How important is lineage to you when picking a school/inst.

[xcakid]

For me, not so much. I mean I can probably identify with only few of the names on there in some styles. In others, you may as well print name of some Chinese recipe for peking duck.

I pretty much look at how the class is conducted. I ask the instructor his philosophy in teaching. And the main thing I ask is, "how long to get my black belt" any instructor that give me a number is definitely out. How can he/she know what my learning ability would be based on a hand shake and what comes out of my mouth. I also look at how his hi ranking students perform. I typically visit a school 2-3X and try it out for a month or two. Hence I don't like schools with contracts :p

Would like to hear everyones opinion regarding lineages, and its value. As well as wether or not it makes the intructor more credible.

[BruceSteveRoy]

its not really. as long as i know i am learning something useful and i like the atmosphere of the school and think it is conducive to learning and the instructor(s) are supportive than thats what matters. i mean i can go to a school with the best lineage in the world but if all the people are a bunch of a$$h0les than why bother? i won't like it and end up not going as much. aside from learning defense and fighting and all the other stuff its one of the only places i go besides work during the week so it also has a social element to it that is necessary. at least for me.

[yutyeesam]

REPUTABLE lineage is important to a degree, but definitely not the only thing to look for. The classes speak for themselves.

I have to respectfully disagree with the dismissal of teachers giving a time frame for black belt. Ask a high school teacher, how long does it take to get a HS diploma. Or a college professor, how long it takes to get a Bachelors, they will give you a time frame.

And what does a black belt mean anyways? It's not the end of anything, it just represents a bench mark, that lays a foundation for more advanced training. A time frame is actually good, because as educators, we have to help students set and achieve goals. If the average student can become black belt in say 4 years, and it is 6 years and you're still not there yet, then we need to figure out how to help you develop more intensity into your training. In our eyes, you are 6th year senior, when you really should have graduated by this time. We have to uphold our standards.

So, any lineage that is reputable for upholding high standards is definitely worth looking into. Why do you think schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc have high reputations? Because their high standards of the past reflect who they are today. Lineage can represent this. But again, it shouldn't be the sole indicator.

-123

[xcakid]

I have to respectfully disagree with the dismissal of teachers giving a time frame for black belt. Ask a high school teacher, how long does it take to get a HS diploma. Or a college professor, how long it takes to get a Bachelors, they will give you a time frame.

And what does a black belt mean anyways? It's not the end of anything, it just represents a bench mark, that lays a foundation for more advanced training. A time frame is actually good, because as educators, we have to help students set and achieve goals. If the average student can become black belt in say 4 years, and it is 6 years and you're still not there yet, then we need to figure out how to help you develop more intensity into your training. In our eyes, you are 6th year senior, when you really should have graduated by this time. We have to uphold our standards.



I guess I need to clarify my statement a bit. I am leary of any instructors that promises a certain belt within a certain specified time. Not everyone learns at the same pace. Some may also have more experience than others. Now if an instructor, give me an estimated amount of time, such as: "Typically it would take 3-4yrs to grasp the material taught and be proficient enough", rather than: "Oh I can make you a black belt in 2yrs"

Now I know that there are some instructors out there that will say give em all the material they can handle. Promote them to black as fast as possible. Who ever sticks it out that long, I'll just polish up their technics then and explain the concepts more in depth. Or just an instructor that is just out for the belt testing fees. I don't buy into that concept unfortunately. :D

[neit]

for me lineage is only about legitimacy. i dont want to learn from a liar or fraud. otherwise the lesson speaks for itself.

[brothernumber9]

When I first decided to join the school where I am at, lineage had zero to do with my choice. I never studied any martial arts before that time, outside of some Thompkins Karate as a kid, and some JKD stuff through a friend.

Now that I have studied for a fair while, hypothetically, If I were to look for a new place to train as a result of whatever circumstance, then I would have to say that lineage would factor into my decision, but not as much as checking a place, or places, out and verifying if they offered what I was looking for. But I would use my knowledge of lineages as a sort of fraud finder if my "cheesy gung" sense was tingling.

[bodhitree]

It can be a good thing, or a not so important thing. No matter how good someone's lineage is, that does not make that person a good teacher. I like that Judo has the USJF/ other governing bodies, a governing organization that gives you some idea as to where a person/instructor is. There are also people who can't perform well but know the in s and out s and make excellent teachers.

[TenTigers]

Lineage will only get you so far. You can have the worst student under the best teacher. What is lineage worth then?
You may be the founder, or second generation-such as I Liq Ch'uan's Sam Chin-who is held in high esteem in Mo-Lum.
It is all about the teacher's hand, character, and ability to teach.

[Fu-Pow]

2 important things when looking for a place to train:

1) good teacher

2) correct method

Lineage has nothing to say about #1. Lineage means that you MIGHT have the right method of training. But even
that is no guarantee as the teacher may have totally screwed things up from
the time he learned from his teacher.

FP

[xcakid]

I guess I have a follow up question: How far would you go into checking the validity of lineage?

I mean I could say, I studied under Yip Man himself. ;)

[Becca]

... Not at all. Good stuff is good stuff. I look first at wether or not the school is teaching what I need/want to learn, then at he teacher. After that, I want to know if I am comfortable with my fellow student's. Lineage is like a cool history lesson; great backround stuff, but not something to base my studies on.

[Water-quan]

I guess I have a follow up question: How far would you go into checking the validity of lineage?

I mean I could say, I studied under Yip Man himself. ;)


Some great teachers have poor students... and some teachers produce students who surpass them. For me, personally, lineage means nothign beyond a historical interest. if a person completely made up their art, but clearly had a profound skill and depth of knowledge, that is all that would matter.

Another aspect of all of this is the practice of "leeching" off other people's reputations - like saying "such a bod in our system was great, or could use trad kung fu, therefore I... we... are great" and so on. Look how shamelessly Bruce Lee's name is used.

[neilhytholt]

Lineage is just an excuse for not doing a lot of applications. If they were effective fighters they wouldn't need to talk about lineage.

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.

[PangQuan]

... Not at all. Good stuff is good stuff. I look first at wether or not the school is teaching what I need/want to learn, then at he teacher. After that, I want to know if I am comfortable with my fellow student's. Lineage is like a cool history lesson; great backround stuff, but not something to base my studies on.

excellent!!:D

[EarthDragon]

neit,
for me lineage is only about legitimacy. i dont want to learn from a liar or fraud. otherwise the lesson speaks for itself.

I like this statement. no one wants to learn from someone who lies or does not have REAL credentials and thats what lineage does for you. As well the teacher and hsi skill speak for themselves... well said


neighholt...
Lineage is just an excuse for not doing a lot of applications. If they were effective fighters they wouldn't need to talk about lineage.

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.
Today 02:57 PM


well your just and idiot , OK maybe thats a little harsh but the more posts you make the more I wonder......

[neilhytholt]

neighholt...
Lineage is just an excuse for not doing a lot of applications. If they were effective fighters they wouldn't need to talk about lineage.

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.
Today 02:57 PM


well your just and idiot , OK maybe thats a little harsh but the more posts you make the more I wonder......

Well what is the point of lineage? If you find a great fighter, do you really care what his lineage is? Who his grand-teacher was?

If somebody can teach you to be the best fighter in the world, do you really care what the lineage is?

No, right? If you do, if you wouldn't study with somebody who would make you the best fighter, then I'd have to say you're a fool.

Therefore, in CMA circles, I have yet to meet a single CMA fighter who could beat the best MMA and Muay Thai fighters. NOT ONE. Yet many of them have impeccable lineages -- some great fighter somewhere back, Yang, Sun, whoever.

So does it matter if they have a great lineage, if they can't fight worth a crap? No, right?

So it would appear that lineage is nothing more than an attempt by mediocre fighters to justify their existence.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.

[Becca]

Niel, would you go to a push hands turny to find a good mixed martial artist? If not, then stop using the lack of good traditional kung fu in MMA as a defence.

But I agree with refusing to study with the best due to a "lack of credentials". That's just 'tarded... :D

[neilhytholt]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.

Well, I'm sorry, but after being screwed over by teachers who claim eventually they teach apps, eventually doing the taiji form might lead to some fighting skill, you don't need partner practice, pay them $60-$100 per hour, sign up for their BB program, etc.

It's all B.S. Lineage is B.S. If they can't make you a good fighter, they aren't worth a penny.

Let's get real and say it like it is. CMA is full of worthless teachers justifying their existence on lineage, and people who go along with it because they don't really want to learn to fight -- they'd rather live in a fantasy.

[Becca]

Questions like this make no sense ultimately because what you see when you go to a school to check it out TOTALLY depends on where YOU are at at that point in time.

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice, so you wont really know if a teacher or school is right for where you want to go unless you already are at a stage that you can know what exactly you are observing.

A beginner and an experienced student are two completely different things, with different needs, etc.
Much truth to this.

[neilhytholt]

Niel, would you go to a push hands turny to find a good mixed martial artist? If not, then stop using the lack of good traditional kung fu in MMA as a defence.

But I agree with refusing to study with the best due to a "lack of credentials". That's just 'tarded... :D

Exactly ... I shouldn't go to a CMA teacher to learn to self defense and fighting applications. Let's just say it like it is.

I guess I was just too stupid to get that this entire time.

The ironic thing is, they probably got it. While they were taking my money and feeding me lies, with a smile on their face ... they understood that they were fleecing me. I was just too stupid.

[Becca]

I've seen some that are good with self defence and fighting. But you usually need to be a patient person to get anything out of it. I'm guessing you are not?

Nothing wrong with that. And if badmouthing those who do have the patience to search out the good ones and take the time to really learn it makes you feel better... so be it.:)

[neilhytholt]

I've seen some that are good with self defence and fighting. But you usually need to be a patient person to get anything out of it. I'm guessing you are not?

Nothing wrong with that. And if badmouthing those who do have the patience to search out the good ones and take the time to really learn it makes you feel better... so be it.:)

Is 15 years patient? Yes, I think that counts as patience.

Knifefighter is totally right about this. I always defended CMA but bottom line is Knifefighter is right on.

You want to learn to fight take boxing/MMA/Jujitsu ... doing forms for years isn't going to make you a good fighter.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And talking about being a "fighter" shows that someone doesn't really understand CMA at all.

CMA is about stopping a fight, not fighting.

Fighting is a sport, it is not self defense. It is a gladitorial type of sport (MMA).
It has not one thing to do with the art of self defense.

99.9% of the time you will have use martial arts for self defense you will not be up against a MMA type of gladiator person.
Unless you train to be a gladiator you will not be a gladiator.

Self defense on the other hand should be able to be done by ANYONE that learns self defense.
You do not need strength for self defense.

The small weak person can and has many times through out thousands of years used self defense when dealing with an attacker like a bull fighter deals with a bull.

Does the bull fighter fight the bull? No way. The bull fighter does EVERYTHING that CMA teaches (assuming that you are learning real CMA and not crap). The bull fighter evades, redirects, and traps the bull into hurting itself. The bull fighter never fights the bull on the bull's terms.

Self defense is bull fighting, it is not trading of blows against a gladiator.

To compare a self defense oriented CMA against MMA sports is RETARDED, and shows a foundamental nonunderstanding of what martial arts even is in the first place, sorry.

CMA are only about dealing with an ambush and evading, redirecting, and trapping the opponent's incoming energy, not attacking the attacker by trading of strikes the fastest, the strongest, the smartest, the coolest, etc. SPORT FIGHTING and Street Fighting is not self defense it is two people trying to be the LUCKIEST person against the other.

Wushu literally means "stop the fight". It is a concept and fighting is another concept with two contradictory ends.
Even the military teaches people to use self defense in hand to hand combat situations, not to "fight" the other person and play their game, and ultimately lose. If you play the other person's game, you must lose.

I've been learning CMA since 1975, I grow up in Newark NJ, having to fight my way to school and back, to the store, to anything. We learned what works and what doesn't. We certainly learned that sports fighting isn't self defense.
I also learned boxing, my close ancestor was 1930s world champion.
Boxing failed me in a self defense situation, I learned to use it for sport only. Once I started CMA I saw how the concept of stopping the fight (neutralizing the incoming attack) works everytime.

I have used CMA for over 30 years now for self defense all over the world in my travels, and it worked everytime. I have used Shaui Jiao, Tong Bei, Shaolin, Ba Gua, Tai Tzu, Tai Ji, Xing Yi movements to defend myself, as if they were one style.

Maybe if you REALLY studied to the point of really understanding self defense, then CMA would make sense to you enough to use it.

Maybe it is time to not blame others for your lack of insight and begin to look at your self instead.

I've been in classes with you, and I saw that you didn't get it. Blame the teachers for you not really absorbing what they teach, fine. Life will go on regardless.

[neilhytholt]

And talking about being a "fighter" shows that someone doesn't really understand CMA at all.

CMA is about stopping a fight, not fighting.

Fighting is a spot, it is not self defense. It is a gladitorial type of sport (MMA).
It has not one thing to do with the art of self defense.


Fighting, stopping a fight, same difference. If you can't beat an MMA fighter you sure aren't going to be able to stop the fight.

Actually, you will stop the fight. He'll pummel you and you'll lose. That will stop the fight.

I guess wushu really means 'to lose'.

[xcakid]

Exactly ... I shouldn't go to a CMA teacher to learn to self defense and fighting applications. Let's just say it like it is.




I have different result. I have taken CMA for the most part. Exception of 4yrs TaeKwonDo. I have not been in an MMA ring fight. However, I have been in real life altercations. 2 I have posted on this forum and a few others. I have won each and everyone with minimal to no damage on my person. But like you said, as a CMA'st, I would probably not fair well in MMA. Let's add throat strikes, spitting, kicking groin, eye gouges and being able to pull a gun or overall dirty fighting and I may be able to hold my own. :cool:

[neilhytholt]

I have different result. I have taken CMA for the most part. Exception of 4yrs TaeKwonDo. I have not been in an MMA ring fight. However, I have been in real life altercations. 2 I have posted on this forum and a few others. I have won each and everyone with minimal to no damage on my person. But like you said, as a CMA'st, I would probably not fair well in MMA. Let's add throat strikes, spitting, kicking groin, eye gouges and overall dirty fighting and I may be able to hold my own. :cool:

Well, I've met some good MMA fighters and I don't think for one second that I could beat them, even with dirty tactics. They're faster, bigger and more experienced.

And from what I've run into on 'the street', there are a lot of people on 'the street' that I don't think I could beat either. Angry people running around, people on meth and stuff.

Bottom line is there isn't enough apps time in most CMA classes. I've been banging my head against that for a long time now, but it's obvious that I've been looking for the wrong thing. I've been looking for apps oriented CMA.

What I should have been looking for was good MMA.

[Water-quan]

for me lineage is only about legitimacy. i dont want to learn from a liar or fraud. otherwise the lesson speaks for itself.


I can understand that, and if someone wants to learn a genuine art, then they want to find someone who knows it. But, obviously some famous teachers have a lot of students, and legitimacy is no indication of skill level, of course.

There is another aspect - when people really ask themselves the most important question: "why do I want to learn kung fu", then part of it is often the feeling of belonging to something - quite a natural desire, i think... which makes lineage more important to some than others.

[Water-quan]

Lineage is a way they can try to say that at some point back there was a decent fighter, to make up for their own shortcomings.

Yes, i think there is a lot of truth in that.

[Water-quan]

You wont notice what you aren't ready to notice,


Well, that is extremely wise! Not just for martial arts but for life in genral! Thanks!

[Water-quan]

What I should have been looking for was good MMA.

Or, what we think of as CMA is a bit of a fraud?? Maybe real CMA is much closer to MMA? Maybe there is no difference between Chinese and foreign, old or new, in terms of the real stuff?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Fighting, stopping a fight, same difference. If you can't beat an MMA fighter you sure aren't going to be able to stop the fight.

Actually, you will stop the fight. He'll pummel you and you'll lose. That will stop the fight.

I guess wushu really means 'to lose'.

You don't know what you talking about at all.

Fighting and Stopping a fight are completely different things. Clearly everything I wrote went right over your head, just like CMA goes right over your head.

Why would you be "beating" an MMA fighter? Why would such a trained person be fighting you? How could that happen in daily life?

That's not self defense, that's a sport.
You want to learn the sport then train for that sport.

You're saying the equivalent of "soccer doesn't work when you are playing baseball".

[neilhytholt]

You don't know what you talking about at all.

Fighting and Stopping a fight are completely different things. Clearly everything I wrote went right over your head, just like CMA goes right over your head.

Why would you be "beating" an MMA fighter? Why would such a trained person be fighting you? How could that happen in daily life?

That's not self defense, that's a sport.
You want to learn the sport then train for that sport.

You're saying the equivalent of "soccer doesn't work when you are playing baseball".

How do you stop a fight? By breaking an arm, knocking them out, poking their eyes, what? That's FIGHTING.

In MMA they fight to knockout or submission, submission is breaking something if they didn't stop it.

So I don't understand your distinction.

If you can't beat the average MMA fighter you sure as heck aren't going to be able to beat 2 angry muggers who are hopped up on drugs or something with weapons possibly who are bent on your destruction.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have different result. I have taken CMA for the most part. Exception of 4yrs TaeKwonDo. I have not been in an MMA ring fight. However, I have been in real life altercations. 2 I have posted on this forum and a few others. I have won each and everyone with minimal to no damage on my person. But like you said, as a CMA'st, I would probably not fair well in MMA. Let's add throat strikes, spitting, kicking groin, eye gouges and being able to pull a gun or overall dirty fighting and I may be able to hold my own. :cool:

yes, exactly, funny how people who can't use CMA say it is no good.

In a self defense situation the first thing to do is get out of the way of the incoming movement, SPIT into their eyes, and stick your fingers into their eyes as hard as you could, move the attacker so that you are outside them and unbalance them so that they fall.

If someone (neil) is stupid enough to actually fight the attacker, then who ever is fastest, strongest, youngest, more experienced, more stamina, more trained, more clamer, more wild, etc., in short more LUCKIER will get hurt while "winning" and using strength to attack the attacker.
Get a gun, it's a sure way to win a fight.

[neilhytholt]

Bottom line, Sal, is I used to argue just what you're arguing. But it's a load of crock. Because I can't find any decent CMA places anymore that do a lot of apps work.

So if you don't practice, how are you going to be able to fight? Simple answer: you aren't. Fight, stop fight, that's just semantics. If you can't fight you can't stop the fight unless you're a really good runner or something.

So the only places around that seem to do a decent amount of apps work anymore are the MMA places! It's actually totally obvious.

[neilhytholt]

If someone (neil) is stupid enough to actually fight the attacker, then who ever is fastest, strongest, youngest, more experienced, more stamina, more trained, more clamer, more wild, etc., in short more LUCKIER will get hurt while "winning" and using strength to attack the attacker.
Get a gun, it's a sure way to win a fight.

Yeah, Neil is just stupid ... never heard that one before. :rolleyes:

Bottom line is anybody who believes YOU is an absolute moron.

[Sal Canzonieri]

How do you stop a fight? By breaking an arm, knocking them out, poking their eyes, what? That's FIGHTING.

In MMA they fight to knockout or submission, submission is breaking something if they didn't stop it.

So I don't understand your distinction.

If you can't beat the average MMA fighter you sure as heck aren't going to be able to beat 2 angry muggers who are hopped up on drugs or something with weapons possibly who are bent on your destruction.

You stop the fight by not engaging in a trading of strilkes one against the other. you get out of the way, you even run away if you can escape. If you can't escape you redirect the incoming movement without needing brute strength, you then unbalance them (how you do that is the thousands of things CMA teaches), if their arm breaks it is a result of their movement that you redirected, not you grabbing and breaking their arm.

Again, the average MMA fighter I will never be up against as somone training that won't be a mugger, a drunk in a bar, an angry fool, etc, etc.

AND, 2 angry druggies with weapons EVEN a MMA will not be able to beat in a "fight". This type of raw altered state of attacker has to be treated as if a bull was attacking you. At some point you will be stuck by the horns of that bull, the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will do what it takes.
A beserker hell bent on your destruction is a human knife.
Before he is in submission to the MMA, the MMA will be hurt as well in some way.

CMA 's self defense has many thousands of submissions, I've learned them and used them. You can't say CMA doesn't have them, unless you've never learned them. Is there really anything in MMA that CMA doens't already teach? In my 50 years of being alive, I've never seen it.
5,000 years of CMA existence has made just about every situation part of CMA self defense techniques.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Bottom line, Sal, is I used to argue just what you're arguing. But it's a load of crock. Because I can't find any decent CMA places anymore that do a lot of apps work.

So if you don't practice, how are you going to be able to fight? Simple answer: you aren't. Fight, stop fight, that's just semantics. If you can't fight you can't stop the fight unless you're a really good runner or something.

So the only places around that seem to do a decent amount of apps work anymore are the MMA places! It's actually totally obvious.

How come I found them all, the places that teach apps apps apps?
I never was a passive learner, we learned forms, techniques, movements, and we used them over and over and over to get them right.

ALL CMA movements are simultaneous offense and defense, unlike sport fighting. That means the user does it and it works, like driving a car. Stopping the fight is a process with a result, it is just like driving a car, if you can understand what I mean by that.
You have to understand the difference between what is a result and what is a goal.

Again, your shortcomings you are projecting onto CMA.

[neilhytholt]

CMA 's self defense has many thousands of submissions, I've learned them and used them. You can't say CMA doesn't have them, unless you've never learned them. Is there really anything in MMA that CMA doens't already teach? In my 50 years of being alive, I've never seen it.
5,000 years of CMA existence has made just about every situation part of CMA self defense techniques.

It's not a matter of having or not having.

It's a matter of TRAINING. The CMA schools around here don't seem to have any realistic training. They have no idea of what actual combat against a strong angry attacker would be. They train FORMS primarily, not apps.

The only schools that I can find around here that train a lot of apps are MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai/boxing/kickboxing.

So I've been banging on all these CMA schools doors, and asking why they don't train apps. It was a stupid question the entire time.

Because the apps schools are the MMA schools now.

[neilhytholt]

How come I found them all, the places that teach apps apps apps?

I guess because you're older. I never had a problem finding apps oriented CMA places either until recently, past 10-15 years or so.

[Water-quan]

You don't know what you talking about at all.

Fighting and Stopping a fight are completely different things. Clearly everything I wrote went right over your head, just like CMA goes right over your head.

Why would you be "beating" an MMA fighter? Why would such a trained person be fighting you? How could that happen in daily life?

That's not self defense, that's a sport.
You want to learn the sport then train for that sport.

You're saying the equivalent of "soccer doesn't work when you are playing baseball".

Well, that's not true in my view. As for whose head it goes over - well, it goes over the heads of the people who aren't taking in the wake up call. It's nouse saying "why would a CMA stylist be fighting an MMA stylist?" as if that solves the problem of why CMA boxing theory isn't good enough... or, sticky plasters over it. It doesn't... or, some peopel are quite determined to peel up the stick plaster and see what's hiding!

The answer to all of this is obvious, like all truly wise things. What we know of as CMA isn't real CMA... and the differences between any kind of martial art are all surface - all that matters is the real theory, the real techniques, and what works best and what doesn't work, for a specific aim. As for everything else - why waste a short life defending nonsense?

[neilhytholt]

It really seems like something happened like a little over 10 years ago. The first non-apps oriented place I ever visited was some wushu place in NYC with a guy from the PRC in the mid 90s. After that, I didn't give it much thought, until I got to Seattle and what they were calling 'applications' wouldn't work against a strong angry attacker. Not at all. Way too watered down, not effective at all.

It seems that the PRC teachers just had way too much influence over here, but I don't think you can blame them entirely because other people here who had teachers from San Francisco or Vancouver do mostly forms as well.

At some point, I think, people just stopped wanting to do actual applications. At least that's what a lot of older teachers have told me that retired because their classes were empty.

At any rate, the MMA schools meanwhile do fighting, do submissions. So I've been asking the wrong question, banging up against the local CMA people.

[Water-quan]

Event he PRC wushu teachers admit that. It's their student who don't! Very funny!

Still, there may be one or two...

[neilhytholt]

But anyway, the original question, how important is lineage? I'd say not important at all.

The Yang grandson teaches in Seattle when he's in town and you'd be hard pressed to find any fighters from his school. It's not his students interest, evidently. Yet when I approached them on the subject they got into a hissy fit.

He teaches forms and a little push-hands. Yet he has the best lineage in town.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah, Neil is just stupid ... never heard that one before. :rolleyes:

Bottom line is anybody who believes YOU is an absolute moron.

If you were right, CMA would have died out many hundreds of years ago.
If you were right I would have died many years ago and so would have a lot of other people.

That fact that you keep harping on this topic shows you are projecting.

[neilhytholt]

Event he PRC wushu teachers admit that. It's their student who don't! Very funny!

Still, there may be one or two...

Admit it ... I don't know if they admit it. They will say probably you don't need partner practice, etc., it will 'come out in the fight'. At least that's what they always told me.

Heck, I don't know what to do about my last PRC teacher. He just called me wanting me to come back to class. I can't tell him I don't want to study because he doesn't do apps -- he'll have an absolute fit. I'm trying to decide if I should just not return his calls or give some lame excuse.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I guess because you're older. I never had a problem finding apps oriented CMA places either until recently, past 10-15 years or so.

Okay, now thats a serious topic, not the CMA sucks, but that new schools suck, and of anything. Not just CMA.
I agree.

[neilhytholt]

If you were right, CMA would have died out many hundreds of years ago.
If you were right I would have died many years ago and so would have a lot of other people.

That fact that you keep harping on this topic shows you are projecting.

I wouldn't call it projecting. I'd call it ****ed that I wasted so much time on useless teachers, and can't find any decent place to train.

[neilhytholt]

Okay, now thats a serious topic, not the CMA sucks, but that new schools suck, and of anything. Not just CMA.
I agree.

Yeah, I'm not saying CMA (in past history) sucks. I'm saying most CMA schools NOW seem to suck. And karate. And pretty much everything I come across.

It seems the only places that do any decent apps now are the MMA schools.

It could be mostly Seattle. People keep referencing these decent schools down in CA or in New York or wherever but around here their idea of fighting apps is mostly kickboxing or roushou drills done all soft like.

But it really seems like the people interested in fighting have gone over to the MMA side. The people who want to do it as a hobby without a lot of contact go for CMA or karate.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It really seems like something happened like a little over 10 years ago. The first non-apps oriented place I ever visited was some wushu place in NYC with a guy from the PRC in the mid 90s. After that, I didn't give it much thought, until I got to Seattle and what they were calling 'applications' wouldn't work against a strong angry attacker. Not at all. Way too watered down, not effective at all.

It seems that the PRC teachers just had way too much influence over here, but I don't think you can blame them entirely because other people here who had teachers from San Francisco or Vancouver do mostly forms as well.

At some point, I think, people just stopped wanting to do actual applications. At least that's what a lot of older teachers have told me that retired because their classes were empty.

At any rate, the MMA schools meanwhile do fighting, do submissions. So I've been asking the wrong question, banging up against the local CMA people.

Dude, that's the whole thing, the PRC has been working to defang CMA since the communists first too over, not that they didn't hire CMA bodyguards for themselves mind you, but the average person they don't want them to be able to revolt one day and be able to use hand to hand combat.
How do you make CMA a national treasure with world recognition, tourist dollars, etc, etc, AND not create a powerful armed populace that the government would have to fear? Make them learn psuedo sport CMA that's how.
NOW THAT IS THE PROBLEM, modern crap that not traditional natural CMA.

[neilhytholt]

Dude, that's the whole thing, the PRC has been working to defang CMA since the communists first too over, not that they didn't hire CMA bodyguards for themselves mind you, but the average person they don't want them to be able to revolt one day and be able to use hand to hand combat.
How do you make CMA a national treasure with world recognition, tourist dollars, etc, etc, AND not create a powerful armed populace that the government would have to fear? Make them learn psuedo sport CMA that's how.
NOW THAT IS THE PROBLEM, modern crap that not traditional natural CMA.

Yeah but I don't think you can blame the PRC entirely. Karate doesn't do traditional apps in the U.S. either.

And there's a lot of schools like CLF, Hung Gar, etc., that came from before the PRC, and these are now mostly forms based as well, with some drills but mostly forms performance.

And if you try to get together with people to do apps, like practice partners, they can't agree on what the apps should be, and it turns into a big mess.

So I don't really know what to do about it, honestly. There are only a handful of decent schools that I've come across references to and unfortunately I don't really want to move to where they are right now (NY, Texas, London, Australia, Vancouver BC).

But anyways, I'd have to agree with Knifefighter now that MMA schools are probably the only place around here to get any fighting in.

[Water-quan]

Admit it ... I don't know if they admit it. They will say probably you don't need partner practice, etc., it will 'come out in the fight'. At least that's what they always told me.

Heck, I don't know what to do about my last PRC teacher. He just called me wanting me to come back to class. I can't tell him I don't want to study because he doesn't do apps -- he'll have an absolute fit. I'm trying to decide if I should just not return his calls or give some lame excuse.


No one owns you. Trust yourself.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay. I agree that finding a school where the people actually can really use their style is very hard to find, but I don't blame it on Forms (but obviously if they only do forms and nothing else that's a big crap out).

First and foremost a teacher has to understand the theory of their CMA, their style, and what the forms are saying.
That's what's lacking.

Forms ARE Apps. They are collections of apps.

It's when a teacher doesn't understand that concept that Forms become a type of ballroom dancing.

Without the qi gong/ nei gong work, without the conditioning work, without the deep thinking of theory and strategy, without using movements to actually defend one's self, then no matter is taught it is flaccid lifeless useless waste of time.

When I watch people doing martial arts, even old people, I can tell right away that they never had to defend themselves ever in their life and their forms show it.
When I watch videos of old masters that I know for a fact that they did use it for real, their forms show it, I see right away that there is intention behind the movements because they have experience creaming people with them.

Luckily the teacher's I have had in CMA have been nutty and fought a lot.

AND, having learned CMA the old fashioned way, I LOVE to do forms because when I do a form all the applications reveal themselves to me, I don't even need to have someone show them to me at this point.

Doing forms over and over and over again so that you tune everything out to perfect the correct body mechanics, strategy, and theory, nei gong and wei gong, of the form is a form of hypnosis. The movements do "appear" as you need them in a self defense situation, because your body learned them, you have deep muscle memory and sudden reflexes from doing the forms so much. You have no time to decide what moves to use in self defense situation, your body takes over and you just do it. Its like you can watch yourself while it is happening.
it's been that way for me each time I have used CMA to defend myself, but it's not that I "use it", it is more like it is using me. The founder of the form's movements is speaking directly to me and my body performs the move correctly, efficiently and effectively. That's what gives you confidence, hard work and practice.

The forms were just the vehicle for the applications.

But just learning applications without context is just as bad as just learning forms without purpose. You need context and purpose both.
Regardless of whether you are learning CMA or MMA.
MMA is CMA, how could it not be? There is no move in MMA that is not seen in CMA.
The difference is how one applies himself.

Every famous master in the old past looked at their forms as a collection of loose techniques, they could and would practice the forms forward and backwards, from the middle to the ends, mirror image, etc, they took them apart like a clock and put them back together.

Learning forms deeply is like learning to drive a car or ride a bike. Once you have "it" it becomes second nature.

When I first progressed enough to get this (and doing 20+ years of research in history of CMA styles has enormously taught me insights from the tried and true ancient ways of doing things) I was able to immediately use CMA not just for self defence.
For example, waitress next to me turned her tray up to high on one side and a full drink started to slide off and would have landed on me if not next to me, and while I was talking to the person in front of me, my hand of it's own will grabbed the drink as soon as it slid off the tray. It surprised everyone especially me!

Better yet, I got $10,000 reward for saving a girl's life on the road thanks to CMA arts. After years of doing CMA correctly I instinctively could "feel" where somone's pressure points were when I touched them. Soon as I made contact my fingers touch those painful spots, without formal "pressure point" training (touch this and this happens, etc, etc). SO, one night a truck hit the car in front of my (a small jeep with the top down) and it flipped over twice and landed upside down.
I stopped and looked under the car and she was hanging upside down by her seat belt and her face had hit the ground (roll bar kept her from totally smashing her head) and there was a huge pool of blood with teeth all around her head.
Now, you can't loosen her, in case her neck is broke, and you can't give mouth to mouth with all that blood and she started making choking sounds and then stoped breathing. Suddenly, I just knew what to do, but again it was my body doing while I watched, I told someone to hold her forehead still so she can't move and I went around to her side and I hit a pressure point in her thigh that made her suddenly gasp and a clump of blood plopped out of her mouth and she was breathing again and she woke up to and started flailing her arm around. I ran to around to her ear and whispered to her and told her she was in an accident and there was nothing she can do right now this minute except to accept it and to just stay still and breath and just be here right now and don't fight it. She looked at me with an understanding eye (the one she had undamaged) and calmed down.
A half hour later (huge traffic jam of course) a doctor arrived (and some minutes later a policeman). The doctor asked me what happened and I told him and I said I revived her. He asked he I did it and after I told him, he said "great, that's the only way she could have been saved right now" and he stuck his bare hands in her mouth and cleared out crap and teeth and started talking to her and asking what hurted on her, etc.
Later I was award the Theodore Vail Award (3rd place) and got $10,000 for saving her life, which was via CMA.

Would MMA have prepared me to do that? I doubt it.

It was deep instruction and PRACTICE of CMA that allowed me to do it.

[Dim Wit Mak]

I think it is nice to be able to say that my lineage goes back 200, 500, 1000 years and all that, but I don't really care that much. I want to practice effective self defense. If a current martial artist has founded his own system, is ethical, and the system is well rounded and effective that is what is important to me.

On the other hand, if were to study a system that has been around awhile such as Choy Lay Fut, Bak Mei, or Bak Fu Pai, and had an outstanding, ethical sifu, that would be great too.

I think I have read too many stories about shady sifus who teach worthless material to those who aren't in the "inner circle" and just take money and laugh behind the garden variety "student's" backs. They are even purported to hide information from even their advanced students. These reports really bother me.

That is why the character of the instructor and effectiveness of the system is more important to me than lineage.

[neilhytholt]

I think I have read too many stories about shady sifus who teach worthless material to those who aren't in the "inner circle" and just take money and laugh behind the garden variety "student's" backs. They are even purported to hide information from even their advanced students. These reports really bother me.


Yeah it should bother you because they are con-men, thieves and liars.


That is why the character of the instructor and effectiveness of the system is more important to me than lineage.

This is known as putting your money where your mouth is. Too few teachers these days actually fight and far more claim lineage to make money, living off the legends of the past.

[Fu-Pow]

I think one thing that people have not addressed is who has the correct "method." You can train for years and years and you're not training the right way then you're wasting your time.

Some schools seem to think that doing forms ie Tao Lu ad nauseum is the correct "method." Its not now and it never was. Working on conditioning, body mechanics, drills and sparring are the most important. Forms are only useful in that they work conditioning and body mechanics but if you only do that then you only have half of the equation.

[xcakid]

First and foremost a teacher has to understand the theory of their CMA, their style, and what the forms are saying.
That's what's lacking.



I wholeheartedly agree with that. I came to TX in 2001. It took me till about 4months ago to find a sifu that knows WTF he was talking about.

I tried out his class for a month. In my first private lesson, I asked a lot of questions. Having been in CMA for nearly 12yrs total, I pretty much knew the answers to the questions I was asking. I asked a lot of what was called "hidden applications" within the techniques and variable applications. He knew them all and was able to expand on them far exceeding my knowledge(which is not that hard to do :D). He knew a lot about body placement. Proper hand placement. I would sometimes do a technic sloppy(drop my hand, not use the proper fulcrum etc.) and he would catch it. Very impressed.

I have visited a number of KF schools in the area. I have only found 2. One unfortunately wanted a 2 yrs contract. Most schools did not know squat about applications of forms. How to break it down to defensive manuevers. Some schools I went to, started their own style of kung fu claiming they took the best out such and such style, yet they are teaching the same generic stuff and not able to break the technics down. They also can't explain the health benefits in doing forms. Not many sifu's know that certain forms are set up a certain way to work a specific part of the body or internal organ. You start "modifying it to fit modern applications" can and will ruin it.

Yep, some(not all) of CMA today are severly lacking.

[EarthDragon]

neil
have you ever realized it was YOU! not the teachers fault you didnt learn anything for 15 years?

your posts tell the type of person you really are and most of us realized that talking to you is a waste of OUR time.

Face it theres just some people who never get it and will never get it and will never be good at CMA JMA or MMA and that is you... sorry for being so frank but that's just how it is

[neilhytholt]

neil
have you ever realized it was YOU! not the teachers fault you didnt learn anything for 15 years?

your posts tell the type of person you really are and most of us realized that talking to you is a waste of OUR time.

Face it theres just some people who never get it and will never get it and will never be good at CMA JMA or MMA and that is you... sorry for being so frank but that's just how it is

It's a matter of not enough partner practice. Teachers have no incentive if they can make their $$$ teaching forms.

Punching and kicking, etc., isn't really that hard, is it? But if your teachers only do forms and don't provide enough partner practice you're wasting your time.

Anyways, I quit my PRC teacher. He's gonna be peeved. But that's what he gets for too many forms and not enough partner work. Anyways, he'll be sure to get some more victims to fleece $$$ from.

[neilhytholt]

But I'm tired of people telling me that it's MY problem.

If your teacher isn't giving what you want, why are you paying them? If you took a job, and your boss said he wanted you to do filing and answer the phone, and you said you just wanted to drink coffee and play solitaire, how long would you last?

Not long, right? Because you're not giving them what they hired you for.

So these schools aren't teaching martial arts. They aren't teaching fighting. They are teaching dancing forms performance. They say, "If you want to learn to fight, practice with partners outside of class."

Then what the HELL are you paying the teacher for, if they aren't teaching you to fight? If they aren't providing partner practice, applications practice?

And my last teacher actively dissuaded his students from practicing with each other, because he wanted to make more $ off of them. He didn't want them sharing anything.

So I've had it. Enough is enough. It doesn't seem like they will be hurting for business because there are hundreds of people around here who will do forms and won't realize they can't fight worth a crap. The people who want to learn to fight will go to MMA.

[The Xia]

You ever try Sifu John S.S. Leong's or Sifu Mak Hin Fai's kwoon? That’s just off the top of my head. Do you expect us to believe that there is nothing good in all of Seattle? I'm sure the city has plenty of good martial arts. Have you even tried the two schools I just mentioned?

[neilhytholt]

You ever try Sifu John S.S. Leong's or Sifu Mak Hin Fai's kwoon? That’s just off the top of my head. Do you expect us to believe that there is nothing good in all of Seattle? I'm sure the city has plenty of good martial arts. Have you even tried the two schools I just mentioned?

Those are forms heavy schools, and while they do some drills and sanshou at least at Leong's school, it's traditional Hung Ga, and they do the sanshou with big gloves.

His taiji class doesn't do any apps at all.

Both those schools are forms, forms, forms. From what I've run across from people who go / went there (like GoldenArms and Fu Pow), they can't fight any better than kickboxers.

So, no, I don't think it would be worthwhile.

[neilhytholt]

Basically what I've done is I've set up Neil's "apps to forms index". I've indexed all the schools I've visited on the amount of time they spend in partner work and hard sparring versus the amount of forms.

Those two schools you mentioned are higher up on the apps scale, especially Leong's due to the sanshou than most other schools around here.

However, they are still much, much lower than a school like AMC, Ring Sports United, BJJ schools, etc.

And, back to the original topic, the school with the best lineage around here is the Yang taiji, taught by the grandson of the Yang family . It's almost at the bottom of the list. The only school that I've visited that's lower is http://www.embracethemoon.com/.

[B-Rad]

I haven't had to go around scouting schools or teachers too many times, but the few times I have 1st I check out a class or something to see if I actually like what I see. Then next I look into the teacher's background and "lineage" to make sure they're still not a crook. There are some talented teacher's out there who insist on lying about their background, or might be involved in other illegal activities. While some might still train with someone like that, I feel pretty confident I can always find someone as good who doesn't carry around that kind of baggage.

[xcakid]

neilhytholt, from what you have said, you are not cut out for martial arts in the true sense of the word. You are a fighter, rather than a martial artist.

A martial artist cultivates all aspects of his life. Discipline, physical abilities, and internal power. A side effect to this is being able to defend himself. Discipline teaches him/her to shy away from many altercation. Strenghtening and synchronizing mind and body give him/her ability to hold their own in a fight. This all may sound mystical, but let's not forget the history of martial arts. Bodidharma basically devised a way for monks to strengthen their bodies for meditation. As a side effect, they were able to defend themselves. They then expanded on that, but never forgot the root off all of it is controlling their bodies, their lives and environment. It is not used for pummeling people.

Now a fighter does have another goal. Boxers goal is not physical fitness or self defense. It is to learn to hit someone, subdue or knock them out. Physical fitness and discipline is a side effect.

You see the difference? You have been trying to learn the wrong thing. You misinterpreted what Martial Arts is all about. You sould've been learning how to fight all along. That is the reason why you like MMA so much. You are more into the aspect of fighting, rather than the entire reason martial art is out there.

As I have mentioned on my post before, form are meant to strengthen the body through coordination, balance, use of power and form also work internally via cardio vascular, some forms are meant to strengthen internal organs. As a side effect, they can be used as a self defense. I am under the impression that you have not completely grasp this concept.

Nothing wrong with being a fighter. But you must understand martial arts is not all about fighting. You have a very narrow view of the martial arts, thereby being frustrated by it. I believe you view martial arts = fighting. Understandable. But really martial arts is more. Much like some people equate the military to war and gun. Yet the military provides education and life experience, not to mention travel when you would otherwise will not.

You really can't have a narrow outlook when taking martial arts. If you only want to learn how to fight. Traditional martial arts is not for you. MMA may just be your home. Or other types of martial arts that concentrates of the fighting aspects such as kung fu san soo, muay thai, etc.

[neilhytholt]

being able to defend himself.

This is what many schools aren't teaching. If they aren't teaching this, then I'm sorry but then they ain't MA schools.

By the way, you might want to look up the term "martial arts" in the dictionary. Arts of or pertaining to war. If they aren't teaching self defense or arts of war, then they're not martial arts schools.

CHURCH is where you're supposed to go to get character and become a good individual, right? Not MA class.

Just the fact that you said that self defense is supposed to be a "side effect" shows how skewed things have become.

[neilhytholt]

Look, guys, this is easy. WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME ON THIS???

Is martial arts, MAR-tial arts? Or is it something else? Last I checked, if Musashi (Book of 5 Rings) hadn't been a FIGHTER, a killer, first and foremost, hadn't been able to DEFEND HIMSELF ...

He would never have LIVED LONG ENOUGH to be able to philosophize about being a better person, peaceful, or whatever.

The only reason you can even argue that MA isn't about fighting is that a lot of warriors fought so you could live in a relatively peaceful country. Because you have an entire army of warriors (armies, navies, police), defending your sorry asses on a day to day basis so you don't have to.

Martial arts are supposed to be arts of WAR, right? If you want to learn character or to be a better person, go to CHURCH ... that's what they invented it for.

[Royal Dragon]

...................Word.....................

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, I finally found the solution to the non-fighting problem. A professional sparring partner:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/lbs/292477129.html

[sunfist]

Anyways, I finally found the solution to the non-fighting problem. A professional sparring partner:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/lbs/292477129.html

Are you SURE you dont want to whine about it some more?

[neilhytholt]

Are you SURE you dont want to whine about it some more?

Nope. I'm done. Next topic?

[Golden Arms]

Neil is NOT a fighter, and Leongs school at least is not like that LOL. I cant speak for the Tai Chi, but I know of several non sport fighters from Leongs school, and forms are done there for 20 min of the 2+ hours of class. San Shou is of course done with big gloves on since that is how San Shou is fought. Its good to see another thread derailed by this awesome individual :rolleyes:

[sunfist]

Nope. I'm done. Next topic?

*Shaolin Do sucks

*southern vs northern

*ring vs street

[neilhytholt]

Neil is NOT a fighter, and Leongs school at least is not like that LOL. I cant speak for the Tai Chi, but I know of several non sport fighters from Leongs school, and forms are done there for 20 min of the 2+ hours of class. San Shou is of course done with big gloves on since that is how San Shou is fought. Its good to see another thread derailed by this awesome individual :rolleyes:

You yourself told me you had to water down your moves for san shou, that you couldn't use your crane's beak or whatever in sanshou ... LOL

Yeah, I have no idea about Leong's class ... but as for you a fighter, you're no better than any MMA person, are you? Prove me wrong.

[neilhytholt]

*Shaolin Do sucks

*southern vs northern

*ring vs street

Yes, Shaolin Do sucks. Southern vs. northern ... Northern sucks. Ring vs. Street ... Ring sucks...

LOL

Actually since I finally found a sparring partner that I can pay by the hour without talking and gossipping and complaining about moves, I don't think I'll be posting much anymore.

[Golden Arms]

I dont fight San Shou to win, I fight San Shou to try out concepts on resisting opponents that dont like me much/want to hurt me. I dont recall saying that to you either but of course its true, San Shou/San Da is much different from open hand fighting. What exactly do I have to prove to you and why? Remind me who you are again other than someone that has been b!tching for a couple years on this forum, while I and many others in the meantime have been training?

[neilhytholt]

I dont fight San Shou to win, I fight San Shou to try out concepts on resisting opponents that dont like me much/want to hurt me. I dont recall saying that to you either but of course its true, San Shou/San Da is much different from open hand fighting. What exactly do I have to prove to you and why? Remind me who you are again other than someone that has been b!tching for a couple years on this forum, while I and many others in the meantime have been training?

Actually, I was your kung fu brother ... LOL You don't have to prove anything to me. I'm through with this nonsense.

[Golden Arms]

If you were then you would know exactly what I can and cannot do. I have a hard time believing that. What school do I go to again?

[neilhytholt]

If you were then you would know exactly what I can and cannot do. I have a hard time believing that. What school do I go to again?

I don't know much about the school you go to, except what you told me, that it's Hung Ga, that you beat on each other, that you fight with sanshou, that the moves are watered down for sanshou.

The school you don't usually go to, however ... LOL

Anyways, for a 30+ year old you act more like a 21- year old. Which is why I decided not to train with you.

Anyways, maybe I have you confused with somebody else. The guy I thought you were doesn't do 'realtime physical negotiations', rather works for some lawyers.

[MasterKiller]

Yes, Shaolin Do sucks. Southern vs. northern ... Northern sucks. Ring vs. Street ... Ring sucks...

LOL

Actually since I finally found a sparring partner that I can pay by the hour without talking and gossipping and complaining about moves, I don't think I'll be posting much anymore.

Did you HIV test this guy, yet? What about tests for mat herpes?

No telling what diseases he may pass on to you!!!!!!!

[neilhytholt]

Did you HIV test this guy, yet? What about tests for mat herpes?

No telling what diseases he may pass on to you!!!!!!!

Yeah I already got my full body condom picked out.

[Golden Arms]

LOL, I have never met you, and if I had I would have worked with you on pretty much anything just like I do with all the other people I train with. I only work out at one CMA place regardless, and like I said, I still to this day dont get why you love to come on here and whine about how bad everything is. I have found many schools in seattle that I could walk into, train a bit with the guys, and then work whatever we are both interested in, curriculum or not, after or outside of class. Maybe you are taking the wrong approach, or just not asking at all, or maybe you havent even set foot inside a school?

[MasterKiller]

Yeah I already got my full body condom picked out.

You probably already got mat-herpes just reading his online ad. You should think twice about letting your eyes contact that sort of thing. Think of the children...

[neilhytholt]

LOL, I have never met you, and if I had I would have worked with you on pretty much anything just like I do with all the other people I train with. I only work out at one CMA place regardless, and like I said, I still to this day dont get why you love to come on here and whine about how bad everything is. I have found many schools in seattle that I could walk into, train a bit with the guys, and then work whatever we are both interested in, curriculum or not, after or outside of class. Maybe you are taking the wrong approach, or just not asking at all, or maybe you havent even set foot inside a school?

Yes, that must be it. I never stepped inside a school.

I must have you confused with another guy who hardly ever shows up to his other class and does sanshou at Leong's school.

At any rate, whatever.

[Golden Arms]

Like I said, there are open mat times, throwdowns, and I and other people on here have implied or offered in the past to work out with people outside of our styles or let them checkout what we do. If you had met me, I would know because (unless I am assuming here) you would have introduced yourself, expressed your interest in working this stuff, and we would have trained. Its pretty simple, and I can think of at least 4 local schools that are cool with this type of thing. Oh and there are like 20+ people that train San Shou on average at that school, most of which would also love to work with other people outside of the school, since fresh bodies are hard to come by...

[neilhytholt]

Like I said, there are open mat times, throwdowns, and I and other people on here have implied or offered in the past to work out with people outside of our styles or let them checkout what we do. If you had met me, I would know because (unless I am assuming here) you would have introduced yourself, expressed your interest in working this stuff, and we would have trained. Its pretty simple, and I can think of at least 4 local schools that are cool with this type of thing. Oh and there are like 20+ people that train San Shou on average at that school, most of which would also love to work with other people outside of the school, since fresh bodies are hard to come by...

Hmmm ... then I guess I must really have you confused because the guy I talked to was tall, relatively skinny, worked in some lawyers office and did sanshou at Leong's. Can't remember his name, but his attitude was really dismissive, thought sanshou was the end all be all of fighting, so I didn't pursue training with him further.

Bottom line is I don't want to do sanshou because with those big gloves it's not CMA -- it's just kickboxing. I don't really like Hung Ga either. Otherwise I would have gone to Leong's school a long time ago.

The guy I talked to showed me his crane's beaks, and then said he couldn't use them in sanshou. If you can't even use your moves, then why bother?

Those 4 schools ... do any of them allow the use of non-big puffy gloves? Like MMA gloves? If so, then perhaps that would be a solution as well. Leong's school is the only one I heard of that does sanshou.

[Dim Wit Mak]

If building character is not a part of martial arts training, then it seems to me that we should call it a Thug School instead of a Martial Arts School. Then violence can be used for any purpose one wants without regards to ethical or legal considerations.

Of course, a lot of people are going to use their Thug Training in a violent way ignoring cause and effect considerations. They can "win" the fight and then spend several years in prison. This ain't winning in my book. Maybe this training will help fend off an attempted rape by Bubba.

I have studied martial arts to help control my violent tendencies, not unleash them. Martial training AND religion have helped make me a better person. My violent nature was very close to being totally out of control when I started so I have very strong feelings about this.

I do not want to be taken in by some huckster who feels there is a sucker born every minute, and not receive good self defense training. I want good self defense material. I also want to learn a better journey through life in its totality.

This has nothing to do with the first four paragraphs, but I also hate puffy gloves unless I am sparring under boxing rules. They cannot be used for Chin Na or animal/open hand techniques. It's OK for sport stuff, but not for the real world.

[neilhytholt]

If building character is not a part of martial arts training, then it seems to me that we should call it a Thug School instead of a Martial Arts School. Then violence can be used for any purpose one wants without regards to ethical or legal considerations.

Of course, a lot of people are going to use their Thug Training in a violent way ignoring cause and effect considerations. They can "win" the fight and then spend several years in prison. This ain't winning in my book. Maybe this training will help fend off an attempted rape by Bubba.

Did you ever consider that there might be some people who aren't violent and don't go around hurting people, who might want to learn to defend themselves against thug types?

Last I checked, violent thug types were pretty good at violence without martial arts training.

Anyways, like I said before, whatever ... at least you look for self defense training.

[The Willow Sword]

It is perfectly OK to not care about the lineage of a school(if your only goal is to learn how to fight) but also REALIZE that it is OK TO CARE about the lineage and rep of a school( if your goal is to also learn more than JUST how to fight).


Lineage is what establishes the reputation and the quality of the instruction of any school. Yet we have the exceptions to that statement where you have a school with a solid lineage and whose quality of instruction is very poor and only aimed at things like tournaments and winning trophies. You have the other side of the spectrum where the quality of instruction is good but the lineage is not reputable or it is questioned, and here is the gray area that most immerse themselves in. They would rather not care at all about lineage of systems and schools because the initial judgement is whether or not the teaching is good(IE: am i learning at a place that can really teach me how to fight and fight well?) In my opinion this is superficial and of course i am going to say that it is a waste to only seek out a school that has a good rep for fighting,in my opinion. But as i stated above it is OK to feel this way,even though i dont really agree with it. we all know or we choose to deny, is that martial arts is so much more than the fighting.

Peace,TWS

[Fu-Pow]

They would rather not care at all about lineage of systems and schools because the initial judgement is whether or not the teaching is good(IE: am i learning at a place that can really teach me how to fight and fight well?) In my opinion this is superficial and of course i am going to say that it is a waste to only seek out a school that has a good rep for fighting,in my opinion.


Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE
- mar·tial·ly /-sh&-lE/ adverb

[neilhytholt]

Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE
- mar·tial·ly /-sh&-lE/ adverb

What are people looking for in martial arts schools? It really seems from the responses on here that a LOT of these people who have responded are NOT looking to learn self defense or fighting.

So ... why are they doing martial arts, and not ikebana or going to church something? What are these people really looking for?

[Water-quan]

neil
have you ever realized it was YOU! not the teachers fault you didnt learn anything for 15 years?

your posts tell the type of person you really are and most of us realized that talking to you is a waste of OUR time.

Face it theres just some people who never get it and will never get it and will never be good at CMA JMA or MMA and that is you... sorry for being so frank but that's just how it is

Well now, bad teachers always blame the student. If the student wasn't capable of learning from the teacher, then the teacher should have told them, and not taken their money... A good teacher finds a way, or else is honest, and says no, I can't teach you.

What you wrote here ED made me feel ill! I need to lie down with a towel on my head for a day now! Poor teachers, cheating the people and blaming the students!

[Water-quan]

But you must understand martial arts is not all about fighting. .


Pass me the aspirin!

[Water-quan]

Look, guys, this is easy. WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME ON THIS???




Heh... the million dollar question. It cures my headache to read this, Neil! Thank god someone is awake!

As someone who has been where you are now for a long time, and having read plenty stuff by people who have been there even longer, I can tell you, the first thing to is be aware that people WILL fight you on it - ironically. There's a lot to learnf romt hat, via what is known as "cold mapping" - reading between the lines.


Second thing to see ius that they ARE fighting - despite what they say. They haven't by means overcome the desire for altercation and conflict. Words, or fists - overcoming the NEED for it is about ego-work... Which is a clue..

Because third, and most profound thing to see is that most of this is all in the MENTAL arena... EGO is the key factor. People have reasons why they buy in to belief systems... ideologies. You have to ask - as you have asked - the primary question of "why are you fighting me on this?"... the answer, of course, is that ideologies self-defend when attacked.

By approaching this issue, you are approaching people's personal needs - either psychological, financial, or ideological. Obviously, that will make people aggressive. Facing those issues requires, on the whole, a long journey, because it so difficult to face issues about ourselves and our sense of needs in the psychological arena.

In ohter words, belonging to somethig - a school, a lineage, and "knowing" martial arts, is all about self worth, self image, self-needs... and that is why people fight you on it - too close to home. And that is why people will insult you, call you stupid, fight you, be aggressive, and basically break every rule of wu de that there is, pretending to uphold it.

lastly, don't let it make you mad - you're wisdom has come to you after long sturggle - you have to be aware of that long journey, and see that others are still only half way on theirs - no one could have hurried you... we only see what we're ready to see!

[Water-quan]

Are you SURE you dont want to whine about it some more?


Wow,a nd in another breath you recommend Yiquan to someone??

[Water-quan]

Excerpt from an article issued by martial arts consultancy Gate of Quan:

FORMS, PATTERNS, KATAS
The training of forms, katas, and patterns leads away from a person’s individual style, because they rely on a person copying the style of another person. Whilst some people can, and do, say that there is room for individual interpretation within a form, that room is, in truth very limited. Each human being’s *style* is unique. Each person’s strengths and weaknesses are unique. Each person’s energy is unique. *External method* martial arts often use forms because they are based on copying movements, not on unfolding essence.

We do not say that it is wrong to train in forms by any means– just as we do not say that people should be interested in unfolding the essence of their own style. All we say is that for those who do seek to understand the essence of their own style and movement, forms training is at best pointless, and at worse harmful.

Forms are fine for those people who love forms – just as football or hockey is great for those people who love them. Our objection is to the untrue propaganda that is used to make forms in to something that they aren’t. Forms are not really martial arts, as in *war arts*.

First of all, it must be understood that we do not say that the actual techniques contained within forms are necessarily useless. It is our assertion that if essence is achieved, a person could use any technique that is within their physical capability. This is a seeming contradiction, but it isn’t really. This misunderstanding has led some people to think that the true essence of martial arts is simply to find and use the most effectively simple and violent techniques known to man. But that is not really essence. For example, a person who uses an outlandish and flowery posture during a fight when a simple one would have been sufficient might seem to contradict the principle of essence, yet that’s not true The essence is in the person’s intent to use an outlandish and flowery posture at that point. Achieving that aim in the most efficient and effective manner was the essence, not the actual technique.

However, in terms of ‘the human machine’, most techniques within forms are NOT designed to use the body in its most efficient or effective way, and forms themselves in no way bring out, train, or improve efficiency. In the above example of the fighter who employs an outlandish technique, that fighter accepts that he is not using his body in the most efficient way, yet he uses that technique as efficiently as it can be used, and so does not contradict the aims of essence. He perhaps compensates for the inferior power of the technique with his excellent timing. In this sense the fighter is in total harmony with essence – even though he knows he has taken a risk in terms of the overall fight, but in terms of his intention to execute that technique at that point, he was utterly in harmony with the essence and heart of his own style.

However, one of the component parts of a fighter’s ‘game’ must be his ability to use his human form to its maximum dynamic potential, even if he chooses not to. In fact, there is only really a ‘choice’ if he can do that. In other words, he must learn the most effective way to use his body to kick, punch, etc in a fight, or for any purpose – otherwise he can not achieve a point of expressing intent with maximum efficiency. The techniques contained within forms are largely useless in these terms – they are NOT the most effective techniques one can use in a fight, and they do NOT lead one closer to unfolding efficiency or essence. We assert that forms lead people FURTHER AWAY from essence, always – and that includes also all of the forms in taiji, and all of the other so called *internal* martial arts.

[Water-quan]

Part two

Some people claim that forms training, and other *fixed* so called traditional methods actually train the body to cope with a variety of possible unexpected circumstances. So, in those terms, for example, a proponent of fixed forms might argue that forms help train you for moving out of the way of a falling tree... etc... True enough, no one knows exactly what movements one might need in life, but far from contradicting essence, this actually proves the point. There are an infinity of possibilities in life – an infinity – not just the ones that a few forms might prepare you for. There is no way to practice every possible human movement. Yet, neither do we need to. We can already do every movement we can do – even the perfect versions of every movement. All we really need is to unfold the ability to do ALL movements as efficiently as possible, in any given circumstance – essence will author the movement as perfectly as we can, at the perfect time, if we only let it! Tao leads in to the ten thousand things. *technique* is just the movement... behind technique is something much simpler – whole body integration, and once this is achieved, you don’t need techniques as such – anything you want to do can be done effectively.

We assert that forms lead away from essence, yet forms do not do this because the movements they contain are virtually useless, even if they are – that is, again, a misunderstanding. They lead away from essence because one can not learn it from the outside in. True martial arts knowledge is within a person – not in some other person, or master.... true knowledge is not in any system, style or form – it is in you. You are already the master of your movement. All the knowledge you need is in you, ready, waiting, and the more you try and copy someone else’s movements, the ****her you go from trusting your own knowledge, or feeling the essence of your own movement.


We assert that the true *forms* are single movements, or rather, shapes of movements, based on dynamic principles of how the *human machine* most effectively works, which a person can then use to nudge his body in to remembering its own superlative version. A martial arts student needs an open mind, and some trust in themselves to work like this. They need to see a movement, and consider it, tear it apart, see how it works, see how it feels, and then see if they themselves can make it work more effectively. That is impossible with some blinded instructor telling them *No! It is exactly like this, this is the way we have done it for a thousand years...*

Hours, months and even years spent attempting to ‘master’ forms are merely years wasted, in terms of actual fighting skill, as this practice merely teaches the body to be fixed and unfluid. The fact that the techniques are actually next to useless, and that forms training does not teach one how to fight is almost a secondary issue. That’s not a problem for people who love forms, and are happy with that. It IS a problem if people teach forms on the basis that they will teach the student how to fight, and the student is training, spending time and money on that false pretence. That is a problem.

Part of the seeming paradox which causes confusion about forms is that those who advocate ‘essence’ state that any movement could be used if one has achieved an understanding of the underlying essence or true dynamic of martial art. This leads people to defend their *school’s* fixed movements with the cry: ‘everything could be used’. True, but then each person must look in the mirror and ask: ‘Could it be used by you?’

Where have forms come from?
Forms probably developed from shadow boxing type practice, and also from useful ‘combinations’ of movements that people had found to be consistently effective. Over time these ‘combinations’, for various reasons, became longer and more ‘fixed’. Perhaps people misunderstood the origin of their own teacher’s greatness, mistakenly assuming that it came from the exact execution of the techniques that he practiced, as if essence could come from the outside, and so slavishly copied those combinations, attempting to make their own movements as identical as possible. How ever it happened, the forms became long and fixed, and ‘schools’ developed based on those forms. People were taught the forms and the forms led them away from essence, making it even more difficult for people to understand what it is they had abandoned simply for the sake of form. Worst of all, forms began to change in order to ‘look good’ rather than be effective for any purpose, even for training basic skills. Even worse still, the reputations of past experts were used to support the lie that that greatness is in technique, rather than in the man. And even worse still, *teachers* used the reputations of past masters to bolster their own.

Forms are fixed, and that contradicts fluidity. Some argue that forms can be practiced with fluidity, citing for example the breath taking skills of modern wushu athletes. However, this is again a misunderstanding. Fluidity is not a technique, but a lack of fixedness. Put simply, moving like water is not the same as being like water. The astounding ‘fluidity’ of wushu athletes is merely the ability to look like they are fluid, not to be fluid! They practise the same movements over and over in order to gain the superficial appearance of fluidity, yet in truth they possess little, and have simply fixated their bodies on a handful of movements. If the best that they can do is to be fluid with a handful of movements then they are not actually fluid at all – fluidity means fluid in all movement, and in all intent.

However, at least the wushu forms are beautiful – most forms are even ugly, and so have utterly no virtue in the world. They are so, so far from their origin that they have lost all meaning. Yet, people have staked their reputations and businesses on them, so can not for anything let go!

[Water-quan]

Part three:

Another over-cited defence of forms is that they contain highly effective, even ‘deadly’ movements, but that these are ‘hidden’ in the flowery postures, maybe to prevent *lay men* from discovering them, and using them! We assert that this is a corruption of the truth. What has in fact happened is that effective techniques were corrupted over time in to ridiculous caricatures of themsleves, either by misunderstanding or by the simple, misguided process of making them ‘look nicer’. That is not hiding the technique – that is hiding the truth! Besides, if a teacher is teaching his students martial arts, why is he hiding the techniques from them? And if the techniques have been hidden, it is time to find them again. In truth, there is a gulf between *hidden* and *lost* - and people waste a lot of time and money to find that out.

This deceitful defence of forms is so corrupt and far-gone that advocates of various schools have even gone as far as stating that practicing the flowery, stylised techniques that appear in forms is perhaps even better than practicing the actual, realistic techniques that they are based on! The rationale behind this is that because they have trained the ‘extreme’ version of a technique in a form, it will be a piece of cake to perform its ‘easier’, more basic version in a fight. Another way of expressing this rationale would be to say that one should train with a big heavy rock tied to the back, so that when it comes to an actual fight one will be super light and fast. However, it doesn’t work like that. What those people actually find is that when they come to have a fight, they can’t put down the rock, and have to fight with it still attached to their backs. They can not free themselves from the fixed posture, yet neither can they actually perform it to any useful degree, and in the resulting mess, the fight, and maybe their life, is lost. The *extreme* versions weren’t *extreme* at all – they were just poor quality corruptions.

Overall, this line of argument is simply, again, based on a misunderstanding. A person is good at that which they practice, simple as that. Practicing forms makes you good at forms. Practicing fluidity makes you better at being fluid. No one, knowing that in six months time they faced a fight to the death, would spend that time practicing forms. No one. Unless of course, they believed some other person who told them that they should.

Besides, the ‘simple’ techniques are not simple at all. To perform any technique with true essence is a masterful achievement. The true *extreme* versions are the true traditional versions – not from two or three hundred years ago, but from the ancient past, when Tao was deeply understood and applied to martial arts.

At Gate of Quan we re-claim the true meaning of ‘form’. A form is a ‘shape’ of a single movement – a particular punch or kick etc, that has been found to be most in accord with the body’s physical, energetic, and dynamic ability for achieving a certain objective in a certain circumstance. The ‘form’ is not a technique that must be copied exactly, but more like a picture that the student’s body can use as a guide to unfold its own version based on that movement, perhaps even improving it, but not slavishly copying it. In simple terms, the coach performs a movement and says ‘it’s a bit like this’, and then the student considers the form , like a guide which can be adapted, then applied to a range of circumstances – yet it is in no way fixed, and the student may adapt it in new ways, to best suit their own style. That is form – prompting the body to remember how best to move.

Some people may point out that some martial artists achieved essence after years of following the practice of training in fixed forms. This is true, but those who achieved essence in this way invariably state that they only achieved it once they let go of form.

Copyright Gate of Quan 2005.