Begining of push hands/chi sau?

[Sicilian Tofu M]

Hi, I was told that there was no two man forms befor the Communist took over china. If so does anybody know the history of push hands/chi sau? Was their a begining or reason for its development like two man forms? Thankyou.

[David Jamieson]

Hi, I was told that there was no two man forms befor the Communist took over china. If so does anybody know the history of push hands/chi sau? Was their a begining or reason for its development like two man forms? Thankyou.


You were told wrong. There's been two man drills and forms for long before the commies.

Push hands and chi sau aren't exactly the same. Push hands is a principle in tai chi that teaches you how to interact with others. Chi sau is sticky hands and teaches you how to listen to another's energy and move with it.

[Royal Dragon]

Chi sau is sticky hands and teaches you how to listen to another's energy and move with it.

Reply]
Push hands teaches this too.....

[Water-quan]

Taiji is by no means the only art that uses push hands, of course -there are many variations, chi sau being but one. To my mind, both chi sau and taiji tui shou have their benefits, but both are very rigid and formal - very limited int he scope of experimentation and training that they can offer. It is perfectly fine to loosen it up, change the rules, one hand to one hand, odd hand to opposite and so on - as many variations, directions as you can think of. The freer it can become, the more benefits you can get from it, is my experience.

The phrase "listening to strength" as regards push hands is quite old, and probably means somethig much more akin to "just testing skill level a bit" than anything more mystical.

As for two man forms, pictures on the wall of Shaolin temple show Chinese and Indian monks doing two man training exercises. Stands to reason that anyone involved in martial arts will actually practice fighting with someone else, that being the point of fighting skills.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Chi Sau utilizes strikes in a training environment where push-hands, typically, doesn't.. there is a condition within push-hands where you manipulate your opponent to an "almost" unbalanced position, like walking of train tracks and nearly losing your balance.. you kind-of hang there, frozen between falling and not falling.. the opponent's muscles are committed to balance and not to protection.. in this condition, a strike will penetrate deep into the organs, or a push will send the opponent flying far..

In all but the best Chi Sau matches i see little internal applications.. there is usually good structure, fair rooting, but power is mostly external, a function of shoulder position and stance orientation.. that being said, Chi Sau with the likes of Francis Fong is nothing short of brilliant..

Be well..

[Water-quan]

Greetings..

Chi Sau utilizes strikes in a training environment where push-hands, typically, doesn't.. there is a condition within push-hands where you manipulate your opponent to an "almost" unbalanced position, like walking of train tracks and nearly losing your balance.. you kind-of hang there, frozen between falling and not falling.. the opponent's muscles are committed to balance and not to protection.. in this condition, a strike will penetrate deep into the organs, or a push will send the opponent flying far..

In all but the best Chi Sau matches i see little internal applications.. there is usually good structure, fair rooting, but power is mostly external, a function of shoulder position and stance orientation.. that being said, Chi Sau with the likes of Francis Fong is nothing short of brilliant..

Be well..

These kinds of differentiations between internal and external have little meaning, in my view. Strikes pentrating deep into the organs means nothing - excepty apowerful hit that hurts the organs. Relating that with push hands is misguided, in my view.

Push hands tends to deal with manipulation of an opponent, guiding in to off balance positions, or manipulating the guard, balance, stand up grappling applications. It's a training aid. Chi sau tends, as far as I have seen, to be more of an "in" for trapping and striking, that's true. Both ways have their merits. but both are just trainign aids.

[scholar]

A thorough pushing hands system should include training set drill and freestyle sparring at advanced levels; neutralizing and delivering sweeps, throws, locks, punches, kicks and other strikes. Also it should include timing and positioning strategy training for weapons, groundfighting and multiple opponent scenarios.

Pushing hands isn't fighting, it is training. It lets you know how well your training partner (and eventually your opponents) can stay balanced and deliver power, but even more importantly it lets you know how well your balance and power generation are coming along. "Know yourself and know the opponent: a thousand battles, a thousand victories."

It is well known in Taijiquan, but Baguazhang, Xingyiquan and Yiquan also have versions of pushing hands in their curricula that I have seen.

[Li Ma-Keh]

ALL forms are 'two' or 'more'-person forms if you visualize an opponent in there with you! (which you should). The 'only' single-person forms might be some Chi-Gong forms that relate to good-health only, or the line-up of accupuncture points, and not an opponent,...but even most of those can be related to martial techniques. Li Ma-Keh

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


These kinds of differentiations between internal and external have little meaning, in my view. Strikes pentrating deep into the organs means nothing - excepty apowerful hit that hurts the organs. Relating that with push hands is misguided, in my view.
It is a nuance of pushing that most people overlook, anyhow.. but in an active dynamic contest, being able to unbalance the opponent will cause them to utilize the core muscles for balance rather than protecting organs/internal structure.. less "power" is needed to do serious damage and the likely result is a hurt fighter that is falling.. the "kinds of differentiations between internal and external" that "have little meaning" to someone based on the described scenario.. is a perspective that is usually asserted by someone that has yet to relate internal arts to actual combat.. i know all too well the difficulty in transitioning from internal training to combat based on internal principles.. it took me over 10 years to make the transition and it took a very real demonstration of how well it works.. but, in the process of working with someone that "has it", the evidence is overwhelming.. it is the evolution of hand to hand combat..

Be well..

[SPJ]

yes both one man part of the 2 man drills/practice and 2 man drills exist on all styles.

I meant we always study and practice moves and countermoves in pairs.

dui lian or dui da are common names. dan lian and dan da would be one man part.

as pointed out both tai chi push hand and wing chun chi sau are both exercises/practices to remain in contact with the partner's forearm/wrist, and elbow etc.

one hand or both hand with fixed step and moving steps.

they are to familiarize the "listening and interaction of your jin with the partner's jin.

following, not opposing and not losing contact are big parts, too,

--

:)

[Water-quan]

Greetings..


It is a nuance of pushing that most people overlook, anyhow.. but in an active dynamic contest, being able to unbalance the opponent will cause them to utilize the core muscles for balance rather than protecting organs/internal structure.. less "power" is needed to do serious damage and the likely result is a hurt fighter that is falling.. the "kinds of differentiations between internal and external" that "have little meaning" to someone based on the described scenario.. is a perspective that is usually asserted by someone that has yet to relate internal arts to actual combat..


I am very sick of hearing that.



i know all too well the difficulty in transitioning from internal training to combat based on internal principles.. it took me over 10 years to make the transition and it took a very real demonstration of how well it works.. but, in the process of working with someone that "has it", the evidence is overwhelming.. it is the evolution of hand to hand combat..



I am sick of hearing that as well. I am not impressed by Taiji, and I have seen the highest level.

[Water-quan]

INTERNAL / EXTERNAL
In some martial arts a distinction has been made between ‘internal’ and ‘external’ styles, with the former being said to be more fluid, rounded, relaxed, and based on use of ‘qi’, and the latter based more on hard, straight, often ‘fixed’ movements, utilising mainly muscle strength. Even some martial arts experts believe this. However, it is our belief that these interpretations are wrongly appointed and have damaged understanding of the real nature of martial arts.

All movements of the body are movements of the body. All movements use muscles, bones, sinews - and truly powerful movements use whole body integration; that is, all of the body, not ‘internal energy’ but ‘total energy’. No supernatural forces are at work in powerful martial arts. Dis-appointing the expectation of secret, mystical powers opens the door way to real power, and even though that should be the simplest thing in martial arts thought, it is often quite difficult for people to accept. There are many reasons for this, but regardless of them, real strides forward in martial arts come when people begin working within the realm of their actual physical ability, rather than always waiting for a secret, mystical skill to evolve.

[Water-quan]

It is our belief that ‘internal’ does not by any means refer to anything to do with the superstitious notion of ‘internal energy’ which is a corruption of the original Taoist meaning, which is ‘unfolding’ knowledge from within, from the ‘internal’, i.e. from our own insight – in-sight and intuition – in-tuition (teaching the self.) Lao Tzu said that one need never leave their room to understand Tao, and that his knowledge of the world came simply by looking at the world and pondering it; perceiving via intuition.

‘Internal method’ has nothing to do with the type of movement used in any given martial art. Internal method means that the knowledge of movement and martial art is already in you, and that it can be accessed, or remembered, or even formed – all from personal exploration, for those who trust their intuition, actively thinking about their training.

‘External’ method, equally, does not refer to any particular type of movement – it is nothing to do with how hard a movement is, or how straight, or how much it relies on muscles. These false views have grown up over the years, centuries even, but contradict the original theories of Tao - that knowledge is already a massive potential waiting within a person, and is accessed, achieved through insight and enlightenment, not ‘put in’ to us by any means – certainly not by copying other people’s movements. One of the very great mis-appointments in martial arts has been that ‘enlightenment’ is something incredibly mystical and almost beyond human understanding. However, enlightenment simply means casting light on to a thing – finally achieving a clear view.

‘External’ actually refers to the theory that martial art’s essence can somehow be learned from the ‘outside in’, by slavishly copying the moves of another person over and over until they match that other person’s ‘form’ as exactly as possible. That process does not give a person a deep insight or practical skill – it just cripples a person’s free flowing ability – the very ability which should have been the true heart of his martial arts. Copying fixed form leads further and further away from internal knowledge – either in martial arts, or any other area.

Your style is unique – you can not copy it from anyone. Only you can bring it out of you, and that is internal method martial arts. A true teacher guides that process in you. A false teacher cripples that process by installing his own method in to your system. The method has to be correct – even if it begins with fixed training methods, diligently performed – still, it will be leading to free expression. A good guide, or teacher, teaches you how to learn, not what to learn. The methods and forms should simply be pieces of physical technology designed to allow your body to learn via exploration and natural unfolding of ability.

Essence, in martial arts, means movements that are performed freely, without hesitation, with explosive power. To achieve that we need to strip away pointless form – either physical or mental - not add it.

Each person is already a master of movement – each person’s way of moving is already mastered over long years. It is that mastery of ineffective movement that needs to be stripped away. This idea is often misunderstood as meaning that one should not learn techniques off others, but that is not what it means. Unfortunately, it is pot luck who we learn off, so some may teach a way that leads to free expression, while others teach a way that limits. At first, both methods may be strict, and teach fixed ways, so it can be hard to tell. The only way to know is if you improve rapidly via diligent training and hard thinking. If progress ceases, then find new ways, new avenues for your intuitive progress to explore your potential.

We believe that the false interpretations of internal and external have been a terrible blunder, and that this mis-understanding has consequently hindered countless people in achieving their true potential. People try to achieve an understanding of martial arts just by copying other people – but that is not possible. Copying movements does not lead to any understanding – and worse, it imprisons a body in routine, and worse than that, it imprisons the body in someone else’s routine.

Understanding can mean a number of things. For the body, it usually refers to physical knowledge – i.e. the physical sense of timing, movement, power generation, thinking skin, that develops via correct training methods. For the mind, understanding in martial arts, contrary to perceived wisdom, is often a matter of stripping away false information, rather than adding new information. That which is true is always a smaller affair than that which is false. For every simply true idea there will be a myriad of complex falsehoods obscuring it. Generally, martial artists appoint an expectation that understanding martial arts is based on knowing more, whereas, it is usually a matter of perceiving what is false and stripping it away to leave the plainly true.

Perceive via intuition that which is plainly true. Reject with courage that which is plainly wrong.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Water-quan...

I am very sick of hearing that.... I am sick of hearing that as well. I am not impressed by Taiji, and I have seen the highest level.
No, you have not "seen the highest level".. well, it's possible that you may have, but lack the awareness to comprehend it.. and, certainly, you have not had direct experience with the "highest level", or we wouldn't be having this conversation..

There are many reasons for this, but regardless of them, real strides forward in martial arts come when people begin working within the realm of their actual physical ability, rather than always waiting for a secret, mystical skill to evolve.I'm not waiting for anything or anyone, my training is making strides "internally", regardless of your "beliefs" or opinions.. it's not "a secret, mystical skill", it's very real to those with the ability to comprehend.. there is no real separation internal/external.. it's just that people such as yourself have missed the point for so long that it must be reinforced through focused discipline.. "internal" arts seek to refine and utilize the energies that power the muscles, tendons and ligaments.. it goes beyond brute force. Internal arts study mechanics and balance to a degree that is directly usable in combat, not just "theory"..

You are correct, however, the knowledge is within, waiting to revealed to those willing to see.. while we each use differing tools to gain our own enlightenments, that enlightenment is valid for the ones that gain it.. i have chosen the tool of Taiji for assistance in discovering what is "within".. you, obviously, have chosen another path.. i have no issue with the path you choose, it is your choice.. odd, isn't it, that given the freedom of choice.. some people would deny the benefits of someone else's choices simply because they don't understand it.. Personally, i think it's great that your path satisfies your needs.. i also think it's sad that you feel the need to disrespect the paths of others..

Ther's no "mystical" energies in Taiji, it's all quite scientific.. well-grounded in practical knowledge.. it's only mystical to those that refuse to believe that there may be more to it than their own experiences have revealed..

Oh, and i hope your "illness" gets better.. i hear that the cure is an open mind.. and practical knowledge..

Be well..

[cjurakpt]

It is a nuance of pushing that most people overlook, anyhow.. but in an active dynamic contest, being able to unbalance the opponent will cause them to utilize the core muscles for balance rather than protecting organs/internal structure.. less "power" is needed to do serious damage and the likely result is a hurt fighter that is falling.

it's an interesting perspective, but I'm not so sure that I agree with it; I'm not sure that I disagree with it either, so let's discuss it

disturbance of balance in the body is sensed through the interraction of three systems: the proprioceptive, the viisual and the vestibular, occurring in that order in terms of which system responds first to perturbations of the center of gravity towards the boundary of the base of support; so the proprioceptors get the info first, then the visual, then the vestibular (inner ear); interestingly, the last is where most people think balance is actually handled first - actually, it's the slowest, because it requires fluid to shift, which has to overcome inertia, which occurs much more slowly than the joint receptors sense a change in position, or than the vsual system detects a change of the eyes relative to the horizontal (there is less of a delay between the propriceptors and the visual system, which is why many people can have screwed up proprioceptor input and do just fine for years, decades even - and then when their vision goes, they are totally screwed - which is why I believe TCC has been clinically shown to reduce falls in the elderly - it retrains their proprioceptors)

so, the system that we are working with push hands is obviously the proprioceptive system (so when you close your eyes to "impress" someone about how well you can push, I think it's cheating - you actually are screening out visual info that's coming in slower anyway...); within this, there are three basic strategies that have been identified as mediating balance: and Ankle Strategy (AS), a hip strategy (HS) and a stepping strategy (SS); the AS occurs instantaneously and makes numerous quick corrections constantly; it is the most efficient, because it corrects you while on a shortlever arm - that is, before you are too far out, it pulls you back in - very efficent, and doesn't look like anything happened (and I believe that this is the scientific exlanation of effective "rooting" - a highly evolved ankle strategy); the HS occurs if your AS fails: the force coming in is too strong, or your AS doesn't work bec. the ankle proprioceptors are screwed up (anyone with chronic ankle sprains, for example); you then use a HS, which looks like when you see someone trying to maintain balance on a patch of ice - the hips shoot out or back - the problem with this strategy is that it's very prone to overcorrection, and is not very efficient because it's using long levers and larger muscle groups; finally, the SS is when the HS fails, and you have to step to stay upright, which is fine, but of course is less efficient;

now, as far as core postural muscles: if using an AS to correct, these will not be employed for the balance correction all that much; for a HS and a SS, of course they will come into play more; and certainly, when you unbalance someone, they will correct with a HS or a SS, since if they used an AS effectively, they wouldn't have to move; however, I am not so sure that the core muscles contractions used to maintain an upright position are going to "expose" anything to greater damage; unless you are talking about the difference between an agonist isometric bracing compared to what might be a more phasic agonist / antagonist force couple, but again, I don't know if that's going to make all that much of a difference unless you time the shot perfectly to when the abs were relaxing while the extensors were firing - but that's on the order of milisecnds; also, as far as damage, you could get a shot off on someone who isn't doing any contraction of the core muscles: you slip in a shot that they didn't know was coming, so they're not bracing at all;

I think that simply put, if someone is busy correcting for one type of force, your push, and you hit them as they are going down, they won't be able to correct for the second force at all, and it might even "distract" the system from properly correcting for the initial disturbance; this could cause the postural to lose all vertical integrity and compromise their ability to fall well to boot; so in that regards, it certainly makes sense; but I have a hard time buying that it necesarilly exposes the internal organs to any more damage per se because of the way the core muscles fire...

just some food for thought...

[cjurakpt]

I am sick of hearing that as well. I am not impressed by Taiji, and I have seen the highest level.

out of curiosity, who was it that demonstrated this (unsucessfully) to you, and what in your mind qualified it as "highest level"? for example, you can talk about someone in a "real" fight using taiji and winning, you could talk about someone entering NHB MMA using taiji and winning, you could talk about someone doing push-hands, or you could talk about pure freedom of movement via personal expression / manifestation of the form: these are all diffferent things, influencing each other in different ways, not necessarilly mutually dependent (e.g. - the latter two can be very "high level" and the person could still get creamed in a "real" or NHB rules fight)

my point is simply that the term "highest level" is very subjective, can never be truly quantified, and therefore, in my opinion, is best left unused, except to say in regards to one's own personal experience and needs...therefore, it can be used neither to build up or tear down...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi cjurakpt: Whew!! now that was a nice dissertation.. while i lack the exposure to reply in such precise terms.. i can say that from practical experience whenever i am dynamically stable and take a good shot, it is relatively easy to absorb.. but, as my mentor manipulates me into unstable postures, the same shot has much more effect.. specifically, a liver shot is absorbed by the tightened muscles over it, when stable.. but, the same muscles diverted to balance correction, lets a bit more force impact the liver.. simply put, it hurts more.. a lot more...

While a detailed analysis of physiology is beneficial before and after a match, during the match it is not a consideration.. i am not making corrections through detailed analysis of the situation, i must already understand the issues and have trained to compensate "naturally"..

If i have used incorrect terms, i apologize.. it is my lack of exposure to precise medical terminology.. but, i know what i feel and i try to share it in terms that make sense to me.. i appreciate your contribution of detail and analysis, it helps in my own understanding of the situation..

Be well..

[Water-quan]

Greetings..

Water-quan...

No, you have not "seen the highest level".. well, it's possible that you may have, but lack the awareness to comprehend it.. and, certainly, you have not had direct experience with the "highest level", or we wouldn't be having this conversation..
I'm not waiting for anything or anyone, my training is making strides "internally", regardless of your "beliefs" or opinions.. it's not "a secret, mystical skill", it's very real to those with the ability to comprehend.. there is no real separation internal/external.. it's just that people such as yourself have missed the point for so long that it must be reinforced through focused discipline.. "internal" arts seek to refine and utilize the energies that power the muscles, tendons and ligaments.. it goes beyond brute force. Internal arts study mechanics and balance to a degree that is directly usable in combat, not just "theory"..

You are correct, however, the knowledge is within, waiting to revealed to those willing to see.. while we each use differing tools to gain our own enlightenments, that enlightenment is valid for the ones that gain it.. i have chosen the tool of Taiji for assistance in discovering what is "within".. you, obviously, have chosen another path.. i have no issue with the path you choose, it is your choice.. odd, isn't it, that given the freedom of choice.. some people would deny the benefits of someone else's choices simply because they don't understand it.. Personally, i think it's great that your path satisfies your needs.. i also think it's sad that you feel the need to disrespect the paths of others..

Ther's no "mystical" energies in Taiji, it's all quite scientific.. well-grounded in practical knowledge.. it's only mystical to those that refuse to believe that there may be more to it than their own experiences have revealed..

Oh, and i hope your "illness" gets better.. i hear that the cure is an open mind.. and practical knowledge..

Be well..


Thank you for your kind sharing of information. All the best in your training.

[Water-quan]

out of curiosity, who was it that demonstrated this (unsucessfully) to you, and what in your mind qualified it as "highest level"? for example, you can talk about someone in a "real" fight using taiji and winning, you could talk about someone entering NHB MMA using taiji and winning, you could talk about someone doing push-hands, or you could talk about pure freedom of movement via personal expression / manifestation of the form: these are all diffferent things, influencing each other in different ways, not necessarilly mutually dependent (e.g. - the latter two can be very "high level" and the person could still get creamed in a "real" or NHB rules fight)

my point is simply that the term "highest level" is very subjective, can never be truly quantified, and therefore, in my opinion, is best left unused, except to say in regards to one's own personal experience and needs...therefore, it can be used neither to build up or tear down...

Then let's say, in my experience.

[cjurakpt]

while i lack the exposure to reply in such precise terms.. i can say that from practical experience whenever i am dynamically stable and take a good shot, it is relatively easy to absorb.. but, as my mentor manipulates me into unstable postures, the same shot has much more effect.. specifically, a liver shot is absorbed by the tightened muscles over it, when stable.. but, the same muscles diverted to balance correction, lets a bit more force impact the liver.. simply put, it hurts more.. a lot more.....
ok, that sounds reasonable - but again, I am not so sure it has to do with the muscles being "busy" doing other stuff - maybe it's that when you are balanced, you can absorb the impact and redirect the kinetic force more effectively than when you are out of center, so it stays more local and thus hurts more? it might even have more to do with the CTS being able to function along the lines of tensegrity principles when you are balanced versus not being able to when you are not; an interesting correlation is that some osteiopaths (John Upledger in particular) say that when you have physical trauma, the degree to which it "stays" in the body is dependent on your mood at the time of impact - perhpas the same could be said for the degree of balance physically you have as wel...again, I am not disagreeing with your perception, nor even saying that I think you are incorrect, just questioning the mechanism you describe...



While a detailed analysis of physiology is beneficial before and after a match, during the match it is not a consideration.. i am not making corrections through detailed analysis of the situation, i must already understand the issues and have trained to compensate "naturally"....
of course - we are doing a post facto analysis, so to speak - you'd have to be pretty good to do it while it was happening (sort of like the way they used to engage in witty reparte while dueling in those old movies like "Scaramouche")


If i have used incorrect terms, i apologize.. it is my lack of exposure to precise medical terminology.. but, i know what i feel and i try to share it in terms that make sense to me.. i appreciate your contribution of detail and analysis, it helps in my own understanding of the situation....
the info I cite is based on several decades worth of experimentation with people using balance platforms and various ways of blocking the ability of one or more of the various types of balance mediators; I can easily give you plenty of references if you wish - the material per se is not too complex, just takes a little time to get familiar with the terminology - some of it is actually quite fascinating, if you like that sort of thing...

[cjurakpt]

Then let's say, in my experience.

ok - that answers paragraph #2; any reason in particular you didn't answer the first paragraph of my post?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: I would be very appreciative of more references.. thanks in advance.. you can PM the refs if you choose, but.. i would like to think others might benefit as well..

Be well..

[Water-quan]

ok - that answers paragraph #2; any reason in particular you didn't answer the first paragraph of my post?

Obviously.

[cjurakpt]

Obviously.

why won't you answer the question?

[cjurakpt]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: I would be very appreciative of more references.. thanks in advance.. you can PM the refs if you choose, but.. i would like to think others might benefit as well..

Be well..

if you Google L. M. Nashner, you'll get a lot of stuff on postural control - he's one of the old-time gurus in the field; the other big names are Anne Shumway-Cook & Fay Horak, same thing, lots of stuff on Google; for the taichi and balance research, the guy who's done most of it is Steven L. Wolf, PT - not so much on Google, but if you do a Medline search, it should bring up article's he's authored
also, Googling "postural control" will give you several good resources

if I find more specific stuff, I'll post it;

[Water-quan]

why won't you answer the question?


Well, do you go around naming people saying "I don't rate such and such a person" publicly? I'd rather find the benefits of people, and the problems in styles - it's not personal, just martial arts investigation.

When people start saying "you obviously know nothing" just because I don't agree with them, well, it doesn't make any difference to me what they think. I train happily with Taiji or Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do... because I don't slag off people, just question method.

Besides, sometimes we rate people highly compared to some, but then not compared to others. The only people I feel comfortable calling by name are the people who appear to be actual, out and out frauds making outrageous claims - like so called "Shaolin" Wah Nam who can burst an MMA fighters internal organs open with a light touch.

[cjurakpt]

Well, do you go around naming people saying "I don't rate such and such a person" publicly? I'd rather find the benefits of people, and the problems in styles - it's not personal, just martial arts investigation.

When people start saying "you obviously know nothing" just because I don't agree with them, well, it doesn't make any difference to me what they think. I train happily with Taiji or Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do... because I don't slag off people, just question method.

Besides, sometimes we rate people highly compared to some, but then not compared to others. The only people I feel comfortable calling by name are the people who appear to be actual, out and out frauds making outrageous claims - like so called "Shaolin" Wah Nam who can burst an MMA fighters internal organs open with a light touch.

fair enough - so, without naming names, is it possible to delineate the style and / or characteristics of the person / people in question, in terms of what they attempted on you, how it didn't live up to your expectations, etc.?

I am asking this not to try to bait you - in fact, I am inclined to agree pretty much entirely with your credo posted earlier in regards to the internal / external dichotomy - I have posted elsewhere that I think this is an articficial division created by "internalists" in order to explain why they can't fight that well; this is with all due respect to TC Bob, who's opinion I also respect despite the fact that we might not agree on that point;

I will give an example from my own experience: I recently was introduced by my teacher to a TCC player from another "style", a long-term practitioner, who was considered within his own community to be "high level"; in order to demonstrate our approach, my teacher had me do some very basic pushing with him; as soon as we touched hands, the guy was obviously totally out of his center; furthermore, he wasn't able to do anything to me at all; in my opinion, he was very low level; then he starts talking about how he can't find my center, that it felt like my root was 20 feet into the floor, etc.; now maybe he was playing dumb but I don't think he was; the point is, he was ascribing to me things that I wasn't even doing / trying to do - for example, we don't "root" in that sense when we push - we use a lot more "hin gung" than many other styles I've seen (c.f. - TC Bob - the whole CTS response thing...he he); if he wasn't playing dumb, then I was the greatest pusher he'd ever met (which, if so, is a sad commentary on the state of things in general ;) ) - to him I was "high level"; to me, I'm better than average, but not the best (BTW - best 3 I've "felt" in terms of hands-on: my teacher, Sifu Sat Hon; the late, great Sifu BP Chan; Sifu Sam Chin of I Liq Quan);

I guess what I am asking about is what do people consider to be / not be "high level", in terms of their own expectations versus a general communal concensus? when we say "high level", what do we mean? what does it mean if, in WQ's case, he's touched with someone who is considered "high level", but it didn't impress him? anyway, that's about it...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: Those of notable repute that i have pushed with and been impressed are: WCC Chen, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming (a bit external, but very good), Ms. Cui Yu Li, David Chin (a bit external but extremely powerful with little effort), Wei Lun Huang.. apologies if i've overlooked anyone.. less known, Master Wong and his senior student Jeff R. (both have the real deal, spooky good stuff)..

The most impressive qualities are the relaxed and natural movements, some of their advice is: don't reach, don't try to make openings, they will occur naturally; respond immediately to stimulus, don't let it mature into the opponent's advantage; discard "clever technique", the principles work; study human nature, physiology, and physics; understand "central equilibrium"; Understand Connective Tissue and Tensegrity... practice, "invest in loss", and.. always respect the opponent..

I have seen a few people with "the real deal" (no, not "magic").. people with such skill at listening and adhering that as i initiated probings or intentions their active Peng returned the energy to me, causing me to push myself away from them.. they were so comfortable with combat situations that their natural and relaxed attacks had no appearance or feeling of aggression, the deception was so obvious that i simply overlooked it.. like a friend putting his hand on your shoulder..

One of the more profound lessons i have had was in finding my natural power/speed.. have someone stand behind you and toss one of those squishy weighted balls (5-6" dia. and 5-6 lbs) over your head so that they drop in front of you at arm's length.. as they drop just reach out and grab them.. this is a lesson in your natural motion.. then, try to hit them as hard as you can.. the difference in accuracy will amaze you.. the harder we "try" the more we miss..

Your reference to "hin gung" is unfamiliar to me, but.. we practice "dynamic rooting".. one practice that is particularly useful is to stand next to a wall and apply a moderate amount of "pressing" pressure with both hands.. then, move around but maintain the same constant amount of pressure.. after a while, do this with a partner, have them hold a bow-stance and apply pressure to their torso, then.. move around maintaining the same constant amount of pressure.. both players benefit..

As you say, the CTS is a remarkable system.. it is a valuable tool to have in your arsenal..

Be well..

[Water-quan]

Well, I want to re-say what I said. I have seen met and trained with many people, from many different styles, and in every style there is someone who is very good, just as powerful as everyone else of any other system who is also very good - outstanding indivduals, regardless of style.

If I have a problem with Taiji, it's that it's long winded and crippling to all the necessary, natural attributes of a fighter - also really bad for health. But, that's just my experience.