muay thai and san shou

[BruceSteveRoy]

i have been trying to find a comparison of these two styles on the internet but it seems that people can't discuss this topic without bickering. maybe its bc the people that practice these are so used to fighting that they even have to verbally fight about fighting. who knows. but i am trying to have faith in the fine people (as always using that term loosely) of this forum to intelligently discuss this topic.

what i can gleen from other people talking about the two styles is that the biggest difference* is that san shou incorporates throws and take downs although competition san shou doesnt allow striking after the person is down. but other than that aspect stylistically what differs. has anyone here done both and can compare contrast methods of power generation, fighting theory, training methodology (although i know this is more dependant on the school and not the style but if there is anything worth mentioning that differs i would be curious to hear it).

i am not looking for what is "better" as much as i am looking for differences and similarities between the two. i am not looking for subjectivity but rather an objective comparison.

thanks

*that is to say the biggest difference besides that they are two separate styles, from different cultures, different countries etc.

[Ben Gash]

It's a very difficult question to answer, as San Shou is more of an ethos than a style. Most of us come from TCMA backgrounds, and indeed many of us still practice and teach TCMA. Therefore much of our San Shou is influenced by our TCMA, leading to quite large stylistic differences. I would imagine that there is a very distinct CLF influence to my San Shou (indeed, I don't really jab, it's more like a heavy front hand crossed with a Tsop Chui), and Ross will tell you that his stuff is Lama derived, and I'm sure the others will also support this.
Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I suppose that the real difference is that MT is a clearly defined style, whereas San Shou is a training and fighting format.

[Water-quan]

Over all, very very similar arts. Like the previous respondee says, San Shou fighters may come from a stylistic background which flavour their style, but over all - almost identical looking arts. San Shou allows you to score from throw throw, and usually has a points system... also, front check side kick is a very standard san shou technique. Training methods are almost identical, only differing with the different rules and odd technique.

[SevenStar]

search these forums. we have had several of these discussions here, and also on the muay thai board at karateforums.com

muay thai
knees
tiip
takedowns
roundhouse

san shou
throws
sidekick

tactically, these are probably what really set these venues apart. muay thai tends to employ the tiip in similar fashion to a jab. IME, many people tiip faster than they sidekick, which is why the tiip is used more in mt, though the sidekick can serve the same purpose.

that said, the sidekick is harder to scoop or catch than the tiip and roundhouse, which is a big concern in san shou since they can do conventional throws.

muay thai does not permit judo-esque throws and sweeps. a takedown typically happens from a grabbed knee during a clinch or a kick to the supporting leg, like a cut kick. muay thai does not score throws. they are used to determine advantage. if two fighters are tied, an advantage will go to the one with more throws.

[Pork Chop]

basically what 7* said.

if i was going to add anything, it'd only be the following observations:

Thais: usually stay relaxed while waiting for the right moment and unleash something big. range is relatively close- they're comfortable staying in the kitchen (striking range). if it goes to the clinch: achieve dominant position and then let the knees & elbows go.

Dutch: hard, fast, hand & feet combos- tend to start with hands and end with leg kicks. Not as strong in the clinch as the thais, but no slouches. not as pronounced use of the teep. Not quite as relaxed in firing range, if they're there they're usually throwing.

Sanshou: quick footwork, darting in and out of range. combos seem a bit more about speed as they want to close distance & finish with a throw. Sidekick works as distance closer & distance keeper. Under Thai rules, have a bit of a hard time seeing Thai's "dominant position" as such.

[golden arhat]

what i am more interested in is how san da compares with TCMA
because for the most part i see almost no influence from TCMA at all and almost all being MT

where is the kung fu ?

i still want to train in san da tho
so while i'm here does anyone know any good teachers in the manchester area ??

[Pork Chop]

muay thai is probably closer to TCMA than you think, with tons of emphasis put on centerline, closing distance, controlling balance, etc. "dirty tricks" in muay thai were straight outta my old kung fu play book.

that being said, i see a more limited influence on san da from muay thai than you do. san da has limited use of the push kick, which is the muay thai staple, because it's easy to catch. san da kicks will be more about speed than power so they don't get caught. round kicks are generally thrown differently. each adopts a much different fighting stance. each acts differently in the clinch.

you should really watch the san da training videos from china. if you think those punches are boxing or muay thai inspired, then i'm sorry, but you don't know boxing or muay thai.

yeah, san da doesn't fight out of low stances much.
yeah, some of the bridging is adapted for the gloves.
it doesn't mean it's completely all the influence.

[SanHeChuan]

Not all San da fighters train TCMA. I've known Shidokan karate guys and MMA guys to fight San da too. The TCMA is there if the fighter wants it to be. My 7* teacher does a good job of bridging the "gap:rolleyes:" between the two.

And as an outside observer you not going to be able to draw the comparisons that one who trains TCMA and San da or Muay thai and San Da could make. You cant see the details. That is the truth for any two styles. Leave to comparisons to those who actually do them.

[SevenStar]

what i am more interested in is how san da compares with TCMA
because for the most part i see almost no influence from TCMA at all and almost all being MT

where is the kung fu ?

i still want to train in san da tho
so while i'm here does anyone know any good teachers in the manchester area ??

where are you only seeing MT?

[Knifefighter]

And as an outside observer you not going to be able to draw the comparisons that one who trains TCMA and San da or Muay thai and San Da could make. You cant see the details. That is the truth for any two styles. Leave to comparisons to those who actually do them.

Funny how an "outside observer" can see boxing/muay thai/wrestling/judo/BJJ when people fight with those styles.

[SanHeChuan]

If you don't study a style the difference between you and some who does is the same between you and someone who couldn't tell karate from judo. There is a whole other level of understanding. Saying that what someone does looks like MT even though neither they nor you have ever trained MT makes no sense. If you haven't trained MT or San shou your making a comparison off of broad undefined understanding(ingornace) of what either really are.

Just because there is some stupid b@stard out there that thinks that tae kwon do and Muay thai are the same based on what he's seen on TV doesn't mean his opinion is valid.

If you showed one of those so called Internet experts a video of a MT guy dress in a Dobak throwing kicks if the air, they would think he trained Tae kwon do. They know its boxing/muay thai/wrestling/judo/BJJ because they are told it is. If you take the art out of the context it is identified with they wouldn't be such experts.

[Pork Chop]

Funny how an "outside observer" can see boxing/muay thai/wrestling/judo/BJJ when people fight with those styles.

o.O wtf are you smokin?
you're going to tell me that any outside observer, right off the bat, will be able to tell the differences between freestyle, folkstyle, greco-roman, and no-gi jiujitsu?
what about muay thai, international rules, leg kick, and american rules kickboxing (when they're not wearing silk pants)?

Most people who are not intimately familiar with the rules & training of a particular sport aren't going to distinguish what comes from where. Try telling a Muay Thai guy that people who do american rules are doing "the same thing" and train "the same way". See how quick you get smacked. San shou's it's own thing. The kung fu influence should be easy to see for anyone who's spent significant time in muay thai and/or boxing.

[PangQuan]

must just be me but the kung fu influence in a lot of san shou is obvious because i study chinese bases styles. which much san shou is based from.

you will notice things that are done the same way you do them.

like i always notice people with the exact same shoes i have on. but i never pay attention to fools wearing nike'

[SanHeChuan]

And if your comparing two arts and you only have a reference point for one of them, say boxing. You can look at something else and see it's kinda like boxing but not really so it must be "bad boxing". When it's not boxing at all or even trying to be boxing.

Yep they identified it all right that style right there is the famous bad boxing style.

[PangQuan]

And if your comparing two arts and you only have a reference point for one of them, say boxing. You can look at something else and see it's kinda like boxing but not really so it must be "bad boxing". When it's not boxing at all or even trying to be boxing.

Yep they identified it all right that style right there is the famous bad boxing style.


i see this happen ALLLL the freakin time. its annoying but i just ignore it.

[rogue]

what i am more interested in is how san da compares with TCMA
because for the most part i see almost no influence from TCMA at all and almost all being MT

where is the kung fu ?

i still want to train in san da tho
so while i'm here does anyone know any good teachers in the manchester area ??

Fred, a somewhat inexpensive way would be to check out David Ross' sanda videos. The traditional moves are there and easy to spot as long as you don't get caught up in the gear they're wearing, or the strippers practicing their pole dancing in the background. I'd still love to see a video on applied Lama Pai from David.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faC5VojHGSM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fsd2%2Fki ngofsanda%2Fsts%2Ehtml]Sanda Highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faC5VojHGSM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fsd2%2Fki ngofsanda%2Fsts%2Ehtml)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRkshRdppA&mode=related&search=]More highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRkshRdppA&mode=related&search=)
I don't think these high lights do the tape justice for what's on them.


Who's doing what in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=052lKTG7ohc&mode=related&search=

[PangQuan]

Who's doing what in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=052lKTG7ohc&mode=related&search=

simple deduction here but the guy with the shirt on threw the only kick combo's and head kicks and the guy with no shirt on went for the only take down on that vid.

based on deduction you would assume the guy with no shirt was jj and the guy with a shirt was tkd. but i dont practice either one of these arts, so i dont know for certain.

[rogue]

Can't be, the guy without a shirt threw more kicks than the other guy. So he must be the TKD guy.;)

[PangQuan]

lol.

i think they both are karateka

[rogue]

A video between BJJ and San Shou. Notice at the end how the San Shou guy makes the same mistake that every BJJ guy has made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdrf8u-fHos&NR

[PangQuan]

so that san shou guy has no ground training?

im actually suprised he lasted that long.

[SevenStar]

And if your comparing two arts and you only have a reference point for one of them, say boxing. You can look at something else and see it's kinda like boxing but not really so it must be "bad boxing". When it's not boxing at all or even trying to be boxing.

Yep they identified it all right that style right there is the famous bad boxing style.

the reason? fighting looks similar. reverse punch, cross, corkscrew punch, etc. are all the same. the minor differences only matter in forms and discussions. there are definite differences in thai and western punching, but on a large scale, it looks the same.

[lkfmdc]

Fred, a somewhat inexpensive way would be to check out David Ross' sanda videos. The traditional moves are there and easy to spot as long as you don't get caught up in the gear they're wearing, or the strippers practicing their pole dancing in the background. I'd still love to see a video on applied Lama Pai from David.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faC5VojHGSM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fsd2%2Fki ngofsanda%2Fsts%2Ehtml]Sanda Highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faC5VojHGSM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fsd2%2Fki ngofsanda%2Fsts%2Ehtml)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRkshRdppA&mode=related&search=]More highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRkshRdppA&mode=related&search=)
I don't think these high lights do the tape justice for what's on them.



The first clip isn't even from the DVD's, just random class and competition pics :p

We did throw together the highlight reels, and from only one of the 7 titles we have out now....

But I'm glad you enjoyed them

[rogue]

I'd think it would help the traditionalist if you put out a short video on YouTube showing how the traditional Lama Pai fits into the San da format.



OK, I'll be honest. I want to see that just because I'd enjoy it.:D