Ground fighting

[drleungjohn]

Just curious-how many people who do"groundfighting" actually practice on concrete-?

While I have great respect for it,I see it as a feeling game between the two people and the ground as the 3rd part of the triangle-BUT-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

[t_niehoff]

Just curious-how many people who do"groundfighting" actually practice on concrete-?

While I have great respect for it,I see it as a feeling game between the two people and the ground as the 3rd part of the triangle-BUT-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

What would be the point of training on concrete?

Here's a more important question: what is your experience groundfighting? Because if you don't have some siognificant experience with it, you are just speculating.

[leejunfan]

What would be the point of training on concrete?

Here's a more important question: what is your experience groundfighting? Because if you don't have some siognificant experience with it, you are just speculating.

Terrence... I can answer that.

At our school we train with concrete in mind. I personally have grappled on concrete many times and it's much different then mats. Concrete is unforgiving. Rocks, glass and so on..... it makes you want to stay on your feet. I fought someone on the ground back in the 80's... I submitted him by locking him up then smashing his head repeatedly on the ground. His head was only about 1 to 2 inches from the ground.... but that's all it took.

So the point of training on concrete is...(drum roll please) because THAT's where a grappler will be in a street fight.

[Knifefighter]

What would be the point of training on concrete?

I have trained groundfighting on concrete because there are things one needs to know about what will happen if you end up there... and it is also interesting to go against guys who think they can be good on the ground without utilizing mats.

There are a few things (although, not that many) that are different from training on mats. The only huge consideration is the head slamming issue. You can really take advantage of the mount with this in mind. At the same time it's important to keep this issue in mind when you guard someone up or work upper body submissions from the guard. Another issue, although most people don't usually notice it until later, is missing a punch from the mount or inside the guard and hitting the ground with your fist.

One thing about the guys who say they train on concrete only... they are never any good at ground fighting (or throws) because they can't train as comprehensively as those who utilze mats. The person who trains groundfighting, takedowns, and throws on mats will usually destroy the person who trains his stuff only on concrete if the fight goes to the ground.

People who don't utilize mats are usually relatively easy to take to the ground because they are not used to defending full on takedown attacks from people who are knowledgeable of takedowns.

[sunfist]

To me, grappling becomes a lot more martial once you have a hard surface factored in, a good sweep can be a fight ender rather than just a positional reversal.

But why is this in the wing chun section, and due to such, how can this thread not end badly?

[Knifefighter]

I fought someone on the ground back in the 80's... I submitted him by locking him up then smashing his head repeatedly on the ground.

1- How do you submit somone in a real fight?

2- How do you submit someone by knocking his head into the ground?

[Knifefighter]

To me, grappling becomes a lot more martial once you have a hard surface factored in, a good sweep can be a fight ender rather than just a positional reversal.

What sweep from the ground would end the fight?

[sunfist]

Anything where they go down on their head I figure. Leg over arm sweep as an example. Youd probably need the opponent at least semi-standing to get the momentum though.

[t_niehoff]

In my view (after only four years of ground training), when on the ground, the predicate skill upon which everything else depends is positional control. Can you bite, poke the eyes, etc.? Sure -- if you have positional control (like the mount). But you won't be able to do it (unless the guy's is a stooge) without positional control. Want to submit the guy or bang his head against the ground? What permits that? Positional control.

But that is not an easy skill to develop. The only way to develop (not just learn) that predicate skill is by lots and lots of rolling against good people with that in mind. We need to be able to move effectively while on the ground, know how to escape when in an inferior position and seek positional superiority, how once we get it how to maintain it, the oportunities that open up along the way and when we get it, etc. All of that takes a lot of rolling against good people. And if you try to get that training while on concrete, you'll just end up injured (and not training).

For me, mats are like any other form of safety/protective equipment (wearing a cup or mouthpiece, for example)-- they are there to minimize injuries and permit us to train realistically. If I do judo, do I need to actually throw people on concrete to grasp that the mat helps to protect them from injury? Do I need to take off my cup to grasp that I don't want to take a shot to the boys?

[leejunfan]

1- How do you submit somone in a real fight?

2- How do you submit someone by knocking his head into the ground?

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. Slam your knee, elbow, head or whatever on concrete as hard as you do on mats and the difference is noticable to say the least. I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW). My instructor is a fantastic grappler and trains MMA fighters. He also trains Law Enforcement and more so he has his eye on the ring and the street.

To answer the questions above. The guy couldn't move to defend his head hitting the ground so after about 5 knocks on the noggin he screamed "OK OK STOP!" and the fight was over. aka...submission;)


But you won't be able to do it (unless the guy's is a stooge) without positional control. Want to submit the guy or bang his head against the ground? What permits that? Positional control.


I couldn't agree more. Our teacher stresses position so much I hear it in my sleep. Good post my friend.


For me, mats are like any other form of safety/protective equipment (wearing a cup or mouthpiece, for example)-- they are there to minimize injuries and permit us to train realistically.

I agree with you to a point. Safety eqiupment prolongs the training but can also train one to take more abuse then they have to because of that protection. Take Kali for example. The difference between 99% of the standard Kali tournements and let's say ummm..... the Dog Brothers (you knew this was coming Terrence :D ) is that the guys with the tons of padding just race in swinging wildly and never feel the impact of the stick.... so it becomes more like a point sparring tournement. But the Dog Brothers?.... well they can really feel the sticks because they don't wear much protection.

Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete.

Peace.

Good stuff everyone... very productive :)

[Knifefighter]

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact.

B.S. False sense of security. LOL... the guys who have the false sense of security are the people who think this line of cr@p.

Grapplers know exactly the damage that happens when you get slammed because they do it all the time. They also know how to take advantage of this against an opponent who is not used to taking full force throws to the ground.

Not to mention the fact that hitting your knee or elbow on a hard surface in a real fight will not even be noticed until at least an hour or two after a fight.



To answer the questions above. The guy couldn't move to defend his head hitting the ground so after about 5 knocks on the noggin he screamed "OK OK STOP!" and the fight was over. aka...submission;)

You slammed a guy's head into the concrete 5 times and he was still conscious to say "OK, stop"?

Um... OK.



My instructor is a fantastic grappler and trains MMA fighters. He also trains Law Enforcement and more so he has his eye on the ring and the street.

Really... who is this?
Which grappling/MMA trainer are you working grappling with?


I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW).

How can you be a student of grappling when you don't train with grapplers?

[leejunfan]

knifefighter... I'm not poking fun at you man... really I'm not... but you seriously need to work on your reading skills and not be so quick to jump on everyones ass. My posts are not hostile...... I'm not insulting anyone.... and I'm trying to hear boths sides. You on the other hand seem to want nothing more then to tell everyone here how wrong they are and how right you are. Let me respond to your post above.


B.S. False sense of security. LOL... the guys who have the false sense of security are the people who think this line of cr@p.



I'll agree with you to a point. I wasn't saying that the concrete is a fight finisher... just saying the injuries are more intense. Don't read too much into what I said and try to be less hostile :p


You slammed a guy's head into the concrete 5 times and he was still conscious to say "OK, stop"?

Um... OK.


Did you miss the part where his head was only an inch or two off the ground? Hard to do a lot of damage when we're both on the ground, he's tied up.... I'm partially tied up with my hand on the back of his head pushing it into the concrete. Was I trying to cave his head in?.... was I trying to kill the guy? was I trying to just hurt him enough to end the fight?..... hmmm.... 1 to 2 inches...... that's all... and not much leverage. Again...... you jumped too quick on this one.


Really... who is this?
Which grappling/MMA trainer are you working grappling with?


We train with Guru Kevin Seaman once a month. My partner Erik is his student and holds a grappling class every week. Kevin couches a team, lead by his son, and they are kicking major ass. Check them out at http://www.myspace.com/erikcharles


Quote:
I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW).

How can you be a student of grappling when you don't train with grapplers?


You're a Grappler and don't know the word Crappler? Crappling is like the joke word for crappy grappling on Bullshido...... don't you frequent that forum? ;)

Anyway, I'm not here to get into a flame war with you or anyone because quite frankly I don't seek your approval. I'll stand back and lurk a little. Have fun with the debate.

[t_niehoff]

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. Slam your knee, elbow, head or whatever on concrete as hard as you do on mats and the difference is noticable to say the least.


In my view, mats don't give a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. No grappler I know of has this false sense of reality. Only people who don't train realisically have a false sense of reality IME.



I couldn't agree more. Our teacher stresses position so much I hear it in my sleep. Good post my friend.


But WCK is a "complete art"! ;)



I agree with you to a point. Safety eqiupment prolongs the training but can also train one to take more abuse then they have to because of that protection. Take Kali for example. The difference between 99% of the standard Kali tournements and let's say ummm..... the Dog Brothers (you knew this was coming Terrence :D ) is that the guys with the tons of padding just race in swinging wildly and never feel the impact of the stick.... so it becomes more like a point sparring tournement. But the Dog Brothers?.... well they can really feel the sticks because they don't wear much protection.


It's not the same thing in my view. I think the whole notion that good grapplers just don't appreciate the reality of the ground (like cement or broken glass or whatever) is a POV from people who have no experience with good groundfighters/grapplers. They know. The problem is that people without that experience mistake tournament or even NHB ground tactics with street tactics. The physical skills are the same, how they are used (the tactics) change with the situation.



Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete.


If you are asking will I try to use the environment to my advantage -- of course. Just like if I have you trapped, standing up against a wall, I'll use that too. Maybe I'd try to smash your head into it. Do I need to train with real concrete walls to figure that smashing heads into concrette walls might work? ;)

[Knifefighter]

I'll agree with you to a point. I wasn't saying that the concrete is a fight finisher... just saying the injuries are more intense.

No, what you were saying is that grapplers don't understand the implications of fighting on hard surfaces... someone with a basic understanding of grappling who had worked with accomplished grapplers would know that is not true.

[/QUOTE]
You're a Grappler and don't know the word Crappler? Crappling is like the joke word for crappy grappling on Bullshido...... don't you frequent that forum? ;)[/QUOTE]

No, I already waste way too much time here. I don't have time to screw around other places too.


Anyway, I'm not here to get into a flame war with you or anyone because quite frankly I don't seek your approval.

I think you are the classic example of the theoretical TMA non-fighter who espouses theories but never actaully tries them out for real against other skilled opponents.

[unkokusai]

-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

Which is why everyone should train in wrestling.

[AndrewS]

If you are asking will I try to use the environment to my advantage -- of course. Just like if I have you trapped, standing up against a wall, I'll use that too. Maybe I'd try to smash your head into it. Do I need to train with real concrete walls to figure that smashing heads into concrette walls might work?

Well, now that you mention it. . .

;-)

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

There's a great school on Long Island I dropped into where a bunch of NYPD train- they had a d*mn car in the space, padded on the dangerous bits, for teaching both carjacking defensive scenarios and LEO skills for extracting people from vehicles.

There are a lot of different rings out there.

Andrew

[leejunfan]

knifefighter,

Ya know...... I'm nice...respectful even.... and yet you still want to be a ****.

You have the right to your opinion. You can call me whatever you wish. I honestly don't give a crap. All you ever do is come here and rip on TMA. Why waste your time? Are you THAT lonely and bored that you can't find a more productive place to use your time?

[Knifefighter]

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

Exactly...
Of course the "concrete" guys will tell you it doesn't count because it is padded and they only train on hard surfaces.

[unkokusai]

One thing about the guys who say they train on concrete only... they are never any good at ground fighting (or throws) because they can't train as comprehensively as those who utilze mats. The person who trains groundfighting, takedowns, and throws on mats will usually destroy the person who trains his stuff only on concrete if the fight goes to the ground.

People who don't utilize mats are usually relatively easy to take to the ground because they are not used to defending full on takedown attacks from people who are knowledgeable of takedowns.

Exactly right!

[unkokusai]

Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact.




No, they don't.

[Knifefighter]

knifefighter,

Ya know...... I'm nice...respectful even.... and yet you still want to be a ****.

You have the right to your opinion. You can call me whatever you wish. I honestly don't give a crap. All you ever do is come here and rip on TMA. Why waste your time? Are you THAT lonely and bored that you can't find a more productive place to use your time?

Why am I ripping on you?

Because you go on an on about how your fighting looks like your training. You say you are a student of grappling, yet you make sweeping and misinformed generalizations about grappling and groundfighting.

You talk about Terrence and I arguing the same old tired arguments, so I offer a new idea. Show us clips of how your fighting and training are similar.

Instead, you make a big deal about seeing MY fighting clips, although I told you they look pretty much like most other MMA fighting and training.

Then I show you the clips and guess what? Suddendly you are not a "competitive" fighter and there is no evidence of you even sparring, let alone fighting.

Quite hypocritcal, don't you think?

[t_niehoff]

Well, now that you mention it. . .

;-)

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

There's a great school on Long Island I dropped into where a bunch of NYPD train- they had a d*mn car in the space, padded on the dangerous bits, for teaching both carjacking defensive scenarios and LEO skills for extracting people from vehicles.

There are a lot of different rings out there.

Andrew

I can't argue with you and I do see the usefulness of spending some time with this sort of training, especially if you are going to "specialize" in fighting in some sort of specific environment, from NYPD to cage fighters, etc. That being said, I think for most people its more productive and time-efficient ( big concern of mine) to focus on more generalized (basic fundamental skills) realistic training with the mindset of seizing any opportunity, environmental or otherwise. However, I do also see how occassionally varying the environment, setting, etc. during training can be useful.

[leejunfan]

Why am I ripping on you?

Because you go on an on about how your fighting looks like your training.

Then you make a big deal about seeing MY fighting clips, although I told you they look pretty like all other MMA fighting and training.

Then I show you the clips and guess what? Suddendly you are not a "competitive" fighter and there is no evidence of you even sparring, let alone fighting.

Quite hypocritcal, don't you think?

hey knifefighter...did I ever claim to presently be a competitive fighter? There is evidence of me light sparring.... you haven't seen it? I don't video tape myself training or sparring much but there is a clip out there. If you've seen my clips then you must have seen it.

yes... train how you fight... I agree... which is why we train hard at our school. Do I have video of our "fights"?.... no...... will I?.... I already said I'd pony them up when I do. I made a big deal about seeing your clips? WOW..... a person asks to see something and it's a big deal? You got to get out more man.

Like I said..... anyone who has seen me spar knows I don't "look" like a WCK guy. I actually took heat from few WCK people because I cross train. Do I care what they think?..... or you? nope.... not one bit.

You constantly make a big deal out of every thread and choose to rip on ANYONE who challenges your preaching in the slightest. But again I ask..... why are you here? Go post on an MMA forum.... you'll learn more. You're not going to change anyone here, you'd be more productive talking to a wall.

I don't hate ya man. I don't even dislike you. I just think you need to relax little. Good luck with this thread guys... in the words of sunfist "how can this thread not end badly?":D

PS: Terrence... you're last post.... is pretty much how I feel. Maybe I came across wrong but... in a nutshell you nailed it. Thanks.

[AndrewS]

That being said, I think for most people its more productive and time-efficient ( big concern of mine) to focus on more generalized (basic fundamental skills) realistic training with the mindset of seizing any opportunity, environmental or otherwise. However, I do also see how occassionally varying the environment, setting, etc. during training can be useful.

A thought-

from a motor learning perspective, training a skill to be used under unstable conditions is best achieved under unstable conditions (i.e just doing reps is of limited utility).

I do a lot drilling on controlling range and moving into an advantageous position- what I call stalking drills- working on what in boxing is called cutting off the ring (and escaping someone trying to do that to me)- setting up my entry.

I find that my stick work has contributed significantly to developing this (as a have a number of other folks)- working a variation on said skill, but not exactly the same skill.

I wonder if regularly varying the environment (obstacles, etc) as part of this sort of training would provide a similar carryover (aside from real world self-defense considerations).


Just a thought.

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

And to piggy-back, it may also help us from the adaptation problem (your body getting too used to the same sort of stresses which slows growth) by doing the same sort of exercise (same skill set, for example) in a different way (changing the environment).

Thanks for getting me thinking. :)

[Liddel]

Ive rolled with a grappling friend trying to pick up tips etc for fighting on the ground - my experience is limited. Every time we were on hard wooden floors.

We were starting from our knees so for the sake of this discussion it was a little different than whats been said. No takedowns sweeps etc.

I could def see the bennifit of the hardwood floors, training part on the hardwood and having mats for other training senarios seemed like a logical idea. :rolleyes:

The hardwood floor would certainly harden your body after a while of exposure, more so than training on mats all the time. But so would playing Rugby :D

Even to a grappling laymen its easy to see that training on concrete would have its disadvantages in terms of training variety, what you can and cant train for without hurtin yourself or others :o

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete." (leejunfan/Anthony)


***PERFECT, Anthony...and I got your point about CRAPLERS long before you had to explain it...as well as getting the fact that the guy's head was probably only an inch or two off the ground (before you were trolled...eh...I mean...asked...to explain it). Been there, done that myself once, actually.

But slightly different situation: Real fight...it went to the ground (on concrete)...I was full mounted on his back...punching him in the back of the head...and therefore his face was being mashed into the concrete as well as taking punches to the back of the head.

After about 3-4 shots and he had had enough...and asked out, aka...submission.

Good posts, Anthony - and good thread.:cool: ;)

[AndrewS]

Terence,

you're welcome, consider it payback for the 'running at the guy with an air shield' punch test of yours which I use on occasion. Please let me know how playing with the idea works for you- it's a hypothesis, so any data is appreciated (but it has the smell of one of those potential 'keepers').

Andrew

P.S. I'm on the run today, but I'd like to start a 'teaching/learning' thread at some point getting into overall approaches, tips, and tricks to learning.

[stricker]

training to use the cage (what to do when your up against it, when to move towards it, when to move away from it) is part of mma-specific training that could really pay off in a real life situation.

i know a lot of wing chun people do the whole slippers on a smooth wooden floor thing, maybe good for training certain things but i bet it would pay off to train different surfaces sometimes, get on an uneven surface in regular shoes, maybe litter some bags etc around then get some real leg sensitivity going :)

i think for groundfighting or any sort of work involving takedowns you really need mats, you just cant get the same mental intent as in a real fight if its just another day at training with your partners. the padding means you can concentrate on learning... doing it without mats would be cool, once youve got some basic skills, but even then like tniehoff says its about balancing your time. learn from experiences on concrete then take that into your regular training on the mat...

[anerlich]

What sweep from the ground would end the fight?

I could see some of the sweeps with opponent standing and driven backwards (standing hook and reap sweeps per Machado terminology) resulting in a heavy impact to the back of the head and possible KO if he didn't keep his chin tucked. Not something you'd want to rely on.

I practice falling, or "ground engagement", on hard surfaces sometimes, just to keep myself honest. Concrete is IMHO a unnecessarily risky proposition because of the abrasion/infection factor. I have no interest in doing more than the occasional bit of groundfighting on hard ground as I have a minor deformity in one of my lumbar vertabrae which makes it stick out more than normal, and I'll be bruising the sucker or worse just about every session.

You train on mats rather than hard concrete for the same reason you spar with gloves and other protective gear - you can get the mileage up and avoid the injuries which interrupt your training. I've heard some people say if you get hit in the head regularly it stops hurting so bad, and that may be, but I've been concussed enough times not to want to experiment further. You can't toughen your brain.

If you want true realism, train in an alley with garbage, broken bottles, used syringes, oil patches, and the like, preferably one with frequent traffic just to keep you on your toes. Good luck with getting insurance for your club.

If you get in a real fight, you should expect to be injured. It doesn't follow that getting injured regularly is necessarily so you know what it's REALLY going to be like. Most of us "soft trainers" have accumulated enough injuries as it is.

The benefits of the "realistic" approach have to outweigh the associated risks. A highly dubious proposition here IMO.

[Wayfaring]

training to use the cage (what to do when your up against it, when to move towards it, when to move away from it) is part of mma-specific training that could really pay off in a real life situation.


I think at least spending a little time working against a cage or wall is recommended in training ground fighting. There's very few realistic environment skirmishes that will not have some element of restricted space or something to pin someone against (unless you get caught cow tipping or something like that).

Against a cage, or a wall, etc. there are different takedown techniques than in the open. The ground and pound game opens up much more against a fixed cage or wall, and the game changes from the top and the bottom.

That is one significant difference in training a sport grappling (gi or no gi) and a realistic environment.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's another reason why I like you're thread, Anthony...because it can morph into other important related topics concerning "streetfighting". You see, I agree with Anerlich's assessment that training on concrete is too risky to be done with any kind of frequency or real time speed and power...

but occasional outdoor training on concrete - without the dangerous throws, sweeps, and shoots actually being "completed", but rather, simulated...can make for a very productive training session that can often be more productive than one on a mat in the school.

And why?

Because you will respect the hard ground more if you occasionally train on it (ie.- at least once a month, let's say)...than if you almost never train on it.

At least that's been my experience.

And here's an example of morphing this kind of training into other related topics: one of the moves that I teach my guys (and we practice regularly, although albeit "simulated" - meaning that the key part of the move is never done full force)...

is to take someone down with what's known in some wrestling circles as a "leg dive"...ie,- one way to do this is a double leg shoot wherein you grab his legs and then you "try to" straighten up - so that he hits the floor and you don't.

I say "try to" because you will go down - but the act of trying to straighten up as you're driving forward (and possibly turning the corner)...and you're driving with your head and shoulder all the while as well as your legs...is that you will have the opportunity to "land" (yes, you will go down)...but you can land with your knee right in his groin.

These things don't become so apparent to the mind's eye if you always train in the gym/school on the mat - because you're not thinking in those terms. And what terms are those? By answering the following questions: "How can I use the ground to end this fight"? "How would I have to land"? "How can I take him down on concrete, for example, while saving my own knees, head, face, etc."?

Always thinking of fighting in terms of "real life" situations as one's top priority is the best way to go, imo.

But needless to say - you need to take those ideas back onto the mats and work them - until the next outdoor class inspires more ideas.

So your idea for this thread is a good one, imo...much better than it's been given credit for. :cool:

[sunfist]

There is no point to training on mats. BJJ was originally designed not to be trained on mats, thats why its just judo without the throws.
Back when the Gracies were first running their gym, they would bash peoples heads into the ground all the time.

[drleungjohn]

Since I asked the question-and haven't had a chance to check this until now-wow!!!

Growing up in NY and Queens-I have seen my share of fights start standing up and yes go to the ground-and when there was a thud-the fight was usually over or just about-I have also seen my share of curb kissing,and it still grosses me out-

ok-first-I hold a brown belt in Judo-so I have had some "groundtime"-next-I have had experience in college with Collegiate level wrestlers who wanted to take down "the kung fu guy"-2 of my students were wrestlers who were interigued with the "stand up" game of WCK and felt that is was an easy mark for take downs-

One joined when I stood him up with an uppercut as he tried a high feint and low dive to shoot my legs-a bloody nose and a believer after that-BUT-He did play havoc with many of the students until they learned how not to be taken down

The other joined because he saw the value of chi sao as a method of getting from one range to hte next w/o taking a shot-he was very helpful in translating standing chi sao into prone/mounted and horizontal body chi sao-

I ask the question because recently I had a "MMA guy" find me and want to "see about WCK",if it was all it was cracked up to be. (You guys know where this is going)--well,I said ok- we stalked each other-circling,flanking etc-he crossed over my dnager zone-I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow-he was done after that--so it got me to thinking about concrete and training-end of story

[Knifefighter]

Since I asked the question-and haven't had a chance to check this until now-wow!!!

Growing up in NY and Queens-I have seen my share of fights start standing up and yes go to the ground-and when there was a thud-the fight was usually over or just about-I have also seen my share of curb kissing,and it still grosses me out-

ok-first-I hold a brown belt in Judo-so I have had some "groundtime"-next-I have had experience in college with Collegiate level wrestlers who wanted to take down "the kung fu guy"-2 of my students were wrestlers who were interigued with the "stand up" game of WCK and felt that is was an easy mark for take downs-

One joined when I stood him up with an uppercut as he tried a high feint and low dive to shoot my legs-a bloody nose and a believer after that-BUT-He did play havoc with many of the students until they learned how not to be taken down

The other joined because he saw the value of chi sao as a method of getting from one range to hte next w/o taking a shot-he was very helpful in translating standing chi sao into prone/mounted and horizontal body chi sao-

I ask the question because recently I had a "MMA guy" find me and want to "see about WCK",if it was all it was cracked up to be. (You guys know where this is going)--well,I said ok- we stalked each other-circling,flanking etc-he crossed over my dnager zone-I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow-he was done after that--so it got me to thinking about concrete and training-end of story

Why is it that the guys who always preface their posts with having had years of experience in (pick one):
a) judo;
b) BJJ;
c) Muay Thai;
d) boxing
never once use a single technique from these significant years of experience in these disciplines in the requisite stories that follow about how they trashed the (pick one):
a) grappler;
b) Muay Thai fighter
c) boxer
d) MMA fighter
????????????

[Mr Punch]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!

:confused:

Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?

[Liddel]

Knifefighter - its only one story for cryin out loud. Ask him, he may have more stories to tell that may suit what you want to hear :o

Plus - does it not make sence that if he has good ground and standup skillz against a good wrestler / ground guy - hed nutralise him with the standup if the op presented itself ???

Oh no thats right a VT guy cant have good standup ???

Sometimes IMO you act like everyone with a ground game is the shiz,
Like thiers no bad grapplers ???

Correct me if im wrong :(

I have experience with using elbows but alas, sometimes the situation just calls for punching....what-u-gunna-do :p

[Water-quan]

There is no point to training on mats. BJJ was originally designed not to be trained on mats, thats why its just judo without the throws.
Back when the Gracies were first running their gym, they would bash peoples heads into the ground all the time.

Well, they must be very silly then, IF that is true. Self defence and health preservation are inseperable in my book, because the first line of defence is keeping yourself healthy and fit and not doing any training methods that damage you. You might as well punch yourself in the face.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Why is it that the guys who always preface their posts with having had years of experience in (pick one):
a) judo;
b) BJJ;
c) Muay Thai;
d) boxing
never once use a single technique from these significant years of experience in these disciplines in the requisite stories that follow about how they trashed the (pick one):
a) grappler;
b) Muay Thai fighter
c) boxer
d) MMA fighter
????????????"


***I DON'T SEE THAT at all in John's post...What I see is a realistic view of what can happen in a fight, ie.- the guy who tries to take the fight to the ground can get the worst of it. It happens. Look how difficult it is for people to take Cro Cop down. Or Liddell. The fact is, real fighting should entail the mindset that you don't want to go to the ground unless you have to (or unless you see an immediate fight-ending possibility if you do).

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

[Knifefighter]

Oh no thats right a VT guy cant have good standup ???

Sure they can... it's just that the situation he described against the single leg is so low percentage technically as to be almost ludicrous... especially from someone with a supposed grappling background who would have more than likely used a higher percentage technique from his arsenal.

[Knifefighter]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!

:confused:

Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?

I am saying he is following the same formula I have seen posted so many times before. Preface your post by stating you have a significant background in the style you supposedly beat, or one closely related. Don't use any techniques from that style in your supposed confrontation when those techniques might have been much higher percentage ones to use.

I believe you have a grappling background... think about this:

I came in with a "baited" TWC entry technique-he grabbed the leg-I slammed my leg down along his outer thigh and twisted over it-ala Hong Kong Chum Kiu first third(or Ba Gua-whatever your preference) with an elbow to the head on the twist(more of a push really)-and he went down and landed on his elbow
What percentage do you think "slamming your leg" on your opponent's outer leg would be against a single leg? I'm guessing if you have much of a background in grappling, you would know how low percentage (if not ludicrous) this type of thing would be against a single leg takedown (more along the lines of what someone who really had no experience with this would theorize about how it might be done). Someone with a significant background in judo would more than likely work a more high percentage move from his background in judo.

[Knifefighter]

***I DON'T SEE THAT at all in John's post...What I see is a realistic view of what can happen in a fight, ie.- the guy who tries to take the fight to the ground can get the worst of it.

Of course someone who wants to close and grapple can get the worst of an encounter. That's a possible and realistic outcome.

What's not realistic is his technical description of what happened. The fact is that grapplers who get stopped going in for takedowns rarely, if ever, get stopped by the techniques he is describing.

If you are buying the technical description of his defense against the single leg, detail to me how that might be done. The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?

And doesn't it seem strange that someone with a grappling background would attempt to do this against the single?


Look how difficult it is for people to take Cro Cop down. Or Liddell.
Look over all of their fights. You won't see a single instance of then doing anything close to what he is describing to stop a single leg.

Also, if you were to watch every instance of a leg takedown getting stopped, I doubt you would find even a single instance of this happening from an upper cut. You will see leg takedown attacks stopped with crosses, knees, sprawls, stuffs, and even jabs... but not uppercuts. You might possibly see an uppercut as part of a counter attack barrage AFTER the leg attack has been stopped, but not to stop it the way he is describing. There are sound technical and biomechanical reasons regarding why this is so- especially against a collegiate level wrestler.

[SevenStar]

OK, normally I'm with you... but I can't see this one KF...

the answer is... because he said he used a WC tech...!

:confused:

Are you saying you don't believe him? Or it's not possible?


I don't think that's what he's getting at. the thing is, if his wc stand up is so hot and wc is what he used to neutralize it, then nobody really gives a hoot is he is a sankyu of above in judo - it has ZERO relevance to his actual story. Yet, for some reason he seems to feel the need to make it clear that he has had some ground related sport training - why?

When I talk about shiai and ring fights, I don't say:

I have 5 years of longfist training and several years of jkd/jun fan. I entered a shiai over the weekend and drew the biggest black belt in my division. We tied up, I off balanced him and threw him with a hard harai goshi. End of story.

My kung fu relevance has zero relevance to the story, so why even mention it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't quite understand what John was getting at either...in the way he described it. (The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?)...

But my comments were aimed at the overall picture regarding going to the ground or not - and if so, how to use the act of going to the ground to your advantage.

And yes, I agree with your comments about using uppercuts only after stopping the takedown, for all intents and purposes....with one exception: stuffing his head as he tries to shoot with one hand while uppercutting with a palm strike or two to his face with the other is one worth exploring. And simultaneously buy time for this by transferring almost all your weight to the leg he's attacking - if it's a single leg. (A TWC move).

Using an open palm instead of the fist gives a slightly different physiological angle than trying to punch him with a closed fist.

[SevenStar]

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

there is always a possibility of anything happening. People tend to take those possibilities though, and magnify them into fear - in this case, making going to the ground taboo. As a bouncer, I've taken things to the ground - both intentionall and non - several times, and have never:

1. rolled over broken glass
2. been gut up by gravel (and I have been on the concrete on the outside of the club)
3. been jumped on by any of his buddies. (it did ALMOST happen ONCE, but I had the guy mounted and postured up when I saw his friend. He hesitated, I guess not knowing if I was gonna swing. While he was waiting and watching me, another bouncer grabbed him)
4. been stabbed - matter of factly, all of the knife incidents I've been involved in have happened while standing.

Naturally, that's not to say that these things cannot happen, only that they do not happen as much as people tend to assume they do.

[SevenStar]

I don't quite understand what John was getting at either...in the way he described it. (The MMA guy supposedly "grabbed the leg"... how does one now slam the leg into the opponent's outer thigh from there?)...


I assumed he meant he stepped with the rear leg and hit him, not the one that was grabbed... I'm not sure how he was able to do that without falling if it was a committed single leg attempt, though...

[Knifefighter]

Too many things can go wrong: He's got a friend in the vicinity. He could pull something out of his pocket while on the ground that you're in no position to see - whereas if it had remained standing - you probably would see it. The terrain is too dangerous because of rocks, glass, rolling into an oncoming car, etc.

Having backup is a definite consideration. However, it works both ways.

As far as pulling a weapon, a weapon is more easily controlled on the ground than it is standing.

LOL @ the rocks, broken glasss, etc. that everyone uses as a reason for not going to the ground. Look outside on your street right now. How much of it is covered in rocks and broken glass?

And you are more likely to run into the path of an oncoming car when maneuvering for posiiton or escaping a fight than you are to roll into its path from groundfighting.

Are there times when going to the ground is the last thing one wants to do... of course, especially if he doens't have much knowledge there.
There are other times when it is the best thing to do... especially if one has expertise there.
As with anything situations dictate specifics.

[t_niehoff]

A few thoughts . . .

In true "self-defense situations" we don't get to pick and choose our fight or how that fight goes down. All we can be is the best prepared we can for whatever comes at us. And for me, that means to assume worst-case scenarios, things like I'm on the ground and mounted - now, how do I deal with that? In a two-on-one situation, what makes me think I'll be standing? My point is that we don't have much control in these situations (if we could control them, we'd probably choose not to be in a fight in the first place!).

Most "WCK for self-defense" people I've met assume best-case scenarios - like they'll be standing in their bi-jong calmly waiting for an attack to use their four gate theory and do a simulataneous block and eye-jab!!

One thing that surprises me, especially in this age of Youtube, etc. where we can actually watch lots of "streetfights" on video, are the erroneous assumptions people make about them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

CHECK THIS OUT...

http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?FID=1&a=219&TID=0

(The thread entitled: MMA GUY PROMOTES WING CHUN).

[Edmund]

I assumed he meant he stepped with the rear leg and hit him, not the one that was grabbed... I'm not sure how he was able to do that without falling if it was a committed single leg attempt, though...

I thought it was describing a harai goshi using the grabbed leg.

[Liddel]

if his wc stand up is so hot and wc is what he used to neutralize it, then nobody really gives a hoot if he is a sankyu or above in judo - it has ZERO relevance to his actual story. Yet, for some reason he seems to feel the need to make it clear that he has had some ground related sport training - why?

Everything comes to bear IMO. To say it has zero relevance is not true.

Ever hear "knowledge is power".
The fact he has experience in a ground related style means he's aware of aspects of the opponents fighting style. This would prepare him mentally as to what the opponent might use right ?

Just because he didnt directly apply his ground game doesnt imply that his experience from the ground made him able to avoid getting to that point in the first place :rolleyes:

This is why professionals in fighting and in other sports watch tapes of the opponents to gauge what habbits they have in thier field -

So perhaps in that situation his Judo made it possible for him to utilise his stand up. :rolleyes:
The devil you know is better than the devil you dont know IMO.

[Knifefighter]

I thought it was describing a harai goshi using the grabbed leg.

You can't do harai goshi if the opponent is holding your leg for a single leg takedown.

[Edmund]

You can't do harai goshi if the opponent is holding your leg for a single leg takedown.

Sure you can. I've had it done on me many times. :)

[Knifefighter]

Sure you can. I've had it done on me many times. :)

Really? How do you do harai goshi when your leg is in between your opponent's legs?

[Edmund]

Really? How do you do harai goshi when your leg is in between your opponent's legs?

You uchi mata in that case but I don't think John specified that it was the case.

[drleungjohn]

Sorry I haven't kept up with this thread especially since I started it!

First-I only included what little knowledge of grappling/groundfighting I have to illustrate the point that I don't have a lot of experience with it-and wouldn't delude or hallucinate that I am good at it-

Second-Terence-way back in post 2-asked what my experience is with it-

Third-Just because I have done some of it-doesn't mean I would be so foolish in a fight to try it against someone who really does it-or says they do-I fight my game my way because I know what I'm doing with it-I play to my strengths-not my weakness
My "personal" MMA includes Tai Chi,Ba Gua,Southern Preying Mantis,Silat,American Boxing and good ole WCK-so my game is to knock people down-not go down with them-

Fourth-no disrespect intended-but I don't do it because I don't like to do it-and I am not good at it-and it doesn't suit me-and for no other reasons-I have no business rolling around on the floor-getting up,being slammed down,wriggling around and trying to get up again-if you haven't noticed-as we get older the floor gets harder and less comfortable

As to my recent altercation-my apolgies for not being specific enough-I write this stuff very late after work and teaching responsibilities-as well as family-so I write at 1 Am usually around there-

I'll try to clarify-

-His right leg was forward at the time-My left leg(TWC Left Side Horse-and I had the slight outside angle)) did a front kick/knee raise as bait-since I faked it before to see a reaction in my comfort range
-He went for it -His right arm circled in a scoop around my lower leg knee as he came forward-
-my first rule of kicking-if they block it or grab it-put it down!-So since I had the outside angle-I immediately slammed my leg and bodyweight down onto the floor but also along the outer edge of his entire right leg-this caused it to buckle-at the same time-he was not completely set and was still coming forward as I dropped my leg and weight-at the same time I used my right elbow into the side of his head in a push fashion and twisted to the left with it-spilling him over my right leg-he landed on his elbow-clear now?



I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

I will leave it up to you guys to discuss and debate how good he was vs wasn't-never happens etc-

and That was what brought me to the question

Thanks everybody

[unkokusai]

I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!




Who were these people, and what was the situation?

[sunfist]

I once hit a guys head on the ground and he EXPLODED.

[t_niehoff]

Third-Just because I have done some of it-doesn't mean I would be so foolish in a fight to try it against someone who really does it-or says they do-I fight my game my way because I know what I'm doing with it-I play to my strengths-not my weakness
My "personal" MMA includes Tai Chi,Ba Gua,Southern Preying Mantis,Silat,American Boxing and good ole WCK-so my game is to knock people down-not go down with them-


Nothing wrong with that strategy, and certainly it is smart to play to your strengths; however, as I pointed out, in self-defense situations or when fighting (sparring) with good people, we often don't have the luxury of choice.



Fourth-no disrespect intended-but I don't do it because I don't like to do it-and I am not good at it-and it doesn't suit me-and for no other reasons-I have no business rolling around on the floor-getting up,being slammed down,wriggling around and trying to get up again-if you haven't noticed-as we get older the floor gets harder and less comfortable


It boils down to what we personally want from our practice. We all make choices of how to train, what to train, etc. The important thing from my POV is that we make informed and intelligent choices.

One thing I really get tired of hearing is the "age excuse"; age has nothing to do with it. Inosanto took up BJJ at 60, and earned his BB at 70. The nature and demands of fighting doesn't change because we get older.

And whether we like a certain range or phase of fighting has nothing to do with it either. The ground, whether we like it or not, is a phase and/or range of fighting that we can find ourselves in -- against our wishes. While I think it smart and prudent to "fight our own game", experience will show us that we also have to be prepared for when things go awry. This is particularly true for the people concerned with "self-defense" or who want to fight recreationally or competitively: if you ignore the ground, you are leaving a large hole in your ability to defend yourself.

Now if someone just wants to box or do tai ji, for example, and that is their sole interest, that's great and who can argue with their choice of activities? But when the question turns to how well these activities (alone) prepare them for self-defense or fighting, then that's a horse of a different color.



I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

I will leave it up to you guys to discuss and debate how good he was vs wasn't-never happens etc-

and That was what brought me to the question

Thanks everybody

While sparring/experience is important in evaluating all things martial, even more important is the quality of that sparring/experience. I've found that often we get away with things not because they (our techniques or tactics or skill) are particularly good but because our opponents are particularly bad. We can't reach sound conclusions about our performance (what we did, how well we did it, etc.) based on dealing with unskilled/bad people. This is why I say the truth is as close as your nearest MMA gym: they will have competant fighters who have solid skills in all ranges/phases. While I've heard many WCK people say they could use their WCK on the ground, couldn't get taken down, etc. -- and in some cases I believe what they are telling me is true -- these sorts of statements never come from people who mix it up with good people. The rejoinder I most often hear when I point this out is: OK, but I don't plan on fighting a good wrestler (with good takedown skills). To me, this says "I am not concerned with sound fighting skills, I just want it to work against really unskilled people." Certainly that is one choice.

[Wayfaring]

-His right leg was forward at the time-My left leg(TWC Left Side Horse-and I had the slight outside angle)) did a front kick/knee raise as bait-since I faked it before to see a reaction in my comfort range
-He went for it -His right arm circled in a scoop around my lower leg knee as he came forward-
-my first rule of kicking-if they block it or grab it-put it down!-So since I had the outside angle-I immediately slammed my leg and bodyweight down onto the floor but also along the outer edge of his entire right leg-this caused it to buckle-at the same time-he was not completely set and was still coming forward as I dropped my leg and weight-at the same time I used my right elbow into the side of his head in a push fashion and twisted to the left with it-spilling him over my right leg-he landed on his elbow-clear now?

From my experience the difference between a sucky single-leg takedown and a good single-leg takedown is penetration. If someone grabs your leg without penetration you have the balance and momentum to stomp the front leg / make it heavy. Or pull off the low-percentage move you describe here. If they have penetration, you are moving backwards and can't put your leg down.

If your left leg is forward on the fake, and you hit with a right elbow twisting motion to the left, how exactly is it you spill him over your right leg?




I have had people push my leg forward and up to break my structure-pull it forward etc--but i have always been able to get my base back quickly and hit them before anything happened-so far-LOL!
Those that have gone for my legs-either single or double-I have always outflanked them and changed my base to give them nothing-or very little-to work with as I punched or neck cranked them(neck cranks and breaks are in Wing Chun as well)

That sounds like you haven't really faced skilled takedowns or don't know what you're talking about. How exactly would you do a neck crank from trying to outflank a shoot? To me outflanking a good shot would usually involve a wh1zzer and a sprawl or some similar movements even if there are different terminology. Raising a leg to me would be like gift wrapping the takedown

[SevenStar]

Everything comes to bear IMO. To say it has zero relevance is not true.

Ever hear "knowledge is power".
The fact he has experience in a ground related style means he's aware of aspects of the opponents fighting style. This would prepare him mentally as to what the opponent might use right ?

Obviously not, as pointed out by his account. What he claims to have done is something NO ground fighter would do. I would put money on that. Once again, that is why I say it's irrelevant. When I sparred kung fu guys, I didn't use ANYTHING I learned from longfist. To even preface my accounts of it with "I trained longfist" wouldn't have meant much, as I admittedly did not rely on it or use it in any way. To this day, I don't use anything I learned in longfist. The only time I ever even speak of it is when it has relevance on these forums.


Just because he didnt directly apply his ground game doesnt imply that his experience from the ground made him able to avoid getting to that point in the first place

It's not about applying a ground game - they never went down. but what he did had nothing to do with judo. As a judo brown belt, I'm sure he will admit that. As he said, that was something he learned from WC, once again rendering his preface irrelevant.


This is why professionals in fighting and in other sports watch tapes of the opponents to gauge what habbits they have in thier field

this I agree with.



So perhaps in that situation his Judo made it possible for him to utilise his stand up. :rolleyes:
The devil you know is better than the devil you dont know IMO.

No, considering that HE STATED that he used a wc defense...

Now in the case of the guy you swiped your screen name from, he uses his bjj and wrestling knowledge to avoid takedowns and remain standing. LJ admittedly did not use it.



First-I only included what little knowledge of grappling/groundfighting I have to illustrate the point that I don't have a lot of experience with it-and wouldn't delude or hallucinate that I am good at it-

[SevenStar]

You uchi mata in that case but I don't think John specified that it was the case.

you're not gonna uchi mata from there - you're gonna fall down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takedown_(grappling)

http://wwwbhs.bham.wednet.edu/activity/sports/wrestling/technique.htm

you're not gonna pivot and uchi mata someone from there...

[SevenStar]

After reading LJ's last post, it sounds like he baited the guy into performing a single leg. The guy shot in for it, but was unable to secure the leg before LJ put it back on the ground. The wrestler wasn't prepared for that and he was knocked off balance. LJ used that loss of balance to push the guy over.


LJ, is that correct?

[drleungjohn]

Seven Star-you are correct wrt your last post

Neck Crank-sorry for the terminology-any time I can twist a neck in an abnormal fashion I call it a crank

T-Yes on the big picture I agree we should not have an age issue-and having 3 65+ year olds in my class,it holds true-but as a Dr there are physical limitations that get worse as we age-and as one individual has had the opportunity to both Adjust Inosanto,to talk to him and watch him over the years-his martial injuries continue to multiply-even though I have minimal experience in that phase,I didn't say it was useless or shun myself and students away from it when the situation presents itself


My leg being pushed/pulled happened in various sparring sessions with different people-on purpose and by accident

I believe that of course luck,skill-on both parts- plays a big part-part of that skill is in interpreting and manipulating ranges and angles-and having the opportunity and knowledge to do something the same and different within those ranges and angles-for example-can I tan sao this punch at wrist range-vs mid forearm range vs elbow range-what are the pros and what are the cons-etc-

back to work--

[SevenStar]

In his defense, we don't know who he trained judo with. IME, there is a BIG difference between competition oriented clubs and recreational clubs. in a recreational club, he can get to brown and know his stuff, but not actually be able to apply it well. in a cimpetition school - not a chance. Also, even amongst those, there are other variations, foir example, the two clubs I attend. One has a 3 time national champ who LOVES ground work. SO we do a lot of it. The other club has world level competitors, but they also train bjj, so they do no groundwork whatsoever in the judo classes. Consequently, those students get no ground time unless they also train bjj.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kudos to 7 Star for his level-headed posts...

The "Aha - another kung fu B.S. artist" routine that some people flash like a badge every other post is really getting old and boring. :rolleyes: :cool:

[Edmund]

you're not gonna uchi mata from there - you're gonna fall down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takedown_(grappling)

http://wwwbhs.bham.wednet.edu/activity/sports/wrestling/technique.htm

you're not gonna pivot and uchi mata someone from there...

A kenken uchi mata on the leg after you've blocked a single or double is a doable counterattack.


http://home.bak.rr.com/armhunter/interview2.htm


Dan Camarillo: I use Uchi-mata a lot in competition along with my foot sweeps. Both of these throws help in a big way. Most opponents will land with an arm exposed if I used these throws. The Uchi-mata helps against wrestlers, they love to grad a leg, and if they are not used to Uchi-mata, it makes it very easy for me to counter their single leg takdowns.

[Liddel]

Sevenstar - i see your point. But the fact he baited the guy into a SLT shows his knowledge of 'another' art did play some part. I guess perhaps it wasnt Judo though...my bad.:o

I was only thinking this because ive avoided been taken down by a grappler, and in retrospect it was only due to the fact i have played rugby and was used to guys trying to tackle / take me down. Plus my VT of course.

I wasnt holding a rugby ball though - so the relevence is all in the POV. :)

side track over, as you were.......

[Knifefighter]

The "Aha - another kung fu B.S. artist" routine that some people flash like a badge every other post is really getting old and boring. :rolleyes: :cool:

LOL...

In case anyone hasn't noticed, what I'm giving him a hard time about isn't groundfighting at all... his "defense" had nothing to do with groundfighting. However, it had everything to do with standing grappling, something a judo brown belt (even a recreational one) should be very comfortable with.

Additionally, the description for working against a single leg he gave was ludicrous, even if the "MMA guy" was awful at leg takedowns.

Here is a clip of a match that is pretty close to the situation that was described and is much more of what happens when someone defends a single after the leg is caught:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka7q1TRfPlg

1- Even though I didn't have a very good single leg attack against him, he still had to work hard to get the leg back down. He had to wh!zzer, push my head back and make space, all the while making sure I didn't hit him... and this guy was a Division 1 wrestler. You don't "just put your leg down" when someone is working a single leg.

2- You can see by the clip there is no way his leg is able to come down into my thigh with anywhere near enough force to have buckled me down to the ground.

3- You can also see he can't get any kind of force with his elbow to push/hit me.

This is how single leg attacks are defended... not the pretend, fantasy version of "I pushed my leg into his and buckled him while jamming him into the floor" posted by this joker.

BTW, you can jam someone into the floor who is working a leg takedown... but you have to sprawl, which is pretty much the opposite of what was described.

And Edmund is right... you can counter a single with an uch mata (which also requires the wh!zzer if there is no gi). This would be a much more likely attempt from a true judo brown belt than the B.S he posted.

[SevenStar]

A kenken uchi mata on the leg after you've blocked a single or double is a doable counterattack.


http://home.bak.rr.com/armhunter/interview2.htm


I'd love to see a pic of it. My initial guess is that he does the uchi mata as they are going for the leg, not after they already have it grabbed and secured. It's like what LJ was talking about, but instead of baiting him and dropping his leg, he's baiting him, then attacking with uchi mata. That's really not the same situation as we talked about earlier.

[SevenStar]

here's something I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9yLvyocnKQ&mode=related&search=

It shows something along what LJ may have been talking about, but those are crappy takedowns in the vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWku2e6ZZUo&mode=related&search=

unless you are sprawling out, I just can't see realistically using an uchi mata here.

[Ultimatewingchun]

But it's not bull5hit that he posted...he baited the guy into going for a single leg and obviously did the rest before the guy had any real chance to seize his leg and take his balance away. Your argument is with the guy who tried to take him down...."Hey dummy - don't let people bait you into a move that you didn't really set up well enough to pull off."

Maybe you should do a google search for the guy. :p

[Edmund]

I'd love to see a pic of it. My initial guess is that he does the uchi mata as they are going for the leg, not after they already have it grabbed and secured. It's like what LJ was talking about, but instead of baiting him and dropping his leg, he's baiting him, then attacking with uchi mata. That's really not the same situation as we talked about earlier.

Probably have to look for your local uchi mata addict. It's crazy - some can do it hopping around on one leg, half falling over, gripping wherever etc.

I think David and Dan Camarillo had a youtube or youtube-clone clip where they were talking about no-gi ogoshi but also covered that basic idea of the uchi mata on the guy trying to finish a single leg. Can't find it searching around at the moment but it was more than just baiting him, anticipating and doing it.

I recall there was another youtube thing with a compilation of many uchi matas in judo comps. A couple of them were that style.

It's not really that high amplitude a throw because they are already down on your leg, so you aren't trying to get them flying up over your hip. It's just a little flip over your leg.

[Knifefighter]

But it's not bull5hit that he posted...he baited the guy into going for a single leg and obviously did the rest before the guy had any real chance to seize his leg and take his balance away.

Yes, it is complete bullsh1t.

Go back and watch the clip at 10-12 seconds in where I try to regrab his leg as he brings it back down. I have a very tenous hold on his leg and he has good balance, while I am somewhat out of position. That would have been the same scenario you are proposing and, you can see, it would be even harder from there to do what he said.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...I watched your vid...but you're comparing apples and oranges here, Dale.
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Remember your little light sparring session with Rahsun?

The one time you took him down is when he did a fully committed TWC Entry technique - the very move that John said he used to bait the guy in question - but John feinted it - and from what I gather from what he said - he put started putting his leg down before the guy fully grabbed it...and since the TWC Entry uses much forward momentum - it's indeed quite possible that he slammed the guys leg hard enough to buckle him.

Rahsun made several mistakes when he used the move against you:

1) You DON'T use it as a committed move against a man standing in a low crouch precisely because he might grab your leg while it's in the air and therefore your balance is not at it's strongest....you only use it as a committed move when he's standing fairly high.

2) Rahsun did not set it up at all with any kind of broken rhythm and/or punches or kicks preceding it.

3) Rahsun started it from too far away - making it easier for you to see it coming in time to react with a counter.

[Wayfaring]

But it's not bull5hit that he posted...he baited the guy into going for a single leg and obviously did the rest before the guy had any real chance to seize his leg and take his balance away. Your argument is with the guy who tried to take him down...."Hey dummy - don't let people bait you into a move that you didn't really set up well enough to pull off."

Maybe you should do a google search for the guy. :p

I don't know if it's BS or not. Sometimes once in a blue moon I can pull off some real low percentage BS that leave people shaking their heads in disgust.
I'm just not deluded enough to think that represents skilled groundfighting.

[Knifefighter]

Okay...I watched your vid...but you're comparing apples and oranges here, Dale.
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Remember your little light sparring session with Rahsun?

The one time you took him down is when he did a fully committed TWC Entry technique - the very move that John said he used to bait the guy in question - but John feinted it - and from what I gather from what he said - he put started putting his leg down before the guy fully grabbed it...and since the TWC Entry uses much forward momentum - it's indeed quite possible that he slammed the guys leg hard enough to buckle him.

Rahsun made several mistakes when he used the move against you:

1) You DON'T use it as a committed move against a man standing in a low crouch precisely because he might grab your leg while it's in the air and therefore your balance is not at it's strongest....you only use it as a committed move when he's standing fairly high.

2) Rahsun did not set it up at all with any kind of broken rhythm and/or punches or kicks preceding it.

3) Rahsun started it from too far away - making it easier for you to see it coming in time to react with a counter.

I guess you didn't see all the clips. That that was the second or third time I took him down and the only time he committed with forward momentum.

BTW... he was striking (if you want to call what we were doing striking) in the clip you saw. However the clip started several seconds in, making it look like he just rushed forward.

Either way, I don't really see what that has to do with anything related to this bullsh!ter's claims.

Do you practice takedowns and, if so, have you ever seen a single leg countered like he is saying?

And don't you think it is strange that he not only says he did this type of improbable counter, but also claims to have stopped a collegiate wrestler's takedown with an uppercut?

And don't you also find it strange that he claims to be a judo brownbelt, but is uncomfortable grappling? Do any of your guys feel uncomforable grappling after a few years of catch training with you?

Do you happen to know the guy or do you just believe him from the get-go because he is supposedly a WC practitioner? And if you don't know him, how do you know he is even a WC guy, considering all of his other BSing?

[cjurakpt]

And if you don't know him, how do you know he is even a WC guy, considering all of his other BSing?

I know John personally through non-martial association (he's a chiro, I'm a PT, we originally met at a visceral manip course in NYC); I can't say anything at all about his specific claims in regards to this post, or even his skill level (we've never actually touched hands), but he is a WC practitioner (I've been in his school, and I've trapped with some of his students).

this is his website: http://www.drjohnsot.com/

[Liddel]

LOL @ the turn this thread has taken from a reasonbly above board question about training on concrete.....

Same $hit, different day.:cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale,

I do know the guy - but not well enough to know where his skill level might be these days. As for most of your other points, yes....a pure uppercut all by itself won't cut it against a good wrestler's takedown....and yes, my guys are comfortable on the ground after just a few years of catch training.

But if the TWC Entry is baited (or interrupted quickly enough)....I can see how it's possible that if the guy goes for a single he could get unbalanced, stuffed, and struck - so that he got the worst of the situation.

That's my point.

As for a judo brown belt not being comfortable on the ground....giving John the benefit of the doubt that he actually is a brown belt....then it was probably one of those schools that spent 90% of their time doing throws and sweeps and very little time actually grappling on the ground.

Only he can really answer these questions.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ the turn this thread has taken from a reasonbly above board question about training on concrete.....
Same $hit, different day.

Good point.

The only thing I can figure about people who say "you don't want to go the ground on concrete/hard surface/etc" is that they haven't been in or around too many real life fights. The fact is that most fights happen on hard surfaces and many of them go to the ground whether "you want them to" or not.

And guess what? Hitting the ground rarely stops the fight. Most people have such an adrenaline rush in a fight, it doesn't even register that they are fighting on a hard surface.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't think it's a question of not wanting to go to the ground on a hard surface like concrete - it's a question of do you want to go to the ground at all?

And while it's true that you won't always have a choice about this, nonetheless, training so that he goes to the ground and you don't is the best option in real life fighting....and should always be looked upon as Plan A, imo.

Which means you train very hard at trying to end fights with punches, kicks, elbow strikes, knees, a standing choke or face lock/neck crank, a standing double wristlock and throw...or hard throws or sweeps followed by one or two punches or kicks to vulnerable targets, etc.

Plan B...you both go down but you land on him. And then try to quickly finish with strikes or a crippling submission that you seriously crank.

Plan C....he lands on top of you and you IMMEDIATELY work to get out from underneath - and preferably back up to your feet.

Plan D...because the circumstances of the fight has dictated it - you're down in a scramble and will have to work everything you know to get control - whether you've got a top position or underneath somewhere...and hopefully either end it down there with strikes or nasty submission or manage to get back up to your feet.

And although I don't have the ring/cage/octagon experience that some of you might have - I've had dozens of streetfights in my life, including two within the last 6 years - and I can tell you that what I've described above as Plan A through D makes the most sense to me after all this time (I'm 56 now).

In fact, the last fight (about 5 months ago) went the way of me bringing the guy down (when I really didn't have to)...punched his face three times and was ready to finish with an arm lock (when he tried to gouge my eye his far arm came up to my face)...which I was going to take all the way home when someone standing over me intervened...

and luckily it was just a do-good stranger.

It could have been a friend of his...:eek:

My bad. I took the fight to the ground when it didn't have to go there. Big mistake in real fighting, imo. Since then I've re-thought quite a few things about the advantages and disadvantages of going to the ground...

and have decided that Plan A is where I should spend at least 50% of my training time working with - and divide the remaining 50% amoungst B through D.

[drleungjohn]

I thought this was closed, we had moved on-obviously not-sorry for all this strife-

WELL-First-thank you Chris and Victor--

Chris-Mon and Wed at 8:30-11pm-stop in whenever

Victor-You and I have been in this game a long time-why doubt my veracity wrt to the judo thing-you know, just because I can also kick a guy in the head doesn't mean I'd do that or want to do that either in a fight

Dale-I am very easy to find,and find out about-just google me-as to if I am a Wing Chun guy-pretty funny-are you? Really. In a lot of WCK circles I am known-for both my honesty,sincerity and skills-and you? Just because you have maybe fought a lot of WC guys doesn't mean you know us all-or know WCK- I am sincerely curious as to you experience in WCK- or as somebody said,are you just a MMA guy on a WCK forum for whatever reason-

It's a shame you have to resort to name calling when you don't know me,don't know anything about me etc-nor do you have the right to do so since I did nothing insulting or demeaning to you or any of your comments-and it appears that you fail to see anyone elses' reality other then your own with regards to combat,ring life and fight experiences-


If you have been around the block once or twice-which it sounds like you have-We have all seen a lot of everybody who says they are good-or do a specific style-and aren't very good at it-next time I will be sure to always have a videocamera ready for documentation-as well as a copy of all lineage and credentials for you or anybody else-when something that "would never happen"-happens

I actually had a guy try a Jumping front kick on my while I held his leg( a la Enter the Dragon) while we were doing a silat move-(I have witnesses this time for you if need be)-I said don't-he thought eh could pull it off-I said ok-he bent his knee to jump up-as he lifted off I lifted the leg I was holding over his head and dumped him on his back-was it stupid-yes-but he still did it-

Taking a standard-"all fights go to the ground" issue-well none of mine have-except when I swept or threw the guy I was dealing with and he ended up on the floor-

-your reality and experiences are not mine-I'm 48 and been involved with Martial Arts since I was 10-do fights go to the ground,sure they do-that's why I dabbled in some ground work and such,to get a flavor of it-

-of course I have had fights -again that's your conclusion and opinion that I must have never-I was held up with a gun as a bartender-2 times with a knife-both attempted muggings-

I have been in bar fights as the abrtender and on the other side of the bar-

in the boxing ring(Arthur Mercante-if you have been in the fight biz,you will know the name- was my first boxing coach-you want his number-he lives in Garden City NY if you feel like asking him about me) and outside in schools

-in the days where challenge matches between kung fu schools was common-late 70's,early 80's-as well as fighting and training in Hong Kong(Inside Kung Fu for part of the story-Jackie Chans on the cover)

And like Victor said-from a WCK issue-and especially my own opinion-why go there if you don't have to?

My own first rule in it is -Don't go there,the second is-Get up

The thing that concerns me-as supposed WC guys on this forum-is that the one thing that nobody asked about in any of this-and where your concerns,disbelief and issues are,I think-is "Where were my hands?-Because as you should know-that makes a difference-in penetration or not,as well as how close he gets to me-and what he can attempt to do to me--what was my bai jong position in the upper gates?

And as far as the uppercut is concerned-I caught the guy on the way down-he didn't start in a bent over wrestler's "crab" stance-the way I call it

But whatever-no matter what I say,it's a closed issue-sorry

You guys can go ahead and get the last word in-
If anybody has anything else to say,email me-

Anyway-Peace

[Wayfaring]

I think the A through D plan is reasonably solid. I can think of very few street type of scenarios where I'd want to pull guard. I'd rather control space with much more mobility than that, whether striking or grappling.

The only other aspect I would differ with is that rather than sticking to a strict planned game I would probably try and gage the skillsets of my opponent early, and take the fight to the area they were weakest if it was a lone opponent.

If it was in a crowd, I'd get out of there quickly. I had a guy I knew who trained at a top boxers gym get shot from behind and killed. He got in an altercation in a bar with someone. They "took it outside", where he proceeded to start to take the guy apart with his hands boxing. The opponent was in a gang, and a fellow gang member went to his car, retrieved a .38, and put 5 shots into my friend from behind. He died leaving a girlfriend and a 12 year old boy. The shooter got a life sentence, but so what.

I don't mind playing around in a ring or mat, gym, etc. Going hard is good as you can handle the wear and tear. It's fun and keeps you in shape. But I have no delusions when it comes to outside. I'm not a "tough guy". I'll flee, isolate and escalate as necessary, with weapons available.

On this thread, John sounds like a lot of others. He's playing with ground related tactics but hasn't really had someone good teach him stuff. He's pulled off some low percentage stuff by range awareness, feints, maybe athleticism. I like that the awareness level is coming up to deal with all ranges. But rather than settle for cr@ppling, or speculate, it really is worth while to work with someone at Dale's level for ground work even if its for a short time or seminar. Then you start to see with a different perspective.

[unkokusai]

I caught the guy on the way down-he didn't start in a bent over wrestler's "crab" stance-the way I call it



?????????????????????:confused:

[sunfist]

Good point.

The only thing I can figure about people who say "you don't want to go the ground on concrete/hard surface/etc" is that they haven't been in or around too many real life fights. The fact is that most fights happen on hard surfaces and many of them go to the ground whether "you want them to" or not.

And guess what? Hitting the ground rarely stops the fight. Most people have such an adrenaline rush in a fight, it doesn't even register that they are fighting on a hard surface.

I think the mid way point here is the surface should simply be given consideration. There is a potential for incidental damage that would not occur on a mat, furthermore there is potential to deliberately cause damage to an opponent in ways that would be impossible on a mat (even if these only arise by chance).

This consideration is in no way a part of, or god forbid a substitute for- as some may claim, a fundamental knowledge of grappling, these skills are of course developed and honed on a mat. However, assuming that someone has developed such skills, and intends to use them for self defence, this is IMO a more than valid concern.

If a 'grappler' finds himself in a self defence situation on the ground, he will still be able to use his tools effectively for the most part. However there are oppertunities that did not exist before, and so conversely there are vunerabilities that did not exist before. Usually positional control against an untrained opponent will prove childs play, and so he wont be under threat for the most of the time. However, grapplers have engrained habits from mat training; these are not sunboncious, they are deliberate strategies employed for success on a matted surface, and would be disregarded or altered by any rational man on 'the street'. But can we presume someone in the act of defending himself rational? In some cases im sure the ability to dissect the situation remains, however in others it will deteriorate severely, and this is when the habits of a lifetimes practice become a worry.

I dont think the change of surface negates existing grappling knowledge, as so many probably want to believe, but surely if not duly considered it increases the unknown factor and provides one more place for something to go wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

John, Wayfaring, sunfist...

GOOD POSTS.

I don't doubt that you're a brown belt in judo, John...I was just taking the objective stance while talking about you to someone who's never met you. (Dale)

As for him, he studied wing chun for about 4-5 years way back in the day with someone who I know was never very good at all - but will remain nameless at Dale's request.

As for Dale always demanding to see people's credentials - that's just him, and the game he plays when on the internet. :rolleyes:

But if you manage to wade through the sarcasm and his gotcha game...he does have some interesting/informative things to say - since his skills and experience are legit.

Which is not to say that all his opinions about wing chun, the value of giving groundfighting top priority, the efficiency/practicality of the guard position, and a bunch of other things are always right (LOL)....but he does bring alot to the table for discussion.

BTW...hitting/hurting the guy with the uppercut while he was on his way down (presumably to shoot for your legs) is possible - so I see your point. But be prepared to hear Dale or 7 Star tell you that the wrestler/grappler in question was not a high level one if he left himself open like that. ;) :cool:

[Knifefighter]

It's a shame you have to resort to name calling when you don't know me,don't know anything about me etc-nor do you have the right to do so since I did nothing insulting or demeaning to you or any of your comments-and it appears that you fail to see anyone elses' reality other then your own with regards to combat,ring life and fight experiences-

Just calling a bullsh!tter a bullsh!tter. I have a pretty good instinct for rooting out those kinds of guys... they usually make grandoise claims, but give themselves away in the technical part of the debate.

[Knifefighter]

As for him, he studied wing chun for about 4-5 years way back in the day with someone who I know was never very good at all - but will remain nameless at Dale's request.

Actually, I learned WC from three people (Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, and Hawkins Cheung) and I trained it for about 8 years as part of an overall JKD curriculum which also included boxing, Muay Thai, stick and knife work.

Over the last 10 years or so, I've pretty much tried to "unlearn" almost all the WC I was taught, as I believe it hindered my ability to use other things that I believe suit me much better.

That being said, I respect the few "non BSer's" who can use their WC effectively.

Victor-
I would be interested to hear which (or is it all?) of the above guys you feel is not very good and what your experience has been with him/them.

[t_niehoff]

As for him, he studied wing chun for about 4-5 years way back in the day with someone who I know was never very good at all - but will remain nameless at Dale's request.

As for Dale always demanding to see people's credentials - that's just him, and the game he plays when on the internet. :rolleyes:


The only credentials any of us have is what we can do, our own skill/performance level. Everything else is BS. Who we learn WCK from, how long we've practiced it, etc. is all irrelevent (and what all theoretical nonfighters point to since that is all they have) and anyone who fights will know better.

Those credentials (what we can do) do matter because anyone can come onto a forum and spout all kinds of nonsense (and I'm not saying that was the case with John). People with real experience (credentials) can smell BS much more readily than those without it.



But if you manage to wade through the sarcasm and his gotcha game...he does have some interesting/informative things to say - since his skills and experience are legit.


It is always a wise thing to consider what experienced people have to say. And he can't be blamed for sarcasm and for tending to see BS behind everything since he's talking about the TCMAs!



Which is not to say that all his opinions about wing chun, the value of giving groundfighting top priority, the efficiency/practicality of the guard position, and a bunch of other things are always right (LOL)....but he does bring alot to the table for discussion.


Opinions are only as good as the source. You're in New York, right? Why not go visit Renzo's school or Matt Serra's school and see for yourself how efficient and practical the guard can be?



BTW...hitting/hurting the guy with the uppercut while he was on his way down (presumably to shoot for your legs) is possible - so I see your point. But be prepared to hear Dale or 7 Star tell you that the wrestler/grappler in question was not a high level one if he left himself open like that. ;) :cool:

Lots of things are possible . . .especially against scrubs. That they are possible does not mean they are good or sound or high-percentage or etc.

[Knifefighter]

Opinions are only as good as the source. You're in New York, right? Why not go visit Renzo's school or Matt Serra's school and see for yourself how efficient and practical the guard can be?.

You have to kind of ignore what Victor says when he discusses anything related to the guard, as he is speaking from a very limited point of view in that respect. He is basically just parroting what he has heard from Tony C's catch tapes. He has no practical hands-on experience with or against anyone proficient with the guard.

[Sihing73]

Actually, I learned WC from three people (Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, and Hawkins Cheung) and I trained it for about 8 years as part of an overall JKD curriculum which also included boxing, Muay Thai, stick and knife work.

Hello,

While I may respect Dan Inosanto and Richard Bustillo I would hardly consider them Wing Chun People. Perhaps if you were to cite their training for the FMA then it would be more impressive, at least to me. Now Hawkins Cheung is another matter entirely.

JKD can hardly be considered traditional WC training. IMHO, JKD people, while potentially good fighters, could not be considered as good examples of WC.

FWIW my WC training has been under Augustine Fongs lineage-Sifu Roy Undem, Leung Ting Lineage-Sifu Keith Kernsprecht and Sifu Allan Fong(I lived in Allans home for a while) and Sifu Chung Kwok Chow with whom I now study.

My FMA training is Under Akmeed Boouracca an instructor under Leo T. Gaje with whom I have been working since about 1987 or so. I also trained in Rene Latosa Escrima while under Leung Ting.

My real life experience is based on my having worked as a Correctional Officer in a County Prison and having been a Philadelphia Housing Police Officer and Pennsylvania State Police Trooper. I have had a few scrapes and can say that based on MY EXPERIENCE Wing Chun and the FMA's training I had was sufficent to meet my needs and, IMHO, if properly trained, the needs of most people not actively seeking trouble on the streets. Of course, it is better to avoid than to confront.

I am not knocking anyone but nor would I try to put my own experience as the be all end all of reality combat even though I have been in life threatening situations and have the scars from such encounters. But then as Terrence points out I have just done exactly what the "theoretical nonfighters" do so I must be full of crap too :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

As I told you a long time ago, Dale...I refuse to play your credentials game anymore....I know which BJJ guy I've rolled with not long ago (yes - and in his guard)....who studies with someone who lived for 5 years in Rickson's house and who is now one of Royler's top instructors in New Jersey...and the guy I rolled with is very good...

as is his wing chun abilites - since he studied with me for 6 years, and was one of the best students I've ever had before he moved to New Jersey.

and I know how much wing chun Dan Inosanto got from Bruce (ie.- very little of the best stuff, as in advanced chi sao material)...and I know it because Dan told me so himself !!!...and as for Hawkins...I'll be kind to a kung fu uncle and not say anything.

Man....you've really got to spend less time looking in the mirror and more time paying attention to what other people know and have to offer.

Your routine is really getting old.

[Knifefighter]

As I told you a long time ago, Dale...I refuse to play your credentials game anymore....I know which BJJ guy I've rolled with not long ago (yes - and in his guard)....

This is the BJJ white belt who had about 12 sessions under his white belt, I believe? Of course you wouldn't want to state his credentials.


who studies with someone who lived for 5 years in Rickson's house and who is now one of Royler's top instructors in New Jersey...and the guy I rolled with is very good...

Does taking 12 lessons from one of Royler's instructors give the white belt that you rolled with a proficient guard?

I think it usually takes a bit more than that to develop much of a guard game.


and the guy I rolled with is very good...

And that was a white belt. Now imagine what it might be like to roll with a BJJ purple, brown, or black belt.



and I know how much wing chun Dan Inosanto got from Bruce (ie.- very little of the best stuff, as in advanced chi sao material)...and I know it because Dan told me so himself !!!...and as for Hawkins...I'll be kind to a kung fu uncle and not say anything..

I'm guessing you are stating that you are a much better WC guy than both of these guys.
Have you crossed hands with either of them?



Man....you've really got to spend less time looking in the mirror and more time paying attention to what other people know and have to offer.

LOL @ paying attention to what other people have to offer. This coming from someone who has learned grappling by correspondence. Someone who has never trained with a real-life, in-person grappling instructor in the style he professes to practice, yet puts down other grapplers with a somewhat different approach, even though they have spent years training in-person with good instructors and competing in open grappling tourneys. Someone whose only experience with other styles is to grapple with a white belt former student.

Instead of just training with your students in the confines of your school, why don't you go out and just once actually grapple in an open grappling tourney to see what real grappling is all about?

[forever young]

My own first rule in it is -Don't go there,the second is-Get up

Thats always supposing you would have the luxury of a choice in the matter....
man you spout some cr4p!!!! im sorry to say its people like you who make wc look bad for everyone else!!!
i have trained wc for a fair few years now BUT after just a little while in bjj even i can see you are full of rubbish from a technical point so with some of your claims/statements i can only imagine what the wider martial community would think of both you and wc in general, i put it to you all thats left is to get some d34dly ANTI GRAPPLE from his holiness LT :p
and as for the lava/needle/rock/ strewn streets you all keep harping on about, please try and appreciate a grappler dont trip/throw HIMSELF FIRST he will usually land ontop of you (certainly if its a well executed takedown/throw/trip) so i guess its your asses that would be burned on all the lava ;)
ultimately all encounters depend on being able to keep in your preferred range, what makes liddell good isnt his kicks or punches its his ability to keep the fight in his comfortable working range exactly where he wants it.

i have lurked a long time here now but the misinformation and crap floating on this thread finally stirred me into posting, ill go back to lurking now i have that off my chest :D

[t_niehoff]

and as for Hawkins...I'll be kind to a kung fu uncle and not say anything.


I'm sure he would have fared much worse against Boztepe. ;)

[t_niehoff]

As far as paying attention to what other people have to offer, instead of just watching tapes, getting moves off the internet and training with your students and white belt BJJ guys in the confines of your school, why don't you go out and just once actually grapple in an open grappling tourney to see what real grappling is all about?


Or just amble on down to Renzo's or Matt Serra's school on open mat night. You get better by rolling/sparring with good people (if you're smart, the best you can find) -- that has more to do with developing a good ground game (or even appreciating the ground) than anything else.


BTW, Victor, what is the name of the "top instructor under Royler" -- Royler is coming here this weekend for a seminar, and I'll ask him about the guy.

[Edmund]

Thats always supposing you would have the luxury of a choice in the matter....
man you spout some cr4p!!!! im sorry to say its people like you who make wc look bad for everyone else!!!
i have trained wc for a fair few years now BUT after just a little while in bjj even i can see you are full of rubbish from a technical point so with some of your claims/statements i can only imagine what the wider martial community would think of both you and wc in general, i put it to you all thats left is to get some d34dly ANTI GRAPPLE from his holiness LT :p
and as for the lava/needle/rock/ strewn streets you all keep harping on about, please try and appreciate a grappler dont trip/throw HIMSELF FIRST he will usually land ontop of you (certainly if its a well executed takedown/throw/trip) so i guess its your asses that would be burned on all the lava ;)
ultimately all encounters depend on being able to keep in your preferred range, what makes liddell good isnt his kicks or punches its his ability to keep the fight in his comfortable working range exactly where he wants it.

i have lurked a long time here now but the misinformation and crap floating on this thread finally stirred me into posting, ill go back to lurking now i have that off my chest :D

Speaking of spouting cr@p, you're not making much sense.
I don't believe John ever mentioned anything about "lava/needle/rock/ strewn streets".

Secondly your argument about getting thrown down by a grappler being very dangerous is doing more to *support* John's idea of learning to defend takedowns and stay off or get off the ground. If they want to do a Liddell, they don't need to learn much submissions do they?

The REAL point is that grappling arts cover many of the above aspects much better than striking arts. And they are trained in ways that are safe and effective. i.e. Not on concrete.

[Nick Forrer]

You have to kind of ignore what Victor says when he discusses anything related to the guard, as he is speaking from a very limited point of view in that respect. He is basically just parroting what he has heard from Tony C's catch tapes. He has no practical hands-on experience with or against anyone proficient with the guard.

Thank you. Someone had to say it.

[Edmund]

I think the A through D plan is reasonably solid. I can think of very few street type of scenarios where I'd want to pull guard. I'd rather control space with much more mobility than that, whether striking or grappling.


If you are taken down, you should pull guard.

It's the best position on the bottom because it limits what your opponent can hurt you with and it has a lot of options to submit or sweep them.

Obviously if you just lie there and hang on, you will be eventually beaten up, but one of the first things you learn from the guard is to not do that.

[Nick Forrer]

as for Hawkins...I'll be kind to a kung fu uncle and not say anything.
.

What are you basing this little gem on? I'll say you know as much about Hawkins level in wc as you do about the BJJ guard which is to say sweet FA.

[Nick Forrer]

If you are taken down, you should pull guard.

It's the best position on the bottom because it limits what your opponent can hurt you with and it has a lot of options to submit or sweep them.

Obviously if you just lie there and hang on, you will be eventually beaten up, but one of the first things you learn from the guard is to not do that.

Glad to hear someone knows what they are talking about. The ignorance displayed on this thread is truly astounding.

[Matrix]

and as for Hawkins...I'll be kind to a kung fu uncle and not say anything.Victor,
If you really wanted to "be kind" you would not have said this.:rolleyes: The comment is laced with inuendo. I'm not exactly sure what your point is, but I think you should reconsider.

[Liddel]

I see your point. But be prepared to hear Dale or 7 Star tell you that the wrestler/grappler in question was not a high level one if he left himself open like that. ;) :cool:

Man, its rather easy to see 'very' skilled individuals make some rather silly mistakes.

Babalu's last fight saw him throwing leg kicks with his hands down - goodnight.
How much fighting experience has he got and what a simple mistake. I tell beginners off for that kinda stuff. :eek:



And that was a white belt. Now imagine what it might be like to roll with a BJJ purple, brown, or black belt.

I seem to remember a rather good BJJ Black belt loosing to Jason Von Flu in TUF, who was surprised himself (as a standup fighter) to do so well on the ground against george.

Now im not saying that myself or anyone here could do well against these guys just because they made mistakes.
My point is only to highlight that training only increases your chances of survival, it does not gaurantee it like some pretend.
:cool:

[forever young]

Speaking of spouting cr@p, you're not making much sense.
I don't believe John ever mentioned anything about "lava/needle/rock/ strewn streets".Well i never mentioned john exclusively now did i hmmmmmmmm? the comments about how many rocks/grannies/small babies you might be damaged on while takedown/rolling is occuring is and has been stated on this thread, try re reading it with your glasses ON m8.....


Secondly your argument about getting thrown down by a grappler being very dangerous is doing more to *support* John's idea of learning to defend takedowns and stay off or get off the ground. If they want to do a Liddell, they don't need to learn much submissions do they?
OR perhaps if you think like a rational human being then you would realise that i previously stated the winner would most likely be the one who manages to stay in their comfortable working range so if you can defend a takedown well you can obviously do better than if not (ref liddell vs ortiz) BUT the point is that they manage to stay up BECAUSE THEY GRAPPLE so know how to defend better against a takedown attempt AND have enough grappling ability to be able to escape/free themselves,


The REAL point is that grappling arts cover many of the above aspects much better than striking arts. And they are trained in ways that are safe and effective. i.e. Not on concrete.
go back behind the wardrobe to narnia with lucy and peter where its safe ;)

[Edmund]

BUT the point is that they manage to stay up BECAUSE THEY GRAPPLE so know how to defend better against a takedown attempt AND have enough grappling ability to be able to escape/free themselves,


That's what I said, you idiot.


The REAL point is that grappling arts cover many of the above aspects much better than striking arts.

[Knifefighter]

While I may respect Dan Inosanto and Richard Bustillo I would hardly consider them Wing Chun People.

What is your experience with them to say that?

Have you crossed hands with either/both? Done Chi Sao with either/both? Seen them do some WC (videos, demos, instructionals?)?

And what is your experience with Hawkins to say that he is "WC people" and they are not?

Just trying to clarify so I can keep track of whom I learned bad WC from and who might have taught me some better WC.

Maybe I can get a ruling from the official WC quality control board to tell me which of these were bad and which (if any) were good so I can remember to separate the inferior WC from the good guy(s)' teachings next time I fight.

I think you WC guys need to have some kind of regular competitions so that we outsiders will have some kind of objective criteria to be better able to judge who might be teaching us sub-par WC.

BTW, is there a WC Better Business Bureau that I can complain to and see about getting my money back for all the time I spent learning all that fake WC from the not real WC guys?

[Knifefighter]

I seem to remember a rather good BJJ Black belt loosing to Jason Von Flu in TUF, who was surprised himself (as a standup fighter) to do so well on the ground against george.

Having a BJJ black belt does not make one invincible. However, since belts in BJJ are achieved through performance on the mat, a BJJ purple, brown, or black belt will almost always be better than a white belt.

Since Victor thought this white belt was so good (at least in relation to his own skills), just think how much better a higher level belt would seem to him.

[Mr Punch]

The REAL point is that grappling arts cover many of the above aspects much better than striking arts. And they are trained in ways that are safe and effective. i.e. Not on concrete.
the point is that they manage to stay up BECAUSE THEY GRAPPLE so know how to defend better against a takedown attempt AND have enough grappling ability to be able to escape/free themselves,:rolleyes:
The REAL point is that grappling arts cover many of the above aspects much better than striking arts. And they are trained in ways that are safe and effective. i.e. Not on concrete.


go back behind the wardrobe to narnia with lucy and peter where its safe ;):rolleyes:

Welcome to the forum Forever Young - we need more idiots who can't follow a discussion round here :)


What percentage do you think "slamming your leg" on your opponent's outer leg would be against a single leg? I'm guessing if you have much of a background in grappling, you would know how low percentage (if not ludicrous) this type of thing would be against a single leg takedown (more along the lines of what someone who really had no experience with this would theorize about how it might be done). Someone with a significant background in judo would more than likely work a more high percentage move from his background in judo.
My background in grappling is rank beginner, but I try. I just assumed that since this John character is not a regular grappler he doesn't know how to describe what happened sufficiently to appease the grappling experts round the forum. His initial point (the bit that was on topic) didn't make sense anyway, and your point about if he was a judoka he should have better luck with a judo reflex against a single leg than something as low percentage as whatever the hell it was he was describing was a good one. But don't forget not everyone works from the same standard of terminology. Sometimes you and Unko rag on people who can't describe what they've done, and in this case it sounds pretty much like John went for some kind of judo throw.

On credentials: Knifefighter... since you're always banging on about who trained under who in BJJ and wrestling and whatever, which is fair enough, while you're calling Sihing 73 out for his assessment of Inosanto's and Bustillo's wing chun, perhaps you could tell us who they studied wing chun under and for how long?

Inosanto only studied wing chun under Bruce Lee didn't he? And Bruce didn't finish half the system, and only had unrecorded fights, so now you're gonna tell us Inosanto is a WC teacher? I've never met the guy, and I know WC has no quality control like BJJ has, but it seems you may not have had access to particularly good WC to base your ideas on. :p

I'm only ragging you cos I can use your own arguments :D ... I don't actually give a ****. I like training WC and think it adds to my game... but it's just one aspect of it, and that's about it.

[t_niehoff]

What is your experience with them to say that?

Have you crossed hands with either/both? Done Chi Sao with either/both? Seen them do some WC (videos, demos, instructionals?)?

And what is your experience with Hawkins to say that he is "WC people" and they are not?

Just trying to clarify so I can keep track of whom I learned bad WC from and who might have taught me some better WC.

Maybe I can get a ruling from the official WC quality control board to tell me which of these were bad and which (if any) were good so I can remember to separate the inferior WC from the good guy(s)' teachings next time I fight.

I think you WC guys need to have some kind of regular competitions so that we outsiders will have some kind of objective criteria to be better able to judge who might be teaching us sub-par WC.

BTW, is there a WC Better Business Bureau that I can complain to and see about getting my money back for all the time I spent learning all that fake WC from the not real WC guys?

This is exactly what you get when your art isn't performance-based: the criteria for "what is good" becomes purely subjective and theoretical. So-and-so doesn't have "good WCK" because he doesn't practice or do WCK the way I think it should be done.

This is not to suggest that anything you can pull off is "good WCK", just as not everything you can pull off is good BJJ or good muay thai. Each method has its tools. It's how well you can use those tools -- the quality of opponent you can handle -- that is the measure of just how good or bad your WCK is. Performance.

And, this is why the old traditional stand-by excuse "I am a teacher, not a fighter" is so lame. Translated it means, I know how it should be done, but I just can't do it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"This is the BJJ white belt who had about 12 sessions under his white belt, I believe? Of course you wouldn't want to state his credentials." (Dale)


***I'M GOING to give you the benefit of the doubt on this and just assume that you have me confused with someone else you've been talking to - as I know nothing about any guy with just 12 lessons under his belt with Royler.


......................


"I'm guessing you are stating that you are a much better WC guy than both of these guys. (Dan Inosanto and Hawkins Cheung) Have you crossed hands with either of them? (Dale)


***AND ME crossing hands with Dan Inosanto 28 years ago when he told me this (and at that time I had a total of 4 years in non-TWC wing chun)....this would have proved what? :confused: :eek: :cool:

I'm just relating to you what Dan Inosanto said to me about how much wing chun he really knew...why do you think he was in NYC at that time?...because he wanted to kearn MORE about wing chun from my then-instructor Moy Yat.

Just another example of your clueless attempts to try and make the "are your credentials as good as mine" game the end-all-and-be-all around here.

Then again - I guess we could say that Dan was trying to improve his wing chun credentials at that time. :p LOL.

[t_niehoff]

Victor, I'm still waiting for the name of the "top instructor under Royler" -- Royler is going to be here tomorrow and I want to ask him about the guy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

His first name is David, I forgot his last name. (It might be Aziz...I don't recall exactly).

Anyway, he's an Isreali guy who went to Brazil before settling in New Jersey.

I would imagine that not too many guys fit that description, so you should have no trouble getting him identified.

[t_niehoff]

His first name is David, I forgot his last name. (It might be Aziz...I don't recall exactly).

Anyway, he's an Isreali guy who went to Brazil before settling in New Jersey.

I would imagine that not too many guys fit that description, so you should have no trouble getting him identified.


This guy?

http://www.evolutionjj.com/david.html

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes...that's him.

And my student's name is Brett Engle. (And when I rolled with Brett...about 9 months ago)...he was already training under David for about 3 years or so - including sometimes rolling with Royler when Royler was visiting the school in New Jersey, although I don't recall Brett ever telling me what belt he is.

All I know is that he wanted no part of what I was doing after about 10-15 seconds in his guard and decided to go out the only door available to him in order to escape - so he shrimped back really hard and fast (in the direction where his head was - but slightly off line)...and managed to get away and back to his feet.

Which just proved the point I was trying to make to him - that there are ways to take the armbar, triangle, and sweep/omoplata away form the bottom guy - while simultaneously making him very vulnerable to strikes, passes, shinlocks, and heel hooks.

So he decided that escaping was the best strategy. Smart man.

Now listen r-e-a-l carefully, Terence...I don't care that you or anybody else thinks I should go over to Renzo's school and test all this out on them; on the contrary, let the BJJ nuthuggers go see Sakuraba, or Barnett , or Tony Cecchine - to name just a few....if they're so convinced that they're safe in the guard to the point where, up against a high level catch wrestler/striker...they can just start thinking stay-the-course and offense from the bottom...

and what was that post by Dale recently about how Fedor's striking game is so dangerous to guard players???

[t_niehoff]

Yes...that's him.

And just so I am clear . . . you rolled with him and came to the conclusion that the guard wasn't effective?

[Knifefighter]

***AND ME crossing hands with Dan Inosanto 28 years ago when he told me this (and at that time I had a total of 4 years in non-TWC wing chun)....this would have proved what? :confused: :eek: :cool:

I'm just relating to you what Dan Inosanto said to me about how much wing chun he really knew....

So you are basing the fact that Dan is not good at WC on something he told you when you met him once 28 years ago... when you didn't have much WC expereince yourself and never actually went against him.

Wow, that sure makes a lot of sense... in your world, I guess.

And Hawkins?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not going to discuss how I know what I know about Hawkins...


and as for Dan - when did I say that here in 2007 Dan Inosanto's wing chun knowedge/skill is not very good?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence, you need to read my posts more carefully.

[Knifefighter]

Yes...that's him.

And my student's name is Brett Engle. (And when I rolled with Brett...about 9 months ago)...he was already training under David for about 3 years or so - including sometimes rolling with Royler when Royler was visiting the school in New Jersey, although I don't recall Brett ever telling me what belt he is.

OK... fair enough. He would have been about blue belt level.


Now listen r-e-a-l carefully, Terence...I don't care that you or anybody else thinks I should go over to Renzo's school and test all this out on them; on the contrary, let the BJJ nuthuggers go see Sakuraba, or Barnett , or Tony Cecchine - to name just a few....if they're so convinced that they're safe in the guard to the point against a high level catch wrestler...so that they can start thinking offense, offense, offense from the bottom....

I don't know about that, but... do you ever come out to LA?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Never been there.

[Knifefighter]

Never been there.

I don't go to NY either. Too bad. You and I would be a good match-up.

[CFT]

You should meet halfway-ish at Terence's. ;)

[stricker]

My point is only to highlight that training only increases your chances of survival, it does not gaurantee it like some pretend.
:cool:nice point.


about guard,

i dont think guard should be somewhere you WANT to go in mma, but if you have guard you can tie up to avoid being struck, work to stand up, go for submissions etc, NONE of which you can do if you dont have guard.

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;747821]What is your experience with them to say that?

Have you crossed hands with either/both? Done Chi Sao with either/both? Seen them do some WC (videos, demos, instructionals?)?

And what is your experience with Hawkins to say that he is "WC people" and they are not?QUOTE]

Dale,

You sure like to incite things don't you, :p Read what I said, just because someone may have some training in an art does not make them qualified to be a representative of that art. Considering that Dan studied with Bruce Lee and was exposed to and even helped formulate JKD should be inidcative of whether or not he is a "WC GUY" Richard came from Dan, arguably, so if Dan is more of a JKD or FMA person then it follows that Richard would be as well. Nothing I said in any way detracts from eithers skill. Simply put, in MOST MA CIRCLES, Dan and Richard would be known for their JKD skills not WC.

As for Hawkins, he is known as and makes his claim to be a WC person and studeied in HK with YM. He teaches WC not a hodgepodge of this and that which is why I would include him as a WC person.

If I go to college and am studying say, Criminal Justice and I take a few courses in Cooking, would that make me qualified to claim to be a Chef?? Judging by your comments I would think you would think so, at least as long as it suited your purpose ;) Of course, if it did not suite your POV then I am sure you would claim otherwise :D

Next time you see Danny why don't you ask him whether he considers himself a WC guy and why he does not promote himself as such? I would love to hear the answer :rolleyes: Oh to answer your question, no I have not crossed hands with either but I have seen videos, does that count :confused: Again, if my perspective differs from yours I would think not :(

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think you're right, Dale...And if it ever happens...win, lose, or draw...I'll buy you a beer afterwards. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I dont think guard should be somewhere you WANT to go in mma, but if you have guard you can tie up to avoid being struck, work to stand up, go for submissions etc, NONE of which you can do if you don't have guard." (stricker)


***I AGREE with that 100%. The guard can indeed be very useful if you're put down on your back.

[Knifefighter]

You sure like to incite things don't you,

:) :eek::) :eek: :cool: :o :cool::o
Hey... you guys set yourselves up to be incited.
I say I don't find WC to be very effective for myself, although I trained it for almost 10 years. You guys say it was because I had not-so-great instructors. You should be able to back up those statements.


Read what I said, just because someone may have some training in an art does not make them qualified to be a representative of that art. Considering that Dan studied with Bruce Lee and was exposed to and even helped formulate JKD should be inidcative of whether or not he is a "WC GUY" Richard came from Dan, arguably, so if Dan is more of a JKD or FMA person then it follows that Richard would be as well.

So, does that make them sucky WC instructors?


As for Hawkins, he is known as and makes his claim to be a WC person and studeied in HK with YM. He teaches WC not a hodgepodge of this and that which is why I would include him as a WC person.

And what about him?
You say he is the real deal.
Victor seems to imply otherwise.
What should someone do if they are considering going to him for WC instruction when one WC expert says he is the real deal and another one implies he is sub-par?



Oh to answer your question, no I have not crossed hands with either but I have seen videos, does that count

What was your impression of their WC based on the videos?

[AndrewS]

Dale writes:


And what about him?
You say he is the real deal.
Victor seems to imply otherwise.
What should someone do if they are considering going to him for WC instruction when one WC expert says he is the real deal and another one implies he is sub-par?

I've had three training partners who have done significant training time with Hawkins in his classes, know other folks who spent time in front of him, and have met the gentleman back before some annoying politics occurred.

From what I understand, Hawkins' personal level of skill is signficant (though I have heard a dissenting view or two about that).

From what I understand, Hawkins is an indifferent and, frankly, poor teacher who is either unable or unwilling to pass his insights along to most people. If you have a good eye, he likes you, and you are clever about stealing knowledge you may get something from him. If not, you get nothing. It sounds like you didn't get much. I've run into a number of people like this over time- they have skill but won't or can't share how they got it. Pity.

YMMV,

Andrew

[Sihing73]

:) Hey... you guys set yourselves up to be incited.
I say I don't find WC to be very effective for myself, although I trained it for almost 10 years. You guys say it was because I had not-so-great instructors. You should be able to back up those statements.

So, does that make them sucky WC instructors?

And what about him?
You say he is the real deal.
Victor seems to imply otherwise.
What should someone do if they are considering going to him for WC instruction when one WC expert says he is the real deal and another one implies he is sub-par?

What was your impression of their WC based on the videos?

Hello Dale,

I do not remember when I ever mentioned those you brought up in theis thread other than in response to your post. I gave my opinion based on their focus of training as to whether or not they would be considered WC people. How about responding to my query as to why they are known for JKD and or FMA but not for WC?

In answer to your second question: perhaps it is not a reflection on the teacher but on the student ;)

As to Hawkins what I said is that he is recognized as being a WC instructor because he trained WC and teaches WC. He does not claim to teach other arts, so yes, he is a WC instructor. Nothing said pertaining to his level of skill as I do not have first hand knowledge, although I have heard good things about him.

As to the videos I watched: I saw impressive skills but based more from a FMA perspective rather than strictly WC. Of course, you could argue that since WC is conceptual that FMA techniques could be a part of WC. I know that I find them to be highly compatable.

So Dale, I guess I am curious as to why someone as skilled as Danny woudl waste time with WC since, as you put it, it is so ineffective??? :confused: :D

[stricker]

"I dont think guard should be somewhere you WANT to go in mma, but if you have guard you can tie up to avoid being struck, work to stand up, go for submissions etc, NONE of which you can do if you don't have guard." (stricker)


***I AGREE with that 100%. The guard can indeed be very useful if you're put down on your back.ok well seeing as apparently your not a fan of guard i think i better follow on a bit to see where we start to disagree :) what i meant is really its not the superior position maybe some people think/thought it is, the days of bjj guys just jumping into guard and submitting people with no clue are over... however it's VITAL to have rather than being mounted. and i think guard is the fundamental basis for all groundwork.

[Knifefighter]

How about responding to my query as to why they are known for JKD and or FMA but not for WC?

You got me on that one. I always thought they were considered WC teachers. I have no idea how the WC "experts" decide this kind of stuff.


In answer to your second question: perhaps it is not a reflection on the teacher but on the student ;)

Maybe... but I've managed to become somewhat proficient in BJJ, wrestling, MT, boxing, stick fighting and several other non-combat athletic endeavors. Wonder why I would only suck at WC.


I guess I am curious as to why someone as skilled as Danny woudl waste time with WC since, as you put it, it is so ineffective??? :confused: :D

Maybe because he kind of has to teach it, since he teaches Bruce's Jun Fan/JKD systems and it was part of those?

[Sihing73]

You got me on that one. I always thought they were considered WC teachers. I have no idea how the WC "experts" decide this kind of stuff.



Maybe... but I've managed to become somewhat proficient in BJJ, wrestling, MT, boxing, stick fighting and several other non-combat athletic endeavors. Wonder why I would only suck at WC.



Maybe because he kind of has to teach it, since he teaches Bruce's Jun Fan/JKD systems and it was part of those?

Hi Dale,

I have never heard Danny or Richard referred to as "WC" teachers. Perhaps you could be kind enough to point me to something which declares this status, maybe a link somewhere on the internet.

Glad to hear it, proficiency in something is better than nothing. So what would you consider yourself, a mongrel :p Sorry, could not resist as I think of mixed breed dogs which while wonderful pets would hardly be considered representative of any pure breed.

I don't get the last point since part of Lees teaching was to abosrb what was useful and disregard what was not. Seems to be that continuing to teach something ineffective would kind of go against this principle. Oh, and if it is a part of the Jun Fan/JKD systems (a word Lee seemed to dislike ;) ) then does that make Danny, or any other teacher, of that system(s) a representative of each part. For example, lets say that the original Jun Fan/JKD core was based on 11 main arts and a couple of sub sets. Would you honestly think that an instructor would be a representative of each and every system or sub system taught? Seems to me that would be a prime example of "Jack of All Trades:Master of None". In such a case I would hardly expect any high representation of each art. Now if they concentrated on one aspect and then integrated from there it would be a different story. But again, why train something ineffective rather than move on to something better? Lee himself warned against becoming a slave to a system.

[Knifefighter]

I have never heard Danny or Richard referred to as "WC" teachers. Perhaps you could be kind enough to point me to something which declares this status, maybe a link somewhere on the internet.

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/

Listed under Moy Yat.


So what would you consider yourself, a mongrel
Absolutely... my goal in a fight is always to take my opponent into a realm in which he is less familiar than I am.

I think you will also find in nature that mixed breeds are usually hardier than inbreds... diversity is the key.

I believe fighting is the same.


But again, why train something ineffective rather than move on to something better? Lee himself warned against becoming a slave to a system.

That's my philosophy exactly.

[t_niehoff]

Lee himself warned against becoming a slave to a system.

In reality, there are no such things as systems. Are there systems for playing basketball, for playing tennis, for any athletic activity? This is another thing the nonfighter theoreticians have come up with.

[Sihing73]

In reality, there are no such things as systems. Are there systems for playing basketball, for playing tennis, for any athletic activity? This is another thing the nonfighter theoreticians have come up with.

Ah, so then claiming to teach something because it is part of the original system is something which would be put forth by a theoretical non-fighter? So what would you consider Wing Chun or any other "standardized" martial art to be? What name to use now :confused:

[Sihing73]

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/

Listed under Moy Yat.

Absolutely... my goal in a fight is always to take my opponent into a realm in which he is less familiar than I am.

I think you will also find in nature that mixed breeds are usually hardier than inbreds... diversity is the key.

I believe fighting is the same.

That's my philosophy exactly.

Hello Dale,

Thank you, I never knew that Danny was listed under anyone other Bruce Lee as regards Wing Chun. However, this now makes me ponder, does he teach WC based on what her learned from Lee or Moy Yat? I still am more familiar with him being known for JKD or Kali than WC.

A good strategy as you should never try to fight your opponents game or fight. I have always loved mutts although I still have more of a fondness for Rotties than any other breed. Funny how "designer" breeds are becoming fashionable with mutts the new "pure" breed. Perhaps ma's will suffer the same fate if it's not already the case.

[t_niehoff]

Ah, so then claiming to teach something because it is part of the original system is something which would be put forth by a theoretical non-fighter? So what would you consider Wing Chun or any other "standardized" martial art to be? What name to use now :confused:

As there is no such thing as a "system," how could you teach anything because it was part of "an original system"? :confused:

Don't look at martial arts or WCK as different from any other athletic activity. When you teach someone to play basketball or tennis -- to do any athletic acitivity -- there is no system, there is just that activity. When you teach someone to dribble a ball in basketball are you teaching them "part of an original system" or just teaching them how to platy basketball? A martial art isn't a system; it is *an activity*. Boxing isn't a system, it is an athletic activity. Since theoretical nonfighters never do the acitivity, the come up with the idea of systems. They never learn to play the "game" (the activity).

[Knifefighter]

Ah, so then claiming to teach something because it is part of the original system is something which would be put forth by a theoretical non-fighter? So what would you consider Wing Chun or any other "standardized" martial art to be? What name to use now :confused:

Names are just labels to help us identify and categorize things... but labels can never completly define something.

If a BJJ black belt makes use of Sambo leg locks, is he still a BJJ guy? And what happens if he start teaching those same leg locks as part of his BJJ curriculum because he knows they are effective? Is he still teaching BJJ?

And what about the FMA guy who prefers to take his stick fights to the ground and use BJJ and stick principles there? How do you name what he is doing? Or the FMA guy who combines fencing and boxing with FMA?

The things we call "styles" will aways morph and evolve into something else.

[t_niehoff]

Names are just labels to help us identify and categorize things... but labels can never completly define something.

The things we call "styles" will aways morph and evolve into something else.

Martial art styles are subsets of the greater game of fighting, like serve-and-volley is a subset of tennis.

[Knifefighter]

Don't look at martial arts or WCK as different from any other athletic activity. When you teach someone to play basketball or tennis -- to do any athletic acitivity -- there is no system, there is just that activity. When you teach someone to dribble a ball in basketball are you teaching them "part of an original system" or just teaching them how to platy basketball? A martial art isn't a system; it is *an activity*. Boxing isn't a system, it is an athletic activity. Since theoretical nonfighters never do the acitivity, the come up with the idea of systems. They never learn to play the "game" (the activity).

Most sports have coaches and players with different approaches, philosophies, strategies and tactics that could be labeled as separate and distinct systems.

Ali's style was completly different from Tyson's and each had completly different approaches to how he fought. I think you could call each of their approaces a "system."

I'm not a big basketball fan, but I believe coaches like Wooden and Jackson could be considered to have their own "systems".

Again, these are just labels that help to categorize and identify things to make life simpler and more predictable. Can you imagine if you wanted to start learning boxing but there was nothing to label boxing as such? In that case, you wouldn't know if you were going to learn to strike someone or put on a gi and choke them out because all combtive gyms would be labeled as just fighting gyms. You would never know if you were going into a gym that did forms dancing, boxing, or BJJ.

[Sihing73]

As there is no such thing as a "system," how could you teach anything because it was part of "an original system"? :confused:

Don't look at martial arts or WCK as different from any other athletic activity. When you teach someone to play basketball or tennis -- to do any athletic acitivity -- there is no system, there is just that activity. When you teach someone to dribble a ball in basketball are you teaching them "part of an original system" or just teaching them how to platy basketball? A martial art isn't a system; it is *an activity*. Boxing isn't a system, it is an athletic activity. Since theoretical nonfighters never do the acitivity, the come up with the idea of systems.

Hi Terrance,

Sorry but I would tend to disagree with you, of course I must be one of those theoretical nonfighters that keeps getting mentioned here ;) . You have to have some sort of standards in order to progress. If you decide you want to play basketball or some other "sport" then you need to train the fundementals. Different people may have different takes on how to do something but there has to be some sort of acceptable standard, thus some sort of "system". If you do not like that term then please provide me with another one.

The Romans and the Spartans had "systems" of combat which they discovered through trial and error to be effective. They also learned and adapted from their enemies so they continued to progress. MA today need to do the same but there is still a core to be adhered to.

My big question to you is what do you call Wing Chun, or any other art, if not a system?

[Knifefighter]

My big question to you is what do you call Wing Chun, or any other art, if not a system?

"Wing Chun" is a label that some people put on the categorization of certain techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies of fighting.

"Ving Tsun" is a slightly different label some people put on the categorization of slightly different techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies of fighting.

"Muay Thai" is a much different label some people put on the categorization of much different techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies of fighting.

"BJJ" is a completely different label some people put on the categorization of completely different techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies of fighting.

They are all just ways to identify different approaches to unarmed fighting.

[Sihing73]

Hi Dale,

An answer which in actuality answers nothing. So if I do Wing Chun I am doing a "label" rather than a system? A rose by any other name perhaps........

[Knifefighter]

Hi Dale,

An answer which in actuality answers nothing. So if I do Wing Chun I am doing a "label" rather than a system?

You are not doing either a label or a system. What you are "doing" is learning and utilizing specific types of techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies in relation to fighting.

These specific techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies are labeled as Wing Chun.

Labels (systems, in this case) are simply categorizations to help us define things in an attempt to make our lives simpler and more predictable.

Labeling something Wing Chun makes it easier for you to do all the things you want to do in relation to learning those specific techniques, principles, tactics, strategies, and philosophies... things such as finding a school, explaining to people what you do, moving to another school, finding training partners who do the same thing, finding supplemental teaching materials, etc.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Terrance,

Sorry but I would tend to disagree with you, of course I must be one of those theoretical nonfighters that keeps getting mentioned here ;) . You have to have some sort of standards in order to progress.


You don't need standards other than performance of the activity.



If you decide you want to play basketball or some other "sport" then you need to train the fundementals. Different people may have different takes on how to do something but there has to be some sort of acceptable standard, thus some sort of "system". If you do not like that term then please provide me with another one.


It's not the term, it's that this is not what is going on. There are no standards other than performance. If you teach someone to serve in tennis, you are not teaching him a certain way because it is a "standard", you are teaching him that way because it will increase his performance in serving. The fundamentals or basics aren't "standards" - which implies some objective or correct way of doing something - they are necessary parts of the activity. A forehand is a fundamental in tennis since you'd be hard-pressed to play tennis without one. But there is no standard or right way to hit a forehand; there are many different ways that are all effective. How do we know if a forehand is "good"? Performance.



The Romans and the Spartans had "systems" of combat which they discovered through trial and error to be effective. They also learned and adapted from their enemies so they continued to progress. MA today need to do the same but there is still a core to be adhered to.


People find different ways of teaching, different ways of training, and different ways of doing things. An approach isn't a system. Once it becomes a "system" it becomes locked and performance is no longer what guides us; then what guides us is adherence to that system. A system is a belief structure.



My big question to you is what do you call Wing Chun, or any other art, if not a system?

What would you call basketball or tennis if not a system? ;) I'd call WCK an activity. I *do* WCK. Just like I play basketball and tennis.

This is why the theoretical nonfighters love systems -- they are not doing the activity, so performance can't be their guide. Thus, they have "standards" as determined by "the system."

BTW, Dale, I agree with you about labels.

[Knifefighter]

People find different ways of teaching, different ways of training, and different ways of doing things. An approach isn't a system. Once it becomes a "system" it becomes locked and performance is no longer what guides us; then what guides us is adherence to that system. A system is a belief structure.

Hmmm... interesting and something to keep in mind in all aspects of life.



Thus, they have "standards" as determined by "the system."

Hmmmm again... I'm seeing this in some of the more money-oriented aspects of BJJ.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Wonder why I would only suck at WC." (Dale)


***I THINK AndrewS gave you a very good answer to that as regards Hawkins...and if you've been putting two-and-two together about Dan and Richard's wing chun knowledge/skill level back in the 70's/early 80's when you learned from them...

then you have the answers to your questions. They were using some wing chun principles (ie.- a centerline adapted to the boxing-like stance), and some techniques here-and-there...but they were clearly JKD fighters first and foremost.

Now let me relate to you what got Dan interested in meeting Moy Yat in the first place back in 1979 - and then you'll get an even clearer picture of just how much wing chun (or how little) Bruce had actually taught guys like Dan and Richard.

Myself and John Cheng (Moy 4) were good friends and very big Bruce Lee fans at the time...John was already a black belt in kenpo karate before he joined Moy Yat's school in early 1974...(I joined in May, 1975)....and we were both very impressed with Moy Yat's hands but the lack of footwork and longer range striking/kicking, etc...disturbed both of us.

And since the school was basically all about forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, and chi sao, and going out for dinner, and chi sao, and looking at Moy Yat's art work, and chi sao...

and just a little sparring here-and-there...with none of it being serious full contact....I approached John one day about working out privately once-a-week all geared up and ADDING BRUCE LEE'S JKD CONCEPTS AND FOOTWORK into the mix - and then turning on the more wing chun aspects of things once we got to very close range (ie.- what we were learning from Moy Yat).

And inside of about 6 months both of us really started to take a big leap in the right direction - with confidence growing, and a better understanding of what wing chun by itself is really all about (ie.- INFIGHTING...period).

As fate would have it - John's job at AT&T sent him to California for a week - directly across the street form the only JKD school there was at that time...Dan Inosanto's.

John got off work that Monday at 5 pm...walked across the street and introduced himself to Dan as a wing chun student of Moy Yat - and Dan invited him to work out with the class that night - which John proceeded to do every night that week - and Dan was very impressed with John's skill level - and especially his knowledge of wing chun infighting, chi sao, etc.

And then he wanted to meet Moy Yat.

As you may surmise - this story didn't have a happy ending...as Dan actually became a student of Moy Yat for about 6 months....at first Dan paid Moy Yat's planefare to come to California...and then about 5 months later Dan came to NYC and spent a week with us - which is how I met him.

He soon realized that there was a big gap between how John had tied it all together and what he was learning from Moy Yat - made even more frustrating because, like Hawkins, Moy Yat was very, shall we say...moody...about who he taught...how often he taught them...and how much he taught them.

[Knifefighter]

"Wonder why I would only suck at WC." (Dale)


***I THINK AndrewS gave you a very good answer to that as regards Hawkins...and if you've been putting two-and-two together about Dan and Richard's wing chun knowledge/skill level back in the 70's/early 80's when you learned from them...

then you have the answers to your questions. They were using some wing chun principles (ie.- a centerline adapted to the boxing-like stance), and some techniques here-and-there...but they were clearly JKD fighters first and foremost.

OK, so I learned from sucky WC teachers... so much for my training in WC. :eek:

Now that that's out of the way, who are the good teachers?
And which are the good fighters they have produced?

[t_niehoff]

In my view, the whole notion of "quality" of instructor being important has been blown all out of proportion. We like to think it matters. In reality, I don't think it really makes much of a difference in terms of performance. What really matters is whether you do the activity and the quality of opponent you do it against -- since this is where development comes from. But, of course, this is not something people making money off of WCK want anyone to believe.

This happened, IMO, for a couple of reasons. First, many people want a hero or role-model. So they want their "sifu" to be something special. Some people take advantage of this trait to sell WCK. Second, most people in WCK are theoretical nonfighters who don't view WCK as an activity but as a "system" of dogma or knowledge. But this is not the case -- there are just a few basics we do need to know to actually perform the activity (just like we need to know the basics of basketball to play the game). Once you have those basics, you are ready to "play" or do the activity (fight with WCK). Everything else is BS. And it is actually counter-productive to a person's development.

While a "good" instructor (someone who has done this himself and has experience playing the game with good people) can help a trainee -- like a good basketball player can help a poor one and shorten the learning/development curve, their role is often greatly over-emphasized. Principally they can help by pointing out "mistakes" in performance, and they can do this because they have the *experience* in performance themselves. But, for the most part, once someone has the basics, it really boils down to (1) the amount they play the game (in a combative art, fight) and (2) the quality of their opponents.

I always find these my-teacher-knows-and-your-teacher-sucks discussions amusing considering that almost all WCK instructors, with a very few exceptions, were theoretical nonfighters and while they certainly knew the forms and drills and theory -- especially the theory --- because they were theoretical nonfighters they could only have a superficial grasp of WCK. They had no significant experience doing WCK, fighting with it, especially not against good quality opponents. If they've never done it, how can they help you do it?

Even the "best" of them, the ones that fought using their WCK, were unfortunately not that much better -- as they didn't really face good opponents (other low-skilled high school students, for example) or traditionally "trained" people. One look at the famous "rooftop fights" will show you the low level of WCK.

In other words, by today's standards, they all sucked! So these sorts of discussions are more like your-teacher-sucked-more-than-my-teacher. ;)

If someone has the forms and the drills, they have the "basics" of the activity. You can get those basics from anyone. The hard work is putting it (your game) together and developing that game. You can't get that from an instructor. You only get taht from doing the activity. Someone that has a good game can help you to do that yourself, but they can't give it to you. I can show you the "elements" or basics of basketball. Does it matter who you learn basketball from? What matters is that you get out on the court and play -- a lot. And play against good players. In that way, you use your basics, you see how good people use their basics, from them you see your mistakes, etc. That's how you develop into a good player.

At least that's show you develop skill in every other atheltic activity: learn the basics and then let performance be your guide.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"OK, so I learned from sucky WC teachers... so much for my training in WC. :eek:

Now that that's out of the way, who are the good teachers?
And which are the good fighters they have produced?" (Dale)


***ONCE people start answering that question - all hell is going to break loose around here. :D :eek:

But look at it this way, since you're in California...go check out Ernie's teacher, Gary Lam (Wong Shun Leung lineage)....go check out Eric Oram (William Cheung lineage)...go check out AndrewS (Emin Boztepe lineage).

That would be a good start - if you're really interested.

[Knifefighter]

OK, so I learned from sucky WC teachers... so much for my training in WC. :eek:

And if you are stating that my WC was sub-par (which I am not necessarily disagreeing with, BTW), and this was at least in part because of the instruction I received, what does that say for you trying to learn grappling without an in-person instructor?

[Knifefighter]

But, for the most part, once someone has the basics, it really boils down to (1) the amount they play the game (in a combative art, fight) and (2) the quality of their opponents.

Hahahaha.... If that was the case, I should have become one of the best WC fighters in the world.

[t_niehoff]

Hahahaha.... If that was the case, I should have become one of the best WC fighters in the world.

I know you've put in the work and with good people, and if it was in using your WCK, then yes, you would be. Of course, that isn't a high accomplishment at the present time considering the overall state of things in WCK. ;)

It's like BJJ - or any grappling method (Catch included) - you need the basics and you need to spar (play the game) a lot against really good people. That's how you become a good grappler. Skill= fundamentals/basics + quality playing of the game. Can someone who has never really grappled very much and not with really good people help you become a good grappler? No. They can only have a superficial grasp of the game. But someone who is a good grappler, which only comes from the experience grappling against good people, can help you. And all they can do is expedite your learning curve by sharing their *experience* (playing the game).

Gotta run.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Easy answer, Dale...because there's so few people who know catch available - so I'm content to get about 99% of my catch instruction from their vids...and why is that?

Because although there's much to be learned from things like BJJ, sambo, judo, etc...(and I do steal some things here-and-there)...

my research and observations through many DECADES brought me to the belief that catch as catch can wrestling has more answers to grappling than any other single grappling method.

And keep in mind that catch IS Greco-Roman...and ancient Greek Pankration....and various European and American folk styles of wrestling...but synthesized into a more modern up-to-date form that emphaizes various submissions - supplemented by ripping techniques such as gouges, elbow strikes, knee strikes, hair pulls, fish hooks, etc.

Now I realize that my taking your bait now opens up a new chapter on this thread wherein we could go back-and-forth for weeks about BJJ/Catch...and you can start telling me that I need to get out more and participate in grappling tournies...and whatever else gets thrown into the mix...

but hey - things were getting kind of boring around here anyway. :rolleyes: :)

[t_niehoff]

Easy answer, Dale...because there's so few people who know catch available - so I'm content to get about 99% of my catch instruction from their vids...and why is that?

Because although there's much to be learned from things like BJJ, sambo, judo, etc...(and I do steal some things here-and-there)...

my research and observations through many DECADES brought me to the belief that catch as catch can wrestling has more answers to grappling than any other single grappling method.


If that were the case, you'd expect to see Catch guys dominating, or at the very least being well-represented, in grappling events. That, of course, isn't the case.

Beginners, and that is what you are when it comes to grappling, can't make broad informed, knowledgeable conclusions about what is or is not good, bad, better, etc. - particularly about methods that you have little to no experience with.

Moreover, the truth of the matter is the method you train in, judo, BJJ, sambo, Catch, etc. is much less significant in terms of a person's overall progress (in terms of skill development) than the quality (skill level) of people he grapples against regularly. Even if I thought sambo was "better" than judo (which I don't) but there was no good sambo school near me but there was a very good judo school, I'd be at the judo school - since rolling with good people is the only way to develop into a good grappler.



And keep in mind that catch IS Greco-Roman...and ancient Greek Pankration....and various European and American folk styles of wrestling...but synthesized into a more modern up-to-date form that emphaizes various submissions - supplemented by ripping techniques such as gouges, elbow strikes, knee strikes, hair pulls, fish hooks, etc.


And a person's ability to pull off any of those things is predicated on his grappling ability -- a poor grappler trying to fish hook won't beat a good grappler.



Now I realize that my taking your bait now opens up a new chapter on this thread wherein we could go back-and-forth for weeks about BJJ/Catch...and you can start telling me that I need to get out more and participate in grappling tournies...and whatever else gets thrown into the mix...

but hey - things were getting kind of boring around here anyway. :rolleyes: :)

There is nothing wrong with Catch, just like there is nothing wrong with sambo or judo or whatever. Skill comes from rolling with really good grapplers, not from your method. Can you learn from tapes? Sure. If you are rolling with really good grapplers. It's not your choice of grappling method that's at issue IMO, its that you aren't rolling with good people that is self-limiting and will prevent you from getting past a certain point. *If* you got out and rolled with some good people, at open mat nights or tournaments or whatever, that experience would broaden your view.

[Ultimatewingchun]

First of all, Terence...you're in no position to know the quality of the guys I wrestle/grapple with. I have a student who is 25 years younger than me - and 15 lbs. heavier...with some wrestling in his background - and who's gotten very good over the last 2.5 years that he's been with me in catch strategies, tactics, and submissions - who gives me a seriously hard time every time we roll - which is once every week...and then there's my most senior student who was a trained wrestler also way back in the day before I ever met him - and when he occasionally comes to wrestling class - I suffer more fits trying to keep up with him...and then there's Brett - who I referred to earlier who has trained with David Adiv for about 3 years or so in BJJ - and when he occasionally comes to class I get to roll with him too.

And secondly. you're confusing me with somebody who thinks it's absolutely imperative that he spends a MAJOR part of his training time rolling with top notch grapplers from various schools/styles...

I'm not that guy...because my goal in a fight is to keep myself standing and put the other guy on the floor - and the guys I have around me (and have had for quite some time now)...are all excellent standup fighters - most of whom are at least 6 foot tall....and 4 out of the 6 guys (students) I'm thinking of are at least 200 lbs.

...with boxing backgrounds, wrestling backgrounds, karate, kick-boxing, and now...in the case of Brett - some BJJ.

So once again I invite you to read the following carefully - and then you'll better understand the philosophical differences (in terms of my approach to training and goals)...between myself and some other people.




I don't think it's a question of not wanting to go to the ground on a hard surface like concrete - it's a question of do you want to go to the ground at all?

And while it's true that you won't always have a choice about this, nonetheless, training so that he goes to the ground and you don't is the best option in real life fighting....and should always be looked upon as Plan A, imo.

Which means you train very hard at trying to end fights with punches, kicks, elbow strikes, knees, a standing choke or face lock/neck crank, a standing double wristlock and throw...or hard throws or sweeps followed by one or two punches or kicks to vulnerable targets, etc.

Plan B...you both go down but you land on him. And then try to quickly finish with strikes or a crippling submission that you seriously crank.

Plan C....he lands on top of you and you IMMEDIATELY work to get out from underneath - and preferably back up to your feet.

Plan D...because the circumstances of the fight has dictated it - you're down in a scramble and will have to work everything you know to get control - whether you've got a top position or underneath somewhere...and hopefully either end it down there with strikes or nasty submission or manage to get back up to your feet.

And although I don't have the ring/cage/octagon experience that some of you might have - I've had dozens of streetfights in my life, including two within the last 6 years - and I can tell you that what I've described above as Plan A through D makes the most sense to me after all this time (I'm 56 now).

In fact, the last fight (about 5 months ago) went the way of me bringing the guy down (when I really didn't have to)...punched his face three times and was ready to finish with an arm lock (when he tried to gouge my eye his far arm came up to my face)...which I was going to take all the way home when someone standing over me intervened...

and luckily it was just a do-good stranger.

It could have been a friend of his...:eek:

My bad. I took the fight to the ground when it didn't have to go there. Big mistake in real fighting, imo. Since then I've re-thought quite a few things about the advantages and disadvantages of going to the ground...

and have decided that Plan A is where I should spend at least 50% of my training time working with - and divide the remaining 50% amoungst B through D.

[t_niehoff]

First of all, Terence...you're in no position to know the quality of the guys I wrestle/grapple with. I have a student who is 25 years younger than me - and 15 lbs. heavier...with some wrestling in his background - and who's gotten very good over the last 2.5 years that he's been with me in catch strategies, tactics, and submissions - who gives me a seriously hard time every time we roll - which is once every week...and then there's my most senior student who was a trained wrestler also way back in the day before I ever met him - and when he occasionally comes to wrestling class - I suffer more fits trying to keep up with him...and then there's Brett - who I referred to earlier who has trained with David Adiv for about 3 years or so in BJJ - and when he occasionally comes to class I get to roll with him too.


I'm not trying to put down your guys. But rolling with some people who wrestled (I've rolled against ex-Div.1 wreslters -- one of my guys is an ex Div. 1 wreslter - and I know quite a few BJJ guys that wrestled in college too) or have had 3 years BJJ training (blue belt level) is very different from rolling with purples, browns and blacks -- thesee guys have awesome games. You learn more and develop faster working with really good people.



And secondly. you're confusing me with somebody who thinks it's absolutely imperative that he spends a MAJOR part of his training time rolling with top notch grapplers from various schools/styles...


Clearly I am not confusing you with that guy! That would be someone who wanted to develop a good ground game.



I'm not that guy...because my goal in a fight is to keep myself standing and put the other guy on the floor - and the guys I have around me (and have had for quite some time now)...are all excellent standup fighters - most of whom are at least 6 foot tall....and 4 out of the 6 guys (students) I'm thinking of are at least 200 lbs.


The ground is not my first choice either. For someone who doesn't want to hit the ground, to get there would probably mean that you were taken down -- which means you are on the bottom, which means you should be spending most of your time working your bottom game (and trying to get up). Regardless of what you want in terms of ground, you get it from working with good people.



...with boxing backgrounds, wrestling backgrounds, karate, kick-boxing, and now...in the case of Brett - some BJJ.

So once again I invite you to read the following carefully - and then you'll better understand the philosophical differences (in terms of my approach to training and goals)...between myself and some other people.

I read it. It'a nice strategy. But it takes skills to use any strategy. And what I'm talking about is developing the skills, the game. Sometimes, when you get taken down, you're in a half-guard. It's not as easy as "get up as fast as you can" -- good people can make that really difficult. How do you get better at getting up? By trying to do it against good people, the best you can find. In the meantime, while you are in h-g, you better have a h-g game. That's the reality of it.

[Liddel]

Ive always thought that fighting tech's and mindsets are not only useful for fighting but also for things in everyday life....

I see that this is true - because in this thread some have been baited into others 'discussional' ranges and are getting picked apart :p

Stick and move guys - dont get stuck playing someone elses game - fighting or otherwise :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

'It'a nice strategy.'' (T)

***I KNOW.

"But it takes skills to use any strategy." (T)

***AND I have skills.

"And what I'm talking about is developing the skills, the game. Sometimes, when you get taken down, you're in a half-guard. It's not as easy as 'get up as fast as you can' -- good people can make that really difficult." (T)

***FIRST you've got to take me down AND PUT ME ON MY BACK...and furthermore good people can make it difficult for other people to keep them down.

"And how do you get better at getting up? By trying to do it against good people, the best you can find." (T)

***GETTING better at it with the people I have is good enough - I don't need to "go find" the best people out there - Let them come find me and first put me down on my back before I knock them out, or down, and put them in a standing sub - then I'll worry about it.

.....................

Anything can be turned around, Liddell...:) :cool:


.....especially when you know you're being underestimated by people who don't really know you. ;)

[Knifefighter]

my research and observations through many DECADES brought me to the belief that catch as catch can wrestling has more answers to grappling than any other single grappling method.

OK, I'll bite. Since you have done all this research, maybe you can compare and constrast Catch to Judo, Sambo, and BJJ and show how Catch has more grappling "answers" than these other styles.

[Knifefighter]

***AND I have skills.

I have a student who is 25 years younger than me - and 15 lbs. heavier...with some wrestling in his background - and who's gotten very good over the last 2.5 years that he's been with me in catch strategies, tactics, and submissions - who gives me a seriously hard time every time we roll - which is once every week..

You are having trouble with a guy who only outweighs you by 15 lbs and has been training for less than three years... and once a week at that.

Methinks you have fewer grappling skills than you think.

[t_niehoff]

'It'a nice strategy.'' (T)

***I KNOW.


There are lots of nice strategies.



"But it takes skills to use any strategy." (T)

***AND I have skills.


No doubt. Everyone has skills -- but the big question is the level of those skills, and how to increase that level. We increase our skill level by working with better people.



"And what I'm talking about is developing the skills, the game. Sometimes, when you get taken down, you're in a half-guard. It's not as easy as 'get up as fast as you can' -- good people can make that really difficult." (T)

***FIRST you've got to take me down AND PUT ME ON MY BACK...and furthermore good people can make it difficult for other people to keep them down.


Of course, but it is all a matter of degree of skill. I've met some TCMA people who believed they could not be taken down (I guess their students never could do it). Five minutes with a Div. 1 wreslter taking them down at will can open their eyes. It sure opened mine!

Here's the thing, when I meet people who are working with really good people, they almost never make those kinds of statements because from that experience they know better. If you went to Matt Serra's or Renzo's there would be lots of people who could take you down, hold you down with ease, and submit you just as easily. Why? Because they are much higher skilled that you. No slight to you intended (but they have world-class people there). From a common sense POV, who do you think you'll learn more and develop more with, working with your lower skilled people or working with really good people?

In a sense, it's like lifting weights: you can work with low poundage weights and do lots of reps and it will make you stronger -- to a point. But after that point, you just aren't getting the sort of resistance you need to grow. You need heavier weights.

What it boils down to is this: you are only as good as your training partners. The level of your training partners is the "resistance" we need to grow.



"And how do you get better at getting up? By trying to do it against good people, the best you can find." (T)

***GETTING better at it with the people I have is good enough - I don't need to "go find" the best people out there - Let them come find me and first put me down on my back before I knock them out, or down, and put them in a standing sub - then I'll worry about it.


You seem to be approaching this as some sort of challenge ("JUST LET THEM TRY")instead of training to be a better fighter. It's easy to say to yourself "I don't need that" when you haven't experienced the need for it. I see this all the time in TMAists. But they keep avoiding the experience that would show them the need! As I said, if you went to an open mat night at a good grappling school, you'd see the need. And by doing so, what have you got to lose?

BTW, one drill we do as a functional warm up (that I stole from Matt Thornton) is to have one guy take a tight closed guard, his objective once the exercise begins is simply to get up and get away while his partner's objective is to keep him on the floor (not pass his guard or anything, just keep him down). If the trainee does get away, they simply reverse roles and go again. It's a lot of fun.



.....................

Anything can be turned around, Liddell...:) :cool:


.....especially when you know you're being underestimated by people who don't really know you. ;)

How can someone know their true level in grappling if they don't roll with good people?

A person's grappling skill does not depend on whether they do Catch or BJJ or sambo or judo; it depends upon how much time they've put into *quality rolling* (rolling with good grapplers).

[Knifefighter]

I don't think it's a question of not wanting to go to the ground on a hard surface like concrete - it's a question of do you want to go to the ground at all?.

Depends…

If you are naturally good at it…
and you have a lot of training there…
and you are comfortable there…
and you have developed a variety of strategies and tactics for doing so…
and you have done so successfully in a variety of situations against a variety of opponents…

Then of course you do.

Most people who say “you don’t want to go to the ground in a street fight” have very little experience in ground work. This being the case, of course, they don’t want to be there... it will be like trying to swim without ever learning how to swim in the first place. They don’t understand that a good ground fighter has just as much, if not a better, chance of prevailing on the ground as a good standup person does standing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Go reread that old thread a few years ago that you started - putting catch down - that went on for months-and-months...if you want to refresh your memory as to why I think catch has more answers, Dale....


But hey, listen guys...here's what I suggest the two of you do in the meantime: You have a girlfriend? A wife?

Start taking her out dancing....nothing fast that can get you get agitated....slow dancing would be best :) ...and then the next night: a comedy club....nothing too raunchy (again: the object is to avoid agitation)...the following night: a meditation class....

and under no circumstances should you be drinking any caffeine or hard liquor.

How about a nice bottle of Cabernet? :rolleyes: :p

(And bring her flowers). :D :cool:

[Knifefighter]

Go reread that old thread a few years ago that you started - putting catch down - that went on for months-and-months...if you want to refresh your memory as to why I think catch has more answers, Dale....


But hey, listen guys...here's what I suggest the two of you do in the meantime: You have a girlfriend? A wife?

Start taking her out dancing....nothing fast that can get you get agitated....slow dancing would be best :) ...and then the next night: a comedy club....nothing too raunchy (again: the object is to avoid agitation)...the following night: a meditation class....

and under no circumstances should you be drinking any caffeine or hard liquor.

How about a nice bottle of Cabernet? :rolleyes: :p

(And bring her flowers). :D :cool:


Bwahahahahaaa!!!

This is coming from someone who beats people up on the subway because he doesn't like how loudly they talk.....

OK, I'll remember to take your advice.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Every saint has a past - and every sinner has a future. :D :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

What's interesting is that Victor accepts that a person needs to spar to develop skill, yet apparently doesn't accept that the quality of that sparring is all that important! A unique perspective. I guess that means because I can now just confine my rolling to white belts -- it's sure a lot easier than dealing with those pesky blues and purples, not to mention browns/blacks -- and develop a good game. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Some guys are too insecure to take the ego bashing it takes to get good.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Please stop by my school sometime, Terence.

Any Monday 7-9 pm....any Wedneday 7-9 pm....any Saturday (12-3pm).

The next time you're in NYC.

After reading your posts for a few years now - I think it's time for me to admit that I might need some instruction from you.

1302 Avenue H....Brooklyn, NY (corner of East 13 Street).

You don't even have to give me any advance notice - just show up. ;)

[stricker]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

:d

[unkokusai]

(I've rolled against ex-Div.1 wreslters -- one of my guys is an ex Div. 1 wreslter - and I know quite a few BJJ guys that wrestled in college too.





Oh, those dudes are crazy-bad mofos!

[unkokusai]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

:d



But which one will pull a Rudy?

[Mr Punch]

BTW, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-SltgKQHDU) are some unknown cans fighting on tiles. Just for the archive.

[t_niehoff]

Please stop by my school sometime, Terence.

Any Monday 7-9 pm....any Wedneday 7-9 pm....any Saturday (12-3pm).

The next time you're in NYC.

After reading your posts for a few years now - I think it's time for me to admit that I might need some instruction from you.

1302 Avenue H....Brooklyn, NY (corner of East 13 Street).

You don't even have to give me any advance notice - just show up. ;)

If I'm ever in NYC I'll be happy to meet with you. Maybe we can both go down to Renzo's or Matt's and learn something. :)

One of the main reasons MMA fighters get so good is that they are very open-minded and willing to meet/train with anyone good who can help them increase their performance. The I-already-have/know-the-superior-stuff-and-don't-need-anything-else view is so rooted in the belief -structure of the TMAs. People who get out and cross-train (spar) with good people in other methods will not have that view; they'll know better from experience.

I know that sometimes I come off as arrogant, but I'm not at all. How can anyone be arrogant who is getting their ass-kicked routinely like I am (and I'll admit it)? When I first began BJJ, some of my guys came to watch me roll and saw me get tapped out by a girl! They still kid me about it (asking me if I'm still ducking her). So my attitude is not that I'm so great -- I *know* that I'm not -- but rather my attitude is most people in the TMAs, including WCK, are not nearly so good as they believe they are. I know from experience the kinds of things anyone and everyone has to do to get good (because every single person I've seen who is good, i.e., has good fighting skills, has done those things, regardless of their martial art).

Even your "Catch" heroes have cross-trained (everyone in MMA cross-trains) with top-level BJJ guys; didn't Sak even go train with Chute Boxe? (Wanderlei is a BJJ BB now, btw). Alan, who has trained in Catch works on his ground game with Millis, a BJJ BB. Catch, sambo, judo, BJJ, etc. are all good methods, but skill doesn't come from the method but the training you do. The Gracies are right when they say, "You only get as good as your training (sparring) partners." That is an iron-pipe truth.

[chisauking]

Terrence sez: I know that sometimes I come off as arrogant, but I'm not at all. How can anyone be arrogant who is getting their ass-kicked routinely like I am (and I'll admit it)? When I first began BJJ, some of my guys came to watch me roll and saw me get tapped out by a girl! They still kid me about it (asking me if I'm still ducking her). So my attitude is not that I'm so great -- I *know* that I'm not -- but rather my attitude is most people in the TMAs, including WCK, are not nearly so good as they believe they are.

One has to question the worth of your suggestions. If you are so poor that you routinely get beaten, why are you constantly advocating your losing methods?

Would any parents send their children to a school that rountinely fares poorly at what they suppose to teach?

Would you learn from a driving instructor that routinely crashes the car?

[Knifefighter]

One has to question the worth of your suggestions. If you are so poor that you routinely get beaten, why are you constantly advocating your losing methods?

Would any parents send their children to a school that rountinely fares poorly at what they suppose to teach?

Would you learn from a driving instructor that routinely crashes the car?

He means that he is always seeking out people who are better than him to train with... that's how one gets better.

The myth of the invincible, unbeatable instructor is just that... a myth.




Would any parents send their children to a school that rountinely fares poorly at what they suppose to teach?

Would you learn from a driving instructor that routinely crashes the car?

Good teachers regularly take seminars and continuing education classes from people who know more about a specific area than they do.

Sparring and getting beaten by better people is the equivalent to that for fighters.

[Merryprankster]

One has to question the worth of your suggestions. If you are so poor that you routinely get beaten, why are you constantly advocating your losing methods?

1. If you aren't routinely getting beaten (ie, you're the best guy in your school), it's time to find a new school. You are going to have a hard time getting better there. Which is what he's advocating - go find people who CAN beat you.

2. If you've ever taken BJJ, you'll know that getting tapped out by a chick, if you have no prior experience, is definitely on the table.


Would any parents send their children to a school that rountinely fares poorly at what they suppose to teach?

Ah, and how do we determine if the school is any good? By TESTING the students, specifically against their ability to deal with progressively harder material. See above...


Would you learn from a driving instructor that routinely crashes the car?

A red herring here. A person who consistently loses may simply be testing themselves/competing against way better competition. This is, in fact, what the Avellan bros did, as I recall. They were brand new to the submission aspect of the grappling game and consistenly entered the absolutely toughest divisions at each tournament. They lost alot.

They don't lose any more.

[t_niehoff]

One has to question the worth of your suggestions. If you are so poor that you routinely get beaten, why are you constantly advocating your losing methods?


Both MP and KF have answered this -- and that's not surprising since they both have the experience (more than I have, I'm sure) so that they understand what I'm talking about. And it's not surprising that you don't understand what I'm talking about either -- since you lack that experience and are caught up in the TMA belief-structure.

FWIW, I'm not saying that I am poorly skilled (certainly I have more skills than any theoretician nonfighter around), just that I train with really good people, the best I can find. I get beaten up all the time because this is what happens to everyone who fights and trains to fight, even recreationally like me. If you go to any place where fighters train you'll see it for yourself.

But I already answered your question -- I know because there is a commonality in training among all good fighters, regardless of their style/art/method. I am not saying that people concerned with developing skill should practice that way because I say so or because I am their role model (God forbid!) but because this is what all the really good people do to develop skill. It's blatantly obvious for anyone who isn't wearing the blinders of the TMA belief-structure.

On the other hand, if developing skill in WCK (fighting) isn't your objective/interest or if you want to forever suck in terms of skill, then train like those people who don't have skill -- the traditional guys, the masters and grandmasters, the theoretical nonfighters. They've spent a lot of time, often generations, developing better and better ways of not developing skill, adding layers upon layers of silly theory, supporting it all with fake history, and lately appeals to being "scientific". They even recently created forms competitions, chi sao competitions, etc. for people in this group.

[Knifefighter]

I have found there is a sub-group of guys in BJJ... these are the guys who only roll hard against people who aren't as good as good as them. Whenever they go against someone who is better, they are suddenly "just coming back from an injury and have to take it easy, taking a rest day, or have to sit this one out". These people progress very slowly compared to those who spar against better people.

Even (and especially) those who are at the top of their game seek out those who are better, or at least as good, to train against.

Good people also get caught by their lesser skilled training partners because they are constantly putting themselves in disadvantaged situations to make their training harder.

[chisauking]

I'm happy for all you fighters who are constantly getting beat in order to improve yourself........Lets just hope that not all of you are invalids by the time that you really should need your skills for real. Lets hope that you still have the health to apply yourself efficiently despite all the injuries that you would have surely accumulated over the years of getting beaten.

Just one last question: if you are saying you are constantly getting beaten up by better people than yourself in order to improve, surely you must be near the top now after all the years of being beaten up? On the other hand, if you are constantly and routinely getting beaten up and you are still no-where near the top after all these years, surely you must now question the validitiy of your 'getting beaten up in order to improve method'?

Maybe all those 'beatings' have gone to your head?

Over 1000s of years the Chinese understood the importance of preserving ones health during the pratice of a system designed to protect one's health.

In your moment of genuis you have come up with a far superior method: getting beaten up in order to improve. Cheers! Carry on with the good work.

[Knifefighter]

In your moment of genuis you have come up with a far superior method: getting beaten up in order to improve. Cheers! Carry on with the good work.

That's the difference between the pretend fantasy guys and the people who train for real... people who train for real know that the bar is always rising and there are always going to be people out there who are better.

The pretend, fantasy guys think that one day they will be the best in the world (and a lot of them already think that) if they just keep doing their chi saos, forms, and pretend wooden dummy training.

That's why the pretend, fantasy guys need the theoretical model. Their egos are not strong enough imagine that no matter how long they (or, even worse, their masters and grandmasters) train, there will always be quite a number of people who are better. Not to mention the ego hits that would have to happen if they trained against skilled, resisting opponents.

[chisauking]

Dale sez: That's the difference between the pretend fantasy guys and the people who train for real... people who train for real know that the bar is always rising and there are always going to be people out there who are better.

1) If there's always people better than you, what are you training for? You may as well accept that and move on.

2) Fantasy and real people -- which one are you? If you claim to be the later, why are you testing your skills in a controlled environment?

3) If your group is genuinely, constantly searching for people that can beat you, why aren't you all dead or seriously injured? Or........world champions by now? Surely after all the beatings you would be champion by now if your method had any merits? Maybe its because your group isn't trying very hard at all. After all, theres only so many world-class clubs for you people to challenge.

[Knifefighter]

1) If there's always people better than you, what are you training for? You may as well accept that and move on.

Really? You think one's motivation should only be if he can be better than everyone else in the world? That's a good one... a true theoretical fighter statement if I ever heard one. If that were the case, most people shouldn't bother training at all.


2) Fantasy and real people -- which one are you? If you claim to be the later, why are you testing your skills in a controlled environment?

Controlled environments let you develop your skills. Whatever one's "real" environment, should also be a place for testing.


If your group is genuinely, constantly searching for people that can beat you, why aren't you all dead or seriously injured?

Getting beaten doesn't mean you are dead or seriously injured, although most of us have had our share of injuries... injuries happen to be part of the prince you pay for getting better in fighting.



Or........world champions by now? Surely after all the beatings you would be champion by now if your method had any merits? Maybe its because your group isn't trying very hard at all. After all, theres only so many world-class clubs for you people to challenge.

Not everyone can become world champion... however, all world champions train this way.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know that sometimes I come off as arrogant, but I'm not at all. How can anyone be arrogant who is getting their ass-kicked routinely like I am (and I'll admit it)? When I first began BJJ, some of my guys came to watch me roll and saw me get tapped out by a girl!" (Terence)


****SO THE GUY who makes post-after-post-after post wherein about 99% of his remarks are meant to cut everybody down....is now telling us that...as a fighter...he basically....SUCKS. :eek: :rolleyes:

................

"I'm not saying that I am poorly skilled (certainly I have more skills than any theoretician nonfighter around), just that I train with really good people, the best I can find. I get beaten up all the time because this is what happens to everyone who fights and trains to fight, even recreationally like me." (Terence)


***I SEE....so you don't really suck so much as that the people you work out with are just soooo much better than you - and certainly better than any of the people the rest of us are working out with - is that right? :rolleyes:

Please DO stop by my school sometime, Terence....because I'd like to add about 4-5 other people to your list...starting with myself.

You see, Terence....I've come to believe that you are totally full of 5hit. :p

[t_niehoff]

Dale sez: That's the difference between the pretend fantasy guys and the people who train for real... people who train for real know that the bar is always rising and there are always going to be people out there who are better.

1) If there's always people better than you, what are you training for? You may as well accept that and move on.


Pardon me, but what a moronic question! Why grow, why learn, why develop yourself if someone will always be better? If that is your POV, you should crawl into a hole and hide because someone is always going to be better.

For me, it's the challenge -- I enjoy the challenge. I know that I'll never be a world-class fighter in BJJ or in WCK. Those aren't my goals. My goal is to develop to my full potential and to have fun doing it. The fun and the challenge I find is in the doing, in the rolliing, in the fighting.



2) Fantasy and real people -- which one are you? If you claim to be the later, why are you testing your skills in a controlled environment?


Because the only way to truly test your skills is in a controlled environment.



3) If your group is genuinely, constantly searching for people that can beat you, why aren't you all dead or seriously injured? Or........world champions by now? Surely after all the beatings you would be champion by now if your method had any merits? Maybe its because your group isn't trying very hard at all. After all, theres only so many world-class clubs for you people to challenge.

Injuries are part of the price of developing fighting skill. I don't know anyone who trains as a fighter who hasn't been at least moderately injured (my most serious injury was a dislocated knee; and I trained while wearing a cast!). But we're not trying to kill or seriously injure one another; we use protective equipment, maintain good levels of conditioning, etc.

Fighting, whether WCK or BJJ or MMA or whatever, is no different than any other athletic activity. Why do athletes push themselves? Why don't all athletes become world champion?

[Knifefighter]

****SO THE GUY who makes post-after-post-after post wherein about 99% of his remarks are meant to cut everybody down....is now telling us that...as a fighter...he basically....SUCKS. :eek: :rolleyes:

I think what he is saying is that many people with whom he trains are better than he is.



***I SEE....so you don't really suck so much as that the people you work out with are just soooo much better than you - and certainly better than any of the people the rest of us are working out with - is that right? :rolleyes:

Please DO stop by my school sometime, Terence....because I'd like to add about 4-5 other people to your list...starting with myself.

I don't know what his training experience is or where he trains, but if Terrence has been training for more than just a few years and regularly trains with a variety of skilled guys in different settings, the chances are he is going to be better than the guys who only train in their own schools and only against each other. This goes double if he regularly competes or trains with people who do.

And he will be light years ahead of the theoretical guys who never actually go hard.

[t_niehoff]

"I know that sometimes I come off as arrogant, but I'm not at all. How can anyone be arrogant who is getting their ass-kicked routinely like I am (and I'll admit it)? When I first began BJJ, some of my guys came to watch me roll and saw me get tapped out by a girl!" (Terence)


****SO THE GUY who makes post-after-post-after post wherein about 99% of his remarks are meant to cut everybody down....is now telling us that...as a fighter...he basically....SUCKS. :eek: :rolleyes:


I'm not trying to cut anyone down -- I'm trying to point out that if anyone wants to develop significant skills, then we should look at how the really good people train, and they all train pretty much the same way regardless of their style. And no one who doesn't train that way has ever demonstrated significant fighting skill.

When I began BJJ I got tapped by a girl (blue belt who caught me in a triangle). BFD. I cross train where ever I can with the best people I can find. Do they beat me. Yup. My point is that I don't let my ego get in the way of my training. My students saw me tap to the girl; they've seen me get whipped sparring; they've seen me get taken down by good wrestlers; etc.. To them it's no BFD. This is what everyone who wants to develop and be good must go through. Merryprankster and Knifefighter knew what I was talking about - how come you didnt?



................

"I'm not saying that I am poorly skilled (certainly I have more skills than any theoretician nonfighter around), just that I train with really good people, the best I can find. I get beaten up all the time because this is what happens to everyone who fights and trains to fight, even recreationally like me." (Terence)


***I SEE....so you don't really suck so much as that the people you work out with are just soooo much better than you - and certainly better than any of the people the rest of us are working out with - is that right? :rolleyes:


Dude, I don't know who you are working out with. If someone is a theoretical nonfighter -- and I'm not saying you are, but I don't know what you do -- they are not fighting at all, so they can have very little in terms of fighting skill. That's all I mean.

Go down to Renzo's or Matt's and you will find lots of people who are way better than you. No slight intended -- they'd be way better than me too. But if you went and trained there, you'd be getting your ass kicked all the time too. If you don't beleive me, take the trip.



Please DO stop by my school sometime, Terence....because I'd like to add about 4-5 other people to your list...starting with myself.

You see, Terence....I've come to believe that you are totally full of 5hit. :p

My point was just that one reason MMA fighters are so good is that they seek out the best people they can find to train with. As I said, the Gracies have a saying, "You are only as good as your training (sparring) partners. I have tried to do the same. When you do that, you will find yourself getting beat up a lot of the time. In my view, if someone isn't getting beaten up most of the time, they are training with the wrong people -- as they are not getting pushed to their limit. You can think I'm full of sh1t -- but if you go talk with some good fighters, I'll bet they pretty much say what I'm saying.

[anerlich]

I'm happy for all you fighters who are constantly getting beat in order to improve yourself........Lets just hope that not all of you are invalids by the time that you really should need your skills for real. Lets hope that you still have the health to apply yourself efficiently despite all the injuries that you would have surely accumulated over the years of getting beaten.


I seem to remember you advocating full power shots to floating ribs, kidneys, and the like without protective equipment on a thread a while back, in the name of "keepin' it real".

If that was you, maybe you should be more worried about how your concerns pertain to yourself.

[unkokusai]

I'm happy for all you fighters who are constantly getting beat in order to improve yourself........Lets just hope that not all of you are invalids by the time that you really should need your skills for real. Lets hope that you still have the health to apply yourself efficiently despite all the injuries that you would have surely accumulated over the years of getting beaten.
.

........................................

Pvssy.

[chisauking]

Really? You think one's motivation should only be if he can be better than everyone else in the world? That's a good one... a true theoretical fighter statement if I ever heard one. If that were the case, most people shouldn't bother training at all.

If your 'mental atitute' is there's always someone better than you, then you already lost half the battle. You keep thinking that, Dale.



Controlled environments let you develop your skills. Whatever one's "real" environment, should also be a place for testing.

I agree, but lets not call it 'fighting' like some people do here. There's places to fight and there's places to 'spar'


Getting beaten doesn't mean you are dead or seriously injured, although most of us have had our share of injuries... injuries happen to be part of the prince you pay for getting better in fighting.

Then I suppose Terrence's defination of getting 'beaten' is ambigious. Or maybe he's just exagerating his opponent's ability. Or maybe he doesn't mean 'fighting' but friendly BJJ rolling -- in which case I would not define it as 'fighting'


Not everyone can become world champion... however, all world champions train this way.

What you mean is, most sports champions train this way.

Over the years, Terrence has nothing but constantly put others down and rubbished people who don't agree with his method of fight, fight, fight. All I'm interested in is results, so I'm questioning his method in the same way he questions others. My question is, if his way was so much better, why is he 'routinely' getting beaten? If a boxer constantly criticise and laugh at other training methods, then gets beaten in the ring on a regular basis himself, would we not question the effectiveness of his training methods?

[chisauking]

Anerlick sez: I seem to remember you advocating full power shots to floating ribs, kidneys, and the like without protective equipment on a thread a while back, in the name of "keepin' it real".

There's a world of difference between 'rountinely' being beaten and training realistically. If you are being beaten on a regular basis, then you shouldn't be fighting yet........Unless you believe in the 'getting beaten up to improve approach'

Go ahead, I'm not stopping you. Let me know if you need any help in this approach, I would gladly give you a helping 'hand'

[chisauking]

Terrence sez: Injuries are part of the price of developing fighting skill. I don't know anyone who trains as a fighter who hasn't been at least moderately injured (my most serious injury was a dislocated knee; and I trained while wearing a cast!). But we're not trying to kill or seriously injure one another; we use protective equipment, maintain good levels of conditioning, etc.

I understand that injuries can and do occur in wing chun, but if it happends on a 'regualr' basis, I would question my training methods. After all, most people learn a self defence system to proctect oneself...not to inflict pain and damage to oneself. Maybe thats what you call 'upside down' wing chun? Saves the thug doing the work.


Fighting, whether WCK or BJJ or MMA or whatever, is no different than any other athletic activity. Why do athletes push themselves? Why don't all athletes become world champion?

Yes, but not up to the point where they are 'routinely' injuring themselves.

As I have said to Anerlick, you are most welcome to your method. But now people know the 'effectiveness' and efficiency of your method, I think most will leave you to it.

Carry on with the good work!

[t_niehoff]

Controlled environments let you develop your skills. Whatever one's "real" environment, should also be a place for testing.

I agree, but lets not call it 'fighting' like some people do here. There's places to fight and there's places to 'spar'


The notion of a "real fight" (as opposed, I guess, to a nonreal fight?) is part of the theoretical nonfighters belief structure. The same goes for the street vs. sport crowd. Only people with little to no experience fighting think this way.

The crux of the matter is that people should be concerned with developing realistic skills -- skills that work in realistic situations (against a genuinely resisting opponent with high levels of aggression, attributes, and skill). Realistic skills will work in any realistic situation, street, cage, gym, whatever. The only way to develop those realistic skills is by training realistically (against genuinely resisting opponents with high levels of aggression, attributes, and skill). Do people really think that they have the ability to stop a punch on the street but that this skill goes away in the gym or in a cage?

Controlled environments not only permit us to train realistically, but test our skills with minimum chances of injury (which is important since the more you are injured, the less you can train). Also, only in controlled environments can you really measure performance -- because they are fair fights, you know the level of the opponent's skill, there aren't any intervening factors (like by-standers, weapons,e tc.). If you beat some guy in a streetfight, what does that say about your skill levle? Nothing. Maybe you were lucky, maybe he was drunk, we don't know his skill level, etc. But in a controlled environment, we can - through consistent performance - measure our skill.




Getting beaten doesn't mean you are dead or seriously injured, although most of us have had our share of injuries... injuries happen to be part of the prince you pay for getting better in fighting.

Then I suppose Terrence's defination of getting 'beaten' is ambigious. Or maybe he's just exagerating his opponent's ability. Or maybe he doesn't mean 'fighting' but friendly BJJ rolling -- in which case I would not define it as 'fighting'


Fighting is using your skills to defeat a generally resisting opponent in a realisitic situation. Sparring can be fighting (if your opponent is really resisting you and using his aggrression, attributes and skill to defeat you) or it can be some sort of play, like point-fighting. As I said, to develop realistic skills one must train realistically. Chi sao is not a realistic drill; it is unrealistic in that your training partner is not behaving like a real, resisting opponent (not in what he does, hjow he does it, etc.). Unrealistic drills are fine for teaching/learning but not for developing fighting (realistic) skills.



Over the years, Terrence has nothing but constantly put others down and rubbished people who don't agree with his method of fight, fight, fight. All I'm interested in is results, so I'm questioning his method in the same way he questions others. My question is, if his way was so much better, why is he 'routinely' getting beaten? If a boxer constantly criticise and laugh at other training methods, then gets beaten in the ring on a regular basis himself, would we not question the effectiveness of his training methods?


First, I am not putting people down, just pointing out the flaws as I see them in their views on training.

Second, "My way" isn't my creation -- I'm merely following in the footsteps of the people who have really gotten good. Take any proven good fighter and look at how they train. Regardless of their style or art, they all pretty much follow the same model (sport-specific training). What we don't see is anyone who follows a different model, particularly the traditional training model, developing siognificant skills. That is simply the truth. From that, it follows that if a WCK person wants to develop significant skills, they should not use the traditional model (since it hasn't produced good results) but use the more modern sport-specific model. And none of that has anything to do with my personal results.

Third, anyone who trains like modern fighters do, will find themselves routinely getting beaten. Because, as the Gracies say, "You are only as good as your training (sparring) partners." If you want to improve your skills, you need to spar/fight against people better than you. There is no other way. If you are a blue belt in BJJ, rolling forever against white belts won't push you to higher levels of performance; if you are pro boxer, it won't help you to box against beginners. This is the principle of progressive resistance applied to fighting skills: you must seek out progressively better opponents (to fight with) to improve. So the fact that I continue to take beatings only indicates that my abilities are progressing. People who have stopped taking beatings have stopped progressing. People who never took beatings never progressed in the first place.

Let me add, when I say I get beaten routinely, I don't mean that I never "win" -- that I don't tap people or submit them or knock them silly. I am often successful in sparring/fighting (you can take a beating being successful too!). What I mean is that I try to put myself in a postition of continually challenging my abilities, and the most important way to do that is by seeking out people better (in terms of attributes and/or skill) than ourselves. The other way is when working with people less skilled than yourself that you intentionally place yourself in a position or situation of disadvantage and fight from there. For example, you might begin where you are mounted and your partner is trying to rain down blows and work from there.

[Knifefighter]

If your 'mental atitute' is there's always someone better than you, then you already lost half the battle. You keep thinking that, Dale.

It's called being realistic. Since I have always regularly gone against some of the very best people, I understand that this is the reality of the world. Theoretical non-fighters often think they are the best because they only train in the cocoon of their training facility with their trainning buddies and often at less that realistic intensities.

Knowing one's limitations is a great strength. Being unaware of them is a huge weakness.




I agree, but lets not call it 'fighting' like some people do here. There's places to fight and there's places to 'spar'

Lots of what the sports guys do in terms of intensity of sparring is harder than what most of what the theoretical fighters do when they "fight".




Then I suppose Terrence's defination of getting 'beaten' is ambigious. Or maybe he's just exagerating his opponent's ability. Or maybe he doesn't mean 'fighting' but friendly BJJ rolling -- in which case I would not define it as 'fighting'

Getting beaten can be anything from having to tap out when rolling against one's training partner to getting KTFO. "Getting beaten" in practice is usually much less than getting beaten in competition.




What you mean is, most sports champions train this way.

Since you brought up being world champion as being the supreme criteria for effectiveness and only sports have world champs, that's the only thing you can evaluate in terms of world champions. Last time I checked, there was no such thing as a street fighting world champion.


Over the years, Terrence has nothing but constantly put others down and rubbished My question is, if his way was so much better, why is he 'routinely' getting beaten? If a boxer constantly criticise and laugh at other training methods, then gets beaten in the ring on a regular basis himself, would we not question the effectiveness of his training methods?

If a boxer is training for fights correctly, he is regularly getting "beaten" in practice. That's part of the formula for winning either in the ring or in the street.

[Knifefighter]

I understand that injuries can and do occur in wing chun, but if it happends on a 'regualr' basis, I would question my training methods. After all, most people learn a self defence system to proctect oneself...not to inflict pain and damage to oneself. Maybe thats what you call 'upside down' wing chun? Saves the thug doing the work.

Most people who are training hard and realistically will have small injuries as a regular part of training. More serious injuries occur less frequently, but are also occasionally part of training. It’s the only way to get to a high level.

If your instructor is leading you to believe otherwise, he is either clueless or a charlatan.


As I have said to Anerlick, you are most welcome to your method. But now people know the 'effectiveness' and efficiency of your method, I think most will leave you to it.

Only the fantasy, pretend theoretical fighters will do that. Anyone who trains/competes against other skilled, resisting opponents quickly learn they have no other choice if they wish to become highly skilled at fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence,

You can do the "I'll argue my points no matter what" lawyer routine all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that you're full of 5hit.

You made 4-5 posts on the thread leading up to the May, 2005 get-together wherein you were telling people ad nauseum how they were wasting their time with forms, chi sao, this, that....and how they would see something real from you...NO chi sao for Terrence....NO...he was goin to show everybody how in shape he was....how he was going to spar with realism and hard contact, etc.....


AND THEN YOU DIDN'T SHOW. :rolleyes:


And in fact, OBVIOUSLY due to embarrassment - you disappeared COMPETELY from this forum for about 6 months....

and when you returned - you offered some lame excuse how you found something better to do that weekend. :eek:

What a load of crap.

The same crap that you're giving us now.

Regardless of how many times you tell me that YOU THINK I should go over to Renzo's...the fact still remains that you have NO IDEA how good I am - or how good my guys are. But if you insist on always talking so much 5hit - then you should be willing to come and find out.

Which you didn't do in Cleveland.

Lots of talk, Terence...but a poor track record. Typical lawyer bull5hit.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

You can do the "I'll argue my points no matter what" lawyer routine all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that you're full of 5hit.

You made 4-5 posts on the thread leading up to the May, 2005 get-together wherein you were telling people ad nauseum how they were wasting their time with forms, chi sao, this, that....and how they would see something real from you...NO chi sao for Terrence....NO...he was goin to show everybody how in shape he was....how he was going to spar with realism and hard contact, etc.....


AND THEN YOU DIDN'T SHOW. :rolleyes:


Yes, I was interested at first. And if you recall -- if not, go back and read the thread -- I told you that I think that a WCK-only sort of event is a waste of time, and I tried to talk you out of it; I wanted to include MMA/NHB fighters (some good fighters). You wanted to make it sort of a Friendship Gathering, where people could watch, play round with chi sao, spar a bit if they wanted to, etc. I went to one Friendship thingy already, and haven't wished to repeat the expereince. Your event lost my interest. So I went to NAGA Chicago instead.

If you're that interested in what I do or can do, feel free to visit me. I've never turned anyone away. All of Robert's serious guys, Alan, Dave, and I, do the same sorts of things, train along similar lines. Dave has trained with me. Scott Baker, the WT guy who fought in UFC 2, came here to train with me. If you want to know about my WCK skills, ask them -- they've both fought NHB and can tell you.

You keep wanting to make these thhings personal. I'm not going to play those silly games. If you don't think I have any skills, I don't care. These things we're talkinga bout don't depend upon my skill. As I have repeatedly said, don't take my word for it -- go ask really good fighters (and I don't include myself in that category) or even better, look at what really good fighters are doing to become good. Because if we want to be better, that's how we have to do it too.

Your problem is you can't argue with that premise, and you can't refute it with evidence, so you try to make it personal -- don't listen to him because he is a sh!t. When people resort to this sort of thing, they have essentailly condeded the argument.




Regardless of how many times you tell me that YOU THINK I should go over to Renzo's...the fact still remains that you have NO IDEA how good I am - or how good my guys are. But if you insist on always talking so much 5hit - then you should be willing to come and find out.

Which you didn't do in Cleveland.

Lots of talk, Terence...but a poor track record. Typical lawyer bull5hit.

I have already said that I have no idea how good you or your guys are. All I have said, is that one major reason MMA/NHB fighters get so good is that they seek out the best people they can find and train with them. And that if we are interested in increasing our performance, we should do that too. Does Renzo's and Matt's have top-notch fighers? Sure. I don't think you would disagree. Are you saying that you and your guys wouldn't benefit from training with them?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not saying that you don't have skills...I have to assume that by now you do.

What I am saying is that you're waaaay over the top....precisely because it's YOU who is constantly making things personal around here...by repeating ad nauseum that if people don't train exactly the way you do (although who knows for sure what that really means ?)...

then they personally....suck.

This is your message, Terence....and it permeates every post you make.

You try to discredit people who don't do exactly what you (say) you do.

And that's bull5hit.

And the fact that it's done as often as it is can only mean one thing: you have a vested interest in trying to prop yourself up by attempting to make others appear small.

It's the classic pseudo-superiority complex that masks unbearable feelings of inferiority.

See a shrink.

[Knifefighter]

And that's bull5hit.

I think it is spelled bull3hit.




And the fact that it's done as often as it is can only mean one thing: you have a vested interest in trying to prop yourself up by attempting to make others appear small.

Vested interest?

What... does he have a fighting WC school he is trying to convert all the theoreticians into joining so they can learn to fight?

Or does he bill by the hour for coming here and debating?

Or is he going to sue them for not training correctly?


t's the classic pseudo-superiority complex that masks unbearable feelings of inferiority.

Maybe he just likes to argue and debate.
He is an attorney for chrissakes.

[chisauking]

Well, he (Terrence) may like to argue, but from his own admissions, 2 things are beyond dispute:

1) His defination of the word fight isn't in the conventional sense. What he really means is to 'roll' with other BJJs. Why I don't know, because this is a wing chun forum.

2) His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.

If you would like to present me factual edvidence to prove the contrary, you are more than welcome to do so...

Until then I feel there's no further need to say any more to a closet bjjer, whose only motive in joining wing chun forums is to tell every one that they are doing it wrong.

[AndrewS]

CSK,

I have a little sense of what Terence is talking about.

Let me know when you'll be at Gary's next; I can show you.

Ask Ernie.

To a number of other folks who've chimed in on training with the best-

You're making it sound like the only way to get skill is to train with the top people at an elite gym. True, if your goal is to be among said elite. A number of good competitors on the national stage in a variety of combat sports have been largely self-taught; training hard with a good group of partners and learning to learn on their own. To make it to the next level they went to train with the best, but they got better than anyone in this discussion with hard work and a good peer group. The Inoues, the Shark Tank, Rich Franklin, and Cro-Cop all built their base without coming from elite gyms. They worked hard and built skills superior to many people coming out of much more priviliged training backgrounds. For that matter, Alexyev and Paul Anderson were essentially self-coached.

'Working with the best' can definitely get you good fast; so can just working.

Andrew

P.S. Ed Yuen posted a great study off a soccer coaching site a while back that showed that people visually learn skills equally well from poor and elite examples. Something to think about.

[chisauking]

Let me thank you in advance, AndrewS

[drleungjohn]

Nice to see you in these parts-wrt Terence,he has been in WCK a long time-I think his honesty tells a lot more then what it looks like-and his cross training to make his skills better-and his experiences,win-lose-draw-he shares to hopefully spark others to examine their game-by looking into the grapple/bjj world-or at least the individual's own WCK system and training--


But Terence doesn't need me to talk for him-just my pennies worth

For myself-I regularly look at my skills,my level etc and ask myself what am I lacking-and how can I fix it,improve on it etc-

Then I work it out with my students first,then fellow friends in other systems at my level or higher and see-

But-In my persoanl experiences,I look at all of it thru a WCK eye and have yet to feel the need to look outside of it's concepts and theories for the answers-but that's just me-

[splinter]

His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.


You're absolutely rigth. I mean, the fact that he's losing to girls in BJJ obviously means that he's not training correctly.

The right way to go is to avoid fighting or hard sparring all together. I mean, I've never fought, and I'm totally undefeated, so obviously my wing chun training is working perfectly.

[anerlich]

o ahead, I'm not stopping you. Let me know if you need any help in this approach, I would gladly give you a helping 'hand'

I have good instructors and training partners right now, so I'm not looking for assistance from clueless fools at present.

If my situation changes, you'll be first on my list. Your qualifications are obvious. :p

[t_niehoff]

'Working with the best' can definitely get you good fast; so can just working.

P.S. Ed Yuen posted a great study off a soccer coaching site a while back that showed that people visually learn skills equally well from poor and elite examples. Something to think about.

They've done a number of studies on the effectiveness of learning by modeling (seeing someone perform the target skill) on motor skill development, and the findings are interesting: "Novice athletes are likely to get little insight from watching experts, other than perhaps gaining some basic information about how to perform the task . . . . we get the greatest learning benefit from seeing the expert make mistakes . . . the real issue may not be the skill level of the model but from the type of information being demonstrated -- errors or imperfect templates of the action. . . . It is likely we learn more from mistakes than we do correct performances." Schmidt, Motor Control and Learning, p. 292

This is different from practice with/against experts (not just watching them). The advantages to training with experts are many -- including better feedback (you know when you make a mistake), the need to push yourself, etc.

[Knifefighter]

2) His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.

Unless one is the best person, by far, in whatever group he train with, one will routinely lose. If this is not happening, then training is much less effective than it could be.

I believe he was talking about when he first started. He was tapped by a female blue belt during a grappling session. Same thing would more than likely happen to you if you don't have any ground experience.

[Knifefighter]

To a number of other folks who've chimed in on training with the best-

You're making it sound like the only way to get skill is to train with the top people at an elite gym.

One doesn't necessarily need to train with the best... just people who are better than oneself.

[forever young]

just seen this,
http://www.filecabi.net/video/felony-mma.html
might be old news i dunno, but it goes back to the "concrete wrasslin" argument. Im not by the way saying any or either of these guys CAN fight but there is definately some interesting points, check 3.10mins for a classic quote.... and chisauking i gotta say wow, way to post some ignorance there my friend.

[t_niehoff]

Unless one is the best person, by far, in whatever group he train with, one will routinely lose. If this is not happening, then training is much less effective than it could be.


Exactly.

And what would I gain from training with people that I can routinely and easily beat? I can't learn from them, they can't press me, etc. Hey, I have an idea, why don't I just get a group of five year olds and work with them? They won't give me any trouble. ;)



I believe he was talking about when he first started. He was tapped by a female blue belt during a grappling session. Same thing would more than likely happen to you if you don't have any ground experience.

What is interesting is that people who actually fight/spar with good fighters, whether in MMA or WCK or whatever, never seem to have a problem talking about getting whipped. I was talking to a brown belt after a Saulo seminar and he said when he rolled with Saulo he was "schooled like a white belt." He was in awe. No ego. But that attitude comes from fighting -- you get used to losing and getting schooled. However, when you listen to the theoretical nonfighters of the world and they always sound like they are untouchable. It's proof they aren't doing it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

forever young:

You're now one of my favorite posters on this forum...:cool:

That clip is a classic example of what I tried to say on this thread...stay off the ground in real life fighting if you can avoid it....and if you find yourself on the bottom (ie.- in guard)...train RELENTLESSLY to learn how to get out from there....for if you're fully mounted....LOL....now he has the opportunity to bash your head into the concrete (or just punch your lights out even if he is in guard)....and again - if you're fully mounted....now...spend LOTS of training time learning how to block-capture punches/bridge-hip heist/shrimp/roll-and-reverse your way out of there.

[forever young]

forever young:

You're now one of my favorite posters on this forum...:cool:
Why thank you kind sir :D


That clip is a classic example of what I tried to say on this thread...stay off the ground in real life fighting if you can avoid it....and if you find yourself on the bottom (ie.- in guard)...train RELENTLESSLY to learn how to get out from there....for if you're fully mounted....LOL....now he has the opportunity to bash your head into the concrete (or just punch your lights out even if he is in guard)....and again - if you're fully mounted....now...spend LOTS of training time learning how to block-capture punches/bridge-hip heist/shrimp/roll-and-reverse your way out of there.

exactly!!!;)

[chisauking]

John sez: Terence,he has been in WCK a long time-I think his honesty tells a lot more then what it looks like-and his cross training to make his skills better-and his experiences,win-lose-draw-he shares to hopefully spark others to examine their game-by looking into the grapple/bjj world-or at least the individual's own WCK system and training--


Hiya, John:

Herein lies the problem. Your truth may not be my truth. Terrences truth isn't in question. What is, is the way in which he 'forces' his truth onto others and rubbish people who don't agree.

We as humans have been fighting since the begining of time, and we are still fighting all around the world now. There are many ways to fight, and even more ways to obtain fighting skills. No one should dictate to others how they should train, and if you CONSTANTLY put people down, the very least you can do is to provide proof to others why they should listen to you, and the effectiveness of your method(by performance).

Years ago, I had the exact 'fight, fight, fight' mentality as the 'fighters' on this forum. We would go looking for fights, and more often then not, I would come home injured even when I'd won my fights. Even in my wing chun practice, I would try to train as realistically as possible. We would gor-sau with hard leather shoes, kicking each other until blood soaked our trousers. Not only that, we would punch with more or less full power without gloves or headguards.

Result? Damaged knuckles, torn ankle, two knees on the fringe of needing operations, back problems, torn rotator cuff, etc., etc. Sometimes I would wake up with pains in my hand and fingers, and when the weather turns, I sometime walk with a limp due to the sustained damage in my ankles. And as for my shoulder, I still can't perform bil-gee after almost a year since damaging my rotator cuff.

The moral of this sad story is, I also once criticse every body that didn't believe in MY truth. Anybody that wasn't doing wing chun MY way was a pansy, and obviously was a 'none-fighter'. I didn't care who I may rubbish, for my way was the best way.

However, now that I've learnt a far better way to train, I regret that I'd not trained more INTELLIGENTLY before, but more importantly, I now question the error of my ways. Off course, our ancestors had already covered the same path that I'd travelled on long before. They had realised the importance of developing a training method that didn't damaged you in the process of the training itself. Otherwise, you would defeat the purpose of learning a martial arts system. This method is covered very well in wing chun.....unfortunately, many people can comprehend the genius of the system.

Any way, how people chose to train is up to them. If they want to be the best fighter (albeit a cripple), good luck to them..........Just don't laugh at others because they dont follow your 'truth'

Train smart, train intelligently, train hard

[Edmund]

P.S. Ed Yuen posted a great study off a soccer coaching site a while back that showed that people visually learn skills equally well from poor and elite examples. Something to think about.

Hey Andrew,

I can only vaguely recall it. It was a real academic study though. They put a few fairly big groups through the same exercises. They had a training phase and then a test phase.

It had some really complicated results and conclusions too. Stuff to do with the rate of giving the subjects feedback on their performance during the training phase.

Things like:
People who were given advice too often during the training phase actually performed worse during the actual test phase.

[unkokusai]

Any way, how people chose to train is up to them. If they want to be the best fighter (albeit a cripple), good luck to them..........Just don't laugh at others because they dont follow your 'truth'

Ah, the 'pvssy argument' again! A popular variation on this tired old number is the 'will you be able to fight when you are 79 years old?' which naturally leads back to the stories of 79 year old masters who could (but don't, haven't and won't) beat any young professional fighter today with laughable ease if it weren't beneath them to do so.


:rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

John sez: Terence,he has been in WCK a long time-I think his honesty tells a lot more then what it looks like-and his cross training to make his skills better-and his experiences,win-lose-draw-he shares to hopefully spark others to examine their game-by looking into the grapple/bjj world-or at least the individual's own WCK system and training--


Hiya, John:

Herein lies the problem. Your truth may not be my truth. Terrences truth isn't in question. What is, is the way in which he 'forces' his truth onto others and rubbish people who don't agree.


That "your truth may not be my truth" stuff is nonsense. There is only truth, and that's what we should be looking for. A parachute works or it doesn't.

I'm not trying to force my views on anyone. I keep saying not to believe me or anyone, go see for yourself. Go down to a MMA gym and have a go.



We as humans have been fighting since the begining of time, and we are still fighting all around the world now. There are many ways to fight, and even more ways to obtain fighting skills. No one should dictate to others how they should train, and if you CONSTANTLY put people down, the very least you can do is to provide proof to others why they should listen to you, and the effectiveness of your method(by performance).


Yes, there are many ways to fight. But there are not many ways to develop fighting skills (at least not to any significant level), there is only one way. The only way to learn and develop skill riding a bike is by riding the bike. I have provided proof -- that is how all good proven fighters train, by making sparring the core of their training (riding the bike is the training for riding the bike). And by pointing out that no one has provided any evidence to the contrary.



Years ago, I had the exact 'fight, fight, fight' mentality as the 'fighters' on this forum. We would go looking for fights, and more often then not, I would come home injured even when I'd won my fights. Even in my wing chun practice, I would try to train as realistically as possible. We would gor-sau with hard leather shoes, kicking each other until blood soaked our trousers. Not only that, we would punch with more or less full power without gloves or headguards.

Result? Damaged knuckles, torn ankle, two knees on the fringe of needing operations, back problems, torn rotator cuff, etc., etc. Sometimes I would wake up with pains in my hand and fingers, and when the weather turns, I sometime walk with a limp due to the sustained damage in my ankles. And as for my shoulder, I still can't perform bil-gee after almost a year since damaging my rotator cuff.


Gor sao, regardless of how "hard" you do it will never be realistic -- because no fight you will ever be in will look like gor sao. When we do chi sao or gor sao our partner is behaving in a unrealistic way. If you want to train realistically then fight.



The moral of this sad story is, I also once criticse every body that didn't believe in MY truth. Anybody that wasn't doing wing chun MY way was a pansy, and obviously was a 'none-fighter'. I didn't care who I may rubbish, for my way was the best way.


It's not about being a pansy or a tough- guy. The question is are you (the generic you) practicing WCK to develop fighting skills (for self-defense or recreational/competitive fighting)? If not, if you are doing it for some other reason, then great! Do whatever you like. Just don't talk about application and training to fight because you won't have a clue. Anything you say is purely specualtion and theory.

If, however, you are training in WCK to develop fighting skill, then you should look at how good fighters train. Why follow the advice off people who never really trained to fight and/or can't fight particularly well about how to train to fight?



However, now that I've learnt a far better way to train, I regret that I'd not trained more INTELLIGENTLY before, but more importantly, I now question the error of my ways. Off course, our ancestors had already covered the same path that I'd travelled on long before. They had realised the importance of developing a training method that didn't damaged you in the process of the training itself. Otherwise, you would defeat the purpose of learning a martial arts system. This method is covered very well in wing chun.....unfortunately, many people can comprehend the genius of the system.


This begs the question of how do you know that you've found a "far better way to train"? Can't our training -- if we are training to fight -- only be evaluated in light of our results fighting?

Conditioning is developing our body so that we can fight with minimal injury. But the truth is -- not my truth, but the truth -- is that we can only develop skills by doing them. If you want to be able to deal with real punches and kicks, you have to deal with real punches and kicks. And in doing so, you're going to get really punched and really kicked. If you want to be able to deal with someone really trying to take you down, you have to deal with someone really trying to tzake you down. If you want to be able to deal with someone trying to break your arm or choke you out, you need to deal with someone trying to break your arm or choke you out.



Any way, how people chose to train is up to them. If they want to be the best fighter (albeit a cripple), good luck to them..........Just don't laugh at others because they dont follow your 'truth'

Train smart, train intelligently, train hard

A person can't develop fighting skills by not fighting. Just as they can't learn and develop bike riding skills by not riding a bike.

[Knifefighter]

forever young:

You're now one of my favorite posters on this forum...:cool:

That clip is a classic example of what I tried to say on this thread...stay off the ground in real life fighting if you can avoid it....and if you find yourself on the bottom (ie.- in guard)...train RELENTLESSLY to learn how to get out from there....for if you're fully mounted....LOL....now he has the opportunity to bash your head into the concrete (or just punch your lights out even if he is in guard)....and again - if you're fully mounted....now...spend LOTS of training time learning how to block-capture punches/bridge-hip heist/shrimp/roll-and-reverse your way out of there.

Of course you want to stay off the ground and off your back if you don't know what to do there.

Different story if you are skilled there.

[chisauking]

I don't want to turn this into a circus, Terence, but sometimes I really question your logic. You simply can't compare fighting with anything else. For example, your favourites at the moment is swimming and cycling. One can practice swimming all day long, and the worst will happend is that you get tired and get out of the pool. You can practice riding a bike all day long, and the worst that will happend is that you may wobble everywhere and fall off occasonally...............However, if you fight (in the real sense and with no rules), all the time you will be seriously injured. It's true that you need to fight in order to be good at fighting....but this only occur few and far between for the limiting factor of injury.

Prehaps you want to define what precisely 'fighting' is to you, and maybe give an accurate account of your 'many' fighting sessions. It would also be helpful to explain how you would know your shoots or take-downs would work in a street envirnment.

Any way, since I'm a non-fighter and you are a great fighter, I'm obviously wrong and I will not question you anymore. I will be too busy practising all the silly stuffs which non-fighters practice -- like chisau and forms, and maybe -- just maybe -- if I feel confident enough I will do some gor-sau and delude myself it real fighting.

Carry on with the good work.

[Knifefighter]

IIt would also be helpful to explain how you would know your shoots or take-downs would work in a street envirnment..

Shoots, takedowns and throws work great on the street. They are usually much easier to get than in training because the opponent is usually unskilled at defending them.

Street fights often present two of the ideal takedown scenarios:
- An opponent coming in with aggressive foreward intent or;
- An opponent who has just been sucker punched.

[chisauking]

Dale:

How do you know that though? How did you reach that conclusion?

[Knifefighter]

Dale:

How do you know that though? How did you reach that conclusion?

I had a lot of street fights when I was younger. I landed many takedowns and throws, pretty much at will.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm skilled there...I just don't want to be there unnecessarily.

Why take such chances so that I can go home and say..."Wow, I almost had that armbar - so it was worth a trip to the emergency room to get that pencil removed from my ear that his friend didn't need anymore"....:eek: :eek: :eek:

[SevenStar]

I don't want to turn this into a circus, Terence, but sometimes I really question your logic. You simply can't compare fighting with anything else. For example, your favourites at the moment is swimming and cycling. One can practice swimming all day long, and the worst will happend is that you get tired and get out of the pool. You can practice riding a bike all day long, and the worst that will happend is that you may wobble everywhere and fall off occasonally...............However, if you fight (in the real sense and with no rules), all the time you will be seriously injured. It's true that you need to fight in order to be good at fighting....but this only occur few and far between for the limiting factor of injury.

Prehaps you want to define what precisely 'fighting' is to you, and maybe give an accurate account of your 'many' fighting sessions. It would also be helpful to explain how you would know your shoots or take-downs would work in a street envirnment.

Any way, since I'm a non-fighter and you are a great fighter, I'm obviously wrong and I will not question you anymore. I will be too busy practising all the silly stuffs which non-fighters practice -- like chisau and forms, and maybe -- just maybe -- if I feel confident enough I will do some gor-sau and delude myself it real fighting.

Carry on with the good work.

I haven't looked at this thread in a while, but noticed this post. fighting "for real" can be done regularly - ask anyone who has bounced in a rough club. I literally fight every weekend, sometimes during the week as well. fight training can be done regularly as well - any sport fighter can verify that. fight training will make you a better fighter. you will be sparring multiple times per week and possibly rolling daily. the benefits of this are obvious.

takedowns work fine on concrete. I have done them. in addition, we practice them at full intensity on the mats. there should be no doubt that they work. it is the things not practiced with such intensity that should be questioned.

[Knifefighter]

I'm skilled there...I just don't want to be there unnecessarily.

Why take such chances so that I can home and say..."Wow, I almost had that armbar - so it was worth a trip to the emergency room to get that pencil removed from my ear that his friend didn't need anymore"....:eek: :eek: :eek:

Some people have enough skills to prefer to be there in many situations.

LOL @ thinking you don't have just as much, if not more, of a chance of getting that pencil stuck in your ear if you are standing.

[Liddel]

Of course you want to stay off the ground and off your back if you don't know what to do there.
Different story if you are skilled there.

Sounds like an elitist POV with no regard for the skill of the opponent.

Would you be as comfortable going to the ground if you fought a grappler with skills and experience the likes of Ryoce Gracie or Randy Couture ?

Or would you realise you had a better chance standing because your skills were 'closer' in that context ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

He's just tryin' to raz me...:cool:

Don't you know his Deale by now? :rolleyes: ;)

[Knifefighter]

Sounds like an elitist POV with no regard for the skill of the opponent.

No more elitist than those who say they want to keep a fight standing.

[Knifefighter]

He's just tryin' to raz me...:cool:

Don't you know his Deale by now? :rolleyes: ;)

Not trying to razz... just pointing out that just because it may not be a good idea for you to go to the ground, it doesn't necessarily apply to someone else.

[chisauking]

Terrence sez: Gor sao, regardless of how "hard" you do it will never be realistic -- because no fight you will ever be in will look like gor sao. When we do chi sao or gor sao our partner is behaving in a unrealistic way. If you want to train realistically then fight.


I think it's very important to address this misconception by Terrence.....

Gor-sau in Chinese means cross- or exchange of hands. In the old days, when people ask you to 'gor-sau' or 'gor-jille', basically it's a polite or schollerly way to say they want to challenge you.

In practice, gor-sau limits are determined by the particpants. If they so wish, there may not be any limits, therefore gor-sau can be just as realistic as real fighting -- contrary to what Terrence had stated.

[chisauking]

Dale sez: I had a lot of street fights when I was younger. I landed many takedowns and throws, pretty much at will.


Fair enough, Dale.........But as someone will say: They were just scrubs!

[t_niehoff]

Terrence sez: Gor sao, regardless of how "hard" you do it will never be realistic -- because no fight you will ever be in will look like gor sao. When we do chi sao or gor sao our partner is behaving in a unrealistic way. If you want to train realistically then fight.


I think it's very important to address this misconception by Terrence.....

Gor-sau in Chinese means cross- or exchange of hands. In the old days, when people ask you to 'gor-sau' or 'gor-jille', basically it's a polite or schollerly way to say they want to challenge you.

In practice, gor-sau limits are determined by the particpants. If they so wish, there may not be any limits, therefore gor-sau can be just as realistic as real fighting -- contrary to what Terrence had stated.

A person will never fight like they do in gor sao -- never. That's a fantasy. If you think they will, tape yourself doing gor sao, then go down to a MMA gym and fight someone (tape it too) and compare. There will be no similarity. If you disagree, just post the evidence.

[SevenStar]

Dale sez: I had a lot of street fights when I was younger. I landed many takedowns and throws, pretty much at will.


Fair enough, Dale.........But as someone will say: They were just scrubs!

probably. just as all of the cma masters who were undefeated were likely fighting scrubs. how often does one have a streetfight against another trained exponent?

[t_niehoff]

probably. just as all of the cma masters who were undefeated were likely fighting scrubs. how often does one have a streetfight against another trained exponent?

Exactly. And that's one reason (there are others) why "streetfights" can't really tell us much about our skill level.

[chisauking]

First of all, you been telling all and sundry that they must fight, fight, fight in order to be applying wing chun.........Now you are down playing all the people who actually fought \ fighting for real.

A tight rope walker can practice all they want on the ground, but it's only when they can do it when it really matters that count. Just like you can 'roll' or spar in a friendly environment all you want, but until you take it to the next level, you don't really know whether it works or not.


Yep, you are full of yourself and a proper lawer alright.

[t_niehoff]

First of all, you been telling all and sundry that they must fight, fight, fight in order to be applying wing chun.........Now you are down playing all the people who actually fought \ fighting for real.

A tight rope walker can practice all they want on the ground, but it's only when they can do it when it really matters that count. Just like you can 'roll' or spar in a friendly environment all you want, but until you take it to the next level, you don't really know whether it works or not.


Yep, you are full of yourself and a proper lawer alright.

It's not just the fight that matters, even more important is the quality of the fight (the level of the opponent). Does the fact that I've fought and beaten hundreds of white belts prove I have a high level of skill? I could just be a blue belt (who will beat most white belts).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Not trying to razz... just pointing out that just because it may not be a good idea for you to go to the ground, it doesn't necessarily apply to someone else." (Dale)


***LOOK...for all the razzing I sometimes give you about the guard position/BJJ...blah, blah...the fact is I appreciate the importance of being able to wrestle/grappple in the clinch or on the ground - as a fight can easily go there whether you want it to or not. (And yes - using a guard to neutralize/tie him up if you're put down and he's on top is a good move)...

but my point is that trying to keep it standing and go for a knockout...or putting him down with a nice sweep, throw, inside trip, etc...or perhaps going down with him if you see that you'll land on top...(or a kneel down knee-on-his-chest/rib area)...

these things should be one's top priority in real life (unarmed) fighting....as well as training religiously on how to escape from bottom positions (ie.- the full mount being the most important to work against)...

and if you learn some high percentage submissions in the process - especially chokes, strangles, neck cranks, and the double wristlock (since it's useful standing, kneeling, or on the ground) - that's all a big plus as well.

I don't care how skilled/trained the guy on the street might be compared to the guys who train/compete regularly...because it's the guy on the street (and his friends) who's the most dangerous.

So keeping your escape routes open (and your head off the concrete)....has got to be paramount.

[t_niehoff]

"Not trying to razz... just pointing out that just because it may not be a good idea for you to go to the ground, it doesn't necessarily apply to someone else." (Dale)


***LOOK...for all the razzing I sometimes give you about the guard position/BJJ...blah, blah...the fact is I appreciate the importance of being able to wrestle/grappple in the clinch or on the ground - as a fight can easily go there whether you want it to or not. (And yes - using a guard to neutralize/tie him up if your put down and he's on top is a good move)....

And Dale's point is that for someone with a good guard, it can be much, much more than just a way to neutralize or tie someone up. The guard is the richest position there is for submissions, not to mention opportunites to getting to the top. It's sort of like the clinch -- a person can look at it as a great way to tie someone up if they are getting hit (true) but it also offers a whole range of possibilites in itself, if a peson has the skills. If you just want to use the clinch or guard that way, that's fine -- but it is just as viable and "sensible" to do what Dale expounds.



but my point is that trying to keep it standing and go for a knockout...or putting him down with a nice sweep, throw, inside trip, etc...or perhaps going down with him if you see that you'll land on top...(or a kneel down knee-on-his-chest/rib area)...

these things should be one's top priority in real life (unarmed) fighting....as well as training religiously on how to escape from bottom positions (ie.- the full mount being the most important to work against)...


You lose me with the "should" -- your strategy is a fine one, but it is not the best strategy (there is no best strategy). Most successful fighters play to their strengths. If somoene has s sick guard game, that's a strength. Being in someone's guard who is really good is like tip-toeing through a minefield.



and if you learn some high percentage submissions in the process - especially chokes, strangles, neck cranks, and the double wristlock (since it's useful standing, kneeling, or on the ground) - that's all a big plus as well.

I don't care how skilled/trained the guy on the street might be compared to the guys who train/compete regularly...because it's the guy on the street (and his friends) who's the most dangerous.

So keeping your escape routes open (and your head off the concrete)....has got to be paramount


My view is to focus on fundamentals, and fundamentals are by nature high-percentage.

No matter the danger, our ability to deal with it -- whatever it is -- will depend in large part on our skills and conditioning. Skills and conditioning come from our training. If we want to develop greater skills, we need to train against better and better people.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The guard is the richest position there is for submissions" (Terence)


***TOTAL BULL5HIT...Terence, you really need to stop by sometime. For a guy who's so d a m n sure of himself - you're clueless.

[Knifefighter]

"The guard is the richest position there is for submissions" (Terence)


***TOTAL BULL5HIT...Terence, you really need to stop by sometime. For a guy who's so d a m n sure of himself - you're clueless.

LOL @ someone saying this who's highest experience against someone's guard is an ex-student who is a BJJ blue belt.

I'm not sure where Terence trains, but if he is training at a BJJ club with purple, brown, and black belts, I'd say he has a very good idea of what the possibilities of the guard are... and if he is training at a school where these purple, blue and black belts are also working street and weapons stuff, he will more than likely have had a whole new world opened up to him in terms of options from the guard.

Speaking of clueless, I could show you attacks from the guard that you have never even imagined.

[t_niehoff]

"The guard is the richest position there is for submissions" (Terence)


***TOTAL BULL5HIT...Terence, you really need to stop by sometime. For a guy who's so d a m n sure of himself - you're clueless.

No, Victor, what you need to do is stop by Matt Serra's or Renzo's and see what someone with a really good guard can do. Or go talk to some really good BJJ guys and ask then about whether or not the guard is the richest position there is for submissions. Why not see or talk with the experts?

[Knifefighter]

No, Victor, what you need to do is stop by Matt Serra's or Renzo's and see what someone with a really good guard can do. Or go talk to some really good BJJ guys and ask then about whether or not the guard is the richest position there is for submissions. Why not see or talk with the experts?

Submissions from the guard just off the top of my head:

Guillotine
Head & Arm 10 finger guillotine
Arm triangle front choke
10 finger legs over choke
Darce choke
Regular arm bar
Reverse arm bar
Kimura
Chest wrist lock
Googoplata
Omaplata
Omaplata/Kimura
Omaplata/Wrist lock
Omaplata/figure four toe hold
Omaplata/reverse arm bar
Double under collar choke
Under/over collar choke
Reach around collar choke
Ezekial choke
Triangle
Triangle/arm bar
Triangle/Americana
Triangle/Kimura
Triangle/Reverse arm bar
Reverse Triangle
Reverse Triangle/Reverse arm bar
Taking the back followed by the 10-15 submissions from there
Knee bar
Heel hook
Knee separater
Achilles lock
Figure 4 toe hold
Banana Split
Calf crusher from the bottom
Calf crusher from the side
Calf crusher from behind
Twister

Not to mention all of the sweeps that put you in position to apply submissions.

Plus all the options with and against weapons...

[Nick Forrer]

If somoene has s sick guard game, that's a strength. Being in someone's guard who is really good is like tip-toeing through a minefield.


Terence once again speaks the truth (because he speaks from experience)

Victor again doesnt know what he is talking about (because he has no experience of a good BJJ guy i.e. purple and above) and is simply parroting what Ceccinne says on his tapes ad nauseum.

Pls pls go to Renzos and have a roll and have your illusions shattered once and for all. :eek: You never know you might actually learn something!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen Terence,

Stop hiding behind Renzo, Matt, Dale, Merryprankster, and whoever else....

and stop by and put me in your guard (as many times as you like) - and watch what happens!

Then I'll put you in cross chest position (side control)...head and arm position...top saddle (full mount)...and rear mount.

And we'll video the whole thing.

Then later - we can watch how many times I submitted you and how many times you submitted me.

Oh yeah, and one more thing...striking will be permitted.

You're a friggin' BJJ nut-hugger who's clueless.

And furthermore - I have a very strong intuition by now that your wing chun sucks as well.....since you NEVER say anything in your posts that would indicate otherwise.

[Knifefighter]

and stop by and put me in your guard (as many times as you like) - and watch what happens!.
You're a friggin' BJJ nut-hugger who's clueless.

Three questions:

1- Does Terrence live by you?
2- Shouldn't you be suggesting that you stop by his school since you are the one who wants to mix it up with him?
3- What's wrong with him being a BJJ nuthugger? You are a Catch nuthugger and that seems to be OK.

As far as being clueless, you haven't exactly been out on the circuit yourself mixing it up with other grapplers.

[t_niehoff]

Listen Terence,

Stop hiding behind Renzo, Matt, Dale, Merryprankster, and whoever else....

and stop by and put me in your guard (as many times as you like) - and watch what happens!

Then I'll put you in cross chest position (side control)...head and arm position...top saddle (full mount)...and rear mount.

And we'll video the whole thing.

Then later - we can watch how many times I submitted you and how many times you submitted me.

Oh yeah, and one more thing...striking will be permitted.

You're a friggin' BJJ nut-hugger who's clueless.

And furthermore - I have a very strong intuition by now that your wing chun sucks as well.....since you NEVER say anything in your posts that would indicate otherwise.

The discussion here is about the guard, not across sides, not the mount, not the back, the guard. I never said that those superior positions didn't offer good submission opportunities -- of course they do. What I said is that the guard is the richest postition in submissions. In other words, there are more offensive opportunites from the guard (greatest #of possibilities). However, the guard doesn't offer the same "safety" that the back, mount, etc. offer. So while the back is infinitely safer, it doesn't offer nearly the number of possibilites that the guard does. People with a really good guard, will trade off the safety for the possibilities.

If you are really interested in what someone with a good guard game can do, go visit Matt or Renzo (what are they 30 minutes from you?). What's your problem with visiting them? Do you think I can show you how good a guard can be better than Renzo or Matt? If so, I thank you for the compliment, but admit my guard is no where -- NO WHERE -- near that level. So if you want to see what I good guard game is, visit them.

As far as being clueless, I'm basing my opinions on expereince with some fantastic BJJ guys, people with awesome guards -- personal experience and from seeing what they do with other, very good grapplers. The sort of experience I am suggesting you get by visiting some top-notch BJJ people. You haven't had this experience. And lacking this experience, you call me "clueless". Ironic.

Nut-rider? I don't think so. I've never said, because I don't think that way, that BJJ is better than sambo, catch, judo, etc. They're all good. And each has its own distinctiveness. BJJ has developed the guard to levels that no other method has. But I'm not saying the guard or the ground is the best way to fight or that is how people should fight -- I'm saying that the guard can be a very potent weapon for people who have developed it. If you don't want to develop a guard game and only use it defensively, that's OK and there is nothing wrong with that. That's certainly one way to go. On the other hand, someone else who has a good offensive guard game might, with good reason, take a different view. Some world-class fighters got there in large part on the strength of their guard.

[Wayfaring]

Listen Terence,

Stop hiding behind Renzo, Matt, Dale, Merryprankster, and whoever else....

and stop by and put me in your guard (as many times as you like) - and watch what happens!


Yeah, yeah. We all realize that Terence's "mouth" guard far exceeds his
"mat" guard.



Then I'll put you in cross chest position (side control)...head and arm position...top saddle (full mount)...and rear mount.


So this sounds like you feel you are pretty adept at passing the guard? Do you mind describing the guard passes you use to get into side control, mount, or back mount?

[Wayfaring]

Nut-rider? I don't think so. I've never said, because I don't think that way, that BJJ is better than sambo, catch, judo, etc. They're all good. And each has its own distinctiveness. BJJ has developed the guard to levels that no other method has. But I'm not saying the guard or the ground is the best way to fight or that is how people should fight -- I'm saying that the guard can be a very potent weapon for people who have developed it. If you don't want to develop a guard game and only use it defensively, that's OK and there is nothing wrong with that. That's certainly one way to go. On the other hand, someone else who has a good offensive guard game might, with good reason, take a different view. Some world-class fighters got there in large part on the strength of their guard.

Bravo has his rubber guard game going on too, which is not exactly BJJ. If you come up against that and haven't seen it before or someone plays it at a high level they'll catch you. That progression also is pretty good at neutralizing strikes from the top. Oh, and Chuck Liddel trains it with Bravo. So he must not feel his "@nti-gr@pple" is too strong to train it.

The main thing I don't like in all of the "anti-guard" sentiments and "anti-ground" sentiments is avoiding training it. If you avoid training it then it is a weakness.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No, Terence...it was about you saying that the guard is the best position to be in in order to go for submissions....and I'm telling you that cross chest is better, head and arm is better, top saddle (mount) is better, on the guy's back is better, and even a standing front headlock (not a side head lock) is better - and understand that striking is always part of the mix - as this helps to set submissions up.

And as for what I might do to defeat the guard - you'll just have to test me and find out.

No advance warning...just put your body where your mouth is.

[t_niehoff]

No, Terence...it was about you saying that the guard is the best position to be in in order to go for submissions....and I'm telling you that cross chest is better, head and arm is better, top saddle (mount) is better, on the guy's back is better, and even a standing front headlock (not a side head lock) is better...

And as for what I might do to defeat the guard - you'll just have to test me and find out.

No advance warning...just put your body where your mouth is.

Go back and read what I said -- I said "The guard is the richest position there is for submissions", you even quoted it for God sake! And if you didn't understand me, why not ask me to elaborate instead of going on your rant?

Dude, I could care less what you might do to "defeat the guard" -- it has nothing to do with that. The better grappler will win. I know why you are afraid to visit Matt or Renzo's schools, because they have good grapplers and they will crush you. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Challenging me to fly halfway across the country to see your grappling skills is hilarious. I could care less about your grappling skills. If I wanted to see grappling skills and was to fly to NYC, I'd spend the time at Matt or Renzo's. :)