subject at hand and all they talk about is what a bunch of bada$$es they are. You enjoy fighting so much, then get off the computer and get into a bar room brawl, or fight club or something.

[Baqualin]

Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight. If you condensed 3 belts material into one entire system, then yes, maybe there would be some people who actually could use something they learned...

You spent 2 years in SD in one school and you say no one in the entire system knows how to actually fight. WOW

You just showed me you know nothing of system or the people in it....that statement makes me laugh.:D

There's really nothing to say to you...you've answered my questions.:)

[kwaichang]

[QUOTE=Meat Shake;747368]Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight.
Are you saying no one in SD knows how to fight ? KC

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=Meat Shake;747368]Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight.


Are you saying no one in SD knows how to fight ? KC


sounds like it.

[Judge Pen]

I would say that a high percentage of SD people know how to fight, but I'll also say that only a small percent of people actually train with the intensity to prepare for a fight. I don't actively train like I'm going to fight, but I have in the past and I'll do it in the future.

[kwaichang]

Hey Judge check your phone KC

[Kung Pao]

Its not that Im full of myself, its simply the fact that I get tired of hearing about what a great style something is (especially when talking about actually fighting) and then you find out that no one in the system knows how to actually fight....

Very, very false.


If you condensed 3 belts material into one entire system, then yes, maybe there would be some people who actually could use something they learned...


Very, very true.

[kwaichang]

MEAT SHAKEwont respond I guess he is having a meatshake for dinner KC:)

[BoulderDawg]

NSF are mostly from students who have set a goal of quitting once they attain a certain belt level.
I recall when writting down everyone's name and what they were testing for that day, if someone did have a check, he wanted their instructor's name.

What kind of places are they running in Kentucky?

In my time at the CSC I knew of no students who would even think about doing something like that.

Aslo I ask a friend who's owned a school for years and he said that, of course he's had bounced checks, but always collected. He also mentioned that in all the years in business he never once had a student quit rather than honor a NSF check.

I imagine that happens from time to time but I would be surprised if your average school got more than one of these in a 5 year period.

[Baqualin]

What kind of places are they running in Kentucky?

In my time at the CSC I knew of no students who would even think about doing something like that.

Aslo I ask a friend who's owned a school for years and he said that, of course he's had bounced checks, but always collected. He also mentioned that in all the years in business he never once had a student quit rather than honor a NSF check.

I imagine that happens from time to time but I would be surprised if your average school got more than one of these in a 5 year period.

Shaolin Do schools and we take checks and it's not that big of a problem.....don't believe everything you read

[kwaichang]

Oh Boy Now We Have 2 Threads About Sd Kc

[Meat Shake]

MEAT SHAKEwont respond I guess he is having a meatshake for dinner KC:)

Actually Meat Shake is working 65 hours a week, working out 3 nights a week, taking piano lessons from a world class pianist, and cutting 2 albums and frankly doesnt have time to bicker on an online forum.
Thanks for playing however.

[Radhnoti]

Every test I took...white, yellow, blue, green, three browns and a black was with GM Sin watching.

I know individual instructors take checks for instruction, but everytime I went to a test no checks were allowed.

I think SD's sparring (required at every test) from the earliest belts (in KY anyway) would at least help with improving fighting ability.

[BoulderDawg]

Every test I took...white, yellow, blue, green, three browns and a black was with GM Sin watching.

I think SD's sparring (required at every test) from the earliest belts (in KY anyway) would at least help with improving fighting ability.

Well I guess that says something about CSC. I've never took a lower belt test that was supervised or oversaw by a master. In fact one test was judged by a 17year old black belt that seemd more interested in staring out into space.

Also I can only remember sparring going from yellow to blue. At my other lower belt tests the Masters were either not present or we just didn't bother.

[godzillakungfu]

Well I guess that says something about CSC. I've never took a lower belt test that was supervised or oversaw by a master. In fact one test was judged by a 17year old black belt that seemd more interested in staring out into space.

Also I can only remember sparring going from yellow to blue. At my other lower belt tests the Masters were either not present or we just didn't bother.The sparring may have been missing do to a few incidents when, head instructors weren't around. :)

[Meat Shake]

"You just showed me you know nothing of system or the people in it....that statement makes me laugh."

Sure guy...
I also went to austin quite a few times for seminars...
The throwing seminar with schaeffer was a joke.
Nice guy, but the throws were absolutely terrible.
Ive watched sparring with their "top black belts" as well, and if you ever post on bullshido there is a LOOONG thread about a BJJ white belt tooling a couple of his "best fighters"...
Sure, there may be a couple of people in SD who are naturally good fighters that can throw hands, but I can guarantee that it didnt come from learning SD.
I was inches from my blackbelt in SD when I quit.
.. but oh yeah, you dont even scrape the surface until blackbelt.
Too bad in Shuai Chiao, BJJ, Muay Thai, or any other fighting based art you have to be able to actively apply almost everything you have learned to that point, and it comes no sooner than five years, more likely 7-10. Go learn another 40 kata and tell me what a bad@ss you are.

And I do apologize for the few individuals involved in the system who have shown me respect like rad and JP, as I do not aim to offend you. Im just stating my points.

[Golden Tiger]

Ive watched sparring with their "top black belts" as well, and if you ever post on bullshido there is a LOOONG thread about a BJJ white belt tooling a couple of his "best fighters"...


Talk about SD distorting the truth.... If I read that thread correctly, the matches were stopped due to Hedge bleeding all over the place. But if he had one more round, boy, he was going to whoop them good. And since you brought it up, did the "I can't get the vid transfered" video ever surface?

[MasterKiller]

"You just showed me you know nothing of system or the people in it....that statement makes me laugh."

Sure guy...
I also went to austin quite a few times for seminars...
The throwing seminar with schaeffer was a joke.
Nice guy, but the throws were absolutely terrible.
Ive watched sparring with their "top black belts" as well, and if you ever post on bullshido there is a LOOONG thread about a BJJ white belt tooling a couple of his "best fighters"...
Sure, there may be a couple of people in SD who are naturally good fighters that can throw hands, but I can guarantee that it didnt come from learning SD.
I was inches from my blackbelt in SD when I quit.
.. but oh yeah, you dont even scrape the surface until blackbelt.
Too bad in Shuai Chiao, BJJ, Muay Thai, or any other fighting based art you have to be able to actively apply almost everything you have learned to that point, and it comes no sooner than five years, more likely 7-10. Go learn another 40 kata and tell me what a bad@ss you are.

And I do apologize for the few individuals involved in the system who have shown me respect like rad and JP, as I do not aim to offend you. Im just stating my points.


You mean the white belt that beat up an old SD dude, but then got his nose busted by the other Shaolin-Do guy...complaining, of all things, that the contact was too hard?

I have a real problem with ground-fighters who say "medium contact" but then get you on the ground and go 100%. That's not a fair test of skills.

[Golden Tiger]

I have a real problem with ground-fighters who say "medium contact" but then get you on the ground and go 100%. That's not a fair test of skills.


Oh my....I actually agree with MK. What is the world coming to?

But his statement is correct.

[Baqualin]

"You just showed me you know nothing of system or the people in it....that statement makes me laugh."

Sure guy...
I also went to austin quite a few times for seminars...
The throwing seminar with schaeffer was a joke.
Nice guy, but the throws were absolutely terrible.
Ive watched sparring with their "top black belts" as well, and if you ever post on bullshido there is a LOOONG thread about a BJJ white belt tooling a couple of his "best fighters"...
Sure, there may be a couple of people in SD who are naturally good fighters that can throw hands, but I can guarantee that it didnt come from learning SD.
I was inches from my blackbelt in SD when I quit.
.. but oh yeah, you dont even scrape the surface until blackbelt.
Too bad in Shuai Chiao, BJJ, Muay Thai, or any other fighting based art you have to be able to actively apply almost everything you have learned to that point, and it comes no sooner than five years, more likely 7-10. Go learn another 40 kata and tell me what a bad@ss you are.

And I do apologize for the few individuals involved in the system who have shown me respect like rad and JP, as I do not aim to offend you. Im just stating my points.

Give me reason to respect you and I will...why JP & Rad respect you I don't know...you have only shown disrespect To GMS & SD on this thread & others with your asinine comments. Regardless of what you think were always open to working out with other people & sharing fighting techniques.....if ever in Lexington look us up...we'll play on the ground with you:eek:
otherwise go shake your meat elsewhere:)

[Judge Pen]

I've been around these forums a long time, back when MeatShake was a green belt in SD and posting as Shaolin-Do and ardently advocating SD. I've shared many a PM with MS. I thought he had a strong will to train but questioned some of his perspectives (while he was in SD). My opinion of him hasn't changed. I have no doubt the guy trains very hard but I can't agree with his perspectives. He knows this, but, like everything, I try to be as agreeable as I can in my disagreeing. Even so, MS knows that there are many things he posts that I think are unfair, untrue and inflammatory. He also knows that I try to see the points he has to make when you cut through the mounds of bs that come with anyone on an internet forum that has an obvious axe to grind about a topic.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[John Many Jars]

As I recall at the beginning of the thread Hedgehogey admitted the SD people he sparred had some skill but shortly after that the thread deteriorated and lost its objectivity.

IIRC, it also came out that he had bounced around from one MA to another for a number of years but wouldn't claim credit for learning anything from them. It's possible, I guess, but seems a little unlikely. If you're doing any kind of sparring in class you're probably, at the very least, learning how to punch and dodge or block some hits. =\

You've got to give that guy credit though. Going into somebody else's school and sparring some of their higher ranking belts. That takes a lot of guts. I think he also got injured during the first match but still sparred another round.

That aside, we don't learn ground work (at least I haven't really seen any). I can't speak for anybody else but I'm sure if I got taken down, which is more than possible, I would be toast. That will hopefully be rectified starting a year from now when I start BJJ or something similar.

[godzillakungfu]

Darn, I thought it was a thread about SD numbers.

Anyway, hedge was a beginner in BJJ. He had a total of four/five years in other TMAs as I recall. No, I refuse to re-read that train wreck thread to affirm the amount of training.

[Meat Shake]

"Give me reason to respect you and I will...why JP & Rad respect you I don't know..."

I dont care if you respect me dude. Couldnt really care less.
And yes, I find it quite amusing to get people so riled up. SD threads are like a giant floating turd... I figure if I stir crap up, some sh!t may finally go down.

I was told time and time again while in SD that "Dont show people our forms or you could be kicked out"..
lol.

"I have a real problem with ground-fighters who say "medium contact" but then get you on the ground and go 100%. That's not a fair test of skills."

Its expected. You can go 100% on the ground without breaking someone's face open... But just because you are on the ground and they are going 100%, doesnt mean you can hit them hard enough to loosen them up to get back to your feet.

[kwaichang]

Was there, the guy was a 2-3 of 10 at best he was just stubborn didnt know when he was beaten. !st SD BB tried to go to the ground and got an ankle lock put on him until then he was winning @nd BB busted him up in the face they were both 2nd BB not high ranking at all. If the guy had fought any of the others he would have been hurt "REAL BAD" kc

[Baqualin]

"Give me reason to respect you and I will...why JP & Rad respect you I don't know..."

I dont care if you respect me dude. Couldnt really care less.
And yes, I find it quite amusing to get people so riled up. SD threads are like a giant floating turd... I figure if I stir crap up, some sh!t may finally go down.

I was told time and time again while in SD that "Dont show people our forms or you could be kicked out"..
lol.

"I have a real problem with ground-fighters who say "medium contact" but then get you on the ground and go 100%. That's not a fair test of skills."

Its expected. You can go 100% on the ground without breaking someone's face open... But just because you are on the ground and they are going 100%, doesnt mean you can hit them hard enough to loosen them up to get back to your feet.



I'm sorry DUDE, your post makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
BQ

[Meat Shake]

It means that this place is bullsh!t and I get your pantyhose in a wad because I can.

And yes, SD still sucks for fighting.
Someone come kick my ass and Ill shut up.

Ill be back in texas within the year, most likely austin. If no one is near here, they can give it a shot when I get back.

Edit: I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.
Not saying I will always win, just saying that if someone is out to prove something about fighting, thats the only way.

[brucereiter]

It means that this place is bullsh!t and I get your pantyhose in a wad because I can.

And yes, SD still sucks for fighting.
Someone come kick my ass and Ill shut up.

Ill be back in texas within the year, most likely austin. If no one is near here, they can give it a shot when I get back.

Edit: I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.
Not saying I will always win, just saying that if someone is out to prove something about fighting, thats the only way.

what city do you live in now?

[Golden Tiger]

I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.


Do you really want to take the chance of getting all bruised up before your first junior prom?:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Dude , you are barking up the wrong tree.(SD TREE)HEEHEE. someone or something is bound to come down from it and take you out. So have a cup of STFU, take to asprin, and call a doctor in the morning.Idiot.

[Baqualin]

It means that this place is bullsh!t and I get your pantyhose in a wad because I can.

And yes, SD still sucks for fighting.
Someone come kick my ass and Ill shut up.

Ill be back in texas within the year, most likely austin. If no one is near here, they can give it a shot when I get back.

Edit: I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.
Not saying I will always win, just saying that if someone is out to prove something about fighting, thats the only way.

Sounds to me like your the one who has their panty hose in a wad :D
BQ

[Lamassu]

It means that this place is bullsh!t and I get your pantyhose in a wad because I can.

And yes, SD still sucks for fighting.
Someone come kick my ass and Ill shut up.

Ill be back in texas within the year, most likely austin. If no one is near here, they can give it a shot when I get back.

Edit: I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.
Not saying I will always win, just saying that if someone is out to prove something about fighting, thats the only way.

TESTOSTERONE...OVERWHELMING...MUST...GET...INTO... FIGHT...FEEL...GOOD...ABOUT...MYSELF...GRRRRRRRRRR RR!!!! AAAAGGGHHRRRRGGH!!!! SPPPPPPTTTTT!!!!! ACKKKKK!!!

[tattooedmonk]

And yes, SD still sucks for fighting.
Someone come kick my ass and Ill shut up.

I always have my door open for people wanting to cross hands... But if its someone out to prove me wrong, its going to be an NHB format match, and we will play to knockout.Is this an open invitation??



(thinks to himself .......what an idiot)

[tattooedmonk]

Sounds to me like your the one who has their panty hose in a wad :D
BQI would say it is more than panty hose.:D

[Citong Shifu]

LOL, I remember when I was 20 something, I was unbeatable as well :D .

[Kung Pao]

It means that this place is bullsh!t and I get your pantyhose in a wad because I can.

.

What I want to know is how he knows we're all wearing panty hose. I am. I am right now.

And if you play your cards right, big boy, I'll let you wear them home tonight.....;) ...

*creepy man-love whisper*: call me, Meat Shaker.

[Kung Pao]

You mean the white belt that beat up an old SD dude, but then got his nose busted by the other Shaolin-Do guy...complaining, of all things, that the contact was too hard?
.

Wow, are you guys actually telling me that all the ****talking on MA internet forums has actually sparked real-life matches?

Oh, brother......(shakes head and slits wrists)

[Baqualin]

What I want to know is how he knows we're all wearing panty hose. I am. I am right now.

And if you play your cards right, big boy, I'll let you wear them home tonight.....;) ...

*creepy man-love whisper*: call me, Meat Shaker.

If your a kung fu female I want some of that action:D

[Kung Pao]

*creepy man-love whisper*: call me, Meat Shaker.

HAHAHAHA......:D :D :D

I've never met kung-fu females.......not since, well, years ago. I actually think it was SD...lol....but they looked like kung fu femmes, if you know what I mean. Uggh....

[Baqualin]

*creepy man-love whisper*: call me, Meat Shaker.

HAHAHAHA......:D :D :D

I've never met kung-fu females.......not since, well, years ago. I actually think it was SD...lol....but they looked like kung fu femmes, if you know what I mean. Uggh....


OOPS
I just realized by your other post that your not a kung fu female.....foot in mouth...pulled the trigger on that one to quick:eek:

Anyway great post....thanks for the support & your honesty. You might come back and check out the internal program we have now...it's pretty awesome:)
BQ

[Kung Pao]

All this talk of man-love an internal kung - fu is making me uncomfortable, man.:p

:D :D :D

In truth, I'd like to se Meteor Fist. Would be cool. but I don't live near an SD school anymore. Plus, from what I remembere, tere's like 3-4 belts I'd have to earn in order to learn it or see it, unless I've mmistaken.

From one of your last posts, sounds like you're a lifer in the system. I know enough to know that that's quite an accomplishment. Congrats. Tell 'em to beef up their crane menu and I'll consider coming back to learn a thing or two. Wink....wink.....if you spot me a place to live, and a pool table, and some nachos......

[MasterKiller]

Wow, are you guys actually telling me that all the ****talking on MA internet forums has actually sparked real-life matches?

Oh, brother......(shakes head and slits wrists)


Um...are you brand new to the internet? Because this sh1t happens all the time.

[Flaca]

*creepy man-love whisper*: call me, Meat Shaker.

HAHAHAHA......:D :D :D

I've never met kung-fu females.......not since, well, years ago. I actually think it was SD...lol....but they looked like kung fu femmes, if you know what I mean. Uggh....

You mean like Michelle Yeoh? Why thank you! :cool:

[Meat Shake]

lol...

"Is this an open invitation??"

Yes my door is open. I dont turn down challenges.
I live in Minneapolis, MN.

" LOL, I remember when I was 20 something, I was unbeatable as well"

I dont think Im unbeatable, Im just not afraid of losing. Sure, it sucks, but if you lose you learn something. I have knocked out, and been knocked out, Ive hit hard and Ive been hit hard, and in the end, even if someone who trains SD wins, does that mean that SD is good? No. It means that this particular fighter is, and chances are they would win using the same techniques found in just about every system, like a roundhouse, or a punch. Is that SD? No. Its general Basics that someone most likely trained in a fighting emphasis. Beat me with crane poses. Beat me with tiger claws. Beat me with spinning flying jump kicks, and magic death touch pressure points, or maybe with some awkward sideways punch/kicks, then I will believe.
But in any case, yes, my door is open for anyone wanting to cross hands, either nicely or meaning business, just decide your purpose for wanting to do so before contacting me.

And yes, real matches come of internet bickering, as is the entire point of bullshido.

[Judge Pen]

even if someone who trains SD wins, does that mean that SD is good? No. It means that this particular fighter is, and chances are they would win using the same techniques found in just about every system, like a roundhouse, or a punch. Is that SD? No. Its general Basics that someone most likely trained in a fighting emphasis.

The thing is, SD taught me these basics and the footwork and theory behind particular forms teaches me how to apply them. So if I "win" with a side kick, I can tell you that the footwork, timing, and combonations that led to that kick landing would come from my techniques and forms taught in SD. But I agree, it wouldn't be SD's victory or SD's defeat. Just mine as its my will and dedication that makes it all come together from theory to application.

[BoulderDawg]

Just a causual observation........any MA will improve you fighting skills if you work at it and apply it. However I think the only way to become a good fighter is to train to fight. It's as simple as that.

We had this one guy at CSC who came into the program with about a year of intense boxing under his belt. This guy was quick and strong. I have no doubt he could handle the vast majority of our BBs when he first started CSC.

Anyway, as I have mentioned, sparring is a very small part of the CSC program. MY one complaint was that we sparred without any coaching or feedback. I think it would have been nice it the Masters had walk around during the sessions and gave us a few pointers. They didn't have very much to say about it either during or after the sparring sessions.

[Judge Pen]

I think it would have been nice it the Masters had walk around during the sessions and gave us a few pointers. They didn't have very much to say about it either during or after the sparring sessions.

That's unfortunate. :(

[Crushing Fist]

I like to give the students feedback during sparring, and I often stop them in the middle of a match to make suggestions on what they could try to improve.


Last night I saw one of the brown belts execute some fairly difficult footwork in the heat of sparring that I had worked with him on last week. Those are the moments that make me smile and keep me teaching. :D

[BoulderDawg]

You know I really hate to say it but quality of instruction at the Colorado CSC seems extremely substandard when compared to other SD, CDC areas.

[tattooedmonk]

You know I really hate to say it but quality of instruction at the Colorado CSC seems extremely substandard when compared to other SD, CDC areas.I do not even know what to say about this.

[tattooedmonk]

The thing is, SD taught me these basics and the footwork and theory behind particular forms teaches me how to apply them. So if I "win" with a side kick, I can tell you that the footwork, timing, and combonations that led to that kick landing would come from my techniques and forms taught in SD. But I agree, it wouldn't be SD's victory or SD's defeat. Just mine as its my will and dedication that makes it all come together from theory to application......... well said.

[Citong Shifu]

As my teacher once told me," A style does not make a master, teacher, or fighter famous, the master, teacher, or fighter makes the style famous". With this said, well I think it speaks for itself... Take care all...

[godzillakungfu]

You know I really hate to say it but quality of instruction at the Colorado CSC seems extremely substandard when compared to other SD, CDC areas.
Too many people to little time. There is more but that is for another thread or another time.

[Kung Pao]

I don't want to sound like a ****, but maybe if you bust ass around the dojo, you can help restructure the level of quality around. Do tons of cardio, lifting, forms, weapons work, stress technique, and really help beef up the basics. Maybe you can be a part of its rebuilding, if it is indeed subpar.

[Kung Pao]

I dont think Im unbeatable, Im just not afraid of losing. Sure, it sucks, but if you lose you learn something. I have knocked out, and been knocked out, Ive hit hard and Ive been hit hard, and in the end, even if someone who trains SD wins, does that mean that SD is good? No. It means that this particular fighter is, and chances are they would win using the same techniques found in just about every system, like a roundhouse, or a punch. Is that SD? No. Its general Basics that someone most likely trained in a fighting emphasis. Beat me with crane poses. Beat me with tiger claws. Beat me with spinning flying jump kicks, and magic death touch pressure points, or maybe with some awkward sideways punch/kicks, then I will believe. .

MS.....you mastered Dim Mak, flying jump kicks, the tiger style, and crane in 2 years? **** man, I've had SD's crane for a long time (don't remember anything else, except basics), and I still haven't mastered it (or them). I use many of its strikes quite often when I spar/fight (I'm no pro, though....but seeing as you're in college, I'd have to say you've probably got more testosterone and aggression than you do actual technique [I was the exact same way, a long time ago]). Take it EZ. Remember, chicks don't sleep with the prototypical spaz unless they're soused.:D Nobody wins with a pose or a tiger claw in itself. You win with roundhouses and uppercuts and hooks. You don't win with posing. You've hedged in an MA based on your greatest misconceptions, and are truly floating in darkenss and ignorance. If someone wins with SD, it doesn't mean tSD's good. So, if someone loses with sD, it doesn't mean SD is bad. Then what is your point? It seems your point is...I don't care. I rule. I quit SD, I'm jaded, so it sucks. I do Shai Chao, and they tell me it's awesome, and I cross-train in this and that, and these styles say they're awesome and effective, and they are!!! I rule, because I'm young and a hothead, and you're not me. I'll take on anyone, so your style sucks, because you won't, and you're not me.

Sounds like bragadaccio.:o


But in any case, yes, my door is open for anyone wanting to cross hands, either nicely or meaning business, just decide your purpose for wanting to do so before contacting me.

And yes, real matches come of internet bickering, as is the entire point of bullshido

Alas, and therefore I might just give up talking to people on the internet. I see a lot of posturing (electronically), and fighter's should never strike a pose, or pose as fighters, when they simply posture. These people must have really thin skin, to get miffed from something written on the internet....lol.....(but Bullshido is a funny word....I'll have to google it).

I don't know why that owuld seem so incredible to me but not to others.....:confused:

I know you think martial arts like SD or any "soft" CMA are weak and don't create good fighters. I disagree. I think Shuai Chao will make you a good fighter much faster, but I know that it won't make everyone a better fighter in the long run. You didn't learn anything in SD, so you assume nobody else did. I don't know what to say to that to get through to you, but....that's sure closeminded. An SD guy might learn 40 forms in 4-5 years, but the forms are composed of the same kicks, sweeps, blocks, throws, and such. It's not a billion techniques. It's basics reinforced and added on. Gotten to from new angles, applied with different leverage, or different locks. I've never heard the "Ultimate MA" quip from an SD practitioner, but I've seen it on signs and slogans. BJJ uses it all the time, and its practitioners use it all the time. But I've defeated too manyt BJJ guys to take any such claim seriously. To SD's credit, at least the practitioners don't use it. And many BJJ guys levy the claim they don't need extensive standup, b/c everything ends on the ground. Well, I've leveled far too many ground guys to take that seriously. And believe me, I've been leveled far too many times to think extensive standup negates anything on the ground.

MArtial artists are so very conceited and insecure.:( The style they practice is the one they think is the greatest. The one they suck at (in your case , SD), is the one they think is the worst, or, in your words, bullshido.

Some MA's take longer to make better fighters. But some people don't have the patience. Not necessarily a bad thing, but that impatience makes everything you have to say sound like BS to me.

No offense. But maybe you should just chill out. Nobody seems to be getting worked up. It's just you, man. Hope I've touched your sensibilities.

Peace, bro.

[Meat Shake]

Not worked up at all. Just killing time.

I gave up flying kicks and dim mak as soon as I realized they were bullsh*t. SD is not a fighting art. Its not good for fighting. This is what I have said time and time and time again. Yes, it is a martial art. Good for it. It is not a combat art, it is not a fighting art. Id ask you if you needed me to spell this out for you, but I already am.
Second, I already graduated college. I plan on going back for another degree, but I have already graduated once, with a 3.4.
As far as getting women... I live with my girlfriend of 3 years. Good try though.
And yes, seeing as I am 23, I do have quite a bit of testosterone... You know, that stuff that you had once upon a time that made workouts that much more effective?
Im sure ya do.
I dont think Shuai Chiao is the ****. It works great for me, and for many others. I dont think that BJJ is the best art ever. Grecko roman or sambo can be just as effective. Judo or jujitsu trained properly can be just as good as SC. MANY striking styles can be as good as Muay Thai if trained properly. The underlying theories and concepts in SD are not based on fighting. They are based on goofy stories about monkeys that grab balls.
Also... Ive met and trained and fought with a number of people I have met online. Its just about either putting up or shutting up. I dont have bad blood with anyone I have met with, its just a proving ground. Sooner or later Ill give you the name of the group I am currently training with, but as of right now Its not important. Its also a blend of BJJ and Sambo, not just BJJ. But thanks for making assumptions.
As far as sucking at SD... I was one of the few people training in the area that was working on it to use for fighting, working techniques as I learned them in live situations... which is exactly what spurred me to look elsewhere. It simply was not effective, and no one I spoke to was capable of demonstrating on me what could actually be used against someone.
Its hard to admit that something you have spent a great deal of time and money on is not what you believe it to be... But sometimes if you take a step back just far enough to see yourself, you might just see things for what they really are....

[Kung Pao]

The underlying theories and concepts in SD are not based on fighting. They are based on goofy stories about monkeys that grab balls.


HAHAHAHAHA......:D :D ......That was reallly funny.....

[Kung Pao]

Its hard to admit that something you have spent a great deal of time and money on is not what you believe it to be... But sometimes if you take a step back just far enough to see yourself, you might just see things for what they really are....

True..........

But maybe it's a case of the school.

I don't think SD is set up as a combat school. I agree......but few kung fu schools are, I think. Ah well, maybe we can get along after all. No one martial art will ever be the ultimate. It's not just SD. It's really anything. Most MMA guys I've met have lots of weaknesses, because they never move outside of their art. The ones with "purist" BJJ or Muay Thai are generallly the best.

Funny thing, though. I've won several fights with flying kicks. The only impractical technique is the one hte opponent is expecting....words to live by.

[shadowlin]

Shaolin-Do the art is absolutely a combat art, when learned from a combat-oriented teacher. That's practically all my teachers were back home. They didn't concern themselves at all, unfortunately, with the spiritual or academic aspects of the art. they also didn't delve deep enough into the art itself. Consequently, I suspect that Grandmaster The taught several hundred people Meteor Fist and yet only two or three actually learned anything, and nearly none learned what he meant about the said and the unsaid.
But the truth is that most schools, regardless of style or lineage, in the whole world are not combat-oriented. I haven't seen very many that are. I don't think any of the CSC are. I hear that the Mullins schools are very combat oriented, and I know for a fact that WVA shaolin schools focus on combat because one of their premier masters is a state police trainer - he fights all the time and gets in the cage with MMA fighters. He's quite a fighter, and a wonderful individual.
It's not necessary these days for most schools to be combat oriented. It's up to the people themselves to become combat oriented through rigorous training and mental preparation.
Having practiced SD for a small amount of time, I already can say that I feel the art itself bears no fault for any lack of combat-effectiveness in me. I'd have to bear all that to myself, and so should anyone else regardless of your style. If you don't feel the art you studied was combat-effective, maybe you simply aren't looking at it the right way. After all, they all lead to the same truths.
I'll keep doing shaolin-do because I owe a debt of gratitude to my teachers and I've been given a great many treasures to unlock.
I don't personally like that GM Sin has given out so many of these treasures, but I am thankful and will practice them regardless, because they are combat effective, and that's all I know to say about that.

[kwaichang]

If a person knocks you down or out with a punch it is combat effective. I have done that, so SD is. No system can give the kind hearted the "Killer" instinct, it takes the trials of life to do that. I believe that what MS has seen and therefore believes is those without the will to truly fight. We in SD are not all like what he has seen. Some like fords some chevys but if you own a chevy and it doesnt work that does not make the car bad or the driver just the one that wont work. KC

[Judge Pen]

No system can give the kind hearted the "Killer" instinct, it takes the trials of life to do that.

I couldn't agree more, KC.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Shaolin-Do the art is absolutely a combat art, when learned from a combat-oriented teacher. That's practically all my teachers were back home. They didn't concern themselves at all, unfortunately, with the spiritual or academic aspects of the art. they also didn't delve deep enough into the art itself. Consequently, I suspect that Grandmaster The taught several hundred people Meteor Fist and yet only two or three actually learned anything, and nearly none learned what he meant about the said and the unsaid.
But the truth is that most schools, regardless of style or lineage, in the whole world are not combat-oriented. I haven't seen very many that are. I don't think any of the CSC are. I hear that the Mullins schools are very combat oriented, and I know for a fact that WVA shaolin schools focus on combat because one of their premier masters is a state police trainer - he fights all the time and gets in the cage with MMA fighters. He's quite a fighter, and a wonderful individual.
It's not necessary these days for most schools to be combat oriented. It's up to the people themselves to become combat oriented through rigorous training and mental preparation.
Having practiced SD for a small amount of time, I already can say that I feel the art itself bears no fault for any lack of combat-effectiveness in me. I'd have to bear all that to myself, and so should anyone else regardless of your style. If you don't feel the art you studied was combat-effective, maybe you simply aren't looking at it the right way. After all, they all lead to the same truths.
I'll keep doing shaolin-do because I owe a debt of gratitude to my teachers and I've been given a great many treasures to unlock.
I don't personally like that GM Sin has given out so many of these treasures, but I am thankful and will practice them regardless, because they are combat effective, and that's all I know to say about that.

Yeah, but really.....does everyone have to jump into a steel cage to be a martial artist? I think everyone on this webboard at KFM needs a nut check, for real.

I practice martial arts as an activity and as self-defense. I enjoy it. It keeps me in shape better than everything else. It drives me to learn new things in a different cultural context. And I love to spar and learn what works. But I have no intention of jumping into a steel cage, because I'm not a professional fighter. And neither are any of you, or else I'd have heard of you by now. We all have jobs, some of us are students....we don't all have to be steel cage combat fighters in order for martial arts to be relevant.

Consequently, what we get here on KFM are a bunch of teachers who think we should all be steel cage fighters, who front like they're the ****, and encourage us to drive them out of business by being more like them.:rolleyes: I can only imagine a bunch of doughboys at keyboards, eating dim sum to ingest their cultural perspective, and then spewing it up on a web board for our benefit.

If you don't train first and foremost because what you're learning is challenging, progressive, and most importantly--enjoyable....then you're probably not learning anything. How much do you think Sifu Abel learned from his ordeal? Well, we have an online record: NOTHING!!!! LOL! Quod Erat Demonstrandum!

I constantly hear, on this web board, people from all arts regurgitate the same platitudes and sophistry I heard spewed out at various schools, including my own of course.

Just because someone presents you with the truth as they see it doesn't mean you have to eat it.

[BM2]

Yeah, but really.....does everyone have to jump into a steel cage to be a martial artist?


It depends on what is your definition of a martial artisit versus someone else's opinion. It is not having to jump into a cage that makes you a MA, but they do train realistic drills and know first hand what works.


I think everyone on this webboard at KFM needs a nut check, for real.

Maybe you don't care what they think, don't be surpised if they feel the same about you.

I practice martial arts as an activity and as self-defense. I enjoy it. It keeps me in shape better than everything else. It drives me to learn new things in a different cultural context. And I love to spar and learn what works. But I have no intention of jumping into a steel cage, because I'm not a professional fighter. And neither are any of you, or else I'd have heard of you by now. We all have jobs, some of us are students....we don't all have to be steel cage combat fighters in order for martial arts to be relevant.

I have trained with my friends who have had several cage fights. It has opened my eyes on what I thought worked and what does not.

Consequently, what we get here on KFM are a bunch of teachers who think we should all be steel cage fighters, who front like they're the ****, and encourage us to drive them out of business by being more like them.:rolleyes: I can only imagine a bunch of doughboys at keyboards, eating dim sum to ingest their cultural perspective, and then spewing it up on a web board for our benefit.



I'm not certain that you are aware that you are spewing right now.


If you don't train first and foremost because what you're learning is challenging, progressive, and most importantly--enjoyable....then you're probably not learning anything. How much do you think Sifu Abel learned from his ordeal? Well, we have an online record: NOTHING!!!! LOL! Quod Erat Demonstrandum!



What would you be able to learn if you found yourself in a similar situation.

I constantly hear, on this web board, people from all arts regurgitate the same platitudes and sophistry I heard spewed out at various schools, including my own of course.

Just because someone presents you with the truth as they see it doesn't mean you have to eat it.

But they are to eat your truth ? Reread your posts and see how insulting you are to others on here who may not have the same opinion as yourself.
I try very hard not to ever believe that I know I am correct. It keeps an open mind to other's viewpoint even if I may not agree.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But they are to eat your truth ? Reread your posts and see how insulting you are to others on here who may not have the same opinion as yourself.
I try very hard not to ever believe that I know I am correct. It keeps an open mind to other's viewpoint even if I may not agree.

The rampant disdain for "classmates" and "students" on this board is disgusting. You're blind if you don't see that in what these guys are discussing. Unless you're a world title holder, or fronting like you are one, there's very little civil discourse. Unless you're making your MA street lethal, or MMA, then it's a big "**** YOU!" from KFM's keyboard pundits.

What I see disturbing is this trend for the childish, bickering KFM heavyweights turning good-natured MA's into classmate-trashing hacks. "The MA is getting watered down. It's not combat lethal anymore...."

Well, duh. We don't fight battles daily, and those who do either have access to a time-travelling Delorian, or are getting paid by these "classmates who do the watering-down". **** that elitist ****.

Respect at the door, hands down.

And that's where ego's should be left, too.

[BM2]

I don't go to Bullshido because of that mindset. However I do believe that there are instructors that have MA schools that do not teach you how to fight and have children wearing black belts or brown belts. On the other hand, some don't even think of you as students until you have been there for a year or more:rolleyes: and it is up to you to figure out the techniques from the forms and call it being spoon fed if you want them to show you MA techniques from the forms.
That is what they are being paid to do, not to have you pay to stroke their egos.
A good coach would look at you and tell what you need to work on and make suggestions.
A good coach realizes it is about the student and their development.
If you attend a school that is based on forms and health, there is nothing wrong with that. Don't be offended if someone tells you that it isn't a place to learn how to fight in real life situations because you don't drill techniques with a partner to be able to use them in sparring.

[MasterKiller]

BM2 has spoken to the burning bush and brought the correct down from the mountain.

[kwaichang]

Are you guys saying that because you train in a particular art , in this case SD you cant fight.? Wel does that mean that if a guy trains in MMA style etc and they cant fight it is an ineffective style as well. In my opinion to group a martial art that is taught as one, as compared to some MA that are taught as point sports or tournament sport . Is ignorant. You guys arent ignorant , are you??/ I think not. Then why are you doing it in this case?? KC

[MasterKiller]

Are you guys saying that because you train in a particular art , in this case SD you cant fight.? Wel does that mean that if a guy trains in MMA style etc and they cant fight it is an ineffective style as well. In my opinion to group a martial art that is taught as one, as compared to some MA that are taught as point sports or tournament sport . Is ignorant. You guys arent ignorant , are you??/ I think not. Then why are you doing it in this case?? KC

I think you need to read his post again.

Training methodology and coaching > style.

[kwaichang]

So then if I was wrong in my post then one can say SD is a fighting art if taught as such KC

This is the quote I speak of "The underlying theories and concepts in SD are not based on fighting. They are based on goofy stories about monkeys that grab balls"
That is what I disagree with.

[MasterKiller]

So then if I was wrong in my post then one can say SD is a fighting art if taught as such KC
Probably so, but I think you'd have to remove an awful lot of material. Part of training methodology is weeding out the stuff that fighters don't need, imo.


This is the quote I speak of "The underlying theories and concepts in SD are not based on fighting. They are based on goofy stories about monkeys that grab balls"
That is what I disagree with.

I missed that part. Did BM2 say that? :confused:

[kwaichang]

My mistake Meat Shake said it but what do you think about it. KC

[MasterKiller]

My mistake Meat Shake said it but what do you think about it. KC

I think your seniors do you a disservice by focusing too much on forms. And not just on forms, per se, but the accumulation of new forms. I've never seen as advertisement for a throwing seminar, or a punching and countering seminar, etc... I'm sure Sin tells you the applications while showing you a form, but that's not really the same thing.

Now, this is in no way an SD-specific issue. But you guys have a billion forms and new ones keep coming out all the time.

What I disliked about my traditional training was that we practiced one way all the time, until it came time for competitions. Then, we would switch to San Shou for a couple of weeks until after the tournament, and then we would go back to forms, etc...

Which made me wonder: If we were practicing San Shou to learn to fight, why not just do San Shou all the time?

Anyway, the kicker for me was when, during a kids' class, I was correcting an 8 year-old on one of his forms and he asked me "what are we learning here, anyway?"

I figured if it wasn't obvious, something was wrong.

My views on forms and traditional training have changed a lot over the last few years. I see the value of sport training because I've seen how quickly my own skills have increased since I started it. I also see how far my students have progressed in the last year and know they are far better fighters than I was after 12 months of training the 'old' way.

And really, except for ground fighting, all the stuff I teach now is the same material I learned in Long Fist. The switch to a modern teaching method is what made the difference.

[kwaichang]

I agree on most of what you said but the people I have trained with were and are more application oriented. I always taught application then made the little guy/girl use it against someone then switch to get the different dynamics of big to small to big etc. I also have to defend forms i can and do use what I practice in forms and I mean verbatum. I really enjoy them and do them with an open mind I feel the perspective of the spirit of the style expressed is what makes you a versatile fighter. I am not talking sport here I am talking street. KC

[bakxierboxer]

.... I also have to defend forms i can and do use what I practice in forms and I mean verbatum. I really enjoy them and do them with an open mind I feel the perspective of the spirit of the style expressed is what makes you a versatile fighter. I am not talking sport here I am talking street. KC

????????
For some reason, I never expected to hear that from an "SDer".
Maybe I've got to look around for a "more representative" video? (is there one?)

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think your seniors do you a disservice by focusing too much on forms. And not just on forms, per se, but the accumulation of new forms. I've never seen as advertisement for a throwing seminar, or a punching and countering seminar, etc...
And really, except for ground fighting, all the stuff I teach now is the same material I learned in Long Fist. The switch to a modern teaching method is what made the difference.

It depends on the teacher. The Master of the school I attend does throwing, ground, sweeping, and specific forms applications seminars quite often. They're school specific, though. Meaning, a Marietta class--although open to all Atlanta schools--generally draws almost exclusively Marietta students, and these are like every two or three months; plus, if you take one sweeping class this year, it's discounted or free from then on--which is sweet. In regular class we do weapons drills and work on sparring strategies, sweeps, etc., but it's kind of up to us to keep them up to speed, which is cool--b/c then there's forms. I'd point you to a schedule to show you how classes go; but for the cliff's notes: white-brown belt is basically all forms and weapons. At black, the curriculum is divided between heavy conditioning, sparring (internal / external methods), striking drills, and forms. You might have four weeks of a black tiger form, followed by four weeks of weight vest, followed by four weeks of endurance punching/kicking....but all the while part of each conditioning class is dedicated to that black tiger form, so it turns into a couple months, rather than just four weeks. Once you get most of your material, you're conditioned pretty well, have a grasp of the basics, and can apply the concepts (if you are so inclined, and aren't just there for fitness).

In SD, everything's syncretic. They won't hold your hand; they expect you to apply the concepts and practice them.

It's hard to put a "forms-oriented" label on a style stretched so far between the US. Granted, it'll always be forms-driven, because that's our style. But, as I'm sure SDiscool could corroborate, Marietta's two chief instructors are definitely applications driven. It's about conditioning, and punching and kicking hard, and getting grips on applications--either by imitation or adaptation.

But again, there's the internal and the external. Atlanta seems like it's centrally focused on internal arts. Maybe I'm wrong, that just seems like its focus, perhaps because the teachers are more interested in those arts.

[brucereiter]

It's hard to put a "forms-oriented" label on a style stretched so far between the US. Granted, it'll always be forms-driven, because that's our style.
i wish it was not soooo forms driven.




But, as I'm sure SDiscool could corroborate,


Marietta's two chief instructors are definitely applications driven. It's about conditioning, and punching and kicking hard, and getting grips on applications--either by imitation or adaptation.

i can corroborate. the owner is from my first hand knowledge very knowledgeable about the concepts and application of his martial practice and very willing to share this with interested students.

the chief instructor and i have had good conversation about real time application of martial concepts. he is a "good fella".



But again, there's the internal and the external. Atlanta seems like it's centrally focused on internal arts. Maybe I'm wrong, that just seems like its focus, perhaps because the teachers are more interested in those arts.

that was not always the case in the atlanta schools but over time internal martial arts have been a big focus.
internal (tai chi chuan, pakua and hsing i) fit me better than other martial arts i have had exposer to.

[Golden Tiger]

I think your seniors do you a disservice by focusing too much on forms. And not just on forms, per se, but the accumulation of new forms. I've never seen as advertisement for a throwing seminar, or a punching and countering seminar, etc...

Some perhaps, but not all. In Lexington, the elder senior does teach a lot of forms but that is balanced with a lot of hard conditioning and applications. When he is away, one of the seniors focuses on fighting, be it with our animal styles, knives, the lights out, you name it, he thinks of it. The other senior focuses on hard core conditioning, fighting strategies, angles, and out and out brawling. We have had classes that went for weeks focusing on sweeps, throws etc. So yes, while SD may be form based, thats not all that is practiced.


What I disliked about my traditional training was that we practiced one way all the time, until it came time for competitions. Then, we would switch to San Shou for a couple of weeks until after the tournament, and then we would go back to forms, etc...

Finally, and I hope for the first and last time, we agree on something!:D

[BM2]

Are you guys saying that because you train in a particular art , in this case SD you cant fight.? Wel does that mean that if a guy trains in MMA style etc and they cant fight it is an ineffective style as well. In my opinion to group a martial art that is taught as one, as compared to some MA that are taught as point sports or tournament sport . Is ignorant. You guys arent ignorant , are you??/ I think not. Then why are you doing it in this case?? KC



I don't think anyone doubts that the level of instruction varies depending on what instructor you have. If your instructor teaches you to bite some one's groin while grappling, they haven't a clue of what to do and shouldn't guess. Unfortunately I am not making that example up nor the ones in my other post.
The examples that JP has given of his instructor, well JP in is fortunate to have him.
I am not really for sure what you are asking further on in your post, but I was responding to SWookie so reread it.
My instructor in SD had to be one of the best instructors and one of my former classmates is differently one of the best in the entire system.
With that in mind, not everyone has had the same instruction and what is stressed in their schools. Did you read where some can get you to black belt in a year and a half? It took me twice that long and that was without the 12 new forms. My instructor wouldn't let us test until we had three years in as he thought that was the minimal required to be where you should be for black belt.
With all of that said, I was not at the same level in the same amount of time as the guys in BJJ or MT for several reasons but maily due to time spent learning and doing forms.

[kwaichang]

Mas Oyama spent a year in the mountains perfecting his one punch finishing blow. Some would say that is not realistic but tell that to the Bull whose horn he cleaved off. If it is quick you want use a knife or gun. I think the perspective is skewed. You may train for one month or two and defeat me . but as I continue to train the gap will lessen until I catch and surpass you. Then when your body is torn up and non functional due to overtraining and anti - body techniques the body will break down. Mine will still be going strong then when I am healthy and happy at 80 I will look you up and kick your butt haha. No really. KC

[BM2]

He was the Man! I read about one of his students talking about their training, thin gis in the winter without heat and that was the easy part.
That he killed, was it 52 bulls? Just one is something knowing what he would do to a human's skull, or any body part.

[mkriii]

As for who has the biggest school in this country there are several that come to mind. One of the biggest and at one time the most successful schools is owned by Dennis Brown in Washington D.C.. He made in one year over $400,000. Pretty good for teaching Kung Fu. Her uses a company called EFC to collect his monthly dues from his students. Now when you say SD is the biggest school your referring to all the schools combined. I'd like to know what the largest school is independently? Is the Lexington SD school the largest or is there one in another city that is bigger? Another big school is Grandmaster Tsai's school in Chicago, also very successful.

[tattooedmonk]

Probably so, but I think you'd have to remove an awful lot of material. Part of training methodology is weeding out the stuff that fighters don't need, imo.

Not everyone wants to be fighter. There is more to the arts than just fighting. You are right, it is a forms driven system.

[shadowlin]

????????
For some reason, I never expected to hear that from an "SDer".
Maybe I've got to look around for a "more representative" video? (is there one?)

most of the people I've found to be knowledgable do not let their videos get public.

However, IF I were to recommend a video of a true Master who is on bad mothertrucker, I'd say get Master Nance's videos.

you can tell he's a Master the moment you meet him.

I would recommend Master Mingione, but the only video I know of that he's done is gymnastics, not fighting. But he's a beast, make no mistake.

If you just want to see awesome skill in forms, though, look for Master Bullock or Shi Fu Joe Harmin.

[Shaolin Wookie]

most of the people I've found to be knowledgable do not let their videos get public.

However, IF I were to recommend a video of a true Master who is on bad mothertrucker, I'd say get Master Nance's videos.

you can tell he's a Master the moment you meet him.

I would recommend Master Mingione, but the only video I know of that he's done is gymnastics, not fighting. But he's a beast, make no mistake.

If you just want to see awesome skill in forms, though, look for Master Bullock or Shi Fu Joe Harmin.

It'll be sweet when that vid Master Nance is making comes out. My teacher thinks the world of his skills.

[brucereiter]

It'll be sweet when that vid Master Nance is making comes out. My teacher thinks the world of his skills.

trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vDTeyUtLOs