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B.Tunks
03-21-2007, 06:51 AM
Continued from the other thread:

RF,

>Thanks for the reply.

No worries.

> I know what you mean. I saw, for example, a video of Yu Tianlu playing a Fan Che form and it's pretty standard as far as stances and moves go. However, It looks to me that the footwork in our (Luo Guang Yu - Lin Bo Yan) family is quite different to that of the Shandong based clubs.

It would be for some (as it may even be when compared to some other streams of the LGY line). However, it's probably not ideal to compare by video.

>I don't like that system of place names for Mantis that I brought up for a few reasons. The group of similar styles I mentioned gets called Hong Kong Mantis.

Not always.

>However, Lin Boyan trained directly with Luo Guang Yu in Shanghai early on, then after he graduated eventually relocated to Malaysia and Singapore where he trained his next generation. Hong Kong was not in the equation at all.

Agreed. This is why I would never refer to it as such (and although I am not paid as Steve Cottrell's defence lawyer, I'm pretty sure that he has never made that mistake in regards to your line either). However, I wouldn't hesitate to add the SE Asia or Malaysia descriptor to the LGY or Jingwu labels. It just makes it a little easier, especially as people generally know that when using such names you are referring to descendants of LBY, HJH etc.

>If pressed to identify groups that appear more similar to each other and give them place names I usually come up with these:

1) Post revolution mainland China Mantis
2) Everywhere else Mantis.

Although personally I think this is little too broad, its just as reasonable and if it suits your purposes then its good enough.

>And don't forget I'm only talking about Seven Star.

Post revolution mainland seven star mantis would include LGY and all of his descendants up until the anti-Japanese war, which lumps it in with just about everything else apart from it's derivatives in HK, Macau and SE Asia (and the West). In that case, your own family would be in a separate category from it's root school. Is that what you mean?

If you meant post-cultural revolution then that's a whole other kettle of fish.

>And finally - Luo Guang Yu was from Shandong as is the known lineage of 7* so it's all Shandong Mantis.

Right. It is. However, no matter how much in common, there are still variations which do occur in different countries, regions and cities.

>Of course, we know what we mean and that's just semantics - which is what a lot of this comes down to finally.

Agreed. Any deeper would be a bit pointless as we both seem to have our clear positions and therefore might possibly understand each other a little better. Interesting all the same.

BT

B.Tunks
03-22-2007, 05:26 AM
Sorry, should clarify. Referring to revolution, I meant foundation of republic (1912) as opposed to PRC.

BT

Redfish
03-22-2007, 05:52 AM
Thanks again for the detailed and rational reply.

By revolution I meant the taking of the national goverment by the CCP in 1949.

We talked about the groups with big differences and you rightly pointed out that there are differences again within the groups I mentioned.

Within the Shandong scene are there differences inside 7-star that make groups equally as different from each other as Wong Hon Fun is from Yu Tian Cheng, for example?

RF

B.Tunks
03-22-2007, 03:38 PM
RF,

>By revolution I meant the taking of the national goverment by the CCP in 1949.

OK. In that case, the Tanglang of all of Fan Xudong's students are still grouped together in the same category (eg, Lin Jingshan, Luo Guangyu, Yang Weixin, Guo Jialu, etc), and therefore that of their descendants- apart from deviations such as Yu Hai's competition version, as they are all pre PRC.
I don't know if by referring to the revolution as a reference point that you are implying that all Tanglang in China changed as a result of, or soon after the establishment of the PRC or not. However, in my opinion it didn't (at least there isn't much evidence in support of that idea). Even the supposed all-pervasive influence of modern wushu wasn't until later (across the board), and in TLQ later still.

>We talked about the groups with big differences and you rightly pointed out that there are differences again within the groups I mentioned.
Within the Shandong scene are there differences inside 7-star that make groups equally as different from each other as Wong Hon Fun is from Yu Tian Cheng, for example?

There are differences, but not having seen WHF move with my own eyes, I can't tell just how different he would have been from YTC. I can get something of an idea from photos, but not too much as they are posed stills and it would be in the motions between that we could compare. Of course I realise they would be different if compared. Would there be an equal amount of difference within other reps of QXTL as the supposed diffs between those two? Yes, definitely. However, there are less 'streams' then in other families of TLQ, such as TJ, TJMH, MH etc. There are probably only 4 major variants in the QX that is found today in Shandong. Beyond that, there is the matter of the personal flavour of the masters that are responsible for the schools we see today, but that's the same in every family. It's probably more accurate to say that the diffs would be closer to those between WHF and Chu Chi Man rather than those between WHF and YTC.

BT

Redfish
03-22-2007, 07:35 PM
So, apart from "flavour" the Shandong 7* clubs are pretty much the same?

Yes, you're right in your reading of my posts that I think it was all in line prior to WW2.

RF

B.Tunks
03-22-2007, 08:59 PM
So, apart from "flavour" the Shandong 7* clubs are pretty much the same?

Yes, you're right in your reading of my posts that I think it was all in line prior to WW2.

RF

RF,

Yes, apart from from a few curriculum differences here and there (eg. Qingdao has more Bai Yuan forms, some in Laiyang, Qingdao and Liaoning include Ba Zhou etc) and weapons variation, which in my opinion is secondary. And not including any schools that use the name but are bogus. There are also some taolua nd weapons that are taught at some legitimate Qixing schools that are modern creations.

BT

Bt