The Secret of Power

[rogue]

The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Green


1. Never Outshine the Master
2. Never put too Much Trust in Friends, Learn how to use Enemies
3. Conceal your Intentions
4. Always Say Less than Necessary
5. So Much Depends on Reputation – Guard it with your Life
6. Court Attention at all Cost
7. Get others to do the Work for you, but Always Take the Credit
8. Make other People come to you – use Bait if Necessary
9. Win through your Actions, Never through Argument
10. Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky
11. Learn to Keep People Dependent on You
12. Use Selective Honesty and Generosity to Disarm your Victim
13. When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest, Never to their Mercy or Gratitude
14. Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy
15. Crush your Enemy Totally
16. Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor
17. Keep Others in Suspended Terror: Cultivate an Air of Unpredictability
18. Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous
19. Know Who You’re Dealing with – Do Not Offend the Wrong Person
20. Do Not Commit to Anyone
21. Play a Sucker to Catch a Sucker – Seem Dumber than your Mark
22. Use the Surrender Tactic: Transform Weakness into Power
23. Concentrate Your Forces
24. Play the Perfect Courtier
25. Re-Create Yourself
26. Keep Your Hands Clean
27. Play on People’s Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following
28. Enter Action with Boldness
29. Plan All the Way to the End
30. Make your Accomplishments Seem Effortless
31. Control the Options: Get Others to Play with the Cards you Deal
32. Play to People’s Fantasies
33. Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew
34. Be Royal in your Own Fashion: Act like a King to be treated like one
35. Master the Art of Timing
36. Disdain Things you cannot have: Ignoring them is the best Revenge
37. Create Compelling Spectacles
38. Think as you like but Behave like others
39. Stir up Waters to Catch Fish
40. Despise the Free Lunch
41. Avoid Stepping into a Great Man’s Shoes
42. Strike the Shepherd and the Sheep will Scatter
43. Work on the Hearts and Minds of Others
44. Disarm and Infuriate with the Mirror Effect
45. Preach the Need for Change, but Never Reform too much at Once
46. Never appear too Perfect
47. Do not go Past the Mark you Aimed for; In Victory, Learn when to Stop
48. Assume Formlessness

[Water-quan]

Cripes, sounds like advice for the anti-christ, lol...

[BruceSteveRoy]

actually i have been using it as a checklist of things to do.

[Water-quan]

actually i have been using it as a checklist of things to do.

Have you achieved more power?? And, have Pink Floyd written a gatefold concept album about you yet?

[BruceSteveRoy]

well i just started using it this afternoon. and so far no. the universe is not yet bending to my will. and i have been waiting on the pink floyd things since i was 13. i think i might have to settle for something like a winger power ballad.*cringes*

[Water-quan]

i think i might have to settle for something like a winger power ballad.*cringes*

Aya! At least hold out of Survivor!

[IronFist]

I read another book in that series. Did I say "read?" I meant "skimmed through a few chapters cuz it was long and the font is small." It had some good concepts and stories to illustrate, even tho some of the stores were a bit dated.

[SanHeChuan]

Sounds like the secret to being an aswhole! :mad:
A powerful technique indeed. :D

[SevenStar]

that's an interesting list. I use most of those on both of my jobs. in 50 cent's book "from pieces to weight" he summed it up in a sentence - reputation is the cornerstone to power. your list breaks down how to establish a rep.

[SevenStar]

Cripes, sounds like advice for the anti-christ, lol...

why? there is nothing inherently bad about the list. What is bad is what you do with the power you gain. A lot of these are just good business practice. Heck, business isn't always ethical.

On my day job, I am a web developer. I constantly debate with the marketing department about what should or shouldn't be on the website or how something should work. Sometimes I know the answer to something from the get go and know that marketing is making a mistake, but I don't play all of my cards, I keep quiet. In the short term, they "won". But, once we load what they wanted, and it screws up, then they need a fix. That is when I come in. I tell them what went wrong, and make it known that I can fix the issue. I just accomplished several things.

1. I discredited marketing
2. I made it known that I am more knowledgable in the given area
3. established myself as a person familiar with said area and any other area it may impact.

I just improved my reputation with them, thus increasing my power.


When I go to restaurants, I trip my friends out, because I leave large tips. I've had waitresses grinning ear to ear because I tipped them 10.00 on a 9.00 tab. My friends think I am crazy. But they are looking at the short term. The waitress remembers me. She tells her co-workers about me. they point me out when I walk in and make it a point to know my name and all of my preferences. It gets to the point that when I walk in, no matter who is working, they are like "Seven, what's up! I've got a table over here for you - do you want your usual drink and appetizer?" My friends are like WTF? because I get treated like a king. I accomplished some things here:

1. increased rep among my friends because of the treatment I get
2. increased rep with the workers, as they know that if they give me top notch service, they get a nice tip.

in both situations, I have increased my reputation and thus my power.


In the club, I see a patron who needs to get put out. He tries to agress and I choke him out. The next week, he comes in and apologizes, so I am cool with him.

I have done several things here:

1. I gain a rep among the onlookers as someone not to mess with, as they saw me choke someone out.

2. the guy who got choked knows not to get wrong and spreads the word to his friends, which not only makes them respect my position, but it makes the job easier, because they are less likely to act up again.

3. by being cool and accepting the apology, even socializing with the guy, he now respects me more as a person, as I'm not always just an arsehole bouncer. I COULD put him out everytime I see him because I recognize him as a problem, but I do not. I made a friend or associate out of an enemy.

I increase my rep and thus my level of power. It is the most noticible at the club. I have people I have never seen before tell me stories that have heard about me fighting people... it almost gets to the point where it's legendary. One woman told another bouncer that she saw me beat four guys at once... I don't even know what she's talking about. But now that she is telling people this, there are several people talking about it. that in itself increases my rep and thus my power. Word of mouth is a powerful thing.

[rogue]

The book itself is interesting in that it's not judgmental about the list. Think of it this way, most of the items on the list can be used by a great guy or a real *******. Another thing to think about is everyone either uses items off of the list or dealing with someone who is using the list on them. Think traditional martial arts for example.

7, I don't think the list is how to establish a rep, as a rep on it's own is just that and easy to lose.
Reading your last post I can tell that you get it.

[David Jamieson]

Quite a lot of that list is in Sun Tzu's book.

It's a modern redaction in many respects. Which is probably needed because people don't readily understand some of the more cryptic stuff in sun tzu's work.

anyway. It can be corrupted. Like anything. And as stated it is probably important to not look at the list or the people you use the concepts on with emotionalism.

Coolness is a huge factor in how you exercise power or i can all be dashed on the rocks with a single "woo hoo" :p

[SPJ]

nothing will overcome the power of love.

be sincere in your intent and doing.

be honest about it.

treat others like you would like to be treated.

--

our days will be a lot happier for us and others.

--

:D

[Nick Forrer]

You guys should read Machiavellis the prince

It really is *the* case study in the perennial laws of power politics (i.e. how to get power and how to maintain it.)

Again morality isnt a concern...essentially what he says is whether you are good or bad if you dont follow what he prescribes you wont get anywhere....In fact you can very easily look at contemporary politics and see clear instances of what he describes.

One quick example...if you have to make a policy decision which you know will be unpopular...delgate executing that policy to someone who you think is expendable...get them to carry it out (they will be pleased you trust them with the authority and you should sell it to them in those terms) and then let them take the inevitable flack for doing it....then get rid of them totally....In doing so you will have a) accomplished your original goal and b) increased your rep by getting rid of someone who was universally unpopular.

[KC Elbows]

Most Caesars died because of the purple cloak, not in spite of it.

In imperial China, virtually every dynasty ended with people trying to use their social power/influence to avoid taxation, to avoid loss of prestige, etc, and the interrums between dynasties killed the elite and the lowly alike due to starvation from the state's bankruptcy, or wars between rivals who were very likely to die in the end as well.

In short, follow all of these rules and you'll still die in soiled trousers.

Additionally, power is a really poor choice of terms for it, it's influence. This is why several of the rules discuss not trusting people overly much: it's other people's power that is mostly being discussed, how to get it, how unreliable it is, et al. It does not directly become anyone's power in a reliable sense except the people who directly hold that power.

Take a Mao, for example: he had absolute control, and found he could only keep it by making it the higher priority over governing well, thus reducing the power of the country he controlled, and thus lessening his own potential power. Only reform free of Mao increased the overall influence of China to the power we see today. In fact, a strong case could be made that #15 is actually counter to amassing influence, since such practices more commonly lead to overextension than to the destruction of the Carthaginians. One simply cannot hold great influence and afford to easily accept the concept of enemies. The US has been proof of that: two parties who despise each other but consistently choose to fall short of doing away with the systems that prevent them from destroying their rivals.

Had Mao managed to destroy the reformers in his own system, China would be economically irrelevant today. Deng Xiaoping, who had far more reason to consider the hardliners mortal enemies than Mao had to fear the reformers, recognized that far greater power was available by a more moderate, inclusive stance.

In short, influence is fine, but it is not a costless commodity. There really are few numbers in that list that recognize this fact: even Stalin could not act with absolute impunity, there were others he always had to worry about, no matter how many he killed, and the more he secured power, the more he guaranteed he would have to endlessly secure it at the cost of other more productive action.

Every friend is a potential liability that, if you choose to ignore it, creates an enemy, destroys your reputation, etc. Every person who you discount is a potential unknown that can later come back to haunt you.

The list reads like a list of ways people who don't really have any place having influence can get it and then get beheaded by a mob because qualifications never entered their minds. It lacks concepts of moderation required in real human interaction. To use Sevenstar's example, he is discussing a circumstance where he had both a use for social pressure and an expertise and knowledge of the organization that made that social pressure relevant to getting something useful done in the long run. The list itself seems to have no use for such distinctions.

To use another example, say a politician strong on influence but shy on ability used this sort of conduct to surround himself with yes men, ran for president, and Rogue voted for him...

[neilhytholt]

To use another example, say a politician strong on influence but shy on ability used this sort of conduct to surround himself with yes men, ran for president, and Rogue voted for him...

But that worked out so well. The yes men and friends did such a great job in 9/11, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Hurricane Katrina, getting the U.S. out of debt, making it a stronger country.

They even were honest and didn't line their own pockets in greed, but rather put their money back into the country, fixed the education system, worked tirelessly on environmental reforms, and eliminating poverty.

In short, this country is in super great shape due to Bush, that it's literally unbelievable! We all owe him such a debt of gratitude ... what a great guy.

;)

[rogue]

So Mao didn't gain power and keep it for a good long time?

[neilhytholt]

What perhaps is more interesting about Bush and Mao, is how they can use the fear and ignorance of common people to establish such totalitarian regimes.

It really doesn't give one much hope for humanity as a species, does it?

[David Jamieson]

Mao still has power over people and he's been dead for a while. He is not Comparable to Bush in the least.
Bush fell into power, Mao built his power and kept it til death.

there's a huge difference between these two.

nevertheless, there are many examples of power being maintained right up until death. KC, you are citing the small percentage of those who have power as opposed to the nature of it.

personal power is differnet from vast power over nations and ideological contructs that we live under. Yes, once in a while, the responsibility of power is neglected and even corrupted to a point where it bites the holder in the ass.

But anyway, this list is a pale shadow of Sun Tzu's writings on the nature of power which predated Machiavellis ideas by quite some time I would add. Although, I would say that the Prince is a fairly accurate model of how it's viewed in western culture.

People would hope that love is true power, but it isn't, love doesn't seek power and so it is not powerful but it is percieved as such by people who find it and sway with it's influence.

I wouldn't interpret any of this emotional and instead view it more as a matter of fact sort of thing. When percieved as such it makes more sense than seeing it through the eyes of love/hate or indifference. remove the emotion and you see the true mechanism of both personal power and vast power. If you try not to be bound by lust for power and instead act in the manner of what is needed to sustain and maintain, then you will follow the rules of theart of war, the prince, this list or any of the other axioms that fall under this path.

It really is a matter of being responsible enough to handle it and to do it with the correct intention which is to do it selflessly. When you become greedy, you lose power. When you become selfish you lose power. Those who do that collapse under the weight of their corruption, but in their rise or having it thrust upon them, there is only drunkeness and not much is accomplished. Someone who moves to it with a steady step, resolve and correct intention will simply do what needs to be done and in doing so is perceived as deserving of power and is therefor given it.

the psychology of how others will percieve it and bestow it has been known for a long time. This is nothing new except for who makes the actions to do it next.

also, i don't completely agree with the entire list and find it lacking in some respects because it ties in with manipulatrion that is associated with need and emotionalism as opposed to the actual nature of power. There are a few items on that list that are manipulative and decpetive without the need to be so. so, the writer of the list exhibits not a true understanding and instead opts for only what he has observed and ties that to what he has gleened from greater minds than his own. :p

[neilhytholt]

Mao still has power over people and he's been dead for a while. He is not Comparable to Bush in the least.
Bush fell into power, Mao built his power and kept it til death.

Well, Bush doesn't really have any power. It's his friends who put him into the Presidency and gave him all of this. Bush is just a figurehead, but when I say Bush I mean Bush and his friends.

It's pretty obvious what Bush and his friends mean to accomplish. It's enriching themselves while bankrupting the U.S., and the integration of the Americas. Bush has already bought a large spread down in South America for his family.

[Yum Cha]

Power, influence, control.

The measure of power is not that you have it, but what you do with it.

Al Capone was powerful, Bobby Kenedy was likewise powerful, as were MLK and Gandi.

Striving to raise your individual collateral is a fair effort, but not the be all and end all.

Going back to 7's examples. He used his physical power to reduce the need to exercise physical power. He used generosity to establish credentials amongs his friends and the people who look after him as a 'nice guy'.

As for 'facing" the marketing dpt, well, that's just plain fun...you should have choked one of them out just for general purpose.

[SevenStar]

no doubt. A few of the marketing guys are talking about coming to our school to train. They don't realize what they are doing...:cool:

[neilhytholt]

The thing is, like one of my grandfathers, he worked for years and years and amassed several million dollars. He was very popular with a lot of people, yet managed to completely alienate most of his kids because he was never around.

He was always striving for more, more, more, and to get away from the stress of working.

Well, once he got his money, and retired, everybody was after it. His kids wanted their cut of it, and resented the fact he was never around. His former 'friends' wanted money and wanted him to give them deals for helping him make money.

The IRS wanted money, and continually audited him, even though he paid his taxes, he always had to show a lot of paperwork and it caused him a huge amount of stress.

He was always extremely stressed out, and died of a stroke in his early 60s with millions in the bank.

Contrast that to my other grandfather, who also worked. Not as hard, not as much, he loved to go fishing and gambling.

His wife didn't like him, divorced him, but his kids loved him because he was always around for them. He retired, spent all his extra time and money visiting with his kids and his grandkids and gambling and fishing and died in his sleep at 80 with little money left.

Now you ask me ... who was more successful? The millionaire grandfather who was always stressed out? Or the relatively poorer grandfather who had pretty much no stress at all.

Does money and fame and wealth and influence really make you happy?

???

[David Jamieson]

money, fame, wealth and influence are not the same as power.

those things are often a by-product of real power. to strive after those things is powerlessness in action, seeking it, but having to work so hard that you never get it.

see how it's a perception thing? some people think being rich is being powerful, it ain't. being famous is not being powerful either. think back on some real famous people from the 50s, remeber any? what did they do that changed the world, your life? how about people who influence, does it hold sway over just their group? their company/business? their family?

now think about people who changed the world. Mao is one of those, Eisenhower and MacArthur are a couple of more, Ronald Reagan is another, Hitler, Napoleon, Queen Victoria, Lester B. Pearson, Julius Caesar, Tamujin, Alexander, Ptolemy and a few others of course. these are examples of real power, at least to me. They are people who changed the world and still have an effect on things in peoples everyday lives. none of them invented anything, made a better light bulb, or a better mouse trap. All of these people weilded incredible power though and to this day the ripples of their being effect others and how we think and govern ourselves.

so, these 48 "laws" are lacking in many respects, but tre are many points within them that are absolutely true methods of attaining and maintaining power. Except that real power doesn't follow a little list of laws, it simply IS what it is. Almost a divine thing in many respects. A roll of the dice, a decision made at the right time in the right place and a continuance of correct intention and steel resolve.

[neilhytholt]

money, fame, wealth and influence are not the same as power.

how about people who influence, does it hold sway over just their group? their company/business? their family?

now think about people who changed the world.

In English the word influence is usually meant to change something, change the world, change people's views, control them, etc.

So I ask again, was Hitler happy? Was Mao happy? Does influence bring happiness?

What is the true measure of success, to mold the environment?

Honestly I have no idea. I have a few old friends who do nothing but do menial jobs and come home and smoke pot and play video games, and they seem to be the happiest people I've ever met.

They never seem to get angry, they don't have a lot of family stress, or anything. Compared to a lot of my friends who have families, husbands/wives and constant problems, get divorced, etc.

They seem to be total losers -- yet at the same time, they seem content.

So what is success?

[Master Rob]

robert green can kiss my ass...

[David Jamieson]

happy? I'm not sure what happy has todo with it.

we are talking about the nature of power and not the nature of contentment.

one can be content in any number of ways, but does being happy effect change in the world?

being happy is often a selfish motivation. :p not that it has to be, but it can be.

being powerful is an entirely differnet ball of wax. apples and oranges.

successful? what is your goal? did you achieve it? if so then you are successful, if not, then you have failed. You will fail more often than you succeed. But this has nothing to do with power. it may be tied to it in some way, but often it is not about the selfish things such as contentment and happiness so much as it is about being an agent of change.

[David Jamieson]

robert green can kiss my ass...


lol.

a) if you are a regular poster, why waste an email account to post that?

b) if that's your first ever post, then what's your beef with robert green? :p

[neilhytholt]

happy? I'm not sure what happy has todo with it.

we are talking about the nature of power and not the nature of contentment.

one can be content in any number of ways, but does being happy effect change in the world?

being happy is often a selfish motivation. :p not that it has to be, but it can be.

being powerful is an entirely differnet ball of wax. apples and oranges.

successful? what is your goal? did you achieve it? if so then you are successful, if not, then you have failed. You will fail more often than you succeed. But this has nothing to do with power. it may be tied to it in some way, but often it is not about the selfish things such as contentment and happiness so much as it is about being an agent of change.

But why does anything need to change? What's the point of it? Isn't thinking that something needs to change extremely egotistical? Basically it means that you think you know better what things should be, and you want to change them to your liking, right?

And judging the people you've said, these people were primarily figureheads of social movements. Without the underlying impetus or stress (poverty, famine, class inequality, social problems, etc.), they never would have been the figureheads of these movements.

A cavity in your mouth is caused by stress, acid, too much sugars, etc., bacteria eating away at your tooth. So is the cavity successful? Is it an agent of change? Or is it the natural outgrowth of a problem with your mouth?

[rogue]

Well, Bush doesn't really have any power. It's his friends who put him into the Presidency and gave him all of this. Bush is just a figurehead, but when I say Bush I mean Bush and his friends.

It's pretty obvious what Bush and his friends mean to accomplish. It's enriching themselves while bankrupting the U.S., and the integration of the Americas. Bush has already bought a large spread down in South America for his family.

Do you have a problem with staying on a topic. If you want to talk about your hatred for the President go start your own thread. Please.

[Black Jack II]

Well, Bush doesn't really have any power. It's his friends who put him into the Presidency and gave him all of this. Bush is just a figurehead, but when I say Bush I mean Bush and his friends.

It's pretty obvious what Bush and his friends mean to accomplish. It's enriching themselves while bankrupting the U.S., and the integration of the Americas. Bush has already bought a large spread down in South America for his family.

I so hate this type of undernourished thinking. It's soooo old to see this nonsense from people trying to sound aristocratic. Rogue is right, stay on the **** topic.:rolleyes:

[Crushing Fist]

But why does anything need to change? What's the point of it?


In this world our only power is the building of sandcastles next to the sea.






Everything changes. The problem is once you have changed something into the shape you desire, that shape cannot last. Like everything, it will continue to change.

[FuXnDajenariht]

nothing will overcome the power of love.

be sincere in your intent and doing.

be honest about it.

treat others like you would like to be treated.

--

our days will be a lot happier for us and others.

--

:D

SPJ has the correct as they say.

[Water-quan]

But why does anything need to change? What's the point of it? Isn't thinking that something needs to change extremely egotistical? Basically it means that you think you know better what things should be, and you want to change them to your liking, right?



That is a powerfully wise insight, in my humble view.

[Water-quan]

In this world our only power is the building of sandcastles next to the sea.






Everything changes. The problem is once you have changed something into the shape you desire, that shape cannot last. Like everything, it will continue to change.

Interesting insights.

[KC Elbows]

So Mao didn't gain power and keep it for a good long time?

Mao's power was entirely tied into keeping his power, which prevented him from having effective power, which is the only useful power. Additionally, men tied into personality cults lose the flexibility to actually be anything other than the myth they must project or face certain loss of power: perhaps there was a real Mao that joined the commies, but the Mao on all those people's walls is a myth that that Mao had to make of himself and never ever be seen as breaking from.

This wouldn't be such a hard task from people you have no feelings for, but a man as focused on power as Mao, especially one versed in Chinese history, would be well aware that even family must observe the myth. Soon, one would likely have to decide which parts of the family support the myth and which parts are merely fooled into it. From there, history seems to suggest that there is absolutely no good result when a close family member, especially a favored, well loved one, for any grounds, moral included, chooses to cease observing and supporting the myth. It also appears to be fairly common under similar circumstances.

In short, if your existence must be caged up, how is that anything but impotence?



DL,

In a way, I'd say that there are some links between influence on the two levels, especially considering that the first links on the larger chain of influence are family and close confidants, but yeah, I wouldn't strain the ties too much. One is much more prone to relationships of opportunity. I'd say it applies to very small organizations still, though, so a lot of people would be tied into that that would be needing a list.

And yes, Sun Tzu was advocating a lot of this, but he does not place a judgement value on the individual, he suggests knowledge of the foe, not a quick measuring of their worth to you specifically as the worth to the whole.

[rogue]

But why does anything need to change? What's the point of it? Isn't thinking that something needs to change extremely egotistical? Basically it means that you think you know better what things should be, and you want to change them to your liking, right?

A very good question followed by a very good answer.


Everything changes. The problem is once you have changed something into the shape you desire, that shape cannot last. Like everything, it will continue to change

Even dead things change.

Isn't thinking that something needs to change extremely egotistical?

I don't know about extremely egotistical but yes, a person would be saying that they know a better way than what the status quo is. I do it with my kids, I do it at work. Over my kids I exert power but for their benefit. Same thing at work, except at work I sometimes have people with opposing view points that I have to "battle" with. At home I'm king, at work I need allies and influence.


KC Elbows: Power is power. Mao stayed in power which was useful to him which means he had effective power.

[David Jamieson]

without change, there is no life, without leaders there is no society only disparate groups and anarchy.

some things are self evident and some things that are self evident still escape perception of some.

why should things change? It's not a matter of why or why not, it's a matter of seeing that they do, it is the way it is. You are born, you live, you grow, you get old, your body screws up, you die. the cycle of change is with you every day. the sun rises, crosses over until it is night, seasons come and go, life marches on and death keeps pace.

and yes, it is because someone says "there has to be a better way" that incites further change. The world you live in now will not be the world that you live in 20 years from now or even tomorrow.

if you get in a car accident, your life will change, will it's value diminish? not necessarily, but it will definitely be forever changed.

Power can be as simple as understanding just a few of those things.

arguing against change is to argue for retardation of progress and human spirit.
To hide in you shell is to live an unexamined life and is to be dishonest with yourself which is probably the worst thing you could do to yourself.

all in all, this thread is interesting. :p

[SevenStar]

But why does anything need to change? What's the point of it? Isn't thinking that something needs to change extremely egotistical? Basically it means that you think you know better what things should be, and you want to change them to your liking, right?


if you want things to stay the same, things must change. that's just how it works. However, attempting to create a change on your own does not imply that one is egotistical. Research of this very forum tells me that most of the posters do not like the color scheme. By changing the color scheme, would that be ego on my part? No. Or do you think that it's the collective ego of all of the posters who think they know what the color scheme should be?

[neilhytholt]

if you want things to stay the same, things must change. that's just how it works. However, attempting to create a change on your own does not imply that one is egotistical. Research of this very forum tells me that most of the posters do not like the color scheme. By changing the color scheme, would that be ego on my part? No. Or do you think that it's the collective ego of all of the posters who think they know what the color scheme should be?

Guess the point I was trying to make is, if you assume Hitler or Mao changed things, did they really change them for the better?

Personally I don't really think so. But that's just a personal opinion.

It just seems like when somebody like this starts thinking they know better what things should be, screw everybody else, that they cause a ton of problems.

Like take the forum colors. If you think you know better what the colors should be, and go ahead and exert your influence and change them, are you really making it better? How do you know what people are going to want?

But if you take a less egotistical approach, and ask people what they want, then perhaps you will come up with a solution that is more agreeable to people.

[Adventure427]

Power just means the capability to act.......


As has been said...what it's used for must be taken into account...


We train martial arts...those who do not, (unless they have a weapon) may not have the power to help a girl being raped...we do.... (or we will, for us newbies)...

---Unless they call the cops, or cause attention to the scene or convince someone else to help her immediately---That's Power

Those who have no money...do not have the power to donate food and money to starving children in africa....those who do have the power may not use it that way...This is Power

Power can come from tons of things...your own power and other peoples power... If my car is broke, and i ask for a ride...or take a bus...or ride a bike...these are all expressions of my power being used to get from point a to point b.

Power is neutral... "Guns dont kill people...people kill people..." - DMX (lol)

"With great power come responsibility" - Dont remember who said it



We all have degree's of power....Power with our friends/family/children/community/world...whether we realize it or not.. Whether we BELEIVE IT or not... (if you doubt this imagine taking your family and friends out and picking up the trash in your neighborhood, offering a free carwash and hosting your own block party.......versus having everyone throw buckets of paint on everyones houses.......or doing nothing..... you telling me that no matter what you do, you're actions dont have any effect?) Of course...i know everyone is aware of this on an inner level, even if it takes a second to realize....

[rogue]

Guess the point I was trying to make is, if you assume Hitler or Mao changed things, did they really change them for the better?

Like the 48 rules of power if you look at it amorally you'll see the horror they created but also how one was a catalyst for progress in science and industry. Change creates more change.

Now morally I don't think those advancements were worth the lives of those murdered or killed by those two.

[Yum Cha]

If you want to split another hare....

Power and Leadership. One can have power, say, a big budget, and one can have charisma, and leadership qualities of good judgment and fairness, or even an understanding of his followers. To my mind both are power, but our author doesn't seem to recognise the positive inspirational elements of leadership in his "laws".

History is littered with examples of great leaders who overcame very powerful individuals and institutions with little more than righteousness, fairness, courage and conviction.

Granted, leadership is "a" power, as are money, influence, intimidation, etc, etc.

[rogue]

Can you name them?

[David Jamieson]

I would have to say that that is a fairly idealistic understanding and that righteousness, fairness, courage and conviction are not exactly the ways that things get done but rather they play into how stories get told after the fact.

I think you will be hard pressed to name more than perhaps a handful of people who had these attributes and who also had any real power.

For instance, one could say Ghandi had these things, but one could also say that Ghandi was prone to his lust, his prudishness, his conceit and ultimately divided his country in half and was himself intolerant. But yet, he is painted as a great soul.

You could say the Dalai Lama is a great and righteous person, or you could say he is also a coward who ran when faced with the reality of losing his power and his position as political god king over the uneducated masses of tibetan who literally worship him as such. Is that righteous or are we being played by the stories that are wrapped around these figures?

Food for thought.

Then we can look at men who we think may have been evil and have been painted with a black brush, but on further investigation of their actions, we might find that they did great things and made hard decisions.

beware the meme, call a spade a spade and carry on. It's all we can really do. :p