Can't sleep...

[Royal Dragon]

Why is it that at 3:00 PM I am so tired I can barely keep my eyes open, but if I force myself to train I will be up till 1:00 AM?

Why can't this amount of energy be avalaible to me during the day when i NEED it, and not be when I need to sleep?

[Oso]

stress, dude. I'm the same way...nothing seems to work for me either, need to quit the job, quit the school and go live on a beach somewheres.

I just had the worst night of sleep in months...:( :mad: :(

[MasterKiller]

So train at 6 AM and you should be set for the day.

I sleep like a baby.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL, at 6:00 am I am studying the markets. No way I'd be able to do something that physical at that time anyway. I'd have to wake at 4:00AM, and tripple over dose on stright Mahuang to work out that early.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i was going to say somethign similar to MK. your circadium rythm determines when you have the most and least energy in the course of the day. yours is a little out of whack probably and its not an easy thing to adjust.

also consider that the reason that you probably have trouble sleeping after you work out is that the increased blood flow to the muscles and the production of endorphines gives you a "2nd wind" right when you dont need it. if you can manage to work out before work or right when you wake up you can see if that gives more energy over the coarse of the day. if you are attending a class though you are kind of reliant on their schedule in which case you might want to go to a cvs and pick up some melatonin. i have heard mixed reviews on its effectiveness but whether it works for you or not it won't hurt to try it for a few weeks. also some studies indicate that people that work under flourescent lights have difficulty with insomnia. so if you do you might want to try to get more natural light. also of course no eating late, no caffiene after the middle part of your day. if nothing else helps go on medication (which i am opposed to unless its a last resort do to side effects and what not) bc sleep is very important.

o the other thing that is important for people that have difficulty sleeping is that no matter what time you go to bed make sure you wake up at the same time every day (even the weekends) . sleeping in is terrible for your circadian rythm and can worsen the problem. from a biological / neurological perspective you can not "catch up" on sleep. although on sunday i sure do try. but yeah eventually your body will start to respond appropriately to the schedule you set for it if you are strict about waking up at the same time every day.

[BruceSteveRoy]

if you are taking mahuang than you should stop. that could be the cause of your restlessness.

[bodhitree]

taking a ZMA supplement has greatly increased the quality of my rest and my energy levels. I take it once a day before bed.

[Black Jack II]

try taking a simple calicum supplement before bed, its a natural calming agent and has been known to help.

[GeneChing]

...that's one reason I became a writer.

I get fair results from melatonin and a shot of Jack. ;) I have to take it before midnight or I'll be drowsy in the morning.

You'll find an insomnia thread here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39758).

[BruceSteveRoy]

thats ok. the alcohol might increase the effect of the melotonin. for an insomniac any sleep is usually good sleep but one of the problems with taking alcohol to induce sleep is that it cuts the REM period short. which means you are not getting the kind of sleep you need. however the other cycles of sleep do rest the body and that is nothing to scoff at. have either of you ever contemplated the old saying 'no rest for the wicked'?

just a thought. ;)

[neilhytholt]

My grandmas take naps in the afternoon and then stay up late at night -- until 1am or so. Supposedly a some countries with hot climates have a siesta in the afternoon.

[Royal Dragon]

Funny you should mention seistas. My sister reacently went on vacation to the little villiage in Italy that my family is from. It seems every dy about 2-3:00 they all nap for an hour or so, but then are up later at nite.


It seems no matter what I do, I allways want to Nap about that time, and it really takes somethinge xtraordinary not to, like taking some sort of stimulant.

maybe this is genetic, since *Evryone* in my acestrial villiage does this as well.

My mom and Sister are also this way.

I have been through long periods where I had no Job (Long lay offs every summer etc...), and I noticed that when I don't have an alarm clock, I will sleep a little bit later every day, and stay up a little later every nite untill I am up all nite, and sleep all day. It takes about 6-7 weeks for my sleep cycle to slowly switch over, but when I go to sleep when I am tired, and STAY in bed untill I just can't anymore and have to get up because I have too much energy to lay down anymore, I generally feel stronger, healthier, and perform my best Kung Fu with the least effort.

I have also noticed that in winter, I tend to nap less, but sleep longer at nite (9-1/2 hours on average), but in Summer, I sleep less at nite, and tend to want to nap longer in the mid afternoon (7-8 hours a nite)

I honestly think I am just in a more nocternal phase of my bio rythum...it's just my work schedual does not agree with that.

[GeneChing]

Yea, that's often a mantra of mine. I hear you about ETOH & REM, but sometimes you just got to do what needs to be done.

On another note, there are some yogic and qigong methods to induce sleep. Yoga recommends forward bends, particularly halasana. You should also avoid back bends for the opposite reason. Halasana works well if you have a halasana bench. In qigong, some recommend standing zhuang zhang with your chin lowered and your eyes looking slightly above the horizon. Both have helped me in the past, but neither produced significant enough results for me to recommend it as a curative.

[Chief Fox]

Many people who can't sleep don't have a proper environment for sleep set up.

What do you do while lying in bed?

Do you read?

Watch TV?

Work?

All of these things require you to be awake. If you are doing these things, you are training your body to be awake when in your bed.

Make your bed only for sleeping and the standard adult activities ;) and you'll sleep better.

[Royal Dragon]

My bedroom is dark. i don't belive in anything like TV in bedrooms. I don't even like to date women who do that because I can't sleep if the TV is on. I have foound a lot of women like to have the TV on while they sleep at nite....it's weird...I can't do it. of course I rarely watch TV anyway, so those that need it on as a constant comapnion confuse me.

I think OSO's comment about stress may be the key though. I just started a new business, and i have been a bit over loaded with all the administrative issues.

[RonH]

So, what does it mean for the circadian rythm when you're an early bird, a night owl and whatever the animal is when you're full of energy in the middle of the day because that's what I am and I usually get between 4-6 hours a day.

[Royal Dragon]

You Smoke, drink too much caffine, or are just plain young and in top condition. It could also mean you don't do enough during the day....

When i was in my 20's, i could go for extended periods of time with just 5 hours a nite. Technically, i *Felt* fine, but when i started to sleep 8-9, my Kung Fu got bettter by leaps and bounds with much less effort.

Of course, now that I'm almost 40, I *NEED* 9 hours on average to be at my best.

[RonH]

I was born hyperactive. I was even put on drugs to get the hyperactivity down., They had no effect. I've gotten increasingly hyperactive exponentially as I've gotten older. It was always a slow increase. A year or so after I started martial arts, I found it was impossible for me to tire myself out physically (glucouse build up fatigue- I can slow myself down if I cause damage, such as what you need to build muscle, but I work out mainly so I don't have to worry about over stressing a muscle and destroying, like what happens with horses in fixed races; and even when I do damage a muscles, I just keep going, but with a lot of pain).

I've even tried not practicing and that doesn't help. I still see the skill increases, probably from the idea of letting your mind figure stuff out without you actively concentrating on it.

Before I liked even 9-12 hours of sleep about 10 years ago in my late teens, now I can't stand it because I get pain in a couple joints, since I don't move much when I sleep.

The only kind of tired I get is mentally tired, but the time between those occurrences happen keeps expanding more and more.

All this may sound cool, but it's so annoying for most of the people around me. If I let my self-control slip, I'll end up talking really fast and people get confused because they aren't used to people talking as fast as me and I gotta go back and say it all again. Every day I wake up with a new increase of hyperactivity now and have to reassert a new level of control. Even sleeping pills won't work work because the hyperactivity bulldozes on through and quickly overpowers the chemicals' effects. This means that it's very hard for me to even get drunk, too.

[AJM]

I've heard this complaint from a number of folks since last Monday. I think the last new moon preceeding the vernal equinox was a powerful combination pulling on peoples body fluid levels.

[Chief Fox]

I've heard this complaint from a number of folks since last Monday. I think the last new moon preceeding the vernal equinox was a powerful combination pulling on peoples body fluid levels.

The week of the full moon, I can never sleep. Well, I sleep, it's not very sound and I always wake up.

[Kristoffer]

I've slept like **** the last couple of days. I have trouble falling to sleep again if I wake up. Even if it's really ****ing early.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, here I am, up again...I've been up since 7:00 Am yesterday.....

I tried sniffing the essential oil of lavender...enough to knock and elephant out...it just gave me a tummy ache and I am still up....:(

I have not even practiced today, I worked all day to meet deadlines as I was behind. After 11 hours of staright work, you'd think I'd be overly exaughsted and just collapse... Nope, I just layed there and started at the celing not able to doze off at all....

Maybe I need to try eating a huge steak, or a turkey. Heavy meat based meal make me sleepy.

[neilhytholt]

Well, here I am, up again...I've been up since 7:00 Am yesterday.....

I tried sniffing the essential oil of lavender...enough to knock and elephant out...it just gave me a tummy ache and I am still up....:(

I have not even practiced today, I worked all day to meet deadlines as I was behind. After 11 hours of staright work, you'd think I'd be overly exaughsted and just collapse... Nope, I just layed there and started at the celing not able to doze off at all....

Maybe I need to try eating a huge steak, or a turkey. Heavy meat based meal make me sleepy.

Some people I've met swear by tryptophan. Milk has tryptophan. People have also said chamomile tea (with milk).

[Royal Dragon]

Catnip to. It's a stimulant in cats, but a seditive in humans.

[herb ox]

Reading your symptoms, I have to think that you may be a bit 'yin deficient'. Given your regular, intense workouts, the heat created by the exercise may be burning off all of your precious fluids thru prespiration and vapor exchange in your lungs as well as actually raising your metabolic rate and internal temperature.

Does your tongue have a thin/absent coat or a thick yellow/white one?

Do you feel slightly warm when you go to bed at night?

Anyways, yin deficiency can "heat the heart", causing insomnia and excessive thinking, restlessness and irritablility.

Eat pears and bananas after your workout to cool things off a bit. These foods 'generate fluids' in TCM. Watermelon juice is a good one, too.

Outside of that, I've always had decent results with melatonin - less is more with dosage, though and sublingual tablets seem to work the fastest.

peace

herb ox

[neilhytholt]

If you are taking ma huang, it seems like that could really be your problem depending upon what time of the day you take it.

I used to take the over the counter version of those pills that they used for truckers to stay awake on long trips sometimes because it acts like epinephrine. I think it lasts like 8-12 hours or something.

[Royal Dragon]

Does your tongue have a thin/absent coat or a thick yellow/white one?

Reply]
More white, but not thick? I don't know what you are looking for, it looks like a toung to me.

Do you feel slightly warm when you go to bed at night?

Reply]
No, just awake.

Anyways, yin deficiency can "heat the heart", causing insomnia and excessive thinking, restlessness and irritablility.

Reply]
Does eating meat replace deficient Yin? That seems to be helping.

[Black Jack II]

I am serious, if its just anxiety, try some calicum. Take around 500 mil's and it often takes the edge off.

[Royal Dragon]

I have been eating abit later (Heavy protine meals), and going to bed around 10:00-10:30, and that seems to be helping.

Also, I have changed my routine and lightened up on the conditioning to a more Qi Gong/Forms platform for now. I hate to do this because I have not met my current conditioning goals...it's still taking me 40 minutes to do a 25 minute routine...and I am not even useing wrist and ankle weights for the body weight exercises yet...but I am sleeping soundly all nite again.

Heavy conditioning allways exaughsts me right after the session, but once recovered (About an hour) I am very energetic. This rarely interfears with sleep, but I have some stress related issues right now, so backing off seems to be helping.

[Cheng oi]

I have never slept - all my life - it's torture
now I grow herbs & eat them - no more sleep problems - no more nightmares
:):):):):):):)

I would like to start growing Herbs for energy as well :rolleyes:
because my disability doesn't leave money for pre made concoctions

[Cheng oi]

More than 30% of the population suffers from insomnia.

Between 40% and 60% of people over the age of 60 suffer from insomnia.

[crazychang]

I've got a book on chinese medicine that suggests putting an onion in a jar and inhaling it for 10 minutes whilst in bed for insomnia! Doesn't sound like it will work but it must comes from some folk remedy.

My mother has insomnia and she tried acupuncture which put her to sleep during the treatment, but otherwise wasn't that effective. But it might help if you have it often.

There are prescrition drugs that will forcefully knock you out but they are probably not to be recommended. I'd try chinese herbal medicine personally.


There is a meditation method where the mind focusses on a zero point then nothingness which puts you to sleep. No concentration on mental activity, breathing, or anything. The aim is to try and transcend the mind, body, thinking, space everything. If you do it properly you will probably go to sleep.

The other thing I found helpful is practising tai chi or training at a ridiculously late hour . I use to try and train till fairly late at night and always found myself lying asleep on the training space. that should probably help unless your insomnia is extreme.

[crazychang]

**** that should have been posted on the insomnia thread.