Why martial arts?

[neilhytholt]

From a lot of the responses on the lineage thread, a lot of you mentioned other reasons for taking martial arts rather than learning self defense and fighting skills.

In fact, many of you responded that self defense or fighting skills would be secondary to lineage.

Why are you taking martial arts, then?

[PangQuan]

in todays world, especially in america, we rarely NEED to fight.

combat is always going to be a major draw to the martial arts for any serious practitioner.

that is a given. combat will always be an influential aspect to practicing the martial arts.

but since our need for combat is rather small, this cannot be the only reason, or you would be focusing on a goal that is not going to happen. futility

this aside from sport figthers of course. we know why they train.

in addition to combat application and self defense purposes, one of the reasons i pratice martial arts is to push myself.

to become more tomorrow than what i am today. physically as well as mentally.

i must admit health is a reason as well.

today i was at the park, and after my work out i say a very old man practicing his taijiquan alone under a tree. i watched him complete his routine. just as he was beginning to leave he looked at me and gave me a smile. he knew i was spying on him the whole time. just then he jogged off.

this was a very old man.

later on i was downtown to buy a new book and i looked around at the people. there were many old people around. none of them had the straightness of back or the springy bounce in their steps that the old taiji man had.

the martial arts helped to keep his body in a younger state by fighting deterioration.

this is a wonderful side effect of proper trainnig and fitness. martial arts has the potential to do this for us.

I practice martial arts is to live.

[neilhytholt]

Guess when I went to school taiji wasn't very popular, but they had hatha yoga classes.

A lot of people on the other thread mentioned character training, or controlling violent tendencies.

Perhaps this is the reason that I've been so at odds with many in the local MA community is that they aren't teaching for self defense / fighting.

So when you come in and go, "Where's the fighting? Where's the apps?" They think that you have a bad character and just want to hurt people. Perhaps these people have never been exposed to a high degree of violence in their lives and don't understand that somebody might want to take martial arts for self defense.

Guess I didn't think that people would want to take MA just for character training and health. A lot of people do seem to be in local MA classes to lose weight, though.

[PangQuan]

i have somewhat mixed feelings on this

i am an adult. i am a good person.

i am not a child in need of morality lessons.

if a teacher of martial arts gets to know me over a small period of time. not many years. unless they are complete idiots, they can see clearly my nature.

many times this is just an excuse not to give you the real stuff because either they havent got it, or they dont ever plan on giving it out.

i do not live in ancient china.

[neilhytholt]

i have somewhat mixed feelings on this

i am an adult. i am a good person.

i am not a child in need of morality lessons.

if a teacher of martial arts gets to know me over a small period of time. not many years. unless they are complete idiots, they can see clearly my nature.

many times this is just an excuse not to give you the real stuff because either they havent got it, or they dont ever plan on giving it out.

i do not live in ancient china.

Yes, I think a lot of teachers use the 'character' thing because they don't want to teach self defense. I could name a couple right off the bat. It doesn't take a lot of character training to buy or steal a gun, so that argument is kindof pointless these days.

All I can say is ... this really explains the problems I've been having with what I've been calling the '2 camps' of martial arts. There's the very little fighting / character people and there's the kickboxing/MMA/sanshou with big gloves people and there's not much in between.

Well. Oh, well. :)

[PangQuan]

Well. Oh, well. :)


exactly :rolleyes:

its pretty much all we can do right?

lol, i mean seriously, like to look at it something like a graph.

you have 0-100

there is everything from 0 - 100 on the board, you just have to find your number and then find others with the same ticket.

this is the reason i left my last school. i loved the style and all, the practice was really good. but over the years less and less sparring and contact. i couldnt handle that.

it gets to the point that if they arent fighting there is no reason to be there, because i can do it all on my own if im not fighting.

new material doesnt mean much to me if im not going to be implimenting it in a free fighting format.

for me learning form, application then utilization is what i like. if you take out the last section im not receiving much thats useful for anything other than conditioning and structure IMO

which i can do on my own.

[Fu-Pow]

Because I'm a masochist. :D

[PangQuan]

Because I'm a masochist. :D

lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[neilhytholt]

exactly :rolleyes:

its pretty much all we can do right?

lol, i mean seriously, like to look at it something like a graph.

you have 0-100

there is everything from 0 - 100 on the board, you just have to find your number and then find others with the same ticket.


I don't really find anyplace around here that does traditional apps with sparring. I think that it's just this area, however, because there are other places that seem to have schools that still seem to do more.


this is the reason i left my last school. i loved the style and all, the practice was really good. but over the years less and less sparring and contact. i couldnt handle that.


That's why I quit my last teacher. He actually said he was relieved because he didn't have to do any more physical workout.

I guess I was the only student who pushed him to do apps, and he didn't like the 'workout'. An entire like 10 minutes of an hour lesson spent on partner work with a very light level of contact.

I guess I just need to find a flower arranging school now. :)

[neilhytholt]

Because I'm a masochist. :D

Ironically, that's the same excuse I used to use when asked why I stayed with a non-fighting teacher that I had to argue with all the time to do any apps at all.

There are a few schools around here that do seem to do some apps, but not a style I'm really interested in. Hung Ga, CLF, 'Yiliquan' ...

Anyway, somebody said some shuai jiao guy was thinking of moving up here, John Wang or somebody. Maybe that will happen at some point.

[The Xia]

Ironically, that's the same excuse I used to use when asked why I stayed with a non-fighting teacher that I had to argue with all the time to do any apps at all.

There are a few schools around here that do seem to do some apps, but not a style I'm really interested in. Hung Ga, CLF, 'Yiliquan' ...

Anyway, somebody said some shuai jiao guy was thinking of moving up here, John Wang or somebody. Maybe that will happen at some point.
So why not do Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, or Yiliquan?

[Water-quan]

It's a very good question. People underestimate just how much of martial arts improvement comes directly from mental work - thinking, pndering, questioning, researching....

The first and foremost, primary thing to do is ot honestly approach the reason why you want to do martial arts. Often - almost always really - that reason is to do with sensitive issues relating to self... and everyone knows that sensitive issues relating to self are not comfortable to examine! For example, when i asked myself this direct question, my honest answer turned out to be that I wanted people to think I was great and really special because I knew martial arts. That was a big suprise for me - and yet, I'd always known it all along. Because that was my secret desire, it was always there, at my heart, guiding the way approached martial arts... consequently stoppoing me from ever questioning or thinking about my training methods. I never understood what I wanted to understand until I didn't want it for that purpose anymore - when I decided that it would just be nice to now the real truth of it all, after all those years, all the nonsense just fell away easy peasy.

On a wider scale, asking why you want to train MA is vital. No aim is right or wrong - just different. If you know, if you really, truly know, then you can make sure your trainign way is focussed towards that. Wanting real combat skill whilst focussing on forms causes a tension and contradiction int he training path of a person, preventing real skill from unfolding... and vice versa.

[EarthDragon]

Neil
you must realize that any arsehole can learn how to throw a punch, it's not rocket science, but hitting someone is the most basic part of MA. If all you are looking for is to learn how to beat people up you are missing the big picture.

and this is why you are getting so much flack form everybody you just dont get it!

[Royal Dragon]

It's a very good question. People underestimate just how much of martial arts improvement comes directly from mental work - thinking, pndering, questioning, researching....

Reply]
That is all fine and dandy, but I can do that myself,on my own. Infact I do that BETTER by myself at my little training ground deep in a clearing in the local forest presereve where I have my caveman gym set up (Pull up bar is a tree branch tied between 2 trees with vine and everything :D ), than with any live teacher.

When I have a live teacher, I want corrections on my mechnics and to be shown if I am doing anything wrong, but most all I want two man fight training. Everything else.

I want coaching on strategy, and engagement. I want coaching on good defense tactics, and I want to be drilling apps to techniques when I am not sparring. My time with a live teacher is slim these days, I want to work on the stuff I *Need* him for, not the same things I could be doing on my own anyway.

[Royal Dragon]

Neil
you must realize that any arsehole can learn how to throw a punch, it's not rocket science, but hitting someone is the most basic part of MA. If all you are looking for is to learn how to beat people up you are missing the big picture.

Reply]
Maybe he's got the rest of the picture, and the fighting is the only missing part? Maybe he's tired of getting copies of the same part of the picture over, and over again when what he really wants is the part of the picture he is missing.


and this is why you are getting so much flack form everybody you just dont get it!

Reply]
You know, I actually agree with his position. The fighting skills are the core of martial training. All the "Other" bennifits are side effects. Someone who is interested in that and cannot find it is bound to be frusterated. Especially if they had a great teacher at one time, and had to move, or the school closed and all they can find in his style are schools with the modern "Form Choreagraphy" theme.

And I say "Form Choreagraphy", because a from oriented school is not actully teaching the form, as that intails learning how to actually fight with each and every technique in said form. Since they don't do that, all they are teachig is the choreagraphy. Not it's just an empty dance and not really a full martiala rt anymore.

Just dabbling in the applications does not a fighter make.

[Water-quan]

Neil
you must realize that any arsehole can learn how to throw a punch, it's not rocket science, but hitting someone is the most basic part of MA. If all you are looking for is to learn how to beat people up you are missing the big picture.

and this is why you are getting so much flack form everybody you just dont get it!

Support for Neil is very strong amongst wise people.

[neilhytholt]

Support for Neil is very strong amongst wise people.

Thank you, and thank you, RD.

If you've ever been attacked, or had your family or friends attacked, it's pretty simple, really.

[Water-quan]

It's a very good question. People underestimate just how much of martial arts improvement comes directly from mental work - thinking, pndering, questioning, researching....

Reply]
That is all fine and dandy, but I can do that myself,on my own. Infact I do that BETTER by myself at my little training ground deep in a clearing in the local forest presereve where I have my caveman gym set up (Pull up bar is a tree branch tied between 2 trees with vine and everything :D ), than with any live teacher.

When I have a live teacher, I want corrections on my mechnics and to be shown if I am doing anything wrong, but most all I want two man fight training. Everything else.

I want coaching on strategy, and engagement. I want coaching on good defense tactics, and I want to be drilling apps to techniques when I am not sparring. My time with a live teacher is slim these days, I want to work on the stuff I *Need* him for, not the same things I could be doing on my own anyway.

Well, a big cheer to all of that. The secret is to find the teachers who know how to work in harmony with a person naturally unfolding their own insight in to martial arts- very rare these days.

[neilhytholt]

So why not do Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, or Yiliquan?

Well, maybe I need to visit Leong's school. From the second-hand reports it didn't sound very good, but perhaps they were wrong. I went to the branch school, not the main one, when I visited.

[neilhytholt]

So I think I found a good Ikebana school. http://www.misogetsu.org/

Why do mediocre martial arts when you can do world-class Ikebana?

[RonH]

I was born hyperactive and I've gotten increasingly hyperactive over the years, so it's a good way to burn some energy off.

[D-FENS]

I do it for the chicks.

[neilhytholt]

I do it for the chicks.

Yeah, Ikebana has lots of chicks. They're kindof grandmas, but lots of chicks.

[The Willow Sword]

I initially started taking Karate at the age of 14. Money was tight so all i could do was take free seminars and such(books and vids). I was a runt back in my grade school days and got tired of being picked on and such. in the beginning it was about the fighting and the kicking a$$. But later as i allowed my mind to evolve out of the neanderthal fighting mentality i began to see the philosophy and way of life that went deeper than just the fighting aspects. IN ALL martial systems you have a moral code and philosophy that helps to control your ego and to help conduct yourself in a decent manner so that you do not become some rageaholic tyrant hell bent on kicking peoples' A$$es. I agree that in some instances with schools too much is emphasised on the philosophical elements and the good training and skills are lost in a haze of D&D fanatsy ninja role playing. Its the fantasy aspect of kung fu and the soap opera element of the old kung fu stories(and modern movies and such) that have put CMA and the esoteric disciplines in the garbage.

Just because i am someone who doesnt base my life on how well i can beat someone up in defense of my life doesnt mean that i dont have the skills necessary to defend my life(which is what i save my skills for, not for some tournament or some false sense of pride and acheivment because i was able to choke this guy out or beat this other guy into submission)

With regards to lineage, reread what i wrote in the lineage forum thread and you will understand why I feel it is necessary to be at a school with a good lineage and a reputable background(not a fabricated one or one that makes unsubstantiated claims,regardless of how well the school teaches its "material").

Here is another way to look at it Neil, I like shooting a rifle better than i like shooting and hand gun, handguns i have no real use for, but it doesnt mean that i dont know how to use one;) .

Peace,TWS

[sunfist]

I didnt want to be a martial artist, I wanted to be a lumberjack!:(

[SPJ]

I had a very bad cold and also adjusting to the one hour early saving time.

my biological clock keeps telling me the old hours .

--

why and why not?

my Japanese inlaws keep Bon sai trees. everyday they would trim, water, add some fertilizer etc.. they can't afford an open space for garden in Tokyo. so they have the little garden/tree in a pot.

I asked why doing it everyday? Well, they said it is good to see the little tree grow the way you wanted. it also reminds them to be close to the nature and be part of the nature. it is a meditative practice, too. if we may groom/cultivate our characters, personalities, temperaments etc in a certain way --

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why MA or why not?

some go after the belt or medals. some go after the game/competition.

some would feel like to "groom/cultivate" their body like a Bon sai tree.

some breathing, stretching, relaxation exercises, some work out, some loosening up the joints, some --

why practice everyday? is it a chore, is it a "pleasure"?

b/c it is fun and good for your health, if you know what you are doing?

--

:)