Small Joint Manipulation: Your Opinions...

[Clyde the Glide]

K. I have read a few books concerning chin-na, absolutely loved them. Great principles, good flow. Also looke at a little of Wally Jay's small circle jiu-jitsu. My question is this. What do you view as small joint manipulation's main role in your arsenal? It is found in almost every style of combat. I have yet to see a school that does not at least have wrist locks. My personal view is that they serve as a distraction, and as a set up to open even greater targets. In other words, in actual combat, a broken finger will not stop the opponent from fighting many times, but it does serve as a distraction in that it limits the functioning of that hand. Due to the limited function of that hand, both offense and defense are now effected. This allows for opening both in avoiding attacks and launching your own. They also serve me well when rolling in escaping from certain positions. I do not attack the fingers or toes, especially individually, but wrist locks and such help to keep them busy and distracted while I seek a greater advantage. I view pressure points in the same manner. I do not regard any as absolute fight stoppers, unless you break all 10 fingers or something to that degree, however, I find them a very fine addition to my over all arsenal. I would love to hear some feed back from guys on here with greater experience/training in these areas, especially chin-na. As a qualifier, I am considering small-joint as wrist or smaller (ie fingers, toes, but not say, the elbow).

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[shaolinboxer]

Wrist locks can be used to control or unbalance an opponent, and usually lead to other things (unless you are pinning someone).

[Godzilla]

Joint manipulation is great fun! Seems to go hand in hand with pressure points. After learning several Chin Na and pressure point techniques, you truly gain confidence in your ability to fight back when in close. You almost want to be grabbed so you can execute your techniques.

Being a TKDist, I never felt comfortable at close range. Now, instead of kicking or punching someone, I would rather grab an arm, wrist, hand, finger (take your pick!) twist, pull (or both) and end the confrontation immediately without any blood.

Fun, painful stuff. Keep looking into it!

Godzilla

PS I will be seeing Dr Yang for more Chin Na December 2nd in NJ.

[Water Dragon]

First, lets establish that a small joint manipulation is an advanced technique. That means that you probably do not want to depend on it as a mainstay in your technique base. If you have a good wrist lock, you should have a few good ways out if you need to abandon the technique. Basically, if you don’t have good punches and throws, why are you working on these locks?

Second, small joint manipulations are more like a “crime of opportunity”. They tend to work best when someone has a good grip on you such as a head lock, or have you held up against a wall, bully style. They make good add-on’s as well. I like to use a straight wrist press in conjunction with a BJJ arm bar. The arm bar takes priority, but the wrist press at the end is a nice touch.

Third, A lot of Chinese joint locks are not the same as the submission locks that you see in BJJ, Sambo, etc. Most of the time, the lock is actually a set up for a throw. If you get the lock, cool. You will break something on the way down. If you don’t get the lock,you should still be able to throw them. See point 1 about advanced techniques.

Lastly, a pet peeve of mine. Why the hell does everyone talk about breaking fingers? If you break a finger, it has become useless to you. You DO NOT want to break the finger as you lose control. You want to keep the finger unbroken so that you can control him. A broken finger will not stop a fight. If you want to break something, break an arm or dislocate a shoulder. Finger locks are for your drunk red neck cousin Hank who doesn’t know how to act.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Budokan]

No, my drunk redneck cousin Hank doesn't break fingers. He just stabs 'em with a pitchfork and strings their guts up along the barn rafters for the crows to pick at.

K. Mark Hoover

[Chang Style Novice]

I swear to Godzilla, I'm not posting this as a part of my campaign to be the Grand Ultimate Offtopic Digressor, but only because the set up is too good for me to leave be.

The best thing for small joint manipulation is a roach clip.

I'm very, truly sorry.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Stumblefist]

Breaking fingers has got a lot of practical usage like getting out of holds that you can't figure any other way out.

But the most important is when you catch a pickpocket in the act and you snap the fingers while the situation is still fluid and in a legal grey area. Now that's when you want to break fingers. It's a given.
It's a social charity to help prevent the guy from a life of light-fingered crime. ;)

[Xebsball]

Just wanted to remember you guys that chin na is both small and big joints lock, ok?

If you break someones wrist i bet they wont be able to punch with that hand anymore and if you break someones finger i bet his grip will lose a lot of power.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Clyde the Glide]

I agree, and said in my initial post, a broken finger will not end the fight. 10 (or 12 if you are in Alabama) may stop it, but who knows. I like the "crime of opportunity" description, very true. If it is there, take it, but it is only a garnishing and should not distract you from the main dish. I fully understand the use as a set up to throws and take downs, you have my agreement here as well. Seems most have agreed so far, though I have seen those who believe that in a grappling situation, they will just break a finger, and suddenly, they magically win. As though the guy who has managed to get them down or get a clinch with them will suddenly assume the deadly Ettish Fetal Fighting Position and leave them be. Seems to me, if you have a better understanding (as I am seeing clearly in the posts above), you will know that he who can maintain superior positioning and control (whether standing or on the ground) will have more ample opportunity to launch such attacks.


Also agree about breaking a wrist or finger greatly diminshes the ability of that weapon (ie the hand).




Nice, insightful posts for the most part.

Clydeus Maximus: Mutt-fu Grand Master and Dominator of Cocky Teenagers in my youth group.

[JasBourne]

*shrug* I study chin-na mostly so I can practice getting OUT of attempted jointlocks quickly, avoiding them altogether, or using the attempt to my advantage. Jointlocks are effective only if you have both the time and the extpertise to apply them correctly.

[Water Dragon]

I have to disagree Stumblefist. Ask a football player about a broken finger. A lot of times they still play for a while before they realize it's broken. I know I've done it. I stll argu that a manipulated finger is more useful to you than a broken one.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Godzilla]

Jas, I’d love to do some Chin Na with you!

I once tried to impress a young woman in my office with Chin Na. I think she was flirting with me. She asked if I would show her some karate. She looked so cute, I could have kissed her just for asking. We found an unused office room. All alone, she stood with her back to the file cabinets. She playfully punched my shoulders and smiled.

I gingerly took her hand and placed it onto my forearm. “Grab me here” I said. She did. We smiled at one another. I realized this is the closest we’ve ever been. I could feel her breath on my face. “Wow, she’s pretty.” I thought.

I then proceeded to bring her to her knees in horrible pain. She was pretty angry.

We never discuss ‘karate’ anymore and she never gets too close. I used to wonder if it was my breath or the Chin Na. I’m sure it was the Chin Na.

Wish I’d shown her a high block, snap kick or ‘karate’ chop.

Godzilla

[Kung Lek]

uhhh, you don't have to actually break the finger to break the hold.

only as much force as necessary.
Chin Na is defensive.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[yenhoi]

I have been in 3 'real life' confrontations (real fights?).

The 1 time I used a wrist lock I broke the guys arm - because I threw the guy, and held on.

He also ended up with some cracked ribs from a palm strike.

I dont fight competition, and In sparring I avoid joint locks, in future 'real' encounters I would expect to break more limbs and injure more joints when I obtain joint locks.

Just commenting on what use I personally get from small joint manipulation.

strike!

[HopGar]

Well, being that I'm in Hop Gar Kung Fu, and its Tibetan, we do not train that too much, we mostly rely on making the long-armed strikes shorten for infighting. We do some Chin-Na and throwing and its fun to do.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Crimson Phoenix]

Godzilla, ****** you screwed it up...it looks like she was in the mood for love, maybe your wrist wasn't the part you should have asked her to grab :rolleyes: hehehhehehe
And I know by personal experience that Qinna is a definitive love-killer...if she's in the mood for gong fu, you'd rather show her your waist power heheheheheheheheh
I'm feeling naughty today :D

[Kristoffer]

i "SHOWED" some chin na to my gf,, she almoust broke up with me. :rolleyes: No really! :D women and chin na dont mix. ;) period.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[dedalus]

In bagua we often look to break the elbow. Then we use the break as a (really painful) point of leverage. Nasty stuff.

So I disagree that a lock is defensive (unless you're subduing a mate) and I disagree that you lose control once you break the bone. Bone ends hurt if you keep abusing them.

[Budokan]

Laughing @ Godzilla.

That thing started off like a Penthouse Letter and then took a hard swerve to the left into "Sex Meat S&M". Caught me completely off guard--! :D

K. Mark Hoover

[Jaguar Wong]

I showed my wife some Chin Na...She almost broke me :eek: no exageration. Most women don't have a code of ethics when it comes to "practice" or "sparring". It's all a street fight to them. More power to 'em, I say. You gotta love that.

Jaguar Wong

[Stumblefist]

Godzilla:
I just don't understand that. You brought her to her knees in horrible pain, and she didn't want to jump your bones?
I have found that cute puppy dogs work better than chin-na to bring a woman to her knees.
:D :D :D

[Boulder Student]

I find the biggest problem with chin na is that it only truly works on somebody that doesn't know anything.

I have yet to see a chin na technique that cannot be effectively countered even after the practioner has it set. In my experience using chin na while I grapple, I can catch anybody with it once or twice. If the guy is complete idiot, I can do it to him over and over.

Another observation: Chin na uses a an extremity to control the spine. If your partner is fluid, like water, there are no locks. The only place I know the locks will work is when I have my partner in my closed guard. I already control their spine, so the lock works.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.