Original Chuan Fa / Kenpo Styles?

[neilhytholt]

So here's the kicker. I can't find anything that's like my MA class as a youth. Based upon talking with my old classmates and my old sifu, my old papers, and my old notes ...

Supposedly it was a Chinese style brought from Korea by some guy, now deceased, and taught by him and his son, last name Lale, who seems to have vanished. It is an animal style. It has self defenses -- some of these self defenses have the same names even as Kenpo karate (Ed Parker, Al Tracy, Shou Shu, etc.) My sifu took this as the truth, and didn't question because it was 'different' than these other styles. Yet, it has the same animals as Shou Shu.

So people have said, okay, it's Shou Shu.

BUT ... none of the forms looks anything like shou shou, at least when I looked a few years ago when they still had clips up. One of the forms looks like the Kenpo finger form. None of the other forms are from Kenpo. Some of the self defenses have the same name as Kenpo, some don't.

But the ones with the same names as kenpo aren't the same as kenpo. They are more lethal. For example where kenpo might have a strike, this one has a neck break, etc. I was told that they mixed in army combatives into the self defenses and many of them match what is in the army field manual for self defense techniques, letter for letter, from my notes.

So ... ??? ??? Was there an original style that Kenpo came from that Mitose / Ed Parker / Moore got this stuff from? Nobody else anywhere has ever heard of Mongoose as an animal in a Chinese style.

[Royal Dragon]

What did you originally study?

[TenTigers]

you mean like Dance of the Mongoose, Cobra and Mongoose? Kenpo techniques. I used to teach "Old style" Kenpo (Tracy's) some of the animals, eagle,cobra, were from Hawaaian Lua, as well as kali and silat creeping in.
I also modified many of the Kenpo techniques to take them to that level as well. Some of my personal modifications were also to "bring it back" to the original Hung Kuen methods, rather than the "Karate-ized" way. I found that when you did the technique closer to the way it appears in the forms, it was far more brutal/effective. Your teacher may have done the same thing. Look into some early sixties Chow, Parker, and Tracy stuff and see if it is similar.

[neilhytholt]

What did you originally study?

I have no idea ... there's no name, my certificate says, "the way of the beast." LOL

[neilhytholt]

you mean like Dance of the Mongoose, Cobra and Mongoose? Kenpo techniques. I used to teach "Old style" Kenpo (Tracy's) some of the animals, eagle,cobra, were from Hawaaian Lua, as well as kali and silat creeping in.
I also modified many of the Kenpo techniques to take them to that level as well. Some of my personal modifications were also to "bring it back" to the original Hung Kuen methods, rather than the "Karate-ized" way. I found that when you did the technique closer to the way it appears in the forms, it was far more brutal/effective. Your teacher may have done the same thing. Look into some early sixties Chow, Parker, and Tracy stuff and see if it is similar.

I have Tracy's entire curriculum they have out on DVD and I've reviewed descriptions of two versions of Ed Parker's, but I don't know where to find the old Parker stuff.

But Kenpo didn't have a "mongoose kata" did it? But yeah, I've got like orange belt, "Crash of the Eagle" "bowing to buddha" "hand Grab A.B." "mirror grab A.B." shoulder grab, double grab, attack grab, wrist advance, chained dragon, locking arm, bear hug, snapping twig, mongoose kata.

Snapping twig is actually exactly like it is in Kenpo. The rest, not so much, like some of them are shorter. I can't remember the grabs. Those are probably the same as kenpo.

I've also got a lot of notes that seem to match the army field manual, like shin kick, neck break, stuff like that. Anyways, maybe it is what they said it is, a huge mess.

[TenTigers]

btw, my school also used to be called "Shaolin Ch'uan-Fa Kung-Fu Academy" as my focus became deeper into Hung Kuen, well, the rest is history.

[B-Rad]

That's what many shou shu people say "shou shu" means. Sounds like it's a shou shu varient (maybe an old version of the style?):


The term Shou Shu translates in English as "the fighting way of the beasts" or "beast art."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shou_Shu

[TenTigers]

I think it is simply what alot of people did when they branched out on their own from Chow, and parker, etc. Look at Pai-Lum, and all the various Kenpo styles-Bing Suey,San Chai,BKF Kenpo, etc many had the same techniques, with different names, added twists, such as BKF had different names and added spinning back kicks to end the techniques, Tracy had the "soft bow hammerfist,back kick, cross out" stuff. If it has the cross out guard-it is most likely a kenpo derivitave.

[TenTigers]

In Parker's early masterpiece,"Secrets of Chinese karate" he refers to it as Ch'uan-Fa, and ch'uan-shu.

[neilhytholt]

That's what many shou shu people say "shou shu" means. Sounds like it's a shou shu varient (maybe an old version of the style?):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shou_Shu

I have no fricking clue. Unfortunately the guy whose dad supposedly taught it, Jay Lale, we have no idea where to find him now.

Seems like it must be shou shu, though. Which is really disappointing because supposedly that guy ripped Shou Shu off of Kenpo. But he must have made up a lot of forms too, then.

[neilhytholt]

I think it is simply what alot of people did when they branched out on their own from Chow, and parker, etc. Look at Pai-Lum, and all the various Kenpo styles-Bing Suey,San Chai,BKF Kenpo, etc many had the same techniques, with different names, added twists, such as BKF had different names and added spinning back kicks to end the techniques, Tracy had the "soft bow hammerfist,back kick, cross out" stuff. If it has the cross out guard-it is most likely a kenpo derivitave.

There were cross-steps.

Now there's something. The beginning kata salute. It's the same as this one except there's an extra push at the end, so wipe and push down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhH1fOZJMpY

[TenTigers]

did you like it?
is it effective?
did it help you out when you needed it?
Did it help you get to where you are today?
Then don't be dissapointed.

[Royal Dragon]

In Parker's early masterpiece,"Secrets of Chinese karate" he refers to it as Ch'uan-Fa, and ch'uan-shu.

Reply]
That was an awesome book...I gave it to my Girlfriend when she was doing Saviano's White Tiger kempo. I wish I still had that copy. It was my first martial arts book.

Seems like it must be shou shu, though. Which is really disappointing because supposedly that guy ripped Shou Shu off of Kenpo. But he must have made up a lot of forms too, then.

Reply]
Neil, Kempo guys are notorious for doing thier own thing when they start teaching. Most of the top guys formed thier own lines, and what you end up getting is the cumilation of thier personal journies.

If you originally learned some sort of Parker derived Kempo, you will not get it anywhere else but your original teacher. Your best bet would be to do as he did, and study all you can untill a good workable system begins to emerge from your own experiance.

[neilhytholt]

did you like it?
is it effective?
did it help you out when you needed it?
Did it help you get to where you are today?
Then don't be dissapointed.

Actually I'd like to go back and relearn it because I've forgotten most of it, but my old sifu doesn't want to teach anymore, which is why I've been trying to find out what the original style was.

But based upon the 3 katas that I have, they're nothing like it. I don't know where that salute comes from.

Actually, in the movie "The Dragon Bruce Lee Story" or whatever, they did the salute the same as our school. I wonder where they got those forms.

[neilhytholt]

Neil, Kempo guys are notorious for doing thier own thing when they start teaching. Most of the top guys formed thier own lines, and what you end up getting is the cumilation of thier personal journies.

If you originally learned some sort of Parker derived Kempo, you will not get it anywhere else but your original teacher. Your best bet would be to do as he did, and study all you can untill a good workable system begins to emerge from your own experiance.

The problem is that Mitose and those guys battle tested their stuff on the streets of Honolulu. I can't exactly do that because I'd probably get shot.

Not that it stopped any of the Kenpo people ... maybe I should start Neil's Cascade Forest Kenpo or something like that. LOL

[TenTigers]

Not that it stopped any of the Kenpo people ... maybe I should start Neil's Cascade Forest Kenpo or something like that. LOL
-well, it wouldn't be the first time. Knowing you, with your penchant for reality-based MA, it would be a good school.
um, about the name? Less granola, more meat.

[neilhytholt]

Not that it stopped any of the Kenpo people ... maybe I should start Neil's Cascade Forest Kenpo or something like that. LOL
-well, it wouldn't be the first time. Knowing you, with your penchant for reality-based MA, it would be a good school.
um, about the name? Less granola, more meat.

I guess you haven't ever been to the Cascade forests around here, home of loggers, meth labs, body dumps, sport hunters, etc...

Yeah, it does sound kindof granola, though. I wasn't being serious about the name. Shaolin means something like little pine forest, so it was a joke.

[TenTigers]

I like it, I LIKE IT!

[Oso]

it could be from anywhere, neil.

the pong lai salutation is very similar except for a much lower coiled and empty stance and a different ending. Otherwise: coiled to empty and back to standing with the same arm movements except at the end we raise our arms over our head and bring them down to the hips.

[Royal Dragon]

Sugjestion, stop looking at the over all choreography, and start looking at the individual techniques found in the katas. when you find various Kata's that are full of the techniques you know, then you have a good lead.

[neilhytholt]

Sugjestion, stop looking at the over all choreography, and start looking at the individual techniques found in the katas. when you find various Kata's that are full of the techniques you know, then you have a good lead.

It probably was an earlier version of sho shu ... the sho shu katas are a lot longer and more flowery. They probably added on a lot of stuff to them over the years.

Oh, well.

[neilhytholt]

it could be from anywhere, neil.

the pong lai salutation is very similar except for a much lower coiled and empty stance and a different ending. Otherwise: coiled to empty and back to standing with the same arm movements except at the end we raise our arms over our head and bring them down to the hips.

Yeah, this one doesn't raise it to the head, just to shoulder high and then down. Guess it's a pretty standard salutation. Oh, well.

It's probably just a bunch of forms they made up. One of them looks a lot like the kenpo finger form.

Anyways, thanks for the responses, everybody.

[Royal Dragon]

It's probably just a bunch of forms they made up

Reply]
That is fairly common in Kempo circles. I know Tom Saviano teaches the form he developed for his Black Belt test under Mcsweeny. He has the from broke down into sections, and each section is taught a technique at a time as application first, and combined into the short form after. Each short form is a rank. All the short forms are reassembled to make the full form.

If making a form was a requirement for his balck belt test, then I'd think it's safe bet all of them did that, so each Kempo system is a unique as the Black belt teaching it.

[Yum Cha]

My understanding is that there is Kempo and Kenpo. Kempo, or Shoringi kempo is a kind of transitional chinese style done in japan. Shoringi is basically Sui Lam Gee, or so I am told.

Paker misprinted a book and called it Kenpo (a Typo) and kept it, becoming a differentiation.

He restructured it, with 24 techniques per level, and associated forms. In his latter years, he shat in his own nest, giving away black belts to 'commercial' partners who 'promised' to learn the full system and the 24 techniques. Most didn't, and made it into their own thing as has been discussed earlier in this thread.

The big thing about Parker Kenpo is the 24 techniques. Lots of guys claim the system or the name, but don't know the 24 techniques.

Here is a link to a Paker Kenpo Teacher in Australia, there are some interesting action videos, including knife and gun disarms.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=crazydragonkenpo

[neilhytholt]

Well searching around, I finally tracked down the daughter of the guy who supposedly originally taught this system, so maybe she'll be able to put me in touch with her brother if he's still around.

[xcakid]

So here's the kicker. I can't find anything that's like my MA class as a youth. Based upon talking with my old classmates and my old sifu, my old papers, and my old notes ...

Supposedly it was a Chinese style brought from Korea by some guy, now deceased, and taught by him and his son, last name Lale, who seems to have vanished. It is an animal style. It has self defenses -- some of these self defenses have the same names even as Kenpo karate (Ed Parker, Al Tracy, Shou Shu, etc.) My sifu took this as the truth, and didn't question because it was 'different' than these other styles. Yet, it has the same animals as Shou Shu.

So people have said, okay, it's Shou Shu.

BUT ... none of the forms looks anything like shou shou, at least when I looked a few years ago when they still had clips up. One of the forms looks like the Kenpo finger form. None of the other forms are from Kenpo. Some of the self defenses have the same name as Kenpo, some don't.

But the ones with the same names as kenpo aren't the same as kenpo. They are more lethal. For example where kenpo might have a strike, this one has a neck break, etc. I was told that they mixed in army combatives into the self defenses and many of them match what is in the army field manual for self defense techniques, letter for letter, from my notes.

So ... ??? ??? Was there an original style that Kenpo came from that Mitose / Ed Parker / Moore got this stuff from? Nobody else anywhere has ever heard of Mongoose as an animal in a Chinese style.

The style you are looking for maybe Won Hop Kuen Do. It is an offshoot of Kenpo from Al Dacacos, Mark Dacascos father(yes the Chairman from Iron Chef America). He basically took the Chinese aspects of Shaolin Kempo that he learned, and expanded on it per se. Malia Bernal also took the Kenpo tree into a different direction that moved it closer to CMA form, tactics wise.Won Hop Kuen Do is pretty much a west cost thing, but there have been a few intructors out there that have moved east.

I use to have a Shaolin Kempo family tree that shows all of the offshoot styles that came from the root system stemming from Mitose. Even went back to the supposed Shaolin Monk that thought the Mitose family in Japan. Not sure how accurate that part is.

I will see if I still have when I get home. I am on my way to work.

[xcakid]

Well OK here's what I found only that is close to what I have. :D Don't mind the Fred Villari - Tibetan Lama part. I don't think anyone has been able to verify that. This is coming from a former Villari balck belt :D


http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html

[xcakid]

Paker misprinted a book and called it Kenpo (a Typo) and kept it, becoming a differentiation.


Actually it wasn't parker. It was misspelled way before then. During the Mitose/Chow era. Parker has always spelled it with an N. Of course now we have the Adriano Emperado Kajukenbo/Kajukenpo debate. :eek:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

There were cross-steps.

Now there's something. The beginning kata salute. It's the same as this one except there's an extra push at the end, so wipe and push down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhH1fOZJMpY


Wow.
I can honetly say that I've never seen Tracy's kempo (or kenpo - like there is some kind of difference) before. That was literally the worst garbage I have ever seen. I think it's actually worse that Shaolin-Do and Chung Moo Quan. I pity the people who practice this and think it's a martial art. If that is what the Tracy's actually created,...they are skill-less f*cking idiots.

[neilhytholt]

Wow.
I can honetly say that I've never seen Tracy's kempo (or kenpo - like there is some kind of difference) before. That was literally the worst garbage I have ever seen. I think it's actually worse that Shaolin-Do and Chung Moo Quan. I pity the people who practice this and think it's a martial art. If that is what the Tracy's actually created,...they are skill-less f*cking idiots.

The way they do things doesn't seem to work. They were one of the original huge Chain schools. I don't know which came first, them or Daniel K. Pai's schools.

The problem is they seem to focus on all these self defense combinations -- they've got like 600 of them or more. From when kempo students tried to do UFCs and stuff, a lot of them were ineffective.

[cjurakpt]

Wow.
I can honetly say that I've never seen Tracy's kempo (or kenpo - like there is some kind of difference) before. That was literally the worst garbage I have ever seen. I think it's actually worse that Shaolin-Do and Chung Moo Quan. I pity the people who practice this and think it's a martial art. If that is what the Tracy's actually created,...they are skill-less f*cking idiots.

it's probably sign of the times - 30 years ago what they "invented" might have looked awesome compaired to what else was out there - butnow it's mediocre at best; but with kem/npo in general, that is, to me, the case - I mean, you look at Parker's old vids: back then he must have seemed incredible relative to most others, but quite frankly, in terms of what's out there now, it's not particularly impressive or even all that interesting: whipping his hands around in front of some guy standing still, SD apps that really are contextually unsound (like this video: who's really impressed by how well he can NOT hit someone? especially after he measures his distance slowly at first? hello? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56dhLpcLbSk) of course, he's the "great" Ed Parker, so people can get all emotional if you dare suggest something like this, but I'm just looking at the content, not the context...

[Becca]

I think it is simply what alot of people did when they branched out on their own from Chow, and parker, etc. Look at Pai-Lum, and all the various Kenpo styles-Bing Suey,San Chai,BKF Kenpo, etc many had the same techniques, with different names, added twists, such as BKF had different names and added spinning back kicks to end the techniques, Tracy had the "soft bow hammerfist,back kick, cross out" stuff. If it has the cross out guard-it is most likely a kenpo derivitave.
Beet me to it.
Pai Lum Colorado don't look exactly the same as Pai Lum Dao. And It looks a bit different from the east coast Pai Lum, too. All from Grandmaster Pai. And almost all of it was tuaght to the ranking sifus by the grandmaster, himself!

neilhytholt - if I might make a suggestion? Rather than looking at the full forms, look at the technical stuff. While there is a wide range in differances in Pai Lum, the basic details are the same, no mater which grandson or nephew you study under: the way an X-block is used, they way a kick is chambered, and so forth.

[Becca]

The way they do things doesn't seem to work. They were one of the original huge Chain schools. I don't know which came first, them or Daniel K. Pai's schools.

The problem is they seem to focus on all these self defense combinations -- they've got like 600 of them or more. From when kempo students tried to do UFCs and stuff, a lot of them were ineffective.

Same time, roughly. And no, most Pai Lum selfdefences don't work with MMA format without modification, and sometimes not even then. They are what they are, and they are not a replacement for live sparring.

[MasterKiller]

So the super tough training Neil had as a youth that was a mixtured of CLF, ARMY combatives, and JKD was really Tracy Kempo?

[neilhytholt]

So the super tough training Neil had as a youth that was a mixtured of CLF, ARMY combatives, and JKD was really Tracy Kempo?

No, it's not the same. I went through all the Tracy DVDs, and American Kempo DVDs. I downloaded what Shou Shu forms I could find.

The Shou Shu forms are much longer and much more flowery, and the techniques aren't the same. The Tracys and American Kempo stuff is definitely similar to some of the self defenses but not the same, tackle defense is not the same. We had a self defense against garrote and that doesn't seem to be there.

Tracys and American Kempo don't do the wing chun chi sao, or the same kicks and stances. Their forms are much more karate looking.

So honestly I don't know what's up with it. I don't even know where the CLF and Taiji comes from. My sifu said he took it in Chinatown in San Francisco "in a parking lot" from some guy who didn't speak any English. He doesn't even remember the guy's name. ???

But the animals and 'way of the beast' seems to be related to Shou Shu, so perhaps it's an earlier version of shou shu. But from the shou shu vids, forms, and photos, it doesn't appear to be the same.

[Royal Dragon]

It's just all the stuff he learned over his martial career, you won't find it anywhere but through him.

[neilhytholt]

It's just all the stuff he learned over his martial career, you won't find it anywhere but through him.

Yeah, he retired a long time ago and closed down his school. He couldn't compete with TKD and stuff. Towards the end I think he was just teaching CLF anyways. Last time I went to his class he was teaching a lot of foreign exchange students CLF.

[neilhytholt]

BTW, does anybody notice that a LOT of people have gotten extremely fat recently?

I didn't think late 30s was that old, but I've been looking up a lot of people I used to know in high school, and it seems like 90% of them are very overweight/obese now.

[PangQuan]

people are just afraid to run, exercize and eat right is all.

hell i dont eat right half the time but i make up for it by working till i puke

martial bulimia FTW!! :D

[Royal Dragon]

It comes from sitting and living off of Mcdonalds.

[neilhytholt]

It comes from sitting and living off of Mcdonalds.

I was visiting with an old friend who was always pretty heavy, and he was getting on my case because I've gained about 20 lbs. since high school.

The irony that he's put on about 75 lbs. from then when he was already heavy, and now qualifies as being obese, I guess was lost on him.

Anyways, it just seems like life is too stressful for a lot of people, so overweight, I don't think that's good, but it seems to be inevitable given time limitations and lack of exercise and stuff. But it seems like a lot of people have gone beyond that where they don't even try to lose weight anymore.

[PangQuan]

hell i couldnt be happier that ive put on 20+ lbs. since high school.

i got tired of being a string bean. of course its been about 10 years so....

[xcakid]

I stopped training about 12-13yrs ago. Ballooned up from 175 to 235. Back in 2003 I went on a lo-carb diet and stuck to it till now. I am currently hovering between 195-200. Training again as of 3mos ago. Although I have not lost anymore weight, I do notice pants are fitting looser. :D

I run across quite a few instructors that have the buddha belly. If they just do their forms from begginer to black at least 3X a wk. I am sure they would be able to drop a few.

People just get lazy as they get older.

[PangQuan]

Anyways, it just seems like life is too stressful for a lot of people, so overweight, I don't think that's good, but it seems to be inevitable given time limitations and lack of exercise and stuff. But it seems like a lot of people have gone beyond that where they don't even try to lose weight anymore.

seriously valid points

a lot of people are ashamed of how they look and dont want to get out there and lose the weight. they dont know how and dont want to ask for help.

not to mention i cannot imagine how hard it must be to work out when your that big.

but it can be done.

[neilhytholt]

hell i couldnt be happier that ive put on 20+ lbs. since high school.

i got tired of being a string bean. of course its been about 10 years so....

It IS extremely difficult to lose weight. But there's something wrong here with these people who are so big. I don't know what it is, but it seems like we've got to do something about it.

Losing weight seems to be hard beyond a point. I don't know what it is about the last 20 lbs. I get down 5 lbs. or 7 lbs., and then it's the darndest thing. I just uncontrollably binge eat until I'm back up again.

[PangQuan]

hmmm

it seems to me repitition is the key.

i have noticed many people lose heart or get discouraged before they get a chance to actually make thier practice habitual.

you mention benge eating.

ive never struggled with a weight problem (other than being the 130lb. weakling in school) but it seems to me that, similar to drinking, cutting the benging out of the routine would be ideal :p

i do understand how difficult that could be though, as we all have our own vises to deal with, i have my own.

unfortunately i have no idea on how to stop this type of benge thing

[neilhytholt]

unfortunately i have no idea on how to stop this type of benge thing

That's the thing. Somebody somewhere I ran across a couple of months ago said that when new fat cells are created, they never go away, they are just not full. So that's why it's so hard to lose weight because they 'want to be full'???

I don't know if that's true or not.

But what seems to happen is that it's this just huge hunger. It's like, lose 5 lbs., then suddenly, this HUGE hunger, and you just can't stop eating for a few days.

[Becca]

That's the thing. Somebody somewhere I ran across a couple of months ago said that when new fat cells are created, they never go away, they are just not full. So that's why it's so hard to lose weight because they 'want to be full'???

Yes and no. You are born with all the fat cells you are going to have, but you are correct that you don't loose the cells, just what is stored in them. There was a fad going around a few years ago about being able to "turn off" your fat cells so they don't "want" to store fat. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this is a wierd off-spin of what actually does happen.



"Although research on fat cells is a relatively new area of discovery, it is believed that fat cells in different parts of the body have different functions and therefore the fat within them may be more (or less) resistant to loss." (http://health.msn.com/dietfitness/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100124250)

-adding another quote from this author...


New technology allows researchers to measure physiological processes more precisely. But new discoveries often raise more questions, making something that seemed simple more complicated. Fat is a prime example. Fifteen years ago, scientists thought that fat tissue was merely a depot for excess fat. In recent years, fat has come to be seen as an endocrine organ, much like the pancreas or thyroid, because scientists discovered that fat cells produce a variety of hormones such as leptin and adiponectin. Each of these not only play a role in energy expenditure (how many calories your body uses and stores) but other bodily functions as well. So the more that is learned about fat, the more there is to know.

But what is understood in academic circles isn’t always relayed to the public. Fitness or weight-loss information that you get from TV, a popular book or a trainer may not always be up-to-date or accurate. Or there may be nuances that are left out. Some fad diet books manipulate or simplify scientific facts in order to make invalid or unproven claims. This information gets passed by word of mouth and only confuses people more.

[Royal Dragon]

I generally gain weight all winter, and lose all summer. The hard part for me the last few years is losing more than I gain. I seem to be about even.

I have found that long distance hiking after an hour or 2 of Kung Fu forms and conditioning works best...but I don't have 4-6 hours a day to do that (Although I would if I could)

[Black Jack II]

It is not that hard to loose weight from a physical perspective. It's all about math.

The hard part is adjusting yourself to not be lazy about it and stop making excuses.

[neilhytholt]

It is not that hard to loose weight from a physical perspective. It's all about math.

The hard part is adjusting yourself to not be lazy about it and stop making excuses.

I don't think it's all about math.

It sounds easy, right? Eat less than you burn off. But some people eat more when they're stressed right? And people are stressed out more than ever these days.

I'd blame it all on laziness, but I don't think that can account for all the huge people. My friend who is huge isn't exactly lazy. He gets up in the morning, takes care of the kids, goes to work, commutes a lot each way, comes home, does chores, more taking care of the kids, driving them around, shopping, more chores, helping kids out with homework, taking care of family matters, and then about half an hour of T.V. before crashing.

I wouldn't exactly call that lazy. Too busy to take care of his health, maybe, but not lazy.

[Royal Dragon]

I think a lot of it has to do with all the wierd chems in modern food too. I know I feel better, and drop weigt faster when i eat all organic foods, especially if i eat about 50% raw fruites and veggies, to 50% meat varieties. Fruits for breakfast, a little meat, but mostly raw veggies for lunch, and pretty much all meat for dinner.

I have found making my over all meals smaller during the day, and adding one more meal about 1-1/2 before I work out followed by a later dinner seems to work better too.

[Black Jack II]

Too busy to take care of his health, maybe, but not lazy

That is a cop out.

It is about math in the long run, despite any psychological ring someone may pin on it, burn more than you take in, find your base and work off it.

It's as simple as the day is long but people like there cake and donuts way to much.

[neilhytholt]

That is a cop out.

It is about math in the long run, despite any psychological ring someone may pin on it, burn more than you take in, find your base and work off it.

It's as simple as the day is long but people like there cake and donuts way to much.

I don't think it's a cop out, because like my friend used to go work out every night, but his wife was stuck with the kids.

She went back to work because costs of living rose, and now doesn't want to be stuck with the kids while he works out because she works all day. So now to keep his marriage together he can't go work out anymore.

It is truly a societal phenomenon. True, some of the people appear to be just lazy gluttons, but I don't think you can blame it all on that.

[PangQuan]

one of the things ive noticed in large part is portions.

often if you go to a resturaunt or prepare a meal at home, people feel the need to eat everything they see rather than simply listening to their bodies and eating just enought.

"eat everything on your plate or no desert" how many of us have heard this before? so you have to over eat so, what.....so you can eat more? and desert at that, sugar and fat.....lol

I personally like to eat small portions, just more often than 3 meals.

but it beats eating 3 fat honkin "american style" meals every day.

plus

run

run

run

run

run

run

run


i cannot stress running or some sort of equivelant enough in this matter

[neilhytholt]

one of the things ive noticed in large part is portions.


Yeah, the movie theatre especially, I was talking to them about that the other day. A small drink now is like larger than a Big Gulp used to be. The large size is like a gallon.

[PangQuan]

ya, people want more more more more....its frightening.

another thing has to do with where you live of course.

even a poor american could be considered extremely wealthy compared to many other cultures.

americans ( as well as other countries, not picking on america, i just live here so its easy ;) )have the ability at any time they want to become total Gluttons. which i see taken advantage of on a regular basis.

[neilhytholt]

ya, people want more more more more....its frightening.

another thing has to do with where you live of course.

even a poor american could be considered extremely wealthy compared to many other cultures.

americans ( as well as other countries, not picking on america, i just live here so its easy ;) )have the ability at any time they want to become total Gluttons. which i see taken advantage of on a regular basis.

Isn't that the nature of societies? Struggle to get going, then a period of prosperity followed by decadence and then everybody gets lazy and the country falls apart or gets taken over by somebody.

It would seem the U.S. is in its decadent/falling apart phase right now.

[PangQuan]

now that you mention it, it has been the fad for the past several thousand years hasnt it?

babylon, rome, america...

[SevenStar]

I don't think it's a cop out, because like my friend used to go work out every night, but his wife was stuck with the kids.

She went back to work because costs of living rose, and now doesn't want to be stuck with the kids while he works out because she works all day. So now to keep his marriage together he can't go work out anymore.

It is truly a societal phenomenon. True, some of the people appear to be just lazy gluttons, but I don't think you can blame it all on that.

i'm sorry, but that is crap. he can work out in his home. ANYBODY can put a few sets of dumbells in their home and buy some aerobics DVDs. I started taking my oldest kid to the MA clubs with me when he was 2. he has literally been around martial arts his entire life. where there's a will, there's a way.

[neilhytholt]

i'm sorry, but that is crap. he can work out in his home. ANYBODY can put a few sets of dumbells in their home and buy some aerobics DVDs. I started taking my oldest kid to the MA clubs with me when he was 2. he has literally been around martial arts his entire life. where there's a will, there's a way.

Trust me, I've met his wife. He's doomed in this respect unless he decides to get a divorce. Which will probably happen soon if he likes it or not given his balooning physique.

I don't know what happens to women after they get married they reach a certain age and they're like drill sargeants. Take out the trash. Do the dishes. Unload the washing machine. Take me shopping. Take (insert name) to (insert place).

[SevenStar]

It IS extremely difficult to lose weight. But there's something wrong here with these people who are so big. I don't know what it is, but it seems like we've got to do something about it.

Losing weight seems to be hard beyond a point. I don't know what it is about the last 20 lbs. I get down 5 lbs. or 7 lbs., and then it's the darndest thing. I just uncontrollably binge eat until I'm back up again.

the first several pounds are always shed the easiest - you have excess weight to jettison. as you progress, it is harder to lose because you have less of it. ever notice how someone weighing 300 lbs can lose like 30 lbs in a couple months or less?

binge eating, IME, is a direct result of diet. people who try to diet too strictly (no carbs, no sweets, no fried foods, etc.) tend to have urges to consume the foods they have forbidden themselves from eating. portion control is key. everything in moderation.

[SevenStar]

[QUOTE=neilhytholt;747682]Trust me, I've met his wife. He's doomed in this respect unless he decides to get a divorce. Which will probably happen soon if he likes it or not given his balooning physique.
[QUOTE]

what does his physique have to do with his marital status?

[neilhytholt]

what does his physique have to do with his marital status?

Well, like I said, he used to go work out almost every night. After work, he was commuting 3 hours a day to and from work, so he'd go work out at night. He was hardly ever home.

He was still heavy, but not nearly as heavy as he his now.

While he was gone all the time, his wife wasn't working but she was going to school and taking care of the kid (now they have 2 kids), and would complain to me she didn't have time to work out.

So when she went back to work because they needed the money and she finished school, she said he had to stay home and spend more time with the kids. He has less of a commute now, but it's still like 1.5 hours.

I visited them for many nights. Basically, he's doing chores now all the time in addition to carting kids to/from various places so she can have her 'off time'. She won't LET him work out. There's always something new to do around the house, more chores to do. To assert that he needs to work out at this point would likely mean he would get divorced.

I mean, when I visited, she had ME doing chores. I wasn't even staying there.

So I don't know what he could do, dieting? He's so stressed out all the time that he eats a lot. I don't know how he could diet.

Meantime, he's getting bigger and she's not as big, plus one of his rich relatives is almost dead and he stands to inherit a decent amount of money.

Once that happens, he inherits a big chunk of money, so it's logical that with money, a hugely obese husband, and her kids taken care of, she'll divorce him. Maybe not, but she'll probably divorce him.

[Royal Dragon]

This is why I date many, and Marry none.

[SevenStar]

have him donate the money to you. i'm sure there is some legal way to set it up. you can keep it for him.

[neilhytholt]

have him donate the money to you. i'm sure there is some legal way to set it up. you can keep it for him.

That would be nice. I could 'invest' it for him, too, like a big house, some cars, etc. I mentioned that he might want to try to find some kind of trust, but he doesn't think they'll ever get divorced. Maybe he's right.

[neilhytholt]

Okay, so I finally got the scoop on the style from the guy's sister.

It was exactly like they said, it was all the stuff the guy took everywhere all merged together.

The rest, his sister says he literally "dreamed up" because he would wake her up in the middle of the night "hundreds of times" to try out a new technique on her that he dreamt up.

[Royal Dragon]

He slept with is sister?

[neilhytholt]

He slept with is sister?

No, she was his training partner. He'd wake her up in the middle of the night to try out some new move he dreamt up.

Anyways, I'm through with teachers. I just had a conversation with another one tonight and he just kept lecturing on and on and on.

As far as I'm concerned all the MA teachers can jump into the Pacific Ocean.

[neilhytholt]

You know, the reason these teachers are such lecturing numbskulls is pretty obvious.

It's because most CMA teachers don't fight.

They can't show you them winning any fights, so instead they do these little push-hands demonstrations, or talk your ear off about how great they are and how other teachers suck, or show their lineage and pedigrees.

It's a load of crap, is what it is.

[SanHeChuan]

I lost 5lbs when I left the Marine Corps. I think it's because I have a kitchen now, and can cook for my self.

My only exercise now is KF class three times a week. And I don't eat out as much and my options for eating out are healthier.

Stress does make it harder to lose weight, but working out is suppose to relieve stress.

I think I have less stress now, not that I had much to be stressed about before. The Marine Corps likes to invent stress for you though.

Maybe I'm just losing muscle :eek:

[Becca]

That is a cop out... It's as simple as the day is long but people like there cake and donuts way to much.

Yep, that's me, too. And also blue berry muffins. I always do better if I stay away from baked goods of any kind.:o