Serious question: Can you really learn internal forms without knowing the application?

[Fu-Pow]

Without all the variations on opening and closing and all the ways to move the dantien is it possible to learn the "correct" way to move without knowing the applications of the movements? Just something I thought of after my Taiji class.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Braden]

Yes and no. I have been taught that it is incorrect to explicitly practice our pre-heaven bagua for with applications in mind. It is about the movement. That said, there are many, many postures which made no sense to me (in terms of performing them properly) until I was exposed to some applications for them.

[Sam Wiley]

I suppose it is possible to learn the form that way, but it would be empty, both in terms of martial and health benefits. See, traditionally, the form was learned without applications just so the student could focus on the basic movements, but he was later taught the applications when he was shown how to begin opening and closing and moving from the center. The reason these two came together was that there was no need to teach movement from the center without the student learning the martial applications as well, since the movement from the center is what powered the martial applications. In addition, the immense healing benefits of Taiji are only fully realized when Taiji is practiced with some work in mind. Being a martial art, Taiji's "work" is to visualize the martial applications so that the mind does something as well. At higher levels still, the postures are used for healing of other people, and this cannot be accomplished without the martial applications. Eventually, the form is to be done with the mind empty, but by that time, the body has gone through the motions so many times and the mind has gone through its motions so many times, that both movement and mind work have become subconcious, happening on their own without interference from the concious mind.

*********

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yes I second you, Braden.
My bagua teacher places heavy emphasis on acquiring a good body structure and unification of the body...for him, applications are worth only once you have learned to unite the body and mind and can keep a mobile yet structured body throughout the form...after you have learned how to move that way, the movement can generate many applications...for him, unification of the body structure gives birth to the applications, but the contrary cannot happen...
So in the view in which I am taught, Fu Pow, I have to say "yes, you can" ;)

[gazza99]

For me once I learn the martial apps for a form(old yang for ex.), they serve as a long term memory link for the form itself. Sometimes Ill do other forms or neglect a certain one for awhile, but If I know the apps. I can remember the postures more readily.
Of course after I recall them I do not need think about them the whole time during the form. Sometimes I visulize them on purpose, sometimes I dont, However its almost hard not to see some apps while doing it.
I am not really conciously thinking about the apps. Its hard to describe, does anyone have a better way to put the feeling?
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Kumkuat]

applications as in fighting applications or the non fighting applications? If it's the non fighting applications, yeah you have to know it. For example, when I'm closing (lu or an), I imagine that I'm rowing some resistance towards me. When I'm opening (peng and ji) I imagine I'm rowing a resistance against me. For fighting applications, it doesn't really matter I think.

[Shooter]

Are there really such things as techniques/applications? IMO, no...not per se. Only movement.

What is the purpose of your movement? Opening and closing happen naturally.

Do you know the application of mopping a floor? Pushing a car out of a ditch? Planing a door?

How much attention do you pay to your movement when you wash a plate? Is it all arm movement, or do you connect and involve the whole body?

Relaxation and the refinement of your movement and energy management is the focus of Tai Chi form, but it transposes purpose.

Martial play, and its applications for the real are no different. Just movement. Peng is the power. Yi is the key.

Yi applies to all aspects of the training. In terms of purpose, it applies to what you're attending to at the moment whether you're washing dishes or practicing form. It can also apply to focusing on the particulars of that purpose (finding someone else's center, directing your energy, separating the energies in your form, etc).

In answer to your question; Yes. It all depends on your presence of mind/intention. The only “application” then, is moving your body with good efficiency and energy management.

[les paul]

My Sifu always taught function over form. Now I teach this way. The body and mind will always learn faster and better when they both understand what is needed to be done.
Not everyone realisticly does the same movements or applictions the same.

What everyone of us does do the same, is issue jing.

For example. Peng jing is "peng jing" no matter what application the posture demands. We all issue Peng jing the same. What varies is at what level/amount/skill we issue it.

My Sifu always looked at the posture as being a certain jing not so much as a specific application. He believed(as do I) that learning the fuction(i.e. how a posture creates jing (plus, how to apply them)then the form of the postuer will come naturally.

Hence, he didn't teach the actual forms untill you could perform the required jing of the postures.

This is really quite the oppisite of what is usally taught nowdays.

Just some thoughts

"who just called me spanky?"

[honorisc]

Elaborate on what you mean by internal forms. When your in an Internal martial art they are likely merely referred to as forms and internal forms might would refer to qigong.

As far as Taijiquan forms~ since it was after such a class that you had your serious question, Yes. That might be why the form are made up of movements with picturesq(u)e names. you can pet a (wild) horse's mane, but you might be rigid to try a block or a deflection or simultaneous blocks or simultaneous focused push and block... yet if you continue to pet the wild horse's mane you Can do These things.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[wujidude]

Having said that, learning a specific application serves two main purposes in my training: where the yi/intent is directed, and a test for whether the movement/alignment is correct. It also serves a third purpose as a specific example of the "movement principle" behind the specific posture/transition/posture. It's important to remember that, in sparring or street fights, the approach of "opponent does A so I must respond with B" doesn't work under the time and emotional pressure of close-in confrontation.

If it's a taijiquan long form you're talking about, different teachers will take different approaches. Certainly within the first three months of even a large group class you should be shown basic applications for at least the more important postures. But I think it's really hard to learn taijiquan or any internal martial art very well in a large group class. Another factor that may be at work is if you are learning a "beginning" form in a large group setting; some teachers I've worked with save applications work for the intermediate or advanced students.

Yet another factor may be the setting of a large group class; you can show an application for a move anywhere, but to really "feel" and practice it with power, an unobstructed space hopefully with mats on floors/walls or at least the grass in a park is helpful.

Speaking of which, I think it's important that the student know how to fall, and that either the teacher teaches that or encourages students to do it. I practice falls mostly on mats but from time to time get out on grass or pavement (in old clothes) and take some falls. This introduces a little reality into my training (for example, in the event of being taken by surprise to the ground). It also makes me a safer "fall guy" when training partners are practicing throwing and sweeping applications all the way through with at least a little power.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Yeah, but then also what you learn in internal arts is not the form, but the internal work behind the form...that is what makes the difference between those who look like they do taiji, and those who do taiji (or bagua, or xingyi, or whatever)...both can look very similar from the outside, but the difference of work which is invisible or only for a very experienced art makes all the difference between an empty form and a solid one...for me, even the form can not by themselves teach you the internal work, they are the means, but no the goal...
For example, when I managed to learn (in my dreams heheheh) the twisting jing of bagua using a specific form, I do not care if it's a block, a qinna, an attack, after you do not even care about the form that helped you grasp the concept, it has become useless...
I'm still convinced applications are great and useful but by no mean necessary...
My opinion :D

[grounded]

I think we all know the different areas of focus for internal arts-

meditation
health
combat

learn everything you can about the one that matters to you, and focus on it in your form.

Being primarily a martial artist, I focus primarily on defending myse lf and my family through the various apps. You can even focus on different apps for seperate repetitions.

Apart from that, I think your form becomes more focused and balanced when you are aware of WHAT you are doing. Ask yourself why you twist your hee l at extension the same way a boxer does, or why so many motions contain possible defense followed by a throw or palm strike.

we're not doing ballet here, people
this is fighting

I genuinely respect the folks who practice for other reasons, but for me I can't understand learning a fighting art and not learning how to fight! ;)

[HuangKaiVun]

What does your SIFU think, Fu-Pow?

True traditional Taijiquan stylists are VERY martially oriented.

[Fu-Pow]

My teacher is very open to showing us applications. But it would very laborious if we went through every posture in the form and said "what's this for what's this for." Besides most moves have several applications.

What made me think of this question is that I asked my teacher about certain openings and closings and whether their are certain rules governing these openings and closings.

He said that it depended on the posture. That there were no concrete rules, per se. You might have left arm opening, right leg closing, right arm opening left leg closing. You could have right and left arms opening and left leg closing, right leg opening. ETC, ETC, ETC.

So it seems to me that unless you know how the movement is applied, you are not going to know what is supposed be opening and closing.

On a side note, someone made a good point that at the highest level there is no form. But for us begginners the forms serve as a platform to get to that level. For Taiji understanding the opening/closing aspect of the forms seems to be the most important part.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[HuangKaiVun]

Sounds like your teacher IS trying to tell you what the martial applications of the forms are, Fu-Pow.

Just keep on doing what you're doing. It'll become clear after a while.

[grounded]

it takes a long time to describe all the apps,
but regardless of how many you know, DO THEM!
In some arts such as wrestling there are really only a handful of techniques for any situation, so you just do them over and over. This is not a shortcoming for such arts, as what works is used and the rest is neglected. Similarly, there may be certain moves your teacher will emphasize in the long run that really work well. Of course push hands helps too........

I find that working with artists of different styles with light contact can teach you alot about how to use each move for what. I'm not saying to speculate, but many of these are self evident once you have done enough applications. Also practicing the form in its entirety (once you can do it relaxed) quicker will make the Jin more obvious.

:eek: ı

[honorisc]

If you Focus on the application (told or discerned) you might miss the form /technique.

Grounded, one does Not have to Try, to Do.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Shooter]

Golden Rooster is a Standing Post posture, is a knee-strike, is a check to a leg-kick, is a Third Corner in clinch, is a counter to a foot-sweep, is a Standing Post posture.

Press can jam the shot, hit the center, close the door/bar the opponent's attempt at getting to the body, break the root, or plane a door with a 2-handed plane.

You Ward-off and Roll-back when you mop a floor or cut wood with a 2-man saw.

You can't help yourself....it's all Tai Chi.
:cool: