How many Black Tiger Systems are There ?

[Firehawk4]

I have herd of Fu Jow Pai , Shantung Black Tiger , Gansu Black Tiger, Wong Cheung Hak Fu Mun Black Tiger , Toi San Black Tiger , and Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger . Are there any more ? And how do they relate to one another ? Are there any books or video tapes on Black Tiger ?

[WinterPalm]

There are videos on our website!

Check out the link in my profile.

Under videos...pay attention to the rolling black tiger set. Sifu tells me this is where the stark differences between the earlier sets and the advanced sets (of which this is one) which highlights the flavour of our style very well.
There is also a very modified version of the iron rings on there which is a set designed specifically for iron rings of which I have never heard of being in any other system.
Those are unique things to ours that I can name.

Enjoy!

[David Jamieson]

There is also modern shaolin black tiger.

For the most part, they are wholly unrelated.

Most of these styles do not have deeply traceable lineages or histories and are compilations drawn from other styles.

The style i learned from winterpalms sifu is closer to hung gar in flavour and has a great deal of cross over into that style as well as the fu jow pai black tiger. Opening gestures of the fu jow pai sets are identical, or were identical until they were changed a little bit a few years back.

in wong cheung's sil lum black tiger, the sets are drawn from shaolin as well of the southern traditions, are long and arduous in their content and have many techniques that are flavoured more like CLF. But also heavy flavour of Hung.

Having been exposed to these two over the last dozen or so years is a pretty good selection of black tiger content. the modern shaolin set is an obvious revival though and is simply there to fill a void for when reems of people go and ask for shaolin black tiger. well... they had to give them something! lol

anyway, it all shakes out into how can you use it and can you use it effectively, which more often than not has more to do with overall method where sets are meant to be transcended once you get a handle on how you move and the shape that is most suitable to your own way.

anyway, in short, they are mostly unrelated except for the shaolin connection which is also shared by both hung gar and choy li fut.

[jmd161]

:D




jeff:)

[WinterPalm]

Our advanced material has a very heavy dragon influence as well. The earlier beginner core hand sets have a very strong hung influence. Later on not so much as in the one above. The power generation in the beginning is very hung, as are the movements with the exception of a much more flowing technique in terms of redirection and footwork. The later sets, of which Gwun Hak Fu Da Kuen is one, offers the core fighting applications from the system of which Da Kune touches on. This set contains a lot of dragon movements and is done almost entirely from a fighting stance. The power generation, built up from earlier sets, is drawn into a much more subtle realm in this set as the movements are working on an internal type of mechanism.

As well, there are built in systems of teaching that allow for beginner to advanced versions of the sets to be done so that it takes quite a long time to see what the whole picture is. For instance there is a version of the opening on our site in which my Sifu does the iron rings...the opening done there is similar but not quite to the actual Toisan Black Tiger opening that we do. Subtleties like these allow one to comprehend things a little easier in the beginning.

It is like layers of meaning and application that build on one another and are tweaked every now and again to provide the rest of the material so that the set is done properly...much like advancing levels of iron palm.

[jmd161]

I have herd of Fu Jow Pai , Shantung Black Tiger , Gansu Black Tiger, Wong Cheung Hak Fu Mun Black Tiger , Toi San Black Tiger , and Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger . Are there any more ? And how do they relate to one another ? Are there any books or video tapes on Black Tiger ?


There are other Black Tiger styles, but they are not Chinese in origin. I myself have never heard of Gansu Black Tiger. Hak Fu Mun and Hark Fu Mun are the same just different spellings, it's even been spelled as Huk Fu Moon, Hak Fu Muhn etc..

The problem is there is so much BS out there you don't know what is legit or not anymore. Many people claim to teach Black Tiger, but what they teach is not Black Tiger. If you know anything about Black Tiger and it's history you will know that it is a sister style to Hung Gar. What fewer people know is that Wong Fei Hung knew Black Tiger through his fathers friendship with Soo Hak Fu. If you know Black Tiger and Hung Gar, you can see where the Black Tiger techniques are within Hung Gar. I won't go into which techniques are Black Tiger and which are not, because info like that is where the fake Hak Fu Mun people try to legitimize their BS.

There are exact Black Tiger techniques found in Hung Gar not similar. If you know Black Tiger's flavor and signature trademarks, it will jump right out at you. If you don't...then you will believe the techniques called Black Tiger within Hung Gar are them, which is not the case. If you really know Hung Gar's flavor then you will also know that these techniques are different from Hung's flavor, but may not realize it's Hak Fu Mun. I won't go into who's Black Tiger is real or legit or not, that's not my place. Just wanted to share a little info on the situation.

I'm from the Wong Cheung lineage of Hak Fu Mun.


jeff:)

[Firehawk4]

Gansu Black Tiger was mentioned in Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazines Annaversery Magazine 100 styles in Chinia they also mentioned a Emie Black Tiger style . There is Black Tiger Patterens in Leung Tings Book Five Pattern Hung Kuen that is supposed to come from Hak Fu Mun Black Sect .I herd that Shantung Black Tiger was created by masters of south Chinia by taking some of the best techniques from Hark Fu Moon and mixing them with Northern Kuen i would imagine Long Fist Styles . That would mean that Shantung Black Tiger was created by Masters of South Chinia Shantung Black Tiger is considered a Kun Tao style the Master of this style is from Indonesia where he wrote the Shantung Black Tiger book with Don F. Draeger . There seems to be alot of people who have claimed to have learned the Shangtung Black Tiger and they try to teach it like those Shaolin Do people there was even a guy who taught the Shangtung Black Tiger here in Dayton Ohio he had a school from the late 1970s to about 1996 I called this guy on the phone and it appears that he had his teacher teach him the style from the book that Don F. Draeger had wrote back in 1976 now i can see him trying to learn this style from the book for himself to practice and learn i do this myself but i dont go around and open a school and teach other people and claim to be a master of the style in otherwords he should not be claiming to be a Master of the Shantung Black Tiger just because he learned it from a book and then to open a school and teach people is abbssurd . But i myself do try to practice the Shantung Black Tiger from the book but this is just for myself i dont go around and teach people and claim to be a sifu or Master of the style that would be abssurd . since there are no teachers of this style or any Black Tiger taught were i live i just practice from the Shantung Black Tiger book the best i can for myself I do the same thing with Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist from those books on it .If they really wanted to have real skill and teach the Shantung Black Tiger they would try and go to Indoneasia and learn from those Masters there that teach it but myself i just learn bits and pieces of Shantung Black Tiger from the book .

[jmd161]

Gansu Black Tiger was mentioned in Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazines Annaversery Magazine 100 styles in Chinia they also mentioned a Emie Black Tiger style . There is Black Tiger Patterens in Leung Tings Book Five Pattern Hung Kuen that is supposed to come from Hak Fu Mun Black Sect .I herd that Shantung Black Tiger was created by masters of south Chinia by taking some of the best techniques from Hark Fu Moon and mixing them with Northern Kuen i would imagine Long Fist Styles . That would mean that Shantung Black Tiger was created by Masters of South Chinia Shantung Black Tiger is considered a Kun Tao style the Master of this style is from Indonesia where he wrote the Shantung Black Tiger book with Don F. Draeger . There seems to be alot of people who have claimed to have learned the Shangtung Black Tiger and they try to teach it like those Shaolin Do people there was even a guy who taught the Shangtung Black Tiger here in Dayton Ohio he had a school from the late 1970s to about 1996 I called this guy on the phone and it appears that he had his teacher teach him the style from the book that Don F. Draeger had wrote back in 1976 now i can see him trying to learn this style from the book for himself to practice and learn i do this myself but i dont go around and open a school and teach other people and claim to be a master of the style in otherwords he should not be claiming to be a Master of the Shantung Black Tiger just because he learned it from a book and then to open a school and teach people is abbssurd . But i myself do try to practice the Shantung Black Tiger from the book but this is just for myself i dont go around and teach people and claim to be a sifu or Master of the style that would be abssurd . since there are no teachers of this style or any Black Tiger taught were i live i just practice from the Shantung Black Tiger book the best i can for myself I do the same thing with Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist from those books on it .If they really wanted to have real skill and teach the Shantung Black Tiger they would try and go to Indoneasia and learn from those Masters there that teach it but myself i just learn bits and pieces of Shantung Black Tiger from the book .

Shantung Black Tiger is another art clouded in mystery. I've heard that story as well as others about it. I know there is a guy in Miami that claims to teach it, but only to closed door disciples and after yrs of learning Northern Shaolin from him. I really don't know what it looks like other than what I've seen in pics from books.

Like my sifu says some are related somewhere down the line by people and exchange of info and techniques others just borrowed the name.

If it works for you i guess that's all that really matters!

p.s. There is a guy in your area that claims to teach Black Tiger he learned from a Fred Wu, which is my sifu's name. I asked my sifu about the guy to which my sifu replied I've only taught two black students and you being one the other was not in ohio and that was not the guys name.

jeff:)

[Firehawk4]

Is your teacher the same Fred Wu at this website this is the Fred Wu that the guy in Dayton Ohio says he has lineage from . But the guy here in Dayton said he learned the Shangtung Black Tiger from a book and that his teacher taught him from the book his teacher was a student of Fred Wu and his teacher was a Black Guy . The Fred Wu at this website is suppossed to be dead here is the website .
http://www.drwukungfu.com/

[jmd161]

Is your teacher the same Fred Wu at this website this is the Fred Wu that the guy in Dayton Ohio says he has lineage from . But the guy here in Dayton said he learned the Shangtung Black Tiger from a book and that his teacher taught him from the book his teacher was a student of Fred Wu and his teacher was a Black Guy . The Fred Wu at this website is suppossed to be dead here is the website .
http://www.drwukungfu.com/


No my sifu is still very much alive.:D


I might have misread the guys info then because i remember him saying he learned Black Tiger from Fred Wu. If we are indeed talking about the same guy.


jeff:)

[Firehawk4]

I think the guys name was Taylor or Traylor his teacher was a black guy that had learned from the dead Fred Wu from that website . He has a website called the Black Tiger Fighting Society but i cant find the website but i do have his phone number written down somewhere in my house this guy claimed that he was a teacher of the Shantung Black Tiger he used to have a school and i used to drive by it all the time but he told me that he had his teacher teach him this style from Don F. Draegers book on Shantung Black Tiger and he would teach this at his school for years . There is a guy in Florida that also learnd from the same Black Teacher there is a picture of the Black teacher on the website let me see if i can find it .

[Firehawk4]

Here is the website this mentions the Dead Fred Wu and the Black teachers picture and name are on here to his name is Tyrone Jackson .
http://www.clearsilat.com/DrWu.html

[Firehawk4]

Scroll down to were it says Tyrone Jackson that is the Black teacher who taught the guy here the Shantung Black Tiger from Draegers book . It appears that the Clear guy says he teaches Northern Black Tiger kung Fu too.
http://www.clearsilat.com/SigungClear.html

[Firehawk4]

The Clear guy could have learned his Black Tiger from William DeThaurs a Silat and Kun Tao Master that is possible if not then he must have learned it from the Black teacher they learned from Draegers book .If they did indeed learn from the book they should not be teaching people the Shantung Black Tiger they should do like i do just learn it for myself in my mind i would never be qualified to teach any art that i learned from a book only if i learned from a master .

[jmd161]

Here is the website this mentions the Dead Fred Wu and the Black teachers picture and name are on here to his name is Tyrone Jackson .
http://www.clearsilat.com/DrWu.html


I must have missed it i didn't see his pic or name on that link anywhere...


I am like super tired and half sleep also:D



jeff:)

[jmd161]

Okay okay I see I couldn't get that link to work for me off the other link.


I agree with you totally about teaching, but not everyone shares our thoughts about honesty and doing things right!

If only this were a perfect world, but alas it's not...:(


Well, I commend him for telling you the truth. Most would never admit they learned that way. There were talks of my sifu doing some vids, if he decides to do so i would bet they'd be very good instructional vids. I really don't think he'll do them though he's very old school and wants to oversee all phases of training.

jeff:)

[jmd161]

There are a few Fu Jow Pai vids on YouTube under Tak Wah Eng, you can also see a couple of the vids i put up of Hak Fu Mun on there as well, I'm jmd161 there as well.


I also have a Tak Wah Eng vid here i could email you if you'd like to see it?


Hak Fu Mun is not as much tiger or fu jow usage as many would expect. We use just as much snake,monkey,crane,leopard,lion etc... as tiger. The form onYouTube is a longrange form called kam Kong Kune black tiger is very much a inclose fighting system, but we do address different ranges.

jeff:)